WEBVTT - Part Four: MKUltra: When The CIA Tried to Destroy Free Will 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:09.480 Oh, Sophie, come on, this is it. This is a 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.200 time to celebrate. This is the longest recording session we've 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:16.480 ever had, five hours of c I A drug nonsense. 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:19.800 Here it behind the bastards. The people deserved to hear 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:25.040 me sing. You know, I thought, thank you, thank you 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:31.040 for praising me. I am lives on praise. Jason Pargeon, 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:35.639 how are you doing today? Well, the the vibe has 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.520 become so positive here and I'm sure it is among 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.360 the listeners too, because we now know that we're nearing 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:44.720 the end of the mk ulture project when everyone was 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:48.479 exposed and got what they deserved. Like it's been a 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.360 parade of human misery up till now that all of 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.640 the people who instigated this, like we all know, well yeah, 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.400 but this is where they all go to jail. This 0:00:57.480 --> 0:00:59.680 is where the truth comes to light, where all the 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:02.960 reef forms come into play. So I know it's been 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:05.440 a dark few episodes up to this point, but this 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:08.680 is where it's like, Okay, this is the sunrise, this 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:12.080 is the happy ending. That's right, And and listeners, if 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:14.640 that doesn't wind up happening, I want to tell you 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:21.560 it is Jason Pargeon's fault. Personally that thanks in that way. Jason. 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:23.760 Before we move on, I want to let the listeners 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.080 know you are the author of a whole bunch of books, 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:28.520 but you have one that is just now coming out. 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.880 If this book exists, you're in the wrong universe. It 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:33.760 is the fourth novel in the John Dyes at the 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.480 End series, which I started reading when I was like 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.800 twelve or thirteen and has had a big impact on 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:44.040 my sense of humor. So I cannot recommend your books enough. Um, 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.760 you're ready to ready to close this out? Jason, Yes, absolutely, 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.080 all right, let's do it so in between Trists and 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.400 San Francisco, UM making use of all of the sex 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.960 workers that the CIA was paying for. UM. Gottlieb massively 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:03.600 expanded the CIA a subcontractor program during the late nineteen fifties, 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.560 using cutouts, these little fake corporations that he would have 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.400 the agency set up create to sponsor research at a 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.880 number of different institutions that you probably know today. These 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:19.480 include Massachusetts General Hospital, Ionia State Hospital, Mount Sinai, several 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:24.480 dozen universities including Harvard, Berkeley, m I T, Stanford, and Baylor. UM. 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.120 The CIA is carrying out l D tests. They are 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:32.000 drugging people, torturing people, deep patterning them at many of 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.880 these different universities. Also, there's sometimes doing weirder stuff, some 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:37.920 of which is less horrible than some of the stuff 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.440 we've talked about today. But like if there's a big 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.280 hospital or a prominent university, the CIA was probably doing 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:50.000 some ship there. Um, Okay, obvious questions, did these facilities know? 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.720 Do these institutions know what was going on? The the 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.799 the employees of those institutions who are running the programs 0:02:56.840 --> 0:03:00.080 to right these are not The CIA isn't sending agents 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.359 into Berkeley or like Baylor to to run things they are. 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:07.880 They are finding doctors and professors who want to carry 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.440 out research that is in line with what the CIA 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:12.760 wants to do, and they are paying those people. Now, 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.920 some of those professors, those researchers don't know what's the CIA, 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:19.000 and some of this research is stuff that isn't all 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.400 that fucked up. It's like, hey, we want to know, 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:25.720 you know how this um this particular pattern of electroshock 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.960 therapy might impact people with this you know condition, and 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:31.040 then they'll do the test and you never know. You 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:32.600 go the rest of your life not knowing that You 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.839 just conducted research for the CIA. Right, that is some 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.600 of this, but it's not most of this. A lot 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.800 of these doctors are perfectly aware of what they're doing 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:44.680 and who they're working for, as we're going to make 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:49.040 clear in a little bit. Um. So, Gottlei's objectives at 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.360 this point have spread well beyond where things were with 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:55.320 Project Artichoke. Um. During long sessions on LSD with his friends, 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.080 he gradually put together a list of the different substances 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.760 he wanted to research. He publicly this is a memo 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:04.600 in nineteen fifty five. It included number one substances which 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.440 will promote illogical thinking and impulsiveness to the point where 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:11.360 the recipient would be discredited in public. Number two substances 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:15.320 which increase the efficiency of mentation and perception. Number three 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:19.240 materials which will prevent or counteract the intoxicating effective alcohol. 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:30.440 Number four materials which will promote the intoxicating effective alcohol. Um. Yeah, 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:33.200 let's just think of how such an invention would change 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:38.600 the world. You can get drunk on so much? Will 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:42.040 it be cheaper? Like? Can you imagine if just one 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:46.359 beer could get you as drunk as twelve beers? I 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.240 can imagine Jason, like in the movie version of this, 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:52.000 gott Lee like looking over as they're as they're taking 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.640 the program apart. They're burning all everything. He like operations 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.320 stronger alcohol and like files it away along with these 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.880 like last couple of cans that you see gradually like 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.680 make their way through The CIA is like underground labs 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.200 until they wind up on the shelves of a bodega 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.120 in New York City, packaged as for Logo. Yes, operation 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:17.839 for Loco, the CIA is greatest success. So we have 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.840 been going through San Francisco and slipping cans of four 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:27.360 Loco too, unbeknownst to the residents there, and observing their behavior. 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.960 It's almost like they've had three beers. It's incredible, Sydney, 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:35.880 you've done it again. So got Leave's wish list included 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:39.400 substances that would enhance the efficacy of hypnosis, drugs that 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.039 could help people avoid brainwashing, substances that could create pure 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.279 euphoria with no crash, which sounds like he just wanted 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.800 something to get high on. And here's where things get sketchy, Jason. 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:53.719 Substances which alter personality structure in such a way that 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.560 the tendency of the recipient to become a dependent upon 0:05:56.600 --> 0:06:01.719 another person is enhanced. So it's a weird mix of things. Um, 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.480 that one's pretty scary, but I'm not hearing in there 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:08.680 is the classic Manchurian candidate thing. And by the way, 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.960 I don't does everybody listening still know that term? Like 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.760 there this is an old movie that we're referencing that's 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:19.000 been remade a couple of times, but it's the classic 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.159 thing of it's the brainwashed assassin, the person who doesn't 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.920 know they're an assassin, where you can literally program someone 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:30.000 I guess, like Arl Schwarzenegerant told recalled, like go assassinate somebody, 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.159 and then there's like a phrase it will activate them 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.880 and and like a zombie like form, they will pick 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:36.839 up a gun and go shoot the queen or the 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.680 president or whatever. And it's important to note, Jason, I 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:42.520 kind of I probably should have made this more of 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.159 a factor in the script. The book The man charryan 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.280 candidate and like the movie have a big impact on 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.159 this program a lot of Like when that comes out, 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:53.719 it gets them like another wave of interest, and like 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:55.760 Dullis or I think I'm not sure if Dullis is 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:58.000 around with them, but like they and this is like 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.240 a regular thing for the CIA, because Leab the thing 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.839 he does after him k Ultra is he's the CIA's 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.560 gadget man for years, He's making anything they need, and 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:09.640 a lot of times someone will come to him because 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:11.760 they've seen something in a James Bond movie and will 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:15.600 just be like, Hey, Sydney, can we actually like make this, Like, Sydney, 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:17.520 can you put a gun in like a Rolex watch 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.160 for me? Hey, Sydney, can we like bulletproof a car 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.720 like this? You know? Like that's actually how a lot 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.400 of this does this? This does work, um, you know, 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:28.720 and that actually he is much more successful at the 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.440 gadgets than he is at the mind control drugs, which again, 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:36.040 as far as we know, he probably doesn't figure out. Um. Obviously, 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:38.280 a lot of this is the result of Gottlieb having 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.280 a limitless budget for research and kind of an unlimited 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.200 purview for what he can do. His friends and he 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.360 would regularly read science fiction stories and spy thrillers, and 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.160 then they'd fund experiments to try and create things inspired 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.360 by the fiction they were reading. This sometimes led to tragedy, 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:55.640 like the time the CIA funded a study at a 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.520 school in Massachusetts to feed mentally handicapped children's serial relaced 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.040 with your um. Um, that's pretty bad. That's a that's 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.800 a pretty bad thing to do. Say that sentence again. 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.200 The CIA funded a study at a school in Massachusetts 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:13.480 to feed mentally handicapped children serial laced with uranium to 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.000 what end. Well, that's a good question, Jason. The official 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.000 purpose of the study, which was also conducted at Harvard 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:23.440 again on mentally handicapped little kids, was to study whether 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:27.520 or not cereal interfered with iron and calcium uptake in children. 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:31.560 Like that is the official story. We don't know why 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:35.040 the CIA would particularly be interested in doing that. They 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.640 may have had a different reason for doing it than that, 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.920 and then come up with an excuse. We really don't know, um. 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:47.319 And the only way to find out this thing they 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:55.880 wanted to know about cereal uranium feed them radioactive serial. Okay, Yeah, 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:58.559 there's versions of this that are normal, where like people 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.240 will be given you know, radio active in like a 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:03.160 way that is not going to be harmful because it 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:05.720 like allows you to tell how stuff is passing through 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:09.200 your system. I'm not it's it's higher contrast image. It's 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:11.840 so yeah, so that it can be okay, but this 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:15.480 does this was much more harmful than that. And again 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.200 it's possible that, for whatever reason, Gottlieb actually did just 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.680 want to know does serial hurt iron and calcium uptake? 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.880 But it's one of those things. These were studies that 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:29.240 were conducted openly by the schools. It was later that 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.199 people found out the CIA was like helping to make 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.520 it happen, and we don't. We simply don't know exactly 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:40.040 why they were involved. Um So that's cool. You can 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.600 come up with your own conspiracy theories about that one. 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:47.440 Um Alan Dules remained peripherally involved, treating MK Ultra like 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:51.600 an occasional pet project. Sometimes he took it rather more seriously. 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:54.720 When his son suffered a severe head injury fighting in Korea, 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:58.640 he started talking to specialists at psychiatric clinics. This brought 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.480 him to a neurologist named Harold Wolf who worked at 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:05.079 Cornell and I'm gonna quote from Kinser's Poisoner in Chief here. 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:09.080 Wolf shared Doulus's fascination with the idea of mind control. 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:12.000 He had developed a theory woven from various disciplines that 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:14.839 a combination of drugs and sensory deprivation could wipe the 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:17.959 mind clean and then open it to reprogramming. He called 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:21.440 this human ecology. Delis thought that Wolf might be useful 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.240 to the CIA and sent him to Gotleap. Wolf was 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:28.160 eager for CIA sponsorship. He wrote several research proposals for Gotleap. 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.040 In one, he proposed placing people in isolation chambers until 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.880 they became receptive to the suggestions of the psychotherapist, showed 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.480 an increased desire to talk and to escape from the procedure, 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:39.760 and broke down to the point where doctors could create 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:43.360 psychological reactions within them. In another, he offered to test 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:50.600 special methods of interrogation, including threats, coercion, imprisonment, isolation, deprivation, humiliation, torture, brainwashing, 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:55.520 black psychiatry, hypnosis, and combinations of these with or without 0:10:55.559 --> 0:11:00.600 chemical agents. Now, if you're a psychia wrist and you 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:05.359 are offering to do something and you call it black psychiatry, 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.840 maybe you're the bad guy, right that might want that 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:14.200 might be your hint. Um. Yeah. And the funny thing is, 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:19.040 of all the things that scientology claims, yeah, the stuff 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:22.839 about the dark origins of psychiatry is the one thing 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:27.199 where they do have something that there's not nothing to it, right, Yeah, 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.880 it is there. They do not it's not it is. 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.440 It is not unfair to say that an awful lot 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:37.840 of influential psychiatrists did unspeakable things as part of a 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:41.280 government conspiracy to create mind control. That is a thing 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.480 that happened, that is documented, that is historical fact. It 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:48.920 was was maybe a little too easy to find people 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.400 who were like, yeah, of course I'll do this for 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:56.040 the country, right, sure, of course, yeah for America. UM. 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:58.840 So Wolfe told Gottlieb that he had a constant supply 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.600 of patients who he'd be happy to experiment on secretly 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.800 for the c I a UM. Gottlieb was very happy 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:06.920 to make this deal, and the CIA sent a hundred 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.520 and forty thou dollars to Cornell University officially so wolf 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.480 could study quote changes in behavior due to stress brought 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.280 about by actual loss of cerebral tissues. After a year 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.040 or so of drugging people without their consent, wolf made 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:22.920 a proposition to Gottlieb. If the CIA would fund his 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.160 creation of an institute that would act as a funding 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.719 hub for all of their in k ultra sub projects 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.040 um or he would let it. He would use it 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.359 to act as a funding hub for all their sub projects. 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.160 The Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology carried out 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.599 hundreds of sub projects for the agency. One involved a 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.600 hundred Chinese refugees who were promised fellowships to help them 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:46.719 start life in the United States. In reality, they were 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:48.800 drugged to see if they could be programmed to go 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:53.280 back to China and commit acts of terrorism. So the 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.040 book The man Charian Candidate is about a bunch of 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:58.920 like Americans who get captured by the Chinese and then 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.960 sent back to the United States having been secretly programmed 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:06.720 to do, you know, damage the United States. In reality, 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.160 the CIA read that book and then we're like, what 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:11.760 if we did that to China, wouldn't that be cool. 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.319 Let's use refugees and give them acid to see if 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:19.360 we can do this. Um, So that's neat. Jason, there 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:20.840 you go. I have no no, I have nothing to 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.600 say to that, because again, if they had just gone 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.960 to if they had just gone to this group or 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:30.400 any group this is not specific to you know, Chinese refugees, 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.679 but any group of desperate people and said hey, this 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:37.120 is what we in America call a suitcase full of cash, 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.480 which one of you in exchange for this hates your 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.240 government enough that you will go blow something up and 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.160 you will be You'll have this and this this, you 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.080 see this sports car park behind me, that will also 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.600 be yours. Uh in all of these sex workers and 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.120 we've we've hired Yeah well yeah, I mean, like again, 0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:59.600 you could appeal to like, yeah, do you want do 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.280 you want to be rich and like have access to sex, 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:04.840 or like, hey, you're probably gonna die doing this, but 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:06.960 we'll make sure your family has taken care of forever. 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:09.200 They'll move into a nice house tomorrow, they'll never have 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.160 to work again. Just go do this terrorism for us 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:14.640 over in China. Yeah, you'd find people. You don't have 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:19.320 to give them l s D. It's not going to help. Yeah, yeah, 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.640 like government again, governments have done versions of this forever 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:27.160 um without randomly dosing refugees with LSD. But that's what 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.560 the CIA does so well, and that's what Cornell University does. 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:33.440 One of the things again, one of the through lines 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:35.920 here is that an awful lot of the most prestigious 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.960 universities have highly placed faculty who are immediately like, yeah, 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:44.800 let's do it um now. While mk ultras different subprojects 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.240 were dizzying in their variety, the primary goal was always 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:52.560 very clear to develop a repeatable, efficient method of mind control. 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.520 This was expressed in various ways, the quest for a 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.080 perfect truth serum, the quest for a drug that could 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:01.680 eliminate memories or rewrite, the methods by which people could 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.320 be reprogrammed to carry out actions against their old moral 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.960 beliefs in political allegiances. Right, there's different specific projects, but 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.240 the overall goal is always the same, which is too 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.160 endo the concept of free will by turning people into 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.880 program bable machines. That's what they're trying to do, right, 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.160 Like that's a fair description, Like when you're saying, we 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:22.560 want to be able to like rewrite someone's memories and 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:26.240 make them carry out a terrorist attack against their old government, Like, 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.160 that's kind of what you're saying. But I think that 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.200 I think the listeners have the same confusion I do, 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:36.000 because there is nothing that they've seen in terms of 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.600 results up till now that we know about that has 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.240 gotten them even one percent of the way to that. 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:47.240 Because you're literally talking about having somebody carry out a 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:52.480 complex series of instructions, including being able to improvise on 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.440 the fly things that are highly motivated, highly trained person 0:15:55.480 --> 0:16:00.320 would do and doing it entirely against their will. When 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.200 the closest they've gotten up to up to now is 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:08.000 is what it's just people going crazy, people having seizures. 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.760 People like one guy we think maybe you know, went 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:13.200 and robbed a liquor store. That it wasn't like they 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:16.440 implanted that idea. Like they've been successful at making people 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:20.320 go crazy. They've been successful at making people lose their memories, 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.600 lose basic function. But in terms of saying okay, we're 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:26.800 now at a stage where we're ready to try this, 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.560 We're ready to try to turn a human into a robot. 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:34.840 It's like you have no data and no protocols or 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:40.400 no anything that even is like the beginnings of like 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:44.200 can we trick this person into preferring a different color 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.960 of shoe? Like like like wherever you would start if 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.120 you were actually using a scientific method of like building 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.240 up to this. You see I'm saying, it feels like 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.400 they're taking almost like a child's idea of how this 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:58.720 would work. It's like, Okay, we've given a bunch of 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.560 drugs to a bunch of strangers. Um, we've given some 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.760 radioactive stereal to some kids. I think now we're ready 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:07.240 to take actual human beings see if we can program 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:11.119 them to become super assessments. You know. It's one of 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.720 those were we're building to kind of the the very 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.760 murky story of what might be their greatest success. We 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:21.920 don't know. But I think one of the things that's 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:23.639 going on here, and one of the things that's in 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.240 the background of all of this, is the Manhattan Project, right, 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.280 which is a a thing that would have seemed impossible 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.800 ten years earlier. Right, that you can make something like 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.439 an atomic bomb, that you can split an atom, and 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:38.560 that you can you know, create nuclear power from this 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:40.919 as well, not just the weapon like it all is 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:46.560 this absolute sci fi thing that barely when they started 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.679 researching it. They put a shipload of money and time 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:53.080 into the Manhattan Project before they knew it was going 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:57.159 to work. Right, The c i A. Sees this project 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:01.040 the goal of perfect mind control at is a Manhattan Project. 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.560 Historian Alfred McCoy refers to it as a veritable Manhattan 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.040 Project of the mind. Right, that's how they're thinking about it. 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:10.520 So the fact that it's hard, and that they're not 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.080 having early success, and that they're they're they're burning up 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:16.480 this much money and all of these human beings to 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.760 do it. To people who are thinking about this as 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:27.000 a Manhattan Project style thing, it's not weird to them, right, um, 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:29.360 you know that is that is how they're thinking about this. 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.480 Dr Cameron's work in d patterning people over at McGill 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:37.120 University is a really good example of like the scope 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:40.440 of ambition of this project. And a paper that Cameron 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:42.480 published at the start of his work for the CIA, 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.840 he said this about the goal of his research. Quote, 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.320 if we can succeed in inventing means of changing their 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:52.480 attitudes and beliefs, we shall find ourselves in possession of 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:56.199 measures which, if wisely used, may be employed in freeing 0:18:56.240 --> 0:19:00.280 ourselves from their attitudes and beliefs. And that's a very 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:04.720 prosaic way of saying we can eliminate types of human 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.160 being and types of thought from the species. Right, that's 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:14.399 the ambition here, right. And brainwashing someone in terms of 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:19.359 like sending them to a camp to make them, you know, 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:22.200 like if they've expressed anti government attitudes and you've got 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:24.200 a method. You know, they have this in North Korea, 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:25.800 they have this all over the world where you can 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:29.720 send them off and then it's basically you you torture 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:32.920 them in various ways until they learn not to say 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.480 anything bad about the government. I don't think you've successfully 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:40.000 changed anybody's attitude. You've changed their willingness to it's like, 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.080 I don't want to come back here, so yes, I'll 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.320 say whatever you want me to say. It's just that 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:49.679 I guess they would say sameything about the mainhand project, 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.359 that like they screwed around with so many different things 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.119 and then finally they had a bomb, and if for 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:56.679 us it's going to be the same thing, like we're 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.000 gonna keep trying stuff with throwing stuff at the wall, 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.440 and then we're gonna come them across a compound or 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:06.280 a treatment or a protocol that is going to give 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:08.240 us Like it's just gonna happen. It's like it's gonna 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.399 be like our our test in the desert where the 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:12.119 first time they see the bomb glop, we're going to 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:15.640 get that perfect. It's just it feels like everything they've 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:18.600 done after this point hasn't been building toward anything. It 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:22.600 doesn't feel like they're any more sophisticated in their methods 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:25.320 this many years into it than they were when they 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.560 first started. I will say one thing about that they 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:33.200 are they do start using more outside scientists. And these 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:35.960 scientists they're not doing what White was doing, right, They 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:40.280 are actually conducting They're not like pooping and and and 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:45.600 watching this stuff. They're actually conducting experiments, um not ethical experiments. 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.479 But and you can see the CIA once they're perfect 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:50.920 mind control drug. These doctors see it as like, well, 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:53.720 if I can create, if if I can find this 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.080 drug they want, I can just tell people to stop 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:58.360 being schizophrenic or whatever, and then I'll be the man 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.280 who cured schizophrenica. You know, That's how I think they're 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:03.199 thinking about it. I think that's how a guy like 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.280 Dr Cameron is thinking about it, is I can be 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.959 the man who cured obsessive compulsive disorder, right, or cured whatever. 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:11.720 You know. To be clear, if you're a legitimate scientist 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:13.680 or a doctor that deals with the brain or mental 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:17.760 illness and this is where the funding is on this research, 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:22.280 you absolutely want in on it, like I would absolutely 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:25.880 in their position. It's like, yes, I'm also helping them 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:28.480 develop a weapon, but yes, I also potentially have the 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:32.520 cure for every bad thing that happens to the human brain. Yeah, 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:34.840 I'm gonna this is where I need to be and 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.320 this is where the funding is. I get it now, 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.280 granted when they sent me down for the meeting and 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:44.639 they say, okay, here's what we've done so far. Have 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:48.159 you heard of George White or that his name, Like, 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:51.879 here's here's some of his work, and here's some of 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:54.159 his results. You see his toilet there in his in 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.280 his martini bar he has next to it. Now, this 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:00.720 did not actually yield the results we wanted, um that 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:02.440 we just wanted to show you. We wanted to bring 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:05.280 you up to date. Yeah, this is the research so far. 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:09.080 Do you have any hints? I mean, And obviously most 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:11.399 of these guys, there's a couple who get brought into 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.160 confidence that way, most of them don't know what else 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:16.280 has been done. They don't know even there's an MK 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:18.639 that even the ones who are doing messed up stuff, 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.040 they don't know that, like my program where I'm trying 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:23.680 to break people's minds is part of this like massive 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:26.359 thing they're doing in you know, all of these black 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:28.439 sites around the world. I'm they a lot of them 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:30.800