Speaker 1: It's I Do Part two and I'm one of your hosts,
Speaker 1: Jane Kramer. And usually on this podcast we are talking
Speaker 1: about people that are in their chapter two looking for
Speaker 1: love again after divorce. But what if the key to
Speaker 1: not getting divorced is ethical non monogamy. We're going to
Speaker 1: dive into this today. My guest is documenting her experience
Speaker 1: with an open marriage through her social media Openly Committed.
Speaker 1: Please welcome Danielle to the podcast. Danielle, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming on I Do Part two. We really
Speaker 1: appreciate you coming on. And you know, I have to
Speaker 1: say it's interesting because you know, we've got different hosts
Speaker 1: for different guests. And when I got sent your rundown,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is funny. I know why
Speaker 1: they picked me. I was like cuz I was like
Speaker 1: this girl was like huge joke. iHeart I like it.
Speaker 2: Why did they pick you? Now? I need to know.
Speaker 1: Well, so I my last husband very happily married now,
Speaker 1: but my ex husband was have multiple, multiple multiple affairs
Speaker 1: in our marriage, and so I have quite an opinion
Speaker 1: when it comes around when it comes to uh cheating.
Speaker 1: And you know, I've I've spoken to people before that
Speaker 1: have been in open relationships. And again, I just come
Speaker 1: from a place of I don't know how that works
Speaker 1: when I've been in something. But mine was so different, right,
Speaker 1: because mine was a lot of lying and deceit, and
Speaker 1: it seems like in an open marriage there is more
Speaker 1: communication around it.
Speaker 2: So there's I have a lot of opinions about cheating too.
Speaker 1: So okay, great, well let's start there. So let me
Speaker 1: let me let me hear your opinions on cheating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the definition of cheating is
Speaker 2: betrayal and is lying. And I think so often I've
Speaker 2: ended up talking to hundreds of people exploring open relationships
Speaker 2: for multiple reasons. And the thing that I've heard from
Speaker 2: people who've been cheated on is they look back on
Speaker 2: the periods of time where they were cheated on and
Speaker 2: they don't know what part was real and what what
Speaker 2: part to believe and what was true, And all of
Speaker 2: a sudden they're in a situation where they can't they
Speaker 2: doubt huge chunks of the relationship. And what a terrible, heartbreaking,
Speaker 2: untrusting place to be in. And I'd be curious, you know,
Speaker 2: how you how you felt after kind of going through
Speaker 2: a betrayal, And so I think when when my husband
Speaker 2: brought up the idea of an open relationship, and he
Speaker 2: brought up the idea about two to three months into dating, very.
Speaker 1: Early on, oh before even being married.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, we'd been dating for two months when
Speaker 2: he brought up the idea of exploring an open relationship.
Speaker 2: Neither of us had ever been in an open relationship before.
Speaker 2: We had no idea what we were doing. This is
Speaker 2: like twenty ten. You didn't have TikTok influencers and blogs
Speaker 2: about the topic back then, and so it was something
Speaker 2: that we were going to explore. But his reasoning for
Speaker 2: exploring an open relationship is that he had seen affairs
Speaker 2: destroy families, destroy people's confidence, and he wanted to affair
Speaker 2: proof our relationship. That was his initial reasoning for bringing
Speaker 2: up an open relationship in the first place. And so
Speaker 2: I think it can be a wonderful way to have
Speaker 2: transparency and truth in a relationship, but it does not
Speaker 2: work for everyone, and there are there are cheaters and
Speaker 2: open relationships too. Like being an open relationship is not
Speaker 2: carte blanche to cheat, We just define cheating differently, and
Speaker 2: we establish rules and boundaries that have to be equally
Speaker 2: respected the same way they wouldn't a monogamous relationship.
Speaker 1: For those that haven't followed along with your journey on
Speaker 1: social media, do you discuss the boundaries around an open
Speaker 1: relationship in your marriage?
Speaker 2: I do, yes. So we've had rules that have evolved
Speaker 2: over the years, and I don't think that there's a
Speaker 2: common rule set or agreement subset set that you know,
Speaker 2: every open relationship, every couple follows. They're always different. And
Speaker 2: so I think one of the things that we did,
Speaker 2: what we spent the first two years of our open
Speaker 2: relationship doing, is figuring out like, Okay, what are our rules,
Speaker 2: you know, are how are we going to define our rules?
Speaker 2: How do we define safe sex, how do we for
Speaker 2: each other and eventually with other people? How do we
Speaker 2: have really difficult conversations, you know, how do we define cheating?
Speaker 2: I think that that one's really important. And then also
Speaker 2: setting the goals of like what do we eventually want
Speaker 2: this relationship to be? And I think that happens no
Speaker 2: matter what relationship you're in, but you're if you're in
Speaker 2: an open relationship, you really have to have those conversations
Speaker 2: because you're essentially deciding to not follow the set standard
Speaker 2: monogamous guidebook that society and culture and religion have kind
Speaker 2: of set for us.
Speaker 1: Have you seen the movie Splitsville? I haven't got to Johnson.
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, I really really want to. I definitely need.
Speaker 1: To, Okay, because it is, you know, about having an
Speaker 1: open marriage. So Dakota Johnson's marriage, her husband wanted, you know,
Speaker 1: to have this open marriage. But it's interesting because they
Speaker 1: don't They don't tell the other person that they're having sex.
Speaker 1: They just kind of assume, like when he goes away
Speaker 1: for his work trip in New York, that he's most
Speaker 1: likely with someone. But it created this no I wouldn't
Speaker 1: want to say, well, I guess jealousy, but also this
Speaker 1: insecurity that he's choosing to leave our home to go
Speaker 1: be with someone else. So do those feelings come up
Speaker 1: when your husband wants to go be with somebody else?
Speaker 2: So you're talking to me after I've been doing this
Speaker 2: for fifteen years, So I think that's a pretty big
Speaker 2: difference between you know, our agreements and the way that
Speaker 2: I felt early on in our relationship when we were
Speaker 2: new not only to being open, but also like new
Speaker 2: to our relationship. Sure, and you know, we had a
Speaker 2: lot more of those those insecurities and jealousies. I experienced
Speaker 2: a ton of jealousy the first couple of years of
Speaker 2: opening up. And now, you know, we've been together for
Speaker 2: fifteen years. We've been open that entire time. I talk
Speaker 2: abouts now as we've had phases. We've had phases of polyamory,
Speaker 2: phases being open, we've had phases of monogamy. You know,
Speaker 2: but we've been together for fifteen years and so we
Speaker 2: you know, are the types of jealousy that I experience
Speaker 2: are very different. I wish I'd seen the movie so
Speaker 2: that I could right.
Speaker 1: But for you, like in the beginning, did it make
Speaker 1: you well? First of all? Like in the very beginning
Speaker 1: when he brought it up, did that make you sad?
Speaker 1: Or was it something where you thought, Okay, I like
Speaker 1: this guy. I'm going to fall in line with what
Speaker 1: he wants to do, because it was or is that
Speaker 1: something that you wanted to do?
Speaker 2: No? I was, I was like, what the fuck? Oh wait,
Speaker 2: I thought I'd met my guy. I thought I'd met
Speaker 2: the one, my prince in shining armor, except you know
Speaker 2: modern times. So we were on a ski slope, right
Speaker 2: and I, you know, I met this guy. We had
Speaker 2: instant chemistry. We had this sort of whirlwind, wonderful, you know,
Speaker 2: like rom come worthy first couple of months of dating,
Speaker 2: and then I feel like he you know, I feel
Speaker 2: like this idea exploring an open relationship came out of nowhere.
Speaker 2: And what's so funny is like the words he used
Speaker 2: were probably were probably along the lines of like, Hey,
Speaker 2: I have this idea. It's something I want to explore.
Speaker 2: Would you be open to considering an open relationship. It
Speaker 2: wasn't an ultimatum. It wasn't even a like I want
Speaker 2: to do this. It was let's explore this. And even
Speaker 2: that made me feel angry, pissed off, embarrassed, Like, all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, I tell my friends that this guy
Speaker 2: that I thought was the one now I want to
Speaker 2: explore an open relationship.
Speaker 1: Get to me, that'd be a huge red flag. I'd
Speaker 1: be like, oh, so you just want to cheat on me,
Speaker 1: So then why have you in a relationship?
Speaker 2: Yeah, But that's where I started to like, that's absolutely
Speaker 2: where I started to I think where I started to
Speaker 2: come around to the idea is that it was something
Speaker 2: that we were just exploring. We spent a year, You're
Speaker 2: just doing research and talking about it, and you know, like,
Speaker 2: what could this look like. And I understood his why,
Speaker 2: which was, like, you know, he wanted to affair proof
Speaker 2: the relationship. That's where it started for him. And at
Speaker 2: that time, I didn't have a why, Like I didn't
Speaker 2: have a very clear why I want to be in
Speaker 2: an open relationship. I do now. I'm bisexual. I enjoy
Speaker 2: dating both men and women. I find this incredible level
Speaker 2: of freedom. I feel like my partner enables me to
Speaker 2: have a bigger life than I would if it was,
Speaker 2: you know, just just the two of us. I feel
Speaker 2: like we've created a relationship that's really tailored to us
Speaker 2: and nobody else. And I see, you know this, I
Speaker 2: see this open relationship of ours is now kind of
Speaker 2: more of a mindset than anything else. You know, we're
Speaker 2: we're going to figure things out. We're going to change
Speaker 2: as our desires do, as our libidos do, as our
Speaker 2: interest and other people do. Is the things that we
Speaker 2: want to explore do, and our relationship has enough flexibility
Speaker 2: to kind of evolve as we do. I couldn't have
Speaker 2: told you that fifteen years ago. I was like, what right?
Speaker 1: Who was he? The first person to step out though?
Speaker 1: And I guess it's not stepping out when you're technically
Speaker 1: signing up for it, but.
Speaker 2: We took baby steps. It's interesting I think seeing open
Speaker 2: relationships portrayed in films and movies and so film and
Speaker 2: TV nowadays, and even on social media, and also so
Speaker 2: many people I've talked to in this process because I
Speaker 2: think people are like, Okay, great, let's explore an open relationship.
Speaker 2: And then it's like they go and have a threesome
Speaker 2: or like they go and like have a relationship with
Speaker 2: someone else for a weekend. I was like, wow, it
Speaker 2: feels like you're jumping into a deep end with sharks.
Speaker 2: In our case, we talked about it. I kissed someone,
Speaker 2: We talked about it. He kissed someone, We talked about it.
Speaker 2: I went on a date and didn't do anything, and
Speaker 2: we talked about it, and then he did, and then
Speaker 2: we talked about it. And we went to a swingers
Speaker 2: club but didn't do anything, and we talked about Then
Speaker 2: we went to swingers club and did a few things,
Speaker 2: then talked about it. You know, there was for us,
Speaker 2: it was definitely a progression and of baby steps where
Speaker 2: we were constantly checking in, Okay, how do you feel
Speaker 2: how even little things like he kissed someone? It was like,
Speaker 2: how do I feel about the fact that he kissed someone?
Speaker 2: And I had to actually go through that entire process.
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, him kissing someone else doesn't take
Speaker 2: away from him kissing me. He had an experience that
Speaker 2: kind of brought him joy, and how do I feel
Speaker 2: about that? You know? And so I think that with
Speaker 2: taking those baby step per aggressions, we were able to
Speaker 2: kind of tiptoe into is does this make you uncomfortable? Okay?
Speaker 2: Do we want to stop or do we want to
Speaker 2: figure something out? Yeah? I don't recommend for anyone opening
Speaker 2: up a relationship. I don't recommend, you know, immediately going
Speaker 2: off and having another relationship with another person. I feel
Speaker 2: like that's too much, too soon, But it definitely happens,
Speaker 2: plenty of people do it.
Speaker 1: How much of your fifteen years has it been monogamous?
Speaker 2: Would you think, Oh, that's a good question, about two
Speaker 2: years in total, maybe two and a half out of
Speaker 2: the fifteen.
Speaker 1: Were those happy years or were those more volatile years?
Speaker 1: Or I'm curious, like what the difference between when you
Speaker 1: were monogamous and when you guys were with other partners?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that so, as I said, fifteen years
Speaker 2: of our relationship there have been. So we had a
Speaker 2: phase of monogamy when my son was born, because I
Speaker 2: don't know if you're a parent or your parent.
Speaker 1: Yes, I've got three kids. We've got three kids and
Speaker 1: a step son.
Speaker 2: So you probably know that when your kids are young,
Speaker 2: you don't have enough time to like sleep or date
Speaker 2: each other.
Speaker 1: I'm exhausted exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like, I I'm if I can get dinner
Speaker 2: on a table like half the nights of the week.
Speaker 2: So that phase of monogamy I think was just kind
Speaker 2: of natural. You know. There was all We're so excited
Speaker 2: to be parents. We wanted to spend so much time together,
Speaker 2: so much time with our son, and I think we
Speaker 2: kind of woke up one day and we're like, oh,
Speaker 2: we've been monogamous for a year. Cool, that was it.
Speaker 2: It was not a big deal.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm astericking real fast, so I don't forget.
Speaker 1: How do you what do you tell how old your kid?
Speaker 2: Our son is eleven, my daughter elevens sweet?
Speaker 1: Sweet? So when they're older, is this something that you
Speaker 1: guys are going to tell them? Because obviously your stuff
Speaker 1: is on social media, so they're going to be watching
Speaker 1: social media. So is it something that I mean, have
Speaker 1: you talked to them about it? Or are you going
Speaker 1: to or what are you going to say? And then
Speaker 1: what are you I guess modeling then for what a
Speaker 1: marriage looks like and for their values and opinions around
Speaker 1: it all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so my son already knows. We told him about
Speaker 2: a year and a bit ago. It was. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was a pretty easy casual conversation at that time.
Speaker 2: And I think I think there's a couple of things. So,
Speaker 2: first of all, my children know better than anyone else
Speaker 2: how much my husband and I love each other. They
Speaker 2: see it every day and they're raised in the household
Speaker 2: with it every day, and they do not see us
Speaker 2: dating other people. And it sounds like you're divorced.
Speaker 1: I'm married now. Oh, you're married now, but you asked
Speaker 1: to a lovely man, Yes, the man that cheated. I
Speaker 1: do have two kids with and then one with the new.
Speaker 2: How long did it take you to introduce your new
Speaker 2: partner to your existing kids?
Speaker 1: Oh? Man, let's see oct I met in October, November, December, January.
Speaker 1: But three and a half months.
Speaker 2: Oh, interesting, we actually waited. We wait longer than that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So if we're in serious relationships with someone else, which
Speaker 2: has only happened twice in our fifteen years.
Speaker 1: Oh, so you introduce them to people that you're with.
Speaker 2: We've introduced them as friends of friends.
Speaker 1: We got it, got it in using But.
Speaker 2: I mean, it takes a long time to introduce someone
Speaker 2: that's an important part of your life to your children.
Speaker 2: And it took us, you know, we waited I think
Speaker 2: five and then six months to introduce anyone to our kids.
Speaker 2: But when we told our son, and we told him like,
Speaker 2: Mom and we love each other very much, we're in
Speaker 2: an open relationship. What we have other people we really
Speaker 2: care about. We have other people that we have feelings for,
Speaker 2: and one of them you've met. And so then we
Speaker 2: were able to say, like this person who you've met
Speaker 2: in the past, who was introduced as a friend of
Speaker 2: the family, you know you had a great experience with
Speaker 2: that person, Like that's someone that mom and didn't care
Speaker 2: about as well. So I think it's we're pretty Oh
Speaker 2: it's funny. These feel like such hard conversations to have
Speaker 2: without a lot of content, without the entire context. But
Speaker 2: I think that when we tell our son what we're
Speaker 2: modeling to answer your question, like what do we model
Speaker 2: for our kids. We're very careful with what we tell
Speaker 2: them and when. What we're telling our son when he's ten,
Speaker 2: when he was ten, which is when we told him,
Speaker 2: will be a little bit different than the conversations we
Speaker 2: have with him when he's eighteen. Right when we introduce
Speaker 2: our children to people that we were dating, which again
Speaker 2: has only happened twice as a friend of a family member,
Speaker 2: because honestly, it's kind of true. It's true. It's someone
Speaker 2: like we care about, it's someone we would love to
Speaker 2: introduce to our children. But we're careful how we do that.
Speaker 2: The way that we talk to our children is about
Speaker 2: love and about relationships and about caring for people. We're
Speaker 2: not talking to our children about sex. We don't talk
Speaker 2: to about our children about our sex lives. It's not
Speaker 2: like we're going to talk to them about like sex
Speaker 2: lives with other people. Well, it's crazy, and I think
Speaker 2: that long term, the thing that I hope to model
Speaker 2: for my kids is that you know, we're in a
Speaker 2: relationship that works for us that took us a long
Speaker 2: time to figure out, that we constantly support each other
Speaker 2: through all these huge changes, and we're also kind of
Speaker 2: living pretty authentically and we figured out a relationship that
Speaker 2: allows us to do so. And I'm hoping that by
Speaker 2: living this authentically and like, by by creating the relationship
Speaker 2: that works for me, my kids will not only feel
Speaker 2: like they have permission to do so themselves, but they'll
Speaker 2: see it. They'll see that, oh, mom and dad did it.
Speaker 2: I can definitely do this too, no matter what that
Speaker 2: looks like for my kids.
Speaker 1: Okay, So what happens if you so these people that
Speaker 1: you have introduced your kids to obviously were someone that
Speaker 1: was they you said you were dating. What happens if
Speaker 1: you really catch feelings and you want to be with
Speaker 1: just them?
Speaker 2: I guess we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1: Is that something you guys have talked about or we.
Speaker 2: Have definitely talked about. It's only once where my husband
Speaker 2: was dating someone and we had the conversations like what
Speaker 2: if she lived with us? Like, okay, how would that
Speaker 2: look like? But it wasn't something she was interested in
Speaker 2: and could it happen? Yeah? But I guess there's also
Speaker 2: this thing, is like, if either of us fell in
Speaker 2: love with someone else and loved that person more than
Speaker 2: each other, would we go and be monogamous with that person?
Speaker 2: Probably not? I mean, we're in an open relationship. We've been.
Speaker 2: I know that people use the terms open relationship and polyamory.
Speaker 2: I tend to use them interchangeably. But if I was
Speaker 2: feeling if I was polyamorous, So if I was in
Speaker 2: a romantic, committed relationship with someone else as well as
Speaker 2: a romantic committed relationship with my husband, we would figure
Speaker 2: out how that works. It's hard for me to imagine
Speaker 2: leaving this incredible life that I've built with my husband
Speaker 2: and our kids and our family for someone else, given
Speaker 2: the fact that, for lack of a better word, I
Speaker 2: get to have both.
Speaker 1: Right. But here's my question, though, I guess, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure you hear this all the time too, is why
Speaker 1: be married at all? Then?
Speaker 2: I want it to be, But.
Speaker 1: You're not with that just that person marriage is if
Speaker 1: you I mean, I guess, let's I don't know the
Speaker 1: actual definition is, but to me, it's the married to
Speaker 1: one person, and you're I don't know, I mean, maybe
Speaker 1: that's the old school mentality with it, where it's like,
Speaker 1: I guess you're changing with the typical old school version
Speaker 1: of what a marriage is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is what we're doing, and I
Speaker 2: think you're seeing it. I think you're seeing it more
Speaker 2: and more nowadays. You're seeing a lot of people who,
Speaker 2: you know, feel like their gender is very fluid, their
Speaker 2: sexuality is very fluid. And so for someone who is
Speaker 2: expressing you know, bisexuality, pan sexuality and feels like they're
Speaker 2: you know, their generous fluid or they then also expected
Speaker 2: to only be in a monogamous married relationship as their goal.
Speaker 2: You know, I think that the constructs and the goals
Speaker 2: of relationships are going to look very different ten years
Speaker 2: from now for this upcoming generation. I think that I
Speaker 2: don't know about you, but I'm forty one, so I
Speaker 2: feel like I'm sort of in that in between phase
Speaker 2: between you know, my parents' generation and their definition of
Speaker 2: what a really great marriage looks like and what the
Speaker 2: next generation is going to look like. And I guess
Speaker 2: I guess an to flip it on, to turn this
Speaker 2: on its head. Do you think that a marriage is
Speaker 2: more than sexual exclusivity?
Speaker 1: Do I think a marriage is more than sexual exclusivity?
Speaker 2: Do you think that sexual exclusivity is the most important
Speaker 2: thing to marry.
Speaker 1: In a marriage? Yeah? Interesting, Okay, I do, But again
Speaker 1: that's my how I was. I guess brought up thinking that,
Speaker 1: I mean, my parents, it's got divorced because my dad cheated.
Speaker 1: You know, So what is marriage a man and a
Speaker 1: woman staying faithfully together. I guess that's my yeah, and
Speaker 1: then just to get the old school values around it all.
Speaker 1: But again, I've messed up many times where I'm not
Speaker 1: messed up, but I've I've had had multiple marriages because
Speaker 1: you know, I've been trying to find that marriage that
Speaker 1: I ideal, that I dreamt of as a as a
Speaker 1: gal girl. Right, So I've married the wrong people in
Speaker 1: that quest, but I do I personally could never open
Speaker 1: up a marriage, and I love having conversations with people,
Speaker 1: you know that have different differing views and opinions, and
Speaker 1: I see how it can work for other people. I personally,
Speaker 1: going through what I've been through with my ex, I
Speaker 1: don't see a world where, you know, Even Alan and
Speaker 1: I joked when we were in the car after watching
Speaker 1: splits Pille and I'm like, I don't mean to be
Speaker 1: closed off around it. I was like, but if you
Speaker 1: ever came to me with that, there's just no way
Speaker 1: in hell I would be okay with it, like ever.
Speaker 1: And he's like, He's like, same, you know, but you know,
Speaker 1: I do think there were some people that can work.
Speaker 1: And what are you know, for you guys, how has
Speaker 1: it made you guys stronger in your marriage having this
Speaker 1: open relationship?
Speaker 2: So I would say that right now you're seeing in
Speaker 2: the US, I think it's four to five percent of
Speaker 2: the US population rec is consensually non monogamous, So it
Speaker 2: means that like ninety five percent of the population is monogamous. Like,
Speaker 2: monogamy is what works for most people, and I think
Speaker 2: so to your question was like, kind of what makes
Speaker 2: it work for us?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, how how has it strengthened your marriage? You know,
Speaker 1: like what is what is the positive you know in it?
Speaker 2: I think the positive for us is I mean, I
Speaker 2: will say the level of transparency, you know, And I
Speaker 2: think that the kind of going back to the betrayal,
Speaker 2: right when I when my husband brought the idea and said,
Speaker 2: let's a fair proof the relationship, one of the biggest
Speaker 2: conversations that we had was like complete transparency and how
Speaker 2: important that was to us. And I think even if
Speaker 2: we decided to be monogamous, like even if we'd gone
Speaker 2: through this whole process of exploring an open relationship and
Speaker 2: then a couple of years in decide, you know what
Speaker 2: we want to be in monigamous, which is absolutely an
Speaker 2: option on the table. I think that we would have
Speaker 2: really learned a couple of things about our relationship anyway,
Speaker 2: which is how important transparency is. It's like, I do
Speaker 2: I want to know if you're attracted to someone, if
Speaker 2: you're hanging out with friends, Like I want to like
Speaker 2: have that level of detail because I care about you.
Speaker 1: Well, it's a level of deep honesty too, and like
Speaker 1: really knowing your partner because there's so many closeted people.
Speaker 1: I'm not just talking about their preferences, but when it
Speaker 1: comes to them not knowing what their fetishes are or
Speaker 1: they're you know what I mean, because they're too afraid
Speaker 1: to say anything exactly or be judged or yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean this is that again. Kind of going on
Speaker 2: that note, you know, I think in my mid thirties
Speaker 2: there were things that I wanted to try sexually, and
Speaker 2: because we have this level of transparency, it was really
Speaker 2: easy for me to go to my partner be like,
Speaker 2: so I have an idea.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, I could say how that'd be so liberating
Speaker 1: and open and free and then being so connected because deep,
Speaker 1: true transparency and honesty is the most connective thing for couples.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I feel like that at its foundation has
Speaker 2: nothing to do with the relationship style. Monogamous not monagamous,
Speaker 2: doesn't matter. I feel like I get to go to
Speaker 2: my partner and say there's something I want to try.
Speaker 2: I'm feeling this, I feel you know, I desire this.
Speaker 2: I'm not feeling desirable. I want to try this thing
Speaker 2: that's new. I want to be pushed outside of my
Speaker 2: comfort zone. And I think the difference with my partner
Speaker 2: and I is most of those things, like we will
Speaker 2: kind of figure out together, but there is this element
Speaker 2: which is like, okay, Danielle, Like, if I wanted to
Speaker 2: try something that my husband doesn't necessarily want to or
Speaker 2: doesn't enjoy, then I have an opportunity to go and
Speaker 2: explore that and experience that with someone else, and it
Speaker 2: could be a friend. Right. I'm a big outdoor enthusiast,
Speaker 2: a ski I love hiking. My husband does not. My
Speaker 2: husband needs a goal. He's like, oh, we're hiking. We're
Speaker 2: hiking from point A to point B. And I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: it's about flowers and the views and like experience. He's like, no,
Speaker 2: it'd be and so I get to have those experiences, yes,
Speaker 2: with my friends who will do all these things with me,
Speaker 2: but also I think some other in some other ways,
Speaker 2: you know, especially from you'd mentioned kind of like kinks
Speaker 2: and getting to explore things outside of your comfort zone.
Speaker 2: I get to do that. I get to I kind
Speaker 2: of have all of the options available to me, including
Speaker 2: the options that my husband might necessarily not be interested in.
Speaker 1: For sure. I have a question when you are exploring
Speaker 1: or want to explore something, do you I don't know,
Speaker 1: is there apps for this or do you? And then
Speaker 1: when when you do meet someone, do you say I
Speaker 1: am married? Like you have to go through all that
Speaker 1: right obviously that's probably a boundary for your husband.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, So total transparency on my dating profiles, I
Speaker 2: say I'm married, I'm not monogamous with two kids. And interestingly,
Speaker 2: I think because dating apps have changed so much that
Speaker 2: you do have dating apps that are dedicated to the
Speaker 2: non monogamous, polyamorous spaces now feel hashtag open. I believe
Speaker 2: even some of the other more standard ones have you know,
Speaker 2: have drop downs now where you can select interested in
Speaker 2: being open, nominogamous, et cetera. So I think that that's
Speaker 2: probably right now, the easiest way to kind of to
Speaker 2: find people that you're interested in dating. I also kind
Speaker 2: of meet a lot of people in real life. I
Speaker 2: think one of the things that the thing about being
Speaker 2: in an open relationship, I am not always dating. I
Speaker 2: think that there's this perception because I'm an oship, Oh
Speaker 2: my god, I must be having sex with everybody.
Speaker 1: I was like, No, such a good point.
Speaker 2: I still have enough like years and toast account everybody, Like, seriously, guys,
Speaker 2: it's not that crazy and so and I think, what's
Speaker 2: but I think what's interesting is that if I do
Speaker 2: meet someone, I have a connection, there's no limit to
Speaker 2: what that connection could be. You know. It could be
Speaker 2: it could be a just really intimate friendship. It could
Speaker 2: be a friend with benefits. It could be a comment,
Speaker 2: it could be a one night stand, it could be
Speaker 2: something that evolves into a deeper relationship. It's like, I'm
Speaker 2: very rarely just like on a mission to date and
Speaker 2: find someone. That's almost never happened. It's much more that
Speaker 2: I get to live life, and then the people that
Speaker 2: kind of come into my life, I get to say, like, oh,
Speaker 2: is this friends or is this you know, the entire
Speaker 2: rainbow of other options that are actually available bull to
Speaker 2: me because of my open relationship style.
Speaker 1: Got it? Okay, you have a okay question? Because this
Speaker 1: has happened. I know how this has happened to someone before.
Speaker 1: But someone had told a girlfriend of mine that they
Speaker 1: were in an open marriage, but come to find out
Speaker 1: they were not an open marriage, and that was just
Speaker 1: what he was saying. So and that's called cheating. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Have you run into that where people are on these
Speaker 1: sites and they're saying they're in the open marriage, but really,
Speaker 1: like you come to find out that this like the
Speaker 1: wife or the husband is actually not okay with it.
Speaker 2: I hate that this happens, and it happens so for
Speaker 2: anyone listening. So I'm openly committed. Up on social channels,
Speaker 2: I talk about my experiences, stories, recommendations for anyone exploring
Speaker 2: non monogamy. And I think that this one is a
Speaker 2: huge pet peeve of mine because I think that it
Speaker 2: really it doesn't endjusice to most people who are in
Speaker 2: an open relationship. It's I think it's one of the
Speaker 2: things because in open relationships and polyamory are trending. It's
Speaker 2: become something that people can say more easily when they're
Speaker 2: just cheating, and I hate that that's the case. It
Speaker 2: has happened to me twice where you know, would be like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is really really interesting. But I think when you've
Speaker 2: been in an open relationship for a long time, you
Speaker 2: can start to ask questions and then the red flags
Speaker 2: go up. So I will always ask someone like, hey, like,
Speaker 2: what are your boundaries? You know, what are the things
Speaker 2: that are discussed in your existing relationship? What are the
Speaker 2: agreements that you have with your partner? And the simple
Speaker 2: question is like, does your partner or you're on a
Speaker 2: date with me right now. I have dated people who
Speaker 2: have what's called a don't ask, don't tell policy in
Speaker 2: their relationship, and you just you just ask a couple
Speaker 2: more questions. And I have requested to like FaceTime or
Speaker 2: text message a partner before. But honestly, if I'm getting
Speaker 2: a spider sense that this person's not really open, I'm
Speaker 2: not going there. I'm not interested. And I think on
Speaker 2: the flip side of it, my husband has been on
Speaker 2: dates with women before and they ask to FaceTime me.
Speaker 1: And what is that like? Like? Truthfully, like you're like, hey, Carl,
Speaker 1: like what We're like, Yeah, like what there isn't like
Speaker 1: a percentage I know, the fifteen year. But okay, so
Speaker 1: now let's say at the fifteen year, there isn't like
Speaker 1: a little piece that's one percent little jealous.
Speaker 2: Oh oh, of course there is. No. Here's the You
Speaker 2: want to know what the arc is?
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I'm like, I know, it's like all fun
Speaker 1: and dandy and like you guys are like at this
Speaker 1: fifteen like happy and like.
Speaker 2: Fun and we're learning all kinds of new things, especially
Speaker 2: like and now I'm public on social media, like that's
Speaker 2: feeling jealousy in a whole different way, and all kinds
Speaker 2: of new issues and communication tactics. Okay, here's the arc.
Speaker 2: If my part, if my husband's going on a date.
Speaker 2: At first, like I'll help him get ready and I'll
Speaker 2: be like, oh, wear the blue shirt. You look really
Speaker 2: good in that one. Like okay, no, no, it's like
Speaker 2: you're like you help him get ready for the date.
Speaker 2: And then let's say this is all hypothetical, but all
Speaker 2: of these things have happened in different different situations. And
Speaker 2: then let's say he like he texts me like, oh
Speaker 2: the date's going really well. I'm excited. I'm be like yay.
Speaker 2: But then I'll be like, wait, hold on a second.
Speaker 2: If you're on a date, that means like I'm here
Speaker 2: with the kids and they're freaking out and I am
Speaker 2: seriously negotiating vegetables while you are on to have a
Speaker 2: nice date on a nice date, what the fuck? And
Speaker 2: then he'll message me like, hey, can you FaceTime her
Speaker 2: really quick? And I'll be like, Okay, no questions, ask
Speaker 2: no matter what I'm going through, of course I'm going
Speaker 2: to say yes to like a quick FaceTime. You'll do
Speaker 2: the face time, and then in my head I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: is she cuter? Is she prettier? Like it's like, what's happening?
Speaker 2: And then there'll be this thing is like, oh, my
Speaker 2: husband's on a date with a really attractive husband, Like woman,
Speaker 2: go him. And then I'll be like wait a minute.
Speaker 2: And then, for whatever reason the date doesn't work out.
Speaker 2: I'll have this moment of relief, and then I'll be
Speaker 2: a little bit annoyed, like I'm sorry, he's amazing. What
Speaker 2: the heck were you thinking? Not like continuing a date
Speaker 2: with him? So it's like every emotion you can imagine
Speaker 2: will prop.
Speaker 1: Child If you went to your husband and said I
Speaker 1: don't want to do this anymore. Do you think he
Speaker 1: would stay and not do it?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah, I think now we've been I think now
Speaker 2: if I went to him tomorrow and said, hey, I
Speaker 2: want to be monogamous, I think he would say yes. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: He struggles with how public I am right?
Speaker 1: This was my next question, how open is he about
Speaker 1: all of this? With with what you're sharing on social media?
Speaker 2: You know. The creating a TikTok was his idea originally
Speaker 2: was because I was like, oh, I'm gonna write a
Speaker 2: blog and share some of these stories. He's like, that's nice, honey,
Speaker 2: Like here it is, no one's reading a blog and
Speaker 2: make a TikTok. And so the first couple of videos
Speaker 2: went quite viral, and for the first four months of
Speaker 2: the TikTok, he was in a lot of my videos
Speaker 2: and like sharing his perspective as well. And I think
Speaker 2: the negativity and the criticism and just the hate comments
Speaker 2: became really overwhelming, and he said to me, like, I
Speaker 2: don't want this in my life, Like this is this
Speaker 2: is taking up too much mental load. The comments I
Speaker 2: get are awful and untrue, Like I'd like to not
Speaker 2: be included anymore. I was like, great. So all of
Speaker 2: his all of his videos that he was in are gone.
Speaker 2: And I think that he is a much more private
Speaker 2: person than I am, and that's even reflected in our
Speaker 2: agreements and how we communicate with one another. He yeah,
Speaker 2: So I think if I went to answer your question,
Speaker 2: if I went to him and said, Hey, I want
Speaker 2: to be monogamous, would you be okay with that? He'd
Speaker 2: say yes. If he came to me and said, oh,
Speaker 2: I want to be monogamous, I would probably really struggle.
Speaker 2: I am getting a lot of experiences and fulfillment, you know,
Speaker 2: being able to be open and being able to go
Speaker 2: and have these experiences that he doesn't enjoy. And right
Speaker 2: now I feel like I get to live all versions
Speaker 2: of myself. I get to be a wife, I get
Speaker 2: to be a wonderful mother, I get to this incredible partnership,
Speaker 2: and I get to be you know, I'm forty. I'm
Speaker 2: more confident in my looks and my body, and you
Speaker 2: know how I want to experiment and the things that
Speaker 2: I want to do and going after my own desires
Speaker 2: than I ever was in my twenties and thirties, and
Speaker 2: I would be I would really struggle to let go
Speaker 2: of that there are plenty of ways that I could
Speaker 2: express it with, just like friends and then non sexual
Speaker 2: partners in my life. But it's I feel like I
Speaker 2: don't have limits and I'm really enjoining that at the moment.
Speaker 1: What's better a man or a woman. I've never been
Speaker 1: with a woman, so I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't think this has to do with gender. I
Speaker 2: think it's just the individuals. I mean, I know that
Speaker 2: that's such like a cliche answer at this point in time,
Speaker 2: but very different, very fun in different ways. I love
Speaker 2: having both. I love that I get to experience both.
Speaker 2: I don't want to compare. I don't want to have
Speaker 2: to choose one or the other.
Speaker 1: Do you think if people were if more people followed
Speaker 1: in the path of an open marriage, there would be
Speaker 1: less divorce because of you know, the fact that the
Speaker 1: it's open, open menu for people if they want no.
Speaker 2: I actually don't think so. I would usually recommend an
Speaker 2: open relationship to most people, but I would recommend some
Speaker 2: of the mentality. I would recommend them open mentality, and
Speaker 2: I would probably recommend going through the process that most
Speaker 2: people who are in an open relationship have to go to.
Speaker 2: To just about any couple and Like I said at
Speaker 2: the beginning, it's like, define cheating. I think one of
Speaker 2: the number one recommendations I would give to any couple,
Speaker 2: whether the monogamous or not, define cheating is your partner
Speaker 2: texting someone else? Does that count as cheating? What about
Speaker 2: watching porn? What about messaging with an ex girlfriend? What
Speaker 2: about spending time with co workers late at night but
Speaker 2: they don't tell you about it? You know, what about
Speaker 2: sexy texting with a chat bot? Right? Oh my god,
Speaker 2: the fact that that comes up into my DMS all
Speaker 2: the time right now? Is wild people having open relationships
Speaker 2: with chat bots? That is happening. It's beyond my imagination.
Speaker 2: But like, those are all conversations really worth having, like
Speaker 2: define cheating, And then I think, figure out how to
Speaker 2: have difficult conversations because the number one thing that I
Speaker 2: think you have to do an open relationship is like
Speaker 2: what happens when you are attracted to someone else? What
Speaker 2: happens when you're jealous? How do you have difficult conversations?
Speaker 2: And usually there's like methods around it. Like my husband
Speaker 2: and I will sit down on a couch across from
Speaker 2: each other and say, like, okay, for the next hour,
Speaker 2: we're gonna have tough conversations and then we're good, and
Speaker 2: then we're gonna go and we're gonna snuggle and have
Speaker 2: a wonderful rest of the night, you know. And so
Speaker 2: I think that's an important thing for all couples to do.
Speaker 2: And if you're non monogamost, you have to do it.
Speaker 2: You have to figure out how to have those tough conversations.
Speaker 1: It's interesting you say, though, that you don't actually recommend it,
Speaker 1: or that you like you wouldn't be like, yeah, you should,
Speaker 1: you should try it, given you're so happy in it
Speaker 1: and fulfilled.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen the other side of it too often, I.
Speaker 1: Think, which is the people not following the boundaries or
Speaker 1: it the people leaving other people? Like, what is the
Speaker 1: part that is the biggest X for this?
Speaker 2: You know? It's interesting because you started this off with
Speaker 2: like affairs and cheating.
Speaker 1: Sorry, just no's I think.
Speaker 2: That I've seen because if you would have talked to
Speaker 2: me four years ago, long before I was on social media,
Speaker 2: I would have said, I do recommend an open relationship
Speaker 2: everyone because of how happy we are and how it's
Speaker 2: how wonderful it's been for us. Since then, I've talked
Speaker 2: to probably a thousand people about opening up their relationship,
Speaker 2: and I've talked to so many people who were hurt
Speaker 2: in the process us because they felt like they were
Speaker 2: being cheated on even though they had agreed to it.
Speaker 2: But again, it was would I recommend it. I would
Speaker 2: recommend it to anyone who who feels like they can
Speaker 2: figure out what it takes in their relationship to have
Speaker 2: freedom and commitment at the same time, because I think
Speaker 2: a lot of long term relationships. I don't know about you,
Speaker 2: but like, the one of the things that I love
Speaker 2: about my marriage is it's so stable, It's so structured,
Speaker 2: like there's so much deep trust. Our foundation is rock solid.
Speaker 2: And I think because we have that rock solid foundation,
Speaker 2: it also means there's not that much mystery, there's not
Speaker 2: that much sort of butterflies in your stomach. The romanticism
Speaker 2: disappears and dissipates after a while. It takes a lot
Speaker 2: of effort to have romance once you have a really
Speaker 2: stable environment. I think one of the things in an
Speaker 2: open relationship, kind of going back to the other question
Speaker 2: of the benefits for me personally, is an open relationship
Speaker 2: is how we have to say I did to have
Speaker 2: a strong, stable, foundation of a committed, trusting relationship, but
Speaker 2: then allow each other to have the mystery and excitement,
Speaker 2: the butterflies, the unknowing and instability outside of our marriage,
Speaker 2: so that we kind of get to have both in
Speaker 2: our lives. Yeah, and I think that there are a
Speaker 2: lot of ways that a couple can achieve that. Some
Speaker 2: couples who are monogamous, it's role play. Other couples it's
Speaker 2: like the one crazy vacation they do a year. There
Speaker 2: are a lot of ways to have that balance of
Speaker 2: kind of stability and structure and mystery and surprise in
Speaker 2: a relationship, and an open relationship isn't the only way
Speaker 2: to go about doing so, but it's I think the
Speaker 2: way that has worked the best for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting too, d Yeah, that you say about
Speaker 1: the you know people saying, well, I said, you know,
Speaker 1: he could do it, and then he did it. Now
Speaker 1: it feels like cheating because I think many women might
Speaker 1: fall in line with being like, yeah, no, that sounds great,
Speaker 1: but when it actually happens, it's it feels like a betrayal.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I wrote a little bit about this at one point,
Speaker 2: but I when I was opening up a relationship, I
Speaker 2: got to a point where I was said, Okay, I
Speaker 2: think I'm ninety five percent certain I want to try
Speaker 2: an open relationship, and at that point in time, you
Speaker 2: just have to take the leap and find out. And
Speaker 2: I think that leap can be really scary because you've
Speaker 2: had all the conversations, you've figured out all the agreements,
Speaker 2: you know how you're going to communicate, you've defined cheating,
Speaker 2: and then you take the first step, and you never
Speaker 2: know how that first step is going to go. It
Speaker 2: might feel like cheating. You might have this thing happen
Speaker 2: like and all of a sudden, your entire body is
Speaker 2: telling you this isn't right. I can't do this, I
Speaker 2: don't want to do this anymore. Yeah, it's okay, that's
Speaker 2: absolutely okay, now you know. And I used to back
Speaker 2: and you're like, okay, this is the really Now monogamy
Speaker 2: is what works for me now I know.
Speaker 1: Right, And I think, like you said, it all comes
Speaker 1: back to the honesty because I remember one time and
Speaker 1: this might have classified me as an open relationship. I
Speaker 1: don't know, but where my ex husband, I said, I
Speaker 1: don't care, like I if you end up cheating on
Speaker 1: me again, like I just need you to tell me.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to divorce you, like, I just need
Speaker 1: you to be honest because the main thing in the
Speaker 1: end for me was all it was never about the act.
Speaker 1: It was about the lie. Like and that was what
Speaker 1: killed us in the end, was never the act, always
Speaker 1: the lie. And so you know, I think you know
Speaker 1: you're having tough conversations. I'm sorry people because they don't
Speaker 1: agree with your way of living in your marriage. People
Speaker 1: come on and be hateful. I hate that. Again. I
Speaker 1: might not agree with your choices, but I love that
Speaker 1: you that were able to have a conversation. I think
Speaker 1: that's what's so great about it. And you know, you're
Speaker 1: you're sharing your life and what works for you and
Speaker 1: helping people online. So where can our listeners find you
Speaker 1: and follow along in that journey? And kindness? People be
Speaker 1: kind when you follow along because listen, it's like everyone's
Speaker 1: putting our you know, ourselves out there and we don't
Speaker 1: have to agree, but you can still be kind.
Speaker 2: Definitely you can find me it openly committed. So Nielle
Speaker 2: openly committed.
Speaker 1: Perfect title, too perfect name on.
Speaker 2: There across all channels. Do you mind if I ask
Speaker 2: if of all the things that I just talked about
Speaker 2: and kind of like, what I think it takes to
Speaker 2: make an open relationship work? And I have this like
Speaker 2: open mentality. What one of the what's one of the
Speaker 2: things from what I've discussed today that you feel like
Speaker 2: would benefit either you or any monogamous couple kind of
Speaker 2: based on what we've discussed.
Speaker 1: I think the having that again, that real deep transparency,
Speaker 1: and I think being able to sit down and just
Speaker 1: be like, what do you like? What do you and
Speaker 1: having that conversation you know, because I don't. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess me and my husband have talked about that,
Speaker 1: but it's it can be an intimate and uncomfortable conversation,
Speaker 1: you know, and vulnerable. Yeah. So I think, you know,
Speaker 1: just sitting down with the with your partner and just
Speaker 1: having full transparency of what sexually you would like and
Speaker 1: how that can open up your marriage how you both
Speaker 1: want it to open up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: But I think you're beautiful and wonderful and thank you
Speaker 1: for coming on.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. This is very fun.
Speaker 1: Thanks Danielle for your vulnerability and sharing what your unique
Speaker 1: love story has looked like. This has been an eye
Speaker 1: opening conversation. Are you contemplating a non traditional relationship in
Speaker 1: your chapter two. Starting to date and need some advice,
Speaker 1: call us or email us. All the info is in
Speaker 1: the show notes. Follow us on socials. Make sure to
Speaker 1: rate and review the podcast. I do part two at
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio podcast, where falling in love is the main objective