1 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Wellness sun Mass. I'm doctor Nicole Saffire, and 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: today we're tackling a question that really sits at the 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: intersection of health, culture and policy. Why are Americans having 4 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: fewer children? Why are fewer Americans married? And what, if anything, 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: should government do about it? Now. I'm sure you remember 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: about six months ago we had Emma Waters from the 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: Heritage Foundation and she actually talked about how we are 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: seeing fewer babies being born in the United States and 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: our birth rate has declined so much that we are 10 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: entering a level where we're not going to be able 11 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: to repopulate over time. You've heard Elon Musk talk about it. 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: We need more babies, babies, babies, but the data is real. 13 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: And what we're going to talk about today is I'm 14 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: bringing on Kevin Roberts. He is the president of the 15 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: Heritage Foundation, whose organization recently released a sweeping report arguing 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: that declining marriage and family formation are what's central to 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: America's demographic crisis and that policy should actively address it. 18 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: So we're not just talking about the problem. He's coming 19 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: up with the solutions. And that's what I like. I 20 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: don't want to just hear people complain about something, I 21 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: want to go forward with what we can do about it. 22 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about the data, not the dogma, 23 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: and what the evidence actually shows about family structure and 24 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: child health, where critics say these proposals may go too far, 25 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: and how we can balance values with outcomes, because in medicine, 26 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: as in policy, intentions matter so much more than the results. 27 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: So let's get into it. Well. Joining us to discuss 28 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: this very important topic is Kevin Roberts, who is the 29 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: president of Heritage Foundation, who was a part of the 30 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: effort in putting together this really important report. So Kevin, 31 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today on wellness. 32 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: On mass Well, it's a pleasure, Nicole. 33 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: Obviously, I'm proud of my colleagues, but we're also all 34 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 3: grateful to you for all the work you've done over 35 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 3: the years to promote these same kinds of policies. 36 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: So let's dive right in, because, as you said, I've 37 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: been talking about this for a while, is concerning you know, 38 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of conversation as to people just 39 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: aren't having babies anymore, and part of that is cultural, 40 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: but some of it's economic as well. In the United States, 41 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: you know, we look at the birth rates and while 42 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: we're now kind of where Western Europe is with the 43 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: decline and their birth rates, we're not quite as extremely 44 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: low as East Asia, which by the way, they had 45 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: some very intentional ways to reduce birth weight rates. We 46 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: don't have to get into those. But what do you 47 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: think here in the United States is the main driver? 48 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: Is it a cultural shift or an economic shift? 49 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 3: Well, I actually would, without being evasive, I think I 50 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 3: would ascribe equal weight to those. I think that you 51 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 3: have cultural trends across the West, really across the developed 52 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,119 Speaker 3: world now, which usually will correspond that development will correspond 53 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 3: with declining birth rates. 54 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 2: At least in the United States, we've seen, maybe because. 55 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 3: Of some additional social, cultural political pressure, a decline in 56 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 3: marriage rates. It's the economic area where you really see 57 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 3: those facts, actors in the economy affecting both of those things, 58 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 3: marriage rates and birth rates. Our claim in the paper 59 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 3: is not to be dismissive toward those factors, culture and economy, 60 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 3: but also to say there's another factor that has clearly 61 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 3: been proven to have an impact on negative a negative 62 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,679 Speaker 3: impact on marriage and birth rates, and that's government policy, 63 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 3: and so as a right of Center policy group. We 64 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 3: wouldn't usually look to government policy other than in this 65 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 3: case we think that we might be able to use 66 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: it to reverse those declines. 67 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: Well, I mean that makes sense, you know, in theory 68 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: when you talk about it. Right now, in the United States, 69 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: I think our fratriality rate is like one point six, 70 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: which is well below that replacement threshold. But if you 71 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: look at some of the European countries like France, France 72 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: spends heavily on family benefits, much more so than the 73 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: United States, but they're also sitting at one point six. 74 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: So you know, how do you counter that? 75 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: Well, the two points. 76 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 3: Number one, our thesis is that reversing government policy alone 77 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: is not going to fix this. That in fact, you 78 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 3: do need to see those cultural and economic patterns or 79 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 3: factors that have gone into declining marriage and birth rates 80 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 3: reverse as well. But we also know, getting to the 81 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: second point, that the law is a teacher. In this case, 82 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 3: policy can be a teacher. And so we believe that 83 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 3: the cultural and economic trends in the United States, for example, 84 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: are more positive as it relates to marriage and birth 85 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 3: that it is in France. That if all you can 86 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 3: do with federal policy is eliminate all the disincentives to 87 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 3: marriage and birth, that you might provide a little bit 88 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 3: of a boon to both of those rates. But the 89 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: second thing that we would say, too, is that if 90 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 3: you look at examples other than France, say Hungary, Israel, 91 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 3: to some extent Singapore, there are some positive examples where 92 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 3: those expenditures on incentivizing marriage and birth have worked. 93 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: To be really honest, and we are in the paper. 94 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 3: Of course, the data is mixed in some of those cases, 95 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 3: but it's not wholly negative. And so what we're arguing is, 96 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 3: if nothing else, on almost a pilot basis, to see 97 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 3: if this one changing, this one element and government policy 98 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 3: can be helpful. 99 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: So what are some of those policy disincentives that you 100 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: talk about in the report but also that you are 101 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: seeing that you think is possibly contributing to the lower 102 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 1: marriage and birth rates here in the United States? 103 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: Well, and two big buckets in federal policy. 104 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 3: The largest of the two is safety net programs, and 105 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 3: there since the misnamed War on Poverty of the nineteen sixties, 106 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 3: we have had explicit disincentives in our federal policy in 107 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 3: order for women to receive benefits for most of that time. 108 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 3: The one exception would be the nineteen nineties when there 109 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 3: was an an excellent work requirement and marriage requirement. For 110 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 3: some of these policies we have for fifty or sixty 111 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 3: years explicitly disincentivized women with children from getting married or 112 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 3: for getting married because that would actually have a negative 113 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 3: impact on their benefits. 114 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: We believe eliminating those would be important. 115 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 3: But the second thing, and this is the new part, 116 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 3: this is the second bucket, is a couple of new 117 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 3: proposals we have. One of them is to piggyback on 118 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 3: the great idea of the Trump accounts, which have been 119 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 3: in the news over the last couple of weeks. And 120 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 3: we believe that we as a society should actually plus 121 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 3: up those Trump accounts in essence by providing additional benefits 122 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 3: twenty five hundred dollars for men and women who get 123 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 3: married by the age of thirty. And we believe that 124 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 3: if you increase the marriage rate, and you also have 125 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 3: some reversal in some of the cultural and economic trends 126 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 3: at a macro level that you can see and increase 127 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 3: in that fertility rate from one point six. There's a 128 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 3: second new idea, Nicole that I want to touch on 129 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 3: we're equally excited about this. 130 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: You and your audience may be familiar with. 131 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 3: The adoption tax credit roughly seventeen thousand dollars for the 132 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 3: excellent practice of adoption, which we want to continue and 133 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 3: expand we believe that we should expand that to include births, 134 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 3: natural births for married couples if they if they're having children, 135 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 3: and we would lower the cost in a single budget 136 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 3: year for Congress by extending that credit over three years. 137 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 3: Getting into the weeds here in terms of the policy, 138 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 3: but we have really smart people that Heritage are trying 139 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 3: to weigh all of these details, and we believe that 140 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 3: if we make these two changes in policy, that will 141 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: begin to see at least a small incremental improvement in 142 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 3: both the marriage and the birth rate. 143 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: Those are both actually very very interesting. I want to 144 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: go back to the first one, the incentives for encouraging 145 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: marriage by the age of thirty. I would imagine that 146 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: you from the critic side, you would hear, if the 147 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: incentives are encouraging earlier marriage, how do you prevent higher 148 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: divorce rates later on? And is there even data on 149 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: that whether you get married earlier later regarding tomorce. 150 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 3: There is data on that In fact, the paper looks 151 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 3: at that very thoroughly. This is one hundred and fifty 152 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 3: page paper, so we try to look at this from 153 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 3: every angle. We took three years to do the research 154 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 3: on this, which is a way of complementing my colleagues 155 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 3: for their work. But to your point, you might think 156 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 3: that there's more data which would suggest if you're incentivizing 157 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 3: people to get married and earlier, that there's going to 158 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 3: be a higher divorce rate. We actually have a lot 159 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 3: of data in the paper which would point to the opposite. 160 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 3: And so what we're not trying to do is, you know, 161 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 3: create some strange artificial incentive for people to get married 162 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 3: who shouldn't be getting married. And the reason to the 163 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 3: point that you imply in your question that we would 164 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 3: like to have earlier marriages because that's going to have 165 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 3: an increase in the birth rate given the relatively short 166 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 3: window for maternity for women. 167 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: Well, and as a physician obviously speaking, our bodies as 168 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: women were created to have babies when we are younger. 169 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: So when you actually are having older women having babies, 170 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: that's when you're starting to see higher risk of maternal 171 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: but also fetal complications. So I, for one am for 172 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: marriage and having children at younger ages, because I believe 173 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: that that's truly how biologically we are created. But here's 174 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: a question that I have for you regarding the incentive 175 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: for people to get married earlier. Is is there evidence 176 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: that delaying marriage is the problem or is it economic 177 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: instability before marriage is a problem, because we're seeing a 178 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: lot of people who are waiting to get married these days, 179 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: and there's a myriad of reasons. A lot of it 180 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: has to do with women wanting to be professionals, be 181 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: out in the workplace. Hello, I'm a full time practicing physician. 182 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: I'm one of those women. But I also think that 183 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: we are in a state of economic instability and people 184 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 1: are these women or even men too, are graduating college 185 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: and economically, you know, they're still living at home. You 186 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: see people living at home longer than ever before. So 187 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: in parallel, should we also should specifically the federal government 188 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: be working on how can we make people more economically 189 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: stable so that they are wanting to get married not 190 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: just relying on credits to get married. 191 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 3: Well one hundred percent, you know, both of those trends, 192 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 3: the cultural one you outline, and which are good things, 193 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 3: which is that women like yourself, who want to be 194 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 3: full time, in your case is a physician. Of course, 195 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 3: these are good cultural trends, but they have had an 196 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 3: impact on at least the age at which women are 197 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 3: wanting to get married, or some women at least. But 198 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 3: the economic side is really important too, And so what 199 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 3: we're saying in this paper is that while we focus 200 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 3: on some policy solutions at the federal level, and we'll 201 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 3: be releasing some subsequent papers that focus on similar state 202 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 3: level policy solutions, that if the government, as the current 203 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 3: presidential administration is doing, is also focused on all of 204 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 3: those factors that go into the affordability crisis, then that 205 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 3: is going to be an additional boon for this I 206 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 3: just want to put a real fine point on that. 207 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 3: I hear this, of course anecdotally, not just from my 208 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 3: own children, but also from the preponderance of heritage colleagues 209 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 3: who are under the age of thirty five. 210 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 2: But the data bears this out too. 211 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 3: If you look at two industries where one of these, 212 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 3: of course is really important to you, the healthcare industry, 213 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 3: where the essentially the third party payer system has artificially 214 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 3: increased costs. We have a similar phenomenon in education, especially 215 00:10:58,880 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 3: higher education. 216 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: We believe that if. 217 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 3: The Administration and Congress continue their reforms in both of 218 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 3: those obviously they've made more headway with higher education reform, 219 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: that you're beginning to eliminate some of those factors that 220 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,479 Speaker 3: go into the delaying of marriage and to the phenomenon, 221 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 3: as you said, of post graduate young people in their 222 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 3: twenties coming back home to live because they literally can't 223 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 3: afford rent. They I mean, even contemplating a mortgage is 224 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 3: completely out of the question. So that's a way of 225 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 3: saying that there are five or six or seven factors here, 226 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 3: and we're encouraging policymakers to put their hands on all 227 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 3: of those levers. Obviously on the cultural and social ones. 228 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 3: Those are in our control as individuals, and if enough 229 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 3: of us start making the same kinds of decisions, then 230 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: we're going to see those patterns reverse as well. 231 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: You're listening to Wellness and mass We'll be right back 232 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: with more. You know, you self admit that heritage foundation 233 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: you yourself are you to the right of center, And 234 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: so if we want some of these policies to not 235 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: just be adopted in piecemeal, whant are Republicans in the 236 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: White House, but to be continued to carry on, which is, 237 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: you know, what we would need for our birth rate 238 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: to go up, It has to be more bipartisan. So 239 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: for the critics who argue your proposals, you know, implicitly 240 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: favored traditional gender roles, you know, how can you you know, 241 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: make the messaging to be supporting women who both want 242 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: the careers and families without forcing a choice, because obviously 243 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: what you have. Some of the critics will say, well, 244 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 1: if you're adjust saying you know, family first, marriage first, 245 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: babies first, then you're not necessarily respecting the women who 246 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: want to be, you know, have the financial independence of 247 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: having a profession. How can we how can we frame 248 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: that messaging to get a little bit more bipartisan support. 249 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 3: It's a really important question, and I'll mention something about 250 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 3: the bipartisan nature specifically in Washington, But the real core 251 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 3: of your question about messaging so that people understand. People 252 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 3: that I not usually follow the prescriptions of a heritage 253 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 3: policy proposal would understand where we're coming from is we're 254 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 3: saying that individual choice is vitally important here for both 255 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 3: women and men. And what we're trying to do is 256 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 3: to craft a set of proposals that if men and 257 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 3: women so choose to get married and have children, that 258 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 3: there are at least policies that make that happen. In 259 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 3: no way are we suggesting that people must do that. Obviously, 260 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 3: this is not anything that we would propose. It couldn't 261 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 3: be required. But the second thing is we know from data. 262 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 3: I think about the great research that our friend Brad 263 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 3: Wilcox has done at the University of Virginia on this 264 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 3: very question, that a majority of American working women would 265 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 3: like to spend at least a little more time at 266 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 3: home with their children. And so we know that not 267 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 3: just from the standpoint of our own ethos at Heritage, 268 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 3: which would be never to foice this kind of thing 269 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 3: on anyone, but also from Americans themselves. 270 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 2: This is what they're saying. 271 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 3: Let me also say if I me and Nicole a 272 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 3: comment about the bipartisan nature of this. We are philosophically 273 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 3: right of center, but we will work at Heritage with 274 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 3: anyone anytime, any political party or you know, any political 275 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 3: movement to get work done. For example, we've have great 276 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 3: common cause with the Secretary of Health and Human Services. 277 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 3: Mister Kennedy is going to be at an event soon 278 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 3: at Heritage, but I'll also say one of our heroes 279 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 3: and sort of the person who inspired an aspect of 280 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 3: this paper is the left of center politician Daniel Patrick moynihan. 281 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 3: And we wish not only for this issue, but for 282 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 3: so many that that people there were more people like 283 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 3: mister moynihan in Congress today, where we might disagree on 284 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 3: some things, but on this matter itself, because it's civilizational 285 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 3: for the American Republic, it far transcends any kind of 286 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 3: part as an affiliation we have. 287 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I completely agree, and I love to 288 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: hear that so many people are being involved. You know, 289 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: one question that I have for you because I saw 290 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: a couple of articles about some critics in the report. 291 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: They talk about what a quote unquote good family was, 292 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: or you know, what the ideal environment for children specifically 293 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: as a married by logical mother and father household. And 294 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: so for critics saying that you're potentially excluding single parents, 295 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus families, blended families or whatever it is, you know, 296 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: what are some of the data that backs up what 297 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: was put forth in the report. 298 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of data that backs that up. 299 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 3: The first thing I'll say, though, is we're not suggesting 300 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 3: that anyone is lesser than or you know, somehow unimportant 301 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 3: in American society. We're saying that because of the data, 302 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 3: the social science data from Brad Wilcox at Virginia, my 303 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 3: friend Mark Radnres, a sociologist the University of Texas, point 304 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 3: to the ideal, and each of us, at least according 305 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 3: to my worldview, each of us is going to fall 306 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 3: short of the ideal. Right, But the ideal in terms 307 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 3: of what's best for children, Wh's healthiest for American society 308 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 3: is a family in which there are biological children, if 309 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 3: that's possible for mom and those children to be raised 310 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 3: in a stable household. In fact, Wilcox's research over the 311 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 3: last fifteen or twenty years is entirely convincing on this point. 312 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: So it's been sort of twofold for us. Of course, 313 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: as a think tank, we're. 314 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 3: Going to lean on the data, but we also want 315 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 3: to reassure Americans that we ourselves, you know, the authors 316 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 3: of this report are flawed and can't live up to 317 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 3: the ideal, but we have to recognize, because of the 318 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 3: data and because of. 319 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 2: History, especially in the United States. 320 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: That the ideal is something we can aspire to, especially 321 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 3: in federal policy. 322 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, facts matter, and that's kind 323 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: of one thing that I tried to always get to 324 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: the point when I speak. You know, this really became 325 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: evident during COVID. You talk about what you know, what 326 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: you don't know, you admit when you're wrong, But when 327 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: you're talking about some of these things, you know, very 328 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: easily you can be labeled a bigot. I mean we 329 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: saw that even with transgender ideology. For anybody who's been 330 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: speaking against the hormonal and physical mutilation of children in 331 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: the last several years, like myself, we were called names 332 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: like a bigot. And then you just saw one of 333 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: the biggest medical groups, the American Academy of Plastic Surgeons, 334 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: just come out and say, hold on, we don't think 335 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: you should be doing it. So it's important to follow 336 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: the science, follow the data, and admit when you're wrong. 337 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: And the reality is there is data or there are 338 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: data that show children in stable, married households have better 339 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: average mental and physical health outcomes. You know, that's not 340 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: conjecture that those are facts. Is marriage alone the causal 341 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: cure for all ailments of children? Of course not, but stability, 342 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: low conflict and economic security truly explain most of the benefit. 343 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: And you see that a lot in a two parent household, 344 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: you know. And so that's one of the frustrations I have, 345 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: because so easily a lot of things that you put 346 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: forth in this report are just criticized and people try 347 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: to turn them into some sort of extremism, negating the 348 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,120 Speaker 1: fact that they're built in objective data. 349 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 3: No, that's right, and I mean hats off to you 350 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 3: for your work across the board, especially starting with all 351 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 3: the COVID emphasis on truly trusting the science. 352 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: I'll add one element to this. 353 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 3: As an educator by training, I've spent a lot of 354 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 3: time educating but also working on policies, especially for economically 355 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 3: disadvantaged Americans, and across the board, and studies, you know, 356 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 3: these are studies from left of centered groups to right 357 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 3: of centered or dead in the center politically, across the board. 358 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 3: All of that research shows that this single most important attribute, 359 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 3: or the single most important factor for educational attainment, the 360 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 3: stability of the home. And this research that we're doing 361 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 3: regarding family policy now, to your point, squares with that data. 362 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 3: And so it should be a real boon for anyone 363 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 3: who wants to ask big civilizational questions that once again 364 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 3: transcend Republican and democrat. I mean, these go straight to 365 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 3: the heart of being human obviously, but also this love 366 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 3: we have for the future of this great Republic to 367 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 3: just make those decisions based on the data and put 368 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 3: some of the political noise off to the side so 369 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 3: that we can do what's best for American families and children. 370 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: So, President Trump, since entering the White House, you've seen 371 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: a boom when it comes to supporting mothers in the workplace, 372 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: and I don't think I've ever seen as many children 373 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: in the White House. But some policy things that he's done. 374 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: He's established the Trump Accounts to see long term investment 375 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: funds for our newborns. That he expanded the child tax 376 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: credits and related family tax benefits, and also signed some 377 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: orders I don't remember the details aimed at lowering IVF 378 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: costs and really just expanding access. So, you know, while 379 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: we see that there is some movement to try and 380 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: increase the birth rate here in the United States, interestingly enough, 381 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: conservative think tank is saying the answer to improving the 382 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: birth rate is more government intervention. So if you had 383 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: your mothers and you had President Trump's what are the 384 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: three things that you would say currently that the federal 385 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: government is getting wrong, not necessarily implemented by President Trump, 386 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: but just existing policies. And then what are three things 387 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: that have to be done if we want to take 388 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: the marriage and birth rate crisis seriously. 389 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 3: On the negative side of the ledger sheet, the things 390 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 3: that government's gotten wrong. And to be clear to your question, 391 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 3: I think the Trump administration is trying to fix these. 392 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 3: But number one, eliminate the disincentives to marriage that exist 393 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 3: in safety net programs. 394 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 2: There are several of those. 395 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 3: And some of those actually could probably be eliminated by 396 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 3: executive order. 397 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 2: It's better for the long term, obviously, it's legislative. 398 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 1: Can you give can you give a specific example of that? 399 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: Just for those of us who aren't. 400 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 3: Sure food stamps broadly defined and also medicate two big 401 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 3: examples not just huge drivers in the federal budget, but 402 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 3: huge drivers and human behavior by tens of millions of Americans, 403 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 3: and so addressing that which Congress has been to address. 404 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 2: But you know, we'd like to see a little more 405 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: of that reform. The second here's it. 406 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to interrupt you. Here's a quick question though, 407 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: for so right now, if you are a single parent, 408 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: you get, you know, a higher percentage than if you're married. 409 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: Is that essentially what you're saying when it comes that's correct. 410 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 3: And so if you're a single parent, While there are 411 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 3: cultural and non government economic factors that may go into 412 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 3: your decision along with individual choice, we believe federal policy 413 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 3: at least ought not to be aggravating those factors by 414 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 3: in essence paying you more to remain single. 415 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: So for the people who would say, well, what about 416 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: the woman who either their husband was tragically tragically died 417 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: or husband left them, you know, she didn't do anything wrong, 418 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: but now she finds herself single, she obviously shouldn't be 419 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: penalized to receive less. But I think maybe what needs 420 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: to happen is people who are married, you know, each 421 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: individual should receive the same amount as she would as 422 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 1: a single parent. Is that you're kind of that's proposing 423 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: exactly right. 424 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 3: We're obviously not wanting to disadvantage anyone in those tragic situations, 425 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 3: whatever they may be, But we're just saying that for 426 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 3: people eligible for those benefits who are married, the amounts 427 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 3: ought to be the same. It's actually a matter of 428 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 3: equity for them. The second thing is there are to 429 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 3: move from the federal level and the coal to the 430 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 3: state level. There are state policies that mirror federal policies 431 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 3: because of administrative rules by these relevant agencies, the Department 432 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 3: of Agriculture, which of course controls a lot of those 433 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 3: sifty NIT programs. My friend and one time colleague b Roland, 434 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 3: Secretary of Agricultures, working hard on that, but that is 435 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 3: still some work that needs to be done in spite 436 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 3: of this early success. 437 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 2: And the third thing is, which. 438 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 3: May seem esoteric for someone are unusual for someone who's 439 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: focused on hard policy. There needs to be a rhetorical 440 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 3: shift among policy makers toward elevating marriage and elevating birth. 441 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 3: We know that the law is a teacher, but also 442 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 3: the rick of our leaders can be a teacher, and 443 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 3: so we're encouraging everybody across the. 444 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: Political spectrum to do that. 445 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 3: On the positive side of the ledger, there are some 446 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 3: real opportunities, as we've talked about. Two of them, the 447 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 3: tax credit, basically additional benefits in the Trump Account for 448 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 3: men and women who get married by the age of thirty. 449 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 3: Number two, expanding the adoption tax credit to be an 450 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 3: incentive for children and your own family. And then the 451 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 3: third is this is where federalism is really important to us. 452 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 3: We believe that there ought to be federal grants that 453 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 3: are block grants to states so that they can mirror 454 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 3: those policies at the state level. I cut my teeth 455 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 3: and policy work working on state policy, and I can 456 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 3: tell you just to really remind you and your audience 457 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 3: of something. You know, the state legislatures can be a 458 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 3: lot more nimble. They're a lot closer to the problem 459 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 3: or to the opportunity. And we think that there's a 460 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 3: real opportunity here for the federal government simply to block 461 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 3: rant a lot of this money and let states once 462 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 3: again become the laboratory for figuring out this innovation and 463 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 3: family policy. 464 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: More coming up on Wellness Unmasked with doctor Nicole Sapphire. 465 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: So if five years from now, let's say the Trump 466 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,360 Speaker 1: administration adopts a lot of the you know, the proposed 467 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: policy that you're suggesting, not just Trump but the states 468 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: as well, you know what specific data point should Americans 469 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: look at and say, well, this worked, And you know, 470 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: future generations looking back at now, you know what do 471 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: you think they'll say, we actually misunderstood about families to 472 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: get us to where we are now. 473 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 3: The specific data point, if you forced us to be 474 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 3: focused on one, would be the overall fertility rate, but 475 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 3: we're really homing in on the married fertility rate. That's 476 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 3: really where we think the uh you know, in the 477 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 3: control room of American policy, we might see as early 478 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 3: as five years if by some chance, Congress were to 479 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 3: pass these policies this year, we would see that success. 480 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 3: But the other thing is, and we're really clear about 481 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 3: this in the paper, two things, if I may. The 482 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 3: first is an institutional humility by heritage that we don't 483 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 3: believe we have all the answers here. We don't believe 484 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 3: that the two policy proposals we've made are the end 485 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 3: all be all. But sort of like you said regarding 486 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 3: the COVID data, if we get five years down the 487 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 3: road and we realize, oh, actually those weren't the best 488 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 3: things to do, we'll say that. And that's what these nations, 489 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 3: Israel Hungry in particular, have done. They've adjusted along the way. 490 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 3: So I believe we'll have the humility. 491 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 2: To say that. 492 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 3: But the second thing is we wanted to start a 493 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 3: conversation and so hopefully what say in the year twenty 494 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 3: thirty one, we will realize is gosh, just as the 495 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 3: fertility rate had come down to one point five to nine, 496 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 3: we realize this isn't just something that culture and the 497 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 3: economy will control. It's something that the federal policy, federal 498 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 3: government can actually play a role in. 499 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 2: And while it might be small, it might just be 500 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 2: one of those factors, it is a factor. And if 501 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 2: we succeed in doing that, then I think. 502 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 3: We're going to be really optimistic about the future of 503 00:25:58,760 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 3: the American family. 504 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: Well, I think it would be very interesting to get 505 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: you in a room with Elon Musk, who and arguably 506 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: is one of the most brilliant humans to walk the 507 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: face of this earth. And while he has been very 508 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: focused on the birth rate, I think having fourteen children 509 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: maybe himself right. But you're saying it's not just about 510 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: increasing the birth rate having more babies. You're saying it 511 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: is about having more married babies or babies well a 512 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: product of marriage. So what would you say to Elon Musk? 513 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 1: What would your message be to him if you sat 514 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: down with him. 515 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I would look forward to that 516 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 3: conversation and that topic and many others with him. We're 517 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 3: big fans of Elon at Heritage, I would say I 518 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 3: would have reminded him, and he knows this, so you know, 519 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 3: this is just a reminder. The family is the most 520 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 3: important institution, and we're grateful. I would say to Elon, 521 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 3: we're grateful for your advocating for the birth rate. 522 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 2: And so rather than chide him for that or. 523 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 3: Make what might be mis seen as a sort of 524 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 3: moral judgment about that, we would instead say, for us 525 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 3: as a society, as a civilization, certainly for us as organization, 526 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 3: focusing first on marriage has many benefits that redound to 527 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 3: the rest of civilization, not just those of us who 528 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 3: also have the benefit of being in married families. 529 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I don't know if you know my story. 530 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: I had a son when I was very young, not married, 531 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,159 Speaker 1: but I am now happily married for about fifteen years, 532 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: and I am a huge proponent of being married having children. 533 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: I find it to be much more fulfilling economically, emotionally. 534 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: It's not ideal being a single parent, and I don't 535 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: wish that on anybody. So I am a huge supporter 536 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: of the message of marriage first and then have babies, babies, babies, 537 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:43,959 Speaker 1: because we need to get this Berth right up if 538 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: we want to continue on. Thank you so much Kevin 539 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: for coming on. I really appreciate the message, and not 540 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: just the message, but also you're not just complaining about something. 541 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: You're actually putting forth solutions which you don't really see 542 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: a lot these days. And I appreciate all the data 543 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: forward solutions that you Heritage hit. 544 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 2: The fourth well, thanks for the interview, Nicole. 545 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 3: We ad Heritage to that point, believe in being for 546 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 3: something and then explaining how we can get there. 547 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: And also just want to commend. 548 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,239 Speaker 3: You, not that you need to hear it from us, 549 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 3: but it is heartfelt for your own witness on all 550 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 3: of these matters. 551 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: God bless you for your work. 552 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. The declining birth rates, they're not 553 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: just an abstract statistic. They actually reflect real pressures on 554 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: the families, real trade offs parents are making, and real 555 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: consequences for the next generation and the following generation. So 556 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: today's conversation shows just how complex this issue is. Stability 557 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: in the household matters, it really does. Economic security also matters. 558 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: It's not black and white. It's not going to be 559 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: extremely simple to fix because we also have to hone 560 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: in on cultural matters and policy choices, whether well intentioned, 561 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: can have ripple effects far beyond what's written in paper. 562 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: I understand if you have a single mother, you want 563 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: to give her more credits, more money, anything you possible 564 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: can to support her because you know she is struggling. 565 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: But does this disincentivize someone to actually become married. I 566 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: don't actually know the answer to that, but the Heritage 567 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: Report is full of data showing that we need to 568 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: make sure that we are treating people as the individuals 569 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: and not based on their marriage status. It's an interesting 570 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: way to think about things. The challenge isn't about choosing sides. 571 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: It's choosing solutions that it will actually improve the mental, physical, 572 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: and economic health of our families, specifically our children, without 573 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: creating new harms in the process. So that's the lens 574 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: we're going to keep bringing here on Wellness Unmasks, I 575 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: like to ask hard questions, follow the data always, and 576 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: staying grounded in real world outcomes. Thank you so much 577 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: for listening to Wellness on Mass with doctor Nicole Sapphire. 578 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: I'm doctor Nicole Sapphire. Make sure to listen to Wellness 579 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: Unmasks on Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio wherever you get your podcasts 580 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: and we will see you next time.