1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: On the VNAF podcast. Back in November of twenty twenty two, 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Indonesia was the host of the B twenty and G 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: twenty meetings in Bali, and this is when BNAF hosted 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: our very first summit in Southeast Asia. In the day's 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: leading up, it was at this event that Ben Vickers, 7 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: who is the chief editor for BNAF, first interviewed Anis 8 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: Bizweedan on stage. Now at the time that they met, 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: they talked about recording this episode, and a few months later, 10 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: here we are on Switched On talking about the path 11 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 1: to decarbonization for Indonesia. On today's episode, we hear from 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: Pacanis regarding goals for decarbonizing, how Indonesia is approaching the issue, 13 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: and how one might think about timelines for emerging markets. 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: As a reminder, BNAF does not provide investment or strategy advice, 15 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: and we have a very complete disclaimer that can be 16 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: listened to at the end of the show. Additionally, if 17 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: you were interested in seeing the videos from bnaf's summit 18 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: in Bali, they can be found at about dot BNAF 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: dot com, forward slash Bali Forward slash videos. I'm going 20 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: to take you straight into the interview now because Ben 21 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: provides a great introduction both for Anise Buzuela and for Indonesia. 22 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: Let's hear their conversations. 23 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 2: So we have with us Anis Buzwaden, candidate in Indonesia's 24 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 2: presidential election in twenty twenty four next year. Now, among 25 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: much other experience, he's been a Minister Education and Culture 26 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 2: in the country, and he's been the governor of Jakarta 27 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: until late last year. Now, also Anni, he knows the 28 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: US very well. He was a full Bright scholar at 29 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: the University of Maryland School of Public Policy, and he 30 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: got a doctorate in political science from Northern Illinois University. 31 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: That's some years ago, though a lot of waters has 32 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 2: passed under the bridge since then. Still Indonesia and standing 33 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: as a candidate for the presidency. This is an amazingly 34 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 2: complex country. Just to give a little bit of an 35 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: idea of the scale, population of two hundred and seventy 36 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 2: two million, and it's many thousand, many thousand islands, two. 37 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 3: Thousand islands, and hundreds of languages languages, one. 38 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: Hundreds of Bogan languages. My goodness. Now, compared that size 39 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: two hudred and seventy two million, compared to the EU 40 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 2: that has four hundred and forty six million. For example, 41 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 2: the US, the whole US is three hundred and thirty 42 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: three million. They're about so john seventy two million massive population. 43 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 2: The economy is growing at five percent per year. One 44 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: other measure as emissions. Of course, so Indonesians per capita 45 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: emissions are two tons of CO two a year. That 46 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: compares to six point one tons in the European Union 47 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 2: and fourteen tons in the US. That however, you also 48 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: know two tons in Indonesia and it's increasing, whereas the 49 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: six tons in the EU and the fourteen tons in 50 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 2: US are both numbers that are decreasing over time. Who 51 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 2: knows if they're going to meet at some point, but 52 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: that's the degarbanization process in which we're going to be 53 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 2: talking about. First of all, and now what makes Indonesia's 54 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 2: move to a lower carbon economy especially challenging. 55 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 3: Part of the reasons is because this is a society 56 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 3: that use energy at the family level for mobility, which 57 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 3: is consume a lot of energy, and our development has 58 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 3: been focusing on the car oriented development and therefore, for example, 59 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 3: like the case of Jakarta just as and illustrations why 60 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 3: it is challenging. We have eleven million population in our 61 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 3: city and we have about the same numbers of motorcycles 62 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 3: and cars. So actually our motorcycles we have thirteen million, 63 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 3: thirty million motorcycles and three million cars registered cars and motorcycles. 64 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 3: So when we're talking about the carbonization, so it is 65 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 3: challenging because you have to handle it at the smallest 66 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 3: units of your society, which is a family level, at 67 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 3: individual levels, right, and that's why this is one of 68 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 3: the one of the big challenges. So converting into transit 69 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 3: oriented development that has been our commitment and we work 70 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 3: on it in the past five years and we're seeing 71 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 3: a tremendous change. So if we are able to continue this, 72 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 3: then we tackle one of the challenges on the governmentization. 73 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. So is the scale of the carbonization, 74 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 2: the little details you have to go into my spait, 75 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 2: that's one of the challenges. Yes, yes, and there's not 76 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: two big companies you can go to and get the 77 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 2: job done. It's many millions of people that have to 78 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: change their habits and have to change. 79 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 3: And on top of that, our fuel is heavily subsidized. 80 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 3: So what happened is mobility we're using private vehicles, and 81 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 3: the private vehicles we're using fuel that is heavily subsidized, 82 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 3: and reducing the subsidy is politically challenging and now with 83 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 3: the increase of world oil price, it has put price 84 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 3: sure us in government. But on the other hand, this 85 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 3: also one of key reason why the carbonization becomes important. 86 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 3: From the government point of view. We need to reduce 87 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 3: that subsidy, and to reduce that subsidy, then peoples need 88 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 3: to reduce their oil consumption fuel consumption, and to do 89 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 3: that give incentive for conversion into electric vehicles, and that 90 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 3: is the avenue that we are now doing. 91 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 2: That's super interesting. Now, there was some good news at 92 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: the end of last year in November, I think it 93 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: was the just Energy Transition Partnership, which was led in 94 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 2: this case by the US and Japan, along with Canada, 95 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: the EU, Germany, France, the UK normally a bunch of 96 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: countries signed a deal to help fund the energy transition 97 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: in Indonesia. Now that's going to provide twenty billion dollars 98 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 2: over the next three to five years. Now, I think 99 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 2: at the point was the biggest deal and been done 100 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 2: this sort. That was very exciting, but we have to 101 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 2: put that in context. The country has a target to 102 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: reach at zero in twenty sixty and our calculations indicate 103 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 2: that the cost of reaching by that time is going 104 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 2: to be it's going to require three point five trillion 105 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: dollars of investment. This is a massive process. There's only 106 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: a lot of money as to border into the country. 107 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: That was the twenty billion dollars in a different life. 108 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: So my question to you is where is this money 109 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: going to come from? 110 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 3: That's one of the biggest challenges actually, And when you 111 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 3: look at this issue, there are a few area that 112 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 3: you have to look at it. One is what I 113 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 3: mentioned earlier, mobility, Two is power plans that we have 114 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 3: in the country, and three is the new constructions of 115 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 3: power plants across Indonesia. Let me give you a illustrations. 116 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 3: You talk about the country earlier. This is two hundred 117 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 3: and seventy million peoples and you know what often offerlook 118 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: is this is an archipelago. This is not a continental 119 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 3: so you don't have a centralized boarding grip that distribute 120 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 3: power across the country. The other hand, it gives you 121 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 3: incentive to create more sustainable power generator because then small 122 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 3: islands across Indonesia do you have and in the tropical 123 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 3: area in the equator, which definitely solar generated energy is 124 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 3: something that we are pursuing. So how do you finance 125 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 3: all of this? I think, based on our experience in 126 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 3: the PARTA for example, PPP is one of the way 127 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 3: to go. So private public partnership, right, So when it 128 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 3: comes to public project, inviting private sectors to come into 129 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 3: the equation is key. For example, when we are doing 130 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 3: electrifications of our buses, then we partners with the private 131 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 3: sectors and they do the investment, we purchase their services, 132 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 3: and it was a way to go and otherwise it 133 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 3: would cause us a lot. But by having that kind 134 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 3: of partnership then we're able to attract a large number 135 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 3: of investment and still from the business point of view, 136 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 3: that can make it a good business. But on the 137 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 3: other hand, it is in line with our sustainable objective. 138 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 2: So you're suggesting part of this money, a sizeable chunk 139 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: is going to have to come from private investors. I think, 140 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: So essentially, what is what you're saying. 141 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 3: On the one have a private investment but also government 142 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 3: driven project, So it's a punish yes, but the utility 143 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 3: in the country is still stay controlled PLN. Is that 144 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 3: likely changes the reforms likely to come in that area 145 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 3: or is that it's likely to come. Reform likely to 146 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 3: come given the challenge that we have and the speed 147 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 3: of supply. The growth of supply has not been satisfying. 148 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 3: So I think we will come to a point where 149 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 3: major reform needs to the place. 150 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: That again, probably a contentious issue, quite quite a complicated 151 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: political brass. I imagine all right, now, Indonesia's power demand 152 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 2: is expected to grow three to five times by twenty fifty, 153 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 2: just because the economy is growing, population, so on. But 154 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: that means that the power system itself is going to 155 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 2: need to expand probably more than eightfold by that time, 156 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: and potentially much more than that. So as this power 157 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 2: system grows in all the ways it can, how are 158 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 2: we going to balance that against sticking to these emissions 159 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 2: targets which have in next area by twenty sixty? Yeah, 160 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: I was how do you keep that? Think earlier? 161 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 3: The setting of Indonesia is an archipelago, but also this 162 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,599 Speaker 3: is an area it's often called a spring of fires. 163 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 3: That's where Innunicia is. So we're talking about solar generative power. 164 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 3: Indonisio has one of the richer's potensils for that and 165 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 3: that has not been explored much. And those tools were 166 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 3: sustainable source of power. So I think on the one 167 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 3: hand we have that target. On the other hand, we 168 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 3: are seeing opportunity in the new area. However, there's one 169 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 3: more things is we need to have more fair and 170 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 3: just transitions from call power generated energy which we have 171 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 3: been using in the bus a few decades into a 172 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 3: cleaner one. But that transition will require times for that. 173 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 3: So I'm seeing for the futures the transition needs to 174 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 3: take place. But on the other hand, we need to 175 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 3: address seriously about taking new avenues which is a soller 176 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 3: generated and also the theodre so. 177 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: Just energy transition partnership that we talked about earlier. The 178 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 2: twenty billion dollars are aimed at taking cold out. Yeah, 179 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: because the Indonesia is the largest the world's largest export 180 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 2: of thermal coal at the moment. The various things going 181 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 2: on there in that market to ensure the country has 182 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: enough coal for its own needs. But that's something that 183 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: will potentially need to be need to be addressed because 184 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 2: fair enough they can burn it, but if you're still 185 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 2: exporting coal where everyone else is burning coal. There's still 186 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 2: a good business there. But there are other other things, 187 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: and as somebody's starting to some of these things, for example, 188 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 2: the renewable generation targets for twenty thirty, the target at 189 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: the moment is for twenty three to twenty five percent 190 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: of renewable generation of power generation to be coming from 191 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: renewables by twenty thirty. That sounds like a lot twenty 192 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 2: thirty twenty five percent our generation by twenty thirty, but 193 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: it's actually the lowest among twenty countries. So is that 194 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 2: something that is changing. That's that's one question. 195 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 3: Up to twenty thirty, maybe among the lowest, but when 196 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 3: you're talking about twenty fifty, then we were catching up 197 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 3: in the immediate first decades of that transitions. As I 198 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 3: mentioned earlier, we have quite a large burden on our soldiers, 199 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 3: so we don't want to be too ambitious the first 200 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 3: ten years. However, this is not only about twenty thirty. 201 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 3: We're talking about twenty fifty, twenty sixty. Our ambition and 202 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 3: twenty fifty is at par with other countries, and we 203 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 3: do hope by then we will have more rooms to 204 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 3: maneuver in terms of financial support, in terms of source 205 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 3: of new energy, and hopefully in some of technology available. 206 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 3: The technology that we may be seeing in twenty thirty 207 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 3: would may have been completely different than what we have today, 208 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 3: So we have to put that into account when we 209 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 3: talk about the speed of that transition. So, yes, we 210 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 3: may be among the lowest to reach the twenty to thirty, 211 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 3: but we're at par for twenty fifth. 212 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 2: Okay, so it's not fair comparison. Yeah, it's not fairy invisive, 213 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: you're starting slowly. It's like place for your catching outrivaty. Yeah. 214 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 3: And even in our case in Zakarada, for example, we 215 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 3: aim thirty percent reductions of greenhouse emissions by twenty thirty. 216 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 3: That target was achieved much earlier. We reached twenty six 217 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 3: percent reduction in twenty twenty one. 218 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 2: You know, so you're setting let's target so you can 219 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 2: look really good. 220 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 3: But once we get there, then we expedite the process. 221 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense, makes sense. Yeah, you 222 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: didn't want to shootself in the foot with targets being 223 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: too high and no achieving you right, Yeah, Okay. 224 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 3: It's not like Michaelangelo, say, you know, I'm not worried 225 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 3: about it you feel to it's if you're target when 226 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 3: I'm worried, is your dargist too law? 227 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 2: And it's different REI. So there are other ways. I 228 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: think of Indonesia participating in this energy transition to a 229 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: sort of clean, cleaner economy in a way. And of 230 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 2: course there's EBS entrification of transport, which is a big thing, 231 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 2: and I named Jacati did some things in that respect. 232 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 2: But I want to talk about nickel because Indonesia has 233 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: about a quarter of all known nickel deposits in the world, 234 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 2: and nickel, of course is an important component of batteries. 235 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: And sorry, what's going to happen there? What would you 236 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 2: like to see happen with mining and potentially being part 237 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: of the supply chain for. 238 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 3: Batteries, Persia will play a major roles in the supply 239 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 3: channel batteries for sure, big as our nickels. But also 240 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 3: we would like to see advancement of technology on the 241 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 3: use of nichols, and we have invested a lot. And 242 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 3: what we'd like to see also the fact that we're 243 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 3: to see more of battery manufacturing taking place in Indonesia, 244 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 3: so instead of us exporting raw madrials of nickels, we'd 245 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 3: like to have battery productions here in the country. So 246 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 3: in that directions electrifications of our public transport of private 247 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 3: vehicles in line with the presence of supply of battery, 248 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 3: which is key for electric vehicles. I believe it would 249 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 3: help to expedite the process of achieving authority. 250 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: So you want to stimulate internal demand for batteries as 251 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 2: it were, within the country as a way of enabling 252 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 2: that industry to grow. And indeed, who's going to make 253 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 2: batories in Indonesia. It may not immediately an Indonescient company, 254 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 2: but at least it is being produced within Indonesia in Indonesia. 255 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 2: And since the demand is so high in terms of 256 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: battery for electric vehicles as well as for other like 257 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: solar panels and et cetera, again, that's going to need investments. 258 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: So presumly money is the product three point five trillion 259 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 2: whatever it is. 260 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 3: See again, when it comes to this, I think from 261 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 3: the government point of view, we outline the policy direction 262 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 3: and then give the incentive and disassentive from fiscal point 263 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 3: of view, right, that's to allow market to actually grow 264 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 3: and provide solutions. So the solution to this problem can 265 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 3: be from by us creating us in government creating the 266 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 3: markets for that. The demand is definitely there, but we 267 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 3: need to create markets that supply will grow. 268 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: Is that going to require more reform or pieces in 269 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: place distangy. 270 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 3: Definitely, some regulations need to be revised. Give you an example, 271 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 3: all of regulations with regard to private vehicles has always 272 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 3: been combustion based vehicles and we need to revise all 273 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 3: of that and it requires a lot of work, but 274 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 3: we need to do that. And then tariff barriers on 275 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 3: electric base equipment from motorcycles all the way to solar 276 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 3: panels for example. This is very interesting for importations and 277 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 3: for productions. So we really have to look at details 278 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 3: of many of our policies to give incentive of conversion 279 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 3: into a more sustainable approach of technology. That's what needed 280 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 3: and if we do that, market will grow. 281 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the current government so aligned with these sort 282 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 2: of idea. 283 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 3: I think so LUs two years ago it was twenty 284 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 3: twenty that of a President Jocob we issued the new 285 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 3: regulations that they got to this and we need to 286 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 3: have more of this. It's in the directions of creating 287 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 3: new markets for sustainable solution. 288 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 2: Interesting. So we're getting close to the end of the 289 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: time we have so just one, maybe two more questions. Now, 290 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 2: with investment required a discale three point five trillion dollars, 291 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: it's going to be important to establish priorities. I would 292 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 2: imagine we can't do everything or once. What will be 293 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 2: top of the list and most effectively? And what road 294 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: does government have in attract this mine. You've alluded to 295 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 2: that already. 296 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 3: I speaks the question here is what would be your prior 297 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 3: ships focus on the urban areas in Indonesia. Indonesia is large, 298 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 3: but it has to start somewhere, and the best way 299 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 3: on addressing this challenge is by focusing on major cities. 300 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 3: When you say major cities, how many is twelve twelve citasties, 301 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 3: twelve big cities, and then from there you go to 302 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 3: the more medium size this which will have around fifty 303 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 3: of roll. If you address that, then we will be 304 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 3: able to significantly improve our speed of achieving our target. 305 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 3: Many thought that Indonesia is an agriculture base. It's a 306 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 3: rural based society. It used to be, but by now 307 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 3: fifty seven percent of our population is living in the cities. 308 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 3: Right and this is a trend across the globe. The 309 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 3: world will have around seventy percent of our populations by 310 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 3: twenty thirty twenty thirty five. So if we address our privy, 311 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 3: put our priorities into sustainable urban mobility and a transit 312 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:15,199 Speaker 3: oriented development in our urban area, we will significantly reduce 313 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 3: our burden. And I think that's where the priority should be. 314 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 2: Just because I think networks of cities are a very 315 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: interesting way maybe of working in getting a European Union 316 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: and many places where it might work. But in the 317 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 2: case of Indonesia, would you have to work with the 318 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 2: individual governors of different cities and different administrations or is 319 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 2: there a network? Are they coordinated? Are they used to 320 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: working together those twelve seasies. 321 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 3: There's not a formal network of those cities. But what 322 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 3: happened is this city government may not have the physical 323 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 3: capacity to convert from cor oriented development into transit the 324 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 3: development the way Jakarta did it. Because Jakarta has the 325 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 3: fiscal power. That's where national government can step in, right 326 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 3: by assisting these twelve cities. Let's convert into trugit oriented development. 327 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 3: Here are the policy framework, here are the channel for financing, 328 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 3: Here are some rules and regulations, and then they will 329 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 3: definitely willing to join that. But if we are only 330 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 3: giving them sort of instructions unit to achieve this target 331 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 3: and that target, they would say, where can I get 332 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 3: the money? What are the policy framework to allow us 333 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,239 Speaker 3: to achieve that? So the fact that we have a 334 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 3: lot of major cities and they don't have the physical 335 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 3: capacity for that conversion, we have to look at it 336 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 3: as an opportunity for center government. 337 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: You're going to help them over with that barriox because exactly. 338 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 3: Because at the end of the day, the report will 339 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 3: be at the national level, so local achievement will be accumulated, 340 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 3: the numbers will be acculiumated in the national level, and 341 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 3: we need to start somewhere, and that somewhere is the 342 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 3: urban area. So why do we just do that and 343 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 3: do that approach? And I think to be able to 344 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 3: report to the world, then interne Easia is being responsible 345 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 3: and we cantribute our parts. 346 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 2: That's great. Well, as governor of Jakarta, you've had some 347 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 2: experience at how cities operate, so hopefully that plan works out. 348 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 2: In terms of the scale of transformation that's requires. We 349 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 2: say there's lot of money, but there's transformation in many 350 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: other ways as well. And of course it's consumer choice, 351 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 2: its habits. It's economic transformation and different sorts and creating 352 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 2: new industries such as battering manufacturing. And I'm wondering if 353 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: transformation this scale, is there a risk that it could 354 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: actually become a hindrance to development in the country, Decarbonization 355 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: becomes something hard to do and grow at the same time, 356 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: and other trade offs to be made. There are we 357 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: at risk of overregulation sort of excessive adminisrative burden. I'm 358 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 2: getting these things done. What's your view? 359 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 3: Theoretically people can say that, but it cannot be an 360 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 3: ecology can work hand in hand and we'll work it 361 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 3: up together. Theoretically we can say that, but in reality 362 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 3: the challenge is on how do we go about it. 363 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 3: I think one important aspect is, let's not reinvent the wheel. Okay, 364 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 3: let's learn from countries cities across the globe what our 365 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 3: breakthrough that we can actually learn, adopt, adapt And I 366 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 3: think that's where cooperation is important so that we can 367 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 3: learn that. But I do think that we are at 368 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 3: the point where we cannot tolerate this anymore. So this 369 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 3: is a time in which we just have to take 370 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 3: a responsible policy into action. And it may be hard, 371 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 3: but we just have to do it because if we delay, 372 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 3: if we don't take this route, regardless of how heavy 373 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 3: it is, we will not have the kind of earth 374 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 3: and ecosystem that we like to be for our children 375 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 3: and the children of our children. It sounds like a 376 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 3: very idealistic but it is actually the reality. So we 377 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 3: just have to do it. 378 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 2: That's an interesting idea to keep in mind, isn't it. 379 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds, but it is reality we need to address. 380 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 3: And I think new generations of nonations we're really for it. 381 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 3: So even though if at the beginning it may cause 382 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 3: us extra in terms of resources, in terms of time 383 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 3: and all of that, I think the band will keep 384 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 3: that in mind that this is something that we have 385 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 3: to do. 386 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 2: Okay, one last line, one sentence. If do you have 387 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 2: a message I space for the international finance community or 388 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 2: investor community, what would you say to them? 389 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 3: One thing, Let's put time perspective of our transition in 390 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 3: a fair way. 391 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 2: As we thought earlier. 392 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 3: If we look at our transition in the period of 393 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 3: ten years, we may be seeing different approach if we 394 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 3: do it in twenty thirty or fourth years. For a 395 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 3: country like us who have undergone I would say less 396 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 3: sustainable oriented development in the past, I give us time 397 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 3: and then number two is partnering in terms of financing. 398 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 3: We need the world to help the flopping countries including 399 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 3: Indonesia to pay for the way basically in term of 400 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 3: unecessarily sources to reach Arthajit. 401 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 2: It's been really interesting to talking to you and thanks 402 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 2: plus great on ik give your time, most welcome. 403 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was edited by Greystoke Media. 404 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 1: Bloomberg n EF is a service provided by Bloomberg Finance 405 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: LP and its affiliates. 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