WEBVTT - #562 Jason Flom with Rafael Madrigal 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:03.680 I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:05.320 even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.920 I was brought up like cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.639 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:15.680 do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:21.800 everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:23.200 I know I'm innocent. 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:24.840 I know I had nothing to do with this. 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:27.240 How is this possible? 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:30.560 I grew up trusting the systems. I grew up believing 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.639 that every human being should do the right thing. And 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:35.519 that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:37.680 Coore other people, I wasn't going to break anyone to 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:40.600 get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:42.239 the fact that I break my way out of my 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:42.840 wife's death. 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.440 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.120 prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:51.839 Our system. 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:54.000 Since I've been out ten years, it's coming a little ways, 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:55.480 but it's still broken. 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.480 I totally little trusting humanity after what's happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:04.560 This is wrongful conviction. 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.840 Welcome back to wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm that's me, 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:29.959 And today I have an extraordinary person as my guest, 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:32.240 a man named Rafael Madrigal. 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.880 Raphael, welcome to the show. Good and Raphael. 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:39.000 You know I often say it, I'm going to say 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:41.040 to you, I'm happy you're here, but i'm sorry you're 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:45.200 here because there's absolutely no excuse for what happened to you. 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:48.960 And as a member of as an American and as 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.320 a human, I apologize to you on behalf of everyone 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:57.640 because this this story, it literally makes no sense whatsoever. 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.520 Are you know better than anyone and I and. 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:03.480 I want to get into all those details because your 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.680 story has so many things that we see again and 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.720 again right. It has mistaken eye witness identification. It has 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:15.040 an incompetent defense attorney. It has an air tight alibi 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:19.679 that anybody in you know, any with any degree of 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:23.399 sanity or education or knowledge of justice with nobody could 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:26.880 have possibly convicted you based on those factors. But we're 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:29.040 going to unravel all of that and find out how 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:31.160 you got charged with first degree murder and how you 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:33.040 got exonerated as we go along. 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:36.079 But before we do that, let's go back, like at a. 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.200 Time, machine to when you were a kid. Where where 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:40.520 did did you grow up in California? 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.320 Yes? I did. I grew up in Los Angeles. 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:47.600 So was it a difficult childhood or a happy family life? 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:47.799 What? 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:50.200 What can you paint a picture for us to the audience? 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:51.520 What what was it like growing up? 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:56.960 Actually it was a more lifestyle. Yeah, it was in 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:00.239 a rough neighborhood, but I mean my early teen years, 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.679 I mean it was just the bigger neighborhood. Everybody was 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:05.920 going on and you know, trying to find themselves. But 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:08.760 later on, if we started getting older, then yeah, things 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:13.280 started changing. You know. It wasn't rough neighborhood. A lot 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.760 of gang violence around, and as the nineties started hitting many, 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:18.760 I started getting a little bit worse and worse and 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:22.000 worse as time went along, you know. But as myself, 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:23.919 I mean, I made the best of it. I graduated 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.320 from high school. I got a job right after high school. 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:30.000 College wasn't for me. I tried it for about a year, 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:32.000 and I think, you know what, college is going to 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:34.680 follow me? So you know, I decided, you know what, 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:36.920 I think I read the work and being that I 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.480 was already going to be a farther at nineteen. Then 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:41.760 you know, I knew my responsibility and. 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.560 That's and both of those things you just mentioned are 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:46.920 important parts of your story. Right, The fact that you 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.120 did become a father very young, and we know what 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.800 this wrongful incarceration took from you. We're going to discuss that. 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.760 But also the fact that you did start working very 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:00.200 young is an important thing as your story goes. Was 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:04.360 along because of the fact that in your alibi, what 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.160 made it so air tight, I mean, I was gonna 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:10.520 say bulletproof, you know, is the fact that you were 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:15.240 a highly skilled person who was the only person that 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:18.599 could operate the machinery at your job, which meant that, 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:20.839 you know, there's no way you could have committed this 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:24.440 crime fifty miles away when you were the only guy 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:26.279 there that knew how to do what you were doing, 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:28.680 and the whole factory would have shut down, right, So 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.360 the whole operation was so But let's get into that 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:36.840 by way of this crime, right, because it was I mean, 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:38.920 this sounds like it was a hit, right, I mean, 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:40.479 this was a this was a shooting. 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:42.159 Can you can you explain the crime itself? 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:44.880 Obviously you weren't there, but you're super familiar with there 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:46.839 was a guy named Aguilera, right correct. 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.920 The victim his name was ricordagu I mean I ended 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:52.000 up seeing him when he came as a fighting court, 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:54.600 But other than that, I've never had seen the gentleman. 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:55.039 You know. 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.599 It wasn't dry by shooting. It was a game that 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:01.640 was going on at the time cloth one list. You know, 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.760 I was forty five miles away from the incident, you know, 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:10.320 nowhere near it, and I was still put in a 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.239 situation where I lost ten years of my life. 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.279 Well how did and and you were senced to twenty 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.360 five to life, which is I mean unimaginable to think 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:24.279 of how that must have you know, just devastated you. 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.039 But how did your name come up in the first 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:30.240 place when you so obviously weren't there and you could 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:32.880 prove it. And who was it that first? I know 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.760 there were witnesses that identified you, but how did they 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:37.359 even come to bring your name up? 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:39.080 Did you ever find out how that happened? 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.480 Or it all started off with the picture that this 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.880 Los Angeles sheriff had on myself. The picture had took 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.599 me when I was I had just turned sixteen years 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.599 old at the time of the crime. I was twenty 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.960 five already, So they used that picture to show the 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.920 witnesses and the victim, and they all started with one 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.719 of the witnesses maid that I resembled the shooter. 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:03.920 Okay, wait a minute now, first of all, wait, wait, 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.159 let's go back. Let's go back for a second. So, Raphael, 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.760 you were sixteen when your picture was taken. 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:10.039 Great? 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:12.599 Is it even appropriate for that picture to still even 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.520 be in the books? Isn't that supposed to be sealed 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:16.400 after you turn eighteen? 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.200 I'm not sure. I don't know how exactly that works, 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:23.600 or is any law that prohibits them from using the 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:24.920 almost a ten year old picture? 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:27.440 And what was the original? Sorry? 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.360 Interrupted, but why was your picture in the book in 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.120 the first place? What we what were you picked up 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:33.800 for when? And I don't judge anything because I know 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:35.560 where you grew up, as a lot of people get 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:37.039 picked up for a lot of things, they do the 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.640 sweeps and everything else. And you know, we've had people 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.160 talk about how they were almost tricked into having their 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:44.960 pictures taken and put into the mug Shot book when 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.560 they were just barely teenagers. And it's also sort of 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.839 ridiculous to point out that you were they were using 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.080 a nine year old can imagine how much your appearance 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:58.000 changes from sixteen to twenty five. But yeah, so why 0:06:58.120 --> 0:06:59.520 was your picture in the book in the first place? 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:01.720 A picture that I said it was taken when I 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:04.479 was sixteen, when they were in front of my house 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:09.120 and gang unit ended up swooping by and everybody that 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:11.520 was there inside my house. They pulled us home out 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.000 and they took pictures of us and they went on 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.440 their way. Never did I imagine in my life that 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.480 that picture would come in hunt me almost ten years later. 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.480 So, yeah, so you were literally doing nothing, standing around 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:25.520 in front of your own house and they took a 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.400 picture that ended up actually turning your life completely upside 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:31.000 down for the most random of reasons. And we'll get 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:34.320 into that too. The fact is that we know that 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:40.280 there are ways to improve eyewitness identification procedures, including the 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:42.920 fact that I'm guessing in your case, like in most cases, 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.880 they were using six pictures on that page in the 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:49.480 Mugshot book. And you know, decades of research have now 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.920 proven scientifically that the human mind, if you give it 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.360 that many options, will go towards somebody that sort of 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:58.960 resembles a little bit. They'll start you'll start to make 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:04.320 up things subconsciously that don't even that aren't real because 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:08.080 you see all these different pictures. So by making the 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.800 simple change of putting one picture per page, we know 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:15.320 that the incidents of wrongful identifications go down by around 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.920 fifty percent. So that's the change that we're trying to 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:21.280 get made all over the country and in any case. 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:24.880 So so I mean, this is this is an unbelievable thing. 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:29.120 So you're now far away, have no idea what's going 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:31.880 on somewhere in a police station in these Los Angeles, 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:35.720 these witnesses, one of them randomly pickts your photo and 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:36.480 then what happens. 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.400 And then from there, I mean, the night marriages started 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:42.959 from when the incident happened, I believe the incident took 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:48.760 please and from there after the incidet I believe, they 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:51.640 showed the pictures, the pictures to the nick to the witnesses, 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.720 tell me about that to the witnesses, and fifteen days 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:58.280 later after the incident, that's when I got picked up. 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:00.400 I got picked up on anchel of twentieth. 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:00.960 July the twenties. 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:03.920 So paint this picture for us place, So you're July 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:04.959 the twenties, where were you. 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:07.760 July twenty, I had just dropped off my wife at work. 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:09.960 I was because she went a little bit earlier than 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.079 I did. I dropped lass at work, I was heading 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:14.760 back home to get ready myself. And when I was 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:16.960 driving into I used to live in a Culdsfec at 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:18.800 the time. When I was driving in, I noticed that 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:21.720 there was a bunch of a shelf deputy patrol cars 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:23.719 on the side of the street and they were all 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.560 putting under gear. And uh, I see them. I said, Oh, 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:28.440 they're going to give somebody a rude awakening right now. 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:31.280 Little did I know they were going to my house. 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:31.959 And you. 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.120 I read an article about you in San Francisco magazine 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.079 where you were talking about how you were literally, I'm 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:40.800 going to quote you. You said, I was literally living in 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.200 the American dream and then I got everything pulled out 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:44.000 from under my feet. 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:46.800 You had two kids at this point, your. 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.600 Wife was pregnant, You had a good job, right, so 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.480 life was looking pretty pretty damn good. 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:56.640 Right, Yeah, I mean literally, I had we had just 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.199 thirty had been a year ago. We had bought on 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.640 in a house, so I mean, I mean, therefore we 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:03.680 were striving for it. The fire own house and retired 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:06.440 paint where so I mean we put we put our 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:09.120 nesteak together and everything that we have saved up for 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.319 we eased to move. But little did we know that, 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.480 I mean, this nightmare was going to start at night 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:16.079 of twenty year. 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:18.839 So you had two boys six and three and a 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.080 little girl on the way and then you get picked 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:25.880 up taken in for questioning. I assume right, and explain it, 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:27.600 explain that process. 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.160 Well. The funny point is when I when I see 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:33.920 that take the sales patrol course in the coulda sat. 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.160 I came to the stop sign and they had a 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.840 picture of me, a blown up picture that they were 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:41.600 going to my house with. So when I got to 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:44.080 the stop sign, one of the deputies that had the picture, 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:46.200 it happened to me he had the pie was looking 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:48.400 at the picture at the time when I turned around 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:50.720 and I looked at and relactizing to each other, and 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:52.440 he drew his weapon on me and he yelled at 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.760 him trying to get off my map. So yeah, sure enough, 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:57.640 they got me off the van, and they said the 0:10:57.679 --> 0:10:59.120 first one who tell me all, they need to talk 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.679 to you down the station. So I tell them all 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:03.400 of this here because they need to talk to me, 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:06.280 and he said, you know what, they'll explain to you 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:08.520 a little bit more. Well, from there, they took me 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.760 to the station. They put me in a vat outside 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:13.280 of the station and they left me there for it. 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.840 I say, m good, four hours So what reason? I'm 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.000 not sure, but I was here that for four hours. 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.040 Follows lady put me inside the whole treat and I 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:25.520 ask again, who needs to talk to me? What do 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.480 we need to talk to me about? And they said, oh, 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.000 you know what, they'll talk to you. They'll talk to you. 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.040 That whole day went through, nobody came to talk to me. Uh. 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.960 Finally there was two other inmates in the cell next 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.960 to me when the detective involved in my case can't 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:42.880 talk to them, and I asked them, Hey, who's going 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.520 to talk to me? And he says, you know what, 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:47.439 wait to turn, I'll talk to you in that time. 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:48.840 So I told him, I'm looking at you. You're I'm 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:50.920 gonna talk to me now. Let me know, I'm going 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:52.600 to bail out because I got to go to work. 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:54.920 And his words to me where, you know what, I'm 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.160 gonna give you some advice. Save your money because you're 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:57.679 gonna need it. 0:11:57.760 --> 0:11:59.520 Who said that to you one? The need to take 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:01.840 you in my case, now you're there. 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.160 First of all, this I'm trying to process this whole 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:06.120 idea of sitting for four hours in a van, not 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:09.800 knowing what's going on, just like just left there. No, 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:12.560 I mean, it's got to be a terrifying thing in 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.719 and of itself. But okay, So now finally they come 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:17.760 and talk to you and they tell you you're being 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:19.080 charged with first degree murdered. 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.480 Yeah. No, actually no, they didn't come back to me. 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:23.640 It wasn't into my arrangement because I got to rest 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.959 them on a Thursday morning. I got arranged on Monday morning. 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.839 The following week. When I went into my arrangement that 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:31.360 seem to take they came to talk to me and 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.840 he asked me but my co defendant, and he asked me, 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:35.200 when was the last thing you seen him? 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:35.800 Right? 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:37.920 And this is an important point because the co defendant 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.120 ultimately testifies that you were not involved. 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:40.760 Right. 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:43.520 No, he didn't testify to it. What it was was 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.120 that there was a tape recording from the county jail. 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:48.600 Because me and me and my co defendant, I was 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:51.200 first enough to tell me who did this? I know 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.120 I have nothing to do with this. Somebody else was 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.800 with you, and he just got like very upset because 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.240 I was questioning them, and I told me, you know what, 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:01.840 I'm he'll be here this. I have nothing to do 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.360 with this. So me and him got into a real 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.320 big argument and we ended up video to a fight. 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:08.920 Two days later, his girlfriend came and visited him in 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.840 the county jail. Well, when his girlfriend came to visit him, 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.040 he had a black guy and his girlfriend started question 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:17.319 and what's going on with you? What's going on with you? 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:19.760 And said jail. So he told us, you know what, 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:21.960 I'm gonna tell you the children that's going on. You 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.520 know what, Ralph has nothing to do with this. He's 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.079 asking around who was involved. And I told him to 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.320 stand up his business and he needs to keep this 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.480 his questions to himself and he shouldn't have nobody else 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:34.640 asking about this clime. 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.400 And that was that was that was said. 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:43.080 That yes, that was O. And originally when the tape 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.880 recording came to life, they had told my my my 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.680 attorney that it was me in the in the tamp 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.920 recording confess to the crime. So, uh, right before a 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:55.719 travel he said, we got a tape recording was this 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.640 confession to the crime. We didn't use it. So when 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.400 my attorney asked me about this recording, I said, look 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.040 at Andrew's names. That understand. I said, look at from 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:05.480 the day that I hired. I told you I had 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.880 nothing to do with this. I'm not going to change 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.439 up on you. I still stand one hundred percent that 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:12.840 I have nothing to do with this. So he teld me, Okay, 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:14.800 you know what, We're going to ask for an extension 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.160 and I'm going to listen to the recordings and we'll 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:19.400 come back in a month. So a month later, we 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:21.520 come back and I asked him what happened to recordings? 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:23.760 We doesn't know what. Don't worry about it. There's nothing 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:25.720 in that can help you, and there's nothing in there 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:26.880 that can hurt you. 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:29.320 None of that makes any sense. So first of all, 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.000 let me backtrack. Were you out on bail or you 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:33.720 and were you locked up this whole time? 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:36.760 Well? I was locked up this whole time because originally, 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.400 when I went for my arrangement, my bill was at 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:42.240 thirty thousand. When I went to my arrangement, they raised 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.600 my bill from thirty kundred dollars to two million. 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:48.040 Dollars two million, So they didn't want you going anywhere 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:56.600 and correct. And this attorney who we know, made a 0:14:56.720 --> 0:15:00.560 series of mistakes that are literally out This is the 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:02.640 only word I can think of to explain. 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:05.440 The nature the. 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.640 So many of them and so egregious that any law 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.960 student would have been able to handle this case better 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.080 than he did. Obviously, this was a quarter pointed attorney. 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.360 I'm assuming No, actually he was a private attorney. 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:24.520 Wow, So this was a private attorney. I mean, was 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.960 he Do you have any theory as to what was 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:31.120 wrong with him in terms of was why why was 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.400 he so ill suited for this job? 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:34.640 Like? 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.680 What was there something going on in his personal life? 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:40.640 Was there some did you ever find out? 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.600 No? Actually, you know what when when my family first 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:47.040 hired him, I mean he talked a real good story 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:48.440 to my family, said, you know what, I'm going to 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:50.560 get home and I'm going to prove his innocence. And 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.000 I mean he just said everything that you'll be said. 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.520 But as time was going by and postponement of post 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:01.440 it's like his whole demeanor just change, like you know, 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:03.800 like he just literally gave it up on the kiss. 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.760 Because of the almost three years that I spent in 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.120 the county jail fighting this case. One time he came 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.240 within me. That was when when my family hired him. 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:16.480 After that, never again did he come and see me, 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.480 ask me questions, nothing. It was just I would only 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:20.680 see him and would go to court. 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.360 He came to see you one time in three years. 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:26.880 In three years, Oh my god. You know, this is 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.880 so it's so outrageous, and it's amazing too. You know. 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.040 I'm just finishing reading the amazing book by Anthony ray. 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:35.640 Hinton called The Sun Does Shine. 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:37.840 How I Found Life and Freedom on Death Row by 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:40.320 Anthony ray Hinton with Lara lov Harden, and in it 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:44.040 he talks about Brian Stevenson, the legendary attorney who would 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:48.480 visit him on death row over fifteen years, like incredible 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.280 in a remote prison in Alabama, and here it is 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.640 like one time in three years. I like, I'm you know, 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:56.960 I'm so angry at this whole thing. It's like I 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:01.000 can't process how that could even be. And then in 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:05.280 the meantime he also made like mistakes that are unimaginable 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.119 in terms of the idea that you had a tape recording. 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:11.200 I'm just reflecting on this, right you had a tape 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:16.520 recording with the actual perpetrator saying that you his co defendant, 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:23.040 wasn't there and and he he couldn't even work with that, 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.800 Like he couldn't even and he's telling you that the 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:27.840 tape recording doesn't matter, and then he doesn't bring it 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.720 up at court, among other things, right, because I'm not 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.800 stopping there. I mean the idea that during the trial 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.199 he was unable to he did well, he wasn't unable. 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:42.960 He didn't call your coworker who would have testified and said. 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:44.680 That it was impossible for you to have. 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:47.600 Committed this crime since, as I said earlier in the podcast, 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:51.440 the whole you were the only guy there that could 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:54.080 operate the machinery, and we know that the machinery was operating, 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:55.439 and we know that you were You were there, you 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:59.840 were clocked in, you were I mean, it's just mine 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:05.800 by how you know how this could have transpired the 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:21.439 way it did and you lived it. So so I 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:23.520 want to get to this so it finally comes to 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.280 the trial. It took three years to get to trial. 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.880 Yeah, about two and a half years, which. 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:30.800 Is crazy in itself. 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.160 And meanwhile, your kids are growing up without their father, 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:37.880 your wife is in the situation of trying to figure 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:39.399 out how to make ends meet, which I know that 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.879 ultimately she had to move out of the house that 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.080 your dream house, because I mean, who can raise three 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.679 kids and work a job, and I mean it's you know, 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:51.399 and in the meantime she's left with the task of 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.080 trying to explain to the kids. I'm sure they're asking, 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:56.000 when's daddy coming home? Right, I mean, it's just it's 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.400 so I mean, it's so much. It's just so much. 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.280 So you finally come to trial, and by the time 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:05.960 you got to trial, now, I mean you've got to 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.480 be almost a basket case by this point. 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.840 I'm literally just I mean, words wouldn't even baber explain it. 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.679 And just the worst part about it was that the 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.760 doubt was there from the beginning year for the prosecution. 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:26.199