1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 2: name is Robert. 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 2: Now many times on Stuff to Blow Your Mind when 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 2: discussing religion and the ancient Greco Roman world, we have 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 2: referred to the mystery cults, also known as the sacred mysteries, 8 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 2: or even the mysteries. Watching my Stories, we've discussed specific 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: mystery cults and a little more depth. But I was 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 2: recently thinking about this and I realized that this was 11 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 2: a topic that deserved deeper consideration, and indeed, I think 12 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 2: more than once I've personally kind of left it at 13 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: and this deity was also taken up by the mystery cults, 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: as if to delve deeper is impossible or somehow forbidden. Now, 15 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: certainly mysteries surrounding the various mystery cults remain and much 16 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: is left open to interpretation, but we do know quite 17 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 2: a lot. Whole books have been written on the topic, 18 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: and we're going to follow along in these episodes to 19 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: see what we can learn and share about the mysteries. 20 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 3: Well, Rob, I am excited to go on a journey 21 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 3: exploring the mystery cults of the Greco Roman world. But 22 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 3: I kind of like the way that you used to 23 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 3: leave it off, you know, just you know, in this 24 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 3: deity yes became a focus of the mystery cults and 25 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 3: saying no more, because that is a tradition going all 26 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 3: the way back to the ancient world itself. One of 27 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 3: the main sources we're going to be using in this 28 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 3: series is a great book called Mystery Cults in the 29 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 3: Ancient World that just got a new edition out. I 30 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 3: think it was originally published over a decade ago, but 31 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 3: it got a new edition in twenty twenty three by 32 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 3: an author named Hugh Bowden, who is a professor of 33 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 3: ancient history at King's College, London. This is a really 34 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 3: great book. But one of the things he mentioned several 35 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 3: times is ancient writers bringing up a mystery cult and 36 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 3: then saying I have been instructed in a dream not 37 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 3: to say any more about this. 38 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 2: I can. 39 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 3: My lips are sealed, like Paulsenius will be like, then, 40 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 3: this really interesting thing happened in Samothrace, of which I 41 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 3: can tell you nothing, which itself makes for a very 42 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 3: enticing subject. 43 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and and course runs completely counter to our modern 44 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: understanding of history, like, now everything must be revealed, Please 45 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: reveal it to us. 46 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, everything except when you have met face to face 47 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 3: the terrifying power of a god or a goddess. Now, Rob, 48 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 3: I know today you wanted to wanted to do some 49 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 3: work laying the groundwork establishing a bit about the historical 50 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 3: context of broader Greco Roman religion in the ancient Mediterranean world, 51 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 3: which is the context in which these mystery cults existed. 52 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 3: But before we do that, I thought it might be 53 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 3: important just to do a little bit of disambiguation on terminology, 54 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 3: because if you are coming into an episode called mystery cults, 55 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 3: and you are bringing the normal connotations of the word 56 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 3: mystery and cult that modern English speakers would bring with you, 57 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 3: that might send your mind off in several different wrong 58 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 3: directions at once. 59 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: That's right. If you were to tell someone I just 60 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: joined a mystery cult today, you might be it might 61 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: be accurate to think, oh, this individual joined a book club, 62 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: or maybe this is a really cool band name. And 63 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: if someone were to join a mystery cult, say in 64 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: the nineteen eighties or nineteen nineties in say the United States, 65 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: well it's going to have different connotations and it might 66 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: read to a certain it might lead to a certain 67 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: amount of panic. But yeah, we have to differentiate a 68 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 2: mystery cult in its ancient application. 69 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 3: Here, right, And so we need to do work on 70 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 3: both of those words, actually, on mystery and on cult. 71 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 3: So in in modern English, the word cult is typically 72 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 3: used to mean a specific type of religious phenomenon, almost 73 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 3: always with pejorative connotations. So a cult refers to a marginal, 74 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 3: extreme and usually socially harmful form of religion from the 75 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 3: point of view of the person choosing this term. So, 76 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 3: for example, a cult is a religion that has relatively 77 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 3: few adherents compared to major world religions. Maybe one that 78 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 3: enforces strict reverence and obedience of a human leader. Maybe 79 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 3: religion that requires adherents to cut off contact with loved 80 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 3: ones and the rest of the outside world. Things like that. 81 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: Yes. Indeed, the word cult has often been used by 82 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 2: more established religious groups against new religious movements, new religious 83 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 2: movements that could potentially have harmful attributes but may not. 84 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 2: This was a hallmark, of course, of the Christian countercult 85 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 2: movement of the late twentieth century, often targeting Christian groups 86 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 2: held as heretical by larger Christian organizations, which of course 87 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: is a tail almost as old as Christianity itself in 88 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 2: many respects. 89 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 3: And in some cases what the Christians were saying about 90 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 3: those people probably resembled what the Roman Pagans were saying 91 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 3: about the early Christians. You know, they meet in secret, 92 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 3: and they eat babies alive and stuff. 93 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course all this bleeds over too into 94 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 2: fiction and fantasy. You know, if you play Dungeons and Dragons, 95 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: you've probably noticed that I haven't checked in the new 96 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: Monster Manual which just came out. I have a copy 97 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 2: of it, but I haven't gotten to the cultists yet. 98 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 2: But generally, cultists are an enemy type in Dungeons and Dragons. 99 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 2: And what do you think of in Dungeons and Dragons 100 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 2: Within the context of Dungeons and Dragons when you encounter cultists, well, 101 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 2: they are just absolute bad guys with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. 102 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 2: They're just they're villains that you battle. They see that 103 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 2: another fantasy as well. 104 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 3: Usually their own proprietary robes and daggers if you loot them. 105 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah. If you get a mini of a cultists, 106 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 2: what do you expect to see a robe and a dagger? 107 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 3: Those are the hallmarks, right, So that's what cult usually 108 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 3: means in English today in general usage, and then of 109 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 3: course you get the derivative term, you know, like cult 110 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 3: films and stuff that are more ironic usages stemming from 111 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 3: that usage. Yeah, but in the context of Greco Roman history, 112 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 3: the word cult does not have any of those connotations. 113 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 3: It doesn't have any negative implications. It does not imply 114 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 3: a marginal or unusual practice either. There were cults of 115 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 3: the mainstream gods of the Greek and Roman pantheon, so 116 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,799 Speaker 3: you'd have the local cult of Apollo, the local cult 117 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 3: of Jupiter, the cult of Dionysus, et cetera. So when 118 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 3: used by ancient historians, you can think of the word 119 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: cult as basically just a synonym for the word worship 120 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 3: or system of worship. So the cult of Apollo a 121 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 3: particular time and place in the Hellenic world would be 122 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 3: the system of beliefs, practices, and social structures under which 123 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 3: Apollo was worshiped. In fact, there's a bit of interesting 124 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 3: etymology here. The English word cult is derived through several steps, 125 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 3: originally from the Latin cultus, which often literally means worship 126 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 3: but also means care in the sense of taking care 127 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 3: of something or tending to the needs of something. So, 128 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 3: for example, agriculture is tending to the needs of the fields. 129 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 3: To cultivate means to till a field and preparation for planting. 130 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 3: So the cult of a particular god is the way 131 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 3: of tending to the needs of that God in the 132 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 3: form of worship, prayer, festivals, rituals, and sacrifices, the latter 133 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 3: of which could take many forms, often agricultural products like 134 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: grain or the meat of livestock, or could have other forms, 135 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 3: you know, maybe a monetary donation, purchasing one of the 136 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 3: aforementioned products, or things like incense or wine. 137 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: So when we think of something like the cult of Cthulhu, 138 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 2: we're just talking about taking care of Cthulhu. Yes, looking 139 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: after Cthulhu, tending to the needs of Cthulhu, which sounds 140 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: far less frightening and threatening. 141 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 3: That's true, it's a beautiful thing. And in fact this 142 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 3: highlights something about Greek and Roman pagan religion that is 143 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 3: unfamiliar to practitioners of many of the major world religions today. 144 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 3: People who are primarily familiar with religion through Christianity or 145 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 3: Islam or Judaism. The most common form of public religion 146 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 3: in the Greek and Roman world was essentially a transactional 147 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 3: quid pro quo relationship between the person or the local 148 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 3: community and a god. So the person and the community 149 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 3: at large performed rituals and sacrifices in honor of the god, 150 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 3: and in return, the God was expected to provide blessings 151 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 3: to the person. So it was generally understood that, you know, 152 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 3: the gods would have power over events that were beyond 153 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 3: human control. They can maybe control how, you know, the 154 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 3: weather and agricultural outcomes and diseases and things like that, 155 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 3: and so in order to get the God to you know, 156 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 3: treat you nice as far as those things beyond human 157 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 3: control went, the thing you would do is take care 158 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 3: of the God. You would honor their festivals, you would 159 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 3: make sacrifices to them, you would do prayers for them. 160 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 3: And in that sense, you can really look at it 161 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 3: as kind of a contract. There's a bargain. We do 162 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 3: things for you, you do things for us. 163 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the agriculture comparison is quite apt here 164 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: to think of it almost as like a knowledge of 165 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 2: the unseen world that then you of course have to honor. 166 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 2: Like Okay, we've discovered this. We were aware of this 167 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 2: relationship between these entities we cannot see, but who are 168 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 2: quite powerful over human affairs. And of course we have 169 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: to cultivate this relationship. We have to make sure that 170 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: they're happy so we can be happy. This is how 171 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 2: the world works. 172 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 3: Right, and this is the main way religion is understood 173 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 3: among the ancient Greeks and Romans. That way of approaching 174 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 3: religion is fundamentally different from the major religions of the 175 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 3: world today, like Christianity and Islam, which place emphasis on 176 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 3: belief and on a form of mental submission to God. 177 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 3: Mainstream Greek and Roman religion was really there was not 178 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 3: a lot of discourse about what you believed or like, 179 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 3: you know, did you mentally internally honor and love God? 180 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 3: That That was just not really a common way of 181 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 3: approaching it for the ancient Greeks and Romans. Instead, it 182 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 3: was did you do the rituals, did you do the prayers? 183 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 3: Did you make the sacrifices, did you celebrate the festivals? 184 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, do you know what the gods want? And 185 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: generally what the gods want are those rituals, are those 186 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: sacrifices and so forth. It's more transactional. 187 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 3: I was thinking about another difference that came to mind 188 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 3: for me as I was reading this Abouden book that 189 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 3: we're going to be talking about in the series. I 190 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 3: can really only speak to my intimate familiarity with Christianity 191 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 3: here in America today. But I think a lot of 192 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: modern Christians, at least in the United States, would today 193 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 3: say that God does not need our worship, like he 194 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 3: is not left wanting if deprived of it. Rather, I 195 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 3: think most would say that say something like we worship 196 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 3: God because it is right to do so, that God 197 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 3: is by nature deserving of worship, and so we his 198 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 3: followers are simply acknowledging that. I don't get that impression 199 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 3: about Greco Roman pagans. I don't get the feeling they 200 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 3: would have thought of it this way. The worship and 201 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 3: sacrifices that Greco Roman pagans seem to have given the 202 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 3: gods were things that the gods wanted and in fact needed. 203 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 3: And one piece of evidence for this occurred to me 204 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 3: when I was reading Bowden's recounting of the myth of 205 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 3: Demeter and Persephone, in which Persephone has stolen a way 206 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 3: to the underworld. Demeter is left to straw looking for her. Eventually, 207 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 3: she can return back to the upper world for part 208 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 3: of the year, but has to return to the underworld 209 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 3: for another part of the year, and this ends up 210 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 3: relating to understandings of seasonal cycles. But anyway, this myth 211 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 3: is related to one of the most important mystery cults 212 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 3: in the ancient Mediterranean, the Elusinian Mysteries. More on that later, 213 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 3: but there is a part of the myth where Demeter, 214 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 3: the Greek goddess of fertile fields and the harbor, is 215 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 3: mourning the kidnapping of her daughter into the underworld, and 216 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 3: she uses her power over the fields to stop grain 217 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 3: from growing over the earth. And it turns out, at 218 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,599 Speaker 3: least within a common telling of this tale in the 219 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 3: Homeric Hymn to Demeter, this is alarming not only to 220 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 3: humans who need to eat the grain. You know that's 221 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 3: going to cause famine on earth, but it's also alarming 222 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 3: to the gods, because the gods need to receive grain 223 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 3: sacrifices from humans, and so Zeus is motivated to do 224 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 3: something to fix the situation, and that struck me as 225 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 3: very alien to the most common ways of thinking about 226 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 3: God that I encounter at least to the twenty first 227 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 3: century American. It seems to me that that to the 228 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 3: Greco Roman pagans, not only was the worship of the 229 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 3: god's transactional. The gods were not just taking pity on 230 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 3: us or doing us a favor by engaging in this 231 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 3: deal making. They needed, or at least very much wanted, 232 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 3: what we were bringing to the table. 233 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: Yes. Yes, very different from the idea of well, God 234 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 2: created you. God wants your love, and you are loved 235 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 2: by God and therefore like invited into his arms. No, 236 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: this is more we need that grain, like there's a 237 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 2: there's an economy here, and it needs to be maintained. 238 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So anyway, I guess we got into 239 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 3: some digressions there. But that's why the word cult should 240 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 3: not mislead you. 241 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 2: There. 242 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 3: We're not talking about the you know, the the cultists 243 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 3: of dungeons and dragons. It just means a form of 244 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 3: worship as understood within the ancient Mediterranean. Now, the other 245 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 3: word in a mystery cult is mystery. This is an 246 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 3: interesting case too. In common usage today, mystery refers to 247 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 3: a sort of puzzle with a hidden solution. So a 248 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 3: mystery story is one where the plot is propelled by 249 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 3: your desire to have a question answered. There may be 250 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 3: a hidden solution, or there may be no known solution 251 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 3: at all. Sometimes a mystery refers to a thing that 252 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 3: a question that cannot. 253 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 2: Be answered right unsolved mysteries. 254 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 3: Yes, So this could imply that a mystery cult is 255 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 3: a form of worship where the main goal is to 256 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 3: solve some kind of information puzzle, to answer a question, 257 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 3: or to access a piece of hidden information. That's not 258 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 3: primarily what's going on with mystery cults. While the Greco 259 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 3: Roman mystery cults absolutely did have elements of secrecy and 260 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 3: privileged information, and we'll get into more of that later 261 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 3: as well, the main sense in which the word mystery 262 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 3: is used in mystery cults is to refer not to 263 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 3: an information puzzle, but to a specific type of secret 264 00:15:53,600 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 3: initiation ritual known in Greek as mysteria, which some somewhat 265 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 3: overlaps with other Greek concepts of orgia and teleti. Abouden 266 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 3: mentions these three concepts altogether. They seem to sometimes be 267 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 3: used interchangeably, or maybe to refer to related but slightly 268 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 3: different things Orgea and teleti. He translates as mystic rights 269 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 3: and initiations, So what are the mysteries? The mysteries are 270 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 3: these initiation rights, and they could indeed be described as 271 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 3: in many ways mysterious. They were often held at night. 272 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 3: They were often conducted in secret, so they might take 273 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 3: place inside a kind of a protected building outside of 274 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 3: public view. So in the case of the Elusinian mysteries, 275 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 3: which will describe in more detail later, I'm sure there 276 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 3: would be kind of publicly viewable part of this festival. 277 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 3: They would take place outside, people would be able to 278 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 3: see it going on, but eventually the festival would progress 279 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 3: into an enclosed area inside a kind of temple complex, 280 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 3: where things would happen inside and those not initiated into 281 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: the secret rights would not be able to know what 282 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 3: was going on. Sometimes these rights would also be mysterious 283 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 3: in the sense that participants might be blindfolded or hooded 284 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 3: so that they couldn't see or understand what was happening. 285 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 3: And the rights were often just made up of weird, baffling, frightening, 286 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 3: emotionally intense experiences and encounters with the power of the gods. 287 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 3: So there are absolutely things about these rights that we 288 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 3: might think of as mysterious and the mystery cults did 289 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 3: absolutely have secrets, but the mystery in the name refers 290 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 3: to these rights, refers to the strange, powerful, obscure rights 291 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 3: of initiation, not so much to an information puzzle mystery 292 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 3: in the Sherlock Holmes sense. If that distinction makes sense. 293 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, absolutely. Now I want to add an additional 294 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 2: note on the term that you mentioned already, orgia. This 295 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 2: term is of course used in the context of religious 296 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 2: rights in ancient Greece, and while orgea might entail sexuality, 297 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,719 Speaker 2: it does not inherently entail sexuality. I was reading a 298 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 2: bit about this in a really nice twenty twenty three 299 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: piece in The Conversation by Christian George Schwinzel. This is 300 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 2: a historian, a French historian of the ancient world, and 301 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: he writes about this, and he points out that the 302 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 2: term that we in common usage today, org orgy in English, 303 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 2: didn't come to mean group sexual activity and excessive food 304 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: and drink till after eighteen hundred CE, especially during the 305 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: nineteenth century, and especially in French literature of the time. Schwinzel, however, 306 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 2: stresses that this doesn't mean that the ancient Greeks and 307 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 2: Romans didn't engage in such activities. They certainly did, they 308 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: just referred to them by different names. Games Twinzel, who 309 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 2: is again himself French, wrote an entire book on the subject. 310 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 3: It's funny how this is one of these terms that 311 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 3: has come around, kind of like cult in a way, 312 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 3: where I use the word orgy all the time, not 313 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 3: to refer to anything sexual. I just mean like a 314 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 3: sort of an excessive indulgence in something. 315 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 2: Right right. Well, And in fact, he gets into this 316 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 2: a little bit like bringing up the film Babylon for 317 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: the kind of thing came out that same year, which 318 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 2: is like a Hollywood Babylon sort of thing, and he 319 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 2: points out that some of that the movie does contain 320 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 2: a fictional depiction of a Hollywood orgy in the modern sense. 321 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: But then one might say, well, this movie is an 322 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 2: orgy for the senses in the metaphorical sense. But again, 323 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 2: when you get back to the use of the of 324 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 2: the term orgea, it does not necessarily mean any kind 325 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: of sexual activity was going on. It could, but it 326 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 2: doesn't inherently mean that. So it's just another important footnote 327 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 2: about the the usages of the term. The French literature example, 328 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 2: you do see works of that in thearing that time 329 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 2: period that are portraying the ancient world as engaging in 330 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: these sorts of rights, that putting more of a you know, 331 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 2: an erotic sexual spin on them. 332 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 3: Right, So that's kind of an adaptation. But even in 333 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 3: the original Greek understanding that we were just talking about, 334 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 3: as explained by Bowden, there is the idea that the 335 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 3: orgea or orgea, these mystic rights would have been probably 336 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 3: extremely emotionally intense and overwhelming to the senses ancient writers 337 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 3: who do, even if they don't describe what the rights 338 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 3: themselves were, they often describe the effect of them, which 339 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 3: is that they are life changing, an overwhelming experience that 340 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 3: leaves one deeply shaken to the core exactly now. 341 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 2: Again, that book by Hugh Bowden has been one of 342 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 2: our key resources here, and Balden does a great job 343 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 2: as a great approach to the topic, grounding his initial 344 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 2: approach in a discussion of what we might refer to 345 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 2: as the mainstream religious ecosystem of the ancient Greco Roman world, 346 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,479 Speaker 2: and then diving into where the mystery cults fit in 347 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 2: and how they generally differed. And we've already been engaging 348 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 2: with some of this, you know, we have to we 349 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 2: have to exit our modern understanding of organized, top down 350 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 2: religion and get into a different ecosystem, a different way 351 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 2: that things worked in order to understand then how the 352 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 2: mystery cults are sort of set aside even from that, 353 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: So we're we're largely dealing with the world before Christianity 354 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 2: and set apart from its key characteristics, namely, you know, 355 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 2: any notion of a centrally organized doctrinal religion. So first up, 356 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 2: this is this probably seems like an outrageous overstate the obvious, 357 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 2: but there were a lot of gods, yes, and by 358 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: that we don't just mean the standard twelve Olympians set 359 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 2: menu that instantly comes to mind. You know your Zeo's here, 360 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 2: Apollo and so forth. You know your main Greek gods, 361 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: the ones that you're going to see in a poster. 362 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 2: They're the ones that are frequently utilized in Greek mythology 363 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 2: themed works of fiction. No, I would say, instead, think 364 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 2: of an exhaustive cheesecake factory style menu, one that makes 365 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 2: you question whether the kitchen can truly deliver on all 366 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 2: of these diverse menu items. Only even that is not 367 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: a perfect technology, because the cheesecake factory is, as I 368 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 2: understand it centrally organized. The idea is that any cheesecake 369 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 2: factory you go to is going to have the same 370 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 2: exhaustive menu. 371 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's right. I'm trying to think of a 372 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 3: better analogy, because so you had lots of different gods, 373 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 3: and then you had local versions of all these gods. 374 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 3: So almost more like how you got McDonald's. But the 375 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 3: local McDonald Donald's is a franchise, you know they But 376 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 3: that's a little misleading too, because there's top down control 377 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 3: like McDonald's Corporates, that's rules about what franchise owners can do. 378 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 3: So I don't know. You imagine you've you've got your 379 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 3: basic list of gods, then you've got a lot of 380 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 3: other lesser known gods, and then you've also got the 381 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,479 Speaker 3: local ways or the local cult of each of the 382 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 3: main gods that are going to be different than how 383 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 3: that god is appreciated and understood in a different place. 384 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, Any given community or city, states, city 385 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 2: state is going to have its own cast of deities. 386 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 2: They determine the course of people's lives. Individual cult practices 387 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 2: are going to vary widely across the inherently fractured populations. 388 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 2: A variety that was at times due to actual independence, 389 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 2: such as in the post Alexander period where you had 390 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 2: a you know, very formerly united and now fractured empire, 391 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: or during Roman rule, where you know, everything is is 392 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: wrapped up under Roman rule, but with local religious customs 393 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 2: largely left alone. As long as they're not interfering with 394 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 2: what the Romans are doing, fine, go ahead and do 395 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 2: whatever you were doing beforehand. So you know, as an example, 396 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 2: in ancient Greece, you'd likely find the major Olympian gods, 397 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 2: you know, the Big Twelve anywhere you went, as well 398 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 2: as the various underworld deities, although there again might be 399 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 2: regional differences in the way any of these are treated. 400 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 2: But then you'd also have lesser nature deities and especially 401 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 2: body of water specific nymphs and the like that would 402 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 2: depend on where you were. You know, they're inherently localized. 403 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 2: And then you would also have foreign imported gods that 404 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 2: were worshiped locally, you know, likely with some sort of 405 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: localized spin as well. So I hope I don't sound 406 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 2: insensitive by continuing to compare all of this to food, 407 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 2: but it feels like one of the better ways to 408 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 2: compare it to the modern world is to think of 409 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 2: all the restaurants in your given location, some very widespread 410 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: but perhaps localized to some degree, highly localized cuisines as well, 411 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: whatever that you know, the weird local spin on pizza 412 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 2: happens to be in your city, that sort of thing, 413 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 2: and then also put a bubblegum on it, and then 414 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 2: also imports from other areas that are again likely localized 415 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 2: to some degree as well. Now there's here another great 416 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: question that that about and explores early on in the book, 417 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 2: and that is where did these gods come from? And 418 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 2: of course this is a huge question, but he does 419 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 2: a great job addressing it in brief, you know, for 420 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 2: the purposes of this work. Because naturally one can go 421 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: in all manner of exhaustive skeptical rationales for the emergence 422 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 2: of belief in gods and human beings, as well as 423 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: more than a few fringe theories leading up to just 424 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 2: belief in their pre existence. You know, you just can 425 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 2: go all the way and say, well, Zeus is real. 426 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 2: That's all there is to it. I'm reminded of the 427 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 2: in sort of looking at the spectrum of different ways 428 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 2: of thinking about it, though, I'm reminded of that famous 429 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 2: Voltaire quote, which I'll adjust for our purposes here. If 430 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 2: gods did not exist, it would be necessary to invent them. 431 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: And as Balden explains, the gods did prove necessary to 432 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 2: our ancestors, though they were not created wholesale by spiritual 433 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: leaders or religious committees or anything like that. Nobody said, well, 434 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 2: we really need some sort of invisible figure to serve 435 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 2: this purpose in our culture or life. Now, again, that 436 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 2: may seem like an overstatement of the obvious, but I 437 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 2: think it's important to sort of draw that out. So rather, 438 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 2: the gods emerged out of a variety of factors in 439 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 2: human evolution and cognition, including Balidan points out our predisposition 440 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 2: to have strong reactions to the potential presence of a 441 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 2: predator or a corpse. In this I was reminded of 442 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 2: one of the great quotes from Cork McCarthy's The Crossing, 443 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 2: where he writes, deep in each man is the knowledge 444 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 2: that something knows of his existence, Something knows and cannot 445 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 2: be fled nor hid from, you know, which is kind 446 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 2: of a fancy way of saying it feels like something's 447 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: watching you. What is watching you might be a god 448 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 2: who knows and Indeed, Balden brings up the ancient tradition 449 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 2: of the evil Eye in this which I hadn't quite 450 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 2: thought of as a predatory presence before, but that's pretty 451 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 2: dead on. You can think of the evil eye roughly 452 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 2: as an invisible supernatural entity. You see some ancient traditions 453 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 2: regarding the evil Eye from, you know, especially throughout the 454 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 2: Mediterranean world. Jewish superstition in particular holds that it lurks 455 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 2: in the world at large, ready to afflict individuals with 456 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 2: malign force if provoked, and it's particularly provoked by good luck, 457 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 2: by boasting and so forth. So if such an entity 458 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 2: is watching you, then what else is watching you? And 459 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 2: in fact, we've discussed this on the show. Before you 460 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: get into traditions like the Hamsa, this is like a 461 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 2: hand eye symbol toward off the evil eye. You get 462 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 2: into Gorgonian traditions, you know, some sort of terrifying head 463 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 2: to scare away evil and sometimes things like the Haamsa 464 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: are also connected to the idea of independent supernatural entities. 465 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: So you're potentially using one unseen entity against another in 466 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: order to protect. 467 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 3: Yourself, right the way you might use the demon Pazuzu 468 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 3: to protect yourself against Lamashtu or something like that exactly. 469 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we discussed that at length back in October. 470 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: And it's interesting to you have to connect these ideas 471 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 2: like these, at least in part, like the rough forms 472 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 2: that would be fleshed out into these traditions of deities 473 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 2: might be in some way connected to just our hardwired 474 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 2: nature to be on the lookout for things that are 475 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 2: watching us and might not you know, might might wish 476 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 2: us no harm, but also might be hungry. 477 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. So this is the kind of thing where, of 478 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 3: course it's impossible to know for sure where our original 479 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 3: where our religious impulses originally come from. We can only 480 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 3: come up with more or less plausible stories about how 481 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 3: we think it may have happened. I find that the 482 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 3: kind of predator consciousness agent detection theory is a fairly 483 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 3: strong candidate in my view. It seems pretty plausible to me. 484 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 2: Right right, you know, at least for some of like 485 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 2: the initial broad strokes. But obviously you end up having 486 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: a lot of additional cultural influences and just basic human 487 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 2: needs that get woven into that, things like you know, 488 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: veneration of ancestors and personal loss. I mean, the list 489 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 2: goes on and on. 490 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of like the way religions develop. It's 491 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 3: like chess games, you know, It's like they can all 492 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 3: start off kind of similar and then branch off into 493 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 3: everything is a unique in the end. 494 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the gods bout and stresses are invisible and 495 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: for the most part unheard. At least, they're not heard 496 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 2: through their voices at least by most people, but rather 497 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 2: through their actions. But unless these actions actually occur inside 498 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 2: a temple devoted to a particular god, it's left up 499 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: to our interpretation which deity spoke and what they were 500 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 2: trying to say, And that interpretation was often a state duty. 501 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 2: Various forms of divination were employed to see what the 502 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 2: gods wanted, rather again distinct from simply putting one's faith 503 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 2: or trust in a deity, but rather figuring out what 504 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 2: they want. And again, what they generally want is appeasement 505 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: via rights and sacrifices. 506 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 3: Now we've already alluded to the fact that a lot 507 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 3: of these sacrifices were agricultural products, but they could take 508 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 3: a lot of forms. 509 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, he brings up treasure from conquest. You know, 510 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 2: we just got this bunch of gold in and it 511 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 2: seems rvy prisoners, Yeah, and mean prison It seems right 512 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 2: to give you some of this gods. Also, how about 513 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 2: some meat and the smoke from the burning fat. This 514 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 2: of course is another hallmark of you know, of offerings 515 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 2: to the gods. But I found it really interesting what 516 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 2: he brings up here, pointing out the bone was often 517 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 2: part of the sacrifice that was given to the gods, 518 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 2: bone being long lasting, bone being you know, under in 519 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 2: a certain way for our purposes here eternal. So you 520 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 2: offer the bones up to the eternal gods. While the 521 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 2: meat off the bones, well, that's that's not going to 522 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 2: last in neither a week, and so that's why we 523 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 2: will feast on that, and we will offer the bones 524 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: to the gods. 525 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you'd have a common way of dividing up 526 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 3: the animal sacrifice so that, yeah, the humans eat the 527 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 3: meat and the bones and the fat are burned for 528 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 3: the gods. And one way a bout in frames this 529 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 3: which I thought was interesting, is it's kind of a 530 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 3: way for the humans and the gods to enjoy altogether. 531 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 3: It's a shared festival. So we get the meat and 532 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 3: the gods get to enjoy the smoke rising up from 533 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 3: the burned bones and fat, and the organs that that's 534 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 3: smoke is rising up into the air where it will 535 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 3: be enjoyed by the gods. And this point of view, 536 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 3: by the way, is not unique to Greek and Roman paganism. 537 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,239 Speaker 3: You find this, for example, in the Hebrew Bible. There 538 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 3: are multiple passages in the books of I think Exodus 539 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 3: and Leviticus that talk about the burnt offering being a 540 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 3: pleasing aroma to the Lord. The smoke rises up and 541 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:32,479 Speaker 3: God enjoys the smell. 542 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I also really liked the way about and 543 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 2: discussed this here, the idea that when these rites were held, 544 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 2: the gods were invited and present, they were enjoying the 545 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 2: food alongside us and other festivities as well, like the 546 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 2: gods were present there. And of course I guess it's 547 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 2: worth noting that you see echoes of this, you know, 548 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: throughout other organized religions, like even today in modern Christian 549 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,479 Speaker 2: churches you may hear form of like well, when you know, 550 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 2: when we gather together and worship God, God is present, 551 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 2: at least in a spiritual. 552 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 3: Sense, right, Yeah, that's right. Though I do get the feeling. 553 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 3: There's a difference in that a lot of Christians today, 554 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 3: I would say probably feel they enjoy a more intimate 555 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 3: connection with God as a person. Then you get from 556 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 3: the idea of at least the public transactional forms of 557 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 3: Greco Roman paganism. 558 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess it's also worth noting that in 559 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 2: like a lot of modern Christian traditions, is the idea 560 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: that like God is always with you, He's always there 561 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: watching what you're doing. You can always speak to him, 562 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 2: even if you don't necessarily hear him speak back to you. 563 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 2: And it's and to put that, at least some of 564 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,959 Speaker 2: the ways it's described in other monotheistic religions. Is it 565 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 2: like God is closer than your own breath. Yeah, but 566 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 2: another place, and this is perhaps an interesting exams ample. 567 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 2: And then it's drawing on, you know, so called pagan religions. 568 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 2: In its fictional treatment, you get into these accusations of 569 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 2: the witch's Sabbath, where witches are gathering together and having 570 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,839 Speaker 2: their big festival, and then who shows up, Oh, it's 571 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,720 Speaker 2: the hornet goat himself. It's Satan who appears physically, which 572 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 2: you know kind of like matches up to a limited 573 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 2: degree with some of these ancient Greco Roman ideas that 574 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 2: when you celebrate the gods. When you make offerings to 575 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 2: the gods, the gods may appear, though. 576 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 3: In the public festival. I mean, Bouten very much makes 577 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 3: the point that, in his view, in the public festivals, 578 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 3: that appearance would be indirect like that it would just 579 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 3: be the understanding there would be like a cult statue 580 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 3: of the God there, and there would be the understanding 581 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 3: that by making the sacrifice, you're kind of sharing a 582 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 3: meal with the gods. But it's very much, at least 583 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 3: as this book argues, very much not the feeling with 584 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 3: the public religions, the transactional ones, that God's presence is 585 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 3: felt intimately, because that's kind of the difference that makes 586 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 3: the mystery cults so appealing. That's when you actually have 587 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 3: what feels like a more direct encounter with the presence 588 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 3: of the God. 589 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 2: Yes, this is this is this is a really good 590 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 2: distinction to make. Yes, So the modern Christian Church example, 591 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 2: a God is spiritually present, the totally made up which 592 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 2: is Sabbath example, the divine or infernal force is physically present. 593 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 2: And in the Greco Roman examples we're discussing here, according 594 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 2: to Bowden, the gods are still very much invisible we 595 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: don't see them, we don't hear them. But again, their 596 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 2: presence is known not by anything they're doing, you know, 597 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 2: they're at the festivities, but what they are doing in 598 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 2: the world at large that affects humans, causing natural disasters 599 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 2: and so forth, affecting the crops and so. 600 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 3: Forth, or communicating through divination maybe exactly, you know, Apollo 601 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 3: might communicate through his priestess at Delphi or something. But yeah, 602 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 3: like you said, largely in affecting the outcomes of events 603 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 3: beyond our control. 604 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they were invisible, but that doesn't mean they 605 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 2: were absent. They were thought to be very present in 606 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 2: human affairs, and it came when it came time to 607 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 2: engage in these special feats and sacrifices, they were understood 608 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 2: to be present, but were invisible. And when I say 609 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 2: they're present, though, we should also point out there would 610 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 2: be likenesses as well, So there would be of statues, 611 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 2: idols and whatnot carried through the streets or situated within 612 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 2: a temple. At any rate, these various cults, as we've 613 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 2: been discussing, engaged in activities that were concerned with maintaining 614 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 2: proper relations with the gods and about and indicates you 615 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 2: can roughly divide such rights into two modes of religiosity, 616 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 2: imagistic and doctrinal. So the doctrinal is more like regular 617 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 2: low key maintenance. So you know, you bring your car in, 618 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 2: you know, every for so many miles whatever the sticker 619 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 2: tells you. It's generally what, you know, a certain amount 620 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 2: of time or certain amount of miles, bring it in, 621 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 2: get some low key maintenance, and that's all you really 622 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 2: need to do. And you can also compare this, he 623 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 2: points out to modern weekly Christian religious services. You know, 624 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 2: like you're going to go. It's not going to necessarily 625 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 2: knock your socks off, but it's you know about regularly 626 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 2: engaging in the top down information and rights and values 627 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 2: of a given religion. Yeah. 628 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 3: He describes the doctrinal approach to religion as one in 629 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 3: which the rituals are frequent, low intensity, and usually also 630 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 3: they have the element of being semantically clear, like their 631 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 3: meaning is well explained and commonly understood. 632 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 2: Right, And he points out that some of the various 633 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 2: ancient examples of like the city states carrying out rituals 634 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 2: on a regular basis, these might fall under that classification. 635 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 2: And I was also wondering, well, maybe it would. Also, 636 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 2: you could also throw in like minor acts of household 637 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 2: or personal protective right though I guess that would violate 638 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 2: the general top down organization model involved with the doctrinal. Now, 639 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 2: coming back to the imagistic, this is more important to 640 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 2: our discussion of mystery cults. This is the infrequent, intense, 641 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 2: and often nonverbal. It is a high key experience engaging 642 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 2: about and points out episodic or flash bulb memory rather 643 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 2: than semantic memory. So we're talking high levels of arousal, 644 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:42,439 Speaker 2: an experience, a roller coaster ride. And while this latter 645 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 2: classification is not unique to the nature of mystery cults, 646 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 2: it does seem to be a defining factor as we'll 647 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 2: be exploring. So you're talking about engaging in a just 648 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 2: jaw dropping experience of the gods and or the unseen 649 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 2: world of these ancient religions. 650 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 3: Right. So, under this system of classification, the imagistic is 651 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 3: something that happens rarely, is extremely emotionally intense and powerful, 652 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,720 Speaker 3: leaves a lasting memory, and often is not clearly explained 653 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 3: and is left for the person experiencing it to figure 654 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 3: out what it means by themselves exactly. Now, one of 655 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 3: the things that's interesting in the book when he brings 656 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,320 Speaker 3: up these concepts of these concepts from the anthropology of 657 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 3: religion doctrinal religions versus imagistic ones, is that they seem 658 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 3: to often arise in different systems of social organization. That 659 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 3: doctrinal religions are more common in large, large social groupings, 660 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 3: maybe in say cities or towns, you know, places where 661 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 3: there are lots of people gathered together, and places that 662 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,320 Speaker 3: tend to be more socially hierarchical, where you've got levels 663 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 3: of authority, whereas more often we find imagistic forms of 664 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 3: religion in people that live in smaller groups, smaller social 665 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 3: systems of or organization, that are less hierarchical, more egalitarian. 666 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 3: And one can kind of think of reasons that may 667 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 3: be the case, Like it just occurred to me that 668 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 3: you know, in smaller societies with less hierarchy, you know, 669 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 3: you say you're living in a in a tribe of 670 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 3: you know, a few dozen people instead of in a 671 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 3: in a big city full of strangers, A lot more 672 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 3: of your existence is probably governed by individual relationships between people, 673 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 3: and that might affect like how the meaning of experience 674 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 3: needs to be managed. There's maybe a lot more room 675 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 3: for ambiguity and trying to understand the uh, you know, 676 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 3: what life means? What was the meaning of a powerful 677 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 3: emotional experience you had that has something to do with 678 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 3: your role in this society and and you're you're you know, 679 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 3: attaining of age within it and things like that. Versus 680 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 3: in a big culture, like say you live in a 681 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 3: in a city state with a lot of strangers around, 682 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 3: there is a lot less social trust and a lot 683 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 3: less based on individual relationships that will be maintained over time. 684 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 3: You're going to be doing economic transactions with strangers and 685 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 3: things like that, and thus you really might need you 686 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 3: might get more comfort from the idea of a system 687 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 3: of clearly explained rules. You know, does that make sense? 688 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 3: Like that you want to kind of legal doctrine there 689 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 3: where things are explained and you don't have to worry 690 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 3: about not understanding what the religious experience means anyway. So 691 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 3: there's that kind of distinction about where you find these 692 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 3: different modes of religion most often. But it's not a 693 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 3: strict rule here because clearly one of the things that's 694 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 3: going to come up in this book is that while 695 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 3: you've got these public forms of ancient cults in the 696 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 3: Greco Roman world that are. You know, you can argue 697 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,720 Speaker 3: about which category they fit better in, but they probably 698 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 3: fit better into the doctrinal version. You know, they're more 699 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 3: about kind of clearly explained relationships. They're more kind of 700 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 3: low intensity than high intensity. So you've got those going 701 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 3: on in the Ancient City States. But then you also 702 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,280 Speaker 3: have this parallel form of religion, which are the mystery cults, 703 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,839 Speaker 3: which I think you can very much argue are more 704 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 3: like the imagistic religions. They are based on these rights 705 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 3: that are powerful, extreme emotional experiences that people not only 706 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 3: are not allowed to fully explain to people who have 707 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 3: not been initiated, they probably, as Bouten argues, could not 708 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,719 Speaker 3: explain if they tried. So you've essentially got both forms 709 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 3: within the same general culture, within the same time and place. 710 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, this is the basic concept of 711 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 2: the mystery cult. This is the religious ecosystem in which 712 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 2: you will find it. And yeah, in the following episode 713 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 2: or episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, we're going 714 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 2: to dig in a little deeper and look at some 715 00:42:55,200 --> 00:43:00,439 Speaker 2: of these specific examples of mystery cults, what we think 716 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 2: they were up to, what is written and known, what 717 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 2: is presumed it should be a fun ride, a high 718 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 2: intensity ride. Oh no, it'll be low key. 719 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 3: It'll be low key, I'm kidding, but hopefully of high interest, yes, 720 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 3: low key of high interest, yes, But we're not going 721 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,720 Speaker 3: to subject to you to like blindfolded beatings and ritual 722 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 3: mockery and things like that like you might get on 723 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 3: the way to the Lucinian Mystery. 724 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, or on other podcasts, other podcasts maybe ended that, 725 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 2: but that's not really our vibe here. All right, Well, 726 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 2: we hope that you'll join us in those subsequent episodes, 727 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 2: so the next one should come out the following Tuesday. 728 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 2: In the meantime, though, we'd love to hear from you 729 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 2: if you have any feedback, personal experience, and so forth 730 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,839 Speaker 2: regarding what we've talked about already right in, we'd love 731 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,439 Speaker 2: to hear from you. A reminder of the stuff. To Blow 732 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 2: Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, with 733 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 2: core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, though on Wednesdays we 734 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 2: do a short form episode, and on Fridays we set 735 00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,399 Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird 736 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,400 Speaker 2: film on Weird House Cinema. If you want to follow 737 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,280 Speaker 2: us on social media, Well, we're on different social medias. 738 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 2: Whatever you use, you may find us, and you know, 739 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 2: we'll just leave the mystery there. We're probably there. If 740 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 2: you're looking for us on Instagram, we're stvy and podcast 741 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 2: and if you use letterboxed and you want to keep 742 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,360 Speaker 2: up with Weird House Cinema, we're Weird House on there. 743 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 3: Huge thanks, as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 744 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 745 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 746 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 747 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 748 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:43,800 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 749 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 750 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,719 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 751 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. 752 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 2: Predation Ratatatator