WEBVTT - Will The US End The War Between Congo and Rwanda? 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:10.440 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. The Democratic Republic of 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.480 Congo and Rwanda have agreed to bring an end to 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:16.759 conflict in the Eastern Congo, where millions of people have 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.760 died and multitudes have been displaced over the past three decades. 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:25.080 Today the violence and destruction comes to an end and 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:29.480 the entire region begins a new chapter of hope and opportunity, harmony, 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:31.880 prosperity and peace. 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.680 The US broker deal aims to bring a halt to fighting, 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:38.559 and the countries have committed to work together to develop 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:42.080 the natural resources that lie along their shared border. 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:44.199 If you stay on board, I think there are so 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:48.360 many perspectives that we can transform our partnerships through and 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.879 that can usher in an era of prosperity, of growth, 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:54.680 and of shared bilateral relationships. 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.760 Because this is a very rich region with the cross 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:02.760 border trade with thes, with the natural wealth. 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:04.480 So with the. 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.000 US standing by side by side to be the one 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:09.720 and DRC, we believe that we will achieve a long 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:10.480 time peace. 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.399 On today's podcast, we'll look at how this deal came 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:15.959 about and find out whether it has a chance of 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:22.880 succeeding against a long standing atmosphere of distrust between the neighbors. 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.640 I'm Jennifer's Abasajap and this is the Next Africa Podcast, 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.360 bringing you one story each week from the continent driving 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.560 the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:40.280 can provide. Joining me to help unpack this deal is 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:44.160 our Congo reporter Michael Cavanaugh. Michael, thank you so much 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:47.160 for coming on the podcast today. It's so nice to 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.200 speak with you because you have been in and out 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:53.280 of Congo for quite some time, so I've been wanting 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.120 to dissect this with you for quite a while. 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.600 How are you doing good. Thanks, It's an exciting moment 0:01:58.640 --> 0:01:59.559 in Congress history. 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:03.520 We all, yeah, we all hope that that's a good 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.760 place to start. Let's just start maybe with the conflict itself. 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.880 This as many people who've been listening to the podcast 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.760 maybe do or don't know, this conflict has been going 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.840 on for decades. Maybe you can take us back to 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:20.080 the genesis of the conflict. 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:24.560 Really sure, it's a really complicated conflict, which is one 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:26.480 of the reasons why it's persisted for so long. 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:28.720 Right, and you know we're talking today. 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:31.040 Mostly about Rwanda and Congo, so we can trace the 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:34.079 origins of that conflict back to the nineteen ninety four 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:35.320 genocide in Rwanda. 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:36.799 There was a civil. 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.200 War going on in Rwanda that turned into a genocide 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.200 in nineteen ninety four against the Rwandan Tutsi population, the 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:43.240 minority population. 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:45.200 More than eight hundred thousand. 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.000 Maybe even more than a million Tutsis and moderate Hujoos 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.359 were killed during that time. The perpetrators of the genocide 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.120 led across the border into eastern Congo, and that completely 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:59.720 destabilized eastern Congo and it's really been destabilized ever since. 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:03.040 It turned into a civil war in Congo that overthrew 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.960 the dictator at the time, and it turned into wars 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:11.359 between Rwanda and Uganda, which is also a neighbor and Congo. 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.600 And over the years, Rwanda has continued to support proxy 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:19.960 rebel groups, armed groups in Eastern Congo, it says, to 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.200 protect itself and to continue to fight some of the 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.520 remnants of those perpetrators of the genocide, or people at 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.800 least with links to the perpetrators of the genocide. So, 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:32.560 I mean, that's really the origin of the conflict we're 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:34.960 seeing today. That, of course, it's also linked to a 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.440 lot of other conflicts in the region and the natural 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.720 resources and political power and things like that. 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:44.320 And Michael, you just brought up a number of different 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:49.240 other countries and maybe proxies that are potentially involved in 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:54.480 the fighting. Can you just outline who are the significant 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:58.760 players maybe that are involved that you think would be 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:01.200 helpful for listeners to know about. 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:03.280 I mean, in some ways, you could talk about the 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:07.160 Congo conflict as involved in many many countries in the world. 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:09.640 Lots of different countries have had stakes over the years, 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:14.200 have tried to intervene through UN peacekeeping missions, through other 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:19.840 deployment of military, local African nations that have deployed local military. 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:22.360 But really, you know, I think the most important thing 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:24.800 to think about are the neighboring countries right of this 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:26.960 region which is called the Great Lakes Region, and there 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:32.360 you have Uganda, Burundi, Rwanda, and Congo. We'll just focus 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.760 on them. And Eastern Congo, as I said, has been 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:37.120 destabilized and because of that, there are a lot of 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:39.880 more than a hundred rebel groups, armed groups, I should say, 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:43.000 are active in that region. And again they're fighting over 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:47.440 ethnicity and power and local resources. But some of them 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.440 are also rebel groups that are opposing the governments. 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.440 Of Rwanda, of Uganda of Burundi. 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.800 And so because of that, those neighboring countries have had 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.800 a stake for a long time in Eastern Congo's stability 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:03.760 and they regularly intervene. All three countries have soldiers right 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.039 now in Eastern Congo. The thing is is that those 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.280 soldiers that end up in Eastern Congo often end up 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:13.240 in getting themselves involved in mineral smuggling or other resource 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.440 smuggling too, so that those three countries have economic connections 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:20.400 to Eastern Congo as well. So the conflict has many dimensions. 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.400 Which brings us to twenty twenty five. Earlier this year, 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.719 we had you on the podcast talking about in particular 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:29.839 the M twenty three rebel group taking over some of 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:35.240 the cities in Congo, which makes this recent peace deal 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.800 a bit surprising that we got here. Can you just 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.719 talk about the timeline of twenty twenty five and really 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:44.400 how we actually reached this peace steal. 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:48.880 Yeah, So the M twenty three is this another proxy 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.320 rebel group supported by Rwanda, even though Rwanda says they 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:56.000 deny it, but you know, they have said that their army, 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.919 the Rwanded army, has been taking defensive measures against the 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:03.000 instability and Eastern Congo. And we reported on a UN 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.800 experts report this week which says that the Rwanda's actually 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:12.960 straight up directed the M twenty three in Or earlier 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.960 this year to take over two of the main trading 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.200 hubs in Eastern Congo, cities of more than a million 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:22.479 people right on the border with Rwanda, and the M 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.479 twenty three invaded both these cities, took them over and 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.040 now controls a huge swath of Eastern Congo, some estimate 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:32.800 ten percent of the entire land area of Congo. And 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:38.320 Rwanda was directly involved in that. And you know, I 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:40.599 think the question to ask right now is really like 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:44.000 what does Rwanda want right? Does Rwanda want stability? Does 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:48.080 Rwanda want access to Eastern Congo's resources? Is Rwanda really 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:52.599 concerned with enemy rebel groups there? What does Rwanda want 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:55.640 to do with the M twenty three. And so what 0:06:55.640 --> 0:07:00.680 we've seen now is that other international actors got involved, 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:04.440 because you know, technically this is a violation of Congo's sovereignty. 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.200 And so we've seen the AU get involved, We've seen 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:11.000 Angola get involved, We've seen the East African community, the 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:15.200 Southern African Development community, I mean dozens of multilateral groups, 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:19.600 kuttars involved, dozens of nations are involved trying to fix 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:24.040 this conflict that has been intractable. And yet Rwanda persists 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.520 along with the M twenty three at taking over land 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:29.640 and occupying this land. So we know that they must 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:30.200 have a reason. 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:34.160 And Michael, what does Rwanda say about their involvement in 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:34.800 the conflict. 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:40.160 Rowanda has continued to deny that it supports the M 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:45.760 twenty three. It says it's applying defensive measures, it's protecting itself. 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:50.120 Rowanda denies that it is trying. 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:53.320 To fight a war to overthrow the Congolese government, but 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:57.640 it does say that it has serious concerns about stability 0:07:57.640 --> 0:07:58.400 in eastern Congo. 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:00.160 Now, what the Unit It. 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.920 States has decided is that if the US can get 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:07.120 involved in finding piece, you know, in conjunction with these 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:11.040 other actors, right, can we convince Rwanda, meaning can we 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.400 the United States convince Rwanda to lay down its weapons, 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.160 to pull back and maybe find a way to develop 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:19.520 the region together. And so this is this is the 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:22.040 theory behind this peace deal that they signed last week 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:25.120 the two countries with the United States as a witness. 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.440 Is it actually a peace steal though it's how do 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.640 how are we defining peace? I guess, Michael, right. 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:33.120 Well, we're not there yet, right. 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.040 I mean, I think you know, we've I talk a 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:38.440 lot to all sides, and I would say the piece 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:40.880 is a process, and it's very much a process right here, 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.320 and it's going to be a long process, right. And 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:46.240 there are multiple steps to this process. The first is 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.360 just the signature and the agreement, right, create a framework. 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.160 The next is this piece agreement does not included agreement 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.160 with the M twenty three, so there's a separate There 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.920 are separate talks ongoing in Qatar with the M twenty 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.480 three with Congo and the M twenty five, and Rwanda 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:05.240 as part of this piece agreement in Washington, has agreed 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:06.000 to support that. 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:06.440 Right. 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.240 So that's a big deal or a big step, but 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.400 that has to be resolved. Then there is another armed 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.640 group that Rwanda has complained about for years. It's called 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:17.920 let's just call it the f deal are the Democratic 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.400 Forces for the Liberation of Rwanda. That's a group that 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.240 has links to the perpetrators of the genocide in nineteen 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.520 ninety four, and Rwanda has always been worried about that group. 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:30.679 So Congo's has agreed to take steps to neutralize that group, 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:34.280 and then Rwanda is going to have to withdraw it's 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.160 what it caused, its defensive measures, and then we'll have 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.040 to see them twenty three lay down its weapons, and 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.480 then there'll have to be some kind of integration back 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:44.840 into the army or some kind of way to deal 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:48.280 with all these rebels who will have. 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:49.920 Laid down there are arms at all. 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.160 And then Congo needs to take over eastern Congo again 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.320 and the state needs to return. So you can see 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.480 there are a lot of steps, and the hope is 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:00.880 that there's so much. We've always talked about Congo as 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.679 the forgotten war, and I don't think you can call 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.880 it that anymore. We've got the US paying attention very 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:10.480 very closely, to the point where Donald Trump has brought 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.840 these foreign ministers into his oval office. He's going to 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:17.199 bring the presidents of both countries, hopefully if everything goes well, 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.559 into Washington this month. And then you have Culture involved, 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:22.960 and you have all these other countries that are trying 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.400 to bring an end to this conflict that's persisted for 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.040 so long. So you know, we'll see there's a lot 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:32.839 of attention to it, and the hope is maybe all 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:37.200 that attention could bring results that haven't come about in 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.160 the thirty years of this conflict. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.679 And Michael, stick with us. We're going to take a 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:43.960 quick break, but when we come back, we'll look at 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:46.440 the role that the US might play, as you were 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.360 just speaking to there, and what the chances are that 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:51.240 this deal has of holding. 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:52.319 We'll be right back. 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.679 Welcome back, Congo Reporter Michael Kavanaugh is still with us. 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:06.040 We're talking about the peace deal between the DRC and 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:08.760 Rwanda that was signed in Washington, d C. 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:09.720 Last week. 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.040 Michael, you were just outlining before we went to the break, 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:16.680 the US obviously played quite a big role in brokering 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:20.319 this deal. How much of a role will they play though, 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.640 in ensuring that it holds. You just mentioned that President 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.760 Trump did invite the presidents of both the DRC and 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:30.560 Rwanda to the White House. It remains to be seen 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:35.520 whether that actually happens. But do you, based on your sources, 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.600 is there discussion happening behind the scenes with the US 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:45.200 playing a big role in making sure that this remains intact. 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.320 When the m twenty three, with rwand and support took over, 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:52.720 those two main training comes in Eastern Congo. Earlier this year, 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.000 President Felix Jessicketty, the President of Congo, reached out to 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.520 the United States and proposed something that was based on 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.440 what he'd seen Donald Trump doing with Ukraine, which is 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:03.520 a minerals. 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:04.280 For security partnership. 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:08.679 Right, please support us in our fight against Rwanda, and 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.120 in exchange, you can have access to our mineral riches, 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.240 our natural resources. Congo is the biggest country in sub 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.720 center in Africa. It is one of the richest countries 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.080 in the world in terms of natural resources. And so 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.600 Congo has proposed that the United States get involved in 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.720 Eastern Congo, but in Congo in general. Congo is the 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.480 second biggest source of copper. It is the biggest source 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:35.200 of cobalt, which is in most electric vehicle batteries for example. 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.800 It has gold, It has a mineral called tantalem which 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:42.160 is in the capacitors and all of our portable electronics. 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:46.440 So it's an extremely rich place. And the thinking on 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:48.760 the Congolese side and now on the United States side 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.880 is that if US companies and if the US government 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:56.720 mainly through the Development Finance Corporation the DFC, can invest 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:59.640 in Congo, then the US will have a stake in 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.840 the game, and if the US has skin in the game, 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.680 they are more likely to continue to pay attention to 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:10.160 the conflict there and care about stability and care about peace. 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.000 So if they have a short term, medium term, and 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.320 maybe even a long term investment in the region, then 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.000 maybe they'll make sure to hold all actors to account. 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.400 And Michael, before we let you go, sentiment on the ground, 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.760 because you are one of the few who gets to 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:30.320 go in and out of the country. What's the feeling 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:32.040 like in Congo of this peace deal? 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.079 Oh gosh, I mean, it's a cliche to say cautious optimism. 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:40.160 I think that I would say people don't trust Rwana 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.959 and Congo period and. 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:45.000 There's a lot of skepticism. 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:47.400 That said, I think that this piece deal has brought 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:51.840 more legitimacy to the Congoi's government. There was a moment 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:53.719 a couple of months ago where it looked like the 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:55.880 government would fall, that there would even be a coup, 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:58.080 you know, or that the N twenty three would even 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.600 try to take over the country. This piece deal, you know, 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:06.400 aligning with the United States has given presidents to getting 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.840 more legitimacy. It looks like there's going to be more 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:15.439 investment in the country. So there's some optimism because of that. 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:17.840 But the next step is the twenty three piece deal. 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.640 Until we see that, you can't think of this PCO 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:23.800 ever holding right, and then you have to see the 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:27.480 Conglese go after this this fdo R rebel group, and 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:28.360 then you have to see. 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:30.840 The rewand and start to withdraw. And those are sort 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:32.840 of the steps that we need to see over the 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:34.680 next say three months. 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.200 But as the Conglese Foreign Minister said to me the 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.400 other day, she say, trust is still a long way off. 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:41.120 For now what we care about his accountability. 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:44.920 Michael Kavanaugh, thank you so much for joining us. Really 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.840 fantastic reporting, as always appreciated, and you can read all 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:52.280 of Michael's reporting on the Piece deal on Bloomberg platforms. 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:57.400 Now here's some of the other stories we've been following 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:02.080 across the region this week. Nigeria's main opposition parties, which 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.440 have agreed to unite to contest twenty twenty seven elections 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.200 under the banner of the little known African Democratic Congress, 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.720 appointed two interim leaders to steer preparations for their campaign, 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.960 and African ride hailing startup move is close to raising 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:21.720 one point two billion dollars in a debt round that 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.760 will help it finance a rollout of an autonomous driving 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:29.120 fleet with Alphabet's Waimo and expand in the US. People 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.200 familiar with the matter said, and you can follow these 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:36.000 stories across Bloomberg, including the Next African Newsletter. Will put 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:41.680 a link to that in the show notes. This program 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.560 was produced by Adrian Bradley and tiwa Adebio. Don't forget 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.320 to follow and review this show wherever you usually get 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.240 your podcasts. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks as always for listening.