Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to work in progress friends. Today we are joined
Speaker 1: by someone that I absolutely adore on screen and adore
Speaker 1: even more off, a frequent guest at parties at my house,
Speaker 1: and someone that I love to lean on for laughter
Speaker 1: and also for spitballing how to make it through this
Speaker 1: crazy world. Today's guest is none other than Kevin McHale.
Speaker 1: You likely know Kevin from his incredible role as Artie
Speaker 1: Abrams on the Fox TV series Glee. He was nominated
Speaker 1: for a Grammy Award, three Screen Actors Guild Awards for
Speaker 1: Outstanding Performance by an Ensemble in a Comedy Series, and
Speaker 1: two Teen Choice Awards for his role as Arty on Glee.
Speaker 1: He has hosted comedy Panels, podcasts, Been on the Office,
Speaker 1: and American Horror Story. As a singer, Kevin released his
Speaker 1: debut EP in twenty nineteen, and in addition to performing,
Speaker 1: he directs music videos for other incredible artists. Growing up
Speaker 1: in Texas's Tornado Alley, Kevin has a whole lot to
Speaker 1: say about the Weather Service, how he grew up wanting
Speaker 1: to be a weatherman, and why that curiosity mixed with
Speaker 1: the wild circus of our day jobs led him into
Speaker 1: really really incredible political activism for equity. I am so
Speaker 1: excited to have a conversation that really covers all of
Speaker 1: this and more with my dear friend Kevin Enjoy.
Speaker 2: Hi, this feels really sad, it feels very fun.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm very excited that you're here.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: One of the things I actually really like to do
Speaker 1: with people when they come on the show and they're
Speaker 1: not like one of my friends, so I just want
Speaker 1: to shoot the show with I actually like people to
Speaker 1: take me all the way back because in this world
Speaker 1: of having these crazy jobs we have, people often meet
Speaker 1: you on a show, they meet you as an adult.
Speaker 1: They get to know you when you've had some modicum
Speaker 1: of success, right, And I'm always really curious if from
Speaker 1: you know, inside of yourself today, like Kevin artist, performer
Speaker 1: host multi hyphenet, if you look back at your little
Speaker 1: boy self at like eight or nine years old, do
Speaker 1: you see the through line of how you wound up
Speaker 1: here or was this completely crazy, unexpected and your eight
Speaker 1: year old self would never believe what you do for
Speaker 1: a living.
Speaker 2: Fully both yes, Because of my interests from when I
Speaker 2: came out of the womb. It makes sense, okay, but
Speaker 2: you know how it is of the fact that anybody
Speaker 2: can find success and what they love to do, yeah,
Speaker 2: is mind boggling. Like the amount of like you can
Speaker 2: be prepared, you can have done all the things you
Speaker 2: needed to do to put yourself in the right position,
Speaker 2: but it still takes a little sprinkling of magical timing
Speaker 2: and luck. And the fact that that has happened to
Speaker 2: me a couple of times is mind boggling. My parents
Speaker 2: have been visiting the past week, so there's been a
Speaker 2: lot of that, like nostalgia looking back. You know, we
Speaker 2: used to come out here for acting in la for
Speaker 2: acting things, and so there's been a lot of intro
Speaker 2: you know, introspective reflection, okay, this past week. So it's
Speaker 2: an apropos question.
Speaker 1: Okay, So so pay a little bit of a picture
Speaker 1: for me, you know, little little boy version of you.
Speaker 1: Where's he growing up? What's he intwo? What's what's the
Speaker 1: vibe in the house.
Speaker 2: The quickest picture to paint is I was but nine
Speaker 2: years old when Titanic came out, belting out my heart
Speaker 2: will go on. Oh, and just like I had to,
Speaker 2: you know, like I just had to do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, there was no way you were going
Speaker 1: to survive if you didn't.
Speaker 2: No, or I would be in front of the TV
Speaker 2: learning the dancer teenes to and sync and like Britney
Speaker 2: spears Michael Jackson, wow, or I would I don't know
Speaker 2: if you remember. There was this like cheap video camera,
Speaker 2: like home video camera that because like the real ones
Speaker 2: were expensive and we didn't have it like that, but
Speaker 2: there were like one Christmas, some like toy video camera
Speaker 2: came out and I got it, and I used to
Speaker 2: film myself doing playing Good Morning America. And so I
Speaker 2: would be a news anchor and I would film myself
Speaker 2: doing the weather, which is really what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1: You wanted to be the weather man?
Speaker 2: Oh desperately, yes.
Speaker 1: Wait, why tell me everything.
Speaker 2: I grew up in Tornado Alley, and I was deathly
Speaker 2: afraid of tornadoes, and so I would sit in front
Speaker 2: of the weather channel every day all day, and so
Speaker 2: I learned everything about the weather. I would read books
Speaker 2: on the weather because I was so scared that I
Speaker 2: don't know how that maybe I felt if I knew
Speaker 2: about it, I could see the signs that a tornado
Speaker 2: was forming or something. And then get everybody into a
Speaker 2: safe room or something.
Speaker 1: So like if you became an expert at the thing
Speaker 1: you were afraid of, maybe you'd see it coming before
Speaker 1: everyone else.
Speaker 2: Yes, which did happen? Like we would go to Florida
Speaker 2: for vacation the summers and Tampa where we would lose,
Speaker 2: like the lightning capital of the world. So I would
Speaker 2: see the storms coming in, but we all have to
Speaker 2: get inside now. Just real fun. I was a really
Speaker 2: fun kid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, uplifting, Yeah, just.
Speaker 2: Paranoid all the time. But yeah, so I used to
Speaker 2: film myself. I would make maps of the United States.
Speaker 2: I would make the cold front things and the oh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wait have you seen the weatherman? And now of
Speaker 1: course that I want to tell you this on a
Speaker 1: show with all of these listeners. I can't think of
Speaker 1: his name. I DM his videos to people all the time.
Speaker 1: He he'll take a poll and ask people on Instagram
Speaker 1: what song he should work the lyrics into in his
Speaker 1: next weather report. Yes, and he does everything from like
Speaker 1: the Yin Yang Twins.
Speaker 2: He is so funny, it's brilliant. Like that's who I
Speaker 2: would want to be if I if I was a weatherman,
Speaker 2: That's who I'd want to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, it's not too late. No, maybe I'll be
Speaker 1: a mayor and maybe you'll be a weatherman.
Speaker 2: Great, can I be like secretary of weather? Yes, could
Speaker 2: be in the cabinet.
Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing. If Project twenty twenty five goes through,
Speaker 1: there won't be a national weather service anymore, which feels insane,
Speaker 1: given that we do live in a country with a
Speaker 1: tornado alley and you know, coasts that get pounded by hurricanes.
Speaker 1: But should we beat rising fascism and actually preserve American democracy,
Speaker 1: then the agencies that you know, do the weather report
Speaker 1: will continue to exist, and then I absolutely think you
Speaker 1: should be in charge of one of them.
Speaker 2: What a crazy, crazy thing that's happening. Like it's like.
Speaker 1: It's almost like somewhere there was a rip in the
Speaker 1: matrix and the writers of Parks and Rick got made
Speaker 1: in charge of writing scandal, well or more than West
Speaker 1: Wing perhaps, and everything is it's hard to be it's
Speaker 1: hard to believe that these things are to be believed,
Speaker 1: and yet it's happening. And not only is it happening,
Speaker 1: they've published the nine hundred page fascist manifesto for us
Speaker 1: to read. And then they say no, no, that's not
Speaker 1: real and you're like, no, but you published it. It's gaslighting.
Speaker 2: Oh but that's what they do. Well, yes, I mean
Speaker 2: they're very good at it, and that's why when you'd
Speaker 2: be like, well, no, Trump tanked the border build, but
Speaker 2: no he didn't gas lighting one to.
Speaker 1: One Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean they even made it so readily available online.
Speaker 2: There's tabs you can click on to like go to
Speaker 2: the thing, like it's great, like, oh, here's their horrific
Speaker 2: plan to ruin democracy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's the plan to undo democracy. Here's the plan
Speaker 1: to completely undo healthcare and medicaid. What's that senior citizens?
Speaker 1: They don't need anything? Let them die, Like that's literally
Speaker 1: what they're saying. And then they're they're telling us that
Speaker 1: we've mis heard or misread, and again I just keep thinking, no,
Speaker 1: this is on your your platform.
Speaker 2: All you have to do is copy and paste those
Speaker 2: sentences and spit them back to them and like no, like, no, no,
Speaker 2: I didn't do anything. I'm simply just showing you what
Speaker 2: you have published. I do feel like, I know we're
Speaker 2: getting off topic, but it feels like it's starting to
Speaker 2: land on deaf years a bit, and I'm very happy
Speaker 2: in a good way. I think a way in which
Speaker 2: we know this shtick, we're over it, and not just
Speaker 2: like the people who will always vote Democrat. I think
Speaker 2: there's a good portion in the middle there that is
Speaker 2: just like the same show.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's interesting. I was talking to my
Speaker 1: parents about this because I asked them a lot of
Speaker 1: questions about their generation. You know, they're in their seventies,
Speaker 1: and my dad is like, yeah, even my friends who
Speaker 1: I didn't agree with, who were right leaning forty years ago,
Speaker 1: are now like, Okay, we've lost the plot. This is
Speaker 1: not We're not having a difference of opinion about budget.
Speaker 1: We're not doing that. We're literally you've got a candidate
Speaker 1: who is copying close to verbatim quotes from Adolf Hitler
Speaker 1: talking about wanting America to be an oligarchy and then
Speaker 1: everyone else to be peasants who die at a lot
Speaker 1: arming rates. And it's like, I don't care if you
Speaker 1: don't think medicare for all is an option. I could
Speaker 1: show you where you're wrong, because it's math. Math is
Speaker 1: actually very unemotional. It's it would be cheaper for us
Speaker 1: to keep people healthy than to treat all the sick
Speaker 1: people in our country. But we're not even debating that.
Speaker 1: We're literally talking about like Nazis or the right to vote.
Speaker 1: It's like, full, it's so crazy that I think it's
Speaker 1: hard for people who quote unquote don't do politics to
Speaker 1: ignore at this point.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I also think for the people who are like,
Speaker 2: oh no, he's not actually going to do those things.
Speaker 2: So those people aren't I think at this point you're
Speaker 2: in the minority if you don't believe them or don't
Speaker 2: take them met their word, because they're showing you exactly
Speaker 2: what And like, I mean to your point too about
Speaker 2: there was a great respect for progress intentionally was slow.
Speaker 2: You take two steps forward one step back every switch
Speaker 2: of a presidency, and that's fine. You bring the people
Speaker 2: along with you. You have a consensus, there's consensus building.
Speaker 1: I like the way you phrase that.
Speaker 2: It's not fast and it's not how we as fast
Speaker 2: as we want it to be ever, but generally we
Speaker 2: move in a consistent, driven direction. Sure, fine, And like
Speaker 2: what you said now and like old school Republicans, it's like,
Speaker 2: well we're not. We're not out nowhere near to having
Speaker 2: those questions and debates. Debate is good, having a disagreement
Speaker 2: is good if it's filled with substance, yeah, and filled
Speaker 2: with like actually, like you feel ethically and morally obligated
Speaker 2: to defend this position and back it up with X,
Speaker 2: Y and Z. Now we're not doing that. Now we're
Speaker 2: just attacking feelings and opinions and well, well.
Speaker 1: And now we're literally just paying politicians to do things
Speaker 1: they know will hurt people, like Clarence Thomas taking four
Speaker 1: million dollars worth of bribes to then eviscerate people's rights
Speaker 1: on the Supreme Court. It's like, what they're just doing
Speaker 1: crime in public? Now, this is so crazy.
Speaker 2: And there's even more that gets uncovered. It's like, okay,
Speaker 2: what else? What else is there? Though?
Speaker 1: Okay, so I have a question for you because I
Speaker 1: get this a lot, and we did just say we
Speaker 1: sort of went off topic. We went from childhood to election.
Speaker 1: But you know, we're stressed. Our rights are on the
Speaker 1: chopping block. Alsum.
Speaker 2: So you know, and I like see each other mostly
Speaker 2: at these like political things.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're always together in DC, never in LA.
Speaker 1: And we're based on the neighbors, which.
Speaker 2: Is and like nobody else, we're like the two people
Speaker 2: I feel like from LA who were just constantly in
Speaker 2: DC and everyone's like, why are you here.
Speaker 1: And You're like, because we have work to do. So
Speaker 1: this was going to be my question because a lot
Speaker 1: of people believe the crazy lie that like entertainers are
Speaker 1: all privileged. They don't understand that most people in our
Speaker 1: industry are circus performers living paycheck to paycheck. Yes, And
Speaker 1: when people will say to me like, oh, well, what
Speaker 1: do you know, like you what do you know about
Speaker 1: you know, paying your fair share? And I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: you mean the entire democratic socialism of Hollywood, which means
Speaker 1: everybody makes a person of the money I make, Like
Speaker 1: I don't make my own money. Everybody on my team
Speaker 1: gets paid first, and I'm kind of proud of that,
Speaker 1: but like, I have to work. I have to make
Speaker 1: ten x to make even money with everyone on my team.
Speaker 1: Like that's how it is. So that's part of why
Speaker 1: we work so hard. And when people are like, what
Speaker 1: do you know about unions or this or that, I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: the only reason I have healthcare is because I'm in
Speaker 1: a union. Like I'm literally in this circus performer union
Speaker 1: sag afterra and it is the only reason I get
Speaker 1: to go to the doctor or the dentist. I'm very
Speaker 1: grateful for it.
Speaker 2: And it's great health insurance, it's great health.
Speaker 1: I mean it used to be better. But we're we're working,
Speaker 1: we're working our way back. But I think people don't
Speaker 1: understand what a team sport, our line of work is,
Speaker 1: and cause I think, you know, they see the two
Speaker 1: actors in a scene and they don't know there's two
Speaker 1: hundred people on set making that scene happen. They see
Speaker 1: you go to the Golden Globes, which everybody thinks is
Speaker 1: our life, and it's actually like this ridiculous lie, and
Speaker 1: none of us know what we're doing there, and we're
Speaker 1: wearing all borrowed clothes and borrowed jewelry and we're terrified
Speaker 1: to lose it because god forbid, we got mugged. We
Speaker 1: could never pay the brand back for the thing that
Speaker 1: was stolen from us. Like it's this wild sort of thing,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I guess it would be cool if
Speaker 1: people could see that. Most of the time we're hanging
Speaker 1: out on sets that don't have great climate control because
Speaker 1: the climate control messes up to microphones. And it's like
Speaker 1: it's the Actors' Union, the construction Union, the transportation union,
Speaker 1: like it's just us and a bunch of crew humans. Yes,
Speaker 1: And so I think because we can only move forward
Speaker 1: if we're part of a team. We believe in the
Speaker 1: team spirit of America Hoully. And that's sort of the
Speaker 1: only way I know how to explain it to people.
Speaker 1: Is that why you feel politically passionate? Or was there
Speaker 1: like a moment that made you go, oh, I need
Speaker 1: to know more about this.
Speaker 2: You know, there was a moment re me working more
Speaker 2: regularly where Prop eight, the whole Prop eight thing was happening,
Speaker 2: And it was around the time I was going to
Speaker 2: be able to vote for the first time. So I
Speaker 2: was seventeen or eighteen, and I remember there were protests
Speaker 2: on the street corner outside my apartment complex and secretly
Speaker 2: like closeted gay kid and me and my friends were like,
Speaker 2: let's go check it out. And then like one of
Speaker 2: my straight best friends like got a sign. He's like,
Speaker 2: we have to go protest. This is crazy, And so
Speaker 2: we went and protested, and it was like that small act.
Speaker 2: I always watched the news, clearly love of the Water Channel.
Speaker 2: I was engaged in, you know, those types of things,
Speaker 2: And I think because it directly impacted me Yeah, Unfortunately
Speaker 2: I shouldn't have to take something like that, But I
Speaker 2: think that was my sort of gateway into it where
Speaker 2: I saw for the first time people It wasn't politicians talking,
Speaker 2: It was just people in my neighborhood, in my community
Speaker 2: with opposing visions for what they wanted to happen in
Speaker 2: the state. And that coupled with absolutely when you're on
Speaker 2: a set, you are dealing with people from all walks
Speaker 2: of life. It is a very unglamorous job. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I think you're right. People see the movie stars of
Speaker 2: the big TV stars, and that's what you associate with it,
Speaker 2: But the actual work of it, the job of it
Speaker 2: is very humbling in the sense of, yeah, we're getting
Speaker 2: paid more than almost everybody in the crew, but they're
Speaker 2: there before us, they're there after us. They usually have
Speaker 2: families who are waiting on them, and they don't get
Speaker 2: to spend that much time with their kids. Like on Glee,
Speaker 2: we had fifteen sixteen hour days regularly. Yeah, and so
Speaker 2: it's a way too. It was always a way to
Speaker 2: really quickly check any amount of privilege you had walking
Speaker 2: into that situation, because like for Glee, it was also
Speaker 2: the first time I was making any sort of money,
Speaker 2: and it felt very strange and it almost felt wrong
Speaker 2: in a way. And the amount of respect you have
Speaker 2: for people doing the gaffers and the sound and the
Speaker 2: that we know nothing about, right, and like, this show
Speaker 2: doesn't get made without hundreds of people, like you said,
Speaker 2: showing up every single day. And I think because I
Speaker 2: was lucky. I think because the type of show that
Speaker 2: we were on and when it represented, the crew was
Speaker 2: affected by that. It felt like it was a full
Speaker 2: team effort. We're doing this really positive thing for society,
Speaker 2: and it never felt like it was in us and
Speaker 2: them thing. It's how I learned about unions. It's how
Speaker 2: I learned the importance of unions and respecting all those
Speaker 2: different types of viewpoints. Having people come and work on
Speaker 2: the show that was a really super gay show, and
Speaker 2: watching people Nobody talked about their personal beliefs, but you could,
Speaker 2: you know, sort of sense things changing and how people
Speaker 2: were into it and like, oh, my kids really like this.
Speaker 2: And so it was a really nice way to sort
Speaker 2: of get a slice of life, a slice of different
Speaker 2: communities and demographics that you wouldn't normally someone that was
Speaker 2: twenty years old wouldn't normally be interacting with on a
Speaker 2: daily basis for that many hours. And so yeah, I
Speaker 2: feel like a more well informed citizen because of that,
Speaker 2: and because every day you're up against other people who
Speaker 2: are unlike you. And I think that is and that
Speaker 2: is the old way that you know, I think politics
Speaker 2: used to work where you get in rooms with people.
Speaker 2: If you only surround yourself with people who have the
Speaker 2: exact same opinions and like experience of you as you,
Speaker 2: you're not going to get anywhere because it's it's just
Speaker 2: all you're in a vacuum and everyone's agreeing, and there's
Speaker 2: you don't have to defend your position, and being challenged
Speaker 2: and seeing you know, things from other people's perspective is
Speaker 2: what we do as actors and as citizens. I think
Speaker 2: that's what you have to do to be well informed
Speaker 2: and well engaged.
Speaker 1: I agree. And now a word from our sponsors, who
Speaker 1: make this show possible. Well, and I think it's really
Speaker 1: important to have a willingness to noodle on something, to
Speaker 1: really get into the nitty gritty of it, and in art,
Speaker 1: you know, in our line of work, that's so important.
Speaker 1: You have to sit with your coworkers and figure out,
Speaker 1: like what you're doing to make the thing on the
Speaker 1: page be more than just typeface. And then for some reason,
Speaker 1: we've gotten to this point where people don't really want
Speaker 1: to they don't want to noodle on things, and they
Speaker 1: don't want to accept reality. It's like, part of the
Speaker 1: reason I've become such a policy nerd and I get
Speaker 1: so deep in the data is because math is unemotional.
Speaker 1: It's just addition and subtraction, et cetera, et cetera. Like
Speaker 1: and when people just say, well, that's just not true,
Speaker 1: or you know, this politician hasn't done anything. I literally
Speaker 1: look at the pages and pages and pages of this
Speaker 1: person's record. I'm not impressed by that, and I'm like, what.
Speaker 2: I had this conversation with somebody the other day. It
Speaker 2: was fascinating because we can get stuck in our you know,
Speaker 2: people who agree with me or ourselves. And I was
Speaker 2: at a dinner and there were these like two young
Speaker 2: guys in the early twenties, and politics came up, and
Speaker 2: I knew how like the friends who invited me to
Speaker 2: dinner felt. I knew we were all on the same page.
Speaker 2: And this kid was talking about it was after the
Speaker 2: assassination attempt of Trump, and he was like all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, out of nowhere, just very gung ho, loud
Speaker 2: and boisterous, but not saying anything about like pro Trump stuff,
Speaker 2: and I felt I was like, this is great. I
Speaker 2: want to hear what other people are saying and thinking.
Speaker 2: And then when we I was like, okay, well that's
Speaker 2: not true, and here's why you know what you just said.
Speaker 2: It's like, well, I'd love to see those numbers. I'm like,
Speaker 2: you can, you absolutely, he can. Those are all publicly available. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you can. You can pull up your phone right now
Speaker 2: and search on Google. We can talk about inflation all day.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And he just sort of like shut down immediately. And
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, because what I heard you say
Speaker 2: was everything from a Fox News pundant like, which I get,
Speaker 2: and I understand why you're saying these things, but here's
Speaker 2: some here's some pushback for you. I like to be challenged.
Speaker 2: I like someone to come at me with numbers and like,
Speaker 2: I love, I have no problem of meeting I was wrong,
Speaker 2: but like, give me the data, like prove it to me.
Speaker 1: That's what's frustrating for me too. Like when we talk
Speaker 1: about the the sort of and I don't mean this
Speaker 1: to be rude. It's it's literally a quote from an
Speaker 1: article I read like the brain rot being caused by
Speaker 1: Fox News. This is a company that multiple times has
Speaker 1: gone to court and defended themselves by saying, we are
Speaker 1: not a news program, we're entertainment. No intelligent viewer would
Speaker 1: believe we are the news. And I'm like, you're you're
Speaker 1: literally going to court and making fun of your own viewers.
Speaker 1: You're calling them stupid. But your defense for the reason
Speaker 1: that they're quote stupid is because you're lying to them.
Speaker 2: They don't care.
Speaker 1: You are lying to these people and then riling them
Speaker 1: up and then causing them to go in the streets
Speaker 1: with you know, semi automatic weapons and like do the
Speaker 1: most insane and then going, well, that wasn't our fault.
Speaker 2: As long as the check clears. It's like, as long
Speaker 2: as the check clears, they don't care. There's no moral
Speaker 2: obligational responsibility.
Speaker 1: Well, and what's crazy is that someone like a Tucker
Speaker 1: Carlson will make fun of people like me and you
Speaker 1: when he was making forty million dollars a year to
Speaker 1: lie to people on Fox News. And I'm like, bitch,
Speaker 1: in my entire life, I don't think I'm ever going
Speaker 1: to see that much money. I think I would have
Speaker 1: to win the lottery.
Speaker 2: Used to make like eighty million dollars or something a
Speaker 2: year from this podcast or radio show.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And I'm out here being like, well, if
Speaker 1: I make a dollar, I pay my agent ten cents,
Speaker 1: I pay my manager ten cents, I pay my publicist
Speaker 1: ten cents, I pay my assistant ten cents. Then I
Speaker 1: pay my union, then I pay my taxes. If I'm lucky,
Speaker 1: I keep twenty cents.
Speaker 2: You're a really good friend, and you like also throw
Speaker 2: really great events at your house, but probably aren't either,
Speaker 2: so you're not.
Speaker 1: But they're like the source of my joy.
Speaker 2: But you know it's conf you're spending yeah, man like.
Speaker 1: And it's just so weird. I'm like, y'all, y'all accuse
Speaker 1: us of like not knowing how to share, and you're
Speaker 1: just over here being robber barons. It's so weird.
Speaker 2: It is so weird.
Speaker 1: But I have a question to go back to the
Speaker 1: place where we began, sort of fish about what you
Speaker 1: were talking about on Glee, like that experience of being
Speaker 1: on your first show having it be such an enormous hit.
Speaker 1: I mean, from critically acclaimed to like a ratings juggernaut
Speaker 1: to also surfacing these social conversations about outcasts and queer
Speaker 1: kids and even disability and like all of these things
Speaker 1: that weren't really happening before. And when you talk about
Speaker 1: and I want to know more about this, what it
Speaker 1: was like to see people expand perhaps as they worked
Speaker 1: on the show, you know, in front of her behind
Speaker 1: the camera. But the real first question about that that
Speaker 1: I want to ask is really for you, Like what
Speaker 1: did that feel like for you? How old were you?
Speaker 1: What was the audition process, Like did you know this
Speaker 1: was going to be really special or were you like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is going to work. Is
Speaker 1: anybody going to care about like, you know, quote unquote
Speaker 1: outcast kids singing? Like? What was that like?
Speaker 2: The My manager called me and she was like, there's
Speaker 2: this great pilot And it was right towards the end
Speaker 2: of it was right after the writer strike of seven, okay,
Speaker 2: and so it was supposed to be a mid season replacement, okay,
Speaker 2: And so it was early two thousand and eight. My
Speaker 2: manager loved the script and she was like, you need
Speaker 2: to read this. It's hilarious and there's music in it.
Speaker 2: I didn't really think too much of the music component. Okay,
Speaker 2: I was doing music at the time, I know, and
Speaker 2: so it seemed like, oh, this is fun. But I
Speaker 2: couldn't in my little simple brain couldn't really conceptualize how
Speaker 2: it was going to be done. And so I just
Speaker 2: read it like a normal script and it was really dark,
Speaker 2: like the humor was so dark and sarcastic, and I
Speaker 2: loved it and I laughed out loud. And you know,
Speaker 2: I'll audition for anything, but it's not very often that
Speaker 2: you get a script that you really really love. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And it was one of those like, oh, this is
Speaker 2: very good. Yes, I want to absolutely audition for it.
Speaker 2: We'll see who knows, you know, you get one out
Speaker 2: of every eight hundred auditions, whatever it is. And so
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I'll audition for this whatever. And
Speaker 2: so I went an audition for it. It was me
Speaker 2: and Robert Orich, the casting director, in his little office,
Speaker 2: and it was one of those places where everybody in
Speaker 2: the waiting room can hear.
Speaker 1: You, oh, like.
Speaker 2: Nightmare, especially because you're singing. It's already bad enough when
Speaker 2: people can like hear you doing the scenes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, through the door, you just hear. But I love him.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's I have. I'm like sweating out thinking about
Speaker 2: it the worst. It's the worst possible setup. Yeah, But
Speaker 2: I went in there. I did the song I sing
Speaker 2: Let It Be by the Beatles. I didn't nail it
Speaker 2: because I thought he would just need a verse and
Speaker 2: a chorus, and so I only really practiced that. And
Speaker 2: then I got past the chorus and he's like, keep going,
Speaker 2: I don't know any more.
Speaker 1: Words, like can I go back to the beginning, And I.
Speaker 2: Think I just started like repeating the first verse and
Speaker 2: then eventually stopped and laughed and then did the scene
Speaker 2: and he's like, Okay, when you come back, can you
Speaker 2: prepare two songs? And the scenes are great. I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I guess I'm coming back. And then I had to
Speaker 2: for Ryan Murphy and the entire team. It went from
Speaker 2: being from one guy to like fifteen people yeah, and
Speaker 2: Ryan's office on Paramount. And then I found out a
Speaker 2: couple days later that they wanted me to test for it.
Speaker 2: I had never tested for anything before. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: and so I then had to wait six weeks for
Speaker 2: them too. Yes, I found out I was testing and like, well,
Speaker 2: we have to find other people.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Because they needed you to test with
Speaker 1: other actors for other roles.
Speaker 2: And they didn't have anybody to test yet for any
Speaker 2: of the other roles either, So I think they had secretly,
Speaker 2: I think they had cast Leah, and I think they
Speaker 2: had possibly cast Matthew Morrison. Okay, and I maybe Jane
Speaker 2: was in the picture being talked about at some point.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: But any of the kids besides Leah they didn't have,
Speaker 2: so I had to wait and didn't.
Speaker 1: Am I crazy because time is so bendy since the pandemic. Also,
Speaker 1: I've learned that people with ADHD have time blindness. So
Speaker 1: maybe it's not the pandemic. Maybe it's just my brain.
Speaker 1: But what I feel like I remember because I remember
Speaker 1: when she did Spring Awakening and like it was so
Speaker 1: I mean, just like this revelatory show. And I feel
Speaker 1: like Spring Awakening led to her getting cast on Glee, right.
Speaker 2: Yes, because I mean that voice like duh insane?
Speaker 1: Okay, she.
Speaker 2: I think she was still in Spring Awakening. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: So I think Ryan had seen her. Jenna was also
Speaker 2: in Spring Awakening.
Speaker 1: Oh that's right, Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So like they were fully pulling from.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, they were pulling Broadway kids left, Yes.
Speaker 2: Okay, which me I went and tested against. My first
Speaker 2: test was against nobody. They had taped people in New
Speaker 2: York and then said so. Then two days later they
Speaker 2: flew in a Broadway guy from New York and I
Speaker 2: tested against him. And when I found out he was
Speaker 2: on Broader and were texting my like manager and my sister. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, this is a good run. Like I
Speaker 2: had two tests. I've never been called back four times
Speaker 2: for something like you know, oh my god, you see whatever,
Speaker 2: like this is a good experience. Pretty devastating, but yeah,
Speaker 2: and then I got it, which was wild. I was twenty.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, because I know you were
Speaker 1: twenty when it aired, So it was it was pretty tight.
Speaker 2: Yes, I got it in September of two thousand and eight.
Speaker 2: We shot the pilot all of October, and then it
Speaker 2: aired in May of two thousand and nine. May only
Speaker 2: so because they ended up holding it. It ended up
Speaker 2: not being They liked it so much that they picked
Speaker 2: it up for a full half season. Originally it was
Speaker 2: going to be picked up for maybe six or seven episodes.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, they gave us thirteen episodes and we're going
Speaker 2: to hold it into the fall. But we aired the
Speaker 2: pilot after the season finale of American Idol Smart just
Speaker 2: to like, you guys see it and then we'll be
Speaker 2: back in three months. But no, an answer to one
Speaker 2: of your other questions, we did not have any idea
Speaker 2: if it was going to be a success because there
Speaker 2: was nothing really to compare it to any musical show
Speaker 2: had not done well. Right, But we knew and what
Speaker 2: we really learned from the crew because this was almost
Speaker 2: all of us. It was our first show. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: the crew who were veterans were like, this is special.
Speaker 2: You guys should enjoy this and so and that's who
Speaker 2: we are performing for. I mean, for the six seasons,
Speaker 2: that's who we were always performing for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god, how fun.
Speaker 2: And so like they were such I mean every crew
Speaker 2: is integral part of a set, but yeah, I feel
Speaker 2: like there was even that extra layer of they were
Speaker 2: our audience and they were really involved in those performances,
Speaker 2: even if they were never on camera. And from the
Speaker 2: pilot on, we really benefited from that and we knew
Speaker 2: we had a great time doing it. We loved it.
Speaker 2: We loved the humor, we loved the music. When we
Speaker 2: saw the pilot. It was pretty overwhelming in the sense
Speaker 2: of I think this works really well, but like, who
Speaker 2: are we to judge?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you just never know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the thing, Like how many friends did
Speaker 2: I have who got pilots and no one ever knew
Speaker 2: and no one ever saw them because they didn't. More
Speaker 2: often than not, pilots didn't get picked up.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors. I made this
Speaker 1: show that I was so passionate about years ago, like
Speaker 1: so passionate about, and I'll never forget the DP such
Speaker 1: a baller sat me down and was like, I've never
Speaker 1: been wrong about a show that I've dpeyed. This is
Speaker 1: going to air, This is going to win every award.
Speaker 1: This is one of the best scripts I've ever read.
Speaker 1: I have had the most fun working on this and
Speaker 1: watching all of you actors and da da da da
Speaker 1: da da da, and it it had a political bent
Speaker 1: to it. And this this premise of our pilot, which
Speaker 1: was like this could never ever happen, wouldn't it be
Speaker 1: crazy if this happened in the government essentially happened because
Speaker 1: we had a con man get elected as the president,
Speaker 1: and literally the network was like, it's an incredible project.
Speaker 1: We can't we can't put this on the air. And
Speaker 1: I was like, this, but this is my baby, this
Speaker 1: is like, this is the love of my working life.
Speaker 2: Like is that what's making me feel better?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And they were just like, yeah, we're not looking
Speaker 1: to become targets for the president, so by so sorry.
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, this baller ass show we
Speaker 1: made will never see the light of day and right,
Speaker 1: but it's like you just never you never know what's
Speaker 1: going to be the circumstance. You never know what's going
Speaker 1: to happen in the world. You never know if it's
Speaker 1: going to be exactly what culture needs or something where
Speaker 1: you've missed a window. And that's one of the things
Speaker 1: I think was so profound about your show. I mean
Speaker 1: talk about like parties at my house obviously, like Jenny
Speaker 1: and I did that, you know, professionally in our off
Speaker 1: time for a decade as roommates together, and you were
Speaker 1: at most of them. And like Jenny was the one
Speaker 1: who introduced me to the leak. She was like, what
Speaker 1: do you mean you're not watching this show? And I
Speaker 1: was like, I've heard it's really good, but like I'm
Speaker 1: I'm making my I'm on set for sixteen eighteen hours
Speaker 1: on my show, and she was like, I don't care.
Speaker 1: Like Sundays we're watching, we're doing something, and we just
Speaker 1: started binging the show. And so when you and I
Speaker 1: became friends, I was just like are I'm so proud
Speaker 1: of you and also like are you good? Are you
Speaker 1: so tired? Are you okay? Like do you need a hug?
Speaker 1: Because I knew. I was like, I know how hard
Speaker 1: are hours are on us? And we have one basketball
Speaker 1: day and episode and you're essentially doing a full Broadway
Speaker 1: production every single week, Like, sir, are you taking epsom
Speaker 1: salt bats? What are you doing for yourself?
Speaker 2: But I felt like when I met you, because your
Speaker 2: show was just so gigantic, you were all wildly famous,
Speaker 2: which is a different thing than our show.
Speaker 1: Yes, I didn't feel like that.
Speaker 2: I was the exact age. I think I was the
Speaker 2: exact demographic who grew up watching you guys, And so
Speaker 2: I think I could at least feel like you were
Speaker 2: on every magazine cover, like just everywhere.
Speaker 1: I just feel like all we did was get made
Speaker 1: fun of on the soup. But maybe that's that human thing, right,
Speaker 1: But people compliment you and you're like it can't possibly
Speaker 1: be true, and then people tell you you're terrible, and
Speaker 1: you're like, they must be right.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's that you can't feel it when
Speaker 2: you're inside of it. Yeah, you can to an extent,
Speaker 2: but when you're in the beast of it, in the machine,
Speaker 2: like you were off shooting, especially in another state, so
Speaker 2: you're so far removed from it. We were locked on
Speaker 2: these stages in la but like ten months out of
Speaker 2: the year though, so we didn't have a lot of
Speaker 2: public interaction. It was only really when we went on
Speaker 2: tour the first few seasons, or we would go home
Speaker 2: for the holidays and you would go to other states
Speaker 2: and like, oh, something different, right, people are watching this.
Speaker 2: This is crazy because I didn't feel like that, Like
Speaker 2: we were just having a good time. And I'm sure
Speaker 2: it was a similar experience for you, where yeah, like
Speaker 2: I'm working, I've made a lot of great friends. I
Speaker 2: do imagine, though, you're I imagine the dynamic. We didn't
Speaker 2: all become individually, like really famous. The show became famous.
Speaker 2: I feel like your guys a show and you was
Speaker 2: individuals became quite famous, which I think would be an
Speaker 2: additional sort of mind because everybody's young everybody's having probably
Speaker 2: like the most success they had had up to that point.
Speaker 1: It was my first show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so there's no training for that, and so
Speaker 2: the amount that we interfaced with that, I could see
Speaker 2: how it affected everybody, But I think you guys, like personally,
Speaker 2: were on a different level. And yeah, I can't imagine
Speaker 2: how hard or just the mind.
Speaker 1: What's also weird is were we you know, our show
Speaker 1: premiered in the early two thousands, so it was very
Speaker 1: much Now we understand, right like we've had the Britney
Speaker 1: Spears documentary. We we understand the way that the press
Speaker 1: in particular treated women. And I think what was the
Speaker 1: most alarming about it for us is that they essentially
Speaker 1: decided what caricature of a person we were, and then
Speaker 1: they've tried to remit us to that for clickbait ever since.
Speaker 1: And it's a very weird and bizarre thing to be
Speaker 1: reduced to like a cartoon version of a human. But
Speaker 1: I think that's true for everyone, and and society has
Speaker 1: also shifted in so many interesting ways, Like I as
Speaker 1: a fan of your show, and aside from being aside
Speaker 1: from being a person who has a friendship with you,
Speaker 1: like as a fan of watching you as a performer.
Speaker 1: I loved your portrayal of Already. I loved him, I
Speaker 1: loved everything that you did with it. I thought, I
Speaker 1: just thought you were so beautiful. And I understand that
Speaker 1: as things have shifted and we are having different kinds
Speaker 1: of conversations about representation. You have also publicly said, I'm
Speaker 1: an able bodied person, I shouldn't have been playing this
Speaker 1: disabled character, and you played him so beautifully, and you
Speaker 1: brought that experience into the forefront of culture for so
Speaker 1: many people who have lived with disabilities and been kept
Speaker 1: out of so many spaces. And I remember hearing you
Speaker 1: first talk about it and thinking like, yeah, absolutely, And
Speaker 1: now I'm also in this position where I feel like
Speaker 1: it's a both and yes, of course, like they should,
Speaker 1: casting should work harder to find people who have lived this,
Speaker 1: and you did such a beautiful job as a storyteller
Speaker 1: making all of us learn about stories like his. And
Speaker 1: I would imagine because I know who you are and
Speaker 1: we talked about this earlier, like the research you did
Speaker 1: and the people you spent time with, I know you
Speaker 1: carried them into set with you every single day that
Speaker 1: you played Artie. So it's like I guess I bring
Speaker 1: that up only to say we've shifted so much about
Speaker 1: so many conversations and then in certain ways, I mean,
Speaker 1: at least with media culture, I think not enough has shifted.
Speaker 1: But how do you kind of feel about all of
Speaker 1: it now? Has your purview expanded? Like do you have
Speaker 1: more room for both kindness and accountability with yourself? Like
Speaker 1: what is that like? All these years later?
Speaker 2: Very well said and asked, and thank you. I love it.
Speaker 1: I know it's really difficult. I like can't even look
Speaker 1: at you while I'm like giving you your flowers.
Speaker 2: As a friend though people I don't know if people
Speaker 2: know though you are very supportive of all your friends,
Speaker 2: and like, there's been times when I've wanted to get
Speaker 2: an audition, I couldn't get an audition, and you helped
Speaker 2: me before be like, Okay, if you were in a meeting,
Speaker 2: what do you want to get out of it? What
Speaker 2: are you trying to say? Help me formulate my plan?
Speaker 2: And it works and it worked, and so you're just
Speaker 2: you're very supportive of your friends, and I appreciate it,
Speaker 2: so thank you. I completely agree with everything you said.
Speaker 2: I think at the time it already was not the
Speaker 2: first audition I had playing somebody in a wheelchair. Those
Speaker 2: were things that just happened. And I think I was
Speaker 2: blissfully ignorant to representation in general and what that actually meant,
Speaker 2: because through playing a character who was not normally seen
Speaker 2: on television on network television every single week, and seeing
Speaker 2: how much it meant to people in chairs, especially to
Speaker 2: kids in chairs, and having their parents tell me that
Speaker 2: the kids and then actors who were in chairs needed
Speaker 2: to see that. And yes, in an ideal world would
Speaker 2: already have been played by somebody who was actually in
Speaker 2: a chair. Absolutely, But I also think Glee was at
Speaker 2: that time, and we always say this like it was
Speaker 2: sort of that bridge. It was the end of an
Speaker 2: era in the beginning of a new era, where at
Speaker 2: the end of it we knew better about a lot
Speaker 2: of things and culture was shifting for the better in
Speaker 2: that way. Yeah, where you know, there's some things in
Speaker 2: Glee that did not age well. We were sort of
Speaker 2: workshopping those things, what works, what doesn't work.
Speaker 1: Oh, there are things that I see when I rewatch
Speaker 1: One Tree Hill and I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker 1: And some of them are fights we didn't even know
Speaker 1: to have, and some of them are fights I tried
Speaker 1: to have and lost because you know, we have no
Speaker 1: power as babies on a set, and good god, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I was right, I should have fought harder on that one.
Speaker 1: And then there's there's the things you don't see coming
Speaker 1: and you just go, oh, there really has an age. Ye,
Speaker 1: I can't believe nobody caught that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we we're watching season four now and
Speaker 2: we just started to deal with a trans character, and
Speaker 2: every time there's like a scene that's around it, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: how is this going to go? And I don't even
Speaker 2: think I realized at the time what we were the
Speaker 2: significance of that, even if it was not exactly right
Speaker 2: and it wasn't a lot of the time, the fact
Speaker 2: that it was happening at all, and trying to figure
Speaker 2: out to have that conversation amongst young people, because there's
Speaker 2: also a show that kids watch with their families a lot,
Speaker 2: so this is an introduction and an education to many
Speaker 2: generations who are watching this show together. But back to
Speaker 2: the arty of it all, I felt I did. I
Speaker 2: felt very privileged to play it. I felt play him,
Speaker 2: I felt a gigantic responsibility. It did feel weird and
Speaker 2: uncomfortable for some of that because like I'm obviously not
Speaker 2: in a wheelchair like this, but I got hired to
Speaker 2: do a job, and that's I'm very grateful for that.
Speaker 2: It's conflicting a lot of the time, but it was
Speaker 2: let me just sort of do no harm, I think,
Speaker 2: is sort of what I felt like.
Speaker 1: They did. They hire like a specialist for you, Did
Speaker 1: you have a movement coach, Like how did you learn
Speaker 1: or you were responsible to go and meet folks and
Speaker 1: chairs and do all your research and learn about, you know,
Speaker 1: what sorts of paralysis he might have, Like that was
Speaker 1: all up to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I yeah, And so I was like, uh,
Speaker 2: I guess I'll just try to go meet people. And
Speaker 2: I did, like through the high school I had just
Speaker 2: graduated from a year before in the community college that
Speaker 2: I went to at the high school and all that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and just also just trying to be observant and trying
Speaker 2: to see what life was like for somebody to chair
Speaker 2: in real life, right in different spaces. And I also
Speaker 2: got critiques from that community. I remember at the beginning
Speaker 2: of season two, I was getting fitted for a new
Speaker 2: chair and the guy who was fitting me who was
Speaker 2: in a chair. He corrected the way I was sitting.
Speaker 2: He's like, by the way and one breath. I was
Speaker 2: horrified that I had done twenty two episodes that was
Speaker 2: seemingly wrong. I also was very, very grateful that he
Speaker 2: felt like he could speak up yea and say that
Speaker 2: to me, and he was absolutely going to be heard,
Speaker 2: because again I was like this, let me not do
Speaker 2: this incorrectly. Thank you give me all the feedback, and
Speaker 2: so any any position, you know, any argument of that
Speaker 2: I shouldn't been playing the apartment. Yeah, I hear you, absolutely,
Speaker 2: And now we do know better. And I think now
Speaker 2: that characters like that have been seen then also creator, showrunners, creators, writers,
Speaker 2: casting directors now know to look for that now, and
Speaker 2: people in chairs know that they can be cast in something,
Speaker 2: and I think that has to we have to challenge
Speaker 2: it from sides.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's really a beautiful way to put it.
Speaker 2: When those opportunities come up, you just yeah, like you said,
Speaker 2: you sued to work a little harder to find the
Speaker 2: right people for the gig.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. The thing
Speaker 1: that you said earlier I really love is remembering that
Speaker 1: progress like getting farther down the road does always require
Speaker 1: a bridge. Somebody has to help build the bridge from
Speaker 1: the way we think we've always done it to what's
Speaker 1: possible on the other side of the river. And what
Speaker 1: a cool thing that, you know, in this timeline of
Speaker 1: culture and storytelling, you helped to do that and really
Speaker 1: did help to bring a conversation about representation and disability
Speaker 1: into the forefront because Glee became this I mean juggernaut,
Speaker 1: Like what a huge show. The awards and the stories
Speaker 1: and things, and I mean what was amazing and what
Speaker 1: was dramatic? And you know what, I think any show
Speaker 1: that lasts for as long as ours did, like there's
Speaker 1: always rumors of drama and YadA YadA, and it's like
Speaker 1: half of it's a bullshit and half it's worse than
Speaker 1: anyone ever knows.
Speaker 2: The stuff that doesn't get out as always it's the
Speaker 2: craziest part. Yeah, Like you made up this thing. We
Speaker 2: used to like bring like tabloids into the choir room
Speaker 2: and just read them out loud for everyone and we
Speaker 2: all laugh because none of it was ever ever true.
Speaker 2: And I will say, like we were also it's family,
Speaker 2: so like if there is a disagreement or sort of infighting.
Speaker 2: We can talk about it, yeah, but if anybody else
Speaker 2: says it, oh, it's very defensive of it. Because there
Speaker 2: was one time, I think there was like one article
Speaker 2: that was a little too close. Yeah, and we're like,
Speaker 2: first of all, who said that, Like who, Like, we
Speaker 2: can handle this internally. This is nobody's business because it's
Speaker 2: an it sounds disproportionately like like a big deal. When
Speaker 2: other people hear about it, like you said, they try
Speaker 2: to cast you in these caricatures of what they think
Speaker 2: you are. Yes, and it's like that's obviously not how
Speaker 2: life works, that's no. And so yeah, there was a
Speaker 2: moment where then we all, even if we had a disagreement,
Speaker 2: we all band it together to be like who's them, all, Yeah,
Speaker 2: we don't do this.
Speaker 1: This is we handle our sh in the family. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, Like we can have disagreements, that's fine, that's
Speaker 2: what humans do, and we come back and we're all
Speaker 2: family at the end of the day. And I think
Speaker 2: that's where a lot of those probably in a lot
Speaker 2: of sets, it gets blown out of proportion and misconstrued
Speaker 2: because yeah, you just hear one side of it, but
Speaker 2: most of the time. It was all fun and it's
Speaker 2: also just.
Speaker 1: So silly because it's like, listen, humans are human. They
Speaker 1: have conflict, they have drama, they fall in love, they
Speaker 1: split up. People get their feelings hurt, sometimes over real things,
Speaker 1: sometimes over nothing. You know, you have to have growing
Speaker 1: pains with people, and I think they forget. Like what
Speaker 1: I always say about a set is it sort of
Speaker 1: like an arranged marriage. You don't know any of these
Speaker 1: people and then one day you show up and you're
Speaker 1: just married. You spend eighteen hours a day together and
Speaker 1: you have to learn people's personalities, quirks, how to communicate.
Speaker 1: Everyone has different communication styles, everyone has different backgrounds. Like
Speaker 1: it's a really wild thing to have to do and
Speaker 1: then also shoot ten pages of dialogue a day, Like
Speaker 1: it's crazy, but.
Speaker 2: We it's a miracle. If it works.
Speaker 1: It's a miracle. If it works. Was it weird for
Speaker 1: you or relieving for you when it was time to
Speaker 1: wrap and move on. Were you like, oh, I'm so
Speaker 1: ready to get out of here, or were you like, wait,
Speaker 1: what do you mean we're not coming back to work
Speaker 1: on Monday? Or a little bit of both.
Speaker 2: I think it was a little bit of both, but
Speaker 2: mostly wait, no, let's not stop this. I think I
Speaker 2: because the magic of showing up to Paramount to work.
Speaker 2: There was so little turnover in our crewe that it was,
Speaker 2: for the most part, the same group of people for
Speaker 2: six years. Well we shot it for seven years, but
Speaker 2: it was six seasons. Yeah, And so that part was
Speaker 2: like the really sad part because every time you got
Speaker 2: picked up for another season and you're going to come back,
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, I get to drive through these gates.
Speaker 2: It's such a beautiful lot. It was like romanticizing the
Speaker 2: whole Hollywood thing of it all, and you know, like
Speaker 2: we got to sing and dance and we felt like
Speaker 2: clowns and like this is not serious and we're entertaining people.
Speaker 2: And the show turned into that thing where it was
Speaker 2: representing a lot of different people who weren't normally represented,
Speaker 2: and that felt good and it just checked off a
Speaker 2: lot of boxes that don't normally get simultaneously checked off
Speaker 2: when you get a job like that. The other part
Speaker 2: of it was it did feel like it was time
Speaker 2: to just put it to bed. I think after Corey
Speaker 2: passed it was the show never really recovered, I think internally,
Speaker 2: and then I think creatively. I don't even know how
Speaker 2: the writer the writers had to go into the writer's
Speaker 2: room and then start writing immediately. How do you how
Speaker 2: do you do that?
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't know how they did that, but I just think,
Speaker 2: you know, it's a it's a different it's weird going
Speaker 2: to work after that, it's weird showing up to the
Speaker 2: same places. And the show just never also creatively yet recovered,
Speaker 2: I think from that, And so it wasn't didn't feel
Speaker 2: the same, It didn't feels good, it didn't like the work.
Speaker 2: I think everybody tried their hardest. I'm not trying to
Speaker 2: share anybody, but I think it was I mean Ryan
Speaker 2: has said that. Ryan came on our podcast and said, yeah,
Speaker 2: we probably should have just stopped it. But the same time,
Speaker 2: it also felt like maybe this could be a cathartic thing.
Speaker 1: But I mean, how do you how do you recover
Speaker 1: from something like that in your life, let alone having
Speaker 1: to do it in real time on camera with two
Speaker 1: hundred people. That's heavy and hard.
Speaker 2: Very very strange as an understatement, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: But to your point, I mean, everything from the most
Speaker 1: fantastical sort of romance of what your career can be
Speaker 1: to seismic loss. You guys really did all of it.
Speaker 1: You you had such a wide spectrum of experience on
Speaker 1: your show. Did you and Jenna want to do a
Speaker 1: rewatch so that you could make sense of it all?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: How? Because because first you launched showmance and then now
Speaker 1: we have and that's what you really messed which but
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with the artwork. Not to make a full pivot,
Speaker 1: but this is how my brain works. But what did
Speaker 1: you want to kind of have a space to process
Speaker 1: everything and get to to really hold on to the
Speaker 1: good stuff? What? What? What made you want to go
Speaker 1: back and do this? I know, I know us girls
Speaker 1: needed to. And there was a point where I was like, well, listen,
Speaker 1: now the world knows our boss was a monster and
Speaker 1: a creep and he can't really do his the old
Speaker 1: line of like I don't know why these girls would
Speaker 1: make up these stories about me, I was like, Bro,
Speaker 1: we haven't even told people the worst of the you did.
Speaker 1: You should feel thankful. I hope you never crawl out
Speaker 1: of the hole that hopefully you've crawled into. But we
Speaker 1: wanted to be able to own our own joy. We
Speaker 1: wanted to be able to say like that wasn't his world.
Speaker 1: That was our world. Like once it once it came
Speaker 1: to us, once the scripts were in our hands, once
Speaker 1: we were on set with our people, like that was
Speaker 1: ours and when he came to town it was a bummer,
Speaker 1: but like that was that was that's for us. We
Speaker 1: wanted to throw out the trash and hold on to
Speaker 1: all like the good antiques. What what was the reason
Speaker 1: for you.
Speaker 2: To We did not want to do it. We started
Speaker 2: showmans and then we just kept getting asked about Glee
Speaker 2: and we're like, okay, I guess we'll do a rewatch
Speaker 2: and we sort of half asked it. We was pre
Speaker 2: and that's what you really missed. Showmance evolved into a.
Speaker 1: It was like a special project basically.
Speaker 2: Yes, and so we did it and it was fine,
Speaker 2: but we were not really into it. It was and
Speaker 2: then Nia passed away and then we were just like no, no, no.
Speaker 2: Immediately we're like, yeah, we're not doing this anymore.
Speaker 1: Well, and to have that happened twice, I mean, yeah.
Speaker 2: We're like we're done with this. We can't, we don't
Speaker 2: want to watch it. We just needed a break. And
Speaker 2: then a couple of years later, my brother in law,
Speaker 2: who works for iHeart. He was like, you and general
Speaker 2: should think about doing picking up the Glee watch the
Speaker 2: Glee Rewatch podcast again. Wasn't even saying iHeart should do it.
Speaker 2: He was just saying, you guys should just do it. It
Speaker 2: was great, and I was just so resistant to it.
Speaker 2: We're both like, I just don't. I don't think so,
Speaker 2: I don't wanna. It's hard. It was hard the first
Speaker 2: time because it was the first time I had watched
Speaker 2: it since Corey and then after and I it was
Speaker 2: just like, we don't need to revisit this, let's let's
Speaker 2: just not But I don't know if something was in
Speaker 2: the air or Jenna and I were sort of like,
Speaker 2: let's just talk to them because iHeart then came to
Speaker 2: us and we're like, look, you guys can do this
Speaker 2: however you want. We think it would be great, you know,
Speaker 2: for X Y and Z and something in this I
Speaker 2: don't know what it was exactly. We're like, okay, let's
Speaker 2: do this. I think we shifted in our minds how
Speaker 2: we would do it. It would be like an intentional thing.
Speaker 2: Let's talk to the crew, Let's talk to everybody who
Speaker 2: was really on it. We talked to Ryan wasn't involved
Speaker 2: in the first one. Ryan was like, yes, let's do it.
Speaker 2: I'll come on and do the first episode. Like great,
Speaker 2: and he sort of spilled everything. We ended up being
Speaker 2: two episodes, and that sort of set the precedent and
Speaker 2: gave permission for everybody to be as open as he was.
Speaker 2: Because if the head person is like the filters off
Speaker 2: and here's all the things that I think we did right,
Speaker 2: here's all the things I think we fell short on,
Speaker 2: then that permission structure changes for everybody, and I think,
Speaker 2: like what you said, it was also about reclaiming the
Speaker 2: narrative because that ended up being the biggest thing for
Speaker 2: us was people were talking about a Glee curse and
Speaker 2: people were talking about everyone hated each other. Oh the
Speaker 2: show was you know this, this and that and it.
Speaker 2: The weird thing that happened after npassed was that we
Speaker 2: all with Ryan sort of reconnected. Everyone sort of aired
Speaker 2: their grievances with him, and he took the call. He
Speaker 2: called everybody for the most part and just sort of
Speaker 2: took it because people had, you know, issues, sure, but yeah,
Speaker 2: and he's a different person. He has kids, he has
Speaker 2: this empire. Yeah, but he his brain is a steel trapping.
Speaker 2: He does not forget anything and sort of owned up
Speaker 2: to the ways in which he fell short. And in
Speaker 2: his defense, I also think, you know, nobody trains you
Speaker 2: to go from being a writer to running a billion
Speaker 2: dollar business within a year. No, there's no way to
Speaker 2: know how to do that correctly.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 2: That coupled with like, guys, this was like such a
Speaker 2: joyful experience for us. We really did have the best time.
Speaker 2: Sure there were hard times, especially towards the end, and
Speaker 2: like you said, after you spend that much amount of
Speaker 2: time with people, there's going to be especially when there's
Speaker 2: you know, emotional strain and personal strain like that towards
Speaker 2: the end, where there's gonna be some shit that happens. Fine,
Speaker 2: but for the most part, on the whole, like we
Speaker 2: all had the time of our lives. And I just
Speaker 2: felt so passionately about changing that narrative publicly because the
Speaker 2: only thing that really made me sad about when people
Speaker 2: talked about the show. Criticize it all you want the storylines,
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, go for it, but the drama was
Speaker 2: bullsh and we were all obsessed with each other. We're
Speaker 2: all still great friends and so and you know how
Speaker 2: many times have like half the cast of Glee been
Speaker 2: at your house, Like we travel in groups, and we
Speaker 2: were totally come out over when we were still shooting
Speaker 2: the show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so it's exactly that thing. It's like family,
Speaker 1: you said it perfectly. As you work out your ship,
Speaker 1: which is inevitable because we're all a bunch of human
Speaker 1: beings in spaces together.
Speaker 2: It's messy, like being.
Speaker 1: A human as complicated. You can work it out in
Speaker 1: your family, but the minute anyone outside your family talks
Speaker 1: about a family member, you're like, don't you dear? And
Speaker 1: we absolutely had that, And I think that's also really special.
Speaker 1: I think when you love people enough not because you
Speaker 1: have to, not because you're related, but because you are
Speaker 1: privileged enough to go on a journey together, and you
Speaker 1: love them enough to work through the hard stuff and
Speaker 1: come out the other end better and you get to
Speaker 1: relish in your joy.
Speaker 2: Like what is cooler than that, especially because and you know,
Speaker 2: it's such a specific.
Speaker 1: Experience and rare and weird.
Speaker 2: All of those things like understatement like it is, it's
Speaker 2: so weird, and to be able to always have those
Speaker 2: people who know exactly what it felt like at that
Speaker 2: exact moment in your life is invaluable and if you
Speaker 2: can do whatever you can to hold on to those relationships.
Speaker 2: I think it's just it's so important because it's foundational
Speaker 2: to who we are and that informs anything we do
Speaker 2: afterwards as people or professionally. Even getting to interview people
Speaker 2: through the podcast, people who came on as guest stars
Speaker 2: or were on for you know, one episode or two episodes.
Speaker 2: We all still feel that deep connection with each other.
Speaker 2: And I don't know if that's normal. And I don't
Speaker 2: know if that's just because the type of show it
Speaker 2: was or the way it impacted people externally, but there
Speaker 2: is a weird Glee bond that we all have.
Speaker 1: Do you have it too?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I think it's something to really be proud
Speaker 2: of because we all fought for it. Probably didn't even
Speaker 2: realize we were. But again going back to how wonderful
Speaker 2: crews are, it was they were a real time check
Speaker 2: on how we were doing as friends and as co
Speaker 2: workers because they would say all the time that the
Speaker 2: way you all get along is not normal, and that's
Speaker 2: they're like Penny, one of the assistant camera operators, I
Speaker 2: remember her saying to us, She's like I think part
Speaker 2: of the magic of watching you guys on the show
Speaker 2: is that your real life chemistry is coming through. And
Speaker 2: after she said that and we all heard that, there
Speaker 2: was no way to not see that, and now rewatching
Speaker 2: it too, it's.
Speaker 1: Like, oh, yeah, yeah, do you see that?
Speaker 2: Oh, our real life chemistry is filling in a lot
Speaker 2: of holes. Yeah, where our reactions to people performing just
Speaker 2: the way, you know, the little glances to each other.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I know that's real or if that's acting,
Speaker 2: but because you can't tell, I think that's sort of
Speaker 2: you know. And as the show goes on, the writers
Speaker 2: start writing for us as real people.
Speaker 1: Well, and everything gets blurry.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's very blurry. We're in season foury now, and
Speaker 2: it's very blurry. Santana has just turned into Naya and
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is.
Speaker 1: Really what is happening?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think you know, it's all we all
Speaker 2: were obsessed with each other, and I think that helped
Speaker 2: the success of the show as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors that I
Speaker 1: really enjoy and I think you will too. Do you
Speaker 1: find I'm curious about this because you know different, it
Speaker 1: wasn't on a global stage, but you know, me and
Speaker 1: some of my loved ones lost someone years ago that
Speaker 1: we loved with our entire beings, and it's a really
Speaker 1: hard thing, I think, to navigate young life loss. And
Speaker 1: one of the things I find, you know, almost a
Speaker 1: decade out of it, is I love talking about my
Speaker 1: friend who passed away. I love when people talk about
Speaker 1: him my friends, and I love when people bring up
Speaker 1: his name, like because we still carry him now that
Speaker 1: you have Not that it ever gets easier, but I
Speaker 1: do think distance allows you to be more capable of carrying,
Speaker 1: you know, big emotional weights, Like you're talking about this
Speaker 1: thing in season four and I watch you light up
Speaker 1: when you're like, oh, Santana, just is Nya Like you're laughing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: are you able to like really enjoy getting to be
Speaker 1: with a piece of your friend now?
Speaker 2: And it feels like such a gift that we get
Speaker 2: six seasons of Corey and Naya being so talented. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I one of them most. I mean, it's not unexpected,
Speaker 2: but it was, you know, it's not planned for. Almost
Speaker 2: every guest we've had on who worked on the show
Speaker 2: has some personal story about how wonderful Corey was to them,
Speaker 2: where it was like their specific interaction with Corey almost
Speaker 2: every single person, and we had no idea. When new
Speaker 2: people would come onto the show, he'd take them out
Speaker 2: to dinner and talk to them, like doing these things
Speaker 2: as a leader, because on the show he was a leader,
Speaker 2: but in real life I don't even think we realized
Speaker 2: what he was really doing to make people feel comfortable
Speaker 2: that were in front of the camera and behind the camera.
Speaker 2: Our tour manager just told us how, because he would
Speaker 2: be so good with fans, he would always be late
Speaker 2: to the venue to do the show, and so she
Speaker 2: started getting coffee with him before call time to make
Speaker 2: sure he didn't get caught up in the fan stuff,
Speaker 2: and then for years after that continued to get coffy
Speaker 2: with him back, you know, when we were back in
Speaker 2: LA and had this like wonderful special thing with him,
Speaker 2: and hearing those stories is exactly what you just said. Like, obviously,
Speaker 2: you know, with loss, it's hard, it's heavy, it's often
Speaker 2: very challenging to even put into words, how all complicated,
Speaker 2: how complicated that is. But hearing these wonderful positive experiences
Speaker 2: about people you love and are obsessed with it has
Speaker 2: just been such a gift. Yeah, and seeing Nia just
Speaker 2: be so good and we used to get mad that
Speaker 2: they used to write the characters so similarly to how
Speaker 2: we were in real life. But selfishly, now I'm very
Speaker 2: thankful for it because I don't know what happened in
Speaker 2: the past couple episodes where I am now in this rewatch,
Speaker 2: But it's just it's I don't think there's any option
Speaker 2: in the character, and it just reminds me of all
Speaker 2: these wonderful It reminds you too, like I could send
Speaker 2: you clips You're like, oh, yeah, I've seen NIA have
Speaker 2: that conversation with our friends. Wow, And yeah. It just
Speaker 2: it feels like a gift and I love it and
Speaker 2: I love talking about it because it does feel like
Speaker 2: something we can share. And it feels like I the
Speaker 2: biggest fans of both of them and their abilities and
Speaker 2: how they were as human beings and as friends, and
Speaker 2: so anytime I can talk about them and spread that
Speaker 2: because we do all get that, we get to carry
Speaker 2: that and tell people about it, and so it feels
Speaker 2: like a privilege to be able to do that.
Speaker 1: I love that. That's really beautiful. It makes me want
Speaker 1: to sob, but like in such a good way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a weird, always a weird set of emotions.
Speaker 2: There's I mean, there's been some episodes where we've watched
Speaker 2: Oh my god, there's an episode a couple months ago.
Speaker 2: I literally started bawling, and you took a picture of
Speaker 2: myself and sent it to I and Marco, who you know,
Speaker 2: was here too. He just had to be in town.
Speaker 2: He was watching too to look over and he's like
Speaker 2: hiding his face in a pillow because they did flashbacks
Speaker 2: of Corey and Naya to like the first few episodes
Speaker 2: of Glee, and it was just like, oh, no, was
Speaker 2: not prepared for this. So you know, it is tough,
Speaker 2: but it's it's life. We were all so young, and
Speaker 2: learning how to grieve personally is horrible and hard, and
Speaker 2: learning how to do it publicly is even harder and weirder.
Speaker 2: But again, it's one of those universal experiences, and it's
Speaker 2: one of those experiences that we now have a vast
Speaker 2: network of friends to lean on, yeah, for those things,
Speaker 2: because we were all that close with each other. Wow,
Speaker 2: and you and like you've experienced that, and you also
Speaker 2: know our friends who we lost, and so it becas
Speaker 2: I'm just this extra level of empathy and understanding of
Speaker 2: the human experience and condition that we already share, and
Speaker 2: it's nice to know that you can sort of, you know, unfortunately,
Speaker 2: empathize in those ways with people, Like, Yeah, it's.
Speaker 1: Like a club no one asks to be in, but
Speaker 1: thank god you have people in it with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I would say that is true for loss, that's
Speaker 1: true for divorce. That's true, like no matter what anybody
Speaker 1: thinks it is, they have no idea. But thank god
Speaker 1: when you've got people who who have all the ideas
Speaker 1: because they're in the trenches.
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, and you never know. It's also one
Speaker 2: of those things that you never know who's going to
Speaker 2: be able to I don't like be the person to
Speaker 2: unlock something to understanding, Like my when Corey died, my
Speaker 2: brother randomly said something to me about like grief where
Speaker 2: it's like he's like, just don't worry about how you're feeling.
Speaker 2: He's like, it may hit you today, it may hit
Speaker 2: you in three years. He's like, it doesn't happen on
Speaker 2: a schedule. He's like, so just allow yourself to feel
Speaker 2: however you're feeling right now, and don't judge yourself for it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And I never expected him to like came through this
Speaker 2: piece of Wisdom's like who is this? And I have
Speaker 2: gone back to that so many times and it's so
Speaker 2: useful and you just never know, and it's like like damn, yeah,
Speaker 2: this is the club I did not want to be
Speaker 2: a part of. But you know, I guess luckily for
Speaker 2: us there are people who are part of that club
Speaker 2: and can help guide us through it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I had this really surreal experience last summer
Speaker 1: when like a group of us was leaning on each
Speaker 1: other in this like you know, tragic moment of dissolution,
Speaker 1: like four friends all going through divorce at the same time,
Speaker 1: and it's like really hard when you hit the point
Speaker 1: where you're like, oh, today's the day I'm gonna admit that,
Speaker 1: like the thing in front of me is dead, like
Speaker 1: it's a kart guss, Like I can't keep trying to
Speaker 1: revive it. And that was happening at the same time
Speaker 1: that two of our other best friends were pregnant with
Speaker 1: their first babies, and there were days where we'd be like, whoa,
Speaker 1: let's get the divorce girl club and the first time
Speaker 1: mom club together to sort of be like what's happening
Speaker 1: on your island, right, you know, And it's like it's
Speaker 1: a trip. But you need people in your life that
Speaker 1: are going through the same thing that you're going through.
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean any of your other wonderful friends
Speaker 1: aren't capable of being there for you. It means you
Speaker 1: need a person who can go ah you two, whether
Speaker 1: it's good, bad, ugly, whatever. And I think, like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I think grief is like that on obviously
Speaker 1: one of the harder sides. I think when we talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, as you mentioned earlier, like some of the
Speaker 1: ways we bonded over our first shows, it's really fucking
Speaker 1: rare and weird to have your first show turn into
Speaker 1: like a hit show, and it was so you know,
Speaker 1: me and my castmates are like, man, we went through
Speaker 1: this thing together that was so wild. But it was
Speaker 1: also so helpful for me when we became friends to
Speaker 1: be like, how are you guys doing this part? How
Speaker 1: are you navigating this? Like how are you dealing with
Speaker 1: you know, the fact that some tabloid had their story
Speaker 1: meeting on a Tuesday and has like made up something
Speaker 1: about your life, Like it's crazy, but it is this
Speaker 1: really special thing, and so I'm going to ask you this.
Speaker 1: Even though sometimes it used to drive me crazy. When
Speaker 1: people ask this. Interestingly, the silver lining of our podcast
Speaker 1: is that it sort of changed my answer now when
Speaker 1: people are like, would you ever want to take a
Speaker 1: trip back like to Tree Hill as an actor? Now,
Speaker 1: I'm like, honestly, maybe I would love to see Brook
Speaker 1: Davis like running the town or something that could be cool.
Speaker 1: Like from this vantage point now that you guys have
Speaker 1: you know, reclaimed it, you own it. You're having such
Speaker 1: a good time with and that's what you really missed.
Speaker 1: Are you ever like i'd go back, like I could
Speaker 1: be the choir director now, like, or does it feel
Speaker 1: like it's done for you?
Speaker 2: Oh, that's complicated, That's okay.
Speaker 1: By the way, you can just say that if you
Speaker 1: don't want to expand on it.
Speaker 2: I think if we didn't think too deeply about it
Speaker 2: in terms of how it would work, but.
Speaker 1: Just don't go there that'll make you crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, time of my life. I think we would
Speaker 2: all have such a great time. I think all the
Speaker 2: crew would come back like I think it would be
Speaker 2: because they're also in Ryan Murphy world. I think it
Speaker 2: would be a great time. And absolutely, yeah, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 1: And now for our sponsors, I also not that this
Speaker 1: relates to what you're saying. But I love that we're
Speaker 1: so far over time. I'm a third of the way
Speaker 1: through my questions for you. It's fine. I knew this
Speaker 1: was going to happen, so I'm going to horseshoe us
Speaker 1: around to the captivism part. Because you have been doing
Speaker 1: so much good work for so long. This year you
Speaker 1: won the Human Rights Campaign Visibility Award this year.
Speaker 2: How silly, that's wild.
Speaker 1: No, it's not silly. It's beautiful. And I get as
Speaker 1: a person who deals with how much or how little
Speaker 1: of your life to share, not necessarily knowing how to
Speaker 1: do it. I have had the good fortune of knowing Austin.
Speaker 1: I mean, since you guys have been together, but you
Speaker 1: didn't really publicly address your relationship until twenty eighteen. I
Speaker 1: think people were all they all got it. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, Tobin and Press finally confirmed they've been together
Speaker 1: for eight years, in the whole world was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we know, duh. But it's complicated, I think to figure out,
Speaker 1: like are you going to let people in or not?
Speaker 1: I find that the only reason I ever have is
Speaker 1: because it's been sort of done for me, and then like,
Speaker 1: what am I going to do. I'm a human being.
Speaker 1: I want to go out and like be in the world. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what how do you decide? You know? I know you
Speaker 1: said when you were wanting to be the weather man
Speaker 1: in Tornado Alley, you were like a closeted little gay kid.
Speaker 1: But like, how do you decide when you want to
Speaker 1: do this? How How did Ariana Grande fit into the picture?
Speaker 1: Like how do you how do you say, now's my
Speaker 1: moment to go out and be visible, as the HRC
Speaker 1: Award says, in the world.
Speaker 2: To your point, I wanted to just It got to
Speaker 2: the point where I wanted to just live my life
Speaker 2: and if I was seen in public, not have to
Speaker 2: explain anything. Yeah, but I was in a relationship and
Speaker 2: so for me it was about I felt beyond ready.
Speaker 2: You know, It's like I we can do this because
Speaker 2: I would like to be able to like talk about you.
Speaker 2: I would like to be able to just yeah, be
Speaker 2: out at a bar or a club and kiss you
Speaker 2: and not have to worry about if anybody's watching and whatever.
Speaker 2: And so one day I was just like, are you
Speaker 2: cool with this? Like if I post something or say something,
Speaker 2: and he was like, I don't give it. I'm like
Speaker 2: all right, it's time. Well I didn't and I didn't
Speaker 2: do it. Then there wasn't like a conscious It was
Speaker 2: sort of let me just I just wanted to know
Speaker 2: that if something did happen, if it did come up,
Speaker 2: because we so we met when we worked on a
Speaker 2: mini series together and he impressed. For that show, he
Speaker 2: got asked a really sort of tasteless question by someone
Speaker 2: about like, so like who was hooking up with who
Speaker 2: like trying to like dig because there was a lot
Speaker 2: of these young a lot of the closeted people on
Speaker 2: the show, and so like, you're only asking that question
Speaker 2: if you're trying to sort.
Speaker 1: Of out Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so in that moment, I knew I was going
Speaker 2: to have a an interview with that guy the next
Speaker 2: day or something, and so I talked with my manager
Speaker 2: and my agent. It was like, look, this may come up.
Speaker 2: What do you think I should do? And they were like,
Speaker 2: you say whatever you want. We would never tell you
Speaker 2: not to say something.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh god, this is on me, tell
Speaker 1: me what to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But it made me face it for the first
Speaker 2: time because I think growing up, I just assumed that
Speaker 2: would never happen. There would never be an option. I
Speaker 2: would always be closeted, and I somehow, I think, romanticized
Speaker 2: it or fetishized it in a way where I was
Speaker 2: okay with it.
Speaker 1: You find a coping mechanism wherever you find.
Speaker 2: It, yes, And I think that's and I didn't realize
Speaker 2: it was a coping mechanism until one of the producers
Speaker 2: of Glee at some point was like, I think this
Speaker 2: is what you're doing. I was like, oh, no, you're
Speaker 2: completely right. And having been on such a joyous show
Speaker 2: about queer expression and acceptance, it was also weird that
Speaker 2: I never did it. But I think I had seen
Speaker 2: how Chris Kolfer was treated and was scared of that.
Speaker 2: I sort of got to live my life and in
Speaker 2: private and I had a boyfriend and it was great
Speaker 2: and nobody knew and you know, so I was taking
Speaker 2: advantage of I was playing a straight character. Nobody even
Speaker 2: questioned it. He didn't really have a choice, and I
Speaker 2: got away with it. And I think at some point,
Speaker 2: being in my mid to late twenties, I was like,
Speaker 2: get like, what am I doing? Yeah, I need to
Speaker 2: be able to live my life and I don't care,
Speaker 2: and I don't I'm not worried if it's going to
Speaker 2: take away from work opportunities, and if it is, who cares,
Speaker 2: Like I don't, I'm like, okay, yeah, so something just
Speaker 2: I think maybe having that success young it made me
Speaker 2: feel I know this probably sounds so stupid, but it
Speaker 2: made me feel more secure in myself in a way
Speaker 2: of being like, well, I don't need you to give
Speaker 2: me a job. Then I've had the success, and so
Speaker 2: I'm not worried about it taking away opportunities. Because that
Speaker 2: was I think really the only reason why I didn't
Speaker 2: say anything sooner. But then Ariana Ground I put out
Speaker 2: a new song and I just made a joke that
Speaker 2: wasn't even like my intention. I didn't think people were
Speaker 2: going to infer that from that tweet. Wow, All I
Speaker 2: said was that the song was gayer than me, you know,
Speaker 2: like i'd be a normal joke we'd make, like I
Speaker 2: just I thought it was funny.
Speaker 1: But again, that's that's you being a whole person, not
Speaker 1: the sort of small percentage that the world precedes you as,
Speaker 1: which is what happens when you live a public life.
Speaker 1: Like it was so weird for me finally leaving something
Speaker 1: that like just proved to really not be good for
Speaker 1: me and like finding this really unexpected joy and then
Speaker 1: having having it be treated like fodder, where I was
Speaker 1: also like, have you guys like not been paying attention?
Speaker 1: I literally always said I would never. I don't play
Speaker 1: characters I don't represent, Like, how many women have you
Speaker 1: seen me hook up with? Are on camera? Like, by
Speaker 1: the way, Ryan Murphy's first ever TV show was my
Speaker 1: first arc on TV in Kate Morrow was my girlfriend.
Speaker 2: Like, Hello, I mean there's something about your house.
Speaker 1: There's something gay about my house, something deeply bisexual about.
Speaker 2: Something deeply bisexual about your house. I don't know what
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 1: Who knows? But yeah, it was so funny to me.
Speaker 1: But I also had to learn similarly to what you're saying,
Speaker 1: Like I almost had it in reverse where and obviously
Speaker 1: in the twenty years I've been like in these sort
Speaker 1: of activist spaces, I've had to learn a lot about
Speaker 1: all the internalized fill in the blanks misogyny, homophobia, whatever.
Speaker 1: And for me, I understand now why in my twenties,
Speaker 1: some elder gays in my life who I deeply respect,
Speaker 1: in a door, we're like, oh, honey, you're a girl,
Speaker 1: and like you can be a little fluid but girls
Speaker 1: are just more experimental, like you're not really by And
Speaker 1: I got this whole thing about like, you know, great
Speaker 1: that you've been going to the Pride marches since you
Speaker 1: were six, and we love you as an ally, but
Speaker 1: like also the community's under enough threat and like you're
Speaker 1: a very privileged, privileged like white girl on TV. You
Speaker 1: don't really need to take up space here. And I
Speaker 1: was like, got it. Allyship is my jam, And eventually
Speaker 1: I was like I kind of think that, Like you know,
Speaker 1: when people say, if there's like smoke, there's fire, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I sort of think that, Like this many experiences and
Speaker 1: very real feelings in my own body tells me more
Speaker 1: about who I am than like anybody else. But you know,
Speaker 1: the running joke for many years being like as soon
Speaker 1: as Dua Alipa asks me how to date, like I'm out,
Speaker 1: I was like, turns out not not my type. I
Speaker 1: have a very different type. And she's great.
Speaker 2: I love the two of you. Seeing you two together
Speaker 2: makes me so happy. Also, she's the I.
Speaker 1: Mean, the best person I know. I mean, she's truly
Speaker 1: the best person I know. And when I want to
Speaker 1: like snap and I can feel though like Brooke Davis
Speaker 1: and me wanting to be outlandish. She reminds me to
Speaker 1: be like soft and gentle and kind and to take
Speaker 1: the high road. Like everyone thinks I'm the Michelle Obama
Speaker 1: and like she's the like wild one, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: absolutely not. I'm out of my fucking mind. And she's
Speaker 1: like a sweet teddy bear. She just has tattoos. And
Speaker 1: people are very prejudicial with stereotypes.
Speaker 2: Like the first time you introduced you introduced me to her,
Speaker 2: you were I've never seen you so giddy ever, and
Speaker 2: like just the biggest seating grin on your face, like that.
Speaker 1: It feels really nice to be happy.
Speaker 2: Yes, And you were just like telling me about things,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I could not be happier for
Speaker 2: you both.
Speaker 1: Well, we're both obsessed with you.
Speaker 2: I I mean, anytime I see you guys, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I got to leave my friends over here, friends by.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like doing all the things that we get
Speaker 1: to do together in the world. Like it's really fun
Speaker 1: for me when I see some of my favorite people,
Speaker 1: not just you know, at a house party or friendsgiving,
Speaker 1: but like at the White House out there doing good work,
Speaker 1: and like it feels nice to be in a moment,
Speaker 1: where as you said you could just be yourself. I
Speaker 1: feel like I get to be more myself. Everyone I
Speaker 1: know who really finds joy, no matter how long it takes,
Speaker 1: who finally learns to choose themselves in their own happiness.
Speaker 1: Like what a gift because you teach people by being.
Speaker 1: And so I guess like, when we look at this
Speaker 1: whole landscape, you know things we're revisiting, healing, we're doing reclaiming,
Speaker 1: we're doing all the joy we've got, like being loved,
Speaker 1: being embodied, all the things like as you look out,
Speaker 1: obviously you and I are working on the election, we
Speaker 1: know that, but when you look at the year ahead
Speaker 1: of what feels like you're work in progress.
Speaker 2: Oh god, okay, beyond the election.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's response oon, what about what about the what about?
Speaker 1: What's next?
Speaker 2: What's next? Is I have such a good group of
Speaker 2: creative friends and people around me that I love and respect,
Speaker 2: and we have so many ideas of things we want
Speaker 2: to do and get made, and some of them we
Speaker 2: think will help make the world a better place. And
Speaker 2: so it's about actually following through on some of those
Speaker 2: thing yeah, and not just talking about them in theory
Speaker 2: and actually let's figure out how to do this, and
Speaker 2: I think that would be just it's so fun because
Speaker 2: also just getting to put people together almost producing the situations.
Speaker 2: I want this person to work with this person and
Speaker 2: like that's figure out how that's going to work. And
Speaker 2: I just want to do a lot of that and
Speaker 2: figure out how to make these sort of dreams and
Speaker 2: wishes actually happened.
Speaker 1: Me too, Count me in. I'm ready to go signing
Speaker 1: up all the things.
Speaker 2: Okay, great, cool, So we have a god we can
Speaker 2: have this chat.
Speaker 1: Okay, great, can't wait to an once our next project
Speaker 1: to the world. All Right, I love you, go, thank
Speaker 1: you so much.
Speaker 2: Ch I have a confession. I don't know if you
Speaker 2: remember this. I remember this the other day goes hockey
Speaker 2: with So you were having one of your parties and
Speaker 2: I brought my brother, which I had never done.
Speaker 1: Like friends giving party or Saint Patrick's Prey. No, it
Speaker 1: was which is random house.
Speaker 2: It was like one of the music.
Speaker 1: Living room show.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, okay, and it was a bigger one because
Speaker 2: they started off pretty small and then.
Speaker 1: They like, yeah, they started to grow.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Ed Sheeran was at your house and I was like,
Speaker 2: that's new. I were like walking in. I'm like, he's
Speaker 2: very famous. And my brother we were on the balcony
Speaker 2: upstairs and my brother, So what I thought happened was
Speaker 2: my brother put his beer on the banister, yeah, and
Speaker 2: then turned and knocked it down and it fell where
Speaker 2: Ed Sheeran was standing not twenty seconds before.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: But I realized I blamed my brother. I was like,
Speaker 2: my brother, I bring my brother one time to your
Speaker 2: house and he almost kills like the biggest artists in
Speaker 2: the world. But I realized it was me.
Speaker 1: It was you.
Speaker 2: He put the beer stupidly on the banister.
Speaker 1: So there's that's not a great call.
Speaker 2: Fine, And then I turned and knocked it over and
Speaker 2: it went like flipping down to the bottom and splattered.
Speaker 2: And I just remember looking over because I had looked
Speaker 2: down right before, and Ed Sheeran was right there. And
Speaker 2: then you come running out and you look up and
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, I'm so sorry, Like
Speaker 2: in the middle of your party, I almost just kill
Speaker 2: Ed sheer List.
Speaker 1: Nobody needed stitches, and I'm I'm very obsessive compulsive, so
Speaker 1: I have like a dust bin and a little thing
Speaker 1: you did.
Speaker 2: You were out there in seconds with the dust I've
Speaker 2: got them all over the place. Yeah, it was very impressive,
Speaker 2: but I felt horrified. I just need to get that
Speaker 2: off my chest.
Speaker 1: Okay, do you want to publicly apologize to Ed Cheerin
Speaker 1: or do we feel like we've done it.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, cheer we never even met. I just almost
Speaker 2: severely injured him.
Speaker 1: Clearly he needs to join you for an episode of
Speaker 1: the podcast.
Speaker 2: Or maybe.
Speaker 1: Massive Glee fan. Well, okay, hey, Internet, help us figure
Speaker 1: it out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I need to personally apologize. I don't even
Speaker 2: think he I don't know if he realized how close
Speaker 2: he was to a beer bottle smashing on his head
Speaker 2: from a second.
Speaker 1: Story touched by an angel.
Speaker 2: I guess he really moved just in time. I will
Speaker 2: never get over it. Anyway, I feel much better at
Speaker 2: having it because I was literally giving my brother the
Speaker 2: other day, like, remember when I brought you to Soap's
Speaker 2: house and you almost kill that cheer And he's like,
Speaker 2: is that right? He's like, you did that and then
Speaker 2: we can reconstruct it. I was like, oh, yeah, that
Speaker 2: was me.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Well look at this. That's what they
Speaker 1: call growth, just like owning your mistakes. Moving on right,
Speaker 1: my badad. We're glad you're still with us.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Please keep making beautiful songs with that beautiful soldiery voice.
Speaker 1: New music soon, please, please Thank you for coming. Go
Speaker 1: do your other job.
Speaker 2: I love you, Okay, j and I said hi bye everyone,