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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome back to you need therapy. I

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Speaker 1: am your host cat and happy you guys are here.

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Speaker 1: If you're new, welcome, If you are not new, welcome back.

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Speaker 1: It is the week of Christmas, and if you are

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Speaker 1: somebody who celebrates that holiday, then you may be feeling

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Speaker 1: a lot of things. You may be stressed, you may

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Speaker 1: be excited, you may be like, wait, I'm not ready.

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Speaker 1: I know I'm one of those people who would love

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Speaker 1: this month to drag out as long as possible, because

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Speaker 1: I just like the energy comes with December. So I'm

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Speaker 1: a little bit sad when it gets to the actual holiday.

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Speaker 1: I think that also might have to do with some

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Speaker 1: of my sevendness of I like looking forward to events

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Speaker 1: a little bit more than the actual events sometimes. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: we're here. I just wanted to acknowledge that I hope

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Speaker 1: everybody is doing the best they can, which I just

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Speaker 1: assume everybody is. Anyway, when it comes to holidays in

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Speaker 1: a pandemic, you know, you thought you only have to

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Speaker 1: go through one, and we have gotten the treat of

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Speaker 1: we actually are going to get to go through all

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Speaker 1: of them. So anyway, all that to say, we have

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Speaker 1: a great episode. I have a friend and a fellow therapist, Cammy,

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Speaker 1: on to talk about shame. So Cammy is somebody I

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Speaker 1: met working a while ago at a treatment center, which

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Speaker 1: I feel like I talk about it all the time.

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Speaker 1: I promised that it's not where I meet all my friends.

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Speaker 1: So Cammy and I met at a treatment center that

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Speaker 1: we both worked in and we have kept in touch.

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Speaker 1: She is now a private practice therapist in Franklin and

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Speaker 1: she sees people virtually as well, so if you live

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Speaker 1: anywhere in Tennessee, you can see her. But she comes

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Speaker 1: on today and we talk about all the things shame.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say too much because I think

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Speaker 1: the conversation does all of the good stuff. But I

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Speaker 1: think you're going to be very surprised in the sense

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Speaker 1: that a lot of times shame is just this bad, bad, bad,

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Speaker 1: bad thing that nobody wants to touch. And if there's

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Speaker 1: some power and feeling some shame, So in this conversation

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Speaker 1: we get to talk about the difference between healthy shame

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Speaker 1: and toxic shame, how to use healthy shame, and how

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Speaker 1: to kind of move away from the toxic shame. I

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Speaker 1: am so grateful for Cammy doing this, and I think

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Speaker 1: you guys are gonna love just her heart and all

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Speaker 1: of the things that she has to say. If you

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Speaker 1: are like, wow, that girl sounds like somebody that I

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Speaker 1: can relate to. You can find her at Alongside Healing

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Speaker 1: dot com or you can find her on Instagram. We

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Speaker 1: joked about this in the episode, but can find her

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Speaker 1: on Instagram. She's recently gotten a little jolt to get

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Speaker 1: that going and moving and and you know, you guys

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Speaker 1: should follow her to give some encouragement to keep up

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Speaker 1: with that at Alongside Healing on Instagram. So I hope

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Speaker 1: you guys enjoy this. Shame is a sticky subject and

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Speaker 1: I think we should talk about it more. So I

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Speaker 1: hope you enjoy it, share it with your friends. Follow

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Speaker 1: me at at Cat dot de fata, follow the podcast

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Speaker 1: at at you Need Therapy Podcast, and don't forget. You

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Speaker 1: can always email me questions if you have any at

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Speaker 1: Catherine at you Need Therapy podcast dot com for a

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Speaker 1: chance for me to answer those on our Wednesday episodes

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Speaker 1: that are called couch Talks, where I just answer listener questions.

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Speaker 1: So I hope you guys have a wonderful week in

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Speaker 1: holiday and I will talk to you guys on Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: You have an Instagram That's right, I do, and I've

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Speaker 1: never done anything with it. I just wanted to like

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Speaker 1: grab it, but I gotta get on it. Greg is

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Speaker 1: so questioned, right, So there's gonna we're gonna start with

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Speaker 1: that because the fun fact of Cammy our guest today, hi,

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Speaker 1: is that Jammy is my friend and I met her.

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Speaker 1: This is so I mean, I don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: getting annoying to people, but I'm like, I met this

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Speaker 1: person at the ranch like everybody, Um, it's a ranching

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Speaker 1: cycle bar. But now your husband literally helps me run

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Speaker 1: my life to you in my life as well. And

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Speaker 1: I was just looking at this and saying that you

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Speaker 1: don't have an you have an Instagram handle, but you

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Speaker 1: just let it sit there in the interwebs. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: so before we get started on just let it sit

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Speaker 1: there and people keep joining. That's what's hilarious. I'm like, folks,

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Speaker 1: there's no girls smart like an anticipation. But okay, so

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Speaker 1: we'll plug your Instagram handle if somebody wants to give

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Speaker 1: you a follow, but since you don't or you're not

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Speaker 1: currently putting content there, and this is gonna inspire me. Okay,

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Speaker 1: good Okay, great, I love that. So she's gonna if

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Speaker 1: you guys follow her, she'll start giving you some content.

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Speaker 1: So where can people fall like find you other than Instagram? Well?

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Speaker 1: Can you shout out your website which is beautiful. I've

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Speaker 1: all practice in Franklin, Tennessee. UM called alongside Heeling, and

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Speaker 1: I see adults only it's just eighteen and up. You'll

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Speaker 1: see as young as eighteen up to eighteen and up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and mostly women. Um, that really is the population I'm

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Speaker 1: most passionate about and I have the most experience with. Well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and your website is beautiful alongside Healing dot com. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's beautiful. And what would you say you specialize in

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Speaker 1: for therapy? How would you describe yourself? I think a

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Speaker 1: few think like I said, I love working with women. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's mostly been my experience in my profession is working

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Speaker 1: with women. Definitely with trauma. Um. I love depression and

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Speaker 1: anxiety stuff. I think that's at the root of so

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Speaker 1: many of our issues, especially right now. And I love

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Speaker 1: getting down in the trenches of depression and anxiety with people.

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Speaker 1: You know. Definitely, exploring like what we call family of

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Speaker 1: origin stuff, like, man, why is Christmas always so hard

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Speaker 1: for me, and why does it trigger this stuff with

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Speaker 1: my with my mom or you know, my siblings. I

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Speaker 1: love looking at that stuff. I love putting like puzzle

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Speaker 1: pieces together essentially and figuring out the root of stuff

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Speaker 1: and then knowing that just because it is a route,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that it's there forever. You know, like

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Speaker 1: we can go in and do work around that root,

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Speaker 1: and there's hope in a change in that Wait. I

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Speaker 1: like that just because it's a route doesn't mean it

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Speaker 1: has to be there forever. I don't think I've heard

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Speaker 1: some say got in those words. Okay, So I will say,

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Speaker 1: if you live in Tennessee and you're looking for a therapist,

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Speaker 1: I've sent you many of my friends I feel like,

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Speaker 1: haven't I Yeah, they all love you, so okay, great,

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Speaker 1: they're probably listening like, yes, she likes me. It's so

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Speaker 1: funny because I feel like, and I know this experience

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Speaker 1: as being a client. You want your therapist to like you,

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Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely right. But there we're not going to be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're I look forward. We're not going to give them that.

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Speaker 1: So it's always just a mystery in the back of

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Speaker 1: our heads. So now you guys know she enjoys you.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna talk specifically. I want we're going to

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Speaker 1: go into the trenches of what shame is. So we'll

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Speaker 1: go all over the place with that and tell stories

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Speaker 1: and explain different parts of it. Now, I want to

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Speaker 1: know for you, when did shame because I don't know

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Speaker 1: I'm making this up, but like, nobody talked about it

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Speaker 1: in school, nobody talked about it in general. I know

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Speaker 1: I've heard the word before, but for me, it's now

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Speaker 1: become something. And I don't know if it's because I'm

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Speaker 1: a therapist, but again, I don't think we talked a

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Speaker 1: lot about it in school, but it's become something that

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Speaker 1: we speak about often. Now. Is that Have you found

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Speaker 1: that experience too? It's become more not trendy, but like

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Speaker 1: it's now out there it is. And I think that

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Speaker 1: we have Renny Brown to think for that, because she

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Speaker 1: is such a powerhouse and her research and her books

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Speaker 1: and her talks and her podcast, she's a very very

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Speaker 1: trustworthy source around this particular topic. And she has given

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Speaker 1: language to it. She has brought empathy to it, she's

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Speaker 1: brought understanding to it, and we all are like, yes,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, that is absolutely what I have been

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Speaker 1: facing and why I can't seem to shake it, and

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Speaker 1: you know, how it shows up in my relationship ups

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Speaker 1: and how it shows up in my day to day life.

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Speaker 1: And so I think she's a big part of it.

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Speaker 1: And then now we all are like, well, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: makes sense, so let's take to me. It feels like

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Speaker 1: now that we're aware of it, it's kind of like

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Speaker 1: I don't know when addiction first was discovered and it

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Speaker 1: was called addiction, but I imagine when that happened it

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Speaker 1: was like like wow, And it's kind of like that,

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Speaker 1: I think for shame, and we're all realizing just how

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Speaker 1: much it kind of is like kind of like an

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Speaker 1: epidemic at least in our culture. I can't speak to

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Speaker 1: other cultures, but in the United States, holy cow, is

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Speaker 1: it rereaking havoc in our lives. Well, that's one thing

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about is in the Hind States.

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Speaker 1: Why that is. But before we go there, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about what it is and define it. And Burnee Brown

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Speaker 1: has done a really great job of being able to

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Speaker 1: describe it and put it in not a box, but

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Speaker 1: put it in a way where we have language for it.

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Speaker 1: And so I want to first start with, like what

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Speaker 1: is shame in your words? And then we can use

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Speaker 1: I I pulled the definition that Burnet uses, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you would describe it differently. But for you,

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Speaker 1: when you're expressing and your teaching and you're kind of

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Speaker 1: doing your thing, how would you describe what this feeling is? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: shame can be a little bit tricky to define. And

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Speaker 1: that's why I think so many of us are grateful

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Speaker 1: for Burnet Brown's work in it is because she's articulated

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Speaker 1: in such a concise and digestible way. But as I

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Speaker 1: have really done my own work personally and professionally and shame,

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Speaker 1: what I'm coming to find is that there's two kinds

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Speaker 1: of shame. There's there is healthy shame, and then there's

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Speaker 1: what we call toxic shame. So, first off, healthy shame

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Speaker 1: that really connects me with my conscience and my humility.

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Speaker 1: You know, it lets me know, um, I've hurt myself,

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Speaker 1: I've heard others. Healthy shame alerts me to empathy and

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Speaker 1: compassion also for myself and others. It lets me know

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Speaker 1: that I've failed while I've made a mistake, and maybe

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Speaker 1: I need to make some changes. I must stop you can.

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Speaker 1: I stop you because you said it lets me know

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Speaker 1: that I failed. A lot of people don't want to

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Speaker 1: know that. But so why would it be helpful to

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Speaker 1: recognize that I have failed at something? Well? Because I

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Speaker 1: think you know, this is when shame is not just

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Speaker 1: like oh easy, breezy, I can just sit in it

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Speaker 1: for ten seconds and have it all figured out, Like

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Speaker 1: I have to sit and I'm trying to think of

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Speaker 1: an example of like a maybe a failure. Maybe I

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Speaker 1: have started a business, maybe I've gone into a relationship.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it was a school project that I failed, and

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Speaker 1: maybe I did all the right things in it. I

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Speaker 1: did all the right things, I did everything within my

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Speaker 1: control and my power, and it's still failed. The healthy

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Speaker 1: side of shame lets me have compassion towards myself. It

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Speaker 1: lets me have empathy towards myself. It come communicates. This

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Speaker 1: is from Chip DoD, who also has spoken a lot

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Speaker 1: about emotions and shame, and he says that shame lets

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Speaker 1: us know I'm limited and I'm gifted. That gives freedom,

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Speaker 1: you guys, I think so often we're like we don't

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Speaker 1: have to be perfect, and we're like, Okay, I don't

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Speaker 1: have to be perfect, But perfection, and coming out of

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Speaker 1: perfection is an acceptance that I'm limited. I don't have

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Speaker 1: all the answers. I am needy. We don't like that word.

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Speaker 1: We don't like that word in the United States, But

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Speaker 1: don't needy. I'm powerless. I'm limited, I don't have all

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Speaker 1: the answers. I'm not God. And so because of that,

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Speaker 1: I can step into my failure. Look at what went wrong?

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Speaker 1: Did I make mistakes? Did I do everything within my

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Speaker 1: power and my control? And say, oh my gosh. And

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Speaker 1: now I move through that pain in a healthy way,

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Speaker 1: and I reach out to others. I reach out to God,

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Speaker 1: whoever you know your higher power is. And in those

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Speaker 1: spaces I still belong because that then takes us into

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Speaker 1: toxic shame. And toxic shame is a whole another ball game.

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Speaker 1: And toxic shame strips us of belonging, It strips us

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Speaker 1: of connection, and it's all lies. It feels so true

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Speaker 1: to us. But that toxic shame, oh man, is it

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Speaker 1: so much self rejection. It's I'm flawed in some way.

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Speaker 1: And because of that, if I'm flawed in this way,

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Speaker 1: then you're gonna pull connection from me. You're gonna pull

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Speaker 1: away a little bit, you'll you'll reject me in some way.

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Speaker 1: I won't have the same worth that I have as

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Speaker 1: if I looked this way or did this thing. And

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Speaker 1: that is frightening for us as human beings. Rightening because

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Speaker 1: at our core we want to belong right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's that's so. Yeah, there's two things that I want

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Speaker 1: to pull out of that. There's like four things I

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Speaker 1: want to pull out of that work it starts. One

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Speaker 1: is the humility part. That's one of my favorite things

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Speaker 1: to talk about when it comes to the healthy side

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Speaker 1: of shame. If we don't have shame, then to me,

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Speaker 1: it's like we're just going to be this big, bad

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Speaker 1: narcissist walking around the world thinking that we are God right.

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Speaker 1: So the example one of my friends used to always

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Speaker 1: give is shame makes us feel weird if we were

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Speaker 1: to walk out of the house naked, like it helps

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Speaker 1: us keep in line with like who we are. So

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Speaker 1: I like the idea that shame can be used as

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Speaker 1: a helpful source for us to stay in line with

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Speaker 1: our human nous. Yeah, I definitely want to talk about

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Speaker 1: the differences between guilt and shame and that, But also

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Speaker 1: what did you say about what did you say chip

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Speaker 1: DoD that thing that you just said about chip Dot.

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Speaker 1: He explains shame as and it's really the essence of

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Speaker 1: humility that it lets me know that I'm limited and

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Speaker 1: I'm gifted. So if I just lived in my giftedness,

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Speaker 1: which we love to do. We love to just sit

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Speaker 1: there and think of all the ways that we're awesome

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Speaker 1: and all the ways that we can help people and

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Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. But no, I also have

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Speaker 1: to come into this acceptance that I'm limited in some ways.

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Speaker 1: Like with my husband and I we joke around that

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Speaker 1: I'm not great at math, like I'm very, very limited,

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Speaker 1: and so with our sun when we come into that phase,

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Speaker 1: that's when I know I've got a bow out. When

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Speaker 1: the math homework comes along, I got a bow out

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Speaker 1: because I'm limited in that way. Does that make me

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Speaker 1: a crappy human being or a crappy parent. No, that

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Speaker 1: just means that I get to move out of the

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Speaker 1: way and I get to watch something really cool happen

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Speaker 1: between Greg and Graham, and then it bounces us out

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Speaker 1: because I'm really great at other things and Greg is

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Speaker 1: limited in that way. Does that make Chemo crappy parents? No,

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Speaker 1: it just we didn't get to shine and share how

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Speaker 1: we've been wired with other people. But again we have

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Speaker 1: to step into it and just be like, oh man,

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Speaker 1: like I'm limited in this way. That's not an indictment

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Speaker 1: that we're a horrible human. It just is like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm limited in that way. I don't have all the answers.

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Speaker 1: Now where do I go for it? Two things in

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Speaker 1: that one, it allows and we're a getting we're talking

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Speaker 1: about healthy shame and then we'll move into the toxic part.

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Speaker 1: But when we have this healthy amount of shame, it

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Speaker 1: opens up space to be connected to other people because

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Speaker 1: it forces you to ask for help because if I'm limited,

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Speaker 1: then I need other people, which is what you're you

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Speaker 1: were saying earlier about we were created to need. So

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Speaker 1: if we don't have shame and we don't have humility,

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Speaker 1: we don't need people. We don't have space to belong

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Speaker 1: because we're gonna be on an island by ourselves doing

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Speaker 1: all the math, all the science, all the are are,

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Speaker 1: all the reading. We're gonna do everything by ourselves, and

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Speaker 1: so it allows us to need people and connect and

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Speaker 1: it allows people to connect to us because I know

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Speaker 1: for me it feels really good for somebody to even

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Speaker 1: ask me to come fill a space for them, and

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Speaker 1: when they ask for help, I'm like, oh wow, I

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Speaker 1: feel connected to you because you're asking me to come

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Speaker 1: in and and be a part of this with you.

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Speaker 1: I don't feel connected. If somebody's like, no, I got it,

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Speaker 1: I got it, I got It's like, well where do

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Speaker 1: I go? I guess I'm gonna go sit in the

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Speaker 1: corner by myself. Absolutely, it does. It brings my vulnerability.

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Speaker 1: When I step into my vulnerability in the healthy shame as,

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Speaker 1: it draws people closer to me and we build trust, intimacy, empathy, support.

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Speaker 1: Because when I'm in toxic shame and when something does

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Speaker 1: say oh goodness, Cammy, you are in a dark, dark place,

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Speaker 1: like you need to go find your people, then I

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Speaker 1: can step into that and I can start to breathe

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Speaker 1: and I can be like, Okay, I'm not as awful

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Speaker 1: as what this created in my mind is telling me

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Speaker 1: that I am. Okay, So let's I want to move

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Speaker 1: and talk about because I love talking about healthy shame,

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Speaker 1: but I want to talk about what toxic shame is

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Speaker 1: and dig into that. I do want to read what

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Speaker 1: Burnet Brown defines it as, and I love that you're

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Speaker 1: talking about Chip Dot you. I'm assuming you've read Voice

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Speaker 1: of the Heart. Yes, I literally just finished yesterday. I

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Speaker 1: think it was my seventh time reading that book, and

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Speaker 1: I just finished doing a group with it. I did

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Speaker 1: a whole group around the book, and it was so powerful,

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Speaker 1: even for me the facilitator. It always is because it's

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Speaker 1: just powerful content. Yeah. Well, I wanted to say that

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Speaker 1: because if anybody wants to learn more about just feelings

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Speaker 1: in general, that book is awesome and it's shure. It's

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Speaker 1: you can read it in a week really, if you

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Speaker 1: sit down with it, probably faster than that. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: Burnet Brown and if you guys don't know who she is,

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Speaker 1: you got to come out out of under come under

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Speaker 1: the rock. It's good promise. She blew up and like

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Speaker 1: I guess it probably was around like two twelve area

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Speaker 1: from her Ted talks. And she's a shame researcher. Most

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Speaker 1: of you are like, yeah, yeah, we get it, get

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Speaker 1: to the definition. But if you don't know she is,

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Speaker 1: she researched his shame and vulnerability. I feel like she's

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Speaker 1: like Oprah's best friend at this point. She's amazing. So

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Speaker 1: she defines it as the feeling that we are unworthy

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Speaker 1: of love and belonging. And it's really simple. I think

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Speaker 1: that's easy to grasp and it's oh okay. So when

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm unworthy of being connected to humans,

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Speaker 1: that's when I know I'm in a shame spiral. Now

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Speaker 1: I want you to can you describe maybe two ways,

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Speaker 1: One what it feels like to have toxic shame, and

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Speaker 1: maybe how you spot it as a therapist, how you

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Speaker 1: spot it inclines, How do you know like, oh gosh,

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Speaker 1: we gotta, we gotta dig you up out of this shame?

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Speaker 1: Is we don't like it? I will say that we

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Speaker 1: don't like it. I don't think I've encountered any human

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Speaker 1: being that's like, oh this is awesome, even healthy shame,

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Speaker 1: even healthy shame. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think that's a

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Speaker 1: really great point. But there's a heaviness to shame, toxic

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Speaker 1: shame especially UM. I think a lot of people will

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Speaker 1: use words like I'm drowning, I'm paralyzed, I feel stuck,

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Speaker 1: I'm suffocating. It's consuming. I can't get it to stop. Um.

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Speaker 1: It feels like I'm like on this like hamster wheel,

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Speaker 1: and I just can't. I can't get the hamster wheel

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Speaker 1: to stop. So I feel like there's a heaviness to

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Speaker 1: it and it is brutal. A lot of times I

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Speaker 1: will check in with my clients and I will say

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Speaker 1: things like, you know, I'm curious if the things that

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Speaker 1: you're saying right now would you ever say those to

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Speaker 1: the person your closest to, or would you say these

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Speaker 1: things to a small child? And they're like, well, absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, okay, bingo, that's toxic shame because it

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Speaker 1: is so harsh and it is, like I said, there's

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Speaker 1: a brutality to it. And yet even in the harshness

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Speaker 1: and brutality of it, we all do it like you

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Speaker 1: can't escape toxic shame. It's like we just can't. It's

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Speaker 1: going to happen to us. Well, why do you think

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Speaker 1: that we Because I think that shame can be somewhat addicting,

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Speaker 1: and and when we're when we're the one in it,

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Speaker 1: it's it's hard to hear the outside voices that are

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Speaker 1: saying like what, no, that's not true. But why do

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Speaker 1: you think that we get so stuck in it? Because

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Speaker 1: we don't like it it, we don't like what it

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Speaker 1: feels like. But then we just allowed. We don't allow ourselves,

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Speaker 1: but we get like rooted, like used earlier, we get

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Speaker 1: rooted in it. And so, what do you think is

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Speaker 1: attractive And this might sound weird to some people, what

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Speaker 1: do you think is attractive about sitting in a toxic

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Speaker 1: shame spiral? Yeah? I think for so many of us,

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Speaker 1: we learned those toxic shame messages. And typically I'd say

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Speaker 1: the majority of us have four or five six constant

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Speaker 1: messages that just always ring in our ears. And we

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Speaker 1: have known those messages since we were little four or

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Speaker 1: five six, and so it feels frightening to be without

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Speaker 1: those messages, even though we know they're yucky messages. It

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Speaker 1: feels like, well, this is all I've known. But the

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Speaker 1: other thing is is I'll use a personal example. So

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Speaker 1: for me, I learned from a really young age it

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Speaker 1: was praised in me that I was so independent. I

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Speaker 1: mean that was just praised by everybody around me, not

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Speaker 1: just my my parents, but teachers, people at church, people

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Speaker 1: in the community, babysitters, you name it. They affirmed that

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Speaker 1: in me that I was independent. But what that communicated

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Speaker 1: to me is, okay, Cammy, whenever you need help, whenever

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Speaker 1: you're helpless, whenever you're powerless, whenever you are needy, and

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Speaker 1: I mean that in a good way. Needy. You got

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Speaker 1: to somehow figure that out on your own because you've

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Speaker 1: been praised for your independence. It it offered me counterfeit,

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Speaker 1: It was all counterfeit, but it offered me. It met

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Speaker 1: my needs in some you know, not great way. And

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Speaker 1: so now, even as I'm approaching thirty eight, I still

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Speaker 1: have to sit with myself and be like, why why

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Speaker 1: am I struggling to reach out for help? Oh, it's

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Speaker 1: because I'm believing those lies that I have known since

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Speaker 1: I was four or five six years old, and that

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Speaker 1: I have trusted to be the truth. That you're good

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Speaker 1: if you do it on your own, you're good. If

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Speaker 1: you're independent. You're not so good if you do reach

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Speaker 1: out and ask for help, Like, there's something wrong with

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Speaker 1: you if you do that. So it's black and whiteness

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Speaker 1: of I'm good, if I do, I'm bad if I like.

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Speaker 1: That's the black and white part, which, tying back into

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Speaker 1: what you were saying about I'm limited and I'm gifted,

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Speaker 1: is to really live in your humanness, you have to

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Speaker 1: have both. And so, yeah, you're great, and sometimes you're

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Speaker 1: not that's a So that's a great I think that's

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Speaker 1: an example that I think a lot of people are

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Speaker 1: gonna be able to relate to. I wonder, though, how

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Speaker 1: were you able to pull yourself out of that? Like,

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Speaker 1: how were you able to fight that messaging? Because you're right,

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Speaker 1: like the messages that we cling onto that we learn

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Speaker 1: from the world as as a kid and an adolescent,

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Speaker 1: as we grow up, they're solidified. They might not feel good,

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Speaker 1: but they feel comfortable and comfortable it feels good right right,

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Speaker 1: you know. I think for me it it had to

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Speaker 1: be me hitting some rock bottoms. You know. I went

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Speaker 1: through a very very dark depression. Let's see, I think

427
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: about twelve thirteen years ago. It was a very very

428
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: dark depression. And thankfully, in my rock bottom nous I

429
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,199
Speaker 1: reached out to a therapist and I reached out to

430
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: a couple of friends and they could hear the darkness

431
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: and what I was saying, and so because of that,

432
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: they then were able to reflect support and say Cammy,

433
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: like something's got to give here. We care about you way, way,

434
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: way too much. And so then once I started to

435
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 1: actually talk about it and to admit my powerlessness and

436
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: to admit my helplessness and my depression. Then it all

437
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: started to make sense for me and I was able

438
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 1: to piece together how stories from five years old were

439
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: still charging at me in my depression, and I just

440
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: was like, oh my gosh. And so now again, I

441
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: think that was maybe twelve thirteen years ago. Are now

442
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 1: through a lot of work for a while work, you know,

443
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: I'm able to quicker identify it. You know, even before

444
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 1: this podcast, I was feeling nervous and I hesitated to

445
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: reach out to a couple of friends and just say,

446
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: you get ready this podcast. A little nervous about it,

447
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: you know, will you pray for me? That's all I asked,

448
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: or I wanted to ask. And I could feel the

449
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 1: hesitation be like, don't do that. You're fine, it's not

450
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 1: the big of a deal. Cammy and I did it anyways,

451
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: And then they reached out and it was no big deal.

452
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: They offered me support in that moment, they offered me encouragement,

453
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 1: bing bang bam, we're done. We've moved through it. And

454
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: so again twelve thirteen years ago, Oh my gosh, it

455
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: was like moving through sludge. You know. Yeah, well, and

456
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: you know you know this obviously, but shame feeds off

457
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: of silence. That's like the number one like food that

458
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: it loves to gobble up, and so a hundred percent

459
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: and even why didn't that? I think what Burne says

460
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: is it feeds, It feeds off of secrecy, silence, and

461
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: then judgment. And you're talking about Okay, I'm not going

462
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: to keep my shame ass secret because so many of us,

463
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: And I don't think it's on purpose. I think it's

464
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: just because we're maybe taught like, don't talk about your stuff,

465
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 1: but or like again, nobody wants to hear that, or

466
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: that means if you're struggling, that means something's wrong with you.

467
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: But I think so many of us keep those stories

468
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 1: hidden inside of us only for us to feel and

469
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 1: by doing that, you're setting yourself the message that that

470
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,239
Speaker 1: is a bad thing. And then the only thing that

471
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: can happen there is it gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

472
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 1: You can't have like a truth teller come in and

473
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 1: help sort that out if you're not talking about it exactly,

474
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: because you can't in the beginning stages of you exploring

475
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: your toxic shame. I think it is impossible for you

476
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: to be a truth teller in your life. It has

477
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: to be somebody else, something greater than yourself, another human

478
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: being to be like, oh my goodness, like cat like

479
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: come come out of that. No, that's not the case.

480
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: You screwed off, but that's okay, Like you're human and

481
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: you're screwing up, like that's okay. Yeah, And I think

482
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: I'm even getting ahead of myself with this. But the

483
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: idea of reality checking, so right there, what you just

484
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: said is like, that's like speaking my stuff to somebody else,

485
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: and somebody else with a clear mind that can really

486
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: have a three sixty look at what's going on, can

487
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: say like, oh, actually, you're living in a false reality

488
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: over there exactly. So let's let's check the facts here

489
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: and let's actually go through what actually factually is telling

490
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: us that you're a bad person, or you're not good enough,

491
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: or you that you do not belong. Most of the

492
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: time too, we can come up with reasons, but they're

493
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: just our own judgments. They're not real experiences that we

494
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: have data of. It's just our perception of the data.

495
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: And remember, like with any feeling, with any feeling, just

496
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: because it's a feeling and I'm I'm experiencing it, it

497
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's a fact. It's in formation for me

498
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: and information is important, but it does not mean that

499
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: it is a fact just because I failed an exam.

500
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: The if my toxic shame is telling me you are

501
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: an idiot, you are so stupid, No, that's not that's

502
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: not accurate. What it may mean is I had a

503
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: really good time at that party last night and I

504
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 1: didn't study, or this is a very very difficult class

505
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: for me. But it doesn't mean you're dumb or stupid.

506
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: It just means that you're a human being who either

507
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: didn't make great choices in that moment. It may mean

508
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: that's just not your thing. Um, it just means you

509
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 1: may have had a bad day on the test. Like

510
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: it could be a thousand things. But just because I'm

511
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: feeling something, it isn't a fact. It's just information and

512
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 1: we just need to listen to it. That's it. Just

513
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: listen to the feeling. Yeah, I'll be curious. So how

514
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: do you separate Because in back in the day when

515
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: there was just shame, there wasn't healthy shame, and there

516
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: was toxic shame. In the beginning of this, it was

517
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: just shame. It was really easy for us to separate

518
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 1: shame and guilt. Shame was the feeling that I am

519
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 1: bad and I am wrong, I am not good enough,

520
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: and guilt was the feeling I did something bad, I

521
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: did something wrong, and it really it separated the human

522
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,959
Speaker 1: from the behavior. Do you have a way that you

523
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: describe the difference between them now that is any different

524
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: than that. I don't because I still think that stands

525
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: the test of time, that guilt is a behavior thing.

526
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: It lets me know I've acted again, there's that behavior,

527
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: but I've acted outside of my values my ethics, and

528
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: so because of that, because I've acted outside of my

529
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: values or my ethics, I need to go make amends.

530
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: I need to go seek reconciliation. Where a shame, it

531
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: still feels like it very much is an identity. It's

532
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: a self thing, which is why most times when people

533
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,239
Speaker 1: are in toxic shame, it's an I am statement like

534
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: I am on again, versus guilt is I did or

535
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: like I've done something. It's great for people because I

536
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: think that some people just combine them into like, oh

537
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: it's all it's all toxic shame. But like healthy shame,

538
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: guilt is just a really great, great tool because for

539
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: me when I feel guilt about something, I'm like, I

540
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: will say I can't believe I did that, Like that's

541
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: I can't believe I said that, And that's good because

542
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: that's telling me that I have a moral compass, right,

543
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: So I do think that's a really important thing for

544
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: people to look at so they're not combining a behavior

545
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: turning them into a horrible human. I mess up all

546
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: the time, all of the time, and those are behavior

547
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: I continue to work on. But that doesn't mean that's

548
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: who I am. Unless I don't have guilt about it,

549
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: then I then I mean, that's a whole another story.

550
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: If I do horrible things all the time and don't

551
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: have guilt, that's not I mean, I'm just glad that's

552
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: not the case. If you move through your guilt and

553
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: you are able to reckon style, you know, with somebody

554
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: or even reconcile with yourself through something and make amends

555
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: and you still can't shake it, that's likely a cue

556
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: that you've got some toxic shame there. When it's just like, man,

557
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: I can't have moved through this. I've reconciled with that person.

558
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: Why can't I move through this? Then there's likely some

559
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: toxic shame there, and we've got to work to like

560
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: figure out like what that is and move through that.

561
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: Going back to the beginning, we're going to focus on

562
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: our culture because we're in our culture, we are a

563
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: shame based culture al those fields, Like I feel like

564
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: that's right to say. Why do you think that feel?

565
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: I agree? I think it's just so much of like

566
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: this belief system that we have in America. You know,

567
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: I feel like we always hear that like term like

568
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: pull yourself up by your bootstraps, but it's also like

569
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: try harder, do more. It's not enough. Like it's just

570
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: so performance based in the United States, and I think

571
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: that toxic shame loves that. I think it loves performance

572
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: stuff in our performance. When I'm doing doing doing, I'm

573
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: doing doing doing because I'm scared if I don't do it,

574
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: if I'm not enough, then again I'm scared you're gonna

575
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: pull connection. I won't be long. And so it's just like,

576
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: oh man, we just keep going and going and going,

577
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: and we act like we've got it all together. And

578
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: social media does that, and other forms of media does that.

579
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: Our families are friends, churches, synagogues, like workplaces, you name it.

580
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: We like it just feeds into it everywhere, and so

581
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: it's a huge cultural component. And so that's a reason

582
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: to offer yourself empathy, you know, like that's a reason

583
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: in itself to be like, oh, yep, there I did

584
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: it again. How could I not? I'm surrounded by it,

585
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: and so how can I offer myself so self compassion

586
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: and that's my moment and to be like, well, oh

587
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: my gosh, yeah, it's it's everywhere. How can I not

588
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 1: want to overperform and just achieve, achieve and do and

589
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: do and do. So I feel like I've been talking

590
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: about this in every podcast lately, is the you're describing

591
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: the hustle culture of we gotta do and perform and show.

592
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: And I think that there is a wonderful and helpful

593
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: part of hustling and working hard. And I think there's

594
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: also a wonderful and healthy side of resting and accepting

595
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: our limitations. And America doesn't doesn't perpetuate both. It just

596
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: perpetuates like almost like the American dream has turned into

597
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: like go go go do do do, perform, perform, perform,

598
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: show up, show up, show up, look good, look good,

599
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: look good. And so I think, shame what I'm hearing

600
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: in a lot of what you're saying is shame fits

601
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: so well in our culture because we are in the

602
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: midst of hustle culture and we need to invite I

603
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: like the hustle culture because how we get some of

604
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: the things that we get done. And I'm all for

605
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: working hard, but I'm also all for that other flip

606
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: side of we have limitations, and sometimes we can't meet

607
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: the deadline, and sometimes we don't have the perfect outfit

608
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: on and sometimes that like I mean, I could go

609
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: on forever on that you said, That's that's a perfect

610
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: time to offer an empathy. Why I want you to

611
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: talk about why is empathy and compassion so necessary when

612
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: it comes to battling toxic shame, Because it's the anecdote

613
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: to it is the complete opposite of it. Again, if

614
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: I use that example of what I talk the same

615
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: way that I'm talking to myself. Would I say that

616
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: to my child? Would I say that to you? Would

617
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: I say that to my best friend? Heck no, Like

618
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,479
Speaker 1: I wouldn't utter those words. That would be abusive. If

619
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: if we're really honest, the things that we say to

620
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: ourselves in our toxic shame is downright abusive. And so

621
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: if I can give that, I want to pause you. Sorry,

622
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: I want to pause you because that is important to say. Again,

623
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: the things that we say and are toxic shame are

624
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: straight up abusive. I don't think I highlighted that well

625
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 1: enough when you said it the first time earlier, because

626
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: would you ever say that to somebody you love? No? Why?

627
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: Because it is horrible. I think that is so important

628
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: to just flat out like highlight toxic shames, an abusive

629
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: relationship with yourself, if we're really honest, when I do

630
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: step into my humanness and I do say really hurtful

631
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: things to my child, to my spouse, to my best friend,

632
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 1: whoever it is, when I do say those hurtful things,

633
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: I immediately go, WHOA, that's not okay, and I in

634
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: my guilt and my healthy guilt and my healthy shame,

635
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 1: and it says, oh boy, we gotta fix that. But again,

636
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: we don't even do that with ourselves. Rarely do I

637
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: go back to myself and say, oh, Cammy, the way

638
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: that I spoke to you was abusive, and that's not okay.

639
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: The things that I have said about your body, about

640
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: you as a therapist, you as a mother, like that

641
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: was so hurtful and abusive. That's powerful, right If I

642
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: if I go and reconcile that with my friend, it

643
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: means I like leaving to do that with myself. I've

644
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: got to make amends with me the things I've said

645
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, and I think that people forget that

646
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 1: you have a relationship with yourself, like you aren't just

647
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 1: like floating around this. Can you have a relationship with yourself?

648
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 1: And the other thing to add in there is, and

649
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure this is some quote probably reposted somewhere on Instagram,

650
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: but you cannot hate yourself into loving yourself. And so

651
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: the idea of what shame tells us, it's like, if

652
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: we beat ourselves up enough, we're going to get our

653
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: ship together and we're going to show up as like

654
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: the people we should be. And it's like, actually no,

655
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: because then you just have a very wounded human inside

656
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: of you screaming for help that you're not helping. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

657
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 1: And that's why empathy and self compassion are so valuable

658
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: to offer to ourselves if we're willing to just give

659
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,879
Speaker 1: it out so freely to everybody else, like oh man,

660
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: like if we give a fraction, just a fraction, of

661
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: it to ourselves. How much kinder we would be, how

662
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: much healthier in all realms we would be? Um, I

663
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: think we would have more fulfilling relationships, all of that stuff.

664
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: How do you do How do you do that? Though?

665
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: What is for somebody who's like what? Because we work

666
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: in this so it feels like second nature. What does

667
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: empathy sound like? And how would you encourage somebody to

668
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: offer that? What would they do to do that? I

669
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: think one of the easiest ways, and this is such

670
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: a trick that all the good therapist love is to

671
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: honestly talk to yourself like you would talk to a

672
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: loved one. What would that sound like if they are

673
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: coming to you with the exact same issue, all the

674
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: circumstances are exactly the same. What is it that you

675
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: would say to the loved one to that particular issue

676
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 1: that you're going through? And then when you hear and say, okay,

677
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: well I would likely tell Jim, then you offer that

678
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: to yourself. Now, please understand, this is none of this

679
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:18,959
Speaker 1: is going to be like a magic pill, and it's

680
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: just like proof shame is just gonna disappear. Toxic shame

681
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: is deeply rooted, and so it's it's gonna take time

682
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: and willingness and work to uproot those. But that's a

683
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: starting point, you know, a starting point. Another starting point

684
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 1: is you've got to talk about it. You've got to

685
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: talk about it with other people so they can start

686
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: to to give you nuggets of empathy and nuggets of compassion.

687
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: And you're like, okay, well, if Catherine was able to

688
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: let me know, like an example of we're exhausted of

689
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: COVID at this point, we all are, and I am

690
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: so tired, and in my mind, I'm freaking out and

691
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh gosh, I'm so overly exhausted. Does this

692
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 1: mean I have COVID? Does this mean my depression is back?

693
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: And maybe I talk to you when you're like, Cammy,

694
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: we're in month ten of a pandemic with no no

695
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: information about when it's going to stop, and so maybe

696
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: might you be tired because you're living in uncertainty for

697
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: ten months? Every single day it's just uncertain and just

698
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,479
Speaker 1: that I'm like I can breathe just a little bit

699
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: in that it doesn't feel so stuck and heavy, and

700
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, yeah, maybe maybe that is the case.

701
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: Maybe I have been at this for ten months, and

702
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: I'm tired of masks, and I'm tired of so much

703
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: freaking hand sanitizer, and I'm tired of precautions. And I'm

704
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: still gonna do it all, so all the haters don't

705
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: have to write in I'm gonna do all the things.

706
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, I am tired. That's my reality. I can

707
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: offer myself compassion in my reality. My reality is is

708
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: that I am tired. I am and maybe maybe I

709
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 1: do need to look into if I am depressed. Maybe

710
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,240
Speaker 1: I do need to see my doctor about that. Maybe

711
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 1: I maybe I do need to get tested for COVID,

712
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: whatever it might be. But they're solutions. Toxic shame wants

713
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: you to believe there's no solutions. You're just stuck in

714
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 1: this and you have to just control, control, control to

715
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 1: get out of it. And that's just not the case

716
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: that I think is a red flag marker. Toxic shame

717
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: is something that makes you think there's no solutions. So

718
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: if there's not a solution to the whatever you're feeling,

719
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,439
Speaker 1: unless you have a complete personality lobotomy or whatever, that

720
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: is a red flag that you might be sitting in

721
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 1: some toxic shame and you might need to offer yourself

722
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: some empathy and some understanding. Yeah. And also one thing

723
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 1: that I do want to add in that, especially because

724
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: we are in a pandemic like you're saying, is I

725
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: want to make sure everybody knows that there's no limit

726
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: to how much empathy. And I think that talk six

727
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: shame also can send us the message that I don't

728
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 1: deserve the empathy because other people are struggling more or

729
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: I should just be able to get over this or

730
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: pull them I should pull myself up by my bootstraps.

731
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: That going back to what you said earlier, and empathy

732
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: is something that like it is like a faucet that

733
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: is never shut off, Like we can have as much

734
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: as we want, and um, you don't have to dice

735
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 1: it out or rash it out. And when we start

736
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: to think that we have to, that's when shame is

737
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: winning that battle. So I think it's important for us

738
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 1: to implant in our our beings that there's no limit

739
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: to the amount of empathy we can offer ourselves and

740
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: other people. I hope everybody can receive that. More than anything,

741
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: I hope people can because haven't you heard that a

742
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: lot in your office? Just as people are struggling they're like,

743
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: I shouldn't feel this way because at least I still

744
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: have my job or I still get to see I

745
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: still I don't at least I don't live alone or

746
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: stuff like that. It's like, okay, but yeah, you still

747
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: have your job, but you're things are still happening. Yes,

748
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: And we do that as humans, and I hate that

749
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: we do it as humans. It's not just with COVID.

750
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 1: We do it with like I think, I think bring

751
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: a brain or one of her friends, or maybe Oprah

752
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: who got on the mouse. But it wasn't me who

753
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: said it. But it's like comparing Olympics and it's just

754
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: like there's no gold medal and suffering or silver bronze.

755
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: Like it's just like, well, what you're going through, it

756
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 1: sounds painful, and wow, that's a lot regardless of whatever.

757
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: If somebody's trauma or hardship or stress is different than yours,

758
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: that's all that it is. It just means a different friend.

759
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: It's just different. It doesn't mean we don't have to

760
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: like put this trauma or this stress or on a pedestal,

761
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: not in a not in a good way put it

762
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: on a pedestal, but like rank them and you know

763
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 1: something that that made me think of just going back

764
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: to day's doing all group therapy every day, you would

765
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,399
Speaker 1: hear a lot out here, a lot of clients. I'd

766
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: be like, why don't you ever talk in group? Like

767
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 1: you never and they're like, well, I feel bad talking

768
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: about my trauma because so and so is going through this.

769
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: And I was like, I would love for you to

770
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: say that to her and see what would happen. And

771
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: a lot of times they would, and that person who

772
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,919
Speaker 1: has the quote bigger trauma would say, one, I don't

773
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: want you to feel like that, but too when you

774
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: don't speak about your stuff because because you think mine

775
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: is so much worse, it makes me feel like mine

776
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,959
Speaker 1: is so much worse, and then I can't get over it.

777
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: It's almost like that's not they don't want that badge

778
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: of honor. A healthy human does not want to have

779
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,439
Speaker 1: the big, bad, worst trauma ever. And I think that

780
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: somebody said it, I think on this podcast recently and

781
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: now I'm blanking on who it is. But basically in

782
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: the sense that like trauma is all equal, it's all equal.

783
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: Trauma is trauma, and it's all equal. There is no

784
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: way to compare it. And if I think that if

785
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 1: we could catch ourselves doing that more, there we we

786
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 1: cut out a lot of the shame that we battle. Yes,

787
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, so much, because that's what our shame

788
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: tells us is we just don't talk about it. It's

789
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: not that big of a deal when well, it's a

790
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: big deal to you, and so then it's likely a

791
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,959
Speaker 1: big deal to the people who care about you. Yeah,

792
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: oh yeah. After talking about this for almost an hour now,

793
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: but after talking about a lot of the parts of shame,

794
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: the differences and toxic and healthy shame, where it comes from,

795
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: and how to help combat it, what do you want

796
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,720
Speaker 1: people to take from this? What do you want people

797
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 1: to hear and what we've talked about. I think I

798
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: want people to know and be able to really hear

799
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: and receive as dark and as heavy as those messages

800
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: that we live in, that we sit in, that we

801
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: act out of those messages of toxic shame. I just

802
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 1: want people to know, like you, guys, there is hope

803
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 1: we do not have to live in that that it

804
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: may feel so true to you, but I hope that

805
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: you can hear us when we say that they are lies,

806
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: nothing about them is true. What you went through is true,

807
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: and I believe that. But some of those those toxic

808
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: shame messages that you are wounded or not wounded, but

809
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 1: that you are flawed, and that you will never be

810
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: able to get better, and that you're a burden and

811
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: you're not enough for you're too much, any of those

812
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: things like that, that's lies, that is lies, and that

813
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: you can come out of that. And there's there's hope

814
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 1: in your friendships, there's hope through therapy. Hello, you need there,

815
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: if I guess, there's hope in your faith, there's hope

816
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: and just so many places, and so I hope that

817
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: you can find freedom from those lies because it doesn't

818
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: have to be that way. Yeah, well, thank you. I

819
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: think this was a great conversation and something that is

820
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 1: going to put some language on a lot of stuff

821
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: that some of us are feeling. So I want to

822
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: say thank you for being here, thank you for being yourself,

823
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 1: thank you for help me my friends, thank you, you

824
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: are You're welcome. Keep saying to your friends, and again

825
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: I want to reiterate that if you heard Cammy and

826
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: we're like, oh, she's got something that I want to

827
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: know more about. Um, if you've connected with her, you

828
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: can find her at alongside healing dot Com. I'm gonna

829
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: work on that Instagram, yeah, and I'm gonna give the people.

830
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give the people. P