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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of

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Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick,

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Speaker 1: and we're back today to talk about getting in a

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Speaker 1: box once again. This is going to be the sequel

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Speaker 1: to an episode that aired on Tuesday of this week.

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Speaker 1: That previous one, we talked about cats getting in boxes,

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Speaker 1: cats being unable to resist the lure of a cardboard cube,

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Speaker 1: and we discussed some biological facts about cats that could

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Speaker 1: potentially drive the box seeking behavior, including a natural behavioral

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Speaker 1: preferences for hiding places, especially under stressful conditions. We talked

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Speaker 1: about some studies about that, but then also things that

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Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about as much before, like thermoregulation, which

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Speaker 1: seems to me to be potentially a big part of

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Speaker 1: the explanation of why cats would seek especially some kinds

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Speaker 1: of box as the kinds that don't really afford anything

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Speaker 1: like a hiding place. But we also talked about the

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Speaker 1: more difficult to explain phenomenon of cats sitting on and

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Speaker 1: in flat squares on the floor, as well as studies

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Speaker 1: into cats and visual illusions. Today, we wanted to come

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Speaker 1: back and look at the human side of this. Humans

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Speaker 1: desiring to get into the box or get into the square.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, because you know your mind can't help. But

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Speaker 1: but go in this direction, because I mean, on one level,

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Speaker 1: the same cardboard boxes that end up attracting the cat

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Speaker 1: in a household, well, it'll attract children for sure. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you've been around children, or ever been a child,

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Speaker 1: you know the appeal of a box, a big cardboard box,

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Speaker 1: or so many things you can do with it, cut

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Speaker 1: some holes in it, some windows, some doors you've you've

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Speaker 1: got yourself, you know, potentially a whole afternoon of entertainment.

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Speaker 1: There were you a Ford builder as a child, I

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Speaker 1: definitely was, Um, I think, yeah, I think so, But

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Speaker 1: I don't remember having as I feel like there far.

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Speaker 1: You know, we live in an age now where they're

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Speaker 1: just where cardboard boxes are just such a regular part

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Speaker 1: of our life, and as a kid, I don't remember

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Speaker 1: having as much access to cool giant cardboard boxes. Oh well,

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Speaker 1: I just mean in general, I mean building small enclosures

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Speaker 1: out of anything you can get, just boxes, because we

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Speaker 1: would pouch cushions of course, a perfect building material for

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Speaker 1: indoor forts. But also I recall Uh, with a friend

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Speaker 1: of mine, we spent one summer at least building a

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Speaker 1: ford out of sticks in the woods, just sort of

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Speaker 1: like you know, leaning them together to create a very

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Speaker 1: rough sort of hut. I don't think it would have

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Speaker 1: been functional as a living space, because the roof would

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Speaker 1: have leaked if it rained or anything like that, but

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Speaker 1: it was still it felt very cool to have built

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Speaker 1: something that you could get inside. Yeah, And and so

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Speaker 1: there's definitely the whole childhood to mension to it, and

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Speaker 1: I guess we'll continue to touch a bit on that.

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Speaker 1: But but also I think as adults we can we

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Speaker 1: can look to boxes and box like in environment, and um,

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Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to sort of engage with the degree

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Speaker 1: to which we are drawn to these spaces or repulsed

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Speaker 1: by these spaces, and and sometimes it's hard to figure

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Speaker 1: out exactly how we feel about them. So we should

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Speaker 1: go ahead and state the obvious, and that is that

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Speaker 1: we know on one level that can that small confined

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Speaker 1: spaces can be extremely detrimental to human well being. Solitary

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Speaker 1: confinement is a cruel and debilitating treatment. It's associated with

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Speaker 1: a whole host of negative mental states. Yes, clearly that's true.

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Speaker 1: And another thing is sort of along the same lines

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Speaker 1: as when I was trying to find good sources for

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Speaker 1: today's episode. For every you know, one source you could

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Speaker 1: find that has anything to do with a desire for

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Speaker 1: small spaces, there are going to be a hundred about

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Speaker 1: the hatred of small spaces, about claustrophobia and related you

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Speaker 1: know mind states Like obviously, being in a tight, confined

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Speaker 1: space when you don't want to be there or against

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Speaker 1: your will is a major preoccupation of humans. It's really

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Speaker 1: easy to get obsessed with this idea and really hate it. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: though at least for some, at least for a segment

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Speaker 1: of the population, confined spaces of choice can certainly be comforting,

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Speaker 1: at least in moderation and if and also I should

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Speaker 1: say it, sometimes it might be more of a of

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Speaker 1: a desire for the confined space than a reality of

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Speaker 1: the confined space. Uh. And I'll get a little bit

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Speaker 1: more into what I mean by that, and just a

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Speaker 1: bit um but you know, it should be noted that

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Speaker 1: the human beings might not all think of box living

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Speaker 1: is the ideal way to go. But but we also

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Speaker 1: we do spend a lot of time living in boxes

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Speaker 1: in the modern world. I mean, there's a high chance

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Speaker 1: you're in a box space right now, or if you

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Speaker 1: were outside, perhaps you can see various box spaces from

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Speaker 1: where you are. I mean we are creatures of the box.

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Speaker 1: Oh you mean not just our houses, but also say

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Speaker 1: our cars, but also boxes within the boxes. So within

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Speaker 1: a house or within an office building where you were,

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Speaker 1: you might have a little office or a little corner

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Speaker 1: that's sort of made into a partially enclosed thing, or

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Speaker 1: a cubicle if you're lucky at work. Yeah. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: but even just talking about our houses in our rooms. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I mean I have to admit, like right now,

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Speaker 1: I am in a small closet, I'm in a confined

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Speaker 1: space that, for the most part, feels pretty comfortable. I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty I'm pretty happy in this this little confined space.

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Speaker 1: I've have my my computer here, I have my mike. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's a bookshelf here that has some some books, some games,

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Speaker 1: there's some miniatures on it. All the coats in the

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Speaker 1: house are helping to pad out the sound. So, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I I definitely feel a certain attraction to

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Speaker 1: to a cozy, confined space like this. I it's probably

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Speaker 1: for me conditioning because I'm used to recording in the

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Speaker 1: studio that sort of a dark, padded area when we

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Speaker 1: were recording in the office, but even recording from home,

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Speaker 1: I'm also in a box. I am in the corner

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Speaker 1: of a room sort of walled off by an acoustic partition.

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Speaker 1: All that essentially creates a sort of shadowy corner where

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Speaker 1: I can explore all the depraved thoughts that that will

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Speaker 1: eventually become part of this podcast. Now. We we recently

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Speaker 1: discussed Theogenis in our episode on Beans, the fifth century

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Speaker 1: BC cynic philosopher who is said to have lived in

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Speaker 1: a tub or a large jar in the streets. Uh

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Speaker 1: And and after we mentioned I had to look up

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Speaker 1: some interpretations of what this might have looked like. You know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it is like it looks like a big stone

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Speaker 1: barrel that he's living in. Yeah. I think it was

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Speaker 1: said to be maybe in the marketplace of Athens. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so right right on the middle of everything. Um. Well,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately, you know, even a tub large jar not

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Speaker 1: that different from a box. And I should point out

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Speaker 1: that there is a disorder that is known as Diogenes syndrome,

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Speaker 1: though it's not tied to the idea of living in

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Speaker 1: confined spaces. It's actually something of a misnomer as it's characterized.

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Speaker 1: The syndrome is characterized by self neglect, squalor hoarding, and

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Speaker 1: social withdrawal. Diogenes, however, was a minimalist and uh, and

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Speaker 1: you don't see stories about him hoarding anything that would

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Speaker 1: run against the whole idea. Nor was he socially withdrawn. No, no,

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Speaker 1: I mean you could consider Diogenes with drawn in the

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Speaker 1: sense that he made a point out of rejecting social convention.

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Speaker 1: So he was sort of withdrawn from the social contract

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Speaker 1: in a way of withdrawn from a buy in with

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Speaker 1: the rest of society and from expectations and norms. But

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Speaker 1: he was not withdrawn in terms of his interactions with

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Speaker 1: other people. He was very public and confrontational about being

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Speaker 1: not a part of your system. Man. Now you might

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Speaker 1: well wonder, well, if there is a psychological disorder associated

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Speaker 1: with a desire to live inside a tub or a jar,

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Speaker 1: a box, you know what, what would we call it?

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Speaker 1: Perhaps not claustrophobia, but claustrophilia. And yes, there there is

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Speaker 1: such a classification abnormal pleasure derived from being in a

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Speaker 1: confined space. I was looking this up and at least

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Speaker 1: I found. I don't know if you came across the

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Speaker 1: same thing that most of the sources using this term,

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Speaker 1: we're using it with a kind of sexual connotation, that

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Speaker 1: it was like a particular sexual obsession or fetish for

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Speaker 1: being in confined spaces. Um. I ran across a little

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Speaker 1: of that. I mean for the most party, I just

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Speaker 1: you don't see it discussed near as much as claustrophobia. Um.

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Speaker 1: And And I guess the thing is, claustrophobia is something

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Speaker 1: that can kick in and and be a detriment to

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Speaker 1: you know, your your ability to uh to live your life.

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Speaker 1: You know, it could prevent you from, say, boarding a

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Speaker 1: crowded train that you need to need to board, that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing, whereas claustrophilia, Um, I mean, I guess

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Speaker 1: it could get you into some slainness and trouble. But

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Speaker 1: but but yeah, you just don't see as much literature

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Speaker 1: about it. Um you you, Yeah, you do see some

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Speaker 1: stuff that that seems to be going in a more

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Speaker 1: erotic direction. But even some of that, I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's getting into an area where you're not necessarily talking

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Speaker 1: about like pure titillation. You're ultimately getting at this sort

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Speaker 1: of this idea of enclosure and the comforting aspect of enclosure,

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Speaker 1: even if it is discussed in an area that is

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Speaker 1: like um, you know, closer to um more, you know,

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Speaker 1: erotic considerations. But for instance, there was one paper that

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Speaker 1: I found, a Romanian paper recently published titled what If

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Speaker 1: I Didn't Go Out Anymore, which which I think is

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Speaker 1: a great, great title by Rosella Valdre. And uh, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't able to get access to the full paper, so

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Speaker 1: I'll just read that the abstract here, which I think

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Speaker 1: gets to the the heart of what the author is discussing. Quote.

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Speaker 1: One of the psychological reactions to the COVID nineteen lockdowns

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Speaker 1: is psychic withdrawal claustrophilia. The author asks why this paradoxical

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Speaker 1: reaction occurs, naming the death drive and fear of freedom.

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Speaker 1: Now you can probably hear from some of the keywords

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Speaker 1: at the end of this that this paper I looked at,

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Speaker 1: this is actually published in a journal for psychoanalysis, which

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Speaker 1: means we're in Freudian or Freudian adjacent territory. So I

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Speaker 1: guess we don't know what the I don't know empirical

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Speaker 1: or modern scientific validity of the explanation given in this

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Speaker 1: paper would be but I think the phenomenon it identifies

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Speaker 1: as something I've seen expressed a good bid actually, that

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Speaker 1: there is a certain personality type and a certain way

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Speaker 1: that some people have adapted to, uh to the COVID

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Speaker 1: nineteen lockdowns that says, I don't know, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I really need to leave my house anymore. I

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Speaker 1: there there there are certain aspects of ongoing quarantine that

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Speaker 1: are kind of appealing. Now, obviously that's not going to

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Speaker 1: be true of everybody. I you know, I personally, Ever

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Speaker 1: since the two week mark after my second vaccination, I

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Speaker 1: have been thrilled at the prospect of of getting out

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Speaker 1: of the house more often, and especially being able to

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Speaker 1: be around other other people more often. That that's been

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Speaker 1: really exciting to me, even though I think I'm overall

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Speaker 1: a pretty introverted person, like I like being by myself, elf,

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Speaker 1: I like being at home. Uh. You know, it's just

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Speaker 1: they're sort of pent up demand that has built in

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Speaker 1: my brain over the past year. But that's not there

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Speaker 1: for everybody. Some people. Some people are like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: kind of like how things are for me. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I guess you also have to realize you can divide

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Speaker 1: it up in different ways, like there are people that

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Speaker 1: are that are that I'm sure all about, like getting

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Speaker 1: out back out there socially seeing friends and family, but

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Speaker 1: might be more of this school when it comes to

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Speaker 1: work and say, actually, why should I ever leave my

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Speaker 1: house to work? Like can't I why why do I

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Speaker 1: need to be in an office? Like it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: it's I mean, it probably already is interesting in a

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Speaker 1: lot of places where they're having to to re examine

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Speaker 1: the purpose of the physical shared workspace and then potentially

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Speaker 1: have to make a case for it to uh to

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Speaker 1: their employees or you know whoever. Um. Whereas before it

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Speaker 1: was just kind of a given well of course we

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Speaker 1: all come and we share a single space to work, um.

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Speaker 1: But now they're potentially having to put to go out

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Speaker 1: there and say, hey, everybody, why don't we come back

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Speaker 1: together and work in one big space again and share

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Speaker 1: a coffee maker? Ding? Ding ding? You have got my

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Speaker 1: number here. Yeah, I've been really excited ever since getting

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Speaker 1: vaccinated to see friends more often. I have no desire

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Speaker 1: to to go back to a shared workspace except I

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Speaker 1: mean except that, I mean, it's not that I don't

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Speaker 1: like seeing my coworkers. I very much do. I would

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Speaker 1: like to see all of our co workers again. Socially,

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Speaker 1: I just don't want to have to work around other people.

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Speaker 1: I'm so much more productive at home by myself, where

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Speaker 1: I can focus and not be distracted by a workplace. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, I think it's going to break down

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Speaker 1: differently for different people. But of course, as sort of

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Speaker 1: an introvert myself, I also I can also get a

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Speaker 1: sense of this too, where there's a lot of movement

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Speaker 1: to open back up and you know, being to get

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Speaker 1: back out there, and after you know, over a year

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Speaker 1: of of doing the opposite, you know, it can it

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Speaker 1: can feel a little much, you can feel a little threatening,

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Speaker 1: you know. Uh, the the idea of of going you

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Speaker 1: know from you know, from zero to fifty and too

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Speaker 1: short of a time, and I think there is I

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Speaker 1: have seen some some authors online talking about the idea of,

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Speaker 1: you know, the importance even of finding like middle ground

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Speaker 1: things you can do to sort of work back up

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Speaker 1: to things like this, so you know, and instead of

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Speaker 1: like your first thing back out in the world shouldn't

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be uh, you know, going to seventy miles per hour,

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Speaker 1: it should maybe you know, do go to twenty five

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Speaker 1: miles per hours. See what that feels like. Maybe start

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Speaker 1: with a small get together with other vaccinated friends instead

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Speaker 1: of the monster truck show. Yeah yeah, don't and and

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Speaker 1: immediately go to the monster truck show or the or

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Speaker 1: the Mega concert or whatever it happens to be. But

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Speaker 1: but back just to the idea of of small, tied

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Speaker 1: and closed spaces, comfy places being appealing. Um uh you know,

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Speaker 1: even though there are you know, negative aspects again to

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Speaker 1: such spaces. Uh I, I have to admit to having

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Speaker 1: felt this kind of draw to such space is throughout

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Speaker 1: my life. And sometimes it is an actual space that

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Speaker 1: I'm inhabiting, like you know, the closet here for the

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Speaker 1: for the podcasting. Other times I do think it gets

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Speaker 1: more into not the reality of the enclosed space, but

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Speaker 1: just the idea of the enclosed space, the vision, the

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Speaker 1: mental image of the enclosed space, or a or a

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Speaker 1: physical representation of something that looks like a a comfy

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Speaker 1: enclosed environment. Yeah, I mean, I wonder about the extent

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Speaker 1: to which some of the appeal of tight enclosed spaces

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Speaker 1: is um at the conceptual level. It's not even necessarily

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Speaker 1: like a physical sensory thing, but something about the idea

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Speaker 1: of being in a small space. Yeah. So when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid, I remember I would have um, I

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Speaker 1: had this dream and either I don't know if it

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Speaker 1: was a recurring dream or just a very vivid dream

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Speaker 1: that I had once that I just always remembered, but

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Speaker 1: it was. It was in my house at the time,

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Speaker 1: and I found a sort of tunnel underneath the stairs

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Speaker 1: and it was painted, uh and carpeted with wall to

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Speaker 1: ark hall carpeting the same as the rest of the home,

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Speaker 1: and the tunnel extended maybe eight feet back. They made

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Speaker 1: a sharp turn left, and it was a well lit

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Speaker 1: environment in the dream, despite their you know, they're they're

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Speaker 1: not being any presence of lights that I remember. But

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Speaker 1: if you if you follow this this little tunnel back

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Speaker 1: then you took that turn, uh, it would go for

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Speaker 1: a little bit and then it would have another turn

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Speaker 1: and it would so there would be like a kind

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Speaker 1: of a spiraling around and then it would terminate in

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Speaker 1: a cubical space that was just large enough for me

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Speaker 1: to ball up comfortably. But either in this dream or

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Speaker 1: in subsequent dreams, my body grew to where I can

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Speaker 1: no longer comfortably venture into the heart of this this place. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and then I ultimately couldn't reach the heart of it

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Speaker 1: at all. Wow. So, you know, without going crazy with

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Speaker 1: dream interpretation, because I don't know, I'm I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: increasingly of the the night Blender school of dreams, where

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Speaker 1: none of it means anything, but there are are obvious

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Speaker 1: pair of else to make between this idea and anxieties

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Speaker 1: of say, leaving childhood, of growing up, even a desire

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Speaker 1: to return to the womb um if you want to

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Speaker 1: get real Freudian about it, because of course, this is

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Speaker 1: central to the Freudian dual concepts of Aarros and Thanatos

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Speaker 1: Thanatos the god of death personification of the death drive,

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Speaker 1: and Arrows, the god of love, and this is linked

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Speaker 1: to a desire to return to the safety of the womb.

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Speaker 1: You know, without buying into the explanatory validity of Freudian concepts,

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Speaker 1: I do think that there's something interesting about the idea

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Speaker 1: of of the death drive as it relates to I

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Speaker 1: don't know, a sort of a sort of desire for

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Speaker 1: the mortification of the flesh that that I want to

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Speaker 1: link up to to a historical example I have in

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Speaker 1: just a minute. Yeah, and of course, often, of course,

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Speaker 1: Freudian thought takes a decidedly sexual tone uh in its explorations.

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Speaker 1: But but even in a like a non sexual way.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this, this idea of returning the womb,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it. It holds a certain amount of

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Speaker 1: truthiness to it. It. It actually reminds me of a

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Speaker 1: wonderful short bit in a recent episode of The John

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Speaker 1: Oliver Show where he talked about his desire to be

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Speaker 1: an egg. Um. I think the basic setup was like,

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Speaker 1: this is the kind of thing you don't actually share

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Speaker 1: with your partner, your your desire to be an egg.

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Speaker 1: And he goes on this extended a little monologue about

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Speaker 1: the desire to be an egg, and like the comforting,

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Speaker 1: how comfortable it would be to not only like to

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Speaker 1: be inside the egg, but to be the egg, to

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Speaker 1: be the goo within the the the protective outer shell

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Speaker 1: of the egg. Yeah, beautifully expressed. Actually to be in

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Speaker 1: there alone with the goop, just to you, in the goup,

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Speaker 1: and knowing that whoever is around you outside you has

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Speaker 1: to handle you very carefully. Yeah. And so I feel

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Speaker 1: like it got to the heart of this sort of

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Speaker 1: often kind of abstract or subconscious thing I feel when

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Speaker 1: I'm especially if I'm looking at pictures of something or

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Speaker 1: or encountering a setting in a motion picture or TV show,

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Speaker 1: so especially tidy and cozy ship or train cabins um

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Speaker 1: for instance, I really enjoyed the first two seasons of

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Speaker 1: the snow Piercer TV show, and I think part of

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Speaker 1: it is the way they depict some of the tight

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Speaker 1: living spaces. I'm like, oh, I can I can imagine

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Speaker 1: being in there. I can imagine curling up in that

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Speaker 1: bed that's set into the wall. I haven't seen the show.

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Speaker 1: I did see the movie snow Piercer, and I liked

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Speaker 1: the movie, but there was absolutely nothing about it that

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Speaker 1: was appealing whatsoever to me. Well, it may be a

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Speaker 1: difference in how the show is. The sets are done well,

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Speaker 1: I think, but I think the main difference is, of

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Speaker 1: course the movie, which is also really good. The movie

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Speaker 1: only has so much time and they've got to get

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Speaker 1: to that bloody revolution, whereas the TV show just has

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Speaker 1: more time to deal with, more space to lay out

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Speaker 1: the world of the show, in the world of the train,

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Speaker 1: and therefore you get those moments where you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I can imagine being in there. Nobody's dying in here

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Speaker 1: right now, it seems fine. Now, apart from the post

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Speaker 1: apocalyptic setting, in general, I just do really love the

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Speaker 1: idea of old train compartment, little private compartment and a train.

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00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,639
Speaker 1: It's it's just lovely. Yeah, absolutely. Uh. Now another area

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Speaker 1: and then this again goes to sci fi, is when

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Speaker 1: you encounter a good suspended animation chamber in science fiction,

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Speaker 1: like the like the Stasis pods, an alien even I

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Speaker 1: find for me anyway, even when they give those pods

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Speaker 1: kind of a darker tone, you know, like you're throwing

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Speaker 1: up when you get out of it, or you're weak

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Speaker 1: when you get out of it, or you're you know,

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Speaker 1: they're really leaning into the sort of glass casket uh

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Speaker 1: Grimm's fairy tale, uh, you know version of it. I

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Speaker 1: often find them kind of relaxing to think about. Maybe

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Speaker 1: not at a you know, an actual conscious level where

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, man, I wish I was in there

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Speaker 1: and Michael Fastbender was threatening me with experiments in my dreams,

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Speaker 1: but more like there's just something in me where I'm like,

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Speaker 1: that looks comfy and safe and nice. I just want

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Speaker 1: to be the mummy of Vladimir Linen. Yeah, it's that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. And again It's like if I, if

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Speaker 1: I stopped and I apply rational thought to it, it

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Speaker 1: maybe doesn't sound so great, you know, or even just

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Speaker 1: apply it to the plot of the thing that it

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Speaker 1: is embedded within. But on some level it seems nice.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like this this even applies to uh

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Speaker 1: two really nice coffins and caskets. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you've had this experience as well, But if I'm like,

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Speaker 1: if I'm like checking out or it's it's not like

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Speaker 1: if I'm at an actual funeral, but if I'm just

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Speaker 1: thinking about caskets or caskets show up in a film, um,

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Speaker 1: I'll sometimes look at them and be like, yeah, that

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00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 1: that looks that looks pretty comfy. There's something attractive about that.

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Speaker 1: And I realized part of it is that, yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: kind of the whole game of casket making and casket

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Speaker 1: salesmanship because it don't yeah there for the living. The

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Speaker 1: living have to look at that and think I would

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Speaker 1: I think I'd be comfortable in there. So the my

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Speaker 1: you know, deceased, love when they will be comfortable in there,

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Speaker 1: even though of course they're they're dead. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: to them where they are. It makes me think of

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Speaker 1: the scene in Edwood where Bella Lego see is coffin

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Speaker 1: shopping and he's trying out laying in all the coffins

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00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 1: and I can't even fold my arms. Yeah, um, I

400
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 1: think it is. Also it is also compounded by the

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Speaker 1: fact that even though I have never actually tried out

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Speaker 1: a coffin, Um, you see this in films all the time,

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Speaker 1: where someone is like that, you know, trying out a coffin,

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Speaker 1: or they're hiding in a coffin to get away from

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Speaker 1: bad guys, or maybe they've even been buried alive but live.

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00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 1: People find themselves in in coffins all the time in cinema. Now,

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Speaker 1: as much as the appeal of a small, tight, cozy

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00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 1: space like a box or a coffin might be rooted

409
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 1: in some kind of conceptual abstraction, you know, pictures you're

410
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Speaker 1: putting together in your head about what would be conceptually

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Speaker 1: comforting as a as a space to occupy. I think

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Speaker 1: there could also be some raw physical biological reality to

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Speaker 1: this because in the last episode we talked about research

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Speaker 1: by Dodman and uh and Grandon about the stress relieving

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00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,439
Speaker 1: potential of flank pressure on the bodies of mammals. The

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Speaker 1: research we were looking at was from the nineteen eighties

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Speaker 1: and it specifically was focused on pigs, but it seems

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Speaker 1: there is probably a broader mammalian response to having a

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Speaker 1: gentle squeezing pressure on the side of the body that

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00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 1: triggers a sort of stress relief response within the neuroendocrine system. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think that the one most famous example of this,

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Speaker 1: and I think she we briefly mentioned her in the

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Speaker 1: last one. I think she heard she was an author

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Speaker 1: in one of the papers. You say, yeah, that's what

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Speaker 1: I was just talking about. H um was this would

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Speaker 1: of course be the hug machine invented by Temple Grandon,

427
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 1: has a therapeutic stress relieving device to resolve anxiety and

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00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 1: sensory issues. And Temple Grandon, if you're not familiar, she's

429
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: an animal behaviorist, but has also written a lot and

430
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: done stuff about the autism spectrum. She herself phys autistic. Yeah.

431
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: I think they made a movie several years back, and

432
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 1: I think Claire Danes later, if I'm not mistaken, I

433
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 1: didn't in the film. I remember being a fun film.

434
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 1: I usually don't watch a lot of biopics, but I

435
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 1: thought it was pretty good. Um so uh so so Yeah,

436
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: She invented it while attending college and was inspired by

437
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,360
Speaker 1: the by the squeeze shoots used for cattle inoculations. So

438
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: cattle walks in the walls these kind of like you know,

439
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 1: these walls move in kind of apply pressure from either side,

440
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 1: and then you're able to inject the cattle uh at

441
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: the cow within the inoculation um. And so she she

442
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: found it very useful at least for you know, long

443
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: stretch in her life. And then subsequent studies have found

444
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: that that deep pressure may have a calming effect, especially

445
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: on persons with autism, especially if those persons have high

446
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 1: anxiety levels. This is actually described in a paper that

447
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: Temple grand And published in nine in the Journal of

448
00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: Child and Adolescent Psychopharmacology. And the paper was called Calming

449
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 1: Effects of Deep Touch Pressure in Patients with Autistic disorder,

450
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 1: college students and Animals. Uh And so, just to read

451
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: from Grandon's abstract here quote many people with autistic disorder

452
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 1: have problems with oversensity to both touch and sound. The

453
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: author and autistic person developed a device that delivers deep

454
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 1: touch pressure to help her learn to tolerate touching and

455
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: to reduce anxiety and nervousness. The squeeze machine applies lateral,

456
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: inwardly directed pressure to both lateral aspects of a person's

457
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: entire body by compressing the user between two foam padded panels.

458
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,360
Speaker 1: Clinical observations and several studies suggest that deep touch pressure

459
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: is therapeutically beneficial for both children with autistic disorder and

460
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: probably children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Only minor and

461
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 1: occasional adverse effects have been noted. But then also Granded

462
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 1: notes that that there are data to show that this

463
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 1: is not only effective at calming people who have autism,

464
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 1: but also at what it's called non referred college students,

465
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: I think, just the general population, and also points to

466
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: studies I think similar to and probably including the one

467
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: we mentioned last time in animal welfare. And so that

468
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: there could be some significant clinical value to some kind

469
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: of squeeze machine that provides this this deep sort of

470
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: hug like pressure with these foam pads almost swaddling the body. Yeah. Yeah.

471
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: And to come back to what I said earlier about

472
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: like some of the sort of the erotic treatments of claustrophilia,

473
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: I think some of that. My my sort of gout

474
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: intuition here is that like some of that is ultimately

475
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: getting back to this idea, you know, like, um, the

476
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: idea that if I somehow closely can find my body

477
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: if I like you know, you know, vacuum seal myself

478
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: between two pieces of vinyl or latex or something that like,

479
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: ultimately you're getting at the comforting reality of the uh

480
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: similar to something that you might find in the Hugman

481
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: sheen as as opposed to something that's just pure titillation.

482
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: But I could be wrong on that, And of course

483
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 1: obviously it's going to vary from from person to person. Uh.

484
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: Nobody's gonna have exactly the same reaction to the sort

485
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,360
Speaker 1: of stimuli we're describing here. Well, I guess one thing

486
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: this highlights is that it's not always totally easy to

487
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: make a clear dividing line between what is erotic pleasure

488
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: and what is other types of pleasure. Yeah, now, um,

489
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: another thing that you see marketed in similar ways to

490
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: the hug machine is of course a weighted blanket UM,

491
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: which and I believe they even use these for dogs sometimes,

492
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: but but humans, especially weighted blanket UH can be comforting,

493
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: even like a nice sleeping bag. I don't know, these

494
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: sort of sarcophagus style sleeping bags. Um. I've always found

495
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: certainly the idea of him comforting. But even yeah, on

496
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: a camping trip, like being all zipped up and kind

497
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 1: of mummified in one of those can feel feel pretty nice. Um.

498
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: We'd also would be remiss if we didn't mention isolation

499
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: tanks or you know, flotation tanks in all of this,

500
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: because that is I mean, that's just close to what

501
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: John Oliver was talking about with the the dream of

502
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: being an egg as possible, Like you really do become

503
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: the goop, you become the salty goop in there. The

504
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: salty goop is you know, generally at the the same

505
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 1: temperature as your body, and you're cut off from the

506
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 1: rest of of of reality and you're you're you're left

507
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 1: with the inner reality of of you, of yourself. If

508
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: only you could take a nice tasty yolke in there

509
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: with you and then just hang out for weeks yea.

510
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the appeals of some of

511
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: the sort of stasis chamber sci fi that you get,

512
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: is that sometimes you are in a goop in there, right,

513
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: You're like, oh man, look at the coup just looks

514
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: so nice and warm and comforting, like when Neo wakes

515
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 1: up in the Matrix. I remember so that scenes supposed

516
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: to be liberating, but I remember, you know, when he's

517
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: pulling all the plugs out and he's got the goop

518
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: all over him and everything. I always remember thinking in

519
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: that scene like, oh, look, that looks like the worst

520
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: like wake up early in the morning scene. Ever, just

521
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 1: don't you want to get back in that cozy goop bed? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,

522
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: I mean it, yeah, I mean, ultimately, I guess the

523
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: character cipher Um, you know, he had it figured out.

524
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: He's like, get me back in that goop? What do

525
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: I have to do? Can you get me back in

526
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: that group today? I'll betray any friends. I don't care.

527
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: I just kind of get back in the egg. Anyway.

528
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: This subject of desiring to be squeezed into a small

529
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: space or or or in a box of some kind,

530
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: it got me thinking about a subject that I've actually

531
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: long found fascinating and thought about, especially over the last year,

532
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: and that is the subject of people who were known

533
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: as anchor rights. These were people who, in the medieval

534
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: period would willingly enclose themselves permanently inside a tiny cell,

535
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: where they would usually spend the rest of their lives confined,

536
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: devoting their days to prayer and meditation, sometimes interacting with visitors,

537
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: and passing food and waste only through small holes in

538
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: the walls. There's actually a great article fromen from the

539
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 1: British Library about the Anchoritic tradition. It's by a scholar

540
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: named Dr Mary Wellesley who's a British Library affiliate, and

541
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: it's called the Life of an anchor s. An anchores

542
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: is a term used for a female anchorite. And also,

543
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: I just want to give a shout out in general

544
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: to the British Library and their various blogs and stuff,

545
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: because they consistently put out a lot of fantastic content

546
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: that features primary source materials front and center and quotes

547
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: extensively from the primary sources. I love that they do that.

548
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: That that's a great site. But anyway, so so back

549
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: to Wellesley's article here. Uh So, the word anchorite and

550
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: the word anchors these are from the Greek anachorio, which

551
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: means to withdraw. So the cell in which an anchorite

552
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: lived was known as their anchor hold. And so if

553
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: you want to picture one of these places, you have

554
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: to imagine a sort of tiny, maybe closet sized stone

555
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: house that's attached to the outside wall of a church.

556
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: Wellesley estimates that the average anchor hold was probably no

557
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: bigger than about twelve feet square. Some of them might

558
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: have had two small rooms, but it seems most were

559
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: just one tiny cell, one little room. And again this

560
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: cell would have had no door, so an anchorite or

561
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: anchor s would have to have a support system in

562
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: order to survive, and for this reason, it seems this

563
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: was a pathway that was mostly reserved for wealthy people

564
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: who could afford to pay one or two servants to

565
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: spend basically the rest of their lives looking after them.

566
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: So they would have to have a servant to bring

567
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: them meals, to take away waste and garbage, etcetera. And

568
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: so this exchange of materials would usually happen through one

569
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: of three openings in the walls of the anchor hold.

570
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: The most common design for an anchor hold seems to

571
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: have been it would be a cell built into the

572
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: side of a church building, and it would have one

573
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: window that opens into a kind of parlor, a tiny

574
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: adjoining room where material could be passed back and forth

575
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: to the servants. So you could take away waste, you

576
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: could bring them meals. And then there would be a

577
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: second small window, known as a squint, which would open

578
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: into the church itself, and this would be so that

579
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: the anchorite or anchors could watch Mass and receive communion

580
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: from inside the church. And then there would be a

581
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: third small window that would open to the outside world,

582
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: and it was through this window that the occupant could

583
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: receive visitors. Now you might think that being walled up

584
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: permanently inside a tiny cell for the rest of your

585
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: life sounds pretty awful, and it certainly would be if

586
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: it were against your will. But it seems that the

587
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: anchoritic life was actually quite desirable to lots of people

588
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: in the late Middle Ages, at least to people who

589
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: could afford it. Wellesley notes some some figures that there

590
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: were at least a hundred known anchorites and anchoresses in

591
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: England in the twelfth century, and then two hundred more

592
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: from the thirteen to the fifteen centuries. She also notes

593
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: an interesting gender divide that women outnumbered men consistently among

594
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: the anchoritic lifestyle, and in the fourteenth and fifteenth century

595
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: there were twice as many anchoresses as there were male

596
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: anchor rights, and in the thirteenth century there were about

597
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: three times as many. And we'll come back to some

598
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: possible reasons offered for the popularity of anchoritic life and

599
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: the special popularity among women in a bit, But first

600
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: I wanted to bring up how there's another thing that's

601
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: interesting to me about the way that medieval sources talk

602
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: about anchor rights and anchor us is that they are

603
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: sometimes spoken of as if they were already dead, even

604
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: while they're alive. So I wanted to set the scene

605
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: by reading a passage from Wellesley's article quote. At the

606
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: moment of an anchoress's enclosure, a priest would recite the

607
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: Office of the Dead, which was the set of prayers

608
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: said at a person's funeral. This symbolized that the recluse

609
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: was dead to the world. In fact, it seems that

610
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: some cluses did not leave their cells even after they died.

611
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: Archaeological excavations of some anchor holds have revealed the remains

612
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: of people who presumably once lived there. In St Anne's

613
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: Church in Lewis, Sussex, the anchors is grave has been

614
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: positioned in exactly the place where she would have knelt

615
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: daily to view the mass through the squint. So you live,

616
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: you live in the anchor hold, you do mass through

617
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: this tiny slot in the wall, and then you get

618
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: buried peering through the slot. Wow, it's um this is

619
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: one that is You run into plenty of things in

620
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: the historical record that are that are challenging for the

621
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: modern for for many modern humans to to understand. But

622
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: this one, yeah, this one's This one's tough because on

623
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: one hand, it sounds like it's easier to just say, oh, well,

624
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: these were clearly zombies. There were zombies, and you cared

625
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: about them, so you just kind of locked them in

626
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: a hole next to the church and Dan and any

627
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: but you. But then you you realize, of course that's

628
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: that's that's fantasy. So you try and sort of try

629
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: to find parallels in the modern world, and like, it's

630
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: it's crazy to imagine this. Like at a at I

631
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: was like a modern Christian church that somebody could be

632
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: you know, like a wealthy church member could just say, hey,

633
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: can I just live in the wall over here and

634
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: then and then watch you know, church all the time,

635
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: and I'm just here and I'll just never leave, and

636
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: then you can just bury me in there. Like, I

637
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: guess the closest thing I can imagine is if you

638
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: had like a really big sports fan and they had

639
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: what do they call those, like the special rooms that

640
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: you watch from the sky box. Yeah, Like what if

641
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: you had your own SkyWings and it was just for you,

642
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: just large enough for you to sit and eat wings

643
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: and watch your football game. Um, but you're just like,

644
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna leave. I'm just gonna stay there all

645
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: the time. I'll watch all the football games, and when

646
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: I die, you can just steal me up in there.

647
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: I love church that much. Yeah. But of course even

648
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: that is that does not feel like an accurate description

649
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: of what's happening here. No, I think there's something So

650
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: I think there's some stuff will get to in a

651
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: minute that might help explain the psychology of this little more.

652
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: I mean also like you can't, uh though, it's kind

653
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: of hard to understand, even from a modern religious perspective.

654
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: Even if you're a religious person today, usually your religious

655
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: devotion wouldn't seem to take this form, right, you know

656
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: that this level of like a total body sacrifice to

657
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: to your religious practice. Well, like, I think a lot

658
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: of us can understand say that the desire or sort

659
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: of the the ideal of say a monastic life. You know,

660
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: I find myself and maybe this is from you know,

661
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: just being a fan of like the name of the

662
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: Rose and all where like occasionally I'll be like man

663
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: with like you know, background thought that's not really tied

664
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: to a lot of practical thinking, where it's kind of

665
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: like what if I was just a monk instead, Like

666
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: this is sort of idea and roughly in your head

667
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: that would be easier. I would just live in a

668
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: little space and I would have my duties and you know,

669
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: again it's just like this this sort of empty fantasy

670
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,479
Speaker 1: in the back of your head that doesn't actually match

671
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: up with the reality of monastic life or what you

672
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: actually want out of life. But it's kind of it's

673
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: kind of in the background there enough to where I

674
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: can I can be like, well, I understand the desire

675
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: for some of that, but but not the living inside

676
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: of a tomb. It's not a it's not a desire

677
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: you have fully formed, but you can kind of feel

678
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: pulses of it every now and then. Yeah, exactly, I

679
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: know that feeling. Um anyway, So to go on with

680
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 1: Wellesley's article here more about about the life of anchors is.

681
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: In particular, she cites at century how to guide for

682
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: people who wish to become anchors is and this is

683
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: called the and again I'm not quite sure how to

684
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: pronounce this, but is I think it is the oncrane

685
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: we uh, which is spelled a n c r e

686
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: n e uh. And then the second word is w

687
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: I s s e the oncrene wee. I'll say so

688
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: the on crene wes says, admiring their own white hands

689
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: is bad for many anchors is who keep them too beautiful,

690
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: such as those who have too little to do. They

691
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 1: should scrape up the earth every day from the grave

692
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: in which they will rot. Yeikes. Wow. So like, if

693
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: your hands are too clean, that's clear you're you're being

694
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: idle too much. So you need to supplement your prayer

695
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: and contemplation with scraping up the dirt. And and I

696
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: guess that further shows your devotion to God. But it

697
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: reflects one of the major characteristics of the life of

698
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: an anchorus, which is asceticism, the denial of worldly pleasures

699
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: in favor of the pure life of contemplating and praying

700
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 1: to God. And this was a common way of viewing

701
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: holiness in medieval Europe, that the body is corrupt and sinful,

702
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: and that the fleshly desires of the body must be

703
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: denied in favor of the pure edification of the spirit.

704
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 1: And so of course you could see this in all

705
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: kinds of ways that medieval monks might sort of punish

706
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 1: themselves or deny their own bodily desires. But the Oncrene

707
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: Wete makes it clear that you shouldn't go overboard with asceticism,

708
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: and Wells pulls a great quote here. Uh so this

709
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 1: is from the source. It says no one should gird

710
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: herself with any kind of belt except for her confessor's permission,

711
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: or wear any iron or hair or hedgehog skins, or

712
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: beat herself with these or with a lead whip, or

713
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: make herself bloody with holly or brambles. So the idea

714
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: of being denied the flash but don't punish the flesh, right,

715
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: that seems maybe if you're punishing the flesh of that much,

716
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 1: I wonder if there was a kind of a suspicion

717
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: that like you're maybe you're getting pleasure from going overboard

718
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: to that extent, like you're going too far, and perhaps

719
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: there's like a horseshoe theory of pleasure and pain here,

720
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: like you go too far into pain and you're actually

721
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: maybe getting a kick out of it. Well, it reminds

722
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: me of again that the idea of the isolation tank

723
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: in in the modern setting, Like the idea is that

724
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: you don't pay as much attention to your body, uh,

725
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: in order to contemplate other things. And I feel like

726
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: it's something similar is going on in these cells here.

727
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: But uh, but but again, yeah, if you're if the

728
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: whole idea is to focus on God and not the body,

729
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: then yeah you shouldn't. I can see the argument for

730
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 1: not finally manicuring your hands, but also not spending too

731
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: much time punishing your hands either. Now, another interesting thing

732
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: that Wellesley gets into in this article is she quotes

733
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: from a primary text from the Middle Ages, uh called

734
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: I think it's called just book, but it is by

735
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: an author named Marjorie Kemp and uh. Welsley mentions that

736
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: this is one of the earliest known, or maybe the

737
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 1: earliest known autobiographical book written in English, and Kemp visits

738
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: a famous anchoress in this book known as Julian of Norwich,

739
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 1: and the meeting is described as follows in Kemp's book quote,

740
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: Then she was charged by our Lord to go to

741
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: an anchoress in the same city, who was called Dame Julian.

742
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: And so she did, and she showed her the grace

743
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,479
Speaker 1: that God had put in her ole, and many full

744
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: speeches and conversations that Our Lord spoke to her soul,

745
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: and many wonderful revelations which she revealed to the anchoress

746
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: in order to establish if there was any deception in them,

747
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 1: For the anchoress was an expert in such things and

748
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: could give good counsel on the matter. And Wellesley notes

749
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: that this account by Kemp is interesting for several reasons.

750
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: First of all, it's a picture of female friendship written

751
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: by a woman, something that is not very common in

752
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 1: the texts that survived to us today from the Middle Ages.

753
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: But also she notes that it shows a woman in

754
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: a position of spiritual authority. She Julian of Norwich here

755
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: is being sought for religious counsel at a time when

756
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: the church itself was controlled entirely by men, and Wellesley

757
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 1: claims that the reason Julian could be sought out so

758
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 1: readily for spiritual advice even though she was not part

759
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: of the male authority structure of the church was that

760
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: she was an anchoress, and this raises an interesting tradiction.

761
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: Despite the fact that anchorses were walled up and unable

762
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: to leave their cell for the rest of their lives,

763
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: they were nevertheless very much an important part of the

764
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 1: civic and ecclesiastical community, maybe more so than they would

765
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: be if they were free to walk the streets. This

766
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: is interesting and it makes me wonder. Uh this might

767
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: be a stretch, but maybe not so much, given um

768
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: many of the things that are referenced by the author.

769
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: But in Uh Red Dragon and in the Silence of

770
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: the Lambs, we have two characters go to visit Hannibal

771
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: Lecter Uh not in a interview room, as seems to

772
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,800
Speaker 1: be typical of InCAR with incarcerated individuals, both in reality

773
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: and in other fictional treatments, but they go visit him

774
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: at his cell, at his enclosure, and he's presented. Of course,

775
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: on one hit level, this is a monster uh the

776
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: in in his layer. But on the other hand, he

777
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 1: is a wise individual who is segmented apart from society

778
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: and is sought out for their wisdom and insight. That's

779
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: really good comparison. I hadn't thought about that, but yeah,

780
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: I wonder if the anchoritic tradition was somewhat in Thomas

781
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 1: Harris's head here might have been. I mean, Harris made

782
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: allusions to a lot of to a number of historical elements,

783
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: and I think even, um, you know elements from from

784
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,919
Speaker 1: Christian history. So perhaps, well, I want to think more

785
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 1: about this role of the anchorite or the anchoress in

786
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 1: the community and their their role as a source of

787
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: spiritual authority. Uh So the guide books for anchorus is

788
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: at at the time advised them to be careful not

789
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: to spend too much time socializing through the window to

790
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: the outside world. For example. Uh this is again from

791
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 1: the Acreane Wee. It says that you shouldn't take meals

792
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: with visitors. Quote this is showing too much friendliness because

793
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: it goes against the nature of any form of religious life.

794
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: And most of all that an anchoress who is utterly

795
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: dead to the world. One has often heard of the

796
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 1: dead speaking with the living, but I have never found

797
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: yet that they ate with the living. So this is

798
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: really interesting. It's like it contains this contradiction. On one hand,

799
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: the anchorite or the anchoress. The anchorus is dead to

800
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 1: the world. She is of no value to the world.

801
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: She's basically not a living human being anymore. And yet

802
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: she is a source of spiritual authority and insight, much

803
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: in the same way that a message from beyond the grave,

804
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 1: maybe to a person who's already gone to heaven, would

805
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: be yeah, yeah, like they're almost like they're like they're

806
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: half dead, that they already have a foot in the

807
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: world beyond yeah. And so despite these warnings of like,

808
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: you know, you shouldn't eat if you're an anchorss you

809
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: shouldn't eat with visitors. That's just too friendly, it's clear

810
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,919
Speaker 1: that a good amount of interaction did take place through

811
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: that window to the outside world. And in a way,

812
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: the anchors could become a sort of hub for the communities,

813
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: both spiritually and socially. And so I want to read

814
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 1: another section from the on Creane West that is cited

815
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: by Wellesley. Quote, the anchors is called an anchor and

816
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: anchored under the church like an anchor under the side

817
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: of a ship, to hold the ship so that waves

818
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: and storms do not capsize it. Just so all Holy Church,

819
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: which is described as a ship, should anchor. On the

820
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: anchor us for her to hold it so that the

821
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,479
Speaker 1: devil's blasts, which are temptations, do not blow it over.

822
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: It's interesting. So it's the the idea that the anchoress

823
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 1: is is providing like a stabilizing element to the church

824
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: or to the local faithful, to the physical being, the

825
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: spiritual being of the church itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And

826
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: so I think given some of these considerations, maybe it

827
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 1: is less surprising how popular the anchoritic way of life was,

828
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: right that that it, despite being sort of dead to

829
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: the world, you would also in a weird way be

830
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: held up as a special source of wisdom or insight,

831
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: and you might have an important symbolic role in as

832
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: a kind of like protector of the church and the

833
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: church community and and somebody that people would seek out

834
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: for advice. And it also seems that, like according to

835
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: what Wellesley says here, that this was a way for

836
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: for women to have spiritual authority within the church that

837
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: they wouldn't be able to have because by say, entering

838
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: the clergy, which they couldn't do. Now, I was wondering

839
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: what we have in the way of anchors as describing

840
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 1: their own feelings about their lifestyle in their own words,

841
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: and there's actually very little of that. So to read

842
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: a section from Wellesley on that quote, the only text

843
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: written by an anchor is to Survive the period is

844
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 1: Julian of Norwich's Revelations. All of the other texts about

845
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 1: anchoritism were written by people advising those who had chosen

846
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 1: or wish to choose the Anchoritic way of life. In

847
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: Julian's text, she gives away very little about her experience

848
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: of being enclosed. At one point, she writes, quote, this

849
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: place is prison, this life is penance. But we cannot

850
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,439
Speaker 1: be sure whether Julian was referring to her earthly life

851
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: more broadly or the specific circumstances of her cell. Uh

852
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: And I found that passage really interesting too, because I

853
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 1: wonder if the the physical enclosure of the Anchoritic way

854
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: of life takes on a special appeal if you already

855
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: in a way view fleshly earthly life as itself a

856
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: kind of prison or enclosure. Yeah, yeah, He's sort of

857
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: like an immediate physical recreation of what you believe reality

858
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: to be. So anyway that that's all bouncing around in

859
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 1: my head about the possible psychology that would lead someone

860
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: to want to become an anchoress. But also I just

861
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 1: had to mention a couple of other details that that

862
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: I came across that I thought were really great. This

863
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: first one is another tidbit from Wellesley's article, and it's

864
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: just a story about a saint named St. Dunstan who

865
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: was an anchorite, and he was written out in a

866
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: work by an eleventh century monk named Osburne. Apparently St.

867
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: Dunstan would occupy himself with metal work, especially so he

868
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: would do like work with gold while he was secluded

869
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: in his cell. And at one point it is told

870
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 1: in this in This Life of St. Dunstan, that the

871
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: devil appeared to him and he's like, I'm the devil.

872
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get you, And Dunstan defended himself by tweaking

873
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 1: the devil's nose with a pair of hot metal tongs

874
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: that he had been using to do his metal working with.

875
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: So very good job, Dunstan. Well you know that this

876
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: um this also makes me wonder about like the getting

877
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: into sort of the isolation tank area, and also um

878
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: sensory deprivation in general, Like if you're pursuing this spiritual

879
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: life within the cell of of the anchored. You know,

880
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: perhaps it ultimately aids that because you you've you've set

881
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: yourself off from so much into reinformation, you know, you're

882
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: perhaps putting yourself in a position to have one on

883
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: ones with the devil. You know, also if you're engaging

884
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 1: in metal work in there, because I mean, hopefully he

885
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 1: wasn't using any you know, there's anything they produced a

886
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: lot of smoke or fumes or anything, because that would

887
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: surely these things were well ventilated. Surely that's a good point.

888
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 1: I didn't think about that. Well. I think it's something

889
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: we don't often think about when we are engaging in

890
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: sort of half thought out desires for enclosed spaces. We

891
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 1: don't think about the fact, oh yeah, I need I

892
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 1: need to be able to breathe in there, you know,

893
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: I want to have at least some fresh oxygen finding

894
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: me within this chamber. Yeah, or to allow the mercury

895
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: fumes to escape. One last detail just that I thought

896
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 1: was too good not to mention, because this was not

897
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: from Wellesley's article. I just came across this in the

898
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: British Libraries collection summary for the en Creane Weee and

899
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: it was a note uh describing the text and summarizing it,

900
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 1: and it's listing many of the rules that are prescribed

901
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 1: for the life of an anchorus. So to quote from

902
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: the summary here, we learned that anchoresses were prohibited from

903
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: eating meat, and that they were not allowed any accessories

904
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: or items of clothing that were decorative rather than practical. Rings, brooches,

905
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: patterned belts, and gloves were not allowed. They were also

906
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: forbidden from keeping pets except cats. Cat is all about

907
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: that box life. So yeah, tying back into the to

908
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: the original episode here, I'm not sure what the religious

909
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 1: significance of of allowing a cat into the cell is,

910
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: but I thought that was interesting, especially compared to the

911
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: sometime medieval associations between cats and witchcraft. Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely,

912
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: uh yeah, there, there's there's probably more that could be

913
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: said about that. I should also point out though Hannibal

914
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 1: Elector was not permitted to have a cat, I do

915
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 1: not remember him having cat. That would have gone poorly

916
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: than now. Certainly, living out the rest of your life

917
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: in a box that is the ultimate that. Certainly we

918
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: can't top that, but why don't I thought we might

919
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: come back to the idea of what about just living

920
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: part of your life inside of a box. What if

921
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: you only slept inside of a box. And of course, again,

922
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:29,919
Speaker 1: if we think about the fact that we do tend

923
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: to sleep in um, you know, cubicle or rectangular rooms. Yeah,

924
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: we all kind of sleep in boxes. But how come

925
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: we don't see much in the way of like actual

926
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: sleeping boxes. How come I don't actually crawl into a

927
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: box to sleep at night? Good question, I'd try it. Uh. Well,

928
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: First of all, I'd like to remind everyone that if

929
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 1: you listen to our our episode or perhaps it was

930
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 1: episodes on the invention of the bed, box like beds

931
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: actually go back quite a way as in history. Uh.

932
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 1: In fact, the some of the earliest examples of furniture

933
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: within a domestic environment as opposed to a tomb, uh,

934
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: certainly includes a box like bed. There's one from the

935
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 1: Orkney Islands off this coast of Scotland from around and

936
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 1: it's essentially a stone It's a stone bed box. It's

937
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: like this, uh you know, it's it's not unlike the

938
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: box that might be placed on the floor that your

939
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 1: cat would climb into, except this was a stone box

940
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,320
Speaker 1: that you would you know, filled them with some hides

941
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 1: and whatnot to make it comfy, but you're still sleeping

942
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: in a box. Yeah. So I think if I remember correctly,

943
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: this would be sort of like imagining a stone bathtub

944
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 1: that you would line with a soft material like straw

945
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 1: or hides or things like that, and you can get

946
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 1: in the bathtub and then and have the padding on

947
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: the bottom. Yeah, exactly, So to a certain extent that

948
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: the idea of sleeping in a box is I mean,

949
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: that's just part of human history. And while you know

950
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: a lot of our modern beds get away from a

951
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: kind of boxing environment, and they're often they're more of

952
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: an elevated situation, there are some times during which different

953
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: humans certainly slept in boxes, and box sleeping was was

954
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: the fat um because certainly Victorian curtain beds, to a

955
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: certain extent, create a box that you sleep in. And

956
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: a part of part of this reality comes down to just,

957
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: you know, the desire to have a warm place to sleep.

958
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: You you want to contain your body heat in the

959
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: same way that you and you know you would if

960
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:32,760
Speaker 1: you were just covered up with a bunch of blankets.

961
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: But what if you also just use curtains to shut

962
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 1: off the rest of the room. But then there's there's

963
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: the next step, and that is the idea of the

964
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: box bed. Uh. So these were a kind of wooden

965
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: wardrobe that you slept inside of. UM. They were often ornate, uh,

966
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 1: with an opening on one side. UM often and this

967
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: was a door. So there's like a wooden door that

968
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 1: swung open or slid open. Uh. Though there are other

969
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: versions of it. They were more like they just had

970
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: like a curtain. And then there are also versions of

971
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 1: it that were like part of the wall, that were

972
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 1: more more in line with the sort of sleeping environments

973
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 1: you might see in a you know, in a in

974
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 1: a confined you know, like ship cabin sort of situation.

975
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: So you look in the cabinet where you keep the

976
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: nice silver, and then you get jealous of the silver

977
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: and say, I want to be the nice silver. I

978
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: want to be in there while I rest. Yeah, exactly.

979
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: If you look look these up, you can find a

980
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 1: number of different examples of this. UM. One website I

981
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: was looking at this is a website called the Vintage News,

982
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: and there is an author by the name of Louise

983
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: flat Lee who wrote about them. In included a number

984
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 1: of pictures, and this author say that they probably started

985
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,760
Speaker 1: out in Brittany six years ago and subsequently spread throughout Europe.

986
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: And yeah, it was it seems to have largely been

987
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: something like the curtain bed, and that it was a

988
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 1: good way to stay warm during cold nights, and it

989
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: might have added security either real sure, your sort of

990
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: psychological security for the protection of children during the night.

991
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: You know, so you want the children to be safe, Well,

992
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,760
Speaker 1: let's have them sleep in this box. Uh, let's actually

993
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 1: have a door on the box and we can just

994
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: shut them up in there. It's interesting how the thermal

995
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: value of the box bed mirrors what we were talking

996
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: about with cats, that you know, you surround yourself with

997
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: a at least partially insulated material to trap in your

998
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 1: body heat. Yeah. Now, apparently a Scottish variant was popular

999
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 1: in the six through nineteen centuries. So if you look

1000
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: around you can find examples of the Scottish box bed.

1001
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 1: And I have to say these look quite quite comfy.

1002
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: These These are not nearly as wardrobe like as some

1003
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: of the other examples you'll find. These are more uh,

1004
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: just bed spaces set into the wall with a curtain

1005
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 1: that may be drawn, and some of them look quite stylish,

1006
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 1: quite modern. Um. And then you'll you tend to have,

1007
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: you know, more traditional cabinets underneath them, and sometimes I

1008
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: think there's like a bench that folds out. Yeah, they're

1009
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 1: kind of set into an alcove. It looks like incredibly

1010
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: cozy to me. I want to get in one right now. Yeah. Yeah,

1011
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 1: they look cool and I would love to hear from

1012
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: anyone out there who sleeps in one of these. Uh.

1013
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: I mean maybe there are some problems. I don't know. Like,

1014
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: I guess if you're sleeping two to a bed, somebody's

1015
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,439
Speaker 1: gonna be stuck up against the wall there and can't

1016
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: get out. But if that person really likes to be cozy,

1017
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: that's probably the prime place to be, right. You're all

1018
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 1: the way in the back, as long as you don't

1019
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: have to go to the bathroom during the night. But

1020
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: then also I guess you you have firm walls in place,

1021
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: so if you're too tall, uh, you know, you're just

1022
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 1: gonna be bunched up in there. I don't know. That

1023
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: is the thing is. Looking at this picture you've attached,

1024
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:42,879
Speaker 1: it looks very cozy, but it also looks relatively short. Yeah. Now,

1025
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: this style apparently largely went out of style with the

1026
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 1: advent of twentieth century heating, but they that I've also

1027
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,240
Speaker 1: read that they may be making a comeback, that Carve

1028
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: Scandinavian bed boxes seem to have made made a return

1029
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 1: in recent years. I wasn't really able to find much

1030
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 1: in the way of evidence of this. I'm not doubting it,

1031
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: but I'm I'm mostly just finding some interesting designs on

1032
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: Pinterest boards and whatnot, and you know, and antique photos.

1033
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 1: So I'd love to hear from listeners on this as

1034
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: well as you know, if you've been checking out you know,

1035
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: bed and Breakfast throughout Europe or checking out real estate,

1036
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 1: are our box beds making a comeback? Are you finding

1037
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 1: people sleeping in wardrobes? What are the Airbnb keywords for this?

1038
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: Because to on another level, it seems like you can

1039
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 1: get in trouble for sleeping in a box. Because here

1040
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 1: in the United States, there was the story of cartoonist

1041
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:41,280
Speaker 1: Peter Berkowitz who, in order to survive San Francisco's housing market,

1042
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 1: which you know has has been insane for a while,

1043
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: moved into a wooden box and a friends apartment, uh,

1044
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: paying just four hundred dollars a month. And I've seen

1045
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 1: pictures of this, This box. So it's I guess it's

1046
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,399
Speaker 1: more in line with kind of like an anchor Right's cell,

1047
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,359
Speaker 1: in that it's like this elongated wooden box. It has

1048
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: a bed in there and just you know, there's some

1049
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,720
Speaker 1: room for some space. It's like this tiny compartment, except

1050
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: instead of being attached to a church, it's in your

1051
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: friends living room. Uh and um. And so he ended

1052
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 1: up writing a piece about it for The Guardian and

1053
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:15,800
Speaker 1: getting some pressed out of it, you know, because I

1054
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 1: think a lot of it too is just like, hey, uh,

1055
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 1: San Francisco housing market is insane. Look what I'm having

1056
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: to do to deal with it. And he ended he

1057
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 1: ended up getting busted for it because the idea was

1058
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: that these pods and boxes were said to violate local

1059
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: laws and create a fire hazard. Well maybe, but but

1060
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. I'd always kind of wonder Also

1061
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: if it's just like the neighbors just don't like it. Yeah, yeah,

1062
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's hard to tell how much of

1063
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 1: that is, you know, how much of it is his neighbors,

1064
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: how much of it is politics, etcetera. Um, you know

1065
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 1: he's making a stink about um about the housing market

1066
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 1: in the city, um, etcetera. But but I don't know

1067
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 1: there there you can also see that there could be

1068
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 1: some legitimate concerns about say ventilation or you know, if

1069
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 1: you especially if you make your own uh box to

1070
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: sleep and live in. Um, you know, are are you

1071
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 1: providing enough ventilation for this? Is you know, is there

1072
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 1: is air getting in there? Um? Like I think back

1073
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 1: to when we were recording together in a studio, we

1074
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 1: were in a box within a room. But then they

1075
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: had a separate like air conditioning fan system set up

1076
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: to keep the air circulated through that little box that

1077
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,479
Speaker 1: we were in. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it word yeah,

1078
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: And sometimes there have been like five people in there

1079
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: ahead of us and it clearly was not working that hard.

1080
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the days of humidity inside the podcast studio,

1081
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 1: that was a time. Now now getting a little bit

1082
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: into this idea of box bed, but also coming back

1083
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 1: to the anchor rights. UM. I found a book by

1084
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 1: one Carrie Howie from two thousand seven titled Claustrophilia, The

1085
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: Erotics of Enclosure in Medieval Literature. And if for anyone

1086
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 1: who wants a really deep contemplative dive on this topic,

1087
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 1: I think this would probably be the the book to

1088
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 1: check out because the author points to a kind of

1089
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: duel horror fascination with confined spaces, not only during the

1090
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: Middle Ages, but also in say, modern cinema. So they

1091
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 1: specifically bring up the two thousand to David Finch Fincher

1092
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 1: film Panic Room as an example of this. I never

1093
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 1: saw that one. I was pretty goods where Jodie Foster

1094
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: plays the this woman and her and then she has

1095
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 1: a daughter, I think. And when the bandits come, led

1096
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 1: by Dwight Yoakum as the as the lead villainous bandit,

1097
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 1: and he's quite good in it. It's weird. He's kind

1098
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: of a creeper um, so he plays the role well.

1099
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: Uh so it becomes their place of of shelter but

1100
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 1: also kind of a prison. So it does get into

1101
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: this dual idea of like the panic room is being

1102
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 1: the place of safety but also the place that you're trapped. Sorry,

1103
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: I'm still not getting over Dwight Yoakum. Yeah, I mean

1104
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 1: he's good in it. I don't know that I've seen

1105
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 1: Dwight Yoakum in many dramatic roles, but he's good in

1106
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: Panic Room anyway. Carrie, how he writes the following, Indeed,

1107
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 1: not only do fear and fascination go hand in hand.

1108
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: When enclosures are at stake, fear is often alloyed with desire.

1109
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 1: Claustrophobia is at bottom, in part, a denied love of confinement.

1110
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 1: That is to say, it is always alloyed with claustrophilia.

1111
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 1: The Middle Ages had a particularly sensitive and sensory understanding

1112
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,479
Speaker 1: of this, and the devotional text discussed below will become

1113
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 1: clear that enclosure was unavoidable for High Medieval religious culture.

1114
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: It was not only secretly desired through repression, but openly courted, constructed,

1115
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 1: lived in. So I haven't read it, but I would

1116
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: imagine how his book probably touches on some of the

1117
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: themes of the anchoritic life as well. Yes, yes, I

1118
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: believe so. Now outside of the Western world and getting

1119
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 1: more into the modern world, I feel like we have

1120
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: to at least mention capsule or pod hotels in Japan.

1121
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 1: I've never stayed in one of these, but I think

1122
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: a lot of us have seen photos and photo galleries

1123
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 1: of such hells. Um maybe you've seen them pop up

1124
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 1: in a documentary. Uh, And they do fall into that

1125
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 1: category that I've mentioned earlier, where it's like it's kind

1126
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 1: of like a sci fi pod, a stasis pod, and

1127
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 1: you can't help it look at it and think, oh,

1128
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 1: on some level, that's that's a desirable place to be. Yeah, totally.

1129
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 1: So these started in the late seventies, I believe, and

1130
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 1: they're they're notable for their low price, small space, and

1131
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:26,479
Speaker 1: they're apparently ideal for business travelers as well as people

1132
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: who've say've been out on the town and they've become

1133
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 1: intoxicated and they can't return home, uh, you know across

1134
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: a you know, like you know, the Tokyo sprawl, and

1135
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 1: therefore this is like a quick place you can go

1136
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: in bed down. But but yeah, there's something undeniably attractive

1137
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 1: about them. I was looking at various photo galleries off them,

1138
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: and I'm seeing like mountainous regions as being popular. I

1139
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:49,600
Speaker 1: guess if you have you don't have a lot of

1140
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 1: real estate, and you potentially need like a high sleep

1141
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 1: density environment, it makes sense to have capsules or pods

1142
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 1: for people to sleep in. You know, I've often wondered

1143
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 1: why they don't make airplanes where you can buy a

1144
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 1: horizontal sleeping pod instead of a seat. I would have

1145
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 1: to guess that it's just the geometry doesn't work out

1146
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 1: like they can't fit as many into the plane that way,

1147
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 1: um as they can vertical seats. But I don't know

1148
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: if you work in designing airplanes, well why is that?

1149
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 1: Why are there not planes like that? I want to know. Well,

1150
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: you do see things like this, I think in in

1151
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 1: first class accommodations for certain airlines with with long flights.

1152
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 1: I've never experienced it myself, but I know they have

1153
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 1: things like that. You see occasionally see photographs of it,

1154
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 1: uh and then maybe we have listeners out there who

1155
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 1: can attest to it. But speaking of of flights, I've

1156
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 1: also seen the capsule pod model at least argued as

1157
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 1: a solution for airports uh where, especially if you have

1158
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: solo travelers who have like a long layover. You know,

1159
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 1: it may not make sense to actually leave the airport

1160
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 1: check into a hotel, But you have that long layover,

1161
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 1: and what are your choices just to sleep awkwardly you

1162
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,439
Speaker 1: in one of the chairs out there want while waiting,

1163
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: or to curl up in the corner and hope nobody

1164
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 1: messes with you. What if you could pour yourself into

1165
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 1: a nice comfy pod and just um you know, be

1166
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 1: the goog for six hours? Oh totally I would be

1167
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:16,919
Speaker 1: the goo. I I have slept on an airport floor.

1168
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 1: I didn't like it. Yeah, yeah, it's not particularly desirable.

1169
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 1: Um Oh. I should also mention there's there, at least

1170
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 1: there is or was a capsule hotel in Pinghang, China,

1171
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 1: the ping Haang Space Capsule Hotel, and this one is

1172
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 1: also run by robots. So it's very sci fi based

1173
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 1: on the photographs I've seen where you have these, um

1174
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 1: these capsule like environments that you sleep in, but also

1175
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: their zones where robots are bringing around. I think they're

1176
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 1: bringing around drinks. So, uh, smell the set up of

1177
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 1: a sci fi horror movie and nice bottle budget. Uh

1178
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 1: looks good. Yeah, capsule budget even Yeah. I guess one

1179
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 1: more thing we should discuss here. And there's there's not

1180
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: a lot of hard information and about this because these

1181
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 1: are mostly just designs. I don't think anyone actually has

1182
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 1: one of these. But at least back as far as

1183
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:13,680
Speaker 1: various videos and animations depicting earthquake proof beds were making

1184
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 1: the round, do you remember these, Joe, maybe vaguely. They were,

1185
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 1: they were popular. You saw like Gizmodo articles about it. Uh,

1186
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,080
Speaker 1: and so I saw an article on the Verge about it,

1187
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: and you you even saw like Stephen Colbert and various

1188
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 1: like late late night talk show hosts covering it because

1189
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 1: it's just so weirdly comforting but also horrific to look at.

1190
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: Um I want to quote James Vincent's right up from

1191
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 1: the verge he that he nicely summarizes, quote earthquakes humanity's

1192
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: oldest foe, right up there with snakes, fire, and other

1193
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 1: humans when it comes to things that will definitely probably

1194
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 1: kill you someday, which is why you need one of

1195
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 1: these terrifying earthquake proof beds. In the event of a quake,

1196
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 1: You're conspicuously massive four poster will simply swallow you up whole,

1197
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 1: letting you get back to sleeping while the world itself

1198
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 1: shatters around you. Oh man, I love that, especially because

1199
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 1: it's like blatantly false that earthquakes or one of humanity's

1200
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 1: oldest foe is. Like, an earthquake is really not very

1201
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 1: dangerous at all until you are in a built city

1202
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 1: right right prior to the construction of of of cities

1203
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 1: and larger buildings. That's where the true danger in the scenario. Um. Now,

1204
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 1: this is the one that that Vincent is specifically referring

1205
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 1: to here, I think is one that had a really

1206
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 1: neat um need animation to guide it, where you had

1207
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 1: essentially a bed that has a trap door in it.

1208
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: So earthquake occurs, sets off the sensor, that bed does

1209
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 1: a trap door effect, and you and whoever is sleeping

1210
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 1: on the bed just fall into like a pit and

1211
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 1: then it seals up behind you. And supposedly there's like

1212
01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 1: water and supplies in there, and and imply remember ever

1213
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 1: wake up that you're just like you just wake up

1214
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 1: the next morning. Oh, I guess there was an earthquake

1215
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:06,760
Speaker 1: in the night, because now I'm in the comfortable darkness

1216
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:09,200
Speaker 1: of my bed's belly. Now I'm an anchor right for

1217
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 1: the next seventeen days or until we run out of water. Yeah. Now,

1218
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 1: there have been various versions of this, I think some

1219
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 1: of them are are have been kind of attributed to

1220
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:22,600
Speaker 1: the to the same inventor. There's a Chinese inventor by

1221
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: the name of Wing wind z Uh called the metro

1222
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 1: farm bed that in its earlier stages just seems like

1223
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 1: a bed with high protective arms that doesn't look that

1224
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 1: weird at all. It looks actually kind of nice. Um.

1225
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: But then there are versions of of of their design

1226
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 1: that also involved moving doors, wings, etcetera. I've seen some

1227
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 1: variations of the of a so called earthquake proof bed

1228
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 1: that essentially looks like like sleeping on top of a

1229
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 1: box and then that box swallows you to protect you.

1230
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:57,240
Speaker 1: I've also seen some where the bed itself doesn't drop you,

1231
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 1: but like big metal finger has come out from under

1232
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:04,480
Speaker 1: the bed and cover you to protect you from earthquake debris.

1233
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:07,920
Speaker 1: I'm surprised that so many of these have these moving parts.

1234
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:09,760
Speaker 1: It would seem to me, I mean, I'm no expert,

1235
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 1: but I would guess the best kind of earthquake proofing

1236
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 1: you could have on a bed would just be to

1237
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 1: give the bed a reinforced roof. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't

1238
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 1: seem like you need the added complexity and potential danger

1239
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:25,720
Speaker 1: of having doors that close and catch limbs that you know,

1240
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 1: the or or the requirements that you would need to

1241
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: maintain a particular sleeping uh posture in order to avoid

1242
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 1: being decapitated by your bad that sort of thing. Uh.

1243
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 1: But I want to be fair, Maybe maybe there's stuff

1244
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:40,040
Speaker 1: I'm not getting about this. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, ultimately,

1245
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 1: these are concepts you know, um clearly inventors are still

1246
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 1: feeling out the possibilities because again I come back to

1247
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 1: my my own um inner world. And on one level, yes,

1248
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:53,560
Speaker 1: this looks terrifying. It looks reminiscent of the scene where

1249
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 1: Freddie Krueger reaches up through the bed and pull somebody

1250
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: down into the bead. Know that that was that was,

1251
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:04,240
Speaker 1: wasn't it? And then the bed just like vomits eighty

1252
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 1: three thousand gallons of blood onto the ceiling. Yeah, for

1253
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 1: like fifteen minutes it felt like um. So on one level, yes,

1254
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 1: it feels like that. But on the other level, it's like,

1255
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: what if my bed could hug me? What if my

1256
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:20,799
Speaker 1: bed could could become my egg? And in that idea,

1257
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:24,200
Speaker 1: especially in the wake of a potential threat like an earthquake,

1258
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 1: it does sound kind of nice. All right, well, we're

1259
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and close it out here. We're gonna

1260
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: go ahead and press the panic button on our our

1261
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:37,160
Speaker 1: our swallowing bed and uh and steal ourselves off for

1262
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 1: this episode. But we'd love to hear from everyone out there.

1263
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:43,720
Speaker 1: What are your feelings and thoughts on enclosed spaces for

1264
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 1: sleeping or living or otherwise. Have you stayed in a

1265
01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 1: Japanese uh pod hotel or some of these examples and

1266
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 1: say it'll lear Switzerland. Report back. What was it like?

1267
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:54,640
Speaker 1: Was it great? Was it not so great? Was it

1268
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 1: a mix of the two. Did you feel comfortable? Did

1269
01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:58,960
Speaker 1: you feel like the goop? We'd love to know all

1270
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:03,759
Speaker 1: about that. Um. You know these various beds, box beds.

1271
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:05,679
Speaker 1: Have you slept in one? Are they making a comeback?

1272
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:08,559
Speaker 1: All of its fair game? Are you an anchor? Right?

1273
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:10,560
Speaker 1: If so, let us know. If so, what are you

1274
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:12,600
Speaker 1: doing listening to podcasts? I feel like that should not

1275
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 1: be allowed unless you were a podcast anchor, right where

1276
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 1: your sole responsibility is to listen to as many podcasts

1277
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 1: as possible with your podcat who's also there, um, in

1278
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:27,560
Speaker 1: order to attain spiritual enlightenment. Oh also, I want to

1279
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,320
Speaker 1: hear about people's experiments with their cats. I don't know

1280
01:09:30,400 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 1: if we mentioned this at the end of the last episode.

1281
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 1: Maybe we did, but but yeah, yeah, yeah, if you

1282
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:36,400
Speaker 1: if you've put out a square to see if your

1283
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:38,120
Speaker 1: cattle sit on it, that kind of thing, yeah, I

1284
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:40,080
Speaker 1: feel free to write us about it. Yeah. I think

1285
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:42,760
Speaker 1: there's already some action on that. We either received a

1286
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 1: listener mail or somebody shared it on the discussion module,

1287
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 1: which is the Facebook page where people who dig the show, uh,

1288
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:53,680
Speaker 1: you know, hang out and share links and whatnot. I

1289
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 1: think so far we got one yea in one day

1290
01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 1: on Facebook, one person saying yeah, put down the tape

1291
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 1: square cat got right in, another person saying the cat

1292
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:05,720
Speaker 1: doesn't even go anywhere near it. Yeah. I keep it coming.

1293
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 1: We need more data in the meantime, and if you

1294
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:09,920
Speaker 1: would like to check out other episodes of Stuff to

1295
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:11,800
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind, you'll find us wherever you get your

1296
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:13,800
Speaker 1: podcasts and wherever that happens to be. We just asked

1297
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:16,840
Speaker 1: the rate review and subscribe huge thanks as always to

1298
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would

1299
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:21,680
Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on

1300
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for

1301
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:26,360
Speaker 1: the future, just to say hello, you can email us

1302
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 1: at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1303
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio.

1304
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, use the I

1305
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:44,720
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to

1306
01:10:44,760 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 1: your favorite shows us to hand a time say about

1307
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:02,439
Speaker 1: about