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Speaker 1: This is straight Fire with Jason McIntyre. What is up,

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Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen. It's me Jason McIntyre, straight Fire for Thursday,

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Speaker 1: June and I don't know if yesterday was the craziest

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Speaker 1: day of the NBA season, but it certainly was near

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Speaker 1: the top. Forget about all the news, like so much

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Speaker 1: news happened earlier Wednesday. We're gonna get to a little

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Speaker 1: bit of it later with our interview with this interesting

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Speaker 1: guy named Jake Fisher, who wrote a book about tanking

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Speaker 1: in the NBA. It's great stuff, a lot of interesting nuggets.

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Speaker 1: You'll love the Kobe Lakers stuff or maybe you'll hate

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Speaker 1: it um if you're a Lakers fan. But I don't

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Speaker 1: think we could do any of the news because we

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Speaker 1: saw two phenomenal games last night. And it's funny because

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Speaker 1: if you listen to yesterday's pod, Rob and I were

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Speaker 1: so geeked off Kevin Durant. We're like, oh, yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: two games on Wednesday, and they might be okay, they're

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Speaker 1: both team are large favorites. And then of course you

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Speaker 1: wake up Wednesday and it's like, holy cow, Kawai is

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Speaker 1: maybe out for the playoffs, and Chris Paul's and covid

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Speaker 1: what the hell is going on? And then all these

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Speaker 1: NBA news happens. So we get to the games, and

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Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, your boy's been hot on gambling. And

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Speaker 1: I loved both favorites last night. I loved the Sixers

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Speaker 1: at home and I love the Jazz at home. And

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Speaker 1: I love the Jazz despite you know, being big favorites.

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Speaker 1: I think with seven seven and a half, Kauai was

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Speaker 1: out and I didn't feel comfortable on the prop pets.

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Speaker 1: But I've been hitting props this week, and the prop

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Speaker 1: beets I went three and oh one Joel and beat

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Speaker 1: over Seth curry Three's over Paul George points over. They

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Speaker 1: were easy winners. Both of the sides lost, And I

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Speaker 1: don't even know if there's enough time on this podcast

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Speaker 1: to get into the choke job that the Philadelphia seventies

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Speaker 1: Sixers put forth in losing to the Atlanta Hawks. You

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Speaker 1: really have to go deep into the annals of NBA

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Speaker 1: history to find a team playing at home that leads

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Speaker 1: by twenty six points and loses. I ended up playing

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Speaker 1: soccer last night. Um, yeah, it's the summer's soccer. I know,

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Speaker 1: Euros COPA America Jason boont a soccer team. Um, you

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Speaker 1: know the Gold Cup is later this summer, I played

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Speaker 1: soccer and you know, I show up and you know this, dude,

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Speaker 1: I know. First thing was, oh my gosh, what the

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Speaker 1: hell happened to the seventies sis? And I am looking

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Speaker 1: at my phone just still be fuddled. It's what happened.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if I like Kevin Durant put

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Speaker 1: up an amazing night on Tuesday. I don't know, Rob

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Speaker 1: if I've ever heard a crazier stat than this. In

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Speaker 1: the second half, the seventy sixers only got baskets from

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Speaker 1: two guys, Joel Embiid and Seth Curry. That's it. I

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Speaker 1: put this on my Instagram story and within like fifteen minutes,

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Speaker 1: I had like twelve comments from people. You guys love

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Speaker 1: to send the d m s and sent away. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: I reply, other times, you know, I can't. UM. I'm stunned.

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Speaker 1: The entire second half you get two baskets from players

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Speaker 1: and nothing from anyone else. Folks. I think Ben Simmons

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Speaker 1: is getting shipped out of town this offseason. I mean

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Speaker 1: they were hacking Ben Simmons. In the second quarter. He

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Speaker 1: shot four or fourteen on free throws. That being said,

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Speaker 1: I still think Tobias Harris laid as big of an

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Speaker 1: egg as I've seen for a Is he a Max guy?

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Speaker 1: Robert just a close to Max. He's close to Max.

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Speaker 1: He was two for eleven, He had four fouls, four

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Speaker 1: points and missed all three of his threes. Seth Curry

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Speaker 1: was incredible. Joel Embid was awesome in the first half.

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Speaker 1: Second half, he wasn't his dominant and it was just

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Speaker 1: the choke job of all choke jobs. And and listen,

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Speaker 1: I've destroyed Doc Rivers. I crushed him a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks ago when I said, hey, I'm telling you guys

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Speaker 1: right now, Brad Stevens has had as impressive a run

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Speaker 1: as Doc Rivers, even though Doc Rivers has a title,

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Speaker 1: and all these people, oh you're racist, and all this

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Speaker 1: dumb ship people just idiotic. Okay, no coach in NBA

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Speaker 1: history has blown three three to one leads except for

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Speaker 1: Doc Rivers. And he led by twenty six at home

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Speaker 1: last night and took an l and now the seventies

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Speaker 1: sixers down three to have to go to the Highlight

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Speaker 1: Factory where Friday night it's gonna be jumping off. T

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Speaker 1: Pain is probably singing the national anthem. You're every rapper

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Speaker 1: in the A. T L is gonna be courtside. It

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Speaker 1: is gonna be a crazy scene. And I'm telling you

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Speaker 1: right now, if the Hawks could survive Game five, they

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Speaker 1: benched their starting backward Bogdanovitch and Herder were so bad

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Speaker 1: they were benched in the fourth quarter. The box road

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Speaker 1: with I'm not even making this up. Quite possibly the

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Speaker 1: worst defensive backcourt in the history of Philadelphia seventy sixers basketball,

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Speaker 1: Trey Young and Lou Williams. They would have trouble guarding me.

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Speaker 1: I'm not even lying. And they somehow came back in one.

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Speaker 1: Doc rivers Is seventy Sixers were outscored forty to nineteen

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Speaker 1: in the fourth quarter. Rob, I've never seen anything like it.

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting there, slack jawed with the kids, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm like the covers in hand, and all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden they cut it to like ten. I'm like, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, what the what the hell is going on?

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Speaker 1: Just don't screw this up. Then it's like six. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, are they gonna cover that? It's fouling

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Speaker 1: Trey Young up to while he's shooting a three and

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Speaker 1: the lead has gone And at that point I said,

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Speaker 1: well I need overtime for the cover and then they

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Speaker 1: just lost the game. Joel embiad clanging two free throws.

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Speaker 1: Em bead was perfect from the line and then break

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Speaker 1: two free throws in the final two minutes. Folks like

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Speaker 1: I know, we shredded the Bucks. How on earth can

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Speaker 1: the Bucks recover for this? After they lost the nets?

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Speaker 1: The Bucks get to go home tonight. Okay, once in

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Speaker 1: a lifetime performance from Kevin Durant. The Hawks get to

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Speaker 1: go home tonight to close out the series. And the

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Speaker 1: Atlanta Hawks left for dead when they fired the coach

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Speaker 1: Lloyd Pierce back in what January February are one win

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Speaker 1: away from the conference finals and the way things are

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Speaker 1: going with nets dropping like flies and nobody trusting Budenholzer.

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Speaker 1: Are the Atlanta Hawks live rob g to go to

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Speaker 1: the NBA Finals? Do not lie to me? Are the

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Speaker 1: Hawks live to go to the NBA Finals? They have

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Speaker 1: to be. They have to be, and it's incredible that

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Speaker 1: they are. But they have the vastly superior coach, they

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Speaker 1: have the better, more reviable supporting cast, and quite frankly,

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Speaker 1: they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot over

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Speaker 1: and over. I gotta fund staff for you that you're

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Speaker 1: gonna appreciate how many teams in the last quarter century

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Speaker 1: have blown eight team point leads. Are more in back

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Speaker 1: to black playoff games. I'm gonna just go with zero

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Speaker 1: one Doc Rivers, Philadelphia seventy six. It's unbelievable. And like,

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Speaker 1: I know that you and I have been on this

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Speaker 1: train for years now, probably as long as I've known you,

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Speaker 1: but we really hammered it home in the bubble that

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Speaker 1: Doc Rivers was the most overrated coach in the NBA,

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Speaker 1: maybe even NBA history. It's fitting that you went from

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Speaker 1: that game last night, which had to delay the start

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Speaker 1: of Clippers Jazz because of how late it went, seeing

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Speaker 1: Doc Rivers his team mounted down again and him refusing

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Speaker 1: to do anything different to try to stem the tide

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Speaker 1: because he built up this playing a certain way, and

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Speaker 1: he said, you know, I was gonna keep doing that

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Speaker 1: even though we've we've given it all back. Um, we're

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Speaker 1: just gonna keep doing what we do and you know

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Speaker 1: they'll take care of itself. News flash, it didn't too

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Speaker 1: tylu with the Clippers, and I know that you've been

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Speaker 1: very hard on Tyler hashtag former Laker Tyler for a while.

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Speaker 1: But just seeing a Clippers team make adjustments game to game,

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Speaker 1: half to half, quarter to quarter, sing a Clippers team

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Speaker 1: late in the game when it's getting a little bit

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Speaker 1: tight and guys on each team are taking bad shots, saying,

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Speaker 1: you know what, we're gonna run a play. It might

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Speaker 1: not work, but we're gonna run a play with some

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Speaker 1: action and some screening and some bin down and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna get a look that's better than what we've been

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Speaker 1: getting now. Granted the guy mad missed the shot, but

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Speaker 1: at least they were doing something. Yes, And I know

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Speaker 1: that it sucks, you know, for me as a Laker

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Speaker 1: fan to see the Clippers succeeding that the way that

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Speaker 1: they have been the last couple of games. But it

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Speaker 1: to see Doc Rivers get embarrassed even more makes me

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Speaker 1: feel a little bit better. It's weird, I uh. One

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Speaker 1: of my favorite cartoons growing up, Me and my brother

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Speaker 1: would love to watch Scooby Doo. Scooby Doo just a

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Speaker 1: great cartoon, timeless. My kids didn't love it as much

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Speaker 1: as I did, but my brother and I always loved

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Speaker 1: at the end of the episode. You know, when the

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Speaker 1: gang solves the mystery, they would rip off the mask

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Speaker 1: of the bad guy to reveal who was behind the

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Speaker 1: sinister plot. And this happened often, and I joked that

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Speaker 1: at the end of the Sixers collapse, they would take

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Speaker 1: a mask off Doc Rivers and would reveal Mike Budenholzer

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Speaker 1: was coaching was coaching the Sixers, because that's all I

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Speaker 1: kept telling, like, what are they doing well? Quirk mos

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Speaker 1: is the guy coming off a pin down? Really? Is

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Speaker 1: that what we're doing with two minutes left in a

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Speaker 1: game where we choked on everything away? I mean, Tobias

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Speaker 1: Harris fade away jumpers Will I'm stunning Rob I don't

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Speaker 1: even know it weird because these NBA Playoffs we were

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Speaker 1: headed downhill. Stars are getting injured left and right, and

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Speaker 1: now you've got like back to back Kevin Durant historic

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Speaker 1: and then the collapse and listen, I I got we

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Speaker 1: gotta give Paul Paul George's flowers. I gotta give you

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Speaker 1: man his dude playoff pe. They joked that it was

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Speaker 1: palmetto p um. The Paul George, Joe George. The Paul

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Speaker 1: George jokes have been flying try to say that one

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Speaker 1: fast and Paul George's big time thirty seven, sixteen and five.

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Speaker 1: Now he only played forty minutes. He didn't go forty

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Speaker 1: eight like Kadie. Now I'm kidding, Um, Paul George was great.

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Speaker 1: Now he did get help from the Morris Twin. We

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Speaker 1: we've got to start giving the Morris Twins. Due my

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Speaker 1: buddy Dan, who listens to this every day, texted me

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Speaker 1: the Lakers got the wrong Morris Twin. And ain't that

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Speaker 1: the truth? I mean, goodness, gracious Marcus last two games

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Speaker 1: forty nine points and he's eight of ten on threes.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if Markieth scored forty nine points all

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Speaker 1: season for the Lakers. Um, he is big. Reggie Jackson,

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Speaker 1: I mean, can we give Reggie Jackson credit for slowing

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Speaker 1: down Donovan Mitchell. And it's funny because you know, Donovan

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Speaker 1: Mitchell has been incredible in these playoffs, no doubt I

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Speaker 1: have maintained I give the slight edge to Devin Booker.

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Speaker 1: And here we are, Game five, No Kauai Leonard bo

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Speaker 1: Donovitch goes bananas in the first quarter. He has six

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Speaker 1: threes in the first quarter, and Donovan Mitchell goes six

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Speaker 1: for nineteen and he's settling for a ton of threes

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Speaker 1: four or fourteen from deep. His worst game of the

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Speaker 1: series twenty one points. I mean, listen, they've given up

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Speaker 1: on the bench. Quinn Snyder um Niang played a few

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Speaker 1: minutes Favors as usual, was in the lineup. Then they

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Speaker 1: hemorrhage points and they pull him off the court. Jordan

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Speaker 1: Clarkson got some buckets. But this is a Utah team

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Speaker 1: that just folded in the second half at home. Third quarter,

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Speaker 1: they come out of the locker room. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what ty Lou said, and they outscored the Jazz tht eighteen.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say this about ty U because everybody's gonna

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Speaker 1: ball wash. Tyler ohways so great. He makes so many adjustments.

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Speaker 1: So he started Terrence Man. It's funny because I had

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Speaker 1: tweeted after the first two games that we need to

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Speaker 1: see a lot of Terrence Man. In game three game

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Speaker 1: when he played eight minutes game to one minute Game three,

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Speaker 1: Oh look, here's a lot of Terrence Man. He's active

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Speaker 1: defensively fifteen minutes seven points, Game four, fifteen minutes, Game five,

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Speaker 1: starting twenty six minutes thirteen points, and he flushed on

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Speaker 1: the stifled tower, dunked all up in Rudy Gobert's grill,

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Speaker 1: flexed on him. Everybody on the bench is tapping their heads.

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Speaker 1: It's funny. Um. So my son, you know, he watches

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Speaker 1: some of these games with me. So does my daughter,

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Speaker 1: but she's rooting for the Clippers. That's a story for

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Speaker 1: another day. And when guys dunk on people, my son

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Speaker 1: taps his head and I'm just like, that's great. That

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Speaker 1: was like not a thing that existed when I was

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Speaker 1: a kid. Just picked the hat on a dunk just

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Speaker 1: was not a thing. Anyways. Um, I just gotta say

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Speaker 1: these NBA Playoffs, I was worried about them when the

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Speaker 1: Lakers got out ousted, and they have delivered, Folks. They

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Speaker 1: have been incredible these last two nights. And I can

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Speaker 1: be I'm irrationally confident to the point that I'm Jordan

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Speaker 1: Clarkson like, but Rob, I confess, if you told me

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Speaker 1: any of these eight remaining teams would win the title?

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Speaker 1: Are there are there eight left? Her? Six? No? There

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Speaker 1: are seven, seven, seven right, one series over. If you

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Speaker 1: told me any of the seven would win the title,

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Speaker 1: I think you could make a decent case that that

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Speaker 1: could happen? Can you talk come back and win the title? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're down two to the Clippers, but is out right?

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Speaker 1: Could the Clippers win the title? I mean they all

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Speaker 1: they got is one more from Utah Chris Paul's and

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Speaker 1: COVID protocols, which I mean, that's another story that could

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Speaker 1: be the biggest story of the playoffs. Now, the Chris

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Speaker 1: Paul thing, I'm not going to go deep into it

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Speaker 1: because we don't know a too many many people. Chris

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Speaker 1: Paul got the vaccine but did test positive for COVID.

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Speaker 1: That means he either has to wait ten days until

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Speaker 1: he's symptoms free, or maybe he doesn't have symptoms or

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Speaker 1: has two negative tests. Does that mean by Monday he's ready? Maybe?

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Speaker 1: Does that mean it could be ten days? Maybe? I

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Speaker 1: don't know what the NBA is gonna do. And if

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Speaker 1: the Clippers win Game six Friday and Chris Paul doesn't

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Speaker 1: have those negative tests and he misses the first two games,

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Speaker 1: well yeah, the Clippers certainly can win that series. Um

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Speaker 1: And then in the East, yeah, the Hawks are one

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Speaker 1: win away from the conference finals. The Nets. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what's going on with Harden, Sammy. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what's going on with Kyrie the Box. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: probably trust them the least and I think they're gonna

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Speaker 1: win that series. The seventies Sixers she many Christmas. Ah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. My first reaction is booked if you

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Speaker 1: fire stand Van Gundy after nine months? How does Doc

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Speaker 1: Rivers survive this collapse? And can you bring back Ben Simmons.

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Speaker 1: But that being said, Joel Embiid might be the best

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Speaker 1: player left in the East not named Kevin Durant, and

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Speaker 1: other than the Danny Green injury, the seventy sixers are

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Speaker 1: super healthy. I mean, assuming him beats fine. He did

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Speaker 1: at thirty seven points. But Rob, you could literally make

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Speaker 1: a case that all seven teams left can win the title,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think that's ever been the case because

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Speaker 1: of the injury craziness that we're seeing. Yeah, I would agree.

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Speaker 1: I would also tell you that I could make a

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Speaker 1: legitimate case that all seven teams do are fraudulent for

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Speaker 1: all the for all the reasons that you just said,

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Speaker 1: each one has a severe hole that you could poke

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Speaker 1: into as to why they wouldn't win. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: might be the first time that I can remember in

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Speaker 1: a long time where I legitimately have no chance, had

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Speaker 1: no idea who's going to win the NBA Championship. You know,

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Speaker 1: like even last everyone was saying, well, the bubble, it's

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Speaker 1: it's being weird, you're getting weird performances. T J. Warrens

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Speaker 1: everything forty seven points. And but you know, if you

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Speaker 1: watched enough basketball, you're like, hey, if everybody's healthy, I

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Speaker 1: think that these are probably the two, two or three

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Speaker 1: best teams because nobody is healthy. Everybody has a keep

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Speaker 1: contributor that's dealing with some kind of ailment or COVID

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Speaker 1: in the case of Chris Paul. It's like, how can

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Speaker 1: you count on anybody? You can't. And then even the

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Speaker 1: teams that I think have been the most impressive, which

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Speaker 1: would be discounting Phoenix, but recently the Clippers and UM

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Speaker 1: and Atlanta, do you really trust either of those teams?

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Speaker 1: I mean, Atlanta has never been there and the Clippers

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Speaker 1: history and know they've been playing great. The last three

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Speaker 1: games has been won a failure. So I I as

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Speaker 1: as easily you can make a case that each of

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Speaker 1: these teams could win. I could give you probably an

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Speaker 1: even better case why they wouldn't win it. It's just

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Speaker 1: why so the Clippers against Dallas go down O two,

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Speaker 1: then win four or five. The Clippers this time around

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Speaker 1: went down two and one three straight. I don't you

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Speaker 1: don't know who's showing up which Clipper team night in

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Speaker 1: and night out. Frankly, Paul George was great. Let's give

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Speaker 1: him his props. If he does that and back to

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Speaker 1: back games, I'll be a true believer. But this could

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Speaker 1: have been a flukey one off. Um. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't even know where to go with the Hawks because

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Speaker 1: they did not play well at all. They were outplayed

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Speaker 1: for three quarters handily and then had a historic comeback.

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Speaker 1: Remember in the opener they were the better team for

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Speaker 1: three quarters and then got totally outplayed but survived the fourth.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know. I mean, you know what really

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Speaker 1: irks me, and I shouldn't really say this is that,

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Speaker 1: man if Anthony Davis did not get hurt, the Lakers

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Speaker 1: would be definitely favorites to win the time. I mean,

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Speaker 1: without this, woun't needn be around, and the Sons probably

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Speaker 1: looked like the best team, don't they, Assuming Chris Paul's

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Speaker 1: okay with the COVID stuff. Yeah, I mean in terms

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Speaker 1: of what we've actually seen on the floor. They've been

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Speaker 1: the most complete team the entire playoffs. Yeah. Um, just

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Speaker 1: a quick reminder. We'll get to our guests in a

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Speaker 1: couple of minutes and I will be hosting the Dan

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Speaker 1: Patrick Show Friday morning. Should be fun. Doug Gottlieb and

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Speaker 1: I we like to argue, so you know that should

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Speaker 1: be a good time. Um, all right, Rob, final parting

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Speaker 1: shot on the seventies sixers. Where is Ben Simmons suiting

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Speaker 1: up next season? Because the series isn't over, but we

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Speaker 1: have to trade him out of town. I really think

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Speaker 1: that if you go to the Washington Wizards and say, yo,

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Speaker 1: give us a be all will give you Simmons. Now

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Speaker 1: they have Simmons and Westbrook, two guys who can't shoot.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, if I can get my hands on

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Speaker 1: Ben Simmons, I try something radical and put him at

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Speaker 1: the five, make him a point center, which has never

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Speaker 1: been done, and try to roll that out and put

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Speaker 1: him in like the Draymond Green role, but as the

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Speaker 1: point guard. Say man up and guard centers and see

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Speaker 1: what happens. Um. I mean, I it's unlikely that he

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Speaker 1: stays so close like in the division with Washington or

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Speaker 1: the Knicks. But I mean, if I'm the Knicks, I'm

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Speaker 1: selling everybody I can high to get my hands on

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Speaker 1: Ben Simmons. I mean defensively with Thibodeau. I really think

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Speaker 1: you can build around Ben and and yes, the free

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Speaker 1: throws are an issue. I mean, you know, he again,

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Speaker 1: second game in a row. I believe they had to

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Speaker 1: pull him off the court late because they didn't want

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Speaker 1: him to get foul. Rob I've never seen that before.

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Speaker 1: We're in the second quarter. You're doing hack a shack

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Speaker 1: like they were hacking Ben Simmons in the backcourt in

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Speaker 1: the second quarter and they were down like nineteen at

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Speaker 1: the time. I've never have you ever seen that. I've

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Speaker 1: only seen it one other time was with the original

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Speaker 1: hacka shack with shack It was in the second quarter. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was something that m Papovich used to do to

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Speaker 1: close halves, you know, to break any momentum if the

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Speaker 1: Lakers add to slow it down close the games. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: but I would agree with you though, Um, what do

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Speaker 1: you think Luca done was thinking? Watching Seth Curry hit

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Speaker 1: seven threes and scored thirty six points. He's thinking, there's

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Speaker 1: a good reason why I had Donnie Nelson fired. Um,

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Speaker 1: all right, Rob, I'm I'm afraid to make a pick

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Speaker 1: in this Bucks Nets game tonight. I am going to

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Speaker 1: ride with the Bucks. Umt me see if I can

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Speaker 1: get a line on the game. I was woefully off

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Speaker 1: with the pay your mortgage pick um, I trust me.

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Speaker 1: I was getting texts about it from relatives. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: you said, Care's no way Kevin Duran wins. Jay, Well,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know Harden was playing forty six minutes and going,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of ten um Milwaukee five and a half.

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the Bucks. Who are you on Bucks or Nets? Gosh, man,

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Speaker 1: this is tough. I don't trust the Bucks at all,

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Speaker 1: but the chances of Kevin Durant being able to be

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Speaker 1: Kevin Durant to that level again, give me the Bucks.

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Speaker 1: Give me the Bucks. Yeah, okay, that's a loss for

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Speaker 1: me because Rod is always all right. Let's get to

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Speaker 1: our h Let's get to our guest. Now. His name

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Speaker 1: is Jake Fisher. You're gonna love this. Jake Fisher, author

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Speaker 1: of a book that I highly highly recommend you get.

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Speaker 1: It's called Built to Lose. How the NBA's tanking era

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Speaker 1: changed the league forever. Jason likes to think he knows

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Speaker 1: everything when it comes to sports. I know what sports

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Speaker 1: dans want, but for everything he doesn't. He knows a

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Speaker 1: guy who does. Let's just say I know a guy

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Speaker 1: who knows a guy who knows another guy. All right,

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Speaker 1: let's welcome into straight fire a guy who's covered the

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Speaker 1: NBA for a long time. He recently wrote a book

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Speaker 1: that is uh has a great title, and it's got

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Speaker 1: some awesome nuggets in it. Built to lose how the

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Speaker 1: NBA's tanking era changed the league forever. Let's welcome in

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Speaker 1: Jake Fisher. Jake, how you doing, man, man, Thank you

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Speaker 1: for having me for that nice introduction. Yeah, hey, listen. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, the book has a certain h wow, this

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Speaker 1: is interesting angle to it. It's not your you know,

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Speaker 1: usual book about Lebron uh NBA stuff about superstars. It's

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Speaker 1: really um about tanking, a topic that I absolutely love.

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Speaker 1: I'm pro tanking. I haven't read the book yet, but

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Speaker 1: I it sounds like you might be pro tanking. Smart man.

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Speaker 1: All right, we'll get to the book in a minute.

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Speaker 1: But you know, we got lucky and we had you

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Speaker 1: on on a day where you know, there was some

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Speaker 1: decent NBA stories. Uh and um, you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: as we record this on Wednesday, the league is being

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Speaker 1: flipped upside down. And if you zoom out, Jake and

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Speaker 1: look at the big picture, a lot of teams that

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Speaker 1: drafted high got a superstar are now bending over backward

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Speaker 1: to keep that guy. Um. The Dallas Mavericks fired their

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Speaker 1: GM on Wednesday. We all know, the Atlanta Hawks fired

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Speaker 1: their coach mid season, who is having some beef with

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Speaker 1: Tray Young. And of course, the New Orleans Pelicans just

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Speaker 1: fired their coach on Wednesday, saying Van Gundy Stephon Gunny

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Speaker 1: was there for nine months. Um, Jake, you know you

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Speaker 1: have studied the draft a lot, You've done a lot

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Speaker 1: of reporting for your book on it. These bad teams

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Speaker 1: get the superstar, and when does the clock start ticking

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Speaker 1: and how quickly do you have to make your team

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Speaker 1: a contender before really risk losing the guy. Well, in

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Speaker 1: this player empowerment era, we've started to at least hear

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Speaker 1: the rumblings behind the scenes of the like, oh, maybe

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Speaker 1: Zion would just take the qualifying offer and he'll get out.

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Speaker 1: We heard that back with Ben Simmons. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that will ever actually happen. I think you know it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's a pretty good way to turn herself into

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Speaker 1: a villain if you will, to just bail on your team.

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Speaker 1: And I think at a certain point players have the

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Speaker 1: car blaunch to do so James Harden with Houston, I mean,

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Speaker 1: people don't really care. We made a big uproar rout

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00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: at back in October and January, but like now he's

424
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: a darling with the nets in the postseason. You know,

425
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,400
Speaker 1: he's back with Katie. It's such a great story. So

426
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: I think the clock does start taking taking with the

427
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: pressure of oh yeah, maybe he could sign this Q

428
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: oh you know, but that seven year thing is is

429
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: starting to go. And even in Minnesota right now, you

430
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: can't really four around Timberwolves people because they know Karnthony

431
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: Towns his contract is up then too. So I think

432
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: it's that seven year window typically is like the most um,

433
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: I guess pressing timeline of God, we got in the

434
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: eldest before this guy can test the open market, I'll

435
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: get to the seven year window, which I think is

436
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: kind of crazy. You know, Jake, you and I got

437
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,239
Speaker 1: out of college. We could go anywhere we wanted, you know,

438
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: and it was shift through many job offers a year later,

439
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: if somebody came to you with a better offer, even

440
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: from a rival, for more money and more precedes, you're jumping.

441
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: But these guys are committed to seven years because of

442
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: you know whatever. But anyway, you said the word villain,

443
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: and you know, Jake Lebron had the decision, became the villain,

444
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: went to the heroes. It feels like that's when the

445
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: tides turned on Lebron and then Kevin Durant leaving. Okay,

446
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: see everybody loved Durant. Then he goes to the Warriors

447
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 1: and he's a villain, and and look at how it's

448
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 1: helped these guys globally. They are massive stars at the

449
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 1: top of the sport because they became villains. Obviously they're good.

450
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: But I actually wonder, like, wouldn't Zion becoming a villain

451
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: be a good thing for his career? Like where that

452
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: Black Cat own? It be like, you know what, I'm

453
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: out of here. I don't care. Anthony Davis became a

454
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: villain for like ditching New Orleans. It was ugly. They

455
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 1: were booing him. You want to title the next year

456
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: he's in commercials, He's in space Jim Like, who cares? Well?

457
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 1: I think the people who care, and the people are

458
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: the players who can't sustain that, Like Trey Young and

459
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 1: what he's doing right now, it's so damn impressive because

460
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: he doesn't give us Yes we are, drop all the

461
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: f bombs you wanted, the garden and bowing and he's

462
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: got his lines lined up for the press conference and

463
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: after words he's saying he's waving at him be like

464
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: he's he's built for that, not every single play point,

465
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 1: built to play in that pressure and built to want to,

466
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 1: you know, talk shipped back to the opposing team and

467
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: I am the villain, give me your hate. A lot

468
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: of people want to be loved, and I think that

469
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: plays a big calculus and a lot of players and

470
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: coaches and executive decisions too, like they want to do

471
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 1: things that are going to be received well by fans.

472
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: I mean, we forget you. You have a big portion

473
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: of your book on Kobe Bryant's Lakers contract. That was

474
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: a total disaster. I know that sacrilegious to say about

475
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 1: Kobe R I p Um, but it was horrific for

476
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,959
Speaker 1: the Lakers. They basically had the worst five or six

477
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: year run in the history of the franchise after paying

478
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: him for services rendered. I want to. I mean, this

479
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 1: is a Kobe Bryant who at one point demanded a trade. Um,

480
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: and way back when he was drafted, he forced his

481
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 1: way to the Lakers because his agent said he would

482
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: rather go to Italy than play for the New Jersey Nets. Um,

483
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: can you just talk about like the draft and Kobe

484
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: and just the risk these franchises run when they bend

485
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: over backwards for stars. Yeah. I mean the agents have

486
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: a huge, huge, behind the scenes role in trying to

487
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: steer their clients to a certain situation, and you know,

488
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 1: especially in the draft, primarily in the draft, and they

489
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: can do that by multiple reasons, for multiple avenues to

490
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: do that. They can withhold medical information, they can just

491
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: decline visiting. I mean, I have it in the book

492
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: that the Jazz were really high on Devin Booker and

493
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: he just refused to work out for them. And you know,

494
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 1: the Jazz can't really necessarily take him out of fear,

495
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: like for this conversation we're talking about, you know, will

496
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: he test the open market and want to leave us

497
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: if it doesn't want to be here one day? So

498
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: you spend it out to the biggest levels of Kobe,

499
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: you know, the Lakers were steadfast, and I believe year

500
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: after year after year, but they were just going to

501
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: keep being able to find some other all star to

502
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 1: pair with Kobe, and they would be able to contend

503
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: for championships up until Kobe decided to hang it up.

504
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: And that's what they did with Dwight Howard and Steve

505
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: Natch that summer. You know, the famous s I this

506
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: is gonna be fun. Cover that. It's an infamy now

507
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: even after that, when when Kobe signed that that disastrous contract,

508
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: which I have Lakers people telling me in the book

509
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: that they believe in a large percentage of the basketball

510
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 1: operation at that time, really believed that Kobe would have

511
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: taken less money, but that they didn't even really negotiate it.

512
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: The Lakers had pretty much just gaven the offer and

513
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: they took it and walked out. That's how it was

514
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: described to me. So from there, I mean, there was

515
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: definite calculus from the Lakers that they wanted to keep

516
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: portraying two stars that if you come here, this is

517
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: how we're gonna treat you. Look at how we're like

518
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: just honoring Kobe, like you know, claim mos are A

519
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: staff are called it the Golden parachute contract that you

520
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: give an outgoing CEO, and that's out of what they

521
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: wanted to portray cars. It just so happened that Lebron

522
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: was only coming there in team if they had max

523
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: cap space, and it was only gonna go there for

524
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: another star could come with him. Carmelo was down. From

525
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: the reporting I have, Carmelo would have taken a discount.

526
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: But by signing Kobe early that November, the way the

527
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: cap works, they prevented the Lakers prevented themselves from having

528
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: too max cap spots that they then could have signed

529
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: Kobe to go over to the Luxury Attacks afterwards. But

530
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: they shot themselves in the foot and didn't give themselves

531
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: even the chance to sign both those guys. Yeah, it's weird.

532
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: The Lakers then proceeded to be awful and they get

533
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: all these high draft picks and what do they do

534
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: with them? They package them for Anthony Davis and that

535
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: did work out. But you you mentioned Devin Booker, Uh

536
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: didn't want to work out for the Jazz. Dan Jake,

537
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: I just had to look this up. Draft. The Jazz

538
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: were drafting twelfth. Trey Lyles was the pick. Booker went

539
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: the next pick to Phoenix. Holy hell, that's crazy now.

540
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: I mean if that had if it had gone down

541
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: where Booker goes to the Utah Jazz, then Donovan Mitchell

542
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: ends up somewhere else, right a couple of years later

543
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: because you're not drafting the same position, really, but that

544
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: that's pretty wild. Um, I do want to ask about

545
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: the draft, you know, the agent's wielding power. If memory

546
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: serves um, the Philadelphia is seventy sixers. I think it

547
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: was badly wanted Porzingis and he refused to work out

548
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: and give them the medical and of course Ben Simmons,

549
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: the Sixers had the number one pick, and I'm pretty

550
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: sure Ben Simmons was like, I'm not I'm trying to

551
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: force a trade. I don't want to go to Philly.

552
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: And then at the last minute he capitulated. Um, you

553
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: think this is good or bad for the NBA, that

554
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: these stars have this power and the agents can do this.

555
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: I definitely think there's a lot of more negative aspects

556
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: than positives. And for one thing, I think at the

557
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: end of the day, the corny cliche is that these

558
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: teams are civic trusts, right, and you're doing this for

559
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: the fan base and to bring the chick through the city.

560
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: If you're looking at it through that lens, it's bad

561
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: because it prevents executives from doing their job to their

562
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: fullest capability. If agents are are literally intentionally doing things

563
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: to make it more difficult for a team to land

564
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: the player they want, it's back for that team over

565
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: that fan base. But if you look at it from

566
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: the business perspective, where this is just a business and

567
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: every actor, whether you're a GM or a coach or

568
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: an agent or a player, is acting in their own

569
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: self interest hoping that it ultimately aligns with other coaches

570
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: and players and agents at the same time they can

571
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: win a title, then I don't find any fault in

572
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: the agents kind of maximizing the rules as they can,

573
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: just like you know, executives tanking is maximizing the rules

574
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,959
Speaker 1: as they can too. Like when when a team decides

575
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: to be bad and save their cap space to make

576
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: trades and take on bigger salaries to take back different

577
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: draft picks, they're celebrated, right, that's like the opposite of

578
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: what agents are doing. Pretty much, the teams are saying,

579
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: we're not even gonna sign your player, sorry, but you know,

580
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: maybe next time. When when I now to come work

581
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: out for me, and I want your player, you know, now,

582
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: I'm willing to help you out. So everyone's kind of

583
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: on both sides of the line. I feel like in

584
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: this business. Yeah, it's weird though. The Houston rock I'm

585
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: looking now, the Houston Rockets have the most cap space

586
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: for next year. Um, that's probably by design. You know.

587
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,239
Speaker 1: We had Brian in horsed on way back and he

588
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: was talking about the owner for Tata um lost a

589
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: ton of money during COVID because of their restaurant business. Um,

590
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: they have a lot of caspases Like Jake, Who's who's

591
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: going to Houston? They have nothing, you know, they have

592
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: an unproven coach, a GM that nobody really trusts. Uh,

593
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: nobody's going here. They can have all the cap room

594
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: they want. Like I look at the Pelicans and David Griffin,

595
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: who gets a pass from the media because he worked

596
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: at ESPN, Like you know this Jake, Like everybody loves

597
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: David Griffin. Oh, he'll return a call quickly from any

598
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: NBA person, and everybody treats him with kid gloves, like

599
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: he's gonna go to sleep all summer with a bunch

600
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: of draft picks for the future. What does that matter?

601
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: Like is he getting this team better now? And you know,

602
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: I know you said, you know Zion probably won't leave Jake,

603
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: I don't know. This is setting up to me like

604
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: Zion is gonna have a real decision to make. Are

605
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: the are the Pelicans? I'll start here. Are the Pelicans

606
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: better now going forward than they were when they drafted Zion?

607
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: The roster construction? I would agree, So what is Griffin? Do?

608
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: I know? Listen, I keep checking my email here and

609
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: that'll car my eye because I have a story coming

610
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: out on Bleacher Report in the next hour. So I

611
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: bet kind of holding Griff's feed to the fire. I

612
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: agree with you, and you know, I think there's a

613
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: reason why the media paid him favorably. I think, you know,

614
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: there's a lot of I the more I've worked in

615
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: this business, the more I've realized that this job is

616
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: not on the other side of it, and in the business,

617
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: the job is not just basketball. It's a it's a

618
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: pr job, your relations job. There's a lot involved, and

619
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: certain executives are are way better at playing all aspects

620
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: of the game. If you will, you catch my drift.

621
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: So um, I do think that you know, moving on,

622
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: from Standon Gundey from the reporting I've done last a

623
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: couple of months, even like it sounds like this move

624
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: was done to play gate the players in Zion, in particular,

625
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: being that Stands style never fit. And I also do

626
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: think that the moves that Griff made bringing on Steven

627
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: Adams and signing him to that big um, you know,

628
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: it seems to be diametric to the success that they

629
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: were having under Alvin Gentry when there was playing that

630
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: smaller unit and running up down the court and they

631
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: were kind of in playoff contention. But you know, it

632
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: seems like it seems like they're You're right, the clock

633
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: is definitely starting to take on that situation top to bottom,

634
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: and you do start to wonder again, like how long

635
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: can it go? I agree with you, yeah, Um, you know,

636
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: we know that in certain segments of business that the

637
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: contrarian mindset can return bigger returns than if you just

638
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: follow the crowd. Right, So the Nicks went with Tom Thibodeaux,

639
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: Well what are they doing hiring a defensive guy in

640
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: like a crazy offensive era. It worked, you know, they

641
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: got to the playoffs. Um, Steve Kerr, people question, what

642
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: the hell do they do? Steve Kerr was announcing games.

643
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: He's taken over from Mark Jackson. You get a fresh

644
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: set of eyes. Boom, they make the jump to lightspeed

645
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: and Golden State is is a dynasty. Um. Do you

646
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: see any moves coming up that could be of the

647
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 1: contrarian mindset? For example, Boston moves on from Brad Stevens,

648
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: he goes upstair, very interesting higher setting up for the Celtics. UM,

649
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: Portland Trailblazers. Do you know we know that Damian Lillard

650
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 1: has already stumped for Jason Kidd. Uh. We saw Jason

651
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: Kidd basically in Milwaukee doing a good job, doing a

652
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: good job. Fired. They bringing Budenholder. They win sixty games,

653
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 1: but he's now being exposed in the postseason. Do you

654
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: have any names that are kind of contrarian in the

655
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: coaching side? UM? Contrarians hard because you know, I I

656
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: think one big theme in the league right now is

657
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: trying to find someone that can immediately bring yourself into

658
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: deeper postseason contention number one. Across all these jobs Indiana, Portland's, Boston,

659
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: the Pelicans, the Wizards, like all those openings, there's there's

660
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: a pressure on the front office making that selection. With

661
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: Boston less. So, I mean, Brad, I think a big

662
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: reason why he's in the front office and not just

663
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 1: part of ways, is because he's got this big five

664
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: year deal and ownership does like him a lot still

665
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: and he just kind of I think the clock has

666
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: expired from all all accounts as him as the head

667
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: coach of that team. Um so, and you know, all

668
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: the pieces of that front office, the Mike Zarins and

669
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: the Austin Angels, like they've they've kept a small group

670
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: so they don't have as much pressure, but they do

671
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 1: need to maximize Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown, like all

672
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: these teams, all these front office is making these decisions,

673
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: the data Griffin's, Kevin Pritchard's like, they need to nail

674
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,439
Speaker 1: this higher too. So I'm not so sure we're gonna

675
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: see that many out of the box hires like Chauncey Billups. Yes,

676
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: it would be a first time head coach, and I

677
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: think Charles Leam Milwaukee, an assistant coach there, has a

678
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 1: really good shot at making it. In New Orleans. It

679
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: was communicated to me he was like a pretty serious

680
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: contender last year. But honestly, like the Becky Hammond, you know,

681
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: reports that come out, Like I think a lot of

682
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: these teams are are are building these bigger coaching searches

683
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: to kind of win the news cycle, like we've been

684
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 1: brought about earlier. It's funny you say win the news cycle.

685
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: It's like when a tray happens. Now you better get

686
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: a lot of draft picks and pick swaps, and you're

687
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: automatically winning. Like it doesn't matter who you pick in

688
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,280
Speaker 1: two or three years. As long as you got draft

689
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: picks ones obviously and pick swaps, you're a winner. And

690
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 1: that's just such a bad way to great things. One

691
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: more question before we get to the book. I I

692
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 1: gotta ask about the Sacramento Kings. Um the washing. You

693
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 1: mentioned the Wizards and I totally miss this, but Scott

694
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,959
Speaker 1: Brooks today that kind of falls through the cracks. Uh.

695
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: Sorry Scott Brooks on Wednesday, Um was not gonna return

696
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 1: with the Whiz Now he's a Russell Westbrook guy. Okay, Um,

697
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: I wonder and you can feel free to disagree here.

698
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 1: If they're worried about Bradley Beale, who did not commit

699
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: to the team and the future after that sixer series,

700
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 1: if they're worried about be a lout leaving because remember

701
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: Brooks and Westbrook were typed from Okay, see they go back,

702
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: but like, who cares about Westbrook? You know you don't

703
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: want to lose Bradley Beale, who was an All NBA guy. Um,

704
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: but do you think that they then is just smart

705
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 1: for them, the Wizards, to go to brad to be

706
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: and say, hey, Bradley, do you have any insight on

707
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: who we should get as a coach because we know

708
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: Billy Donovan, his guy from college, is with the Chicago Bulls.

709
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: M yeah, I mean what were what you were just

710
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: talking about before? I think leads into this answer about

711
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: how this is now a narrative driven lead in business,

712
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: and the way the narrative is running really does impact

713
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: actual personnel decisions. And I think with the Wizards, I

714
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: mean Bradley Beal being able to say to not commit,

715
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: it's a it's a he knows that's a headline. He

716
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: knows people like you and I are going to talk

717
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: about it. And then people listening to this they're gonna

718
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 1: talk about with their friends, and that word's gonna keep

719
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: getting swirled and head back up back to the media

720
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: and back to ownership. Right. So that's A. That's a tool.

721
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 1: I think maybe I'm maybe I'm reading it too cynically,

722
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: but I think that's to be able to hold management's

723
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: feet to the fire. Because everything I've heard from all

724
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: accounts is that he has no intention of leaving. But

725
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,439
Speaker 1: maybe the clock does take maybe maybe not this year,

726
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 1: but maybe by the deadline. You know, So you leave

727
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: that room for for that gray area available to kind

728
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: of put your you know, foot in the door and

729
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: get get to see at the table and say, like,

730
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,439
Speaker 1: you know, I got some things we gotta get done here,

731
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: you know, A make the playoffs and be keep me happy.

732
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in

733
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox sports

734
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,439
Speaker 1: Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app

735
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: search f s R to listen live. In your book,

736
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: Built to Lose, How the NBA's tanking era changed the

737
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 1: league forever? Um, you have details on the Sacramento Kings

738
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 1: and DeMarcus Cousins. I'll say this, Jake, my one experience,

739
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: I'm not I don't try to break news, but you know,

740
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 1: you hear stuff and put it out there and people

741
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,839
Speaker 1: get angry. Um. And the one thing I had heard

742
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: was the George Carl DeMarcus Cousins beef was really ugly

743
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,879
Speaker 1: and Lady Divac was super clumsy with throughout the entire thing. Um,

744
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: tell tell us about how ugly it was with DeMarcus Cousins,

745
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: because there was a moment in time where DeMarcus Cousins

746
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: was considered like, wow, is he the next great big man?

747
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: He could shoot threes, He's a top fifteen play in

748
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: the league. I think he might have been all NBA once. Um,

749
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: but tell us about de Marcus Cousins and the Kings. Yeah, So,

750
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the big selling pitch for the

751
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: book is that I did over three interviews for this thing,

752
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: and that's that's kind of my calling Karma reporter. I

753
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: find out new information and the book is loaded with

754
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: new stories like this where Cousins he he was the

755
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: guy that the team did kind of tank four number

756
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: five pick in two thousand ten, Um, and do everything

757
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: you can, like we've been talking about, to try to

758
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,919
Speaker 1: build a system and and a whole culture around that guy.

759
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: And the first coach he really did kind of connect

760
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 1: with with Michael Malone. Well, Michael Malon was hired before

761
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: the back Randa dv hired Pete Alessandro, so again narrative

762
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: driven leave. That starts the rumors already about will Michael

763
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: Malone be able to make it, will Pete want to

764
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 1: hire his own guy. You flash forward to that summer

765
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: after that whole for first a year together, there's rumors

766
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: already about George Carl being the replacement for Michael Malone,

767
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: and the King's coaching staff is out to lunch and

768
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 1: the baggat Strip during summer league. As they're walking out

769
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: of this restaurant, who comes into the very same restaurant

770
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 1: out of all the thousands of restaurants on the strip.

771
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 1: But Theveck and George Carl flash forward to the December,

772
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: that first opportunity where Boogie gets injured that viral manningitis.

773
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,240
Speaker 1: They fall to mat in eate. They acts Michael Malone.

774
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: By February, George Carl is in there, so he speed

775
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: up a couple of months. You know, a de Marcus

776
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: Cousin has already felt like you know, the wold got

777
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: pulled over his eyes and he got back stab that

778
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: the one coach he finally liked, they immediately fired him.

779
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: And this whole notion that George was angling to get

780
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: the job anyway. And the NBA, as much as it's competitive,

781
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 1: it's a fraternity. And if you're seeing someone who's gonna

782
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 1: backstab someone in your own trade, not a great look.

783
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 1: That that spring from what I was told the veck

784
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: and the front office now is Vlada running things, not

785
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: Pete Dallasander because they also brought him into play and

786
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: pushed Pete out. There was a there was a notion

787
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: that they needed to get fifty win team. So George Carl,

788
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: who was obviously the coach of the Nuggets, when the

789
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: Nuggets traded Carmel and got that poopoo platter back from

790
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: the next it was good enough team to make the

791
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 1: three seed. Carl in that meeting suggested, you know, maybe

792
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: we could trade DeMarcus and get better pieces back. So

793
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: that gets back to DeMarcus and Carl wants to trade me,

794
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: and that's the whole Snake in the Grass tweet, you know,

795
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: and George Carl's calling Mitch cup Chuck and saying, oh,

796
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: the Lakers be interested in him. When the Lakers had

797
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: a numer two pick that became of the' angelo. So

798
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 1: that all builds up to there's a scene in the

799
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: book and it happened in real life. They're back in

800
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: Las Vegas. George Carl, Vlade and DeMarcus Cousins are literally

801
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: at a high school cafeteria table while the younger team

802
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: is practicing in the gym, and they're hashing it out,

803
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: drinking iced tea from the soda fountain, you know, trying

804
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: to clear the air about de Marcus. Wasn't George didn't

805
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: say I want to trade him. It was just an

806
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 1: idea he brought up as a potential thing, and you know,

807
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: he never bought into it anyway. You had to blow

808
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 1: up in San Antonio and the blow up in Cleveland,

809
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 1: you know, threatening to you know, take George Carl into

810
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 1: the back room and like all that type of stuff.

811
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: And I mean, I don't have that confirmed, but that's

812
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: pretty much. I didn't write that, but that's pretty much

813
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: what the word was. And um, you know, it just

814
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,240
Speaker 1: never got to the sense where George can really control

815
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: that team ever again. And even after they've pushed out

816
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: Michael Malone for him, he only lasted like sixteen months

817
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: in that seat too. So that's the stuff that for

818
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: franchises from after getting back to contending. Wow, you know

819
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: it sounds not quite the exact same as Lloyd Pierce

820
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: first Trey Young in Atlanta, but there were rumblings of

821
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: those two not getting along. They bump off Pierce and

822
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: everybody gets healthy and all of a sudden, Nate McMillan

823
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: looks like a genius. Um, but um, let's wrap up

824
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 1: on this. I'm curious where you are on the sixers

825
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 1: and the process. I've listened to a lot of smart

826
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: Sam Hanky podcast. That guy is really intelligent. I'm a

827
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: big in and what him and Darryl Morey did in

828
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: Philadelphia I thought was kind of genius. But at the

829
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 1: same time, they haven't they haven't been to the conference

830
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: finals yet. They obviously they haven't made the NBA finals.

831
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: They butchered the Jimmy Butler thing. Like I think that

832
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: goes to show just how difficult it is to build

833
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: a team. Um, and they seem to do all the

834
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 1: right things building up right, I mean ner LNS Noel

835
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: and hindsight was it didn't work. But otherwise, like everything's

836
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,919
Speaker 1: kind of work. Why hasn't it uh been successful? And

837
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 1: you or do you consider it successful? Yeah? I think

838
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 1: everything you just hit on is, you know, no matter

839
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: where you're starting from whether you're the Celtics moving on

840
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: from KG and Paul Pierce, or your Philly is starting

841
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: off more from the middle of moving through holiday. You know,

842
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: whenever you do decide to build a team there, it's

843
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: very hard, and there's a lot of luck and unforeseen

844
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: variables that are out of your control that ultimately you

845
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: have to mitigate. So that's why I think tanking is

846
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: a strategy that teams like to take. It's that you know,

847
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: if you give yourself chances to draft and draft and draft,

848
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: you can miss on Newlands and m c W and

849
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: julil Okaf and get Joel and Beat and Ben Simmons

850
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,879
Speaker 1: and still emerge as a playoff team. And the next

851
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 1: step from there is obviously to contend, which is even

852
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 1: harder to do. It's even harder to term team twenty

853
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 1: win team into a forty win team than it is

854
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: to turn a forty win team into a sixty win team,

855
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: because everyone wants the players that are gonna be on

856
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: a sixty win team, right, So it's more competitive to

857
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: get those guys. And I think the goal of tanking

858
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: is two stocker covered so much that you have enough

859
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: guys already and they'll be able to trade them for

860
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 1: you know, upgrades, or you'll be able to attract free

861
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: agents who want to join them in the following off seasons.

862
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: And if you build this bigger, you know, slower build

863
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: eventually the goal is to keep yourself in the championship

864
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: conversation or the possibility of competing for the title every

865
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: single year. Do it for a decade, and maybe you'll

866
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: break through once or twice. And that's the thing though,

867
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 1: I love what you said, Jake, but while you're doing

868
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: that constantly tinkering, you may end up putting your second

869
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: or third best player on the table, right because you

870
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: can't just say, oh, we got two stars were good, Like,

871
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't work like that. You know, they had Russell

872
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: Westbrook at Paul George, Paul George gets a better offer

873
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: from Kauai like and so on. I mean, I guess

874
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 1: on some level I understand what George Carl did, But

875
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: how do you thread that needle? Like that's almost impossible,

876
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: is it not? I agree what George Carl wanted to do,

877
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: in my opinion, probably very shortsighted, especially because you know,

878
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: I think the goal of Hanky and other analytical mounted

879
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 1: executives who executed the strategy is to build up enough

880
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: capital to make this thing be something that actually has

881
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 1: a shot, and you know, maybe you will get lucky

882
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 1: and when other people don't. I mean the Sixers, if

883
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: Kawhi Leonard doesn't have that crazy bouncing three, you know,

884
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: maybe they win the title. And we've already considered the

885
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 1: same thing with Chris Paul's hamstring or you know, go

886
00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 1: down the line. I mean even this year. How many

887
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: juries are we lamenting right now Kuai, Jamal, Murray James

888
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: or whatever. So you know, the goal I think is

889
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,720
Speaker 1: just to just to give yourself the most like fighting

890
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: chance you got and just hope that the things that

891
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: are out of your control ultimately bounced your way. And

892
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: if that doesn't work out, sure then yeah, like people

893
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: lose their jobs and the owners get mad, and if

894
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: you don't get the results, like it doesn't matter how

895
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: good your process was. But I do think the process

896
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: overall to take a team that was perennially the seven

897
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: or eight seed, now that the one seed, they've been

898
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: involved in this thing for a couple of years now,

899
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: I think it was a success success. Uh you know, Jacob,

900
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: I love the forward thinking on your part. The league

901
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: hates tanking so much that they have now changed the

902
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: lottery rules. Uh, you know, they add these playing teams.

903
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: I mean, two thirds of the league is technically in

904
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: the playoffs like this also helps coaches keep their jobs. Well, hey,

905
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: we were in the play in you know, I mean

906
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: it didn't really help Scott Brooks or staying well Stavon

907
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: Gutty missed. But um, I am really cute. Do you

908
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: think these new tanking rules are beneficial to the league?

909
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 1: For instance, Houston had the worst record. However, Houston, Detroit,

910
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: and Orlando all have the same odds for the number

911
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: one pick and to stay in the top four. So

912
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: clearly with Houston, Orlando, Detroit, okay, see the lower odds

913
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: haven't dissuaded those teams at all, being they were all

914
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: sending players home for half the year. That's never something

915
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: Thinky did and think he was the brazen tanker, right,

916
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: He never was sending guys away or putting them on

917
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: the bench like they were playing their veteranstad Young for example,

918
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: all through that thirteen fourteen season. So clearly tanking is

919
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: alive and well, especially class that's considered to be the

920
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 1: best class four team, which we talked primarily in the book,

921
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 1: considered a five player class. So you know, even if

922
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: only the four keepers trans chance at one, you got

923
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: higher odds of two, higher odds of three, and higher

924
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: odds of four, and the Rockets having the worst record,

925
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: they're guaranteed the top five pick. So when a five

926
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: player draft, maybe the Rockets might actually kind of get

927
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: lucky at five where they don't have the pressure now

928
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: to take a guy where he could bust, and the

929
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: person behind you is really the All Star like Joel

930
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: and Be, and you don't lose your job because you

931
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: know the right person fell to you with five. You know,

932
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,879
Speaker 1: that's the kind of stuff that you know, I think,

933
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: I think teams are willing to take that you know,

934
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: will be the worst team still because we still have

935
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: that safety at five or seven. It's weird. You know,

936
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: Houston had the worst record. They were laughing stock, you know,

937
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: the Kevin Porter stuff, blah blah blah. But let's give

938
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 1: them credit, Jake Um. You know, they were able to

939
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 1: swing a deal for Chris Paul right that worked. They

940
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,919
Speaker 1: had they had the Warrior, the loaded Warriors practically beat

941
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: down three two, And then when you know, the Chris

942
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: Paul Harden thing broke up, they went and swung for

943
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 1: the fences with Westbrook. I mean I I applaud that

944
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 1: they're trying. I mean, Detroit. You could even argue, like,

945
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: what the hell are they doing trading for Blake Griffin? Well,

946
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: they tried. They're not gonna be able to get a

947
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 1: major free agent star. What's wrong with making a play

948
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: for Blake Griffin? They did get to the playoffs with him,

949
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: he falls off a cliff with injuries like Orlando. Um,

950
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm boldly showing. I know, it's just crazy.

951
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: Like they were in the playoffs they had an injury

952
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: to Isaac. They said, you know, what, to hell with

953
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: Gordon Fournier, We're just gonna tank, you know. And I

954
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,959
Speaker 1: I if you look at the Orlando nucleus, I mean, Jake,

955
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: they could probably turn it around kind of quick with

956
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: the right pick. Here, can they not? Yeah? They get

957
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,800
Speaker 1: Kay cunning him and he fits well in the perimeter

958
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: with their bullishow more call folks, And if Jonathan Isaac

959
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: can stay healthy, like they're viewing him as you know,

960
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: potential All NBA defender, Like yeah, for sure, why couldn't

961
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: they get back into the playing conversation next year. Um,

962
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: but I mean, like everything you just said, sometimes it's

963
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: not that easy, right, Like yeah, her fingers. And that's

964
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: why I think the book even exists, Like I wanted

965
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: to compare and contrast all these different teams that we're

966
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: doing at the same time, because obviously they all ended

967
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: up in various different positions and for certain details that

968
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: you know are in the book, and you know, I

969
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: wanted to tell those stories that send teams, you know,

970
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,439
Speaker 1: either it to the top or back into all over again,

971
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 1: like Orlando is. It's funny. I have a lot of

972
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 1: relatives in Orlando, and I saw them recently and they

973
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: were like, how could you guys never talk about the

974
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: Orlando Magic. I was like, God, I mean, have you

975
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 1: looked at their team? But that being said, Jake, I'm

976
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: gonna ask you, Um, when you look at Orlando's history,

977
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: they get Shack he leaves, they get Dwight Howard fizzles,

978
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 1: they get Penny Hardaway fizzles, like some of these NBA teams.

979
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: Just the reality is you can get a star, you

980
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 1: can build around them, you can reach the finals, and

981
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: they're still leaving anyway, right, there's like always gonna be

982
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 1: a greener pasture? Is it? Not? Like I don't know

983
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: how the NBA if they can do anything about that,

984
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 1: or maybe they don't have to. I don't think they

985
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 1: have to because I think they kind of sneakily do

986
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 1: want those players going to the bigger markets, right, I

987
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: mean very famously said that he was really upset that

988
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: that Portland and uh Seattle won that lottery of seven

989
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 1: with grand Odin. Right, So you're right, it's an issue

990
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: for the small market teams. And that's why we saw

991
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: Sam Presty so adamant back in fourteen and seventeen two

992
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 1: fighting against a lot of reform, being that like this

993
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: is the best method for to even get these guys,

994
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 1: because you know, we're the deck. The deck is stacked

995
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: so far against us already as it is, like we're

996
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: not the Lakers, where you know, they can be the

997
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: worst managed team for five years and still get Lebron

998
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: and then they trade for Anton Davison win the title.

999
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 1: How those teams don't have the margin forever? Yeah, all right?

1000
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: He he is Jake Fisher, good stuff, built to lose.

1001
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 1: How the NBA is taking ever change the league forever? Jake,

1002
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 1: congrats on the book and uh, I look forward to

1003
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 1: uh talking to you next season when everybody's tanking again

1004
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: for I don't know, Lebron, James, Kid or something. Thanks

1005
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: a lot, Man. Sounds good, man. I appreciate it.