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Speaker 1: Oh, Sophie, come on, this is it. This is a

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Speaker 1: time to celebrate. This is the longest recording session we've

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Speaker 1: ever had, five hours of c I A drug nonsense.

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Speaker 1: Here it behind the bastards. The people deserved to hear

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Speaker 1: me sing. You know, I thought, thank you, thank you

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Speaker 1: for praising me. I am lives on praise. Jason Pargeon,

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Speaker 1: how are you doing today? Well, the the vibe has

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Speaker 1: become so positive here and I'm sure it is among

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Speaker 1: the listeners too, because we now know that we're nearing

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Speaker 1: the end of the mk ulture project when everyone was

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Speaker 1: exposed and got what they deserved. Like it's been a

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Speaker 1: parade of human misery up till now that all of

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Speaker 1: the people who instigated this, like we all know, well yeah,

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Speaker 1: but this is where they all go to jail. This

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Speaker 1: is where the truth comes to light, where all the

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Speaker 1: reef forms come into play. So I know it's been

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Speaker 1: a dark few episodes up to this point, but this

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Speaker 1: is where it's like, Okay, this is the sunrise, this

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Speaker 1: is the happy ending. That's right, And and listeners, if

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Speaker 1: that doesn't wind up happening, I want to tell you

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Speaker 1: it is Jason Pargeon's fault. Personally that thanks in that way. Jason.

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Speaker 1: Before we move on, I want to let the listeners

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Speaker 1: know you are the author of a whole bunch of books,

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Speaker 1: but you have one that is just now coming out.

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Speaker 1: If this book exists, you're in the wrong universe. It

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Speaker 1: is the fourth novel in the John Dyes at the

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Speaker 1: End series, which I started reading when I was like

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Speaker 1: twelve or thirteen and has had a big impact on

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Speaker 1: my sense of humor. So I cannot recommend your books enough. Um,

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Speaker 1: you're ready to ready to close this out? Jason, Yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's do it so in between Trists and

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Speaker 1: San Francisco, UM making use of all of the sex

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Speaker 1: workers that the CIA was paying for. UM. Gottlieb massively

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Speaker 1: expanded the CIA a subcontractor program during the late nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 1: using cutouts, these little fake corporations that he would have

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Speaker 1: the agency set up create to sponsor research at a

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Speaker 1: number of different institutions that you probably know today. These

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Speaker 1: include Massachusetts General Hospital, Ionia State Hospital, Mount Sinai, several

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Speaker 1: dozen universities including Harvard, Berkeley, m I T, Stanford, and Baylor. UM.

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Speaker 1: The CIA is carrying out l D tests. They are

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Speaker 1: drugging people, torturing people, deep patterning them at many of

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Speaker 1: these different universities. Also, there's sometimes doing weirder stuff, some

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Speaker 1: of which is less horrible than some of the stuff

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Speaker 1: we've talked about today. But like if there's a big

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Speaker 1: hospital or a prominent university, the CIA was probably doing

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Speaker 1: some ship there. Um, Okay, obvious questions, did these facilities know?

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Speaker 1: Do these institutions know what was going on? The the

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Speaker 1: the employees of those institutions who are running the programs

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Speaker 1: to right these are not The CIA isn't sending agents

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Speaker 1: into Berkeley or like Baylor to to run things they are.

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Speaker 1: They are finding doctors and professors who want to carry

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Speaker 1: out research that is in line with what the CIA

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Speaker 1: wants to do, and they are paying those people. Now,

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Speaker 1: some of those professors, those researchers don't know what's the CIA,

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Speaker 1: and some of this research is stuff that isn't all

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Speaker 1: that fucked up. It's like, hey, we want to know,

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Speaker 1: you know how this um this particular pattern of electroshock

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Speaker 1: therapy might impact people with this you know condition, and

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Speaker 1: then they'll do the test and you never know. You

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Speaker 1: go the rest of your life not knowing that You

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Speaker 1: just conducted research for the CIA. Right, that is some

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Speaker 1: of this, but it's not most of this. A lot

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Speaker 1: of these doctors are perfectly aware of what they're doing

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Speaker 1: and who they're working for, as we're going to make

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Speaker 1: clear in a little bit. Um. So, Gottlei's objectives at

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Speaker 1: this point have spread well beyond where things were with

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Speaker 1: Project Artichoke. Um. During long sessions on LSD with his friends,

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Speaker 1: he gradually put together a list of the different substances

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Speaker 1: he wanted to research. He publicly this is a memo

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Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty five. It included number one substances which

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Speaker 1: will promote illogical thinking and impulsiveness to the point where

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Speaker 1: the recipient would be discredited in public. Number two substances

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Speaker 1: which increase the efficiency of mentation and perception. Number three

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Speaker 1: materials which will prevent or counteract the intoxicating effective alcohol.

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Speaker 1: Number four materials which will promote the intoxicating effective alcohol. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's just think of how such an invention would change

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Speaker 1: the world. You can get drunk on so much? Will

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Speaker 1: it be cheaper? Like? Can you imagine if just one

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Speaker 1: beer could get you as drunk as twelve beers? I

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Speaker 1: can imagine Jason, like in the movie version of this,

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Speaker 1: gott Lee like looking over as they're as they're taking

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Speaker 1: the program apart. They're burning all everything. He like operations

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Speaker 1: stronger alcohol and like files it away along with these

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Speaker 1: like last couple of cans that you see gradually like

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Speaker 1: make their way through The CIA is like underground labs

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Speaker 1: until they wind up on the shelves of a bodega

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Speaker 1: in New York City, packaged as for Logo. Yes, operation

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Speaker 1: for Loco, the CIA is greatest success. So we have

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Speaker 1: been going through San Francisco and slipping cans of four

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Speaker 1: Loco too, unbeknownst to the residents there, and observing their behavior.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like they've had three beers. It's incredible, Sydney,

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Speaker 1: you've done it again. So got Leave's wish list included

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Speaker 1: substances that would enhance the efficacy of hypnosis, drugs that

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Speaker 1: could help people avoid brainwashing, substances that could create pure

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Speaker 1: euphoria with no crash, which sounds like he just wanted

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Speaker 1: something to get high on. And here's where things get sketchy, Jason.

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Speaker 1: Substances which alter personality structure in such a way that

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Speaker 1: the tendency of the recipient to become a dependent upon

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Speaker 1: another person is enhanced. So it's a weird mix of things. Um,

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Speaker 1: that one's pretty scary, but I'm not hearing in there

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Speaker 1: is the classic Manchurian candidate thing. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: I don't does everybody listening still know that term? Like

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Speaker 1: there this is an old movie that we're referencing that's

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Speaker 1: been remade a couple of times, but it's the classic

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Speaker 1: thing of it's the brainwashed assassin, the person who doesn't

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Speaker 1: know they're an assassin, where you can literally program someone

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Speaker 1: I guess, like Arl Schwarzenegerant told recalled, like go assassinate somebody,

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Speaker 1: and then there's like a phrase it will activate them

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Speaker 1: and and like a zombie like form, they will pick

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Speaker 1: up a gun and go shoot the queen or the

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Speaker 1: president or whatever. And it's important to note, Jason, I

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Speaker 1: kind of I probably should have made this more of

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Speaker 1: a factor in the script. The book The man charryan

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Speaker 1: candidate and like the movie have a big impact on

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Speaker 1: this program a lot of Like when that comes out,

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Speaker 1: it gets them like another wave of interest, and like

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Speaker 1: Dullis or I think I'm not sure if Dullis is

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Speaker 1: around with them, but like they and this is like

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Speaker 1: a regular thing for the CIA, because Leab the thing

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Speaker 1: he does after him k Ultra is he's the CIA's

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Speaker 1: gadget man for years, He's making anything they need, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of times someone will come to him because

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Speaker 1: they've seen something in a James Bond movie and will

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Speaker 1: just be like, Hey, Sydney, can we actually like make this, Like, Sydney,

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Speaker 1: can you put a gun in like a Rolex watch

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Speaker 1: for me? Hey, Sydney, can we like bulletproof a car

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Speaker 1: like this? You know? Like that's actually how a lot

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Speaker 1: of this does this? This does work, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: and that actually he is much more successful at the

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Speaker 1: gadgets than he is at the mind control drugs, which again,

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Speaker 1: as far as we know, he probably doesn't figure out. Um. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: a lot of this is the result of Gottlieb having

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Speaker 1: a limitless budget for research and kind of an unlimited

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Speaker 1: purview for what he can do. His friends and he

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Speaker 1: would regularly read science fiction stories and spy thrillers, and

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Speaker 1: then they'd fund experiments to try and create things inspired

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Speaker 1: by the fiction they were reading. This sometimes led to tragedy,

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Speaker 1: like the time the CIA funded a study at a

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Speaker 1: school in Massachusetts to feed mentally handicapped children's serial relaced

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Speaker 1: with your um. Um, that's pretty bad. That's a that's

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Speaker 1: a pretty bad thing to do. Say that sentence again.

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Speaker 1: The CIA funded a study at a school in Massachusetts

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Speaker 1: to feed mentally handicapped children serial laced with uranium to

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Speaker 1: what end. Well, that's a good question, Jason. The official

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Speaker 1: purpose of the study, which was also conducted at Harvard

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Speaker 1: again on mentally handicapped little kids, was to study whether

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Speaker 1: or not cereal interfered with iron and calcium uptake in children.

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Speaker 1: Like that is the official story. We don't know why

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Speaker 1: the CIA would particularly be interested in doing that. They

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Speaker 1: may have had a different reason for doing it than that,

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Speaker 1: and then come up with an excuse. We really don't know, um.

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Speaker 1: And the only way to find out this thing they

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Speaker 1: wanted to know about cereal uranium feed them radioactive serial. Okay, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's versions of this that are normal, where like people

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Speaker 1: will be given you know, radio active in like a

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Speaker 1: way that is not going to be harmful because it

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Speaker 1: like allows you to tell how stuff is passing through

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Speaker 1: your system. I'm not it's it's higher contrast image. It's

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Speaker 1: so yeah, so that it can be okay, but this

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Speaker 1: does this was much more harmful than that. And again

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Speaker 1: it's possible that, for whatever reason, Gottlieb actually did just

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Speaker 1: want to know does serial hurt iron and calcium uptake?

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Speaker 1: But it's one of those things. These were studies that

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Speaker 1: were conducted openly by the schools. It was later that

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Speaker 1: people found out the CIA was like helping to make

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Speaker 1: it happen, and we don't. We simply don't know exactly

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Speaker 1: why they were involved. Um So that's cool. You can

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Speaker 1: come up with your own conspiracy theories about that one.

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Speaker 1: Um Alan Dules remained peripherally involved, treating MK Ultra like

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Speaker 1: an occasional pet project. Sometimes he took it rather more seriously.

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Speaker 1: When his son suffered a severe head injury fighting in Korea,

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Speaker 1: he started talking to specialists at psychiatric clinics. This brought

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Speaker 1: him to a neurologist named Harold Wolf who worked at

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Speaker 1: Cornell and I'm gonna quote from Kinser's Poisoner in Chief here.

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Speaker 1: Wolf shared Doulus's fascination with the idea of mind control.

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Speaker 1: He had developed a theory woven from various disciplines that

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Speaker 1: a combination of drugs and sensory deprivation could wipe the

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Speaker 1: mind clean and then open it to reprogramming. He called

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Speaker 1: this human ecology. Delis thought that Wolf might be useful

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Speaker 1: to the CIA and sent him to Gotleap. Wolf was

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Speaker 1: eager for CIA sponsorship. He wrote several research proposals for Gotleap.

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Speaker 1: In one, he proposed placing people in isolation chambers until

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Speaker 1: they became receptive to the suggestions of the psychotherapist, showed

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Speaker 1: an increased desire to talk and to escape from the procedure,

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Speaker 1: and broke down to the point where doctors could create

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Speaker 1: psychological reactions within them. In another, he offered to test

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Speaker 1: special methods of interrogation, including threats, coercion, imprisonment, isolation, deprivation, humiliation, torture, brainwashing,

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Speaker 1: black psychiatry, hypnosis, and combinations of these with or without

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Speaker 1: chemical agents. Now, if you're a psychia wrist and you

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Speaker 1: are offering to do something and you call it black psychiatry,

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Speaker 1: maybe you're the bad guy, right that might want that

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Speaker 1: might be your hint. Um. Yeah. And the funny thing is,

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Speaker 1: of all the things that scientology claims, yeah, the stuff

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Speaker 1: about the dark origins of psychiatry is the one thing

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Speaker 1: where they do have something that there's not nothing to it, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is there. They do not it's not it is.

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Speaker 1: It is not unfair to say that an awful lot

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Speaker 1: of influential psychiatrists did unspeakable things as part of a

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Speaker 1: government conspiracy to create mind control. That is a thing

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Speaker 1: that happened, that is documented, that is historical fact. It

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Speaker 1: was was maybe a little too easy to find people

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Speaker 1: who were like, yeah, of course I'll do this for

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Speaker 1: the country, right, sure, of course, yeah for America. UM.

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Speaker 1: So Wolfe told Gottlieb that he had a constant supply

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Speaker 1: of patients who he'd be happy to experiment on secretly

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Speaker 1: for the c I a UM. Gottlieb was very happy

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Speaker 1: to make this deal, and the CIA sent a hundred

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Speaker 1: and forty thou dollars to Cornell University officially so wolf

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Speaker 1: could study quote changes in behavior due to stress brought

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Speaker 1: about by actual loss of cerebral tissues. After a year

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Speaker 1: or so of drugging people without their consent, wolf made

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Speaker 1: a proposition to Gottlieb. If the CIA would fund his

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Speaker 1: creation of an institute that would act as a funding

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Speaker 1: hub for all of their in k ultra sub projects

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Speaker 1: um or he would let it. He would use it

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Speaker 1: to act as a funding hub for all their sub projects.

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Speaker 1: The Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology carried out

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Speaker 1: hundreds of sub projects for the agency. One involved a

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Speaker 1: hundred Chinese refugees who were promised fellowships to help them

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Speaker 1: start life in the United States. In reality, they were

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Speaker 1: drugged to see if they could be programmed to go

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Speaker 1: back to China and commit acts of terrorism. So the

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Speaker 1: book The man Charian Candidate is about a bunch of

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Speaker 1: like Americans who get captured by the Chinese and then

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Speaker 1: sent back to the United States having been secretly programmed

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Speaker 1: to do, you know, damage the United States. In reality,

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Speaker 1: the CIA read that book and then we're like, what

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Speaker 1: if we did that to China, wouldn't that be cool.

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Speaker 1: Let's use refugees and give them acid to see if

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Speaker 1: we can do this. Um, So that's neat. Jason, there

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Speaker 1: you go. I have no no, I have nothing to

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Speaker 1: say to that, because again, if they had just gone

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Speaker 1: to if they had just gone to this group or

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Speaker 1: any group this is not specific to you know, Chinese refugees,

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Speaker 1: but any group of desperate people and said hey, this

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Speaker 1: is what we in America call a suitcase full of cash,

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Speaker 1: which one of you in exchange for this hates your

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Speaker 1: government enough that you will go blow something up and

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Speaker 1: you will be You'll have this and this this, you

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Speaker 1: see this sports car park behind me, that will also

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Speaker 1: be yours. Uh in all of these sex workers and

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Speaker 1: we've we've hired Yeah well yeah, I mean, like again,

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Speaker 1: you could appeal to like, yeah, do you want do

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Speaker 1: you want to be rich and like have access to sex,

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Speaker 1: or like, hey, you're probably gonna die doing this, but

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Speaker 1: we'll make sure your family has taken care of forever.

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Speaker 1: They'll move into a nice house tomorrow, they'll never have

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Speaker 1: to work again. Just go do this terrorism for us

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Speaker 1: over in China. Yeah, you'd find people. You don't have

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Speaker 1: to give them l s D. It's not going to help. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like government again, governments have done versions of this forever

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Speaker 1: um without randomly dosing refugees with LSD. But that's what

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Speaker 1: the CIA does so well, and that's what Cornell University does.

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Speaker 1: One of the things again, one of the through lines

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Speaker 1: here is that an awful lot of the most prestigious

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Speaker 1: universities have highly placed faculty who are immediately like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's do it um now. While mk ultras different subprojects

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Speaker 1: were dizzying in their variety, the primary goal was always

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Speaker 1: very clear to develop a repeatable, efficient method of mind control.

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Speaker 1: This was expressed in various ways, the quest for a

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Speaker 1: perfect truth serum, the quest for a drug that could

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Speaker 1: eliminate memories or rewrite, the methods by which people could

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Speaker 1: be reprogrammed to carry out actions against their old moral

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Speaker 1: beliefs in political allegiances. Right, there's different specific projects, but

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Speaker 1: the overall goal is always the same, which is too

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Speaker 1: endo the concept of free will by turning people into

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Speaker 1: program bable machines. That's what they're trying to do, right,

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Speaker 1: Like that's a fair description, Like when you're saying, we

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Speaker 1: want to be able to like rewrite someone's memories and

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Speaker 1: make them carry out a terrorist attack against their old government, Like,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of what you're saying. But I think that

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Speaker 1: I think the listeners have the same confusion I do,

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Speaker 1: because there is nothing that they've seen in terms of

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Speaker 1: results up till now that we know about that has

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Speaker 1: gotten them even one percent of the way to that.

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Speaker 1: Because you're literally talking about having somebody carry out a

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Speaker 1: complex series of instructions, including being able to improvise on

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Speaker 1: the fly things that are highly motivated, highly trained person

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Speaker 1: would do and doing it entirely against their will. When

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Speaker 1: the closest they've gotten up to up to now is

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Speaker 1: is what it's just people going crazy, people having seizures.

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Speaker 1: People like one guy we think maybe you know, went

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Speaker 1: and robbed a liquor store. That it wasn't like they

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Speaker 1: implanted that idea. Like they've been successful at making people

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Speaker 1: go crazy. They've been successful at making people lose their memories,

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Speaker 1: lose basic function. But in terms of saying okay, we're

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Speaker 1: now at a stage where we're ready to try this,

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Speaker 1: We're ready to try to turn a human into a robot.

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Speaker 1: It's like you have no data and no protocols or

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Speaker 1: no anything that even is like the beginnings of like

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Speaker 1: can we trick this person into preferring a different color

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Speaker 1: of shoe? Like like like wherever you would start if

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Speaker 1: you were actually using a scientific method of like building

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Speaker 1: up to this. You see I'm saying, it feels like

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Speaker 1: they're taking almost like a child's idea of how this

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Speaker 1: would work. It's like, Okay, we've given a bunch of

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Speaker 1: drugs to a bunch of strangers. Um, we've given some

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Speaker 1: radioactive stereal to some kids. I think now we're ready

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Speaker 1: to take actual human beings see if we can program

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Speaker 1: them to become super assessments. You know. It's one of

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Speaker 1: those were we're building to kind of the the very

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Speaker 1: murky story of what might be their greatest success. We

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Speaker 1: don't know. But I think one of the things that's

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Speaker 1: going on here, and one of the things that's in

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Speaker 1: the background of all of this, is the Manhattan Project, right,

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Speaker 1: which is a a thing that would have seemed impossible

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Speaker 1: ten years earlier. Right, that you can make something like

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Speaker 1: an atomic bomb, that you can split an atom, and

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Speaker 1: that you can you know, create nuclear power from this

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Speaker 1: as well, not just the weapon like it all is

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Speaker 1: this absolute sci fi thing that barely when they started

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Speaker 1: researching it. They put a shipload of money and time

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Speaker 1: into the Manhattan Project before they knew it was going

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Speaker 1: to work. Right, The c i A. Sees this project

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Speaker 1: the goal of perfect mind control at is a Manhattan Project.

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Speaker 1: Historian Alfred McCoy refers to it as a veritable Manhattan

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Speaker 1: Project of the mind. Right, that's how they're thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that it's hard, and that they're not

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Speaker 1: having early success, and that they're they're they're burning up

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Speaker 1: this much money and all of these human beings to

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Speaker 1: do it. To people who are thinking about this as

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Speaker 1: a Manhattan Project style thing, it's not weird to them, right, um,

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Speaker 1: you know that is that is how they're thinking about this.

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Speaker 1: Dr Cameron's work in d patterning people over at McGill

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Speaker 1: University is a really good example of like the scope

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Speaker 1: of ambition of this project. And a paper that Cameron

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Speaker 1: published at the start of his work for the CIA,

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Speaker 1: he said this about the goal of his research. Quote,

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Speaker 1: if we can succeed in inventing means of changing their

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Speaker 1: attitudes and beliefs, we shall find ourselves in possession of

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Speaker 1: measures which, if wisely used, may be employed in freeing

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Speaker 1: ourselves from their attitudes and beliefs. And that's a very

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Speaker 1: prosaic way of saying we can eliminate types of human

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Speaker 1: being and types of thought from the species. Right, that's

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Speaker 1: the ambition here, right. And brainwashing someone in terms of

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Speaker 1: like sending them to a camp to make them, you know,

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Speaker 1: like if they've expressed anti government attitudes and you've got

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Speaker 1: a method. You know, they have this in North Korea,

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Speaker 1: they have this all over the world where you can

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Speaker 1: send them off and then it's basically you you torture

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Speaker 1: them in various ways until they learn not to say

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Speaker 1: anything bad about the government. I don't think you've successfully

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Speaker 1: changed anybody's attitude. You've changed their willingness to it's like,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to come back here, so yes, I'll

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Speaker 1: say whatever you want me to say. It's just that

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Speaker 1: I guess they would say sameything about the mainhand project,

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Speaker 1: that like they screwed around with so many different things

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Speaker 1: and then finally they had a bomb, and if for

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Speaker 1: us it's going to be the same thing, like we're

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Speaker 1: gonna keep trying stuff with throwing stuff at the wall,

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Speaker 1: and then we're gonna come them across a compound or

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Speaker 1: a treatment or a protocol that is going to give

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Speaker 1: us Like it's just gonna happen. It's like it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be like our our test in the desert where the

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Speaker 1: first time they see the bomb glop, we're going to

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Speaker 1: get that perfect. It's just it feels like everything they've

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Speaker 1: done after this point hasn't been building toward anything. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel like they're any more sophisticated in their methods

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Speaker 1: this many years into it than they were when they

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Speaker 1: first started. I will say one thing about that they

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Speaker 1: are they do start using more outside scientists. And these

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Speaker 1: scientists they're not doing what White was doing, right, They

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Speaker 1: are actually conducting They're not like pooping and and and

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Speaker 1: watching this stuff. They're actually conducting experiments, um not ethical experiments.

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Speaker 1: But and you can see the CIA once they're perfect

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Speaker 1: mind control drug. These doctors see it as like, well,

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Speaker 1: if I can create, if if I can find this

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Speaker 1: drug they want, I can just tell people to stop

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Speaker 1: being schizophrenic or whatever, and then I'll be the man

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Speaker 1: who cured schizophrenica. You know, That's how I think they're

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Speaker 1: thinking about it. I think that's how a guy like

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Speaker 1: Dr Cameron is thinking about it, is I can be

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Speaker 1: the man who cured obsessive compulsive disorder, right, or cured whatever.

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Speaker 1: You know. To be clear, if you're a legitimate scientist

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Speaker 1: or a doctor that deals with the brain or mental

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Speaker 1: illness and this is where the funding is on this research,

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Speaker 1: you absolutely want in on it, like I would absolutely

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Speaker 1: in their position. It's like, yes, I'm also helping them

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Speaker 1: develop a weapon, but yes, I also potentially have the

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Speaker 1: cure for every bad thing that happens to the human brain. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna this is where I need to be and

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Speaker 1: this is where the funding is. I get it now,

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Speaker 1: granted when they sent me down for the meeting and

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Speaker 1: they say, okay, here's what we've done so far. Have

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Speaker 1: you heard of George White or that his name, Like,

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Speaker 1: here's here's some of his work, and here's some of

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Speaker 1: his results. You see his toilet there in his in

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Speaker 1: his martini bar he has next to it. Now, this

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Speaker 1: did not actually yield the results we wanted, um that

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Speaker 1: we just wanted to show you. We wanted to bring

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Speaker 1: you up to date. Yeah, this is the research so far.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any hints? I mean, And obviously most

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Speaker 1: of these guys, there's a couple who get brought into

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Speaker 1: confidence that way, most of them don't know what else

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Speaker 1: has been done. They don't know even there's an MK

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Speaker 1: that even the ones who are doing messed up stuff,

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Speaker 1: they don't know that, like my program where I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to break people's minds is part of this like massive

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Speaker 1: thing they're doing in you know, all of these black

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Speaker 1: sites around the world. I'm they a lot of them

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Speaker 1: probably think I'm the only one doing this research, right,

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Speaker 1: and the CIA is the only one who will fund

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Speaker 1: it and it's so important that you know, a number

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Speaker 1: of things are happening here. Um, but yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: I mean, the thing that's scariest to me is that

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Speaker 1: stuff that Cameron says about like we we can free

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Speaker 1: ourselves from their attitudes and beliefs that like because a

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Speaker 1: lot of these guys, a lot of this is out

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Speaker 1: of anti communism, right. It's not not a thing that

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Speaker 1: like we want a drug that we can give people

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Speaker 1: to make them not be communists. Um, you know, and

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Speaker 1: then maybe we can make them you know, double agents

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Speaker 1: and stuff. But like the idea, the idea of wanting

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Speaker 1: to like rewrite people's thoughts at that level, which is

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Speaker 1: their expressed goal, is the scariest thing about this. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things that's like most unsettling is we

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Speaker 1: don't a dent know where the research ended. And this

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Speaker 1: brings me to the most unsettling story in the series. Jesus. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but before we do that, you know what isn't unsettling

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Speaker 1: the products and services who support this podcast, none of

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Speaker 1: whom is looking for a way to destroy the concept.

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Speaker 1: We know it cannot say that though they're not I said,

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Speaker 1: they're not looking for a way to do that, Sophie.

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Speaker 1: You can't. They're not as far as you know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we don't pick most of our sponsors and actually has

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Speaker 1: advertised on this podcast. Um, so I don't know. Uh yes,

427
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: just like the CIA. Ah, we're back talking about the agency.

428
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: So Jason, I promised you I'm going to tell you

429
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 1: the most unsettling story in this series. Now, this is

430
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: going to be kind of unclear. I do not have

431
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,719
Speaker 1: perfect answers to you as to what is going on.

432
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to read you the facts of

433
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 1: this case as they exist, and then we will talk

434
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: about what might have happened here. So this is the

435
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: story of Dr Lewis Jolly and West. Jolly was his nickname.

436
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,640
Speaker 1: He was the head of psychiatric services at Lackland Air

437
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: Force Base for much of the nineteen fifties, and as

438
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 1: you probably guessed, he was also a c I A asset.

439
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: Born in nineteen twenty four, Jolly West, as his friends

440
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: knew him, had enlisted in the Air Force for World

441
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 1: War Two and retired as a colonel. He was a big,

442
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: friendly man and when he left the flag, Jolly West,

443
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,360
Speaker 1: Jolly West, Baby. Yeah, he's a jolly man. He goes

444
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: to Cornell to follow up on his fascination with different

445
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: methods of controlling the behavior of human beings. He wound

446
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 1: up being one of the shrinks who worked with POW's

447
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: captured in Korea. Right, you know those guys we talked

448
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 1: about earlier who claimed to have dropped biological weapons, right

449
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 1: that the CIA thinks they've been brainwashed. Jolly West is

450
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: the guy that the psychiatrists the CIA brings into debrief them, right,

451
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: and he succeeds in kind of quote unquote deep programming

452
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: those men. He gets them to renounce the claims they'd

453
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 1: made while being captured, which he gets big kudos from

454
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: the CIA for this. You might not You might say, well,

455
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 1: that's not really that impressed if they were just like

456
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: beaten until they said they dropped chemical weapons, and then

457
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: he was like, hey, guys, you're in America now, you

458
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: should probably tell people you didn't. Is maybe not the

459
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: hardest thing in the world, right, but whatever, He gets

460
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: a lot of credit for d programming these guys. So

461
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 1: thanks to letters between West and Gottlieb, which we acquired

462
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: after West's death, we know that both men started working

463
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 1: together in nineteen fifty three and I'm gonna quote now

464
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: from the intercept addressing Gottlieb as SG West outlined the

465
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: experiments he proposed to perform using a combination of psychotropic

466
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: drugs and hypnosis. He began with a plan to discover

467
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: the degree to which information can be extracted from presumably

468
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: unwilling subjects through hallus hypnosis alone or in combination with

469
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: certain drugs, possibly with subsequent amnesia for the interrogation or

470
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: the alteration of the subset subjects recollection of the information

471
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: he formerly knew. Another item proposed honing techniques for implanting

472
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: false information into particular subjects or for inducing in them

473
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: specific mental disorders. He hoped to create careers who would

474
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: carry a long and complex message imbreaded secretly in their minds,

475
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 1: and to study the induction of trans like states by drugs.

476
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 1: So he's not just wanting to make a mind. He

477
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: wants to number one, induce mental illness and people. He

478
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: wants to see if he can do that. He wants

479
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: to create memories and destroy them. Um. He's he's interested

480
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 1: in experimenting with all of that, and obviously Gottlieb is

481
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: completely on board with this. Um. In nineteen fifty six,

482
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 1: West reported to Gotlieb that his experiment had come to fruition.

483
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: In a paper titled the psycho Physiological Studies of Hypnosis

484
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: and Suggestibility, he claimed to have discovered a replicable method

485
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 1: of replacing true memories with false ones in human beings

486
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: without their knowledge. Quote. It has been found to be

487
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: feasible to take the memory of a definite event in

488
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: the life of an individual, and, through hypnotic suggestion, bring

489
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: about the subsequent conscious recall to the effect that this

490
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: event never actually took place, but that a different fictional

491
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: event actually did occur. West claimed to have accomplished this

492
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: by giving patients new drugs, which ones was not specified

493
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: in the papers that we have. These drugs were apparently

494
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: effective in quote speeding the induction of the hypnotic state

495
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: and deepening the hypnotic trance. Specific information is again impossible

496
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: to find here. The version of the study found in

497
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: West's papers is longer and more detailed. This was found

498
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: years after his death. He was not supposed to have

499
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: kept this a c the CIA before these. This version

500
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 1: is found since a copy of this study to a

501
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: Senate committee when they start investigating M. K Ultra, and

502
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: the copy the CIA has is missing a bunch of

503
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: stuff that's later found in the copy that's in Jolly

504
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,479
Speaker 1: West's memoires, right, like that's in his collection of stuff.

505
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: Um So, the CIA's version of this that they actually

506
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: send to that Senate committee cuts out any mention of

507
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: West's claims to have found a way to replace real

508
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: memories with fake ones. And it also adds in a

509
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: passage that's not in West's draft, which reads the effects

510
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: of LSD and other drugs upon the production, maintenance and

511
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,479
Speaker 1: manifestations of disassociated states has never been studied. Now we

512
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 1: know that this is untrue, but that begs the question,

513
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: what did Dr West actually find? Now We're not going

514
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: to get an answer to that today, But I do

515
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: have a story that is going to make you feel bad.

516
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: On July four, ninety four, in San Antonio, a three

517
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: year old girl named share Joe Horton was raped and murdered.

518
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: When her parents noticed her missing, they formed a search party.

519
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: They eventually found her body next to a gravel pit

520
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: alongside a shirtless man covered in blood and scratches. He

521
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: was described as seeming dazed and in a trance like state.

522
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: The man eventually charged with and convicted of chair Joe

523
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: Horton's murder was a guy named Jimmy Shaver. He was

524
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: an airman at Lackland Air Force Base with no criminal record.

525
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: Shaver claimed no memory of the murder, and here's the

526
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: intercept again. Around four that morning, an Air Force marshal

527
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: questioned Shaver and two doctors examined him, agreeing he wasn't drunk.

528
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: One leader testified that he probably was not normal. He

529
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: was very composed outside, which I did not expect him

530
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: to be under these circumstances. He was released to the

531
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: county jail and booked for rape and murder. Investigators interrogated

532
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: Shaver through the morning. When his wife came to visit,

533
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,479
Speaker 1: he didn't recognize her. He gave his first statement at

534
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: ten thirty a m adamant that another man was responsible.

535
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: He could summon an image of a stranger with blonde

536
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: hair and tattoos. After the Air Force marshal returned to

537
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: the jail house, however, Shaver signed a second statement, taking

538
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,479
Speaker 1: full responsibility. Though he still didn't remember any thing, he

539
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: reasoned he must have done it. Two months later, AIRMoN

540
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: Shaver still reported no memories of the murder. The commander

541
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: of the base hospital ordered him evaluated. Said evaluation was

542
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: performed by the head of psychiatric Services for Lackland, Dr

543
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: Lewis Jolly and West. Shaver and West spent two weeks

544
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: together the return to the scene of the crime, and

545
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: West eventually hypnotized Shaver and injected him with sodium pentathal

546
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: to clear his amnesia. Event Eventually, well drugged, Shaver recalled

547
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: remembering the act of murdering Horton. He told doctor West

548
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: that the little girl had brought out repressed memories of

549
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,719
Speaker 1: his own cousin, who he said had molested him when

550
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: he was a child. Later, Shaver took back this confession. Eventually,

551
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: segments of West's drugged interview with Shaver were read into

552
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: the court record. The doctor had used leading questions to

553
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: walk the entranced Shaver through the crime. Tell me about

554
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: when you took your clothes off, Jimmy, He'd said. The

555
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: transcript of the interview, which survived among West's papers, also

556
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: showed West trying to prove that Shaver had repressed memories. Jimmy,

557
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: do you remember when something like this happened before or

558
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: after you took her clothes off? What did you do?

559
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: I never did take her close off. Shaver said. The

560
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: interview was divided into thirds and the middle third hadn't

561
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: been recorded. When the transcript picked up, it said, Shaver

562
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: is crying. He has been confronted with all the facts repeatedly.

563
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: West asked, now you remember it all, don't you, Jimmy, yes,

564
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: Sir Shava replied. So we don't know precisely what happened here.

565
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: We know that a young girl was murdered. We know

566
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: that a guy who claimed no memory of the murder

567
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: um confessed and then took back his confession, and then

568
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,239
Speaker 1: sat down with the guy who has claimed that he

569
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: can create false memories and people and remove actual memories,

570
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: and then temporarily comes forward and says that he did it,

571
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,959
Speaker 1: but never really seems to have any memory of it,

572
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: and eventually recants that confession. Um. Now, at the time,

573
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: there's nothing known publicly about the mk Ultra program, but

574
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: shavers lawyers did learn that earlier before the murder, he

575
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: had suffered from migraines that had debilitated him enough that

576
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: the Air Force had recommended him for a two year

577
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: experimental program at Lackland Air Base. This program would have

578
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: been run from the same facilities where doctor West did

579
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: his research for the CIA. There is no record of

580
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: what doctor had attempted to recruit Shaver, and there's no

581
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: record of Shaver in the Lackland Hospital official Master Index

582
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: of patients. Right, so there's no evidence that he went

583
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: into Lackland Hospital and was treated prior to the murder

584
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: for his headaches. However, the index that would include his

585
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: patient record is incomplete. The base archivist told the court

586
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: that all records for patients in nineteen fifty four with

587
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: last names beginning with s A through ST had been destroyed.

588
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: There was no explanation for why this had happened. Shaver

589
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: was sentenced to death and eventually executed by the state.

590
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: Here's the thing. I don't think the spiracy version of

591
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: this requires anything advanced or magical, or doesn't it is

592
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: if they did exactly what we've already seen them do.

593
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: Where do they just break people down to where all

594
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: of their normal executive functions have ceased through just sleep

595
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: deprivation or traumatizing them over and over again or whatever. Again,

596
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: it's not difficult to do this, um and then the

597
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: guy went out and did like It doesn't require them

598
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: to program him to go out and kill. It just

599
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: requires them to whatever failed treatments they gave him to

600
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: have just screwed up his head to the point where

601
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: he no longer was in control of his actions, similar

602
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,239
Speaker 1: to the guy that thought that he, you know, had

603
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: spontaneously robbed a liquor store. Because once you remove the

604
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: frontal lobes ability to govern your actions, you just start

605
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: doing weird stuff. And you know, whatever is in your

606
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: subconscious or whatever primal urge that a person has um

607
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: it just doesn't take sophisticated mind control to make that happen.

608
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: It just you mess up enough people over a long

609
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: enough period that somebody's going to go out and commit

610
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 1: a murder or beat someone to death, or get into

611
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: a fight at a bar. It's just this particular guy,

612
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: if that's what happened, he just acted on some urge

613
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: and they probably the girl was just a target of opportunity.

614
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: She was just small enough and defenseless enough that and

615
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: we don't even know. I mean, it's entirely possible that

616
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 1: she was murdered by someone else who doesn't get caught,

617
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: and he's just someone that this doctor is working with

618
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: who is being dosed around the time, and who they're like,

619
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: I wonder if we can convince him he did it.

620
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: You know, that is not beyond the pale for what

621
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: it does. It also does not require them to have

622
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 1: figured out a mind control drug. It's certainly not beyond

623
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: the pale of the stuff they've done. Yeah, by the way,

624
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: getting confessions out of people is nothing like the the

625
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: whole era of the and going back and checking for crimes,

626
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: like we found something like in a third of the

627
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: cases where they exonerated people, they had confessions. Yeah, they

628
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: confess to a crime they didn't commit. That happened instantly,

629
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 1: and again doesn't so whatever happened, And again we don't

630
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: know exactly what went down here, like and we never

631
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: will for reasons I'll get to. But like something bad,

632
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 1: I feel confident saying that. And when we talk about

633
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: there's obviously there's a more conspiratorial version, like we could

634
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,399
Speaker 1: we could turn this into a slightly different podcast and say,

635
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: this is clear evidence that the c I developed a

636
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: mind control poison, right, um, And if you want to

637
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: take that, there's all these little facts that you can

638
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: use to like make put together what seems like a

639
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: more convincing conspiracy theory case for example, Jason in nineteen

640
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 1: sixty three, immediately after the Kennedy assassination, there's a psychiatrist

641
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: who gets brought in to examine Jack Ruby, the guy

642
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: who had murdered Lee Harvey Oswald, and it's Dr Jolly

643
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: and West. Now West speaks to Ruby right before he's

644
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: testifies to the War in Commission, and he tells him

645
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: that Ruby suffered an acute psychotic break and Ruby is

646
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: never able to form to fully explain to the commission

647
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: why he chose to assassinate Oswald. You can make a

648
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: bunch of conspiracies about that. There's also the thing that

649
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: makes total sense, which is, well, back when those fucking

650
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: pilots got brought back having been like brainwashed or whatever,

651
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: Jolly's the guy they sent in to talk to him.

652
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: It's not unreasonable that you would assume that maybe a

653
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: foreign power was responsible for something to do with the

654
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 1: JFK assassination. So the CIA is going to send in

655
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 1: the guy they normally send in to talk to people

656
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: in this situation, and Jolly has a history doing that, right.

657
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that Ruby was like a programmed c I,

658
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: A L. S. D assassin um. But all of this

659
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: stuff is just close enough that like you get part

660
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 1: of like why conspiracy culture becomes the thing that it

661
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: is that is such a problem for all of us,

662
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: is there's a lot of reasons to ben spiratorial, particularly

663
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: about this period in American history, right, Like, it's not

664
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 1: it's not you're not like doing something unreasonable. If you're like, well, shit,

665
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: maybe they did figure out something, right, Like, there's all

666
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: these little pieces of fucked up stuff here, and we

667
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: know what they were trying to do, and a lot

668
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: of a lot of the Q and on terrible stuff

669
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: that's going around today that's causing so much of a

670
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: fucking catastrophic problem for a society. Part of why that

671
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: is so effective and able to spread so much is

672
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: this all of this ship seeds the ground, right, it

673
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: provides they've provided a fertile environment for which, well, nothing

674
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: is impossible, nothing is beyond the kind of ship our

675
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: government might try to do. Right, It's not like I

676
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: think that's that's one of them maybe unrecognized crimes of

677
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: the n k Ultra program is they're going to provide

678
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: justification for a thousand conspiracy movements because how fucked up

679
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: the ship they're trying to do is even if they

680
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: never accomplished any of it, right, And the issue with

681
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: the usually the issue with conspiracies that they is that

682
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: they assume a much higher level of competence and precision

683
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: and everything else than what you actually get. For example,

684
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 1: if if we only had a gap where that guy's

685
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: um the toilet sex dungeon was, there have been a

686
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,919
Speaker 1: conspiracy coming up suggesting that that had occurred. I would

687
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: have no problem with that because it's like, yeah, I

688
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: can see this getting out of hand. There's no one,

689
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: there's no grown ups in the room, so yeah, I

690
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: can believe the rumors that this guy had a toilet

691
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: Martini sex dungeine going on with CIA money, because that's

692
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: the kind of thing people do. The issue is that

693
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: it almost ascribes, it almost gives them too much credit

694
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: to where if you see something like the JFK s astination,

695
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,439
Speaker 1: you say, oh, I'll bet Oswald was actually a world

696
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: because the reality is that there were failures in terms

697
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: of security, in terms of the protocols they're following, in

698
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: terms of like everything that a man like Kennedy that

699
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 1: the whole world can pivot on one frankly kind of

700
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: a dumbass with a gun who just happens to be

701
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: a good shot. Yeah, and that like Jack Ruby, that

702
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: appears was an even bigger dumbass who actually made the

703
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: decision to shoot Oswald as like a spontaneous like you

704
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: just ran home and got his gun and decided to

705
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 1: do it. Like it wasn't even a planned thing as

706
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: far as I could tell, it was just it was

707
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: just a local dumbass who thought, hey, I'll go shoot

708
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: Oswald and that was and then again he changed history

709
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: because that launched a whole universe of its own conspiracy theories.

710
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that people want to believe

711
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: it's weird because they want to believe the CIA is

712
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: almost like godlike invisibilities, that it can work magic, that

713
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: they can do things that is that are totally unknown

714
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 1: to science. And when you find out the reality, it's

715
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: almost disappointing, even though the things they are actually guilty

716
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: of horrible, Yeah, are worse because it was done. What's so,

717
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 1: it was done so irresponsibly and with such a lack

718
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 1: of care, where you would almost prefer a bond villain

719
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: that's trying to do that's, you know, trying to pull

720
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: the string. It's like, no, the actual things that that

721
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: we've done in Central America elsewhere. It doesn't require a

722
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: sophisticated master plan. It just requires you know, the fruit

723
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: company saying, hey, the locals are trying to unionize, as

724
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: we've as we keep saying. The only thing necessary here

725
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: is not deep, like incredibly complicated conspiracies including magical mind

726
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: control drugs. It's money and willingness to hurt people. Yeah,

727
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 1: it's very powerful people saying hey, this is gonna lower

728
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: our stock price by several points unless unless this guy

729
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: who's threatening to become president and this unless something bad

730
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: happens to him, and it doesn't require you know, a

731
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: mind controlled assassin. The old ways work just fine. Propaganda

732
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 1: still works, Bribing the right people still works. Killing the

733
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: right people works really well. That's the best way to

734
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 1: do it, which is actually Jason leads me to our

735
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: sponsor for this episode, because you know, when you need

736
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: the right person killed, um, you know, the president of

737
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: Chile for example, no one can do it better than

738
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 1: the sponsors for this podcast. Where is fiber is still

739
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: a thing? Yeah, five, that's what's gonna be. The next

740
00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: government overthrown is through fucking fiber. Um it is we're

741
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: like when it comes to like incompetent cia ship. One

742
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: of the reasons why I'm willing to like, yeah, I

743
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: think maybe that attempt by those weird US contractor guys

744
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: to overthrow the government of Venezuela might have been a

745
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: cia op is that it ended with them all pissing

746
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: on themselves after getting captured by fishermen, like like, they're

747
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: just not They're not. They they succeed because they have

748
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 1: infinite resources a lot of the time, but it's not

749
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: because they're the most competent people in the world anyway.

750
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: By the early nineteen sixties, mk Ultra was officially seen

751
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: by Sydney Gottlieb as a failure. The program was gradually

752
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: wound down, and Gottlieb went out to spend the rest

753
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: of his career designing James Bond style assassination devices. He

754
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: tries to kill Fidel Castro so many times. He flies

755
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 1: to the Congo to try to poison Patrice la Mumba.

756
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,439
Speaker 1: It doesn't work out often for him. He's not and

757
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: usually because other things happen, they just never use the poison.

758
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: But he makes a lot of poisons. In nineteen sixty four,

759
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: the mk ULTRA program, which by that point is known

760
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 1: to be a failure, is renamed m K Search, which

761
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: again terrible cryptonym. But as far as we know, most

762
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: of the experiments were wound down after this point. However,

763
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: as this passage from Poisoner in chief makes clear, Gottlieb

764
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: remained actively pursuing mind control technology even after MK Ultra

765
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: proved a disappointment quote In their behavior laboratories, the psychiatrists

766
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: and psychologists continued experimenting. Once more. They had turned to

767
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 1: an earlier line of research, implanting electrodes in the brain.

768
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: An agency team flew to Psygon in July nineteen eight.

769
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: Among them were a neurosurgeon and a neurologist. In a

770
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 1: closed off compound at ben Hua Hospital, the agency team

771
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: set to work. Three Vietcong prisoners had been selected by

772
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: the local station. How or why they were chosen would

773
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: remain uncertain. In turn, each man was anesthetized, and after

774
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: he had hinged back a flap in their skulls, the

775
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: neurosurgeon implanted tiny electrodes in each brain. When the prisoners

776
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: regained consciousness, the behavior is set to work. The prisoners

777
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: were placed in a room and given nigh pressing the

778
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: control buttons on their handsets. The behaviorists tried to arouse

779
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: their subjects to violence. Nothing happened for a whole week.

780
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: The doctors tried to make them in attack each other.

781
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 1: Baffled with their lack of success, the team flew back

782
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: to Washington, as previously arranged in case of failure. While

783
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 1: the physicians were still in the air, that prisoners were

784
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: shot by Green Beret troopers and their bodies burned. And

785
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: this is all stuff that happened before got we went

786
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 1: went to prison like I'm sure the listeners are waiting

787
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: from the point right right before. And don't worry is

788
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: it is put on trial for all of this. It's

789
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: it's coming up right now, Jason. So in nineteen seventy two,

790
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 1: it becomes obvious that Congress was going to look into

791
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 1: MK Ultra. CIA director Richard Helms ordered Gottlieb to destroy

792
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: all records of the programs. Everything we know now came

793
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: from caches of papers that were missed and odd bits

794
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: of correspondence from MK Ultra partners like Dr West. No

795
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: full investigation into the program will ever be possible because

796
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: again all of the records are destroyed. They miss like

797
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: eight thousand pages. A bunch of these doctors they used

798
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: as contractors, have stuff that gets found by by journalists

799
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: and stuff later. But we do not know everything that

800
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: was done under this program, and we have no accounting

801
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: of how many people were hurt. Um, none of that

802
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Gottlie burns it all and then a

803
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: year or so later he retires from the CIA. So

804
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. Um. And yeah. In nineteen sixty seven,

805
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: President Lyndon Johnson looked out at the growing protest movement

806
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 1: against the Vietnam War and the occupation of several college

807
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: campuses by anti war radicals. He ordered CIA director Richard Helms,

808
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: who is the guy like right after Alan Dulas gets

809
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: shit canned? Um, Helms is, by the way, the guy

810
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: who later orders the MK Ultra records destroyed to launch

811
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: in a legal domestic surveillance program code named Chaos. And

812
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote now from Tomo. Yeah, yeah, right, like

813
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: they're they're just they keep getting worse at the kryptonyms. Um.

814
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna quote now from Tommonio's book Chaos, which

815
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: is a history of the Charles Manson murders, as a

816
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: spoiler for where we're headed here. That August, with the

817
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: president's approval, CIA director Richard Helms authorized in a legal

818
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: domestic surveillance program code named Chaos. Meanwhile, j Edger Hoover

819
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: revived the FBI's dormant counterinsurgency program co Intel pro. Both

820
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: agencies opened the first offices of their respective operations in

821
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: San Francisco, still considered ground zero for the revolution, especially

822
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: since the founding of the Black Panther Party in nearby

823
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: Oakland the previous summer. Thanks to these two secret programs

824
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: and their network of well placed informants, there was an

825
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: all out war raging in California. By the summer of

826
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: sixty nine. The FBI and the CIA had induced the

827
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: Left to feed on itself among competing factions. What had

828
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: been sectarian strife devolved into outright violence. Now there is

829
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,720
Speaker 1: credible evidence to suggest that Charles Manson was for whatever reason,

830
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: of interest to the CIA. UM. This is timbo O'Neill's book, Chaos,

831
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: deals with this in a lot of detail. It's all

832
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: very messy. There's nothing perfectly clear. There's two different guys

833
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: who were close to him, who had ties to the agency.

834
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: One guy who was probably a c I a contractor,

835
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: like an actual like doing ship on the ground man

836
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: who was tied into Manson, who was there after the

837
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: murders probably but before the murders got reported to the

838
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: l A p. D Um who was very likely tied

839
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 1: to the agency. We don't know what he was doing.

840
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: He claimed that like he was because he talked a

841
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: few times to people and even helped write a book

842
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: with a former FBI agent and made the repeated claim

843
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: that like something had this wasn't supposed to happen, and

844
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: like something had gone wrong. I'm gonna tell you right now,

845
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: because all this is very messy. The most likely reason

846
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: why the murders are committed is essentially a series of

847
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: drug deals and relationships gone bad, and everything kind of escalates,

848
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 1: and you have these these people who are not particularly

849
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: tied in mentally, um, taking a lot of drugs and

850
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 1: like getting scared about, like Manson at one point shoots

851
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: a guy that he thinks as a black panther so

852
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 1: he's convinced the panthers are coming after him. This is

853
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: all really fucking messy. Um. But there are one of

854
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: the reasons why there's a lot of conspiracy theories that

855
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 1: like the Cia programmed Manson is two fold. Number One,

856
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: Manson is giving these these young mostly women, but there's

857
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: some of them are men who he has do the

858
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: actual murders. He's giving them a shipload of acid and

859
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: using that to kind of reprogram them. Right. That's a thing,

860
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 1: especially in the book Helter Skelter, that gets brought up

861
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: a bunch. There's debate as to the extent to which

862
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: he was actually trying to program them and the extent

863
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: to which they were all just taking acid. But they

864
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: were taking a lot of acid, which probably had its

865
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 1: because of where the acid was coming from. There's a

866
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: good chance a lot of the acid they did came

867
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 1: out of mk Ultra one way or the other. Um.

868
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: That's one reason people get conspiratorial. And then there's a

869
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: couple of guy is one of whom is for a

870
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: while Manson's uh, what parole officer? Um? Who like he

871
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: keeps getting off for stuff he shouldn't get off for. Um,

872
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: he gets like arrested while he's on patrol with guns

873
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: and drugs and with stolen cars. He keeps getting At

874
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: one point after the murders, when people are talking that

875
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 1: Manson and his family may have been the people who

876
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: did it. The l a p D carries out the

877
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: largest rate in their history at his compound and arrests

878
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: he and his cult members for like stealing cars, and

879
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,320
Speaker 1: then they all get released, even though he's a paroled

880
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: convict and shouldn't have been near any of this stuff.

881
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: So there's all this like we don't really know what's

882
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: going on, and it may not even be that it was.

883
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: It's possible he was like an FBI informant, and so

884
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:47,879
Speaker 1: that's why he kept until they realized he was tied

885
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: to the murders, kept getting out. Um, it's just all

886
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 1: like again you see why where all of these fucking

887
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories can come from. Right, there's all of this.

888
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 1: There's all of this like territory in which you can

889
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: kind of maneuver to set up a story about what

890
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 1: had happened. And again, it doesn't require there actually being anything,

891
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 1: because Charles Manson was a messed up and abusive dude. Um,

892
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: And like, it's not like cult leaders convince people to

893
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: kill people all of the time without the CIA being involved.

894
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: The CIA was involved to some extent. We just don't

895
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: know the precise reasons why. Right. See, here's the thing.

896
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 1: If your imagination goes off in a direction of well,

897
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: maybe this was the ultimate experiment to see if they

898
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: could create a perfect assassin. That a look if somehow,

899
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 1: through happenstance, the CIA and the people involved in in

900
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: k Ultra came across Charles Manson and tried to get

901
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: him to do one thing or another. If you knew

902
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: the full story, every detail of if someone wrote the

903
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: book of exactly what happened, I can promise you that

904
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: what occurred was dumb as hell. Yep, Like the killings

905
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 1: were an accident. He didn't do what they asked. It

906
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: was a clumsy, stupid just whole just a carnival of nonsense.

907
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: I I'm saying that, based on every single other thing

908
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: we know about him k Ultra, that if there was involvement,

909
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: it was not successful. It was it was a very

910
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,720
Speaker 1: dumb person who had I mean, Charles Manson's background was horrible.

911
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: He was abused as a child, He was a weirdo.

912
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: The people he surrounded himself with, like Tex Watson, were

913
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 1: for the most part very stupid um and the whole

914
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:35,240
Speaker 1: thing with the killings may have been largely a misunderstanding

915
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: or a spur of the moment thing or whatever, because

916
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: I think, based on what I know of the Manson murders,

917
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: his whole like what he told these people around him

918
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: that they basically formed the cult, where he told them

919
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: that there was a race war coming and they needed

920
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 1: to go out into a compound and on and on.

921
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,240
Speaker 1: I believe he made up all that stuff because those people,

922
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: those people hung around him because he was about to

923
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: be a successful musician and get a record deal and

924
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,479
Speaker 1: he's really tied in with the fucking the Beach Boys. Yeah,

925
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: and when the record deal fell through, he just didn't

926
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: want his groupies to go away, so he made up

927
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: this lie so they would stick around because he didn't

928
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 1: want to be lonely. Like I fully believe that whole

929
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,720
Speaker 1: thing they began and ended with Charles Manson not wanting

930
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: these hot girls who hung around him all the time

931
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: to leave. So he's like the world's about to end

932
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 1: because it's gonna be reest war. And I can sort

933
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: of do a Manson voice, Not really, there's I mean,

934
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 1: because there's also and again O'Neill's book goes into it.

935
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 1: There's like a Hollywood kind of drug dealing thing here too.

936
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 1: A lot of it may have involved like money and

937
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 1: just kind of but but that's that's outside of the

938
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: scope of these episodes. Um. When it comes to the

939
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 1: CIA's involvement, it's there's there's a lot of ugly connections,

940
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: including the fact our friend Dr Jolly and West is

941
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: during the period that Manson is in hate Ashbury in

942
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 1: San Francisco, West is there too, running a free clinic

943
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: with a guy named David Smith. Um and West is.

944
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 1: One of the things he's doing is he's operating he's

945
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,479
Speaker 1: renting out a house on Frederick Street which he's turned

946
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: into a laboratory designed as a hippie crash pad, and

947
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: he is once again using CIA resources giving a shipload

948
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: of drugs to people. Um, while he has now in

949
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: this case, he actually has grad students observing the hippies

950
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: and like taking notes, and most of those grad students

951
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: they people to talk to them. You can talk to

952
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 1: these people, like results were published. The grad students are like,

953
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: this is a shitty study. I don't understand what he's

954
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: trying to do. Like we're not really getting anything. But

955
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,760
Speaker 1: Manson is kind of around at the time. Um, there's

956
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: there's some connections there and kind of the thing that

957
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 1: O'Neill brings up that I think is actually plausible in

958
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 1: terms of there being a degree of CIA involvement here,

959
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 1: is that we do know multiple police officers who had

960
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: interactions with Manson and like arrested him, and we're looking

961
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,720
Speaker 1: into him at this period before and after the murders,

962
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: say that it was well known in the Los Angeles

963
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: Police Department that like, Charles Manson had some FEDS who

964
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: had his back and that you were not supposed to

965
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: like mess with him. Um, you're not supposed to like

966
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: keep him in. And so when he would get arrested,

967
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 1: he would get let out because somebody was like and

968
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 1: there's a number of reasons for this. It could have

969
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: been he was informing for the FBI. Um, But one

970
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 1: possibility is that either the FBI or the CIA, not

971
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: that they were like trying turning Charles Manson and his

972
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: followers into assassins, but that they were like, well, this

973
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: is dangerous. This guy is dangerous. What he's doing with

974
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 1: these people are dangerous. Eventually, something terrible is going to happen,

975
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: and are are The order that we have from our

976
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 1: boss is to funk with the hippies, right, is to

977
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: like do some damage to this kind of flower power movement.

978
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,400
Speaker 1: So if we let this guy who was like the

979
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: poster child for the worst things that can happen to

980
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: like when you turn tune in, turn on and drop out,

981
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,240
Speaker 1: if we just let him do stuff for a while,

982
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: eventually he'll do something horrible and then it'll do damage

983
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 1: to these this movement. That's you know, we've been We've

984
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: been brought in as part of Operation Chaos to hurt um.

985
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: And it was kind of the end of the hippie

986
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 1: It absolutely was. And I'm gonna I'm gonna read a

987
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 1: quote from Tip O'Neill one more or Tom O'Neill one

988
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 1: more time, she's tip O'Neil. It struck me that the

989
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: Tate la Bianca murders had been so often invoked as

990
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: the death knell of the sixties. Arguably they did more

991
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:26,320
Speaker 1: than any other event to turn the public opinion against

992
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: the hippies. Recasting the peace and love flower power ethos

993
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: is a thing of latent, drug addled criminality. As the

994
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 1: writer Tom Getland noted for the mass media, the acid

995
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: head Charles Manson was ready made as the monster looking

996
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:42,800
Speaker 1: in the heart of every long hair. So yeah, um,

997
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: who knows what went on there? Uh, something we just

998
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: will never quite know what. In nineteen seventy four, the

999
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,959
Speaker 1: details of the of mk Ultra finally broke out into

1000
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 1: public knowledge after a report from Seymour Hirsch for The

1001
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: New York Times. This reporting helped spawn the Church Committee

1002
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 1: and the Rockefeller Commission. The Church Committee's final report, they

1003
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 1: quoted from a nineteen fifty seven internal evaluation by the

1004
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 1: c I A precautions must be taken. The document warrant

1005
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: to conceal these activities from the American public in general.

1006
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 1: The knowledge that the agency is engaging in unethical and

1007
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 1: illicit activities would have serious repercussions. Don't let him know

1008
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: about this, Like one the first time someone from the

1009
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 1: agency has not got Lieber Dulls actually looks at what

1010
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: they're doing. They're like, oh my god, don't let anyone

1011
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 1: know what we're doing. We have to hide this ship

1012
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: at all costs. Um and they do. A more haunting

1013
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 1: reveal is that in nineteen sixty three, a review by

1014
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: the Inspector General of the CIA included this line. A

1015
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 1: final phase of the testing of mk Ultra products places

1016
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: the rights and interests of US citizens in jeopardy. I

1017
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 1: don't know precisely what that means because we don't know

1018
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,360
Speaker 1: what all of the products were, but kind of a

1019
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: sketchy little line there. Um, Sydney gott Lieb burns all

1020
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 1: of his records. This comes out in the congressional investigation.

1021
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 1: He is recalled to Washington, so he when he retires,

1022
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 1: he and his wife travel to run a clinic for

1023
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:13,240
Speaker 1: lepers and like India, like they're like traveling around the world,

1024
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: just like trying to do good. Um. I don't know

1025
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 1: what's going on in this man's head, but yeah, he

1026
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: goes back to d C. He claims that he's in

1027
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: bad health and so he can't address the entire synate chamber,

1028
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 1: and so in a private room he's questioned and the

1029
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 1: American people can hear on a loud speaker as he

1030
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: tells everyone that he's destroyed the MK Ultra files. Now,

1031
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 1: he says this was not to cover up a legal activity,

1032
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: but quote because this material was sensitive and capable of

1033
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: being misunderstood. I don't know what what's more misunderstood, Like,

1034
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 1: if you're trying to not let people conspiracy about this

1035
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 1: Sydney burning at all, probably isn't the right thing to do.

1036
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: It could be taken the wrong way. Wow, the fact

1037
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 1: that we were doing all this could really be taken

1038
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 1: the wrong way. I better let all this on fire

1039
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 1: so nobody thinks we're bad guys. That way, they can

1040
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 1: just fill in the void with their imaginations. Yeah, exactly

1041
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: that way, and then there won't be any conspiracy theories. Um.

1042
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 1: Gottlieb says under congressional like testimony that he cannot provide

1043
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: specific information on any mkal trick experiments because he's never

1044
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: witnessed any himself. He was investigated for federal crimes due

1045
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 1: to his destruction of government files, which is absolutely illegal,

1046
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 1: but the case was quietly dropped by the Justice Department.

1047
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: Gottlieb was never prosecuted, and the Senate gave him total

1048
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 1: criminal immunity in exchange for testifying against who so other

1049
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: people did go to prison because that's why. That's why

1050
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 1: they gave him immunity, so they can nail all those

1051
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: other people. Nope, we're done. All's well. Sydney Gottlieb spends

1052
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: the rest of his life with his wife on their

1053
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: eco friendly goat farm in rural Virginia, Virginia. He dies

1054
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: in and for the rest of his life. Friends of

1055
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 1: the family of his children would recall a kindly, intelligent,

1056
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 1: open minded man with a strong spiritual and mystical interest.

1057
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: Sydney meditated regularly, he read constantly. He was, in his

1058
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: private life the absolute epitome of an aging hippie. The

1059
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 1: people who loved him and spent time close to him

1060
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 1: only got occasional glimpses of something darker. Stephen Kinser at

1061
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: one point quotes from a young woman named Elizabeth, who

1062
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 1: wound up dating one of Sydney's sons. So she spends

1063
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 1: this summer around the family compound, and she recalled this

1064
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 1: as a generally positive experience. But there's one peculiar moment

1065
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: that she related later to an interviewer. One day that summer,

1066
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 1: we were out at the house swimming. The parents had

1067
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 1: gone to the store to buy food for dinner, and

1068
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: Peter goes, kind of conspiratorially, come here, I want to

1069
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: show you something. He takes me into his father's din,

1070
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 1: his library, and says, turn around. He did something. He

1071
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 1: didn't want me to see. What he did, and the

1072
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 1: wall of books opened up behind it was all this

1073
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: stuff weapons. I couldn't tell which kind, but guns, there

1074
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: was other stuff back there. It was like a secret compartment.

1075
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 1: I asked him what is that for. He closed it

1076
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 1: back up quickly and said, you know, my father has

1077
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 1: a price on his head. I said, why is he

1078
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 1: a criminal? He said no, he works for the CIA.

1079
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 1: Then he said, you know, my dad has killed people.

1080
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: He made toothpaste to kill someone. Later on he told me,

1081
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:18,479
Speaker 1: don't tell anybody that you were in here, and don't

1082
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 1: ever tell anyone that you know my father kills people.

1083
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 1: And they pulled out a particular gun and he aimed

1084
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: it out the window and fired it at a tree.

1085
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:32,919
Speaker 1: He said, you come back in two days. That tree

1086
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 1: is gonna be fucked. She's gonna she's gonna be dead.

1087
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 1: My dad's killed trees. What all such? We just a

1088
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 1: just a I mean, that's true. That says to me

1089
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: that like he was kind of like he's kind of

1090
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 1: milking it, you know, like you tell like, hey, kids,

1091
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 1: you want to see like your dad's secret gun wall.

1092
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: I made toothpaste to kill somebody, um, which I don't

1093
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 1: believe never killed anybody. It was none of another one

1094
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: of the things that nothing happened with. But like I

1095
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 1: don't know, I guess that's not weird that like a

1096
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 1: guy like that would want people, would like want people

1097
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 1: who was close to to know that he was this

1098
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 1: he has this other secret life as a badass spy. Um,

1099
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 1: he's probably not telling him about all the prostitutes, about

1100
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: his friend with the portable toilet or any of that

1101
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: would be my guess. But yeah, I mean I don't

1102
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: doubt that if if, if he told the story, I

1103
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 1: would love to know how he told the story, if

1104
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 1: he made it seem more dark and mysterious than it was,

1105
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 1: if you tried to cover up the fact that it

1106
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 1: was such a clumsy mess and irresponsible, Like the people

1107
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 1: who died weren't because of his gadgets. It was through negligence.

1108
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 1: It was through killing test subjects because there was nothing

1109
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 1: else else to do with them, Like I don't know, I,

1110
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: I you you. And that's obviously what makes him such

1111
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: fascinating character, because you'll never know what he thought of himself,

1112
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 1: or what he thought of what he did, or if

1113
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 1: he spend his time abroad trying to make up for it,

1114
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: trying to save his own soul. Yeah, did he feel

1115
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 1: did he realize this was all a terrible mistake and

1116
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, dedicate the rest of his life to

1117
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 1: helping lepers or something. Um, yep, who knows. I mean

1118
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 1: I like the eco friendly goat farm part, but I

1119
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 1: wish he had just raised goats. I think they can

1120
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 1: all agree that. Yeah, Um, Jason, it's well, now, hold on,

1121
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:43,000
Speaker 1: I thought that the UNI bomber was also part of Ultra?

1122
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: Did we leave Are we leaving that out? Or is

1123
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: that not true? Is that he's he's involved in some

1124
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 1: experiments that are that are like part of this, like

1125
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 1: the whole thing, because remember it's like a pretty broad

1126
01:02:55,560 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: variety of things and his are like, um, it's not

1127
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: entirely the same. Um, It's like he's involved in a

1128
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:11,520
Speaker 1: voluntary psychological study that's like pretty abusive and that probably

1129
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 1: does some damage to him. That it wasn't funded by

1130
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 1: m KAY Ultra. Well it might have been, because I remember,

1131
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:19,720
Speaker 1: we don't know exactly what was an m KAY Ultra

1132
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: because Sydney destroyed. But it's the kind of thing they

1133
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 1: would have done, right. It sounds a lot of what

1134
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: Kazinski goes through sounds like aspects of the dip patterning

1135
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 1: kind of stuff that is being researched, Like, um, that's

1136
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 1: being done up at McGill University. So I think it's

1137
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 1: pretty likely that he was in an experiment that was

1138
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 1: part of m KAY Ultra. I don't think you're gonna

1139
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 1: get exact confirmation. Kazinski was always pretty adamant that like

1140
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: that had nothing to do with what he did. Um. Well,

1141
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 1: that's why I wanted to bring him up, not not

1142
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 1: to suggest that he was a product of it, but

1143
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 1: to suggest that if he if he was, it wasn't

1144
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 1: because they again, they created the perfect assassin and he

1145
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 1: carried out a series of ineffective bombings the rather than yeah,

1146
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 1: it took someone who was already disturbed and made him

1147
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 1: much much worse than they just turned him out into

1148
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 1: the world, Like like that's the thing that they were

1149
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 1: good at, was Yeah, it was really hurting people were

1150
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 1: didn't Yeah, who were already having some problems, and like, yeah,

1151
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 1: I think that's probably the best way to look at

1152
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: what you've got with um. UM with Kazinski is like

1153
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: I don't want to we'll we'll talk about Papa Ted

1154
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 1: one of these days, but he's Whatever you want to

1155
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 1: say about the likely impact MK Ultra has on Ted Kazinski,

1156
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't no way it helped right, like, there's certainly

1157
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 1: no way and made him made him a less likely

1158
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 1: to blow things up. Right, And if his whole issue

1159
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 1: was that he did not have faith in the system

1160
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 1: and wanted to bring it down, like this probably did

1161
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 1: not yes help his faith in the system. Yeah, it does.

1162
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 1: If you really start reading a lot of mk ultra stuff,

1163
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 1: you do find yourself thinking about bringing down the system. Um,

1164
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 1: it's a natural reaction to reading a lot of stories

1165
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 1: of the CIA torturing people. Um. But that's but we've

1166
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 1: reached end of it, ultimately had a happy ending. Justice prevailed.

1167
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: The guy at the top of it died in peacefully

1168
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 1: at age ninety or whatever, living living a long and

1169
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:15,560
Speaker 1: peaceful retirement on his goat farm, exactly what he deserved.

1170
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 1: It is done. Yeah, I learned. It taught the lesson

1171
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: that actually, by destroying evidence, you can totally get off

1172
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 1: on a crime because they need evidence to convict you,

1173
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 1: Like they can charge you for destroying the evidence as

1174
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 1: a separate crime. But yeah, you'll get off from the

1175
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 1: original the original thing you did if you do successfully

1176
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 1: destroy all of the records of you doing it. They

1177
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 1: can really they're helpless and uh yeah, that's um. Once again,

1178
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 1: their attempt to to cancel this poor man didn't work. Yeah,

1179
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 1: thank god do it? Just like uh David Chappelle uncancellable

1180
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 1: and and like Dave Chappelle regularly shows up at concerts

1181
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: to to sing surprise versus when I forget what band

1182
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: that was that had just happened with Radio ahead, Yeah,

1183
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:13,760
Speaker 1: probably Radio. We're we're on this. We're referencing things that

1184
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 1: happened on Twitter hours ago when this this episode will

1185
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: come out weeks later. But that's what the audience loves. Jason, Well,

1186
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 1: thank you for having me on so that I could

1187
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 1: I could go on this very dark journey with you.

1188
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:31,000
Speaker 1: I I hope that it has Uh what what have

1189
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 1: we learned? What have we learned from this? I guess? Well,

1190
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 1: if if you're worried that LSD is a mind control agent,

1191
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 1: don't worry. The CIA tested that hypothesis. Um. I guess

1192
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 1: if you've ever thought I would like to sit on

1193
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 1: a portable toilet and watch strangers have sex, Um, you

1194
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: might want to look for a job in the Central

1195
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 1: Intelligence Agency apparently, And if you're if you if you're

1196
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 1: worried about the techniques for affecting someone's brain. One the

1197
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 1: knowledge of how to totally destroy someone's brain. We do

1198
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: have that technology, but but we've actually had it since

1199
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 1: the Stone Age. It's just called hitting someone in the

1200
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 1: head with a rock. Like it doesn't require subjecting them

1201
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:23,440
Speaker 1: two months of techniques and repeating things in a in

1202
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 1: a sound helmet, and while under the influence of various drugs.

1203
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 1: You can just hit them with a rock. That in

1204
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: terms of you know, actually mind controlling somebody, the old

1205
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 1: methods are best. Just good old fashioned lies and bribes

1206
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:40,520
Speaker 1: and threats. Uh. They all work very well. We do

1207
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: not need new techniques. They work great. Advertisers have have

1208
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:47,320
Speaker 1: mastered all sorts of ways to put on your insecurities

1209
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 1: and make you spend money that you don't have. Uh.

1210
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:53,360
Speaker 1: They did not need some amazing new technology to do it.

1211
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 1: It's actually super easy to manipulate people into doing things.

1212
01:07:56,840 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 1: It's not not hard at all. Speaking of which, if

1213
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:03,520
Speaker 1: you're looking to mind control me, Um, the thing I'm

1214
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 1: most vulnerable too is in fact suitcase is full of money.

1215
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 1: So you know, we're always the case of money. We

1216
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 1: are available. We will betray anyone as anyone with for

1217
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 1: a big enough suitcase, not a little suitcase. You know. Anyway,

1218
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 1: my the book that I've been promoting the beginning of

1219
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 1: these each of these episodes one final time. The title

1220
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:28,759
Speaker 1: is if this book exists, You're in the wrong universe

1221
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 1: has a lime green cover. If you buy books based

1222
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: purely on the color of the color of the cover,

1223
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 1: this one is neon lime green. You can't miss it

1224
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,479
Speaker 1: at your bookstore. You know. I did work at a

1225
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 1: bookstore for a while as a younger man, and people

1226
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,360
Speaker 1: did come in occasionally asking for books by color. I

1227
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 1: don't remember the title of the author, but it was blue. Um.

1228
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:51,600
Speaker 1: That is a thing I have been asked working in

1229
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 1: a bookstore. So go into your local bookstore and demand

1230
01:08:55,280 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 1: a green book. Um. And if they don't give you

1231
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:02,640
Speaker 1: Jason's book, then riot um. Otherwise, you can look me

1232
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 1: up on any of the social media platforms. My name

1233
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 1: is Jason Park and p A R G. I n

1234
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:10,679
Speaker 1: um on TikTok, I'm on Twitter, I'm on all of them.

1235
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 1: Just just searched the box for my name and you'll

1236
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 1: find either my account or some bot pretending to be

1237
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:21,599
Speaker 1: me that will probably both be equally as good excellent. Well, Jason,

1238
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:24,680
Speaker 1: thanks for this five hour stretch of our lives that

1239
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:29,559
Speaker 1: we've spent learning about the CIA. Thanks for having me,

1240
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 1: I guess. Behind the Bastards is a production of cool

1241
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:37,679
Speaker 1: Zone Media.