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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, how are you today?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great, Paul? How about you?

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Speaker 3: I am hanging in there. What's going on?

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Speaker 1: Well? My family and I do a big vacation every year.

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Speaker 1: I make them go to places where I either am

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Speaker 1: writing a book currently or want to write a book about,

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Speaker 1: and so they have a little choice. Unfortunately, and I

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Speaker 1: would say a few months ago, we went to Cape Cod.

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Speaker 1: Have you been to Cape Cod before?

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Speaker 3: Nope? Never?

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, that is a definite road trip. And the

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Speaker 1: episode that we're getting ready to talk about is in

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Speaker 1: Cape Cod. So I went to school in Boston University.

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Speaker 1: Loved it, loved Massachusetts. I've been to the Berkshire's, I've

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Speaker 1: been you know, all over the place. And my kiddos

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Speaker 1: had never been to Boston or anywhere before, and so

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Speaker 1: I said, let's go to kipe Cod. And I have

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Speaker 1: to ask you about an odd experience, probably about five

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Speaker 1: years into me really really writing about true crime and

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Speaker 1: sort of the thinking about it and you know, processing

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Speaker 1: what happens crime scenes, when I would go into deserts

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Speaker 1: or rural areas, I started thinking, this would be a

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Speaker 1: really good place for somebody to hide a body. You

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Speaker 1: ever thought about that before? Not that I want to

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Speaker 1: hide them. I don't want to hide a body everybody,

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Speaker 1: But I'm just saying, you know, like where you look

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Speaker 1: at it and go it's isolated. It checks a lot

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Speaker 1: of boxes for you know, a serial killer.

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Speaker 2: Everybody take note, no Kate is planning a crime. I

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Speaker 2: mean I've experienced that. You know, there were locations within

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Speaker 2: my jurisdiction that were we found numerous bodies, you know,

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Speaker 2: and they had been deposited, oftentimes many years apart. But

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Speaker 2: these offenders go to these locations because they know of

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Speaker 2: them and these locations are remote and they're not frequently traveled,

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Speaker 2: so they have comfort to be able to let's say,

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Speaker 2: get a body out of a vehicle, dump it off

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Speaker 2: the side of the road, let's say, down into a creek,

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Speaker 2: or to spend some time trying to dig a grave,

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Speaker 2: which almost always is very shallow.

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Speaker 3: You know. So there are known body.

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Speaker 2: Dump locations in my former jurisdiction, and so yeah, as

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Speaker 2: I drive around, you know, especially when I'm off roading,

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Speaker 2: it's like, well, yeah, that would.

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Speaker 3: Be very convenient to dump somebody down there.

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Speaker 1: But in a very innocent, sort of academic way you say.

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Speaker 3: That, of course, of course.

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Speaker 1: Well my vacation photo is my favorite are the kids,

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Speaker 1: but like really seriously, just between you and me, my

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Speaker 1: favorite are these two sites that I'm fascinated by that

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Speaker 1: I think show to me the beauty of Cape Cod

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Speaker 1: but also just the creepiness, and oftentimes those two things

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Speaker 1: intertwine with me. Yeah, so when I think as a

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Speaker 1: buried bones. First, I sent you a photo packet for

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Speaker 1: our chit chat. So open that up and I want

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Speaker 1: you to assess what you think about these two scenes.

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Speaker 1: Because I've said this before, I'm a huge mystery fan.

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Speaker 1: I'm writing a mystery right now, and you know part

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Speaker 1: of it will be set in Massachusetts. So open up

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Speaker 1: the one that I think it says Cape Cod, and

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Speaker 1: then look at that first one because there's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of an explanation, and tell me what you think,

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Speaker 1: purely from a maybe this would be a nightmare to

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Speaker 1: figure out if somebody is in this sort of thing

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Speaker 1: or what.

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Speaker 2: This photo that you sent me, the first one that

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at, I'm assuming that's a lake of some sort.

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Speaker 2: That is the shoreline appears to be heavily covered in vegetation.

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Speaker 2: It's very lush, The water is perfectly still, at least

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Speaker 2: at the time this photographs taken, and there almost appears

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Speaker 2: to be like a fog. You know, it's a very

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Speaker 2: kind of creepy looking area that this is something I

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Speaker 2: would see like in a movie, you know, like a mystery,

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Speaker 2: a movie mystery type of thing. Now it's Cape Cod.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know nuts about Cape Cod. I'm assuming

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Speaker 2: it's on the ocean, right, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's Cape It goes straight down. There's essentially

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Speaker 1: one road in, one road out, and this is in

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Speaker 1: the town or village of Sandwich, and we were staying

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Speaker 1: in a eighteenth century house. And this this is what's

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Speaker 1: called a kettle pond. And I'll annunciate because I'm from Texas.

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Speaker 1: It's a kettle pond. And these are ponds that were

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Speaker 1: created by glaciers in the New England area, you know,

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Speaker 1: thousands of years ago, and they kind of create these divots.

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Speaker 1: So this one, in particular, I've been told is only

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Speaker 1: about eight feet deep, maybe nine feet deep. So this

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Speaker 1: is a pond. It's not technically a lake. So what

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Speaker 1: I thought for a mystery would be interesting is if

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Speaker 1: you've got somebody in this as a fictional story, if

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Speaker 1: you've got somebody in this kettle pond and it's so shallow,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't it surface itself as a body? Wouldn't this body

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Speaker 1: surface itself much more quickly? This isn't the end of

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Speaker 1: the you know, this isn't the ocean or a very

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Speaker 1: deep lake.

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Speaker 2: Well I'm assuming, okay, this is fresh yep. You know,

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Speaker 2: do you have a lot of different critters that are

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Speaker 2: in thisa like okay?

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Speaker 3: Or this pond?

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Speaker 1: First time I've ever seen a mink. I've never seen

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Speaker 1: a mink, oh, okay, So there's whole kinds of stuff

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Speaker 1: living near algae, everything you could think of.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, so for a body, let's say the body

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Speaker 2: is sufficiently weighed down. You know, I could see where

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Speaker 2: the body could be, you know, at the bottom of

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Speaker 2: this pond for a significant period of time. But it is,

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Speaker 2: as I've seen in my own cases, people really underestimate

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Speaker 2: the buoyancy of dead bodies, even body parts, you know,

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Speaker 2: they do have a tendency to want to come up.

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Speaker 1: So when I'm hearing this, if we were grading this

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Speaker 1: body of water for a crime scene, this is what

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Speaker 1: to be a B plus maybe for a fictional serial killer.

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Speaker 2: The shallowness and possibly the clarity of the water, because

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Speaker 2: it looks like there's pretty good visibility.

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Speaker 3: You know, through the water.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I probably wouldn't put it out of b'm I'm

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Speaker 2: thinking more d I think I would like to have

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Speaker 2: a deeper body of water.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: You know, I would say that the shoreline you possibly

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Speaker 2: have better have a better chance of getting away with

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Speaker 2: getting rid of the body along this heavily vegetated shoreline

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Speaker 2: and letting the surface animals, you know, take care of

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Speaker 2: the flesh, and then the skeletal aspects just kind of

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Speaker 2: self bury in the muck. You know with what I've

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Speaker 2: seen with with some of my own casework. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think the from a fictional story that

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Speaker 2: the setting is perfect. It's creepy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, A for creepiness D maybe a C, depending on

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Speaker 1: how close we put it to the shore. As far

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Speaker 1: as like the practicality of putting a body in there,

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Speaker 1: very good.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sure there's locations in Cape Cod where you

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Speaker 2: could get away with things, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're about to talk about one. And this is

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Speaker 1: a Cape Cod story that I think in Massachusetts, maybe

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Speaker 1: around the country, but in Massachusetts at least, I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people know the story. It's almost approaching

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Speaker 1: legend at this point. It'll be really interesting to see

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Speaker 1: what you think. We are not in marshland, and we

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Speaker 1: are not in a kettle pond. We are on a

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Speaker 1: beach though, in sand dunes. Okay, So let's set the scene.

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Speaker 1: In this case, not only do we need to id

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Speaker 1: the murderer but also the victim. So this takes place

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy four. This is five months before my birth.

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Speaker 1: So July twenty sixth, nineteen seventy four, we are on

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Speaker 1: the Race Point Dunes on the Cape Cod National seashore

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Speaker 1: and it's warm July. And even though my kids didn't

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Speaker 1: believe it, when we ended up going around July to

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Speaker 1: Cape Cod, they thought, oh, this is actually pretty warm,

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Speaker 1: and I said, I know, it's warmer than you think.

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Speaker 1: And just a couple hundred miles to the south of

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Speaker 1: Arthur's Vineyard and that's where they're filming Jaws. Did you

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Speaker 1: ever watch Jaws?

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Speaker 3: Of course I did. I saw it in the movie theater.

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Speaker 1: Every summer, my family and I do a Jaws Night

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Speaker 1: in our pool where we cut the lights off everywhere,

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Speaker 1: like every light in the house, outside in the pool, okay,

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Speaker 1: and we watch Jaws and the kids think it's hilarious

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Speaker 1: and we go underwater and like grab my parents' legs.

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Speaker 3: And stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, but you know, that movie is such a classic.

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Speaker 1: It's filming during this story, and it actually does come

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Speaker 1: into play. There's a nine year old girl who's running

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Speaker 1: along the sand Access road and she has a dog.

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Speaker 1: This is one mile east of the Race Point Beach

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Speaker 1: Ranger Station, Okay, and she comes across a gruesome site

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Speaker 1: in the scrub pine brush. I don't know what scrub

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Speaker 1: pine brush is. I mean, I can imagine it, but

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Speaker 1: I imagine very itchy and you know, pokey. This girl

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Speaker 1: finds the body of a woman. When in the nine

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Speaker 1: year old becomes a teenager, she is able to describe

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Speaker 1: what she saw, but again, this is who knows how

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Speaker 1: many years later she described her as naked. She said,

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Speaker 1: I could see an injury on the right side of

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Speaker 1: her head and a little bit of a slice, which

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Speaker 1: I believe they tried to cut her head off. And

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Speaker 1: I have a lot, of course, more details, but this

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Speaker 1: is just what a nine year old had remembered. This

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Speaker 1: was a girl who was scared to death, as anybody

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Speaker 1: would be. She panicked, and she did not alert authorities. Luckily,

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Speaker 1: we have another girl in the same area that same day.

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Speaker 1: She's twelve or thirteen. Her name is Leslie Metcalf, and

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Speaker 1: she's hiking back from a visit with family friends. I

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Speaker 1: think they were staying kind of right on the beach.

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Speaker 1: Her parents and the friends are talking when one of

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Speaker 1: the friends is dogs bolts ahead and Leslie bolts ahead

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Speaker 1: to try to get this dog. It's a beagle. It

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Speaker 1: comes to a stop and it starts barking, and that's

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Speaker 1: when Leslie sees the same naked body at first, she

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Speaker 1: doesn't think it's a person, she said. The skin is

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Speaker 1: more the color of a dead deer. The woman's hands

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Speaker 1: are cut off and her head is nearly decapitated. Now

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Speaker 1: I have a couple of choices. One would be we

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Speaker 1: continue on when we actually have a police officer. They're

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Speaker 1: a very dedicated police officer who follows this case for

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Speaker 1: years and years. Then we get our first kind of

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Speaker 1: professional view and description of this body. But I do

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Speaker 1: have a scene photo that we can look at right now,

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of it's not the greatest photo, but

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Speaker 1: it's the only one we can find. So you tell

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Speaker 1: me if you want to see the photo first, or

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Speaker 1: if you want to hear from the pro first.

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Speaker 2: Let me Yeah, let me take a look at the scene.

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Speaker 2: So I'm taking a look at photo, and it's a

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Speaker 2: photo taken looking into this, I think you call it scrub.

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Speaker 1: Pine, Yes, a scrub pine rush.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So you know this appears to be a woody

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Speaker 2: type of bush that substance some of these look almost

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Speaker 2: like potentially I see what appears to be maybe a

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Speaker 2: six inch to eight inch diameter trunk leading up to

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Speaker 2: what appears to be like pine needles off of the

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Speaker 2: branches of the tree. This is like a coniferous type

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Speaker 2: of thing, and it looks uniform. I'm not seeing other

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Speaker 2: plants intermixed at least within this photo. And there's a

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Speaker 2: kind of a lower you know, in the backdrop is

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Speaker 2: where you see these these bushes to tree height vegetation

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Speaker 2: kind of forming almost a wall behind the body, and

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Speaker 2: where the body's at is sort of a flattened area.

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Speaker 2: It's showing the body basically from the feet up to

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Speaker 2: maybe the shoulder area. And I can't say for sure

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Speaker 2: because there is some interference with some of this scrub

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Speaker 2: pine in the foreground, but the body does look like

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Speaker 2: it's nude, and based off of the orientation of the

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Speaker 2: feet as well as it appears that her butt is up,

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Speaker 2: it can be seen she looks like she's face down,

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Speaker 2: legs are completely straight and from just the orientation that

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Speaker 2: I can tell, and of course I can't discern any

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Speaker 2: types of injuries from this photo. This looks in all

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Speaker 2: likelihood that she was put here versus you know, she

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Speaker 2: was there had been like a big fight and then

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Speaker 2: you know she was killed. The fact that she's nude,

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Speaker 2: you know, of course you have to think that there's

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Speaker 2: potentially this is potentially a sexually motivated crime, but we'll

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Speaker 2: hold off and forming an opinion on that until more

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Speaker 2: details come in. You know, this is a location where

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Speaker 2: it appears the offender is trying to somewhat hide the body.

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Speaker 2: It's just from this vantage point where the photographer is standing,

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Speaker 2: the body is pretty much in plain view, just kind

250
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Speaker 2: of you got all this brush that might if somebody's

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Speaker 2: just walking by, they in glance, they might not necessarily

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Speaker 2: recognize that there's something amiss.

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Speaker 1: So don't take that photo down because you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: when we hear from the police chief and he can describe,

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00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,280
Speaker 1: you know, what he's seeing, it might help with the orientation.

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Speaker 1: I've seen a couple versions of this photo where you

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Speaker 1: would think her vagina is blurred out.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, because I'm seeing what appear to be both

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Speaker 2: of her feet to the left of the photograph, with

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Speaker 2: her heel sticking up, I can see both of her

261
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,320
Speaker 2: lower legs caves, and then it goes up to where

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Speaker 2: now it's just the side of her body and this hump,

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Speaker 2: which I'm assuming is her butt, and then it goes

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Speaker 2: down into her back. So at least in this photo,

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Speaker 2: I don't see how her genital area would be captured

266
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Speaker 2: in this particular photo unless I am completely misinterpreting how

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Speaker 2: I think this body is oriented.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you what the police chief says. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So of course the family calls the police, and the

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Speaker 1: Provincetown police chief shows up. Provincetown is right at the

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Speaker 1: very end of Cape Cod and so it's a guy

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Speaker 1: named James Jimmy Meads. And he just becomes a legend

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Speaker 1: because of this case, because he just is relentless, which

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Speaker 1: is exactly the kind of investigator we want to have

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Speaker 1: on cases like this. He is one of the first

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Speaker 1: people who shows up. This is what he says. The

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Speaker 1: woman is lying on one side of a light green

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Speaker 1: terry cloth beach blanket. It appears as though she had

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Speaker 1: been sharing it with someone because she must have been

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Speaker 1: on one side of it. She had an athletic build.

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Speaker 1: She was approximately five feet six to eight inches tall,

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Speaker 1: about one hundred and forty hundred and fifty pounds under

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Speaker 1: her head are neatly folded wrangler jeans in a blue

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Speaker 1: printed bandana. Investigators estimate she is between twenty five and

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Speaker 1: thirty five. She was wearing a barreat in her long

286
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Speaker 1: auburn hair. It's pulled back into a ponytail with an

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Speaker 1: elastic band, and her toenails are painted pink. And I

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Speaker 1: will tell you before you start asking about wranglers and

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Speaker 1: who owns what, she goes unidentified for a very long time,

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Speaker 1: so we don't know. This is where he's starting with

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Speaker 1: square one here.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is nineteen seventy four. Her hands were.

293
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Speaker 2: Cut off, so the ability to search for fingerprints, you know,

294
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Speaker 2: was removed by the offender. You know, in essence, they

295
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Speaker 2: would have to resort to, you know, a facial identification,

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Speaker 2: going to missing persons reports, you know, and finding you know,

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Speaker 2: anybody that matched the physical descriptions of this body. And

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Speaker 2: it sounds like they probably did that and just failed.

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Speaker 3: And now that's this comes into you know, who is

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Speaker 3: the victim?

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Speaker 2: How come she hasn't been reported at least in the

302
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,120
Speaker 2: local area. What does that tell us about you know,

303
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,960
Speaker 2: who she might be? You know, the victimology is, is

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00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,960
Speaker 2: she somewhat transient? You know, she could be somebody that's

305
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,080
Speaker 2: just deciding that, you know, for adventure purposes, just traveling

306
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Speaker 2: around the country. You know, maybe she's involved in sex

307
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,800
Speaker 2: work and she just disappeared from her family, and she's

308
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Speaker 2: going about her business in various jurisdictions. Yeah, there's so

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Speaker 2: many different possibilities as to why she hasn't been reported.

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Speaker 2: You know, she could be a depending he says, she's

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Speaker 2: twenty five. You know, maybe over the course of her

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Speaker 2: life she has episodes of just disappearing. You know, so

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Speaker 2: family just just assumes, uh, you know, she's gone. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: she'll show up again in six months or two years

315
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Speaker 2: or whatever, and never you know, alerts law enforcement that

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Speaker 2: a loved one is actually gone.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's continue and see if we can pick up

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Speaker 1: on anything. I thought the pink toenail detail was interesting,

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Speaker 1: which made me think maybe not a transient, but who knows.

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Speaker 2: And I know, like when I was using the term

321
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Speaker 2: trans you know, it was more of is this is

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Speaker 2: the victim somebody that is just is moving around, versus

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Speaker 2: somebody that is you know, like a like a homeless

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Speaker 2: situation and can't take care of themselves, because it sounds like,

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Speaker 2: you know, she's out there with a beach blanket, you know,

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Speaker 2: she's you know, I'm assuming the clothing is in decent shape. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, because the law enforcement, of course would would

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Speaker 2: probably very quickly go oh, you know, she's one of

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Speaker 2: our homeless that's in the area, based on what they

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Speaker 2: would be seeing with her.

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Speaker 3: Clothes and her hygiene and everything else. Yep.

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Speaker 1: So I'm gonna get through what needs says the scene

333
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Speaker 1: is like, and what he finds at the scene, and

334
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Speaker 1: then we will have more detail about the autopsy after that. Okay, Okay,

335
00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,919
Speaker 1: it's pretty detailed coming up with what's at the scene.

336
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Speaker 1: This woman's body is badly mutilated and in a state

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Speaker 1: of decay. Remember it's really hot outside. I didn't get

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Speaker 1: the sense that this was direct son, but there could

339
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Speaker 1: have been son on her also, you know, but the

340
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,439
Speaker 1: the heat would have been probably pretty bad. She appears

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Speaker 1: to have been strangled. Her throat they described as slashed

342
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Speaker 1: to the spine. Her head was bludgeoned by an instrument,

343
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Speaker 1: which they said, this is interesting, I've never heard this before.

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Speaker 1: The instrument that Meets thinks might have been used is

345
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Speaker 1: similar to a military entrenching tool, which is a collapsible shovel,

346
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Speaker 1: and that would have been very common and kepe cod

347
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,679
Speaker 1: for you know, dune buggies to get out of a

348
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Speaker 1: pinch in the sand or campers. So he doesn't say

349
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Speaker 1: why he thinks that it must have been the shape

350
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Speaker 1: of it. But she has been bludgeoned. She has nearly decapitated.

351
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Speaker 1: The left side of her skull is crushed. You know.

352
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Speaker 1: I had said that both hands were severed, and it

353
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Speaker 1: sounds like missing one of her arms had been severed

354
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Speaker 1: up to the elbow. In their places, the killer had

355
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Speaker 1: arranged piles of pine needles. I don't know if that's

356
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Speaker 1: sort of a weird reanimating those limbs, but that's just

357
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Speaker 1: the way it was described. There is no sign of

358
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 1: a struggle, and there is no murder weapon. And there

359
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 1: are two sets of footprints, which actually I've checked. I

360
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 1: think it is actually footprints, not shoe prints. I know,

361
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 1: those get you know, they become interchanged sometimes. They said

362
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Speaker 1: that one print is supposed to be like a size

363
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,120
Speaker 1: ten shoe made by somebody heavy and running. I don't

364
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:21,840
Speaker 1: know how you can figure that out. And there's a

365
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,639
Speaker 1: set of tire tracks on a nearby service road somewhere

366
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Speaker 1: between fifteen fifty feet away. And that's where we're done

367
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Speaker 1: with the.

368
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,160
Speaker 3: Scene, okay. And there's no description of blood present, no.

369
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Speaker 1: Just they said, in an advanced state of decay. But

370
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Speaker 1: blood would still be there, I suppose, right what.

371
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,760
Speaker 2: I would be wanting to know was there evidence of

372
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,919
Speaker 2: blood spatter, like you know, the violence inflicted to her

373
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Speaker 2: was done here at this location Nope? Or if it

374
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 2: was elsewhere, and you know, was she transported here and

375
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 2: then placed in this situation, this position, which is significant

376
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,439
Speaker 2: in terms of if the offender is doing that. You know,

377
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,640
Speaker 2: her head is on top of folded jeans and a bandana,

378
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 2: I believe, almost like it's a pillow. And then the

379
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 2: offender has taken the time to arrange pine needles to

380
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,360
Speaker 2: kind of simulate where her upper limbs would have been.

381
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,160
Speaker 2: You know, it's almost as if he's trying to position

382
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 2: the body like she's asleep.

383
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, like she's going on a picnic or getting ready

384
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Speaker 1: to go into the ocean and just she's taking a nap.

385
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 1: How screwed up is that.

386
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Speaker 2: It's no different than an offender who kills somebody in

387
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 2: their bed and then you know, covers them up and puts,

388
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 2: you know, the head on a pillow, you know, to

389
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 2: make it look like they're just asleep when they're actually dead.

390
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,479
Speaker 2: So this is giving the offender, you know, the reason

391
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 2: to do it is most likely to give the offender

392
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,719
Speaker 2: time to escape and time delayed discovery of the body.

393
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 2: People just casually walking by would just say, oh, there's

394
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,880
Speaker 2: a woman asleep over there and not approaching. You know,

395
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 2: if you think somebody's asleep back there in the bushes,

396
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 2: how many people are going to start walking up because

397
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 2: it's the fear is as well, what's going to happen

398
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 2: if she wakes up or if there's somebody else back there?

399
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 3: Right?

400
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,680
Speaker 2: So I think for me, you know, the most important

401
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,440
Speaker 2: thing is is that did the offender kill her here

402
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 2: at this location or did he dump her body here

403
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: and actually take the time to make her look like

404
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,640
Speaker 2: she's asleep, you know? And I think that that's that

405
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 2: that there's a significant difference in terms of what's going on.

406
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: I think as detailed as this is, if there were,

407
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,920
Speaker 1: you know, signs of blood, there's no signs of a

408
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 1: struggle that it would have been noted if there was blood,

409
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 1: you know, if this looked like where it happened, if

410
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 1: you are I mean, I hate to be graphic about this,

411
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: but if you are severing ahead and severing limbs, there

412
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 1: would be a lot of blood, right, I mean, would

413
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 1: it be everywhere?

414
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 3: Well, it depends if the victim is still alive, well,

415
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 3: let's go with no.

416
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 1: I hope.

417
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: I mean, the severing of the hands is obvious to

418
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 2: prevent identification, and the you know, the era of a fingerprints,

419
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 2: and the severing of the head may also be to

420
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 2: prevent identification because of the face. So that's what I'm

421
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 2: assuming in this case at the offender initially started to

422
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 2: do but then decided not to completely remove her head

423
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 2: for one reason or another. The severing of the one arm,

424
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 2: and I think you said it was the right arm

425
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 2: from the elbow down. That suggests to me that she

426
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 2: had some sort of identifying feature on her arm, such

427
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 2: as a tattoo or a birthmark or something, and so

428
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: that's why the offender chose to do that versus just

429
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: cut the hand off at the wrist.

430
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you a really quick note. I

431
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: could go down a big rabbit hole with this. But

432
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: the reason I mentioned Jaws is because later on there

433
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Speaker 1: would be a theory floated by Stephen King, the author's son,

434
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 1: that maybe she was an extra for Jaws, okay, which

435
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: was not very far away. And the style, you know,

436
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: for the extras, especially were these these bandanas and jeans

437
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: turns out to not be the case. It was just

438
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: interesting to see what people were desperately, including the investigators,

439
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: trying to pick up on because there's no identification. There's nothing,

440
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 1: I will tell you, Nobody in the vicinity in Cape

441
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 1: Cod is able to id this woman. Nobody is going, oh, yeah,

442
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: I bet this is someone someone so.

443
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 2: Well and maybe just to clarify, since you have knowledge

444
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 2: of Cape Cod, you know, my impression is is Cape

445
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 2: Cod has a fairly large transient population based due to tourism,

446
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,479
Speaker 2: and it's only at the time of this this case

447
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: that's even greater because of the movie Jaws that's being filmed.

448
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 2: I think Stephen King's I think you said it was

449
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: his brother or his son son, Yeah, this son, you know,

450
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: floating out the idea of an extra.

451
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's a very valid, you know thought.

452
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,360
Speaker 2: If this extra was somebody that flowed in in order

453
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 2: to pick up an odd job on the movie set,

454
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 2: you know, and has no connection to this location whatsoever,

455
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: you know, it's definitely worth an investigative path to go

456
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 2: down in terms of trying to identify who.

457
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 3: This woman is.

458
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: And I think you're right, you know, I do think

459
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 1: you have a lot of people who are working small jobs.

460
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: It's still up and down Cape cod That's one of

461
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: the things that I find it very charming, all the

462
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: people that I can meet. Also, you know, seventies, this

463
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: is the height of hitchhiking, so we don't know who

464
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: this person is. Let me tell you about the autopsy.

465
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,719
Speaker 1: That evening, the women's remains are transported to the medical

466
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: examiner's office. The next morning, which is a Saturday, they

467
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: do the autopsy. And thanks to the July heat like

468
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: we talked about and dune flies, which are awful dune flies,

469
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: decomposition is advanced. It's difficult to gauge the time of

470
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: her death with much precision. They said it could have

471
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: been between four days and up to three weeks before

472
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: her body was found. But there is evidence that she

473
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted with block of wood. And they say

474
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 1: post mortem.

475
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 3: So yeah, foreign objects insertion. Did they say vaginal rectal?

476
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: They didn't. It's just that's sexually assaulted, which I would

477
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: bet is vaginal. Otherwise I think they would have clarified.

478
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: But there's a reason why they're saying it's a lock

479
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 2: of wood. They must have recovered that object, so you know,

480
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 2: and did they recover it from the body or did

481
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: they recover it from the crime scene, because I've seen both.

482
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes the offenders will leave these foreign objects

483
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 2: inside the body, and sometimes they pull them out and

484
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 2: just toss them to the side.

485
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: My understanding is that I don't think this is something

486
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: that was found at the scene. I think this was

487
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,719
Speaker 1: maybe it was based on like the size of the

488
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 1: splinters that they found, But I believe that this assumption

489
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: was made during the autopsy, not as something that was

490
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: found at the scene, you know what I mean.

491
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: Okay, sure, Okay, So they're forming an opinion based on

492
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: what the pathologists recovered from the vaginal orifice. Maybe there

493
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 2: was some wood, would be pieces internally, but they don't

494
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: have the object, so there's going to be a little

495
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 2: bit of a subjective aspect in terms of what exactly

496
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: was used.

497
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: Okay, here's the clue that I found really fascinating. So

498
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,239
Speaker 1: the most important thing that they found, they think, at

499
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 1: this autopsy, is her dentistry that was done on her teeth.

500
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: In the seventies, it was rare for people to have

501
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: extensive dentistry done, but this woman had eight gold crowns

502
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: and they described the style. I didn't know there was

503
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: a style with you know, applying crowns as New York style.

504
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: They cost at least five thousand dollars. It looks like

505
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 1: the killer had tried to pry them off, and a

506
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: guy named doctor Stanley Schwartz, who is the state dental

507
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: forensic examiner, puts the skull kind of back together because

508
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: there were it was a lot of broken pieces and

509
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,239
Speaker 1: a chunk of the skull about the size of a

510
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,479
Speaker 1: hand is missing. A jazz I Get eight inch crack

511
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: runs along the top. The cause of death is determined

512
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: to be a blow to the head. So it sounds

513
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: like when you know, they removed the outside and found,

514
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: you know, and looked at the skull that it had

515
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: been broken apart. When they put it back together, there's

516
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: a big chunk missing. But the New York detail was

517
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: really important on you know, trying to figure out who

518
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 1: she is. Is that interesting New York style?

519
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've got a nineteen seventy five Jane

520
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 2: Doe who had extensive dental work, and there was a

521
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 2: thought that she came over from Europe due to the

522
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 2: type of dental work that she had done. So I

523
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 2: think that there is some significance to this observation. Now,

524
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: you know, my question would be, is this style only

525
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 2: done in New York or could it be replicated, you know,

526
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,959
Speaker 2: by the people in other jurisdictions. You know, that's in

527
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: all likelihood, that's that's the case. But the expense of

528
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 2: that dental work suggests that the victim came from at

529
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 2: least you know, a a she had some financial means

530
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: to her, or her family did or or somebody she's

531
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 2: associated did you know, you know, you said it costs

532
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: like what, five thousand dollars for these crowns. Now that's

533
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: you know, the cost of actually not only the gold,

534
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: but all the other you know, costs associated with with

535
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: producing those crowns. So, you know, this is where I'm

536
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: thinking about the robbery aspect, if you want to call

537
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: it that, in terms of the offender killing the victim,

538
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 2: you know, and wanting to take her teeth for financial gain,

539
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: I guess it's a possibility.

540
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 3: I almost think another.

541
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: Possibility is is that the offender knew that teeth are

542
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 2: often used to identify victims. And you know, this is

543
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: where the offender, you know, he's removing hands. He it

544
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: looks like he's trying to sever her head, you know,

545
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: so he's definitely trying to prevent identification, and maybe he

546
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 2: ends up resorting to I'm going to take her teeth. Yeah,

547
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: and you know what kind of market is is there

548
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 2: for gold crowns? You know, the black market for gold

549
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: crowns stuck in a broken jaw.

550
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 3: I don't know.

551
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: I think that's interesting, and I'll keep an open mind

552
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: about it as we proceed.

553
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: I think that option number two is what meets with

554
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: thinking that this is to prevent identification, because he would

555
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: have I mean eight gold solid gold teeth or gold crowns.

556
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: I think he would have thought people would have realized it.

557
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: But I have a question about that. So he's going

558
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: to all this trouble severing hands and you know, the

559
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: gold teeth, and he's sort of posing her. But you

560
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: already got two kids that have run across her in

561
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: the same day, So why not do a better job

562
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,479
Speaker 1: disposing of her body? If he's not posing her naked

563
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,479
Speaker 1: as a shock factor. If he's really going to all

564
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: of this to try to hide who she is, it

565
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: didn't seem like he did a great job picking the

566
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: dumb side.

567
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 2: No, I think you're spot on because you know, at

568
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: least with this photo that you're showing me, you know,

569
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: it's the body appears to possibly be in you know,

570
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 2: relatively plain view from the location of this photographer. And

571
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: as you pointed out, you have you know, kids in

572
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 2: the area that are are running across his body, so

573
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: it's not like it's really tucked off the beaten path

574
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: out here off of this beach. There may be an

575
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: element where the offender wanted her found and he just

576
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: needed to make sure that she wasn't identified quickly, possibly

577
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: because once she's identified, it becomes obvious who he is.

578
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's continue on. She is buried that October.

579
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: She's in Saint Peter's Cemetery, which is in Provincetown. Still

580
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: don't know who she is, so her name becomes the

581
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: Lady of the Dunes, which there is a series on

582
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: Peacock about that. Now it's actually pretty good, so you know,

583
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: it becomes a fairly well known story. As I said,

584
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: it then quickly goes cold. Over the next few weeks,

585
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: Chief Meads and his thirty person team search the crime

586
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: scene with bloodhounds, the canvas, local motels, They go through

587
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: thousands of missing persons case files. They send five thousand

588
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: dentists the victim's dental records, and the chief arranges for

589
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: multiple articles on the murder to appear in True Detective.

590
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: He's definitely looking, you know, he's trying to get everybody's attention.

591
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: He consult psychics, he sounds pretty desperate. He's trying to

592
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: find the hands. And none of this has any luck.

593
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: And so we're leaving this case in nineteen seventy four,

594
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: and before we move on to the next decade, tell

595
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: me what you think so.

596
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: Far here he's sol without her identification. It's so critical

597
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: to try to get these victims identified as fast as

598
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: possible if you really want to make progress in the investigation.

599
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 2: And when when you end up having a victim that

600
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: ultimately isn't identified for months and you have other cases

601
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: coming in, you know, you're going to focus your energies,

602
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: your department's resources elsewhere. And then that's how these types

603
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: of cases literally, I mean, they get forgotten. I mean

604
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: she's been buried in a basically a Jane Doe grave,

605
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: and I know, like jurisdictions that I've worked out of.

606
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 2: I dug up a seventeen year old girl out of

607
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 2: Santa Cruz washed up on you know, on the Santa

608
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: Cruz Beach and she was a Jane Doe and she'd

609
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: literally was just put in a body bag and put

610
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 2: in the ground. And we dug her up in two

611
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 2: thousand and one and we're able to identify her and

612
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 2: get her back to her family. But you know, it's

613
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 2: like these these bodies are just almost they're not hate

614
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: to use the term discarded, because there are some corners

615
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 2: offices that do a good job, but fundamentally they're not

616
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 2: putting a lot of resources in terms of the burials.

617
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 2: You know, it's a cardboard box, it's a body bag,

618
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: and this is not good for preservation of the body.

619
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 2: You know, decades later, when technology starts getting to where

620
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 2: we can actually do something.

621
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: Well, you are touching on what I'm about to talk about. No,

622
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: Chief Means is incredibly frustrated. And six years later he's

623
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: still in the force and we have the body exhumed.

624
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty, they take blood samples, this skull is

625
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: used to create a sculpture of her face. Means ends

626
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 1: up keeping the skull in his office on his desk

627
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: until he retires in ninety two. I mean Paul. This

628
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: just goes on. She's exhumed several times. What immediately strikes

629
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: some folks is the facial recognition, which I'm just going

630
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: to kind of show you in a little bit, because

631
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: they do this many times. You'll see like a page

632
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: full of what looks like a pretty consistent looking person.

633
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 1: But I'll show you that in a minute. It looks

634
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: like a twenty five year old local woman who was

635
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: known as a local crime. Maybe she got crosswise with

636
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: somebody we don't know. You know, this is a woman

637
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: who did armed robbery and was kind of all over

638
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: the place. Ultimately it turns out not to be her.

639
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: But in the year two thousand, she is exhumed again.

640
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: They take a bone marrow tissue sample for DNA testing.

641
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: Then they compare it to a saliva sample taken from

642
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: this young woman, the criminal. They compare it to her mother,

643
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: and they had done this a little bit earlier, but

644
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: it's not a match. They're back to square one. But

645
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: they do continue to collect these samples of things. So

646
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: now they've got blood and they've got bone marrow tissue

647
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: sample and that's in the year two thousand. So what

648
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: does all of this mean That would be available in

649
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: another couple of decades. Would this be helpful stuff to

650
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: have preserved well?

651
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty, collecting the blood after the exhumation, that's

652
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: about the poorest source of DNA in nineteen eighty they're

653
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: not thinking DNA, but chances are because she's so decomposed

654
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 2: when she's found, there's a good chance that the DNA

655
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 2: in her blood is gone.

656
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 3: I've had cases like that.

657
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 2: You know, where even with a what would be considered

658
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 2: moderate decomposition and the victim's blood is devoid of his

659
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 2: own DNA. So now you have a body that's been

660
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 2: in the ground for six years and they collect a

661
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,439
Speaker 2: blood sample, I'm not sure what good that would have done.

662
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 2: Then this is where now you have to go after

663
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: long bone. You need to go after teeth. You know,

664
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 2: the dentin inside, you know, the teeth oftentimes is the

665
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 2: only source of DNA because everything else has decomposed. You know,

666
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 2: the bacteria has chewed the DNA up in these in

667
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 2: these bodies. So in two thousand, during the exhumation, you know,

668
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: they collect bone, marrow tissue, which it sounds like they

669
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 2: were able to at least get some amount of DNA,

670
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: but the bone marrow is not necessarily the best source

671
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 2: of DNA from this body. Again, you go after the

672
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 2: long bone, that not the inside the long bone, but

673
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: actually take samples of these long bones. It's just the femur.

674
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 2: You take her teeth, you know. And in two thousand,

675
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: this is right on, you know, where law enforcement labs

676
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: were really fine tuning the modern DNA testing, this str

677
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: testing that was going on. So that sample might you know,

678
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 2: today possess enough DNAs that we could do advanced DNA

679
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 2: technology on it if needed. I don't know she ultimately

680
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: is ever identified, but it's very possible that that bone

681
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 2: marrow tissue probably is insufficient and they're going to have

682
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: to dig her up again, you know, outside of you know,

683
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: this chief keeping her skull on his desk, Well, then

684
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: it's just a matter of having an anthropologist pulling some

685
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 2: teeth and getting it to a DNA testing lab. But

686
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: generally you don't want to keep your victims' heads on

687
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: your desk. That needs to be repatriated to the rest

688
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 2: of the body.

689
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: Well, don't worry, Meads as retired right now. So okay,

690
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: In two thousand, they suspect a serial killer, a guy

691
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: named Hayden Clark. He I've never heard of this guy, Paul.

692
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: He is known as the cross dressing cannibal. He confesses

693
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: in two thousand and four he had male drawings of

694
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: a woman he claimed to have murdered on Cape cod

695
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 1: to a prison pinpal in a sketch. The woman's missing

696
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 1: her hands. There's no evidence that connects him to this murder, though,

697
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: and the confession seems to be elicited by a culmination

698
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 1: of the high profile nature of the case and paranoid schizophrenia.

699
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: They even take him to the scene and he doesn't

700
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: know anything, and he, ultimately, I promise, is not the person.

701
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: So this is another dead end. But they're keeping this

702
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: case alive. In twenty thirteen, just like they heard you before,

703
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 1: they do exuom her body again. So twenty thirteen they

704
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: take more DNA samples, including from her jaw.

705
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 2: So that's good, right, Yeah, So that's better, and hopefully

706
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 2: you know the again. You know, I think if you're

707
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: collecting some of the jawbone, you're grabbing some of the molars,

708
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 2: you're grabbing some of the teeth.

709
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: Okay, here we go, this will make you excited. In

710
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, a little something happens with the Golden State

711
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: killer stuff, and the DA in Provincetown gets excited about this.

712
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: He reopens this case. It's really never been closed, but

713
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: he becomes more active in the case, and now the

714
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: FBI is taking over this part. Later they would hire

715
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: this guy, this forensic investigator named Paul Holes. So the

716
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: FBI hired Authorm, and they developed a full DNA profile

717
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: of the lady of the Dunes that I've been wondering

718
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: if you remember I've ever heard of this case because

719
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: you worked for AUTHORM.

720
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 2: I can't say I have. You know, you know, I

721
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 2: know the authorum's website. You can go there and see

722
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 2: everybody that they've identified, you know, all these dos on

723
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: their website.

724
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: But she's in there.

725
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 3: I'm sure, yeah, I can guarantee she's in there. I

726
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 3: just I don't know. I have no idea.

727
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: So Authorm gets it. They develop a full DNA profile

728
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: of her, and this is twenty eighteen. The profiles in

729
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: cross checked against numerous online genealogical databases. They find a

730
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: close match and a guy named Richard Hanschett. He was

731
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: This is an interesting story. He had been adopted in

732
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight. His adoptive parents had worked at a

733
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: car factory in Michigan. This is where we're starting, Michigan.

734
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: One of their coworkers was twenty one. She got pregnant

735
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: and she said, I can't raise this boy. Can you

736
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 1: all help me? And they did. After his adoptive parents died,

737
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: Hanschitt decided to do the DNA testing and hoping to

738
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: find his biological family. So he goes through ancestry dot

739
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: com that connects to a cousin in Tennessee and her

740
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: name is Marilyn renee Terry Hill. That year, Hanschett attended

741
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: a family reunion and that's where he finds out that

742
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: his mother, thirty seven year old Ruth Marie Terry, has

743
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: been missing since nineteen seventy four. And this is the

744
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: Lady and the Dunes.

745
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 3: What is the story of Ruth? You know, why does

746
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 3: she go missing?

747
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: Well, you know you said earlier how important it is

748
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: to identify the victims, because DNA does not solve this.

749
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: It is figuring out who Ruth is. Ruth Marie Terry

750
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: was born in Whitwell, which is about twenty four miles

751
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 1: northwest of Chattanooga. She was a teenager when she got

752
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: married the first time to a guy named Billy Ray Smith.

753
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: That separated, she went to Michigan, she got pregnant and

754
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 1: gave birth to Richard. After she gave Richards adoptive parents him,

755
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: she moved to California. Throughout the nineteen sixties, Ruth stayed

756
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: in contact with the adoptive family to make sure everything

757
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: was going well with him. In seventy three, she even

758
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: tried to get in touch with Richard and he said

759
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 1: I refused to meet her. He said, I was a teenager,

760
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,399
Speaker 1: I was messed up, I was mad, and I didn't

761
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: have anything to do with her. And of course he

762
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: regrets that because she ends up being murdered the next year.

763
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: Now we get to what is happening. In seventy three,

764
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: Ruth goes back to Tennessee and she has a new

765
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: boyfriend in tow. His name is Guy Rockwell Muldovin, and

766
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 1: this is the last time that her family ever saw her. Guy, however,

767
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: goes back to Michigan. He's driving Ruth's car. He has

768
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: a lot of excuses and ultimately the family had lost

769
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: touch with Ruth, and he said she was involved in

770
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: some shady stuff. The family ends up thinking she went

771
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: into witness protection for one thing or another, I guess,

772
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 1: really involved with shady stuff or in that world. So

773
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: they essentially the bottom line is they've accepted that they're

774
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 1: never going to hear from her again, and I'm sure

775
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,280
Speaker 1: he convinces them of that. So now we're going forward

776
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: to November of twenty twenty two. This is now a

777
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: recent case. Right, FBI agents hold a press conference. They

778
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: announce that the lady of the dunes is Ruth Marie Terry,

779
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: and they start looking into guy because this is the

780
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: prime suspect. He is an antique stealer, he is a womanizer,

781
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: and of course a possible multiple murderer. I'm not going

782
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: to call him a serial killer because I don't think

783
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: he's going to fit into your definition. But we'll see

784
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: Ruth had married him. That was his fourth wife. He

785
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: made national headlines in n eineteen sixty before he had

786
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: even met her, in relation to the disappearances of his

787
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: second wife and her eighteen year old daughter, and they

788
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: were last seen in nineteen sixty. On April first, the

789
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: police go to his Guy's addict in Seattle. Nineteen sixties,

790
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: police because they are searching for this woman named Manzanita

791
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: Merns and her daughter Dolores Anne in Chicago. So they

792
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 1: go to his Chicago home. The septic tank was suspiciously

793
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: filled with fresh concrete, and when investigators broke the concrete,

794
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: they found bits of human flesh and bone alongside strands

795
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 1: of hair inside the septic tank and the attic. His

796
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: attic is stained with blood. So whether or not this

797
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 1: makes a difference to you, I don't know, but I

798
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: do have the scene of the attic where this apparently happened.

799
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking at this photo and it's a black

800
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: and white photo which in the backdrop I can see,

801
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 2: you know, a wall which is just studs, and then

802
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 2: the primary focus of this photograph is this wooden floor,

803
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 2: which I'm assuming is up in the attic. And then

804
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: there's been a large, almost like a sharpie type outline

805
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 2: that has been drawn around what, to my eyes looks

806
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 2: like very consistent with what was a pool of blood

807
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 2: that you know, has likely been either cleaned up or

808
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 2: absorbed into the wood. But it is an obvious discoloration

809
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 2: and a fairly large, you know, fairly large pool of blood.

810
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 2: And then there's some satellite stains that are tough to

811
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 2: really make out. But I'm assuming that those they're similar

812
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 2: in color, so those probably are other blood stains that

813
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 2: are all encircled with this black sharpie mark. And there's

814
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 2: a number associated with this location of forty seven dash A.

815
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 2: And that's a fairly typical thing that you know, csis

816
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 2: law enforcement due is they'll put you know, number stands

817
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 2: to de mark different items of evidence. And instead of

818
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: using a number stand, they're using a marker, a sharpie

819
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: in order to indicate what item number they've assigned to

820
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 2: this location up in the attic. And then the following photograph,

821
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 2: Oh well, okay, so the following photograph, this appears to

822
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 2: be where they have removed some of the flooring, and

823
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 2: so now you can see the joists, and underneath where

824
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 2: this floor was is what appears to be a fairly

825
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 2: large blood pool. That this is where the blood had

826
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 2: not been cleaned up, and so you can see where

827
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 2: now the blood has dried. You have dried blood crusts

828
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 2: inside this blood pool, and you have multiple item numbers

829
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 2: being ascribed sixteen dash A, fourteen dash A, forty three

830
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 2: dash A. And this is fairly typical where if you

831
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: have a blood pool on let's say, a hardwood floor,

832
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 2: that blood seeps through any cracks it can and goes

833
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 2: to the you know, the sub through the subfloor. And

834
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 2: that's what appears to be happening. Here is up in

835
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: the attic, they see visible staining on top of the

836
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: wood floor. They cut up that wood floor, and then

837
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 2: underneath that is now where they there's blood that the

838
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: offender didn't even realize was there, you know, and this

839
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 2: this type of blood pooling, that's pretty indicative that you

840
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: got somebody with a very serious bleeding injury. You know,

841
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 2: I can't say there's you know, enough blood there to

842
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 2: say definitively you know that bleeder is dead. But that's

843
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,919
Speaker 2: this is where you look at this and you okay, yeah,

844
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 2: we've got the homicide scene right here.

845
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: Well, let me give you some more information. There was

846
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: no body found there, but a few days later there

847
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,959
Speaker 1: were legs that were found in the Columbia River, about

848
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: two hundred miles from Seattle. They matched the woman's height, weight,

849
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 1: and blood type. Investigators start tracking things down. Guy had

850
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 1: rented up handled van on April sixth. The odometer seems

851
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 1: to show that he had driven three hundred miles, which

852
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: is the distance to make it from his home to

853
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: Seattle on back and in the meantime, you know, guy

854
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: takes off and he goes to Reno, he buys a

855
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: sports car, he goes to Provincetown, and then he moves

856
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,479
Speaker 1: to New York and he receives a no shop. There's

857
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: not enough evidence. They track him down because they said,

858
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 1: you took off and there is a murder investigation happening.

859
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: They charged him with unlawful flight to avoid giving testimony

860
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 1: in the murder of his second wife. But that was it.

861
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: There wasn't enough evidence, they say, to charge him with

862
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: the murder of either the second wife or his stepdaughter.

863
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: And that's why he met headlines and then he got

864
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: away with it.

865
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think somebody dropped the ball there.

866
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, come on, you know, of course there's there's, you know,

867
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 2: lots more that would have to be you know, done

868
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 2: in terms of building a case against him. But in essence,

869
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 2: you've got inside his residence. You've got you know, today

870
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 2: we'd be able to prove you know, whose blood that is,

871
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: you know, but back then it'd be consistent with his

872
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 2: wife or the daughter. You've got part of a body

873
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 2: coming up. I'm sure you know the circumstances of his

874
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: flight could be argued by the prosecutors. You got the

875
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 2: septic tank, you know, with parts of bodies. I'm not

876
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 2: sure exactly what all they found in the septic tank.

877
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 1: It was bits of flesh, is what they said.

878
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like if you really rolled up your

879
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 2: sleeves as an investigator and a prosecutor, you could probably

880
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 2: find enough to charge him with.

881
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 3: This sounds like a double homicide, you know.

882
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 2: And then of course, now you fast forward and you've

883
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,399
Speaker 2: got Ruth who's got an association with Guy.

884
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 3: I mean, he's got a pattern, yep.

885
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: And they're pretty convinced that this pattern went back to

886
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty. So if we're talking about trying to gather

887
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: evidence against Guy, the modern day investigators say, wait, we

888
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 1: knew of a case from nineteen fifty in Humboldt County

889
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 1: in Eureka, California. Right, So in Eureka, California, in Humboldt

890
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: County where Guy's first wife owned a restaurant and there

891
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: were two people who went missing. So in June of

892
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty, going back more decades, twenty eight year old

893
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: Henry Baird and his seventeen year old girlfriend Barbara Kelly

894
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 1: were murdered. She was a waitress at a sweet shop,

895
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:10,439
Speaker 1: which is the restaurant owned by Guy's first wife. He

896
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: was a cook there and Baird was a bakery truck driver.

897
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 1: So this is how the circumstances play out. They were

898
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: found dead on June eighteenth on Table Bluff Beach. Henry

899
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: Baird had been shot in the back of the head.

900
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: He had been stripped down to his socks and shoes.

901
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 1: His clothing was folded neatly next to him. Barbara Kelly's clothes,

902
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:39,240
Speaker 1: except for her shoes and stockings, were folded underneath Henry's.

903
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: There was no concrete evidence though, and I don't know

904
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: if they suspected Guy until all these other things start

905
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: coming together. Barbara Kelly was never found and it's an

906
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 1: unsolved case even now. Nobody's ever been charged in this.

907
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: So this would be two coincidental that this happened to

908
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 1: these two young people when Guy had been working at

909
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: that restaurant.

910
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 2: Well, and then again you go to you know, the

911
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 2: latest case with Ruth and her genes and bandana were

912
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 2: folded and placed underneath her head. This is why is

913
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 2: the offender doing that. He does not need to do

914
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 2: that in order to commit the crime. This is significant

915
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 2: to Guy, I would say, you know, most certainly this

916
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty case of Henry and Barbara.

917
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 3: You know, Guy is involved.

918
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 2: Now if they have evidence, if they have those items

919
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: of let's say, Barber's never been found, but they have

920
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: her clothing, is Guy's DNA on that clothing? You know,

921
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 2: would they be able to close the case if they

922
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 2: pursue that type of testing. Maybe they don't feel that

923
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 2: they need to, you know, so I don't know what guys.

924
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 2: You know, is he alive today or not? But you

925
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 2: know there's a chance, even as far back as a

926
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty case that they could potentially get physical evidence

927
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 2: in order to prove it.

928
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: Well, let's wrap this up. So two two. They are

929
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: all convinced at this point on Cape Cod that he

930
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:09,240
Speaker 1: is responsible for Ruth's depth. They find out that Ruth

931
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: and Guy were together for sure during the time when

932
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: they were traveling and she was murdered, and in August

933
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, the district attorney declares that Guy

934
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:25,760
Speaker 1: is definitively responsible, but he died two decades earlier.

935
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 2: I had a feeling that that was going to be

936
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 2: the case you asked me or you made the comment

937
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 2: of whether or not I would consider guy a serial killer,

938
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 2: and yes I would, and I think he literally is

939
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 2: falling into any definition of serial killer typically when I

940
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 2: I mean, you have people who commit a series of

941
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 2: crimes and oftentimes, let's say it's financial gain and stuff.

942
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 2: And from my perspective, the psychology the motivation for those

943
00:53:57,760 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 2: types of crimes is very different than your fantasy mode

944
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,879
Speaker 2: evated you're sexually motivated type of offender. Take a look

945
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 2: at what happened to Ruth. You know, she's nude. You

946
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 2: have for an object insertion, and there's probably more sexual

947
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 2: interaction with that body than just the insertion of maybe

948
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 2: this would block you know, so there is a sexual component.

949
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 2: Henry and Barbara, these are people that he's I mean,

950
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 2: it's not his family members, but he's close to Barbara

951
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 2: just because she works in the same restaurant he works

952
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 2: in and it's owned by his first wife. You know,

953
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 2: I think he is a serial killer and he's preying

954
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 2: on people that are either in a relationship with him

955
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 2: or are close enough to him. He possibly has other cases,

956
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 2: you know, than what has been identified here. I think

957
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 2: it's unfortunate in nineteen seventy four, they couldn't identify Ruth

958
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 2: with any type of speed, because if they had, they

959
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 2: possibly could have uncovered guys, you know, prior crimes, and

960
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 2: he could have been arrested and charged for.

961
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:06,879
Speaker 3: All of them.

962
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: I agree, And one thing I wanted to point out,

963
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: because we do have a lot of victims here. They

964
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 1: never found his eighteen year old stepdaughter, and they never

965
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:21,280
Speaker 1: found Barbara, who was seventeen. So maybe that's the sexual

966
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 1: component also that you're thinking of. You know, he had

967
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: taken them away and hidden them somewhere after doing whatever

968
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 1: he did. I don't know, but they were never found.

969
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 2: And I think that that's like when you take a

970
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 2: look at Barbara and Henry. Henry a shot in the

971
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 2: back of the head. He's executed. He's been stripped down

972
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,399
Speaker 2: to just his socks and shoes, I think, is what

973
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 2: you said.

974
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 1: Yep, stripped down to his socks and shoes, and his

975
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:48,439
Speaker 1: clothing was folded neatly next to him.

976
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, with him having his socks and shoes on, that

977
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 2: does not you know, because I was thinking, well, could

978
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 2: Henry and.

979
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 3: Barbara have just been, you know, out there on the.

980
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 2: Beach and maybe involved in some sort of you know,

981
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 2: consensual physical encounter, and that's why Henry has been stripped down.

982
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 2: His socks and shoes are on. That suggests to me

983
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 2: that he is now being forced to be moved against

984
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 2: his will, and that's why his socks and shoes are

985
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 2: on to the location where he is executed. And then

986
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 2: Barbara is now forced to go somewhere else, and you know,

987
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 2: who knows where she ends up, whether she ends up

988
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 2: in the ocean, she's you know, taken into guy's vehicle

989
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 2: and he's dumped her in the woods somewhere, who knows,

990
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 2: But he's spending time with the primary target of that couple,

991
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 2: and that's the female and the stepdaughter very possibly was

992
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 2: somebody that he ended up wanting to sexually interact with

993
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 2: at a greater level than his second wife.

994
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I believe they only found the

995
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: wife's legs. So the reason I think this case is

996
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: a good case for us was exactly what we talked

997
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,760
Speaker 1: about at the beginning, which is the importance of finding

998
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 1: out who the victim is. I mean, just from a

999
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:09,760
Speaker 1: compassion standpoint, it's important, of course to catch the killer,

1000
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 1: but for these families who just have to spend decades

1001
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 1: not knowing what happened. And Richard, I'm sure just so

1002
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: upset with himself for not reconnecting with his birth mother

1003
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: and feeling like he had been abandoned when it sounds

1004
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 1: like was not the case at all with Ruth. You know,

1005
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: all of that was so important, but it does ultimately

1006
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 1: end up leading Ruth leads us to her killer and

1007
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: probably the killer of several at least four other people.

1008
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: So you know, we don't get DNA from him, we

1009
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: don't get justice from him because he died two decades earlier.

1010
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: But the conclusions, I think and being able to kind

1011
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: of at least with Ruth's family be able to say

1012
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: this is what happened, were so important and that's why

1013
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: this is a good case.

1014
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 2: And this is you know, where this modern technology. You know,

1015
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 2: you brought up my current employer, AUTHORM. You know they've

1016
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 2: identified more Jane and John does than anybody and many

1017
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 2: of these are not Many of these unidentified remains are

1018
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 2: not victims of homicide. You know that they died for

1019
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 2: other reasons, but you do have these types of cases

1020
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 2: that once these does are identified and they are homicide victims,

1021
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 2: then the cases often are rapidly solved just because now

1022
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 2: you have a starting point and it becomes obvious who

1023
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 2: the offender is.

1024
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 3: And that's like in Roosts case.

1025
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 2: You know, and I kind of you know with guy,

1026
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,919
Speaker 2: you know, he died decades before man, I would want

1027
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 2: to get a hold of a DNA sample from his

1028
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 2: remains somehow some way and.

1029
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 3: Search CODIS and see.

1030
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 2: You know, is there other cases that are unsolved because

1031
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 2: he was never arrested and uploaded into the code of system.

1032
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: Would that not be a normal procedure? Well, no, because

1033
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: he wasn't a suspect when he died in early two thousands.

1034
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 1: But I mean if he weren't cremated, I guess it

1035
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 1: was still I mean, there's nothing to do with cremation, right.

1036
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 2: Well, there's complexities, you know, you take a look at

1037
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 2: you know, when he's committing these crimes, and they predate

1038
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 2: sex offender laws or the various laws that permit law

1039
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 2: enforcement to collect DNA samples from offenders and search databases.

1040
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 2: Now I think there's and now I am aware of

1041
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 2: some ways that you might be able to do something.

1042
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 2: But you know, where is his DNA today that we

1043
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 2: can get our hands on?

1044
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 3: Is he buried.

1045
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 2: Can we do an exhimation, which is not necessarily a

1046
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 2: trivial task, But did he have samples you know, collected

1047
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 2: during medical procedures, was autopsyed and you have a coroner's office,

1048
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 2: you know, having tissue samples, et cetera. You know, it

1049
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 2: would be interesting to see if some cases could be

1050
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 2: solved if his DNA is put into at least a

1051
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 2: one time search or the CODA system, which back in

1052
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 2: the day when I was still somewhat involved on the

1053
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 2: lab side, that was a possibility to do Today. I

1054
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 2: just don't know if the FBI permits that type of

1055
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 2: one type search.

1056
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: Let's see, he died in two thousand and two in Salinas, California.

1057
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 1: Oh wow, right, so there you go. So you might

1058
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 1: know somebody and it looks like he was cremated.

1059
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 3: Does it indicate how he died?

1060
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 1: It just said following a lengthy illness.

1061
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, So with that, your best hope is that there

1062
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 2: were some tissue samples. Let's say he had a cancer,

1063
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 2: or he had numerous blood draws or something that you

1064
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 2: know the hospital has over the decades. If he had

1065
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 2: a lengthy illness, there's a chance that his doctor just

1066
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 2: signed the death certificate and he never went to a

1067
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 2: corner's office, but I would be checking anyways.

1068
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: Well, this was not the cleanest because we didn't get

1069
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 1: the justice that we wanted, but still a really interesting case.

1070
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 1: And again so important about victimology, like you say all

1071
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: the time, and criminal profiling is one thing, but that

1072
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 1: didn't solve this. This was figuring out who she is,

1073
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 1: looking for clues, and of course good old genetic genealogy

1074
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 1: is always helpful.

1075
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 2: It's turned out to be revolutionary, you know, but it

1076
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 2: doesn't stand alone, as we see in this case. And

1077
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 2: once Ruth is identified, now there's a domino effect. You

1078
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 2: have multiple cases going back decades that guy was involved with.

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Speaker 1: All right, Paul, next week will be a different case

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Speaker 1: for sure, and hopefully we have a better resolution.

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Speaker 3: All right, looking forward to it.

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Speaker 1: As always, this has been an exactly right production for

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Speaker 1: our sources.

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Speaker 2: Show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

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Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

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01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:13,000
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

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01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

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Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

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01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.

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01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

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01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

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01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

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01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

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01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: cold Cases is also available now.

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Speaker 2: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts