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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to stuff.

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Speaker 1: One never told you a production of iHeartRadio, and today

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Speaker 1: we're talking about kind of a current ish. I guess

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Speaker 1: we're a little behind. Study that made a lot of

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Speaker 1: waves and it's involved around women in health. So see

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Speaker 1: our past episodes we've done around that. We've done several

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Speaker 1: things about women as patients as workers in the health industry,

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Speaker 1: so definitely go seek those out. But yes, you've probably heard. Recently,

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Speaker 1: a new study out of Harvard made a lot of

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Speaker 1: waves when it found that patients of all genders a

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Speaker 1: better health outcomes when treated by women doctors. These patients

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Speaker 1: were more likely to survive and less likely to be rehospitalized.

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Speaker 1: The study built on paths studies that found that women

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Speaker 1: doctors are more likely to invest and suggest in preventive

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Speaker 1: care and counseling, and more likely when it came to

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Speaker 1: uterus having patients to request for things like mammograms and

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Speaker 1: pap smears. There was a similar study in Canada that

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Speaker 1: was also pretty recent that produced similar results, so this

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Speaker 1: is not really a new thing to specify, though the

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Speaker 1: study was specifically focused on elderly hospitalized patients. From Medical

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Speaker 1: News today Sugawa, which is one of the head The

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Speaker 1: heads of the study and his colleagues examined data from

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Speaker 1: Medicare claims made between twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen. The

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Speaker 1: data included more than four hundred and fifty eight thousand,

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Speaker 1: one hundred female patients and more than three hundred and

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Speaker 1: eighteen thousand, eight hundred male patients. Roughly thirty one percent

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Speaker 1: of both the male and female patient groups were treated

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Speaker 1: by a female doctor. The researchers reported that the mortality

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Speaker 1: rate for the female patients when they were treated by

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Speaker 1: a female doctor was eight point one five percent compared

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Speaker 1: with eight point three eight percent when treated by a

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Speaker 1: male physician. The researchers regardless as clinically significant difference. Among males,

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Speaker 1: the mortality rate was ten point fifteen percent when treated

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Speaker 1: by females compared with ten point twenty three percent for males.

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Speaker 1: So the studies lead author has expressed he expects backlash

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Speaker 1: from this, but maintains that the methodology was analyzed multiple times,

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Speaker 1: and some have criticized the study in terms of the

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Speaker 1: fact that you're usually getting treated by a team when

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Speaker 1: you're in the hospital. However, most still admitted were failing

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Speaker 1: women and minority patients and there is something going on here.

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Speaker 1: And so I know we've talked about this, but Samantha

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Speaker 1: and I have had some recent experiences in our family

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Speaker 1: and our group around health scares. And I will say

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Speaker 1: my mom she ou she was hospitalized recently, and when

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Speaker 1: she told me the story, it was like it was

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Speaker 1: so infuriating because it was like I was listening to

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Speaker 1: an example from this because she was like, nobody was

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Speaker 1: really listening to me. And then they put me somewhere

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Speaker 1: and didn't tell me anything, and nobody really knew why

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Speaker 1: I was there and they couldn't tell me why, and

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Speaker 1: they were mostly men that were just like, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing here? And She's like, great question, I would

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Speaker 1: love to know that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know what I will say for

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Speaker 2: the newer stuff I found fascinating, and I don't know

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Speaker 2: what this is going to do and how things are

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Speaker 2: going to switch up. I think it's going to be

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Speaker 2: a key in like your nurses, because a chunk, I

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Speaker 2: don't think. Except for my brother who was admitted to

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Speaker 2: a hospital that was specialized in heart failure and surgeries

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Speaker 2: and such as that, my mom and my dad who

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Speaker 2: were both hospitalized for an incident. It's been a while,

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Speaker 2: never really saw a doctor. The doctors were all teledoctors,

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Speaker 2: and it was all the nurse who had to relay

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Speaker 2: what was going on and do everything. Everything was literally

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Speaker 2: they brought in a monitor to do like a zoom

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Speaker 2: call essentially of course like everything's fine. But I found

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Speaker 2: that fascinating. And each one of them, except for I

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Speaker 2: will say, okay, there was one doctor that I did

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Speaker 2: not see, who apparently was a woman that was caring

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Speaker 2: for my dad. And the way she responded was so quick,

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Speaker 2: like she actually set up things as where my mom

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Speaker 2: was kind of who was only seen by men, was

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Speaker 2: kind of like, eh, we'll try some things. It was

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Speaker 2: kind of that kind of conversation, which I'm glad they tested.

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Speaker 2: They kept her a little longer than my father because

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Speaker 2: of the types of tests. They actually had similar incidents

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Speaker 2: of why they went into the hospital. It was pretty

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Speaker 2: interesting in that result, but I was because it was

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Speaker 2: at the same hospital, so they went to the same hospital.

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Speaker 2: They had two different interactions with many a doctors and

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Speaker 2: again this is also a small town, so they have

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Speaker 2: to be like driven further away. And then the colocal

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Speaker 2: hospital is still like small in comparison to like, if

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Speaker 2: there was actually something big, they would have been if

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Speaker 2: you're either driven to or like flown to a metro

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Speaker 2: area to get to that, because it was that type

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Speaker 2: of hospital. So my experiences I think are a little

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Speaker 2: different anyway. But I did note that when I was

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Speaker 2: talking to my parents about their experiences when it came

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Speaker 2: to the woman doctor, she they genuinely trusted everything she said.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what made the difference as where they

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Speaker 2: felt like when the other doctor came in, everything was

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Speaker 2: like a hit and miss type of thing, like throw

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Speaker 2: against the wall and see what happens. So again, though

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Speaker 2: it wasn't exactly the same, but there was similar scenarios,

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Speaker 2: So I thought I did find that interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are a couple of reasons that the

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Speaker 1: study kind of posits for why that why that might be.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I would say anecdotally to most of

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Speaker 1: my experience has been with male doctors, and it's not

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Speaker 1: that they were bad, but a lot of times I

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Speaker 1: was just uncomfortable because they have like trauma and like

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Speaker 1: if it requires you to, i don't know, take off

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Speaker 1: your clothes or something like, I just would have I

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Speaker 1: would feel very uncomfortable, and you know that again that's

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Speaker 1: a very specific case. But because we know that a

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Speaker 1: lot more women than men do experience things like that,

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Speaker 1: that I can see that being an issue as well.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, going back to the study, the studies findings

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Speaker 1: were pretty striking. It found that in the US quote

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Speaker 1: that approximately thirty two thousand fear patients would die if

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Speaker 1: male physicians could achieve the same outcomes as female physicians

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Speaker 1: every year. They concluded that they couldn't pinpoint the exact

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Speaker 1: reason for this, but there are a few theories, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I want to be clear these are theories,

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Speaker 1: but women in general being better at listeners, communicators, more

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Speaker 1: empathetic another's women doctors tend to spend more time with

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Speaker 1: their patients. A lot of women practicing are younger than

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Speaker 1: men practicing, and this is something we've talked about in

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Speaker 1: a previous episode, but burnout is a huge problem for

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Speaker 1: women in the medical industry, which is a part of

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Speaker 1: why women are typically younger. But it means that the

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Speaker 1: younger folks might be like more up to date on

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Speaker 1: recent guidelines. If we're talking about elderly patients, I do

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Speaker 1: wonder if there's something to do with the jobs men

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Speaker 1: typically pursue versus what women typically pursue. This is just

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Speaker 1: a thought of mine. I don't have anything to back

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Speaker 1: it up, but I did when I was reading it,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I wonder if you're specifically focusing on

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Speaker 1: elderly patients. I don't know. Another thing we've talked about,

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Speaker 1: like shifting to the patient's side, is this long history

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Speaker 1: of women's pain being ignored. There have been multiple studies

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Speaker 1: that have shown that that can lead to death are

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Speaker 1: just like way worse outcomes ten years trying to get

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Speaker 1: a diagnosis longer than that, like being in pain that

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Speaker 1: whole time. One of the quotes from the study was

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Speaker 1: there's limited training in women's health issues, and they also

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Speaker 1: pointed out that medical trials still focused on men. Still.

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Speaker 2: I find it interesting too when it comes to like

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Speaker 2: heart disease. It took so long for them to figure

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Speaker 2: out that women's symptoms were different from men and not

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Speaker 2: associating heart attacks with women in general. So the fact

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Speaker 2: that that heart attacks became one of the leading causes

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Speaker 2: of death for women and no one recognized that. Everybody

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, that's weird until like literally what eighties, nineties,

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Speaker 2: I don't think until nineties, and then in like nineties

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Speaker 2: two thousands they had to have a campaign because people

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Speaker 2: did not realize this or the doctors told them so little. Again,

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Speaker 2: when my mom when she was this was like fifteen

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Speaker 2: years ago, ten fifteen years ago, when she went in

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Speaker 2: for her major heart surgery, like she almost died. She

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Speaker 2: had had symptoms for a week that doctor's men were

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Speaker 2: telling her, eh, it could be stressed, and she was like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it's weird because it's on my chin

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Speaker 2: and my jaw and my like this jawline is really hurting.

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Speaker 2: I think my neck's really hearty. There's something weird. And

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Speaker 2: then finally someone would be like, oh my god, you're

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Speaker 2: about to have a heart attack. Oh my god, your

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Speaker 2: main artery is caloged ninety nine percent. You're about to die.

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Speaker 2: Like essentially, it took them that long when she went

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Speaker 2: to the doctor. I'm very proud of her because she

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Speaker 2: persisted like, no, this is not right, this is not right,

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Speaker 2: this is not normal, for at least three three doctor's appointments,

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Speaker 2: if not four, to finally be like, we need to

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Speaker 2: get you in surgery right now. You're gonna die.

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Speaker 1: And that unfortunately, so many people report that experience. Right,

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Speaker 1: my mom when her recent health issue, she was telling

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Speaker 1: me her your symptoms, and I was like, hey, just

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Speaker 1: how you know, for a long time the symptoms of

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Speaker 1: a heart attack have just been presented in this way,

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Speaker 1: which is how men see it, but women can have

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Speaker 1: different symptoms, and some of the things you're telling me

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Speaker 1: are those symptoms. So I just want you to know

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Speaker 1: that maybe you should bring that up. But so many

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Speaker 1: women have reported of kind of your being emotional, you

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Speaker 1: can't handle pain, or like.

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Speaker 2: Something that larious, because we know that's the opposite is true.

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Speaker 2: Like statistically, by all the points, women handle pain much

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Speaker 2: better than men.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I also think it's really interesting and we should

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Speaker 1: come back, and I we should come back and look

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Speaker 1: into this. But in my experience, the discussion around a

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Speaker 1: heart attack was it was because men ate more or

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Speaker 1: meat and they like ate like heavier things, and women

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Speaker 1: of course aren't eating their salads or what half you

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Speaker 1: in this very gender stereotype, so they aren't going to

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Speaker 1: have one. But it was almost like I remember when

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Speaker 1: my dad had heart troubles. It was the whole conversation

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Speaker 1: around it was, well, yeah, he's eating the steak.

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Speaker 2: And for getting genetics exists.

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Speaker 1: Right, but it did have that very like obviously men

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Speaker 1: are eating this this and women aren't sticking to the leaves,

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Speaker 1: thank goodness. Yeah, which is it messed up in many

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Speaker 1: many ways. I would like to come back and look

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Speaker 1: into that, because that's just what I remember from being

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Speaker 1: a kid. My dad had his heart problems, was it

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Speaker 1: just felt like, well, he heap steak like my mom.

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Speaker 1: Here's a quote from NBC News. The new research is

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Speaker 1: part of a growing field of study examining why women

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Speaker 1: and minorities tend to receive worse medical care than men

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Speaker 1: and white patients. For example, women and minority patients are

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Speaker 1: up to thirty percent more likely to be misdiagnosed than

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Speaker 1: white men. Our pain and our symptoms are often dismissed,

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Speaker 1: said doctor Meghan Ranny, dean of the Yale School of

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Speaker 1: Public Health. It may be that women physicians are more

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Speaker 1: aware of that and are more empathetic. And going back

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Speaker 1: to that heart attack thing we're just talking about, another

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Speaker 1: study found that women having heart attacks were more likely

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Speaker 1: to survive when being treated by a doctor who is

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Speaker 1: a woman. Women, as I was kind of mentioning earlier,

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Speaker 1: might feel more comfortable being open with another woman about

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Speaker 1: things like my cousin is a nurse and she used

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Speaker 1: to joke, like, we know half the stuff you're saying

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Speaker 1: is a lie when you come in when we ask you.

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Speaker 1: So I can see, I can see it being more

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Speaker 1: comfortable to be, you know, upfront about certain things with

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Speaker 1: a woman as a woman. The study did come out

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Speaker 1: with a few recommendations minimizing the gender pay gap and

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Speaker 1: disparities in the industry. Yep. In general, only a third

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Speaker 1: of practicing doctors are women, and the gap is worse,

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Speaker 1: far worse in certain specialties I believe in one of

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Speaker 1: them was like one percent women. Addressing gendered gaps in care,

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Speaker 1: both in practice and regarding patients gender, The study authors

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Speaker 1: do caution against switching doctors just based on racar gender

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Speaker 1: if you have one you're comfortable with. The study authors

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Speaker 1: were more interested in looking into why this difference exist

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Speaker 1: in the first place, because if regardless of gender, folks

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Speaker 1: are getting the same training, then the outcomes should be

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Speaker 1: close sared right, right. That was kind of their question,

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Speaker 1: like that something is not adding up here. But also

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Speaker 1: they pretty much ended with like men do better. They

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Speaker 1: kind of like maybe they were basically saying like, ask

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Speaker 1: yourself some questions right about why this might be and

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Speaker 1: maybe the answer is out of your control or I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but they were hey men, just maybe.

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Speaker 2: You know, maybe ask A big thing in this is

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Speaker 2: because internships happened clinical and practices, and that's why you

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Speaker 2: learn a lot of attitudes. Yeah that, And I say,

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Speaker 2: this is a person who went through it through a

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Speaker 2: whole practicum when I became a social worker and was

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Speaker 2: told don't do this, don't do this. They gave you,

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Speaker 2: they taught you biases. So if these biases exist, if

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Speaker 2: it started with men to begin with, then those men

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Speaker 2: are training other men and training other people and teaching

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Speaker 2: this that way that I think influences a lot. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's a bigger conversation, and like, okay, who

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Speaker 2: is speaking to whom? Who is mentoring whom? Because that's

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Speaker 2: a big part of their studies as well. Sure they

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Speaker 2: do all that, but essentially when you go in and

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Speaker 2: doing it hands on, it's a different take almost and

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Speaker 2: you are learning under someone else. And I feel like

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Speaker 2: that is probably where we're seeing the big, big differences

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Speaker 2: and who's doing saying what and taking what type of attitude.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think the teaching is a

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Speaker 1: huge part of it. Friend Marissa of the show is

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Speaker 1: a nurse and she does a lot of teaching and

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Speaker 1: I'll hear her talk about it, and she has great

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Speaker 1: students of all genders. She has bad students of all genders.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like, but because she's the teacher, she's

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Speaker 1: more aware of those right kind of things, just because

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Speaker 1: that's who she is and what she knows. So I

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Speaker 1: do think that's that's really important. And you know, we

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Speaker 1: all have biases we might not recognize, and I think

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Speaker 1: it is easier to be here's a guy that looks

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Speaker 1: like me, I'll mentor him, I'll take him on rye

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Speaker 1: or whatever. But yeah, maybe ask some questions about that.

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Speaker 2: HM.

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Speaker 1: Well, if anyone have any thoughts about this, or if

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Speaker 1: you're in the medical field or not, we have gotten

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Speaker 1: a lot of messages about people's struggles to be believed

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Speaker 1: when it comes to getting a diagnosis, so that is

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Speaker 1: a huge problem. If you have any thoughts about that

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Speaker 1: as well, please let us know. You can email U

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Speaker 1: at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You

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Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, or

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Speaker 1: on Instagram. And TikTok at stuff One Never Told You.

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Speaker 1: We're on YouTube, we have a te public store, and

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Speaker 1: we have a book you can get where you get

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Speaker 1: your books. Thanks as always too, our super producer Christina,

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Speaker 1: our executive producer My and your contributor Joey. Thank you

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Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You,

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Speaker 1: his production of iHeartRadio. For more podcast from My Heart Radio,

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Speaker 1: you can check out the heart Radio Apple podcast wherever

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Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.

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Speaker 2: A lovely move