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Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: I was brought up like cops are the good guys.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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Speaker 2: do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like

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Speaker 2: everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent.

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Speaker 2: I know I'm innocent.

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Speaker 3: I know I had nothing to do with this.

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Speaker 1: How is this possible?

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Speaker 3: I grew up trusting the systems. I grew up believing

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Speaker 3: that every human being should do the right thing. And

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Speaker 3: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with

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Speaker 3: Coore other people, I wasn't going to break anyone to

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Speaker 3: get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with

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Speaker 3: the fact that I break my way out of my

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Speaker 3: wife's death.

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Speaker 2: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I

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Speaker 2: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.

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Speaker 3: Our system.

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Speaker 4: Since I've been out ten years, it's coming a little ways,

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Speaker 4: but it's still broken.

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Speaker 3: I totally little trusting humanity after what's happened to me.

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Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back to wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm that's me,

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Speaker 5: And today I have an extraordinary person as my guest,

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Speaker 5: a man named Rafael Madrigal.

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Speaker 1: Raphael, welcome to the show. Good and Raphael.

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Speaker 5: You know I often say it, I'm going to say

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Speaker 5: to you, I'm happy you're here, but i'm sorry you're

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Speaker 5: here because there's absolutely no excuse for what happened to you.

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Speaker 5: And as a member of as an American and as

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Speaker 5: a human, I apologize to you on behalf of everyone

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Speaker 5: because this this story, it literally makes no sense whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: Are you know better than anyone and I and.

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Speaker 5: I want to get into all those details because your

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Speaker 5: story has so many things that we see again and

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Speaker 5: again right. It has mistaken eye witness identification. It has

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Speaker 5: an incompetent defense attorney. It has an air tight alibi

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Speaker 5: that anybody in you know, any with any degree of

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Speaker 5: sanity or education or knowledge of justice with nobody could

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Speaker 5: have possibly convicted you based on those factors. But we're

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Speaker 5: going to unravel all of that and find out how

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Speaker 5: you got charged with first degree murder and how you

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Speaker 5: got exonerated as we go along.

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Speaker 1: But before we do that, let's go back, like at a.

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Speaker 5: Time, machine to when you were a kid. Where where

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Speaker 5: did did you grow up in California?

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Speaker 4: Yes? I did. I grew up in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 5: So was it a difficult childhood or a happy family life?

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Speaker 1: What?

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Speaker 5: What can you paint a picture for us to the audience?

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Speaker 5: What what was it like growing up?

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Speaker 4: Actually it was a more lifestyle. Yeah, it was in

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Speaker 4: a rough neighborhood, but I mean my early teen years,

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Speaker 4: I mean it was just the bigger neighborhood. Everybody was

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Speaker 4: going on and you know, trying to find themselves. But

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Speaker 4: later on, if we started getting older, then yeah, things

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Speaker 4: started changing. You know. It wasn't rough neighborhood. A lot

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Speaker 4: of gang violence around, and as the nineties started hitting many,

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Speaker 4: I started getting a little bit worse and worse and

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Speaker 4: worse as time went along, you know. But as myself,

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Speaker 4: I mean, I made the best of it. I graduated

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Speaker 4: from high school. I got a job right after high school.

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Speaker 4: College wasn't for me. I tried it for about a year,

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Speaker 4: and I think, you know what, college is going to

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Speaker 4: follow me? So you know, I decided, you know what,

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Speaker 4: I think I read the work and being that I

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Speaker 4: was already going to be a farther at nineteen. Then

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Speaker 4: you know, I knew my responsibility and.

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Speaker 5: That's and both of those things you just mentioned are

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Speaker 5: important parts of your story. Right, The fact that you

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Speaker 5: did become a father very young, and we know what

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Speaker 5: this wrongful incarceration took from you. We're going to discuss that.

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Speaker 5: But also the fact that you did start working very

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Speaker 5: young is an important thing as your story goes. Was

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Speaker 5: along because of the fact that in your alibi, what

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Speaker 5: made it so air tight, I mean, I was gonna

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Speaker 5: say bulletproof, you know, is the fact that you were

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Speaker 5: a highly skilled person who was the only person that

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Speaker 5: could operate the machinery at your job, which meant that,

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Speaker 5: you know, there's no way you could have committed this

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Speaker 5: crime fifty miles away when you were the only guy

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Speaker 5: there that knew how to do what you were doing,

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Speaker 5: and the whole factory would have shut down, right, So

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Speaker 5: the whole operation was so But let's get into that

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Speaker 5: by way of this crime, right, because it was I mean,

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Speaker 5: this sounds like it was a hit, right, I mean,

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Speaker 5: this was a this was a shooting.

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Speaker 1: Can you can you explain the crime itself?

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Speaker 5: Obviously you weren't there, but you're super familiar with there

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Speaker 5: was a guy named Aguilera, right correct.

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Speaker 4: The victim his name was ricordagu I mean I ended

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Speaker 4: up seeing him when he came as a fighting court,

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Speaker 4: But other than that, I've never had seen the gentleman.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't dry by shooting. It was a game that

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Speaker 4: was going on at the time cloth one list. You know,

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Speaker 4: I was forty five miles away from the incident, you know,

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Speaker 4: nowhere near it, and I was still put in a

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Speaker 4: situation where I lost ten years of my life.

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Speaker 5: Well how did and and you were senced to twenty

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Speaker 5: five to life, which is I mean unimaginable to think

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Speaker 5: of how that must have you know, just devastated you.

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Speaker 5: But how did your name come up in the first

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Speaker 5: place when you so obviously weren't there and you could

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Speaker 5: prove it. And who was it that first? I know

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Speaker 5: there were witnesses that identified you, but how did they

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Speaker 5: even come to bring your name up?

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Speaker 1: Did you ever find out how that happened?

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Speaker 4: Or it all started off with the picture that this

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Speaker 4: Los Angeles sheriff had on myself. The picture had took

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Speaker 4: me when I was I had just turned sixteen years

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Speaker 4: old at the time of the crime. I was twenty

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Speaker 4: five already, So they used that picture to show the

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Speaker 4: witnesses and the victim, and they all started with one

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Speaker 4: of the witnesses maid that I resembled the shooter.

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Speaker 5: Okay, wait a minute now, first of all, wait, wait,

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Speaker 5: let's go back. Let's go back for a second. So, Raphael,

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Speaker 5: you were sixteen when your picture was taken.

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Speaker 4: Great?

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Speaker 5: Is it even appropriate for that picture to still even

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Speaker 5: be in the books? Isn't that supposed to be sealed

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Speaker 5: after you turn eighteen?

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure. I don't know how exactly that works,

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Speaker 4: or is any law that prohibits them from using the

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Speaker 4: almost a ten year old picture?

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Speaker 1: And what was the original? Sorry?

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Speaker 5: Interrupted, but why was your picture in the book in

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Speaker 5: the first place? What we what were you picked up

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Speaker 5: for when? And I don't judge anything because I know

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Speaker 5: where you grew up, as a lot of people get

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Speaker 5: picked up for a lot of things, they do the

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Speaker 5: sweeps and everything else. And you know, we've had people

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Speaker 5: talk about how they were almost tricked into having their

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Speaker 5: pictures taken and put into the mug Shot book when

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Speaker 5: they were just barely teenagers. And it's also sort of

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Speaker 5: ridiculous to point out that you were they were using

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Speaker 5: a nine year old can imagine how much your appearance

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Speaker 5: changes from sixteen to twenty five. But yeah, so why

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Speaker 5: was your picture in the book in the first place?

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Speaker 4: A picture that I said it was taken when I

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Speaker 4: was sixteen, when they were in front of my house

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Speaker 4: and gang unit ended up swooping by and everybody that

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Speaker 4: was there inside my house. They pulled us home out

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Speaker 4: and they took pictures of us and they went on

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Speaker 4: their way. Never did I imagine in my life that

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Speaker 4: that picture would come in hunt me almost ten years later.

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Speaker 5: So, yeah, so you were literally doing nothing, standing around

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Speaker 5: in front of your own house and they took a

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Speaker 5: picture that ended up actually turning your life completely upside

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Speaker 5: down for the most random of reasons. And we'll get

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Speaker 5: into that too. The fact is that we know that

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Speaker 5: there are ways to improve eyewitness identification procedures, including the

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Speaker 5: fact that I'm guessing in your case, like in most cases,

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Speaker 5: they were using six pictures on that page in the

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Speaker 5: Mugshot book. And you know, decades of research have now

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Speaker 5: proven scientifically that the human mind, if you give it

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Speaker 5: that many options, will go towards somebody that sort of

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Speaker 5: resembles a little bit. They'll start you'll start to make

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Speaker 5: up things subconsciously that don't even that aren't real because

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Speaker 5: you see all these different pictures. So by making the

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Speaker 5: simple change of putting one picture per page, we know

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Speaker 5: that the incidents of wrongful identifications go down by around

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Speaker 5: fifty percent. So that's the change that we're trying to

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Speaker 5: get made all over the country and in any case.

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Speaker 5: So so I mean, this is this is an unbelievable thing.

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Speaker 5: So you're now far away, have no idea what's going

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Speaker 5: on somewhere in a police station in these Los Angeles,

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Speaker 5: these witnesses, one of them randomly pickts your photo and

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Speaker 5: then what happens.

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Speaker 4: And then from there, I mean, the night marriages started

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Speaker 4: from when the incident happened, I believe the incident took

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Speaker 4: please and from there after the incidet I believe, they

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Speaker 4: showed the pictures, the pictures to the nick to the witnesses,

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Speaker 4: tell me about that to the witnesses, and fifteen days

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Speaker 4: later after the incident, that's when I got picked up.

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Speaker 4: I got picked up on anchel of twentieth.

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Speaker 1: July the twenties.

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Speaker 5: So paint this picture for us place, So you're July

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Speaker 5: the twenties, where were you.

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Speaker 4: July twenty, I had just dropped off my wife at work.

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Speaker 4: I was because she went a little bit earlier than

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Speaker 4: I did. I dropped lass at work, I was heading

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Speaker 4: back home to get ready myself. And when I was

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Speaker 4: driving into I used to live in a Culdsfec at

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Speaker 4: the time. When I was driving in, I noticed that

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Speaker 4: there was a bunch of a shelf deputy patrol cars

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Speaker 4: on the side of the street and they were all

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Speaker 4: putting under gear. And uh, I see them. I said, Oh,

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Speaker 4: they're going to give somebody a rude awakening right now.

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Speaker 4: Little did I know they were going to my house.

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Speaker 1: And you.

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Speaker 5: I read an article about you in San Francisco magazine

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Speaker 5: where you were talking about how you were literally, I'm

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Speaker 5: going to quote you. You said, I was literally living in

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Speaker 5: the American dream and then I got everything pulled out

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Speaker 5: from under my feet.

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Speaker 1: You had two kids at this point, your.

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Speaker 5: Wife was pregnant, You had a good job, right, so

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Speaker 5: life was looking pretty pretty damn good.

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Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I mean literally, I had we had just

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Speaker 4: thirty had been a year ago. We had bought on

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Speaker 4: in a house, so I mean, I mean, therefore we

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Speaker 4: were striving for it. The fire own house and retired

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Speaker 4: paint where so I mean we put we put our

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Speaker 4: nesteak together and everything that we have saved up for

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Speaker 4: we eased to move. But little did we know that,

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Speaker 4: I mean, this nightmare was going to start at night

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Speaker 4: of twenty year.

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Speaker 5: So you had two boys six and three and a

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Speaker 5: little girl on the way and then you get picked

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Speaker 5: up taken in for questioning. I assume right, and explain it,

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Speaker 5: explain that process.

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Speaker 4: Well. The funny point is when I when I see

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Speaker 4: that take the sales patrol course in the coulda sat.

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Speaker 4: I came to the stop sign and they had a

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Speaker 4: picture of me, a blown up picture that they were

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Speaker 4: going to my house with. So when I got to

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Speaker 4: the stop sign, one of the deputies that had the picture,

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Speaker 4: it happened to me he had the pie was looking

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Speaker 4: at the picture at the time when I turned around

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Speaker 4: and I looked at and relactizing to each other, and

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Speaker 4: he drew his weapon on me and he yelled at

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Speaker 4: him trying to get off my map. So yeah, sure enough,

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Speaker 4: they got me off the van, and they said the

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Speaker 4: first one who tell me all, they need to talk

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Speaker 4: to you down the station. So I tell them all

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Speaker 4: of this here because they need to talk to me,

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Speaker 4: and he said, you know what, they'll explain to you

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Speaker 4: a little bit more. Well, from there, they took me

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Speaker 4: to the station. They put me in a vat outside

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Speaker 4: of the station and they left me there for it.

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Speaker 4: I say, m good, four hours So what reason? I'm

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Speaker 4: not sure, but I was here that for four hours.

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Speaker 4: Follows lady put me inside the whole treat and I

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Speaker 4: ask again, who needs to talk to me? What do

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Speaker 4: we need to talk to me about? And they said, oh,

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Speaker 4: you know what, they'll talk to you. They'll talk to you.

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Speaker 4: That whole day went through, nobody came to talk to me. Uh.

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Speaker 4: Finally there was two other inmates in the cell next

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Speaker 4: to me when the detective involved in my case can't

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Speaker 4: talk to them, and I asked them, Hey, who's going

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Speaker 4: to talk to me? And he says, you know what,

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Speaker 4: wait to turn, I'll talk to you in that time.

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Speaker 4: So I told him, I'm looking at you. You're I'm

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Speaker 4: gonna talk to me now. Let me know, I'm going

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Speaker 4: to bail out because I got to go to work.

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Speaker 4: And his words to me where, you know what, I'm

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Speaker 4: gonna give you some advice. Save your money because you're

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Speaker 4: gonna need it.

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Speaker 1: Who said that to you one? The need to take

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Speaker 1: you in my case, now you're there.

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Speaker 5: First of all, this I'm trying to process this whole

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Speaker 5: idea of sitting for four hours in a van, not

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Speaker 5: knowing what's going on, just like just left there. No,

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's got to be a terrifying thing in

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Speaker 5: and of itself. But okay, So now finally they come

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Speaker 5: and talk to you and they tell you you're being

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Speaker 5: charged with first degree murdered.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. No, actually no, they didn't come back to me.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't into my arrangement because I got to rest

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Speaker 4: them on a Thursday morning. I got arranged on Monday morning.

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Speaker 4: The following week. When I went into my arrangement that

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Speaker 4: seem to take they came to talk to me and

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Speaker 4: he asked me but my co defendant, and he asked me,

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Speaker 4: when was the last thing you seen him?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 5: And this is an important point because the co defendant

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Speaker 5: ultimately testifies that you were not involved.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 4: No, he didn't testify to it. What it was was

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Speaker 4: that there was a tape recording from the county jail.

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Speaker 4: Because me and me and my co defendant, I was

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Speaker 4: first enough to tell me who did this? I know

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Speaker 4: I have nothing to do with this. Somebody else was

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Speaker 4: with you, and he just got like very upset because

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Speaker 4: I was questioning them, and I told me, you know what,

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Speaker 4: I'm he'll be here this. I have nothing to do

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Speaker 4: with this. So me and him got into a real

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Speaker 4: big argument and we ended up video to a fight.

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Speaker 4: Two days later, his girlfriend came and visited him in

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Speaker 4: the county jail. Well, when his girlfriend came to visit him,

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Speaker 4: he had a black guy and his girlfriend started question

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Speaker 4: and what's going on with you? What's going on with you?

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Speaker 4: And said jail. So he told us, you know what,

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna tell you the children that's going on. You

287
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Speaker 4: know what, Ralph has nothing to do with this. He's

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Speaker 4: asking around who was involved. And I told him to

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Speaker 4: stand up his business and he needs to keep this

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Speaker 4: his questions to himself and he shouldn't have nobody else

291
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Speaker 4: asking about this clime.

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Speaker 1: And that was that was that was said.

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Speaker 4: That yes, that was O. And originally when the tape

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Speaker 4: recording came to life, they had told my my my

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Speaker 4: attorney that it was me in the in the tamp

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Speaker 4: recording confess to the crime. So, uh, right before a

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Speaker 4: travel he said, we got a tape recording was this

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Speaker 4: confession to the crime. We didn't use it. So when

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Speaker 4: my attorney asked me about this recording, I said, look

300
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Speaker 4: at Andrew's names. That understand. I said, look at from

301
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Speaker 4: the day that I hired. I told you I had

302
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Speaker 4: nothing to do with this. I'm not going to change

303
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Speaker 4: up on you. I still stand one hundred percent that

304
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Speaker 4: I have nothing to do with this. So he teld me, Okay,

305
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Speaker 4: you know what, We're going to ask for an extension

306
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Speaker 4: and I'm going to listen to the recordings and we'll

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Speaker 4: come back in a month. So a month later, we

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Speaker 4: come back and I asked him what happened to recordings?

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Speaker 4: We doesn't know what. Don't worry about it. There's nothing

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Speaker 4: in that can help you, and there's nothing in there

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Speaker 4: that can hurt you.

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Speaker 5: None of that makes any sense. So first of all,

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Speaker 5: let me backtrack. Were you out on bail or you

314
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Speaker 5: and were you locked up this whole time?

315
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Speaker 4: Well? I was locked up this whole time because originally,

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Speaker 4: when I went for my arrangement, my bill was at

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Speaker 4: thirty thousand. When I went to my arrangement, they raised

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Speaker 4: my bill from thirty kundred dollars to two million.

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Speaker 5: Dollars two million, So they didn't want you going anywhere

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Speaker 5: and correct. And this attorney who we know, made a

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Speaker 5: series of mistakes that are literally out This is the

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Speaker 5: only word I can think of to explain.

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Speaker 1: The nature the.

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Speaker 5: So many of them and so egregious that any law

325
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,960
Speaker 5: student would have been able to handle this case better

326
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Speaker 5: than he did. Obviously, this was a quarter pointed attorney.

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Speaker 4: I'm assuming No, actually he was a private attorney.

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Speaker 5: Wow, So this was a private attorney. I mean, was

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Speaker 5: he Do you have any theory as to what was

330
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Speaker 5: wrong with him in terms of was why why was

331
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Speaker 5: he so ill suited for this job?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 5: What was there something going on in his personal life?

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Speaker 5: Was there some did you ever find out?

335
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Speaker 4: No? Actually, you know what when when my family first

336
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,040
Speaker 4: hired him, I mean he talked a real good story

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Speaker 4: to my family, said, you know what, I'm going to

338
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Speaker 4: get home and I'm going to prove his innocence. And

339
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Speaker 4: I mean he just said everything that you'll be said.

340
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Speaker 4: But as time was going by and postponement of post

341
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Speaker 4: it's like his whole demeanor just change, like you know,

342
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Speaker 4: like he just literally gave it up on the kiss.

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Speaker 4: Because of the almost three years that I spent in

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Speaker 4: the county jail fighting this case. One time he came

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Speaker 4: within me. That was when when my family hired him.

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Speaker 4: After that, never again did he come and see me,

347
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Speaker 4: ask me questions, nothing. It was just I would only

348
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Speaker 4: see him and would go to court.

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Speaker 1: He came to see you one time in three years.

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Speaker 1: In three years, Oh my god. You know, this is

351
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Speaker 1: so it's so outrageous, and it's amazing too. You know.

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Speaker 5: I'm just finishing reading the amazing book by Anthony ray.

353
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Speaker 1: Hinton called The Sun Does Shine.

354
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:37,840
Speaker 5: How I Found Life and Freedom on Death Row by

355
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,320
Speaker 5: Anthony ray Hinton with Lara lov Harden, and in it

356
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,040
Speaker 5: he talks about Brian Stevenson, the legendary attorney who would

357
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,480
Speaker 5: visit him on death row over fifteen years, like incredible

358
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,280
Speaker 5: in a remote prison in Alabama, and here it is

359
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,640
Speaker 5: like one time in three years. I like, I'm you know,

360
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,960
Speaker 5: I'm so angry at this whole thing. It's like I

361
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,000
Speaker 5: can't process how that could even be. And then in

362
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Speaker 5: the meantime he also made like mistakes that are unimaginable

363
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,119
Speaker 5: in terms of the idea that you had a tape recording.

364
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,200
Speaker 5: I'm just reflecting on this, right you had a tape

365
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Speaker 5: recording with the actual perpetrator saying that you his co defendant,

366
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:23,040
Speaker 5: wasn't there and and he he couldn't even work with that,

367
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,800
Speaker 5: Like he couldn't even and he's telling you that the

368
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,840
Speaker 5: tape recording doesn't matter, and then he doesn't bring it

369
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,720
Speaker 5: up at court, among other things, right, because I'm not

370
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,800
Speaker 5: stopping there. I mean the idea that during the trial

371
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Speaker 5: he was unable to he did well, he wasn't unable.

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Speaker 5: He didn't call your coworker who would have testified and said.

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Speaker 1: That it was impossible for you to have.

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Speaker 5: Committed this crime since, as I said earlier in the podcast,

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Speaker 5: the whole you were the only guy there that could

376
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Speaker 5: operate the machinery, and we know that the machinery was operating,

377
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:55,439
Speaker 5: and we know that you were You were there, you

378
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,840
Speaker 5: were clocked in, you were I mean, it's just mine

379
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Speaker 5: by how you know how this could have transpired the

380
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:21,439
Speaker 5: way it did and you lived it. So so I

381
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,520
Speaker 5: want to get to this so it finally comes to

382
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Speaker 5: the trial. It took three years to get to trial.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, about two and a half years, which.

384
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Speaker 1: Is crazy in itself.

385
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,160
Speaker 5: And meanwhile, your kids are growing up without their father,

386
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Speaker 5: your wife is in the situation of trying to figure

387
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Speaker 5: out how to make ends meet, which I know that

388
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,879
Speaker 5: ultimately she had to move out of the house that

389
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Speaker 5: your dream house, because I mean, who can raise three

390
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,679
Speaker 5: kids and work a job, and I mean it's you know,

391
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,399
Speaker 5: and in the meantime she's left with the task of

392
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Speaker 5: trying to explain to the kids. I'm sure they're asking,

393
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Speaker 5: when's daddy coming home? Right, I mean, it's just it's

394
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,400
Speaker 5: so I mean, it's so much. It's just so much.

395
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Speaker 5: So you finally come to trial, and by the time

396
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Speaker 5: you got to trial, now, I mean you've got to

397
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,480
Speaker 5: be almost a basket case by this point.

398
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Speaker 4: I'm literally just I mean, words wouldn't even baber explain it.

399
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,679
Speaker 4: And just the worst part about it was that the

400
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,760
Speaker 4: doubt was there from the beginning year for the prosecution.

401
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,199
Speaker 4: Keep in mind, I went through Ford justic attorneys. It

402
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,240
Speaker 4: wasn't intil the fourth one that decided to take you

403
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 4: to trial. The first three came in. I mean the

404
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,880
Speaker 4: first one, mister Dan Baker, which was the top gang

405
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,400
Speaker 4: prosecutor in Los Angeles County at the time. He came

406
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 4: and he told my attorney at the time, you know what,

407
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 4: I have an offer for him. My offer for him

408
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,119
Speaker 4: is twenty five with life. That's the only thing that

409
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,000
Speaker 4: will offer him, you know. A year later he leaves

410
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,080
Speaker 4: the case. They bring another prosecutor in from another city

411
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,680
Speaker 4: and he comes in the same way. You know what.

412
00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,840
Speaker 4: There's no deals, there's no deals. Finally, when he's up,

413
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,920
Speaker 4: maybe about ten months into the case, he says, you

414
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 4: know what, I might have a deal for you. We'll

415
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,720
Speaker 4: see how that turns out. The following month he was

416
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,320
Speaker 4: off the case. They bought another gentleman from the city

417
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,880
Speaker 4: of Compton. He was on the case for a month.

418
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,680
Speaker 4: He let the case go. They finally brought in This

419
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 4: is Ramibors Marie Remiors, which is the one that finally

420
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 4: took me to trial, and she's the one that finally

421
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:23,919
Speaker 4: convicted me, you know.

422
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Speaker 5: And my team was, yeah, Raf, where you tried, If

423
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,399
Speaker 5: it's okay if I call you Ralf. Were you tried

424
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 5: together with all of ours or separately?

425
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Speaker 4: No? Together?

426
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,439
Speaker 5: But he didn't take the stand, and you had the

427
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 5: tape recording. But the lawyer didn't bother to tell anybody

428
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 5: about this tape recording where he was admitting that you

429
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 5: weren't there.

430
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 4: Exactly. It's like the stay recording. The prosecution is the

431
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,640
Speaker 4: one that brought them to light. But at the end,

432
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 4: nobody used them. And when we when we got our

433
00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,439
Speaker 4: appeal granted, and we came to the federal courthouse and

434
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 4: he asked mister Stein about the tape recording. All he

435
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 4: responded was, you know what, I think my secretary listened

436
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:06,360
Speaker 4: to them.

437
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 5: Wow, my secretary listened to them. Doesn't that say at all?

438
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 1: Right?

439
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 5: That that is what's so nuts to me is that

440
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,359
Speaker 5: there that there are people in this less justice system

441
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 5: I call it sometimes in justice system that are so

442
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 5: cavalier about someone's life, because in your case, it really

443
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:29,680
Speaker 5: was your life. I mean, twenty five to life is

444
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,160
Speaker 5: a life sentence. Let's face it. I mean there's when

445
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,680
Speaker 5: twenty five to life sentence as a twenty five year

446
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 5: old man, you're basically looking at spending the rest of

447
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 5: your life behind bars. And this guy had his secretary

448
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,880
Speaker 5: listen to the recording. Okay, that's I'm just gonna think

449
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,719
Speaker 5: about this for a second. So when you went to trial,

450
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 5: by now, you I mean, I'm assuming you had lost

451
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 5: faith in your attorney, had did you consider it firing him,

452
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 5: hiring somebody else?

453
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 4: Well, I really did a system of what you could

454
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 4: and can do. It was my first time in being

455
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 4: in a position like this. Keep in mind, I have

456
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 4: never been arrested soon, I have never been turned before.

457
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 4: So I was lost. You know, my only guidance was

458
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 4: my attorney.

459
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 5: Right, and you and you want to have you want

460
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,479
Speaker 5: to have faith in him at this point, I'm assuming

461
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 5: because you need to have faith in somebody or something,

462
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,479
Speaker 5: and he's your advocate, he's your champion.

463
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,679
Speaker 1: But when you went to trial, did you feel like,

464
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 1: how can I say this?

465
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 5: Did you feel like you were going to be exonerated?

466
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 5: I mean, at this point the system had already you know,

467
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 5: shown you it's its worst sides. So but but still

468
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 5: you knew you were innocent. So what was your like

469
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 5: going in to the court room finally after all these

470
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 5: years or two and a half years, three years? Did

471
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 5: you feel like you were going to be exonerated? Or

472
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 5: you were you like, oh, you know they've got me

473
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 5: and that's going to be it.

474
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,919
Speaker 7: No, know, I I like, honestly, I never did my

475
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 7: faith in the truth.

476
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 4: I was always under the impression, you know, one sec

477
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 4: of the trial, I'm going to.

478
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 7: Be able to pull my innocent I'm going to prove it.

479
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 7: And the trial masted two days deliberations, ris and lot

480
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 7: of it in the childhood deliberation was on four days.

481
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 7: And they kept on and they kept on coming back.

482
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 7: The jury kept on coming back to pursuing my alibi.

483
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,880
Speaker 7: So the doubt was there from the beginning. There wasn't

484
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 7: the doubt just to the jury.

485
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 3: It was.

486
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 7: It was there for the beginning, even with the prosecution.

487
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: But here's another thing.

488
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 5: As I was reading and rereading your story, I was thinking,

489
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 5: you're sitting there next to your lawyer. He's not calling

490
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 5: your alibi witness. Uh, from the I don't know what

491
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 5: the guy's name was. From the factory or was it

492
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 5: a factory, or or what was the place that you

493
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:49,239
Speaker 5: were working at?

494
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 1: What was it called?

495
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 4: It was it was a manufacturing company.

496
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 5: And what was the name of the guy who never

497
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 5: was called that should have been called, that could have act. Actually,

498
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 5: you know, absolutely without any doubt, established your your alibi

499
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 5: as being factual.

500
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:08,880
Speaker 4: That was my manager of Bob Howard's.

501
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 1: Was he in the courtroom, No, he was never in

502
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: the courtroom.

503
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 4: Actually he got to the court room and to my understanding,

504
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 4: by attorney told him that he was not going to

505
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 4: be called to testified, but he did show up.

506
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 5: Did you at any point say to your attorney, where

507
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 5: is Bob Howard? Why isn't he here? Why aren't you

508
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 5: calling him to the stand?

509
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 4: No, I mean I was.

510
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 6: My head was just just so lost when I kept

511
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 6: on just hearing how the prosecution kept on just making

512
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 6: me look like this animal, you know.

513
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 4: And even when the victim himself got up in the standing,

514
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 4: they asked him, do you see the person who shot

515
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 4: who shot you here today in this court room. The

516
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 4: gentleman said, the person who shot me, he's not here.

517
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 4: He wasn't lying, He was never lying. He was saying

518
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 4: the truth. But what would make that bad was that

519
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 4: right after he got understand, was that they put to

520
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 4: take to the move, understand, and they asked him to

521
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 4: take to the move. Why do you feel a missie

522
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 4: Aguilla is saying that the person who shot him is

523
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 4: not here? So his comments were, oh, well, he feels

524
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 4: he doesn't want to be label to snitch, he doesn't

525
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 4: want to be labeled to rap, he doesn't want any repercussions.

526
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 4: But it was never that the gentleman was saying the

527
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 4: truth the person that shot him was not important.

528
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 5: I'm again trying to figure. I'm trying to put myself

529
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 5: inside the mind of the jury, because even with such

530
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 5: even with such a I mean, inadequate is not a

531
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 5: strong enough word, but even with such an incompetent, disinterested,

532
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 5: even still with that alone, you would think that the

533
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,719
Speaker 5: jury would go well, okay, I guess that's it, you know.

534
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 5: And obviously they thought long and hard before they finally

535
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 5: decided what they decided and and sentenced you to to

536
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 5: this this terrible uh, this terrible term in prison. So

537
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 5: that moment must have been the worst moment of your life.

538
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 5: I mean, I can't imagine anything worse. When the jury

539
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 5: came back in, did they look at you? Was your

540
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 5: family in the courtroom? Can you was it hot?

541
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: Was it cold? Do you remember? Can you paint the

542
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 1: picture for us of what that was like?

543
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 4: And I remember it clearly, like it was yesterday. It

544
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 4: was almost days in for the jury, and I was

545
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 4: under the impression it was I believe a flighting. They

546
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 4: were gonna just bring us back on Monday. The bailiff

547
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 4: called called us in from the from the holding tank decision,

548
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 4: and when I think they came back with the verdict,

549
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 4: three o'clock to me thirty in the afternoon, and I

550
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 4: remember my pums were sweating so bad, and I don't

551
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 4: know if it was hot and narrow it was cold.

552
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 4: I was. I was nervous, you know, And the jury

553
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 4: came back and just hearing those words, you know, when

554
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 4: we find the defending guilty, it's like if I had

555
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 4: the world on my shoulders at the time, the world

556
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 4: just came crashing down on me.

557
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 5: And you can't help thinking, oh, sorry, go ahead, Ralph.

558
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 4: I mean it was just then turning along fee my

559
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 4: family and just everybody breaking down trying because they knew

560
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 4: the truth. I mean, nobody better than my family knew

561
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 4: the truth. And them hearing the word's guilty as like

562
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 4: they just took the air out of their ownness.

563
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 5: And I can't help thinking that the fact that it

564
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 5: was the weekend coming up and the jury didn't want

565
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 5: to have to come back or be I don't know

566
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 5: if they were sequestered, but that probably played a role

567
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 5: inside that room of them saying you know what, maybe

568
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 5: there was one or two holdouts and they finally said,

569
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 5: you know what, this weekend and Monday, I gotta go

570
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 5: to work whatever.

571
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: And so for anybody who's listening.

572
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 5: I always say, please, if you get called for jury duty,

573
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 5: first of all, show up. I know it's annoying, it's difficult,

574
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 5: it's in a position on all of our life.

575
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: Show up, serve on a jury.

576
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 5: Pay attention, and remember that somebody like Raphael is hanging

577
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 5: in the balance. His whole life is hanging in the balance.

578
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 5: When you're sitting there, and you know, it's all of

579
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 5: our duty to our fellow citizens, so orofellow human beings

580
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 5: that we give it, you know, all the attention that

581
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 5: it deserves, and that we remember that these mistakes happen

582
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 5: as often as they do, and you're living proof of it.

583
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 5: So you're now convicted a sense to twenty five years

584
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 5: to life. The worst thing that could possibly happen, you

585
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 5: go to prison. I guess I want to get to

586
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 5: the I want to get to the good part, right,

587
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 5: the exoneration and what's happening now. But if you can

588
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 5: tell us during those see you had been waiting almost

589
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 5: three years for the trial, and you were in for

590
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 5: another almost seven in a maximum security prison. And was

591
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 5: that as bad as everyone is imagining it to be?

592
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 5: Was there anything? Was there any bright spot in that

593
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 5: whole time you were there. What was the best and

594
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 5: the worst aspect of that entire miserable time of seven years.

595
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 5: And then again this is in adding because you were

596
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 5: in almost ten but the seven years inside prison after

597
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 5: you had been tried and convicted, you.

598
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 4: Know, I could honestly say the best point of those

599
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 4: of those ten years was coming across Eric Moltop, which

600
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 4: was the attorney who originally contacted the California interspodseet. Mister

601
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 4: Moltop was referred to me by my state appointed appeal attorney,

602
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 4: Laura Seaffer. And when Laura Seaffer got my case originally

603
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 4: after I got sentenced, you know, she was very honest

604
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 4: with me. She told me the way it was, the

605
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 4: system works. She says, Looking, you got to understand, we're

606
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 4: state appointed appeal attorneys. They don't pay us to do

607
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 4: extra labors. They just pay us to do push PayPal

608
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 4: fore days. You know. But after going through your case,

609
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 4: you're not supposed to be here. And I told him,

610
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 4: you know what, I know, I'm not supposed to be here.

611
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 4: And she went as far as telling them, but you

612
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 4: know what, you're gonna have to get a private attorney

613
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,719
Speaker 4: to be able to help you out. And she referred

614
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 4: me to the gentleman Eric moltip out of No Valley, California.

615
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 4: And this gentleman from the beginning when he got a

616
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 4: hold of my case, he contacted me and within a

617
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 4: month a month and a half, I want to say,

618
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 4: he wrote me a letter and he explained to me,

619
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 4: He goes, look, I read your case already. I don't

620
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 4: know what you're doing in prison. You know, we need

621
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 4: to get you home. And from there he got the

622
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 4: bone rolling. He started investigating. And the first thing that

623
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 4: I call him when he came to visit me, I

624
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 4: told him, Eric, the only thing I need you to

625
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 4: do is because I have never listened to the tape recordings.

626
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 4: I asked him, please listen to the tape recording to

627
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 4: send being there. It always stood in the back of

628
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 4: my mind, there has to be since there. And he goes, okay,

629
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 4: you know where I'm gonna listen to him.

630
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: I kid you not.

631
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 4: Maybe within a month he went back to the prisoners

632
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 4: in the game and he asked me, is that you

633
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 4: and the tape recordings. I said, look, Errett, I haven't

634
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 4: listened to them. I don't know what's in them. So

635
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 4: he brought a copy of tape recordings and he played it,

636
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 4: and as soon as the first work came out of

637
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 4: the tape recording, I told him that's Francisco. I recognized

638
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 4: his voice immediately. He says, are you sure? I said,

639
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 4: look at them, one hundred percent sure, that's Francisco and

640
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 4: Waters on the tape recordings. And that's what just got

641
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 4: the ball rolling. We're able to admit the tape recordings

642
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 4: back in todment because originally the prosecutions prosecution is the

643
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 4: one that you have brought them out to light, but

644
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 4: they were never used. So it goes you know what,

645
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 4: I got to get this back in there. And sure enough,

646
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 4: that was one of the key things that the magistrate

647
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 4: in the Federal appeals court asked, why were these tape

648
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 4: recorders never used in his defense?

649
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 5: It's a damn good question. And it was newly discovered

650
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 5: evidence at that point as well, which is great.

651
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: So okay, so let's fast forward.

652
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 5: Now what must have been maybe other than the to

653
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 5: your kids or I don't know, but it must have

654
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 5: been the happiest.

655
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: Day of your life, which is the day that you were.

656
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 5: Back in court. How did you get end up getting exonerated?

657
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: Released?

658
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,959
Speaker 5: And must have been like this million pound weight has

659
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 5: lifted off your shoulders now, So can you explain that right?

660
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 4: Well, the flip side is that we first had a

661
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 4: file of motion FORVID injury hearing and we got that

662
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 4: advent hearing granted. So I was brought from prison back

663
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 4: down to Orange County where the evidence your hearing was

664
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 4: going to take place. So during that evident you're hearing,

665
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 4: we were able to call my attorney who represented me,

666
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 4: we put him on a stand, and we were able

667
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 4: to bring mister Bob Howards and put him on the stand, so,

668
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 4: I mean all the pieces that were missing at the trial.

669
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 4: We put him in front of the fell of the

670
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 4: courthouse and that's what was able to bring the light.

671
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 4: So once we got mister Stein under Stein on the

672
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 4: stand and he was able to just literally deny everything

673
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 4: that he did and also put mister how I was

674
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 4: understanding him, admit you know what he was at work.

675
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 4: I'm one hundred percent positlyn to use at work. There's

676
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 4: no way he could have been gone. You know. That's

677
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 4: what took turn bottom. This was in October. In June

678
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 4: of two thousand and nine, my appeal was granted.

679
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 5: I mean, how did you feel. What were you freed

680
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 5: from the courtroom. Explain the whole thing, because this is

681
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 5: my favorite part of the show, right, the good part.

682
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 4: Right. Well, the next day, all that day, I just

683
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 4: slep all night. Literally I slipped not one hour of shady.

684
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 4: The next morning, I'm thinking, Okay, they're going to come

685
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 4: me early in the morning. Then they're gonna walk me

686
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 4: out seven o'clock, eight o'clock. Let there, finally winning the

687
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 4: Tipitis came the to my cell and said, you know,

688
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 4: we'll get your stuff ready. I got to take you

689
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 4: down to our which is receiving a release. And he

690
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 4: told me, oh, your Turney is supposed to be here

691
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 4: to pick you up at eleven o'clock. But if he's

692
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 4: not here, we have to that you go those that's

693
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 4: the court order. So eleven o'clock came and they walked

694
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 4: me to the gate and mister Eric Moltop was there

695
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 4: waiting for me. You know, it was it was an

696
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 4: unexplainable relief happiness. I don't know if there was just

697
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 4: a bunch of emotions going through me.

698
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 7: You know, my dad just passed away eight months.

699
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 4: Earlier, so it was it was just a bunch of

700
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 4: things going through my mind. You know, how was I

701
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 4: going to get back into society? What was I going

702
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,919
Speaker 4: to do? You know, it's just a minute things going

703
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 4: through your mind. I get home, man, there's a bunch

704
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 4: of camera that was waiting for me, my family. I

705
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 4: mean literally, it was the best day of my life.

706
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 4: The only bad plub about it in there My dad

707
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 4: wasn't there waiting for me.

708
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 5: I want to talk about something else that's really important

709
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 5: in your case. And I know we don't have a

710
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 5: lot of timele left, but you were ultimately fully exonerated, conviction,

711
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 5: reverse charges dropped, declared.

712
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: Actually innocent. Is that right?

713
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 4: That's correct?

714
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 5: And so it's amazing Ralph, because I've been doing this

715
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 5: work for twenty five twenty six years now, and I

716
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 5: talk about it all the time, no matter where I am,

717
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 5: I'm always talking about it. And I tell these stories

718
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 5: about your case, about all these different cases that I know,

719
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 5: because it drives me crazy. And the first question everybody

720
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 5: asks me is did he get Did the person the

721
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 5: man or woman the exgonery? Did they get compensated? So

722
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 5: the first thing everybody wants to know. Their eyes get

723
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 5: real wide, they say did the guy get? I hope

724
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 5: they get and I have to tell them, well, it's

725
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 5: not what you think. And you're living proof of that,

726
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 5: right because you have gone through almost like another trial.

727
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 5: It really it is another trial, just trying to get

728
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 5: what's due for you. And in California the compensation statute,

729
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 5: and I'm working on getting it fixed. But it's so crazy.

730
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 5: Can you explain that a little bit? Because most people

731
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 5: think you get out, they send you a check. Hey man, sorry,

732
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 5: we've messed up your life, like, uh, you know, let

733
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 5: me give you a little way.

734
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: To get started here, you know, But that's not the

735
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: way it is.

736
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 4: It's actually the total opposite. I mean California. And it's

737
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 4: sadly saying that California, up until recently, their whole exonerate

738
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 4: exoneration passive was never there. I mean, the gates open

739
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 4: for you, and you know, there's no apology, there's no,

740
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 4: like you said, a check waiting for you. There's nothing

741
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 4: waiting for you. It's their opening and they just kick

742
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 4: you out into the world. You know, I've been out.

743
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, it's been nine years. On Saturday,

744
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 4: October of six, it's been my nine year anniversary that

745
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 4: I've been home.

746
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: Happy birthday, Happy University.

747
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 4: Up until now, I haven't seen any type of help

748
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 4: from the State of California. I've been to hearings after hearing,

749
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 4: and every time we go with it's like on the

750
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 4: trail because you have these people on the board who

751
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 4: are more into denying you, not the compensation, but the truth,

752
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 4: denying you. They keep on denying the truth, you know,

753
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 4: for what reason, I don't know. I don't know what

754
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 4: holds them back from saying, you know what, a mistake

755
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 4: was made here, we have to fix it. But up

756
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 4: until this date, nobody, nobody in the state of California

757
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,720
Speaker 4: has said, you know what we done, these people wrong,

758
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 4: we have to fix it. And I'm not the only one.

759
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 4: There's several individual Exanna Revees that are here in California

760
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 4: where I haven't been compensated. They're in the same situation

761
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 4: that I'm in. They've been fighting for their compensation for six, seven, eight,

762
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 4: nineteen years.

763
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 5: No I know, and I've read some of those stories

764
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 5: and it's really horrible, including some that have ended up

765
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 5: going back to prison just because they haven't been able

766
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 5: to support themselves because they're facing the same thing that

767
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 5: you're facing, which is that coming out and having to

768
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 5: tell their prospective employer that they have a conviction even

769
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 5: though it was overturned, and then they're either not getting

770
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 5: hired or getting fired from the jobs that they know

771
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 5: that they should have. I think as a society, we

772
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 5: have to open our hearts and minds, and we have

773
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 5: to open our companies. I talked to CEOs and other

774
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 5: people in positions of power that run.

775
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: Big companies about this all the time.

776
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 5: I think there's a lot more openness to this now,

777
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 5: to this concept that we need to give people a

778
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 5: second chance, innocent or guilty, but particularly if you're innocent,

779
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 5: to get back on their feet.

780
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: And yet people like.

781
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,720
Speaker 5: Kenneth Foley is a classic example, right, who was convicted

782
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 5: of armed robbery ninety five cents to twenty five years

783
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 5: to life and exonerated in two thousand and seven, and

784
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 5: then denied compensation and couldn't get a job and ultimately

785
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 5: had PTSD and all these other things that ended up

786
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 5: with a fifteen year cents for a vehicular manslaughter because

787
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 5: he was high on drugs or whatever it was. I mean,

788
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 5: it's a tragedy on top of a tragedy. So it's

789
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 5: amazing to staydy is willing to pay all this money

790
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 5: to keep you locked up, but they're not willing to

791
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 5: pay anything to help you when you get out.

792
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: It's so strange. What do you and and Rob?

793
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 5: It's like to me, it seems like the people sitting

794
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 5: on that board their job should be to figure out

795
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 5: how to get you this money and how to help

796
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,959
Speaker 5: you manage it once you do get it. That would

797
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 5: be the job of that board. If I was running it,

798
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 5: I would say, Okay, let's make sure that not only

799
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 5: are you going to get it, but you're going to

800
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 5: know how to invest it. We're going to show you

801
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 5: how to you know, I mean because a lot of

802
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 5: people in your situation coming out and what you were

803
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 5: actually successful businessman already, but many people are not and

804
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 5: this is their first experience having a lump sum of money.

805
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: So how would you fix this? Because it's crazy.

806
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 5: You're literally having to prove your innocence again after a

807
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 5: judge and a jury and a prosecutor everybody else has

808
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 5: decided you're innocent. How would you fix the system? What

809
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 5: do you think it should be?

810
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 4: Well, I think the first thing off the top, it

811
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 4: makes no sense to me for you to put a

812
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 4: prosecutor on the compensation board. I mean, to me, that's

813
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 4: the number one biggest mistake they could do. You know,

814
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 4: a prosecutor to me, will always be a prosecutor no

815
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 4: matter how you look at it. You know, he's never

816
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 4: going to go against other prosecutors who probably convicted you

817
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 4: and they know for a fact you were innocent. There

818
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 4: is a situation that happened in my in my, in

819
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 4: my situation. You know, mister Mike Cromwolls, who was no

820
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 4: longer on the board, but I mean this here, Never

821
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 4: once did he even take the time to say, you

822
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 4: know what, I have an innocent individual here and suddenly,

823
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 4: what am I going to do fix this problem? Instead,

824
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 4: he was up on that seat being a prosecutor. He

825
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 4: questioned me so much in regards to what took place

826
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 4: twenty years ago, instead of focusing on, you know, we

827
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,879
Speaker 4: have an individual years That was the case with him.

828
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 5: It's important to recognize that there are thirty one states

829
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 5: that have compensation statues in nineteen that have none, and

830
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 5: even then in some of those states it's only you

831
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 5: have to have a DNA proof or you have to

832
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 5: have this or that. It's not a streamline system like

833
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 5: it should be. I think to me, once you're proven

834
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 5: innocent and you're out, there should be there's like in Texas,

835
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,240
Speaker 5: there should be a very ironically, Texas has the best system.

836
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: You get eighty thousand per year.

837
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 5: For every year you in you get an annuity, and

838
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 5: sort of ironic that Texas, which most people would think

839
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 5: would have one of the worst systems, actually has one

840
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 5: of the best.

841
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: I know why that is.

842
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 5: It's thanks to Rodney Ellis, who was a state senator

843
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 5: who passed a bill that really changed it, turned it

844
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 5: upside down. And we need to do the same thing

845
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 5: in California. And there are a lot of you should know,

846
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 5: there are a lot of good people working on it,

847
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 5: and I'm going to be helping to lead this charge

848
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 5: to fix it for you and for everyone else like you,

849
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 5: because it's absolutely it's disgusting in my opinion that you

850
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 5: are now having to fight. And by the way, not

851
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 5: only is it as you said, it's the opposite of

852
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 5: what it should be because on top of everything else,

853
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 5: you have to make time in your life, which you

854
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,959
Speaker 5: have enough obligations with three kids, work, struggling everything else,

855
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 5: to go and appear in all these different hearings and

856
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 5: everything else. It's ridiculous. There should just be a check

857
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 5: in the mailbox for you with your name on it

858
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 5: that says, hey, good luck, sorry this happened to you,

859
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 5: you know, looking forward to seeing you succeed moving forward.

860
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 5: Hope this helps something like that, You know what I mean.

861
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 5: But man, it's really I think it's so important that

862
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 5: you're here and talking about this because that problem has

863
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 5: to get fixed, and it has to get fixed at

864
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 5: the highest levels, right And I think I'm going to

865
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 5: be I'm going to be keeping in touch with you,

866
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 5: if it's all right, because I'm going to call on

867
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 5: you maybe to have some meetings with some you know,

868
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 5: people in positions of power who can who can make

869
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 5: these changes, because I believe if if the people that

870
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 5: make these decisions are made aware, which is why it's

871
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 5: so important that you're here, they're going to want to

872
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 5: fix this because it's it's just it just doesn't make

873
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 5: any sense. But I just think people aren't really focused

874
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 5: on it. So the more attention we can bring, the

875
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 5: better it's going to be, obviously for you and everybody else.

876
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: So before before.

877
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 5: We have to wrap up, I wanted to ask you

878
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 5: one more question. There was actually two more questions. One question,

879
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 5: how how is your How are your kids doing?

880
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 4: My kids are doing great, thank god. You know. My

881
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 4: oldest Andrew, he's twenty four. He has about one more year,

882
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 4: about a year and a half left a Long Beach

883
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 4: State to complete the major. My second oldest, he just

884
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 4: gotta to accept this letter to Long be State and

885
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 4: one to Keelsetate Folish and also so I mean, family wise,

886
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 4: I cannot complete one bit. You know. I thank god

887
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 4: that I came out, that my wife done such a

888
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 4: great job with them in those ten years. She you know,

889
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 4: guided them in the right direction. And now these kids

890
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 4: are open and they're they're leading a good life.

891
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 5: It's amazing. That's really an amazing testament to them. And

892
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 5: like you said to your wife, because to grow up

893
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 5: in that situation without their dad and and to be

894
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 5: able to, you know, take that adversity and turn it

895
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 5: into they can call it triumph because it sounds like

896
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 5: they're they're they're knocking it out of the park. I mean,

897
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 5: they're they're doing amazing and that's and it's also it's

898
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 5: also a tribute to you. I mean, you obviously have

899
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 5: had a tremendously positive influence on them. So you know

900
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 5: I wish, I wish you and them all the best

901
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 5: and everything that you deserve before we go, and I

902
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 5: know you have to run, but I always like to

903
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 5: end the show the same way, which is that I

904
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 5: like to This is I think everyone's favorite part of

905
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 5: the show. When I stopped talking, and I just first

906
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 5: of all want to thank you again for being here

907
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 5: taking time. I'm out of your schedule to share your

908
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 5: story with the audience here on Wronfel Conviction. And now

909
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 5: I'm going to turn it over to you just for

910
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 5: any last thoughts that you want to share about anything.

911
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 5: So the microphone is yours, and thank you again for

912
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 5: being here.

913
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 4: Thank you well. I just want to take the time

914
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 4: more than anything to thank my family and my wife,

915
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 4: my kids, my mom, my dad who was no longer

916
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 4: with me, but I mean all my thanks goes to

917
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 4: him because he was one of the ones always in

918
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,760
Speaker 4: the front right with me fighting for this. I also

919
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 4: want to think Justin and all of the California Indusry Project,

920
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 4: Eric Moltop.

921
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 7: Eric Moltop was the.

922
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 4: Key piece to exonerating me, to getting me home, you know,

923
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 4: and lesson, but at least you know, to those prosecutors

924
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 4: and to take us out there. You know, if you're

925
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 4: hearing me, you know, take the time to investigate your cases.

926
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,760
Speaker 4: Don't just look for a conviction. It's not right putting

927
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 4: people in prison as in that command. You're not only

928
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 4: destroying their life, but you're destroying many lives behind their

929
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 4: their kids, their families, I mean, their parents. It just

930
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 4: takes a toll on society itself. You know, I was

931
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 4: one of the lucky ones who it only took ten

932
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 4: years to his alrea. But there are gentlemen out there

933
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 4: who were concentrated for twenty thirty years. Thirty years later,

934
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 4: there's not a life out of here for you. You know,

935
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 4: everything has changed.

936
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 5: I think that's that's a great way to wrap up.

937
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 5: I'm glad you brought up the California Innocence Project. I've

938
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 5: had Justin on the podcast a couple of times, I think,

939
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 5: and he is a huge source of inspiration for me

940
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 5: and everybody in the movement. Of course, right now he's

941
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:54,240
Speaker 5: marching to Sacramento to deliver to deliver petitions for clemency

942
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 5: on behalf of the California twelve. And he really is

943
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 5: just a great, great man, And I want to encourage

944
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 5: everyone to go to California Innocenceproject dot org. That's California

945
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 5: Innocence Project dot org. Get involved, volunteer, donate, hold a fundraiser,

946
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 5: do a bake sale, whatever your thing is. There's too

947
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 5: many people in the same situation that Raphael was in

948
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 5: and we need to go get them out. And uh

949
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 5: and I will say to you now again, Raphael, and

950
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 5: I'll never stop fighting. There's a there's a ton of

951
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 5: good people who care about you and everyone else like

952
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,879
Speaker 5: you out there, so I know you got to get

953
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:36,760
Speaker 5: to work, so I'm not gonna hold you up anymore.

954
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 5: But thanks again. I'm looking forward to meeting you in

955
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 5: California the next time. And uh and and all my

956
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 5: best to you and your family. Likewise, don't forget to

957
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 5: give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.

958
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: It really helps.

959
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 5: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and

960
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 5: I really hope you'll join me and supporting this very

961
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 5: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

962
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 5: to Innocentsproject dot org to learn how to donate and

963
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 5: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

964
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 5: Hall and Kevin Wartis the music in the show is

965
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 5: by three time OSCAR nominated.

966
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: Composer Jay Ralph.

967
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 5: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

968
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 5: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with

969
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 5: Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

970
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 5: and association with Signal Company Number one