1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 2: Man, welcome back to Coast to Coast, George nor with you. 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 2: Good to be with you on a Friday night. Robert 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 2: Zimmerman back with US. Historian Robert jimmer has been chronicalizing 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: and putting the history of space exploration for almost four 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 2: decades with books, articles, and web pages. His website is 7 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 2: behind the Black dot com. He is an expert in 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 2: stories of astronauts and world events, and here he is 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 2: back on Coast to Coast. Mister Zimmerman, how are you. 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 3: I'm just fine, Jeosh, I'm pretty glad to be here. 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. It's always pleasure. And the 12 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 3: timing is right where just before that Onymous two mission 13 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 3: kind of exciting in some ways and exciting not so 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 3: good in other ways. 15 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: Yes, this delay because of weather. I guess they're wising 16 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: up and realizing you can't keep pushing things. But it'll 17 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 2: get going. 18 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 3: Huh uh. This the delay on the All right, so 19 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 3: let me review what the mission's about to Sofia audience. 20 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 3: I'm sure they know, but just it's good to do 21 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 3: a quick review. This mission is going to be the 22 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 3: first manned mission in the Artomis program. It's going to 23 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 3: be using the SLS rocket that Master has been building 24 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 3: for about two decades, about a decade and a half, 25 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 3: and its cost is about sixty billion dollars. This is 26 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 3: only its second launch, and it's going to be using 27 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 3: the Orion capsule, which Lackied Martin has been building for 28 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 3: about two decades. Cost about twenty five billion dollars to 29 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 3: build about a half a dozen capsules. That and they're 30 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 3: going to put four astronauts on this mission. And it's 31 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 3: going to take a very wide slingshot orbit that will 32 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 3: take it around the Moon, not into orbit, and then 33 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 3: come back to Earth. The overall mission is going to 34 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 3: be about ten days. That's the plan. The problem it's now, 35 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 3: so they're going to do a wet what they call 36 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 3: the wet dress rehearsal. They were going to do it 37 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: on Saturday tomorrow, but they're not going to do that 38 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 3: because the weather it was very cold in Wins. This 39 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 3: is not this is not a pretty standard it's not 40 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 3: a big surprise. They got a big rocket. They want 41 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 3: to be safe, so they're gonna do this. The wet 42 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 3: dress holds and what they do is they simulate a 43 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 3: full countdown up until ten seconds before launch, They fuel 44 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 3: the rocket, they do everything as if they can actually 45 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 3: do a launch. And they were also gonna do some 46 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 3: some make belief holes like something's wrong, and then cycle 47 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 3: will count back again as if they had to do that. 48 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 3: So practice, and this is a good thing to do. 49 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: They're gonna do it on Friday. That's not where the 50 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 3: danger is, George. This comes down to NASSA once again, 51 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 3: like in Challenger, and in like Columbia, putting schedule above 52 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 3: engineering the Challenger they did. They wanted to prove the 53 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 3: Shuttle could launch regularly like an airplane, and so they 54 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 3: were gonna launch no matter what, even though engineers told 55 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 3: them the cold weather in January was gonna make those 56 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 3: O rings and solid rocket boosters freeze and not work. 57 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 3: And they said, no, no, no, we got to shoot. 58 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 3: We got a schedule, we got to launch. So they launched, 59 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 3: and seven people died. With Columbia for years, and this 60 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 3: is literally true. For years they had evidence that phone 61 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 3: was coming off the external tank and hitting the tiles 62 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 3: and damaging them. For years, NASA had that information, but 63 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 3: they just dismissed it and said no, no, no, we 64 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 3: got to schedule, we got to keep flying, and so 65 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 3: once again the whole crew died when Columbia was hit 66 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 3: by foam. Its thermal protection system was damaged and it 67 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 3: broke up upon re entry. So here we have Automis two. 68 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 3: We're going to launch, and it's going to launch now 69 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 3: because Donald Trump wants to have a lunar land and 70 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 3: not just Donald Trump, Ted Cruz and a lot of 71 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 3: senators want to have a man lunar landing before the Chinese. 72 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 3: Now I should point out that we don't have to 73 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 3: beat the Chinese to the Moon, in case anyone hasn't noticed, 74 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 3: we did it already a lot of time. Say again, 75 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 3: a lot of times we beat them. That's right, We've 76 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 3: been there already six times. So we don't have to 77 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 3: beat them to prove we could we could do it. 78 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 3: But they want to beat them, and so they want 79 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 3: to have this mission go around the Moon so that 80 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 3: the next Automis mission can land on the Moon by 81 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 3: twenty eight I will tell you the twenty eight day 82 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 3: is a fantasy. But let's put that aside for a minute. 83 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 3: Let's talk about Artemis two, the orion capsule they're using 84 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 3: with Artemis two. When they launched it on an unmanned 85 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 3: test flight around the Moon back in twenty two. It 86 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 3: came back through the atmosphere, and when they recovered it 87 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 3: in the ocean, they were shocked to find that the 88 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 3: heat shield had not functioned as expected. Not it didn't 89 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 3: just a blade off as it's supposed to, you know, 90 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 3: very gently, layer on layer. That's how these heat shields 91 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,119 Speaker 3: always work. As the heat they take the heat away 92 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 3: by ablating the layers off. No, what happened is large 93 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 3: chunks broke off. Never happened before. NASA spent two years 94 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 3: analyzing this. They think important word. They think they have 95 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 3: figured out why it happened. This particular heat shield on 96 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 3: Oryan is much larger than they've ever used before. It's 97 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 3: got seams, and they thought coming through the atmosphere, gas 98 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 3: got into those scenes and acted almost like a chisel 99 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 3: pulling the chunks out. All right, so you're dealing with 100 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 3: a heat shield that's questionable. NASA has made the decision 101 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 3: not to change the heat shield. They're going to change 102 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 3: the heat shield on the next Orion mission, the next 103 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 3: Automis mission, but they didn't have time to put it 104 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 3: on this particular capsule and so instead they're going to 105 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 3: launch it with this capsule with a heat shield that 106 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 3: is questionable with a problem, and they're not entirely sure 107 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: they understand, though some think they do, and they've decided 108 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 3: that the way to solve the problem is they changed 109 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 3: the trajectory of the capsule as it comes into the 110 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 3: atmosphere to reduce the stress on the heat shield. 111 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: Is artamis a NASA spacecraft or a privacy. 112 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 3: This is all NASA. These are all NASAs, not private enterprises. 113 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 3: Though Lockie Bontin make the capsule. This is a NASA design, 114 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 3: NASA project. This is all NASA. This is not private enterprise, 115 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 3: and so they're doing that. That's one. Now. I will 116 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 3: point out that if SpaceX wanted to put people on 117 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 3: a Dragon capsule with this kind of heat shield problem, 118 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 3: I guarantee to you that NASA would say, no way, Jose, 119 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,679 Speaker 3: you do an unmanned miss and mission test it first 120 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 3: before you do. So NASA is not doing that because schedule. 121 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 3: They got to get this up so they can launch 122 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 3: the man mission by twenty eight. Once again, that schedule 123 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 3: is a fantasy. We'll get to that later. But that's 124 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 3: one issue. That's one It's not the only one. This 125 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 3: particular Orion capsule will be the first capsule to have 126 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: a life support system on it. The Orion capsul life 127 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 3: support system was not tested in twenty two people on 128 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 3: the capsule. They didn't need it, but they should have 129 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 3: tested it. So instead they're going to put four people 130 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 3: on a capsule with an untested life support system in space, 131 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 3: and they're going to try to tell you using as 132 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 3: guinea pigs. To test this life support system. NASA has 133 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 3: planned to keep the capsule in Earth orbit for about 134 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 3: a day at a high Earth orbit, but for about 135 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 3: a day to test the life support system out so 136 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 3: there if there are any issues, they could come back 137 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 3: to Earth safely. You Apollo era, they flew a ten 138 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 3: day mission in Earth orbit to test the Apollo systems 139 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 3: with humans on board for ten days, to duplicate a 140 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 3: lunar mission to make sure that everything would work for 141 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 3: the length of time needed to go to and from 142 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 3: the Moon. They're not doing that here, so that's a 143 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 3: second issue. And once again, if any private company wanted 144 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,239 Speaker 3: to put astronauts on a capsule for NASA with an 145 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 3: untested life support system, I guarantee you. And that's what 146 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 3: we'd say no, but once again, they got to meet 147 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 3: the schedule, and so they're going to launch, and that's 148 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 3: what they're gonna do. This is a very foolish situation. Now, 149 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 3: I will point out, to be fair to NASA, they 150 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:17,679 Speaker 3: tested the heat shield on the ground extensively. They even 151 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 3: tested it in the worst possible circumstance. They tested it 152 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 3: to see what happens if the heat shield completely fails 153 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 3: and the hull of the orion capsule gets exposed to 154 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 3: the heat of reentry. And they came away from those 155 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 3: tests reassured. It appeared to them that the hull would 156 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 3: survive that circumstance. So they're reassured, and that is reassuring. 157 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 3: But I repeat, they do not know if this changed 158 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 3: trajectory will really work. Modeling says so, but as we 159 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 3: all know, with modeling that can be raw, and in 160 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 3: good engineering rocketry, you don't test with people until you've 161 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 3: tested it unmanned. And this is the problem with NASA. 162 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 3: It's the same problem with Challenger and with Columbia. They 163 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 3: should not be flying this mission there. Now. I had 164 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 3: an upbed on Pajamas Media about three weeks ago where 165 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 3: I begged little It was my headline, I beg Trump 166 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 3: and Jared Eisaman and the head of NASA to take 167 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 3: the people off this mission, and I outlined if they 168 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 3: did this as an unmanned mission, it really would not 169 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 3: delay this whole program significantly. It wouldn't layed enough to 170 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 3: not beat the Chinese to the Moon, because I'm not 171 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 3: I'm sure that Chinese are not going to land on 172 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 3: the Moon with people before twenty thirty, based on everything 173 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 3: I'd seen in their program, and the White House knows this. 174 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 3: They have enough information to know this, so there's time 175 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 3: to spare. And this gets back to once again that 176 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 3: twenty eight date, getting men humans on the Moon by 177 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 3: twenty eight, that's not a real number anyway. They're not 178 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 3: going to do it by twenty eight because they got 179 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 3: too many things they've got to get built first. First 180 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 3: of all, the starship that they have starship that they 181 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 3: want to use as the land is very unlikely to 182 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 3: be ready by that time. It might be operational enough 183 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 3: for unmanned missions, but NASA wants SpaceX to do an 184 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 3: unmanned mission to the Moon. It's not going to get 185 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 3: this done by twenty eight, almost certainly. So they have 186 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 3: time and there's no reason to push this, but gung 187 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 3: ho go fever, and here we go again. I am 188 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 3: praying the mission works and nothing goes wrong. I think 189 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 3: the actually the odds are reasonably good that will happen. 190 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 3: But if nothing bad happens, this is just going to 191 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 3: continue NASA with the bad culture it's had for forty years. George. 192 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 3: This gets back to your question the reason. It's a 193 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 3: NASA government rocket, it's a NASA government capsule, it's a 194 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 3: NASA government program, and these are always filled with these 195 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 3: kind of kind of poor management decisions for political reasons. 196 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,839 Speaker 3: If an enterprise generally doesn't do this, they have too 197 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 3: many risks. They don't get them money from tax dollars. 198 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 3: They get it from customers who have faith in them. 199 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at 200 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: one am Eastern and go to Coast tocoastam dot com 201 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: for more