WEBVTT - Presidential Hopeful Baswedan on a Net-Zero Indonesia 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.279 Hi, this is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:08.000 On the VNAF podcast. Back in November of twenty twenty two, 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:11.040 Indonesia was the host of the B twenty and G 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:15.280 twenty meetings in Bali, and this is when BNAF hosted 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.360 our very first summit in Southeast Asia. In the day's 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.960 leading up, it was at this event that Ben Vickers, 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:25.600 who is the chief editor for BNAF, first interviewed Anis 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:29.200 Bizweedan on stage. Now at the time that they met, 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:32.280 they talked about recording this episode, and a few months later, 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:35.160 here we are on Switched On talking about the path 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:40.279 to decarbonization for Indonesia. On today's episode, we hear from 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:45.320 Pacanis regarding goals for decarbonizing, how Indonesia is approaching the issue, 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:49.120 and how one might think about timelines for emerging markets. 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.680 As a reminder, BNAF does not provide investment or strategy advice, 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:55.800 and we have a very complete disclaimer that can be 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.160 listened to at the end of the show. Additionally, if 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.440 you were interested in seeing the videos from bnaf's summit 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:06.200 in Bali, they can be found at about dot BNAF 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:12.080 dot com, forward slash Bali Forward slash videos. I'm going 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:15.160 to take you straight into the interview now because Ben 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:20.160 provides a great introduction both for Anise Buzuela and for Indonesia. 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:24.679 Let's hear their conversations. 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:31.040 So we have with us Anis Buzwaden, candidate in Indonesia's 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:34.520 presidential election in twenty twenty four next year. Now, among 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.600 much other experience, he's been a Minister Education and Culture 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.120 in the country, and he's been the governor of Jakarta 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.080 until late last year. Now, also Anni, he knows the 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:46.360 US very well. He was a full Bright scholar at 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:48.720 the University of Maryland School of Public Policy, and he 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.400 got a doctorate in political science from Northern Illinois University. 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:55.360 That's some years ago, though a lot of waters has 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:59.160 passed under the bridge since then. Still Indonesia and standing 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:01.520 as a candidate for the presidency. This is an amazingly 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:04.040 complex country. Just to give a little bit of an 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.480 idea of the scale, population of two hundred and seventy 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.800 two million, and it's many thousand, many thousand islands, two. 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:13.560 Thousand islands, and hundreds of languages languages, one. 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:16.600 Hundreds of Bogan languages. My goodness. Now, compared that size 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:18.600 two hudred and seventy two million, compared to the EU 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:20.800 that has four hundred and forty six million. For example, 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:22.960 the US, the whole US is three hundred and thirty 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.160 three million. They're about so john seventy two million massive population. 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.519 The economy is growing at five percent per year. One 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:34.440 other measure as emissions. Of course, so Indonesians per capita 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.760 emissions are two tons of CO two a year. That 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.040 compares to six point one tons in the European Union 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:45.200 and fourteen tons in the US. That however, you also 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.560 know two tons in Indonesia and it's increasing, whereas the 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:50.600 six tons in the EU and the fourteen tons in 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:53.800 US are both numbers that are decreasing over time. Who 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:55.080 knows if they're going to meet at some point, but 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:57.440 that's the degarbanization process in which we're going to be 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:01.360 talking about. First of all, and now what makes Indonesia's 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.280 move to a lower carbon economy especially challenging. 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.680 Part of the reasons is because this is a society 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:15.600 that use energy at the family level for mobility, which 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:19.440 is consume a lot of energy, and our development has 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:25.079 been focusing on the car oriented development and therefore, for example, 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:28.880 like the case of Jakarta just as and illustrations why 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:33.560 it is challenging. We have eleven million population in our 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:38.040 city and we have about the same numbers of motorcycles 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:42.280 and cars. So actually our motorcycles we have thirteen million, 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:49.480 thirty million motorcycles and three million cars registered cars and motorcycles. 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.960 So when we're talking about the carbonization, so it is 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.600 challenging because you have to handle it at the smallest 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.720 units of your society, which is a family level, at 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.760 individual levels, right, and that's why this is one of 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:08.080 the one of the big challenges. So converting into transit 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:12.160 oriented development that has been our commitment and we work 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:14.960 on it in the past five years and we're seeing 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:19.200 a tremendous change. So if we are able to continue this, 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.680 then we tackle one of the challenges on the governmentization. 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:28.040 That's really interesting. So is the scale of the carbonization, 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:30.160 the little details you have to go into my spait, 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.359 that's one of the challenges. Yes, yes, and there's not 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:33.960 two big companies you can go to and get the 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.520 job done. It's many millions of people that have to 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:38.240 change their habits and have to change. 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.600 And on top of that, our fuel is heavily subsidized. 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:47.960 So what happened is mobility we're using private vehicles, and 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:51.720 the private vehicles we're using fuel that is heavily subsidized, 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:56.599 and reducing the subsidy is politically challenging and now with 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.960 the increase of world oil price, it has put price 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:03.600 sure us in government. But on the other hand, this 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:09.839 also one of key reason why the carbonization becomes important. 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.359 From the government point of view. We need to reduce 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:17.400 that subsidy, and to reduce that subsidy, then peoples need 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:21.400 to reduce their oil consumption fuel consumption, and to do 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:27.640 that give incentive for conversion into electric vehicles, and that 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.120 is the avenue that we are now doing. 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:33.240 That's super interesting. Now, there was some good news at 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:34.960 the end of last year in November, I think it 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:38.000 was the just Energy Transition Partnership, which was led in 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.840 this case by the US and Japan, along with Canada, 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.400 the EU, Germany, France, the UK normally a bunch of 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:47.440 countries signed a deal to help fund the energy transition 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.400 in Indonesia. Now that's going to provide twenty billion dollars 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.880 over the next three to five years. Now, I think 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:54.960 at the point was the biggest deal and been done 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.400 this sort. That was very exciting, but we have to 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.640 put that in context. The country has a target to 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:06.120 reach at zero in twenty sixty and our calculations indicate 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:10.200 that the cost of reaching by that time is going 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:13.080 to be it's going to require three point five trillion 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.520 dollars of investment. This is a massive process. There's only 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:18.120 a lot of money as to border into the country. 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.000 That was the twenty billion dollars in a different life. 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.400 So my question to you is where is this money 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:24.640 going to come from? 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:26.960 That's one of the biggest challenges actually, And when you 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.880 look at this issue, there are a few area that 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:31.680 you have to look at it. One is what I 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:37.000 mentioned earlier, mobility, Two is power plans that we have 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:41.560 in the country, and three is the new constructions of 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.760 power plants across Indonesia. Let me give you a illustrations. 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.680 You talk about the country earlier. This is two hundred 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:51.120 and seventy million peoples and you know what often offerlook 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.640 is this is an archipelago. This is not a continental 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:59.360 so you don't have a centralized boarding grip that distribute 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.960 power across the country. The other hand, it gives you 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:08.400 incentive to create more sustainable power generator because then small 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.840 islands across Indonesia do you have and in the tropical 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:18.560 area in the equator, which definitely solar generated energy is 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.680 something that we are pursuing. So how do you finance 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.320 all of this? I think, based on our experience in 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.720 the PARTA for example, PPP is one of the way 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:33.400 to go. So private public partnership, right, So when it 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:38.320 comes to public project, inviting private sectors to come into 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.040 the equation is key. For example, when we are doing 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:47.280 electrifications of our buses, then we partners with the private 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:52.440 sectors and they do the investment, we purchase their services, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.280 and it was a way to go and otherwise it 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.400 would cause us a lot. But by having that kind 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:03.280 of partnership then we're able to attract a large number 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:07.520 of investment and still from the business point of view, 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:09.680 that can make it a good business. But on the 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.280 other hand, it is in line with our sustainable objective. 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.640 So you're suggesting part of this money, a sizeable chunk 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:18.840 is going to have to come from private investors. I think, 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:20.200 So essentially, what is what you're saying. 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.720 On the one have a private investment but also government 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:27.800 driven project, So it's a punish yes, but the utility 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.160 in the country is still stay controlled PLN. Is that 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.640 likely changes the reforms likely to come in that area 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.080 or is that it's likely to come. Reform likely to 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:40.840 come given the challenge that we have and the speed 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:47.640 of supply. The growth of supply has not been satisfying. 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.680 So I think we will come to a point where 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:54.160 major reform needs to the place. 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.880 That again, probably a contentious issue, quite quite a complicated 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.720 political brass. I imagine all right, now, Indonesia's power demand 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.960 is expected to grow three to five times by twenty fifty, 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.400 just because the economy is growing, population, so on. But 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:12.960 that means that the power system itself is going to 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:16.679 need to expand probably more than eightfold by that time, 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.640 and potentially much more than that. So as this power 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:22.680 system grows in all the ways it can, how are 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.679 we going to balance that against sticking to these emissions 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.360 targets which have in next area by twenty sixty? Yeah, 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.520 I was how do you keep that? Think earlier? 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.680 The setting of Indonesia is an archipelago, but also this 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.599 is an area it's often called a spring of fires. 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:42.720 That's where Innunicia is. So we're talking about solar generative power. 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:47.160 Indonisio has one of the richer's potensils for that and 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:51.280 that has not been explored much. And those tools were 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.880 sustainable source of power. So I think on the one 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.400 hand we have that target. On the other hand, we 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:00.839 are seeing opportunity in the new area. However, there's one 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.400 more things is we need to have more fair and 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:10.400 just transitions from call power generated energy which we have 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.400 been using in the bus a few decades into a 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.760 cleaner one. But that transition will require times for that. 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:21.160 So I'm seeing for the futures the transition needs to 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.080 take place. But on the other hand, we need to 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:30.199 address seriously about taking new avenues which is a soller 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:32.600 generated and also the theodre so. 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:34.880 Just energy transition partnership that we talked about earlier. The 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:39.079 twenty billion dollars are aimed at taking cold out. Yeah, 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.920 because the Indonesia is the largest the world's largest export 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.800 of thermal coal at the moment. The various things going 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.040 on there in that market to ensure the country has 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.600 enough coal for its own needs. But that's something that 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.160 will potentially need to be need to be addressed because 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:53.839 fair enough they can burn it, but if you're still 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.559 exporting coal where everyone else is burning coal. There's still 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:58.560 a good business there. But there are other other things, 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.800 and as somebody's starting to some of these things, for example, 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:06.080 the renewable generation targets for twenty thirty, the target at 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:08.400 the moment is for twenty three to twenty five percent 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:12.240 of renewable generation of power generation to be coming from 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.000 renewables by twenty thirty. That sounds like a lot twenty 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.960 thirty twenty five percent our generation by twenty thirty, but 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:22.160 it's actually the lowest among twenty countries. So is that 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:24.679 something that is changing. That's that's one question. 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.640 Up to twenty thirty, maybe among the lowest, but when 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.600 you're talking about twenty fifty, then we were catching up 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:35.440 in the immediate first decades of that transitions. As I 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:39.839 mentioned earlier, we have quite a large burden on our soldiers, 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:42.520 so we don't want to be too ambitious the first 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.920 ten years. However, this is not only about twenty thirty. 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:49.679 We're talking about twenty fifty, twenty sixty. Our ambition and 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:53.559 twenty fifty is at par with other countries, and we 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:58.280 do hope by then we will have more rooms to 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:03.160 maneuver in terms of financial support, in terms of source 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:07.079 of new energy, and hopefully in some of technology available. 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.600 The technology that we may be seeing in twenty thirty 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:14.280 would may have been completely different than what we have today, 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.240 So we have to put that into account when we 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:21.600 talk about the speed of that transition. So, yes, we 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.680 may be among the lowest to reach the twenty to thirty, 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.120 but we're at par for twenty fifth. 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.600 Okay, so it's not fair comparison. Yeah, it's not fairy invisive, 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.240 you're starting slowly. It's like place for your catching outrivaty. Yeah. 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.679 And even in our case in Zakarada, for example, we 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.559 aim thirty percent reductions of greenhouse emissions by twenty thirty. 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:46.400 That target was achieved much earlier. We reached twenty six 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:49.040 percent reduction in twenty twenty one. 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:51.679 You know, so you're setting let's target so you can 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:53.000 look really good. 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:57.120 But once we get there, then we expedite the process. 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.360 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense, makes sense. Yeah, you 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:01.480 didn't want to shootself in the foot with targets being 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.400 too high and no achieving you right, Yeah, Okay. 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.640 It's not like Michaelangelo, say, you know, I'm not worried 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:10.800 about it you feel to it's if you're target when 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:12.600 I'm worried, is your dargist too law? 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:17.199 And it's different REI. So there are other ways. I 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.120 think of Indonesia participating in this energy transition to a 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.480 sort of clean, cleaner economy in a way. And of 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:24.920 course there's EBS entrification of transport, which is a big thing, 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:26.840 and I named Jacati did some things in that respect. 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.240 But I want to talk about nickel because Indonesia has 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.280 about a quarter of all known nickel deposits in the world, 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.960 and nickel, of course is an important component of batteries. 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:37.880 And sorry, what's going to happen there? What would you 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.840 like to see happen with mining and potentially being part 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:42.000 of the supply chain for. 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.160 Batteries, Persia will play a major roles in the supply 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.320 channel batteries for sure, big as our nickels. But also 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:52.400 we would like to see advancement of technology on the 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:56.559 use of nichols, and we have invested a lot. And 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.880 what we'd like to see also the fact that we're 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:05.280 to see more of battery manufacturing taking place in Indonesia, 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:10.000 so instead of us exporting raw madrials of nickels, we'd 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:13.320 like to have battery productions here in the country. So 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:20.080 in that directions electrifications of our public transport of private 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:23.600 vehicles in line with the presence of supply of battery, 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.880 which is key for electric vehicles. I believe it would 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.240 help to expedite the process of achieving authority. 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.240 So you want to stimulate internal demand for batteries as 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.560 it were, within the country as a way of enabling 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.640 that industry to grow. And indeed, who's going to make 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:44.440 batories in Indonesia. It may not immediately an Indonescient company, 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.960 but at least it is being produced within Indonesia in Indonesia. 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.280 And since the demand is so high in terms of 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.560 battery for electric vehicles as well as for other like 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:58.400 solar panels and et cetera, again, that's going to need investments. 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:00.720 So presumly money is the product three point five trillion 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:01.120 whatever it is. 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.600 See again, when it comes to this, I think from 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.960 the government point of view, we outline the policy direction 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:12.600 and then give the incentive and disassentive from fiscal point 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.440 of view, right, that's to allow market to actually grow 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:20.960 and provide solutions. So the solution to this problem can 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.520 be from by us creating us in government creating the 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.720 markets for that. The demand is definitely there, but we 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.520 need to create markets that supply will grow. 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.760 Is that going to require more reform or pieces in 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:38.160 place distangy. 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:42.320 Definitely, some regulations need to be revised. Give you an example, 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.840 all of regulations with regard to private vehicles has always 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:50.720 been combustion based vehicles and we need to revise all 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.480 of that and it requires a lot of work, but 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:57.080 we need to do that. And then tariff barriers on 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:03.080 electric base equipment from motorcycles all the way to solar 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:06.320 panels for example. This is very interesting for importations and 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:10.120 for productions. So we really have to look at details 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:14.720 of many of our policies to give incentive of conversion 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:19.480 into a more sustainable approach of technology. That's what needed 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:22.640 and if we do that, market will grow. 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.280 Yeah, it's the current government so aligned with these sort 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:25.640 of idea. 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.200 I think so LUs two years ago it was twenty 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.640 twenty that of a President Jocob we issued the new 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.800 regulations that they got to this and we need to 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.280 have more of this. It's in the directions of creating 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.200 new markets for sustainable solution. 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.160 Interesting. So we're getting close to the end of the 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:49.600 time we have so just one, maybe two more questions. Now, 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:53.000 with investment required a discale three point five trillion dollars, 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.840 it's going to be important to establish priorities. I would 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.320 imagine we can't do everything or once. What will be 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:02.200 top of the list and most effectively? And what road 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:04.520 does government have in attract this mine. You've alluded to 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:05.280 that already. 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:06.680 I speaks the question here is what would be your prior 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:10.600 ships focus on the urban areas in Indonesia. Indonesia is large, 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.400 but it has to start somewhere, and the best way 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:19.240 on addressing this challenge is by focusing on major cities. 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.240 When you say major cities, how many is twelve twelve citasties, 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.840 twelve big cities, and then from there you go to 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:28.199 the more medium size this which will have around fifty 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.359 of roll. If you address that, then we will be 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:38.880 able to significantly improve our speed of achieving our target. 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:43.199 Many thought that Indonesia is an agriculture base. It's a 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:47.480 rural based society. It used to be, but by now 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.640 fifty seven percent of our population is living in the cities. 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.280 Right and this is a trend across the globe. The 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.520 world will have around seventy percent of our populations by 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:01.760 twenty thirty twenty thirty five. So if we address our privy, 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:10.080 put our priorities into sustainable urban mobility and a transit 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:15.199 oriented development in our urban area, we will significantly reduce 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.120 our burden. And I think that's where the priority should be. 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:21.600 Just because I think networks of cities are a very 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.040 interesting way maybe of working in getting a European Union 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.320 and many places where it might work. But in the 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.159 case of Indonesia, would you have to work with the 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.560 individual governors of different cities and different administrations or is 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:33.480 there a network? Are they coordinated? Are they used to 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:35.320 working together those twelve seasies. 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:40.080 There's not a formal network of those cities. But what 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.679 happened is this city government may not have the physical 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:49.040 capacity to convert from cor oriented development into transit the 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:52.480 development the way Jakarta did it. Because Jakarta has the 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.920 fiscal power. That's where national government can step in, right 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:03.640 by assisting these twelve cities. Let's convert into trugit oriented development. 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.560 Here are the policy framework, here are the channel for financing, 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.840 Here are some rules and regulations, and then they will 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.359 definitely willing to join that. But if we are only 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:19.400 giving them sort of instructions unit to achieve this target 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.320 and that target, they would say, where can I get 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.280 the money? What are the policy framework to allow us 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:29.239 to achieve that? So the fact that we have a 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:33.880 lot of major cities and they don't have the physical 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.960 capacity for that conversion, we have to look at it 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:38.800 as an opportunity for center government. 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.080 You're going to help them over with that barriox because exactly. 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:44.760 Because at the end of the day, the report will 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:50.200 be at the national level, so local achievement will be accumulated, 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.439 the numbers will be acculiumated in the national level, and 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.080 we need to start somewhere, and that somewhere is the 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:58.760 urban area. So why do we just do that and 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:00.600 do that approach? And I think to be able to 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:04.320 report to the world, then interne Easia is being responsible 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:06.400 and we cantribute our parts. 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:08.119 That's great. Well, as governor of Jakarta, you've had some 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.480 experience at how cities operate, so hopefully that plan works out. 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.600 In terms of the scale of transformation that's requires. We 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:16.520 say there's lot of money, but there's transformation in many 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:19.040 other ways as well. And of course it's consumer choice, 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:22.280 its habits. It's economic transformation and different sorts and creating 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.719 new industries such as battering manufacturing. And I'm wondering if 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.000 transformation this scale, is there a risk that it could 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:30.240 actually become a hindrance to development in the country, Decarbonization 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:32.800 becomes something hard to do and grow at the same time, 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.520 and other trade offs to be made. There are we 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.600 at risk of overregulation sort of excessive adminisrative burden. I'm 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:40.640 getting these things done. What's your view? 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.000 Theoretically people can say that, but it cannot be an 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.720 ecology can work hand in hand and we'll work it 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.960 up together. Theoretically we can say that, but in reality 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:52.439 the challenge is on how do we go about it. 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:58.720 I think one important aspect is, let's not reinvent the wheel. Okay, 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:03.680 let's learn from countries cities across the globe what our 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:08.119 breakthrough that we can actually learn, adopt, adapt And I 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:12.600 think that's where cooperation is important so that we can 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:16.600 learn that. But I do think that we are at 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:21.560 the point where we cannot tolerate this anymore. So this 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:23.920 is a time in which we just have to take 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:29.040 a responsible policy into action. And it may be hard, 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:32.080 but we just have to do it because if we delay, 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:36.080 if we don't take this route, regardless of how heavy 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:40.040 it is, we will not have the kind of earth 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:43.920 and ecosystem that we like to be for our children 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:47.320 and the children of our children. It sounds like a 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:50.960 very idealistic but it is actually the reality. So we 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:51.760 just have to do it. 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:53.639 That's an interesting idea to keep in mind, isn't it. 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:57.920 Yeah, it sounds, but it is reality we need to address. 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:02.280 And I think new generations of nonations we're really for it. 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:05.480 So even though if at the beginning it may cause 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:09.879 us extra in terms of resources, in terms of time 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:13.520 and all of that, I think the band will keep 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:15.439 that in mind that this is something that we have 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:15.719 to do. 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:20.280 Okay, one last line, one sentence. If do you have 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:22.800 a message I space for the international finance community or 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:25.080 investor community, what would you say to them? 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:31.439 One thing, Let's put time perspective of our transition in 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:32.320 a fair way. 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:34.240 As we thought earlier. 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:38.159 If we look at our transition in the period of 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:41.919 ten years, we may be seeing different approach if we 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:45.320 do it in twenty thirty or fourth years. For a 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:49.919 country like us who have undergone I would say less 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:53.600 sustainable oriented development in the past, I give us time 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:59.720 and then number two is partnering in terms of financing. 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:04.000 We need the world to help the flopping countries including 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:08.879 Indonesia to pay for the way basically in term of 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:11.480 unecessarily sources to reach Arthajit. 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:13.880