1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policymakers and performers, to 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: their careers, what relationships influence their work. The best story 5 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: Esquire Magazine ever published as titled Frank Sinatra has a Cold. 6 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: That's according to Esquire itself back in two thousand three, 7 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: selecting from its seventy year archive, which includes writers like 8 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: Raymond Carver, Ernest Hemingway, and f. Scott Fitzgerald, Gaytales wrote, 9 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: Frank Sinatra has a Cold and many more articles along 10 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: with several books. He sticks to the facts and tells 11 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: layered compelling stories about the famous, the not so famous, 12 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: and the infamous. Like mafia legend Bill Bonano, to Lea's 13 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: spends an unconventionally long time with his subjects. It pays 14 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: off with a depth and complexity hard to find in 15 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: journalism today. For Gay to Lee is achieving this requires 16 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: both instinct and skill. I think to a degree a 17 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: kind of discipline can be taught about writing how a 18 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: sentence should be clear, And you could certainly have some 19 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: tutoring with regard to that, but I think writing and 20 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: writers are of a breed that are. In the case 21 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: of nonfiction, writers are driven by curiosity. In the case 22 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: of fiction writers, playwrights, short story writers, essay is then 23 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: creativity is involved. I'm in the category of nonfiction, and 24 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: my way of working is to first to indulge my curiosity. 25 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: I'm propelled by the notion of how do other people 26 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: get through the day and night, and what are they 27 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: like and how are they different from me. I'm always 28 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: measuring myself, whether I'm interviewing Frank Sinata, Joda Maju, or 29 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: some pigeon feeder on Lexington Avenue, Joe Banana, Joe Banano. 30 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: I have a variety of subjects. I'm not an expert 31 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: in anything. My range is is is very far reaching, 32 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: not always profound. But I'm my curiosity is profound. It's 33 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: far reaching, for sure. You started working at the Times 34 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: in fifty three. I was a copy boy. I was 35 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: born near Atlantic City. My father was an Italian born tailor, 36 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: and my mother was at Brooklyn, born Italian who met 37 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: this man, this tailor, and they settled there and I 38 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: was born in ninety two. But I couldn't get into 39 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: college because my grades were terrible. It was pretty good 40 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 1: in high school journalism, but I wasn't good at anything else, 41 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: including English. But my father was making suits for a 42 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: man from Alabama doctor in our town, and he suggests 43 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: they go to the versu of Alabama in one place 44 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: that welcomed me because of the doctor's influence with a 45 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: date of admission. And I had the best four years 46 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: of my life in Alabama from forty nine and fifty three. 47 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: Not a good football team. Was it like to be? 48 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: What it was like? The kill from Jersey? And it 49 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: was it was like being another immigrant. My father was 50 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: an immigrant and I was an immigrant in a sense. 51 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: Later on, when I got a job in the New 52 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: York Times, I went down to Alabama to cover the 53 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: civil rights March to Selma, March of nine six five 54 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,679 Speaker 1: Morton Luther, the Gig's famous march. It was interesting being 55 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: an Italian born journalist born in New Jersey, but went 56 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: to school Alabama and goes back as a reporter for 57 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: the Times to help cover this the seventeen day march 58 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: to Montgomery from Selma. So I saw a part of 59 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: a history from different perspectives. Now you said that you 60 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: are a nonfiction writer. What's true? And yet you were 61 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: identified with a certain stripe of nonfiction, a contemporary nonfiction 62 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: that people have called different names new journalism and stuff 63 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: with you Wolf and some of his novels. How do 64 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: you define? How do you define the different to what 65 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: you do? What I do and what I always have 66 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: been influenced by our fiction writers. As a boy, I 67 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: didn't grow up and a home with a lot of books. 68 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: You can imagine as an immigrant family, a tailor and 69 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: then my mother's soul dresses. So I wasn't reared in 70 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: the home of Virginia woolf. I was reared in the 71 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: home of merchants. And it was a good training for 72 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: a writer to be a reporter, to be because if 73 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: you were a store person. My family has a store, 74 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: and from the earliest age I was taught good manners. 75 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: You must be courteous to the customer. Even though I 76 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: didn't have a literary background, I did read some books, 77 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: not many, but some. When I went to Alabama, I 78 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: read Faulkner. I never heard of Faulkner until I went 79 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: to Alabama. And I also started reading when I came 80 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: to be a copy boy. I started reading the New Yorker, 81 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:42,799 Speaker 1: and I read short stories by Irwin Shaw, John Schiever, St. 82 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: Claire mckelloway was a nonfiction writer. A J. Leveling was 83 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: a nonfiction writer, and Joe Mitchell was a nonfiction writer. 84 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: And I read all these high level writers, particularly drawn 85 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 1: to the fiction of John O'Hara and Erwin Shaw, who's 86 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: not known now, but he's a beautiful writer, and he 87 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: wrote great short stories. Uh the eight r and run 88 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: about a college football player who would love with a young, 89 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: beautiful blonde, and it tells the story Irwin Showa does. 90 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: He didn't quite make it in the pros. He didn't 91 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: make it, but he came to New York with his wife, 92 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: who got to be a fashion editor one of the 93 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: better magazines, and more successful the older she got, and 94 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: he was less successful the older he got. Like many athletes, 95 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: their life is in their twenties and after that it's 96 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: a very much a question whether they have a future, 97 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: have any life at all. I thought that story was 98 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: so real and yet it was fiction. My first job 99 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: as a report was in the sports department, So when 100 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: I would meet Frank's at the Times, she started in 101 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: the sports I did my first job as I got 102 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: on the staff, which was was in the sports department, 103 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: and I met people like Frank Gifford and but you know, 104 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: the New York Giants for a good team. In those days, 105 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: I wanted to be a practitioner of nonfiction meeting You 106 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: cannot make it up, you cannot use your imagination, you 107 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,239 Speaker 1: cannot fake the facts. You have to write verifiably. Whatever 108 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: you write, real names, real facts, so the reader can 109 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: check you out. On the other hand, I wanted to 110 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: be storytellers. So if you read my stories about maybe 111 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: a football player or Floyd Patterson, or Joe Lewis Guy 112 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: or Joe Lewis that I knew, or Muhammad Ali, and 113 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: all these stories begin with scenes and the scenes setting 114 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: I've learned from people like f Scott Fitzgerald. The great 115 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: story that Fitzgerald wrote as every bit as good as 116 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: as Great Gatsy. It's called Winter Dreams. I fell in 117 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: love with that story. I fell in love with that 118 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: girl that the Caddie fell in love with. And I 119 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: wanted to bring to my stories, my little magazine pieces 120 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: or my books later on, what the short story writers 121 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: and the novelists brought to their dramatic rendering out of 122 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: their imagination, and so I used my imagination, such as 123 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: it was to sort of penetrate the personalities the private 124 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: lives if I need be of other people. I had 125 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: tremendous respect for people that I wrote about starting to 126 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: get it as a boy in the store, where you 127 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: respect the customer and you mind your manners, and you 128 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: when you behave properly and your trust, courtesy and courtesy. 129 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: That's something journalists don't have. They don't Well, we're gonna 130 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: get to that how it's changed. But before you write books, 131 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: or before you write the book about the times and 132 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: you're in the sports, just give us an example of 133 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: one of the first sports figures you interacted with and 134 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: what that was like. I mean, someone that you first 135 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: when I interacted with, what I call a very deep way, 136 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: was the price fighter Floyd Patterson, who came up in 137 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: the late nineteen fifties. He was articulate. Many great athletes 138 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: are not articulate, but he was one. And more important, 139 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: he was open to having other people enquire about his life. 140 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: One of the first times I met him, he said, 141 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: you know, I'm basically a coward. I just feel that 142 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: boxing is way I can make a living. I don't 143 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: know who else I would, but in my heart I'm 144 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: filled with fear and fear of being humiliated. And then 145 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: he told me that he didn't want to be spotted 146 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: in public, particularly when he lost a fight. He had 147 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: a fake mustache, fake wig, had some clothing he wore. 148 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: He would masquerade, he would be or try to be 149 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: somebody else. And this went on for six or seven years. 150 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: But you know, getting to talk to people in moments 151 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: when they are feeling humiliated and underachieving is very much 152 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: something experienced by everybody, whether you're an actor, whether you're 153 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: a plumber, whether you're defeated candidate for office, everybody has 154 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: to know disappointment, a sense of rejection, defeat. It was 155 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: a different time in terms of protecting them, wasn't It 156 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: was a different time in terms of you weren't there 157 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: to pull the covers on these people. We live in 158 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: such tabloid times now we're writers regardless of their I mean, 159 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: I even see like with publications like The Times itself, 160 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: they can't help but have some kind of arms are 161 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: reduction of you, and you know, some kind of psychoanalysis 162 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: of you. They don't just write the facts. They don't 163 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: what was it like back then, I never I never 164 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: wrote about a person, and I've written about hundreds and 165 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: hundreds of people that I couldn't go to see again. 166 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: I never had someone that wouldn't see me. In fact, 167 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: my attitude was the story is never over. I could 168 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: write about someone that's a performing athlete or performing an actor, 169 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: and then ten years later and go back and see 170 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: them again. I wrote about Petro Tool my favorite person, 171 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty three. Not long after who did Lawrence Arabia. 172 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: I kept in touch with him for the next forty years. 173 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: I believe that people, as long as they're alive, have 174 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: more stories to tell. Just because you published an article 175 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: in the New York Times or the New Yorker magazine 176 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that the story is over. It means your 177 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: interest is over. But I never abated. I was always 178 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: curious and continue to be affiliated with people I wrote 179 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: about because I was sharing a part of my life 180 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: for them when I was young and they were young. 181 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: And as I've gotten older and they've gotten older, I 182 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: wonder how did it turn out? And I can see 183 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: in some of the public figures because you know what's happening, 184 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: because they're occasionally still in print. But my curiosity is 185 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: to write about them when their life is done. I mean, 186 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: when I wrote about Joe to Mago, his career was done. 187 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: I wrote about the ninety six he bitter, he was 188 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: very suspiciousncious, very suspicious, and of course being married to 189 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: Monroe compounded that suspicion of the press. Well, being a 190 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: celebrity is a perilous experience in a way. You never 191 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: have your life that you can feel is your own life, 192 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: because it is so penetrated by the nosy noses and 193 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: the aggressive and assaulting members of the media who could 194 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 1: rip you up and ruin your life in a way 195 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: that you can't make it up. When these characterizations, false 196 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: as they may be, are established in print, there's not 197 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: a lot you can do to change it. You might 198 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: outlive it to it. There's no correction page on the 199 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 1: correction the next day on page three, in a little 200 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: paragraph at the bottom of the page. It's not going 201 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: to amend things. It's not gonna make up for the 202 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: disturbance of your own character. Were you still writing for 203 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: you wrote Sinatra after you left the time, Yes, when 204 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: you were doing a lot of essays for Esquire. That's right. 205 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: I left the Times in the five after the Selma 206 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: March that I told you about, and you wrote Kingdom 207 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: in the Power Win three years later, see when I 208 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: after you left. Yeah, when I was on the Times, 209 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: I saw these guys who worked for the paper as stories. 210 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: I thought sometimes they were much more interesting than the 211 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: stories they were writing about about the outside. So when 212 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: you're at the Times, what was the time slack? Then 213 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: these characters. One of them was an obituary writer. I thought, 214 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 1: what an eccentric character. This guy was named Old and 215 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: Women and he was waiting for people to die. He 216 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: was very interested in other people dying because that was 217 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: his story. He kept alive. And they have their obituaries 218 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: written here. And I focused my first when I quit 219 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: the Times, I wanted to take these stories public. And 220 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: the first thing I did for Restaurant when I left 221 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: the paper in sixty five was to write a story 222 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: called Mr. Bad News, which is this obituary guy in 223 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: all the Women. The next thing I wanted to write 224 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: about was a guy named Harrison Salisbury. He was a 225 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: great corresponding. He was the guy that during the Vietnam War, 226 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: without permission, in fact, against the policies of this government, 227 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: went in Hanoi and found out that American bombers were 228 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: pitting the hospital schools against what Lyndon Johnson's administration was 229 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: telling us in n This was sixty six, the height 230 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: of the North Vietnamese beginning to triumph in that war, 231 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: and Salisbury penetrated that and wrote these stories and people 232 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: hated him in this Country's a communist great man in 233 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: my view. I wanted to write about him, and I 234 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: did write about him, but but first the editors said, 235 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: now you have to write about Sanctor. I said, I 236 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: don't want to write about No, go do it. Go 237 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: do it. So it's easy set up. Sanantra's press agent said, 238 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: it's a cover story. You go out there and talk 239 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: to you. Yeah, And he's doing this big NBC thing 240 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: called Sinantra Man and his music. It's all set up. 241 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: So I went out there the California and I was 242 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: supposed to see Sinatra the next Monday. After I arrived 243 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: and I called the press agent named Jim Mahoney said, Jim, 244 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: I'm here, the Beverley will share. When are we going 245 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: to see Mr? Sinatra? So? Oh, I'm sorry, he's got 246 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: a cold. Oh okay, maybe a few days. Yeah, check me. 247 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: But by the way, he said, Frank is feeling pretty 248 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: bad because that damn cronkite on CBS. We understand he's 249 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: doing something about Frank's allegric connection to mafia people. I said, 250 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: I'm not doing that well. Anyway, Sinantra's lawyer would like 251 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: to see you and maybe come to an agreement that 252 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: maybe you could submit the piece before we pump. I said, Jim, 253 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: I can't do that. You can't. I couldn't do it 254 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 1: on the Times, I can't do it on escort, I 255 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: can't do it anywhere. Sinatra's cold was a problem, but 256 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: the real problem was they wanted to take the piece 257 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: and do what I wanted. So I hung out there 258 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: for six weeks. I never talked to you. Hung out 259 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: there for six weeks, and what I was doing was 260 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: talking to little people that worked with Snata. It might 261 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: have been the woman who took care of his to 262 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: pay his former valet his habit, Dasher on Rodeo drive, 263 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: a guy named Dick, Carol Dick did that become Carol 264 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: and Company? That's right, all these people and they gave 265 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: me wonderful stories. And finally the press agency, are you 266 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: still here? What are you doing, Frank, Maybe so, but 267 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: it's a much better piece. So Frank sni as a 268 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: cold was done by talking these people. But the reason 269 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: I was so comfortable talking to minor characters is because 270 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: I liked the secondary characters and I get to know 271 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: them as the tailor shop and exactly the tailor shop 272 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: was a great trading chat. And the tailor you're fitting 273 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: people for a suit, and you know, I felt comfortable 274 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: with ordinary people. And my parents are working ordinary people. 275 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: So that worked out, and you get the story, even 276 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: though you don't get Sinatra. You met him, ran into him. 277 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: I saw him where, well, I saw him in a 278 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: few places. I saw him and a bar and he 279 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: got in a confrontation. Was some guy named Harlan Ellison 280 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: who was a shooting pool. Santa was just being a 281 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: little bit irritated, and he's and he lonely. He was 282 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: fifty years old and he had been dating me and 283 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: Pharaoh that and she wasn't around, and he had this 284 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: cold and he's feeling lousy, and so I just caught 285 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: that moment I described later on. I saw a Sinatra 286 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: at a prize fight actually about how an Ali was 287 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: fighting my friend Patterson and I called Patterson. I got 288 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: tickets to the fight because I knew Sators going to 289 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: be there, and of course he was there. What Sinator 290 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: later on was with Dean Martin and Joey Bishop and 291 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: and a few others went to the gambling in the casino. 292 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: I watched them gamble. Later on they went to the show, 293 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: and I just wrote a scene. In other words, I 294 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: was observing Sinatra. I wasn't talking to him, but I 295 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: was watching him. And he's had such an aura of 296 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: glamor and drama about him. He might have a bad 297 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: mood and to get in a fight with somebody, or 298 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: he might be in a good mood, and he's giving 299 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: people free dream A real magical man. And so you 300 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: didn't a man haunted? Didn't you feel that some of 301 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: these people you meet back then at the ats of 302 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: this business, at the route. It was different being famous 303 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: back then. But if you're extraordinarily talented, that goes for now, 304 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: as in the era of Frank Sinatra's fame, or before, 305 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: you're living up two expectations that cannot be long met. 306 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: If you are a great performer, it could be a musician, 307 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: it could be an opera singer, it could be We're 308 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: not at the Tabaldi, it could be Frank Sinata. What 309 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: you are at the height of your game, and you 310 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: have to continue to perform at that high level, as 311 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: supreme level. You're under constant pressure, stress, and the and 312 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: the stress of the critics who are not in love 313 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: with your success anymore. They're tired of his success. I'm 314 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: gonna contribute to your destructions. They're tired of your success, 315 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: and they are motivated by being destructive because they want 316 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: to be affecting your life. And the only way they 317 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: can do it is to target you to sink your 318 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: floating vessel. And when you're at the top of your game, 319 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 1: you not only gain a lot more fans, but you 320 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: gain a lot more enemies. I mean to go on 321 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: and on and on. So few can survive for so 322 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: long when you're at the top. Gyales never met Sinatra, 323 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: but after the singer died, he says he met Tina Sinatra, 324 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: his daughter, and she told him she liked his article. 325 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: Tales asked if her father had ever read it. He 326 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: probably did, she said, but he'd never admitted. I'm Alec 327 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. Take a 328 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: listen to our archive more in depth conversations with artists, policymakers, 329 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: and performers like Debbie Reynolds. We discovered we have something 330 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: in common. I'm Aries, I'm born April Fool's Day. I 331 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: just had my just Aries is very stubborn, but very 332 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: really good person. I mean, I don't think that there's 333 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: a bad bone in the body other than our temper. 334 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: That I you're known for your temper. But it's not true, right, 335 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: it's just if the process making up things. You know, 336 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: go to Here's the Thing dot org. This is Alec 337 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. In the 338 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: early eighties, one book found its way onto almost every 339 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: shelf in the country. Gay to Lees is thy Neighbor's Wife, 340 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: explored the uncharted territory of the hidden sex lives of Americans. 341 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: Ten years earlier, to Lees wrote about another subject previously underreported. 342 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: His book, Honor Thy Father, dove deep into the powerful 343 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: and very secretive Bonano crime family. Tales got the famously 344 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: press averse Bill Bonano to speak with such honesty and 345 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: introspection the Time magazine labeled to Lees the golden retriever 346 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: of personalized journalism. His first conversation with Bill was years 347 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: in the making. Well, I met him in my final 348 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: year of the New York Times, but I told you 349 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: one of the last stories. In addition, the Selma story 350 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: was the cover of the indictment of a Banano father 351 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: and son in federal court in Laura, Manhattan, and I 352 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: met him briefly through his lawyer. Bill Banana was my age. 353 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: I knew his father was born in Sicily. My father, 354 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: Jil Banana, was born in Sicily. My father was born 355 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,239 Speaker 1: in Calabria, close to Sicilians. So when I was at 356 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: a reporter, I went to Bill Banana during a recession 357 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: in the hearing in federal court, and I saw his 358 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: lawyer named Albert Krieger, and I said, Mr Krueger, this 359 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: is your client, Mr Banano, who's my age. Incidentally, someday 360 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: I like to write about him. And Krieger said, no comment, 361 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: no comment. I said, I'm not looking for a comment, 362 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: I'm looking for his story. So but someday, it doesn't 363 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: mean this year, next year, next sometime, because sometime this 364 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: guy is gonna die, your client, Mr Bill Banana, and 365 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: billber I was looking at me saying nothing. Half smiling, 366 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 1: and I said, somebody's gonna die. Hope it's not with 367 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: a bullet. But if he dies, his obituary is gonna 368 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: come from information of the Justice Apartment, the the the 369 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: cops are going to write the story. And so no comment, 370 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: no comment. I was okay. I kept writing and calling 371 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: him for the next year and a half sixties seven. 372 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: Mr Banano his lawyer, Albert Krueger, the younger Banana. Mr Banana, 373 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: will have dinner with you as long as off the record. 374 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: It's absolutely off. There He took me to some Johnny 375 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: johnson as a steakhouse near the u N run by 376 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: mafia guys. So the lawyer, Crieger and Bill Bonano and 377 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,239 Speaker 1: I three of us had dinner, had a steak, had 378 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: a drink, and I said, what about your family? He said, well, 379 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 1: they live at East Medow, Long Island. I said, I 380 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: have two young daughters. You have daughters. Why don't we 381 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: have dinner sometime? So Bill, but as well, Okay, you 382 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: can come to my house, bring your wife and bring 383 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: East Meadow. And my wife went to a convent school. 384 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: She's in Manhattanville graduate. My wife is and the wife 385 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: of Bill Bonano was also a convent educated girl. So 386 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: the two women, the the Irish Ganana Hern who married 387 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 1: gay to Lee, and our two daughters, Katherine and Pamela. 388 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: When in my little t RP sports car way out 389 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: to East Meadow and there were these big cattle accident 390 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: apart duct Tida Banano's house and he sees me pulling 391 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: in with his car. He welcomes us. We had dinner 392 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: and we met the bodyguards and all that stuff. On 393 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: the way out, he said, you know it's dangerous driving 394 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: that car with those children. He says, I said, oh, 395 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: I like, we love the car. Next day I get 396 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: a call he says, noise the thinking about your car. 397 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: I have a Cadillact for you. Oh no, I don't want. 398 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: But it's dangerous what you're doing. I said, listen, you 399 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: you live with your danger. I live in line, don't 400 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: worry about my way became friends. Took me two years 401 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: and finally, in nineteen seventy, he said, I'm going to 402 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: talk to you for the record, finally and I went 403 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: over there. He what do you think changed? He was, 404 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: I'll tell it was going to change. In nineteen seventy, 405 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: he'd been indicted for credit card fraud. He took a 406 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: stolen one of somebody took a card, and he was 407 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: running up a lot of bills, and they sent him 408 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: four years to go to Terminal Island in California where 409 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: he was going to go. In fact, they sent him 410 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: to jail. And his roommate was G. Gordon Liddy was 411 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: in a cell of Bill Bernannig Liddy who was in 412 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: the Watergate story. The only guy that had any integrity 413 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: and didn't route on the president was Lydia. So he 414 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: got along with Bill Bernano very very well. But he 415 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: understood Omerta. Yeah, I understood. So I became friendly with that. 416 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: I lived and he then was temporarily living in outside 417 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: of San Francis, go place near San Jose called California, 418 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: and I met his wife and I hung around there 419 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: for a whole year before he went to jail for 420 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: four years. That's where he did the story. And the 421 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: story was really in a way it indicated something in 422 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: the Sopranos approach to the story. I was interested in 423 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: family life, the wife, the children, and it was preordained 424 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: he would go into that business because of his father 425 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: or not. It was it was, it was, and why 426 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: not Salzburger and went into the business because it was 427 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: a value business. Okay, Gates at least didn't become a 428 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: tailor because it wasn't much of a business. Of My 429 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 1: father was Ralph Lauren. I might have worked Ralph Lauren, 430 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: you know, but I didn't, so I didn't become a tailor. 431 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: That Bill Banana would follow us absolutely. But when that 432 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: book came out, I made a fortune. I sold it 433 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: all over the world. I had a movie deal with CBS. 434 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: I made about a million dollars and more to come. 435 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: And I set up with my lawyer a trust fund 436 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: and educational trust fund, and I had put my two 437 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: daughters to his college. And the four Banano kids why 438 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: I'm at him, were six and seven eight years so 439 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: I them through college my lawyer, and one of them 440 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: became a doctor. And none of them became gangsters. So 441 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: we broke the mafia cycle. And uh. And that was 442 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: my big humanitarian achievement. Now let's talk about your other 443 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: humanitarian achievement, which in the several years, I'd run into 444 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: you in New York at events, and I'd see you 445 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: out there. I'd run into you any lanes, you know, 446 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: every now and then you know, you're so splendidly turned out, 447 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: and you're such a gentleman. And so I honestly look 448 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: at the book thy neighbor's wife, and I think this 449 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: is just another function of your curiosity. And do you 450 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: sit down when you write a book like that and say, 451 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna start doing some research and the research lead 452 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: you down these different alleyways and byways, and you just 453 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: keep going and saying this is my job. Did you 454 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: stop along the way and say, I gotta think about this. Well, 455 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,719 Speaker 1: let me tell the way it started. First of all, 456 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: I was reared as a Roman Catholic, and I because 457 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: of how old I am, I came out of the 458 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties. I'm really a product of post World War 459 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: two Catholicism. I was taught in my little town with 460 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: a very few Catholics, some Irish and little parish. I 461 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: was an older boy. I was one of the few 462 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: Italians in that parish. We had a strict code of behaviors. 463 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: You shouldn't masturbate, you shouldn't read filthy literature. You go 464 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: to Mass and you had the Catholic index. I was 465 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: warned not to read this, not to look at this 466 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: evil thoughts. All that when I come of age after 467 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: college and go to become a copy boy. The whole 468 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: policy with regard to morality was changing, and in the 469 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: nineties sixties spent the period of Vietnam War, the Hippies, 470 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: the sexual sexual Revolution, and so I was married at 471 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: the time when I had these two daughters, and one 472 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: night my wife and I went to P. J. Clarks 473 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: was eleven o'clock walking up Lexington Avenue. We live in 474 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: the sixties, and I saw this sign on on a 475 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: building on fifty eight and Lexington across some blooming Deals 476 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: said live nude models. I couldn't believe the sign, and 477 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: I said the nanny Bloomingdale across from blooming Live nude Models. 478 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: I said, let's go and check it out. So don't 479 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: you go, you go. I'm see you at home. I 480 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: grew up there and they're closing this and the guy says, 481 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: what is this live nude models. It's just so when 482 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: your wife said you go, you go, you go, she 483 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: didn't care. Now she said, I don't want to go up. 484 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: She did care, but she didn't care. She knew that 485 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: I was a very curious guy, essentially reporter who liked 486 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: to indulge my curious. You're open for anything. Absolutely true, 487 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: And the guy said this massage part it's clothes. Come 488 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: back tomorrow. Next day I went back. I was amazed. 489 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: A massage, Parlar. What's that? They gave you a book. 490 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: There were five or six photographs of different women rom one, 491 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: room two, room three, one four in each and he says, 492 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: a thirty bucks for massage. I just said, okay. I 493 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: picked somebody and they go to room three and some 494 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: young woman, articketed woman comes in with a Southern accent. 495 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 1: She says, take your clothes off, and I said, this 496 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: is a massage you're giving me? Yes, yes, take your 497 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,360 Speaker 1: clothes up. Looking clothes off. She took her top off, 498 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: but she was wearing a little mini skirt and said 499 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: that you have a southern accent. Yes, where are you 500 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: from Alabama? She's want of Alabama. She could not care less. 501 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: Hurry up, I say, you knew her be reunited. What 502 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: it was and what they do? Masturbate you? Incredible to 503 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: masturbates you for thirty dollars. And I was listening while 504 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: being masturbated and enjoying it. I was also had my ear. 505 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: I'm wondering who is this girl? She told me she 506 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: was working at going to school a hunter in the 507 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: daytime and working the massage party in the latter afternoons. 508 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: She was a college educated person. I later on found 509 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: out there over college girls and this massage collars. I 510 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: was amazed at college girls. I shot a movie in 511 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: a bar in New Orleans and all the strippers in 512 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: the bar. We rented a bar and they hired these 513 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: women that were real strippers. And I talked to this 514 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: one girl, you know, as they say, cut and she 515 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: put the bathroom on and she sit down and smoke 516 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: a cigarette. I said, what do you do? She said, 517 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to Tulane and never in years. And that 518 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 1: was true. So I thought to myself, while enjoying the 519 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: process and being massaged to orgasm, no doubt I'm participating fully. 520 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: At the second time, my second head is there's a 521 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 1: story here. Who is this girl? Who are these women? 522 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: This is nineteen seventy three, seventy four, seventy five, so 523 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: different from the altar boy or the young journalists that 524 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: I was in. Nine people my age I was then 525 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: in my thirties are coming to places like this and 526 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: coming to this place indeed, and the young women are 527 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: not the downtrodden hooker or the little African American drug 528 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: addic junky street. Uh, they're educated people, and they're educated 529 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: in a way that is not so prohibited, that is 530 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: not so restrictive, that is not so catholic guilt mentality. 531 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: You can't do this, you can't do that. But you 532 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: don't think that they were doing this as a or 533 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: do you believe they were doing this as some form 534 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: of sexual self expression? Were they people who were they 535 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: were making money, they were paying the way through exploited 536 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: But the point was they weren't being exploited. They were 537 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: exploiting the men like me. But I was both typical 538 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: of the male clientele. At the same time, as I said, 539 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: I have a bit of a split personality. I'm also curious. 540 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: I'm never without having a sense of what I'm doing, 541 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: who I'm doing with. I'm never fully engaged. You're doing 542 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: and you're watching a lawyer, I am truly a lawyer. 543 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: From the massage parlor near blooming Deals, where does it 544 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: go from there? I go to the massage parlers and 545 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: I finally I go to a person who runs a 546 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: massage back, can I manage one? So I managed a 547 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: massage Polar for six months. Anybody in your life know 548 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: you're doing this? I told my wife. Of course. In fact, 549 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: my wife was working at Random House. She's been and 550 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: she's still. And of course they had when you tell 551 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: a Random House editor, who's your wife? She was, I'm 552 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: gonna go, right, I'm gonna go run on the not 553 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: go to a massage parlor or even if I got 554 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: some kind of a jones for a while, where I'm 555 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: gonna go. If I'm gonna go run one, what did 556 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: she say? You told it was for a book. Don't forget. 557 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: She had mafia gangsters in her house before, and we 558 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: had bodyguard. Somebody tells me she preferred the mafia gangsters 559 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: Tosagay mafia people more moral. But you know, but I said, 560 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: I think there's a story here. There was a story there, 561 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: and I wanted her to come up. The Random House 562 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: building with them was fifty third and third Avenue. My 563 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: massage Polar was fifty four Street and third Avenue. I said, said, 564 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: come on up, I want you to meet some But 565 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: at that time I knew the massus is by name. 566 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: I was taking the lunch, I was getting them to 567 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: keep notes for me. I was doing so your days 568 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: as a customer over, that's right, right, But the only 569 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: reason I know these people was because I was a 570 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: customer and I cultivated Their association with me was someone 571 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: once you worked, once you worked to the massage part 572 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: of you had the willpower to not stick your straw 573 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: and the punch bowl there you there were no more. 574 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: That's right. I graduated, so so to speak from being 575 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: a consumer to being a management being, that's right. And 576 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: I was keeping notes, and I was cultivating the girls, 577 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: and I wanted to use their names. My idea for 578 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: a book was to have it in a massage pollar. 579 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: The two generations, the people like me, the customer and 580 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: the mail cust sneeking in for a little, you know, 581 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: when getting getting your oil change, and about fifteen minutes 582 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: for thirty bucks, and the women, being of a different generation, 583 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,479 Speaker 1: very liberated to do this for money and not feel guilty. 584 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: They were, They weren't victim. Does it doesn't end with 585 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: the massage parlor phase. The book goes on the go. 586 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: But here's what happened. I finally got the characters that 587 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: would give me their name, and then I invited my 588 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: masseus and her boyfriend home to dinner with my wife, 589 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: and what happened was the boyfriend hit on my wife, 590 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: who was cooking dinners crazy and the Masseus got mad, 591 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: and my wife said, this is the end of it. 592 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to be associated with your research. But 593 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: I lost the masseus for my story. She got very angry. 594 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: So then I went to California and I heard about 595 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: this place called Sandstone. It's a club of nudie. It's 596 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: a beautiful mansion on the top of his canyon. And 597 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: I was amazed that I made my whole story there. 598 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: I became a nudist. This guy that wears three piece suits, 599 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: son of a tailor, becomes a nudist. Were there? I 600 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: was there six months, six months, and I would come 601 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: back and for I meet my wife sometimes we meet 602 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: in Chicago, Happy. She completely knew what you were doing. Yeah, 603 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: I didn't know about it, and she wasn't happy. Journey 604 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: the marriage survival. When I was getting publicity, one time 605 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: an article in New York magazine, an Evening in the 606 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: Nude with Gate to Lisa, a devastating piece and my 607 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: devasiting piece about you. Yeah, this crazy sex pervert. I 608 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: was a pervert. Really for a period maybe two or 609 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: three years. But I went through it and I got 610 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: a book out of it. One of the sad things 611 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: about it. I took the book seriously and it's a 612 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: serious book. But I became known by that book primarily. 613 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: And you think it overshadowed your other books? Oh, clearly 614 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: did that upset you? It did then, but then in 615 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: recent years it has been recognized as a serious book. Yeah. 616 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: Do you think writing has changed for people? Like when 617 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: you when you when you look at Roth, when you 618 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: look at your contemporaries achieve or uptick and all these men. 619 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: Do you think that those people, uh, people can have 620 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: careers like them again now or is it the same 621 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: as my business where you just can't have those careers anymore. 622 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: They were of their time. I don't think it was 623 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: ever easy. You can still do it now. What has 624 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: hurt my line of work is the tape recorder. I 625 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: don't use the tape recorder. I hang around with people. 626 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily to use shirtboards. I use shirtboards and 627 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: you round off the corner so they fit in your 628 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: have a little package. I wish we have we had televisions. 629 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: I have these things here. I'll leave someone, but there 630 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: are good writers now. You see most of the good 631 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: writers now are in the New Yorker. But there are 632 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: not enough magazines that will support writing that requires traveling 633 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: in order to write well. Sometimes you have to experiences 634 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: on site research. You have to travel. You can't do 635 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: it through Google. You have to get off your get 636 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: on the train, and get on a plane, go somewhere, 637 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: and that runs an expense account, so the cost of 638 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: But big magazines a vanity Fair will support you if 639 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: you have a hot subject, whereas the New Yorker will 640 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: support you. And you could just not necessarily be writing 641 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,959 Speaker 1: about a major movie star, but you can be writing 642 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: about some ordinary person if it's a good enough story. 643 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: But it's very hard, but it always was hard, so 644 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: I don't think it's the end of an era. I 645 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: still think that there are young people that care about 646 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: writing and can write well, and we'll have the patience 647 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: and dedication to do the research. You have to do 648 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: the research. There's no shortcuts. It's no shortcuts. You can 649 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: read gay to Liza's story about retracing his steps across 650 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: the Edmund Pettis Bridge in Selma fifty years after the march, 651 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: along with his original account from nineteen sixty five at 652 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: the New York Times website him Alec Baldwin, and you're 653 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: listening to Here's the Thing, M.