WEBVTT - Comfort in the Box: Human Edition 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:14.280 My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:17.599 Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick, 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:20.200 and we're back today to talk about getting in a 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.080 box once again. This is going to be the sequel 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.560 to an episode that aired on Tuesday of this week. 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:29.200 That previous one, we talked about cats getting in boxes, 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:33.479 cats being unable to resist the lure of a cardboard cube, 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.480 and we discussed some biological facts about cats that could 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:43.200 potentially drive the box seeking behavior, including a natural behavioral 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:46.920 preferences for hiding places, especially under stressful conditions. We talked 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:49.720 about some studies about that, but then also things that 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.440 I hadn't thought about as much before, like thermoregulation, which 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:56.280 seems to me to be potentially a big part of 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.520 the explanation of why cats would seek especially some kinds 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:01.880 of box as the kinds that don't really afford anything 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.240 like a hiding place. But we also talked about the 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:08.920 more difficult to explain phenomenon of cats sitting on and 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:12.560 in flat squares on the floor, as well as studies 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:16.199 into cats and visual illusions. Today, we wanted to come 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:18.840 back and look at the human side of this. Humans 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:22.280 desiring to get into the box or get into the square. 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.560 Yeah yeah, because you know your mind can't help. But 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.360 but go in this direction, because I mean, on one level, 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.600 the same cardboard boxes that end up attracting the cat 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.039 in a household, well, it'll attract children for sure. I mean, 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.199 if you've been around children, or ever been a child, 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:40.880 you know the appeal of a box, a big cardboard box, 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:42.360 or so many things you can do with it, cut 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:44.959 some holes in it, some windows, some doors you've you've 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:49.200 got yourself, you know, potentially a whole afternoon of entertainment. 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:51.800 There were you a Ford builder as a child, I 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:55.680 definitely was, Um, I think, yeah, I think so, But 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:59.080 I don't remember having as I feel like there far. 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:00.800 You know, we live in an age now where they're 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:04.680 just where cardboard boxes are just such a regular part 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:08.040 of our life, and as a kid, I don't remember 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:13.280 having as much access to cool giant cardboard boxes. Oh well, 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.399 I just mean in general, I mean building small enclosures 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.000 out of anything you can get, just boxes, because we 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:23.320 would pouch cushions of course, a perfect building material for 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:26.320 indoor forts. But also I recall Uh, with a friend 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:29.520 of mine, we spent one summer at least building a 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:31.840 ford out of sticks in the woods, just sort of 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.040 like you know, leaning them together to create a very 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:35.880 rough sort of hut. I don't think it would have 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.440 been functional as a living space, because the roof would 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:40.320 have leaked if it rained or anything like that, but 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.240 it was still it felt very cool to have built 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:48.280 something that you could get inside. Yeah, And and so 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.200 there's definitely the whole childhood to mension to it, and 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:52.880 I guess we'll continue to touch a bit on that. 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:57.240 But but also I think as adults we can we 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:02.320 can look to boxes and box like in environment, and um, 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.520 it's it's interesting to sort of engage with the degree 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.920 to which we are drawn to these spaces or repulsed 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:12.160 by these spaces, and and sometimes it's hard to figure 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:15.040 out exactly how we feel about them. So we should 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:16.720 go ahead and state the obvious, and that is that 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.720 we know on one level that can that small confined 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:24.120 spaces can be extremely detrimental to human well being. Solitary 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:28.160 confinement is a cruel and debilitating treatment. It's associated with 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:32.040 a whole host of negative mental states. Yes, clearly that's true. 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.160 And another thing is sort of along the same lines 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.080 as when I was trying to find good sources for 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.400 today's episode. For every you know, one source you could 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:43.760 find that has anything to do with a desire for 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:46.520 small spaces, there are going to be a hundred about 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.960 the hatred of small spaces, about claustrophobia and related you 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:54.680 know mind states Like obviously, being in a tight, confined 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:57.000 space when you don't want to be there or against 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:01.200 your will is a major preoccupation of humans. It's really 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:05.520 easy to get obsessed with this idea and really hate it. Yeah. Yeah, 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.920 though at least for some, at least for a segment 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:14.000 of the population, confined spaces of choice can certainly be comforting, 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.960 at least in moderation and if and also I should 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:20.279 say it, sometimes it might be more of a of 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:23.000 a desire for the confined space than a reality of 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.800 the confined space. Uh. And I'll get a little bit 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.680 more into what I mean by that, and just a 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.600 bit um but you know, it should be noted that 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.679 the human beings might not all think of box living 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:38.240 is the ideal way to go. But but we also 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:40.560 we do spend a lot of time living in boxes 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:42.760 in the modern world. I mean, there's a high chance 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:45.760 you're in a box space right now, or if you 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:49.320 were outside, perhaps you can see various box spaces from 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:51.520 where you are. I mean we are creatures of the box. 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.360 Oh you mean not just our houses, but also say 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:57.840 our cars, but also boxes within the boxes. So within 0:04:57.880 --> 0:04:59.880 a house or within an office building where you were, 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.359 you might have a little office or a little corner 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.039 that's sort of made into a partially enclosed thing, or 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:09.160 a cubicle if you're lucky at work. Yeah. But I mean, 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:12.320 but even just talking about our houses in our rooms. Um, 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.000 and I mean I have to admit, like right now, 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:18.080 I am in a small closet, I'm in a confined 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.600 space that, for the most part, feels pretty comfortable. I'm 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.560 pretty I'm pretty happy in this this little confined space. 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.840 I've have my my computer here, I have my mike. Uh, 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.800 there's a bookshelf here that has some some books, some games, 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:34.920 there's some miniatures on it. All the coats in the 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:38.760 house are helping to pad out the sound. So, um, 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:41.760 you know, I I definitely feel a certain attraction to 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:46.240 to a cozy, confined space like this. I it's probably 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:48.680 for me conditioning because I'm used to recording in the 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.400 studio that sort of a dark, padded area when we 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:53.800 were recording in the office, but even recording from home, 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:56.520 I'm also in a box. I am in the corner 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.760 of a room sort of walled off by an acoustic partition. 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:04.400 All that essentially creates a sort of shadowy corner where 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.120 I can explore all the depraved thoughts that that will 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:11.960 eventually become part of this podcast. Now. We we recently 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:16.239 discussed Theogenis in our episode on Beans, the fifth century 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.440 BC cynic philosopher who is said to have lived in 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.520 a tub or a large jar in the streets. Uh 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:24.440 And and after we mentioned I had to look up 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.520 some interpretations of what this might have looked like. You know, 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:29.480 sometimes it is like it looks like a big stone 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.400 barrel that he's living in. Yeah. I think it was 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.720 said to be maybe in the marketplace of Athens. Yeah, 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.400 so right right on the middle of everything. Um. Well, 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:41.000 and ultimately, you know, even a tub large jar not 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.120 that different from a box. And I should point out 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:47.839 that there is a disorder that is known as Diogenes syndrome, 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.599 though it's not tied to the idea of living in 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:56.680 confined spaces. It's actually something of a misnomer as it's characterized. 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.880 The syndrome is characterized by self neglect, squalor hoarding, and 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:05.560 social withdrawal. Diogenes, however, was a minimalist and uh, and 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:08.200 you don't see stories about him hoarding anything that would 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:13.080 run against the whole idea. Nor was he socially withdrawn. No, no, 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:17.000 I mean you could consider Diogenes with drawn in the 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:21.080 sense that he made a point out of rejecting social convention. 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.520 So he was sort of withdrawn from the social contract 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:26.720 in a way of withdrawn from a buy in with 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:30.360 the rest of society and from expectations and norms. But 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.560 he was not withdrawn in terms of his interactions with 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:37.240 other people. He was very public and confrontational about being 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:42.400 not a part of your system. Man. Now you might 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.680 well wonder, well, if there is a psychological disorder associated 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.320 with a desire to live inside a tub or a jar, 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:51.400 a box, you know what, what would we call it? 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:56.240 Perhaps not claustrophobia, but claustrophilia. And yes, there there is 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:00.040 such a classification abnormal pleasure derived from being in a 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.760 confined space. I was looking this up and at least 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:04.360 I found. I don't know if you came across the 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.280 same thing that most of the sources using this term, 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.040 we're using it with a kind of sexual connotation, that 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.960 it was like a particular sexual obsession or fetish for 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.760 being in confined spaces. Um. I ran across a little 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:19.040 of that. I mean for the most party, I just 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.960 you don't see it discussed near as much as claustrophobia. Um. 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.400 And And I guess the thing is, claustrophobia is something 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.760 that can kick in and and be a detriment to 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.720 you know, your your ability to uh to live your life. 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.400 You know, it could prevent you from, say, boarding a 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.960 crowded train that you need to need to board, that 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:43.400 sort of thing, whereas claustrophilia, Um, I mean, I guess 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:47.280 it could get you into some slainness and trouble. But 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:49.160 but but yeah, you just don't see as much literature 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.120 about it. Um you you, Yeah, you do see some 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:53.959 stuff that that seems to be going in a more 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.640 erotic direction. But even some of that, I feel like 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:01.120 it's getting into an area where you're not necessarily talking 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.320 about like pure titillation. You're ultimately getting at this sort 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:09.400 of this idea of enclosure and the comforting aspect of enclosure, 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:11.720 even if it is discussed in an area that is 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.800 like um, you know, closer to um more, you know, 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:21.200 erotic considerations. But for instance, there was one paper that 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:25.320 I found, a Romanian paper recently published titled what If 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.320 I Didn't Go Out Anymore, which which I think is 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:32.439 a great, great title by Rosella Valdre. And uh, I 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.640 wasn't able to get access to the full paper, so 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:37.520 I'll just read that the abstract here, which I think 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:41.800 gets to the the heart of what the author is discussing. Quote. 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:45.160 One of the psychological reactions to the COVID nineteen lockdowns 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:50.920 is psychic withdrawal claustrophilia. The author asks why this paradoxical 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:55.760 reaction occurs, naming the death drive and fear of freedom. 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:57.800 Now you can probably hear from some of the keywords 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:00.360 at the end of this that this paper I looked at, 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:03.560 this is actually published in a journal for psychoanalysis, which 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.559 means we're in Freudian or Freudian adjacent territory. So I 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:09.319 guess we don't know what the I don't know empirical 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:13.560 or modern scientific validity of the explanation given in this 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.400 paper would be but I think the phenomenon it identifies 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.120 as something I've seen expressed a good bid actually, that 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.400 there is a certain personality type and a certain way 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.920 that some people have adapted to, uh to the COVID 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.960 nineteen lockdowns that says, I don't know, I don't know 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.120 if I really need to leave my house anymore. I 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.360 there there there are certain aspects of ongoing quarantine that 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:39.120 are kind of appealing. Now, obviously that's not going to 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.640 be true of everybody. I you know, I personally, Ever 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.200 since the two week mark after my second vaccination, I 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.560 have been thrilled at the prospect of of getting out 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.199 of the house more often, and especially being able to 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.920 be around other other people more often. That that's been 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.840 really exciting to me, even though I think I'm overall 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.240 a pretty introverted person, like I like being by myself, elf, 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.440 I like being at home. Uh. You know, it's just 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.040 they're sort of pent up demand that has built in 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:07.400 my brain over the past year. But that's not there 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.000 for everybody. Some people. Some people are like, yeah, I 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.720 kind of like how things are for me. Yeah, And 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:15.079 I guess you also have to realize you can divide 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:16.760 it up in different ways, like there are people that 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.480 are that are that I'm sure all about, like getting 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.920 out back out there socially seeing friends and family, but 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:25.520 might be more of this school when it comes to 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:28.880 work and say, actually, why should I ever leave my 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.640 house to work? Like can't I why why do I 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:33.840 need to be in an office? Like it's gonna be 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:35.840 it's I mean, it probably already is interesting in a 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.160 lot of places where they're having to to re examine 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:44.280 the purpose of the physical shared workspace and then potentially 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:48.080 have to make a case for it to uh to 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.760 their employees or you know whoever. Um. Whereas before it 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:53.160 was just kind of a given well of course we 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:57.000 all come and we share a single space to work, um. 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.840 But now they're potentially having to put to go out 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:02.559 there and say, hey, everybody, why don't we come back 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.760 together and work in one big space again and share 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.200 a coffee maker? Ding? Ding ding? You have got my 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:11.080 number here. Yeah, I've been really excited ever since getting 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:15.120 vaccinated to see friends more often. I have no desire 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.120 to to go back to a shared workspace except I 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.240 mean except that, I mean, it's not that I don't 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:23.600 like seeing my coworkers. I very much do. I would 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.200 like to see all of our co workers again. Socially, 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.000 I just don't want to have to work around other people. 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.480 I'm so much more productive at home by myself, where 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:36.200 I can focus and not be distracted by a workplace. Yeah, 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:37.880 and so yeah, I think it's going to break down 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.480 differently for different people. But of course, as sort of 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.440 an introvert myself, I also I can also get a 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:46.880 sense of this too, where there's a lot of movement 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.400 to open back up and you know, being to get 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:53.120 back out there, and after you know, over a year 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.559 of of doing the opposite, you know, it can it 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:58.840 can feel a little much, you can feel a little threatening, 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.520 you know. Uh, the the idea of of going you 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.000 know from you know, from zero to fifty and too 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:06.800 short of a time, and I think there is I 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:10.320 have seen some some authors online talking about the idea of, 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.800 you know, the importance even of finding like middle ground 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:15.880 things you can do to sort of work back up 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.240 to things like this, so you know, and instead of 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:22.480 like your first thing back out in the world shouldn't 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:25.199 shouldn't be uh, you know, going to seventy miles per hour, 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.160 it should maybe you know, do go to twenty five 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.400 miles per hours. See what that feels like. Maybe start 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.480 with a small get together with other vaccinated friends instead 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.280 of the monster truck show. Yeah yeah, don't and and 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.400 immediately go to the monster truck show or the or 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.760 the Mega concert or whatever it happens to be. But 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.560 but back just to the idea of of small, tied 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:50.720 and closed spaces, comfy places being appealing. Um uh you know, 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.120 even though there are you know, negative aspects again to 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.400 such spaces. Uh I, I have to admit to having 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.400 felt this kind of draw to such space is throughout 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:04.480 my life. And sometimes it is an actual space that 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.000 I'm inhabiting, like you know, the closet here for the 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.360 for the podcasting. Other times I do think it gets 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.720 more into not the reality of the enclosed space, but 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.320 just the idea of the enclosed space, the vision, the 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:19.240 mental image of the enclosed space, or a or a 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:22.840 physical representation of something that looks like a a comfy 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:26.040 enclosed environment. Yeah, I mean, I wonder about the extent 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:30.120 to which some of the appeal of tight enclosed spaces 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:34.760 is um at the conceptual level. It's not even necessarily 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:39.080 like a physical sensory thing, but something about the idea 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:43.280 of being in a small space. Yeah. So when I 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.760 was a kid, I remember I would have um, I 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:47.640 had this dream and either I don't know if it 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.360 was a recurring dream or just a very vivid dream 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.840 that I had once that I just always remembered, but 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:55.720 it was. It was in my house at the time, 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:59.200 and I found a sort of tunnel underneath the stairs 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.360 and it was painted, uh and carpeted with wall to 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:04.560 ark hall carpeting the same as the rest of the home, 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.040 and the tunnel extended maybe eight feet back. They made 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.520 a sharp turn left, and it was a well lit 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.120 environment in the dream, despite their you know, they're they're 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.240 not being any presence of lights that I remember. But 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:19.800 if you if you follow this this little tunnel back 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.240 then you took that turn, uh, it would go for 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:25.120 a little bit and then it would have another turn 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:26.720 and it would so there would be like a kind 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.320 of a spiraling around and then it would terminate in 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.400 a cubical space that was just large enough for me 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:36.080 to ball up comfortably. But either in this dream or 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.760 in subsequent dreams, my body grew to where I can 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:43.440 no longer comfortably venture into the heart of this this place. Uh, 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:45.800 and then I ultimately couldn't reach the heart of it 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.080 at all. Wow. So, you know, without going crazy with 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.960 dream interpretation, because I don't know, I'm I'm kind of 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:55.960 increasingly of the the night Blender school of dreams, where 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.680 none of it means anything, but there are are obvious 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:03.080 pair of else to make between this idea and anxieties 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:07.000 of say, leaving childhood, of growing up, even a desire 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.280 to return to the womb um if you want to 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:11.200 get real Freudian about it, because of course, this is 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:15.200 central to the Freudian dual concepts of Aarros and Thanatos 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.560 Thanatos the god of death personification of the death drive, 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:21.080 and Arrows, the god of love, and this is linked 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.480 to a desire to return to the safety of the womb. 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:28.160 You know, without buying into the explanatory validity of Freudian concepts, 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:31.200 I do think that there's something interesting about the idea 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:34.000 of of the death drive as it relates to I 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.440 don't know, a sort of a sort of desire for 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.120 the mortification of the flesh that that I want to 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.680 link up to to a historical example I have in 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.400 just a minute. Yeah, and of course, often, of course, 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:49.960 Freudian thought takes a decidedly sexual tone uh in its explorations. 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.440 But but even in a like a non sexual way. 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:54.680 I feel like this, this idea of returning the womb, 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.640 I feel like it. It holds a certain amount of 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:00.960 truthiness to it. It. It actually reminds me of a 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:05.600 wonderful short bit in a recent episode of The John 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.479 Oliver Show where he talked about his desire to be 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:11.600 an egg. Um. I think the basic setup was like, 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:13.120 this is the kind of thing you don't actually share 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:15.200 with your partner, your your desire to be an egg. 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:18.720 And he goes on this extended a little monologue about 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.200 the desire to be an egg, and like the comforting, 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.119 how comfortable it would be to not only like to 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:26.320 be inside the egg, but to be the egg, to 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:31.800 be the goo within the the the protective outer shell 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:35.320 of the egg. Yeah, beautifully expressed. Actually to be in 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:37.560 there alone with the goop, just to you, in the goup, 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.640 and knowing that whoever is around you outside you has 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:44.200 to handle you very carefully. Yeah. And so I feel 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:46.960 like it got to the heart of this sort of 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.440 often kind of abstract or subconscious thing I feel when 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:55.040 I'm especially if I'm looking at pictures of something or 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:58.800 or encountering a setting in a motion picture or TV show, 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:03.920 so especially tidy and cozy ship or train cabins um 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.359 for instance, I really enjoyed the first two seasons of 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.000 the snow Piercer TV show, and I think part of 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.080 it is the way they depict some of the tight 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.680 living spaces. I'm like, oh, I can I can imagine 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:16.359 being in there. I can imagine curling up in that 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.399 bed that's set into the wall. I haven't seen the show. 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.320 I did see the movie snow Piercer, and I liked 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.320 the movie, but there was absolutely nothing about it that 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:27.959 was appealing whatsoever to me. Well, it may be a 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:30.960 difference in how the show is. The sets are done well, 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.399 I think, but I think the main difference is, of 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.840 course the movie, which is also really good. The movie 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:38.959 only has so much time and they've got to get 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.440 to that bloody revolution, whereas the TV show just has 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.040 more time to deal with, more space to lay out 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:46.919 the world of the show, in the world of the train, 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:49.880 and therefore you get those moments where you're like, oh, 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:52.880 I can imagine being in there. Nobody's dying in here 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:56.160 right now, it seems fine. Now, apart from the post 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.399 apocalyptic setting, in general, I just do really love the 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.840 idea of old train compartment, little private compartment and a train. 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:07.639 It's it's just lovely. Yeah, absolutely. Uh. Now another area 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.320 and then this again goes to sci fi, is when 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.679 you encounter a good suspended animation chamber in science fiction, 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:17.560 like the like the Stasis pods, an alien even I 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.240 find for me anyway, even when they give those pods 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.080 kind of a darker tone, you know, like you're throwing 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:24.480 up when you get out of it, or you're weak 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:26.000 when you get out of it, or you're you know, 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.520 they're really leaning into the sort of glass casket uh 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.439 Grimm's fairy tale, uh, you know version of it. I 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.600 often find them kind of relaxing to think about. Maybe 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.320 not at a you know, an actual conscious level where 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:40.960 I'm like, oh, man, I wish I was in there 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:44.600 and Michael Fastbender was threatening me with experiments in my dreams, 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.399 but more like there's just something in me where I'm like, 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.360 that looks comfy and safe and nice. I just want 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:55.280 to be the mummy of Vladimir Linen. Yeah, it's that 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:57.359 sort of thing. And again It's like if I, if 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:00.199 I stopped and I apply rational thought to it, it 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.240 maybe doesn't sound so great, you know, or even just 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:05.119 apply it to the plot of the thing that it 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.760 is embedded within. But on some level it seems nice. 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:12.280 And I feel like this this even applies to uh 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.479 two really nice coffins and caskets. I don't know if 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:18.720 you've had this experience as well, But if I'm like, 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.360 if I'm like checking out or it's it's not like 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:23.359 if I'm at an actual funeral, but if I'm just 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:27.360 thinking about caskets or caskets show up in a film, um, 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.119 I'll sometimes look at them and be like, yeah, that 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:32.600 that looks that looks pretty comfy. There's something attractive about that. 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:34.840 And I realized part of it is that, yeah, that's 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.400 kind of the whole game of casket making and casket 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.960 salesmanship because it don't yeah there for the living. The 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:43.800 living have to look at that and think I would 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.600 I think I'd be comfortable in there. So the my 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.480 you know, deceased, love when they will be comfortable in there, 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.680 even though of course they're they're dead. It doesn't matter 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:55.480 to them where they are. It makes me think of 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:58.240 the scene in Edwood where Bella Lego see is coffin 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:00.960 shopping and he's trying out laying in all the coffins 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:06.800 and I can't even fold my arms. Yeah, um, I 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.439 think it is. Also it is also compounded by the 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:14.640