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Speaker 1: Welcome to Crime Round Up. Joshua Schieffer, I gotta tell you,

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Speaker 1: I am so irritated. I'm telling you, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't even have anything positive to start with. I try

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Speaker 1: to be a glass half full. But I'm going to

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Speaker 1: tell you something, and I want everybody that is wearing

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Speaker 1: a badge to listen to me right this minute. Ninety

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Speaker 1: nine point nine percent of the time you need a warrant.

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Speaker 1: Ninety nine zero point nine percent of the time you

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Speaker 1: need a warrant if you are searching a person, their home,

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Speaker 1: their business, or their vehicle.

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Speaker 2: We've made it easy, and we've made it easy. Spent

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Speaker 2: the last fifty years figuring out okay lawrants are now

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Speaker 2: super required. Let's make it real easy to get them.

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Speaker 2: And we've done that, and.

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Speaker 1: Let me make it even easier. I'm not an attorney.

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Speaker 1: Listen to me. I am not an attorney, but I

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Speaker 1: got one sitting here with me. It won't hurt your

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Speaker 1: case if you get one and don't need it. No, no,

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Speaker 1: So the question would be to me get one every time? Correct.

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Speaker 2: There is no downside save exigent circumstances to getting a warrant.

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Speaker 2: Warrants are there as the mandatory bright Line Safety World check.

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Speaker 2: That is easy for judges to attach to, and they say,

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Speaker 2: all right, here's the stuff that happened when there was

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Speaker 2: a warrant. Here's the stuff that happened when there wasn't

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Speaker 2: a warrant. It's pretty easy to separate the two buckets. Cheryl,

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Speaker 2: You and I know half the damn judges in this town.

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Speaker 2: We could get a warrant within a very short period. Literally,

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Speaker 2: it's set up to video appear, get a warrant gone.

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Speaker 1: Or the days you had to go search for somebody

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Speaker 1: at a bar or restaurant, it's all video, it's all electronic.

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Speaker 2: They used to hunt judges down in person, just with

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Speaker 2: the piece of paper. Man, there was an officer whose job.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, I can go find Judge Smith. Let's go

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Speaker 2: find him. He'll sign this right now. Because warrants now

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Speaker 2: are so easy, there is no excuse.

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Speaker 1: Joshua, Judge Andy Michkel, God rest his soul. We knew

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Speaker 1: where to find him.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, wasn't herd.

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Speaker 1: Bar Stool's end of a left.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, old Judge Fuller out in Gwenett County, who I

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Speaker 2: knew very very well. Similarly, and you could find it's

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Speaker 2: not hard to find a magistrate. There's a duty magistrate

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Speaker 2: on twenty four hours a day in every major county

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Speaker 2: in the nation like it's And for those of y'all

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Speaker 2: that are wondering what we're covetching about, it's this mangione

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Speaker 2: here that is happening right now. Are probably just wrapped

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Speaker 2: up for the day and listening to very strong arguments

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Speaker 2: about fundamental stuff law enforcement is supposed to do. Be

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Speaker 2: aware of how they're supposed to act. Especially when you've

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Speaker 2: been dispatched on at the tail end of what is

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Speaker 2: then a five day man hunt for an assassination caught

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Speaker 2: on video. It has not been the strongest showing for

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Speaker 2: law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: Bottom line, this will be, if not the biggest case

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Speaker 1: of their career, the biggest media case of their career.

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Speaker 1: How in the world do five officers show up then

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Speaker 1: supervisors are made aware of who they got and there's

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Speaker 1: not a warrant for that backpack.

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Speaker 2: And now that they find themselves in this position on

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Speaker 2: a case of such importance, not just because it's a

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Speaker 2: big crime and a horrible murder, the politics that are

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Speaker 2: connected to this run real deep and fundamental, with some

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Speaker 2: class issues we haven't even gotten into the politics of

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Speaker 2: what the defense and mister Mangioni and all that, the

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Speaker 2: social movement. No, we haven't even gotten to that part.

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Speaker 2: This is fundamental operative stuff and the real problem is,

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Speaker 2: now that we're in the middle of it, it appears

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Speaker 2: that it would be fair to conclude the officer has

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Speaker 2: been specifically coached how to thread this needle in a

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Speaker 2: very delicate manner in order for the judge to allow

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Speaker 2: the evidence to stand. And that begs the question that

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Speaker 2: underlies all these criminal prosecutions and everything in civil courdia.

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Speaker 2: Are you lying? Is that really what happened?

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Speaker 1: Are you?

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Speaker 2: Are you just testifying because you know you need to

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Speaker 2: say this in order to prevail. Because unfortunately, when you

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Speaker 2: look at police citizen encounters, which have been litigated to

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Speaker 2: death for fifty years, you got there are tier levels.

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Speaker 2: There are more opinions on what an officer was and

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Speaker 2: was not allowed to do with or without what level

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Speaker 2: of suspicion. We now train officers with big bright highlighters. Hey,

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Speaker 2: here's how probable cause works. Here's where the lines are.

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Speaker 2: You gotta stay within the lines because if you get

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Speaker 2: outside the lines, everything happens outside that line is not

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Speaker 2: coming into your case, and unfortunately, this officer appeared to

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Speaker 2: have not taken this, by his own admission, as a

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Speaker 2: terribly serious dispatch. And he has got to establish it's

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Speaker 2: I believe dett Weiler is the name. He has got

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Speaker 2: to establish very specifically that when he was dispatched, he

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Speaker 2: didn't have any specific probable cause or realization that this

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Speaker 2: was the guy, that this was man joney. He has

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Speaker 2: to have been basically zero alert, because if he was

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Speaker 2: an alert, if he had suspicion, he should have gotten

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Speaker 2: a warrant. He should have mirandized people in me.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: It's this trap for the poor officer where he can't testify. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: I thought it was him, so I was just gonna

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Speaker 2: go poker. No no, no, no no. That's gonna lose the

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Speaker 2: case for you. And that poor officer is going to

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Speaker 2: get pilloried by the fact that it appears that his

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Speaker 2: testimony has been thoroughly coached in a specific way.

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Speaker 1: Y'all, you have listened to Joshua Scheffer on Zone seven

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Speaker 1: Crime round Up Court TV al of other places. Y'all

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Speaker 1: don't always know the words he's using, Let's be honest.

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Speaker 1: He uses some phrases, some words where you're like, I

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Speaker 1: need to look that up. What did he just say?

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Speaker 1: Here's a hint. You don't want that person cross examining you.

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Speaker 1: Trust me, y'all heard him when he told y'all he

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Speaker 1: went to camp to learn how to come at you.

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Speaker 2: And the reports from the actual examination include, and there

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Speaker 2: are some wonderful people. This is a course federal court,

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Speaker 2: so we're really struggling with knowing exactly what's happening inside

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Speaker 2: the room. But there have been multiple reports of some

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Speaker 2: admissions from the officers about their procedure that basically stopped

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Speaker 2: all the criminal practitioners in the room and everybody knows

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Speaker 2: that knows criminal law stop and looked at each other

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Speaker 2: and we're like, did he did he just say that? Okay,

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Speaker 2: let's keep going there and keeping going? That is not

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Speaker 2: a good feeling when you're the witness. That is not

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Speaker 2: a good feeling when that's your when that's your witness

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Speaker 2: and you're the lawyer, because the witness is going to

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Speaker 2: get down, go how did I do? Man? How'd I do?

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Speaker 2: And oh man, you did great? When you very clearly

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Speaker 2: illustrated your lack of knowledge as to this specific training

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Speaker 2: issue and gutted everything we're trying to do here with

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Speaker 2: your authentic testimony. And I'm afraid there were a couple

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Speaker 2: of those conversations coming with some of this When and

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Speaker 2: how you obtain a warrant because of warrants just that easy.

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Speaker 2: And I tell you, if the government loses the bag

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Speaker 2: and the contents, we're going to have a whole nother

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Speaker 2: discussion about the poisoning the jury. Well, you and I

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Speaker 2: talked about this last week and how these statements that

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Speaker 2: are coming out from the administration and other agencies really

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Speaker 2: push the ethical boundaries of what law enforcement is supposed

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Speaker 2: to say or not say, most importantly, not say at

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Speaker 2: the early stages of an investigation. And it brings in

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Speaker 2: all that pre trial publicity stuff where even the most

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Speaker 2: conservative justices that are on the most federal panels now

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Speaker 2: look at that and go, whoa whoa fundamental fairness issue.

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Speaker 2: You have an elected or appointed prosecutor that owns the

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Speaker 2: press dominating a narrative while this innocent citizen, and judges

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Speaker 2: really do think about the innocent citizen, they do they

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Speaker 2: reverse roles and go, what if it was me in

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Speaker 2: that position, what would I be able to do? And

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Speaker 2: they see that fundamental unfairness of a narrative being created

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Speaker 2: by law enforcem before there's any investigation. That makes it

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Speaker 2: very hard to have integrity in your judicial system. And now,

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Speaker 2: if you're going to get some of that key evidence,

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Speaker 2: i e. The manifesto or not a manifesto, the gun

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Speaker 2: not a gun, the statements not the statements about the

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Speaker 2: fake ID that's done a fit, Well, yeah, it's the

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Speaker 2: only fake ID I had. Man, you lose that stuff.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not saying the case falls apart, but it

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Speaker 2: sure isn't as strong as it should be.

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Speaker 1: That's right. I don't believe the case is going to

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Speaker 1: fall apart one because we got a video. However, it

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Speaker 1: would be great to say, Hey, didn't he check into

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Speaker 1: that hostel with a fake ID from New Jersey? Is

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Speaker 1: this the same ID?

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Speaker 2: Great?

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Speaker 1: And what caliber nine millimeter was used? Is it the

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Speaker 1: same ammunition that was in that bag? Great? And this manifesto?

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Speaker 1: Does he not say I want to get a healthcare

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Speaker 1: CEO or whatever he says? You won't that to come in?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it is important evidence. And yet the fundamentals

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Speaker 2: of the case are going to stay the same. And

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Speaker 2: I'm certain that a good prosecutor can put together a

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Speaker 2: case even if the evidence is suppressed, but it is

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Speaker 2: not the case that the public deserves, and if there's

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Speaker 2: any chance at the most aggressive remedies being applied, which

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Speaker 2: a lot of people are calling for as one of

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Speaker 2: the few legitimate deterrent death penalty cases that's out there

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Speaker 2: because deterrence and the death penalty. Everybody says that death

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Speaker 2: penalty is not a deterrent. Well, when you've got a

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Speaker 2: random victim like this who's being selected purely because of

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Speaker 2: their political or economic position, Well, now now you've actually

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Speaker 2: got some deterrence because it tells the would be assassines. Nope, nope, nope,

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Speaker 2: we'll make these political cases death penalty. If the death

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Speaker 2: penalty portion of this case gets substantially weaker, that causes

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Speaker 2: big problems. And I tell you every suppressed piece of

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Speaker 2: evidence is going to be multiple appeals if this is

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Speaker 2: a death penalty case.

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Speaker 1: But you shouldn't give them, just give them anything. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this would be a huge blow. Shouldn't happen,

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Speaker 1: should not even be up for discussion, shouldn't be something

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Speaker 1: we're in court arguing about. It should have been done

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Speaker 1: by the book, by the numbers. They should have called

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Speaker 1: in a district attorney to say, hey, how do we proceed?

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Speaker 1: What do we do? This is the guy.

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Speaker 2: And what's frustrating from the practitioner perspective is due to

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Speaker 2: this being so factually driven and rules and procedure driven.

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Speaker 2: No matter what your political and personal moral persuasions are

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Speaker 2: in the criminal justice system, you probably haven't attached to

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Speaker 2: the rules. And you can be pro state, you can

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Speaker 2: be pro defense. This is a art. Do you believe in?

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Speaker 2: Rules are not? Because there aren't more clear rules than

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Speaker 2: some of these. And if these rules, if the rules

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Speaker 2: don't apply here, when do they really apply?

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Speaker 1: I mean, a man's life is on the line.

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Speaker 2: One of the big criticisms of our system is every

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Speaker 2: error is harmless and it's oh the rules, man, they're

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Speaker 2: all there, but they're not real rules because hold on,

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Speaker 2: you can violate them and still achieve a conviction that

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Speaker 2: with stands appellate review. And so now you just don't

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Speaker 2: need the state breaking one or two rules. Now you

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Speaker 2: need you need some pretty good stuff, clear violations of

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Speaker 2: a clear law rule ruling to win on appeal. This

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Speaker 2: would appear to be kind of clear and sets back

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Speaker 2: the whole discourse.

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Speaker 1: To me if you have an officer testifying and he says, look,

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Speaker 1: I mean I get this call to go to a McDonald's.

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Speaker 1: No way, it's this guy. He planned this thing so

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Speaker 1: well that you would think, Okay, he's been in a hostel.

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Speaker 1: Nobody's gonna really see him fake id. He moved about

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Speaker 1: the city without leaving much of a trail, or so

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Speaker 1: he thought. The way he took the bus, the way

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Speaker 1: he took you know, other transportations try to hide. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I understand, and I would completely when I would be

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Speaker 1: listening to him, I would get that, no way, this

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Speaker 1: is going to be the guy. But I'm going to

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Speaker 1: stroll into the McDonald's and I'm gonna make him happy.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do my job. I'm gonna check him out. Well,

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Speaker 1: he knew as soon as he saw him, that's the

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Speaker 1: guy we've all been seeing at that moment. There should

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Speaker 1: have been a supervisor notified. There should have been you know,

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Speaker 1: an ada en route. I mean, this thing should have

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Speaker 1: been let's circle the wagons and let's get to the

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Speaker 1: smartest person to tell us the best course of action.

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Speaker 2: And really, even if you're an inexperienced or undertrained officer,

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Speaker 2: which this officer unfortunately isn't he knew had well enough

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Speaker 2: training to know what to do or not do. Let

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Speaker 2: the training kick in, all right, at the moment you

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Speaker 2: realize it's him, it's detention, Miranda, and then call for

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Speaker 2: guidance and backup as soon as you have exigently secured

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Speaker 2: the scene, because as soon as you realize, oh, look

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Speaker 2: that's a killer, you get to be a friend. Officer

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Speaker 2: has the right and the privilege to be fearful for

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Speaker 2: public and personal safety the moment he realizes the person

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Speaker 2: that he's interacting with is the subject of a manhunt

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Speaker 2: and want it. But he'd kind of been told that

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Speaker 2: before even showing up. He just needed to make sure

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Speaker 2: he disclaims that enough. And in fact, there was very

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Speaker 2: specific testimony today about how the supervising officer had said, Hey,

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Speaker 2: if it's really him, I'll buy you a hogie, trying

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Speaker 2: to show how much of this wasn't serious and the

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Speaker 2: state needs this to not be serious until officer actually

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Speaker 2: identifies him. But then the moment you've identified him, everything's

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Speaker 2: got to go, according to the book, because this is

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Speaker 2: going to be picked apart and scrutinized to the highest level.

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Speaker 2: So you put him in custody, secure the safety of yourself,

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Speaker 2: the defendant, anybody else around, and then you call for

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Speaker 2: backup and you get the right direction, including before you

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Speaker 2: search anything, get a warrant, before you say anything to him.

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Speaker 2: You morandize him, and to miss some easy swings built

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Speaker 2: a pile of nuggets that the defense is reveling in.

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Speaker 2: Imagine being the defense lawyer and getting the potential murder

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Speaker 2: weapon suppressed because of a bad stop. And that's really

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Speaker 2: how you're going to hear this referred to is this

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Speaker 2: was a bad stop.

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Speaker 1: Get a warrant, Get a warrant, Get a warrant, Get

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Speaker 1: a warrant.

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Speaker 2: Not everybody is as sophisticated as mister MANGIONI. Though we

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Speaker 2: have some other trial action going on this week, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you've been paying too much attention to

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Speaker 2: that big case out of Massachusetts, this Brian Walsh case,

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Speaker 2: which you can tell it's a slow trial season because

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Speaker 2: this is the case that so many people are on

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Speaker 2: right now, talk about a case that didn't need to

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Speaker 2: get tried. I one hundred percent believe this was a

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Speaker 2: zero offer case that it was man. You can plead

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Speaker 2: to the court, you can take the deal, but we

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Speaker 2: ain't going to give you one minute off of a

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Speaker 2: max recommendation because of just the horrificness of the allegations,

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Speaker 2: followed up by the overwhelming evidence that Brian Walsh, who

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Speaker 2: killed his wife, dismembered her, hid her body, and then

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Speaker 2: lied to everyone, including their three kids, about what happened

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Speaker 2: to mommy. I almost feel bad for the defense crew,

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Speaker 2: except for the fact that I that I really kind

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Speaker 2: of am picking a bone with them the defense opening,

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Speaker 2: and these don't have squat to work with. The big

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Speaker 2: mistake that lawyers make is that if you don't have

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Speaker 2: anything to work with, you just get loud and angry

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Speaker 2: and people will pay attention to you. But that's basically

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Speaker 2: telling everybody, hey, we don't have anything and we need

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Speaker 2: to lose. And the defense for mister Walsh is laughable

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Speaker 2: and is basically guaranteeing he has to show up and

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Speaker 2: testify and he's going to get eviscerated on cross but

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Speaker 2: that he woke up in the middle of the night

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Speaker 2: or was there in the middle of the night, and

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Speaker 2: she was supposed to be asleep when he gets into

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Speaker 2: bed and she's not asleep, she's dead. And instead of

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Speaker 2: you know, calling ambulances and law enforcement and you know,

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Speaker 2: family members and freaking out, No, he started searching the

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Speaker 2: internet for the worst how do you dispose of a body?

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Speaker 2: Admissions of all time? Then he disposed of the body

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Speaker 2: and what I'm pretty certain is a graphically inexcusably awful

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Speaker 2: manner involving multiple dumpsters.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: And then he's lied his way into this position where

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Speaker 2: I expect, after a disastrous attempt, for him to save

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Speaker 2: himself via testify, and he's going to get convicted and

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Speaker 2: sentenced to multiple consecutives.

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Speaker 1: Well, I try to say as often as I can,

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Speaker 1: a lie is as good as a confession. But once

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Speaker 1: once I lock you in and you start changing it

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Speaker 1: even slightly. Now we're getting somewhere. But you know, it's

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Speaker 1: always a clue to me, Josh. When your place of

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Speaker 1: business report you missing before your.

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Speaker 2: Spouse bingo being it was like, okay, man, there's just

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Speaker 2: no logic in no matter what story you start to tell,

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Speaker 2: because you've failed to pass the first step, Like you don't,

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Speaker 2: you don't just keep quiet about them. Things wake up

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Speaker 2: next to a dead woman crawling to bed and the

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Speaker 2: person's dead and quiet. That is not what's happening. No

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Speaker 2: one understands or agrees with. No, no, no, you don't

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Speaker 2: tell anybody about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, don't tell them. And you don't want to upset

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Speaker 1: the kids, so chap her up and get rid of her.

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Speaker 2: Certainly not the three children you have. Oh and the

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Speaker 2: fact that you discovered that, yes, she was having an affair,

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Speaker 2: and that's awful and terrible. It's not death penalty though,

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Speaker 2: like having an affair shouldn't result in you being murdered

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Speaker 2: general rules. But yeah, this case and it again, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of the discussion is about the narcissism and

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Speaker 2: almost psychopathy of putting up a defense like this, because

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Speaker 2: it's so ridiculous his Google searches. All right, ladies and gentlemen,

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Speaker 2: if you did it on the internet, we can pay

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Speaker 2: somebody to go find out what you did. I know

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Speaker 2: you think you can encrypt a lot of it. And

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Speaker 2: there's arguments over the interpretate, but really, digital bits and

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Speaker 2: bites leave trails, and Google is only too happy to

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Speaker 2: comply with subpoenas, and man, his search history could not

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Speaker 2: be more inculpatory. It's can you identify a body when

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Speaker 2: you break the teeth in what's the best saw to

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Speaker 2: cut up a body is a hack saw really the

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Speaker 2: best saw to cut up a bot? Like it is, Cheryl,

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you, it makes you want to just wish

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Speaker 2: him into prison so that we don't have to be

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Speaker 2: exposed to the choices. It's it's insane but gripping television.

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Speaker 2: In a lot of ways, people really like watching the

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Speaker 2: case because of its salaciousness.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely well, honey, I hate to cut this short, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've got a family dinner to get to. It's gonna

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Speaker 1: be a tough, tough night, but I do appreciate you always,

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Speaker 1: and I you know, I just I get so frustrated

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Speaker 1: because it's like, we've done it. We've told you, we've

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Speaker 1: trained you, and look where we are. We're in a

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Speaker 1: position we shouldn't be in.

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Speaker 2: And the poor captain, the poor lieutenant, like, man, they

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Speaker 2: covered this like you go back to the barracks. Man,

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Speaker 2: you covered this right, like this is nausey on oh my,

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Speaker 2: it has got to be crushing.

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Speaker 1: So to me, the training should be you get a warrant.

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Speaker 1: Every time, get a warrant.

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Speaker 2: It's that easy, y'all. It ain't hard, you hear, Oh,

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Speaker 2: it's hard to get no, no, no, really, you raise

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Speaker 2: your hand, you say that you're a sworn police officer

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Speaker 2: with lots of training, and then you say, well, my

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Speaker 2: belief is I observed, since I observed this evidence, I

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Speaker 2: believe a crime has been committed. I would like to

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Speaker 2: show the permission of the court to put this person

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Speaker 2: under arrest and go search them. Most of the time

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Speaker 2: judges go and ask you a couple of questions such as,

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Speaker 2: it really is you and you really did see them

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Speaker 2: and this happened, or this is what you saw and

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Speaker 2: heard and reported from people. Yep, it's it's it's a specific,

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Speaker 2: articulable suspicion. It is not beyond a reasonable doubt. It

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Speaker 2: is not clear and convincing. It is not preponderance. That No,

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Speaker 2: it is the lowest bar in law. You have to

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Speaker 2: be able to enunciate and articulate a crime might have occur.

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Speaker 2: That's it. So there's just no excuse to skip. It's

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Speaker 2: like making a grilled cheese sandwich and you're like, well,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna do this, but we don't need cheese. Like

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Speaker 2: it just heals me.

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Speaker 1: It just it just is so frustrating.

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Speaker 2: I love talking at these conversations. The highlight of my week.

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Speaker 2: I love y'all in the audience, Michelle, I know that

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Speaker 2: you're gonna go celebrate some wonderful stuff with some love people.

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Speaker 2: So I'm gonna say good night to everyone. Go love somebody,

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Speaker 2: even if it's yourself. And I'm sorry if you heard

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Speaker 2: one of the Justice kitties purring the entire time. She's

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Speaker 2: just relentless these days.

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Speaker 1: All right, have a good week. Can he not talk

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Speaker 1: to you, sir by?

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Speaker 2: Y'all