1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Chuck and I'm Josh and we're the host 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: of Stuff You should know the podcast. That's right, And 3 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: if you're into understanding cool and unusual and seemingly ordinary 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: and even boring things that are made interesting, you should 5 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: check us out. Please and thank you. We're on iTunes, Spotify, 6 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 1: Google Play Music, anywhere you get podcasts. Welcome to Stuff 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You. From how stup works dot com. Hello, 8 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: And Caroline, I gotta be honest with you. I experienced 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: some stuff Mom Never told you. Interview Envy last week 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: when you got to talk to Anne Marie Slaughter. Yeah, 12 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: Anne Marie Slaughter is amazing. Um. I tend to not 13 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: be very intimidated by celebrities, by politicians by oh you're Elizabeth, 14 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: We're you know Elizabeth because we hang out all the time. Yeah, 15 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: that's the secret there. Um. But around Amory Slaughter, I 16 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: clammed up and became a total stuttering fool. I felt 17 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: like I felt like I blew it up in my mind. 18 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure. Um, But she is an author, she's a 19 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: former diplomat. She worked under Hillary Clinton in the State Department. Um, 20 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: she has an incredible background as a leader, and now 21 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: she is the CEO of the New America think tank, 22 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: which is a nonpartisan organization that's basically seeking to change 23 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: the world. No big deal. Um, But I got to 24 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: the Office of New America in New York after the 25 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: you and I had gone to the United State of 26 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: Women's Summit in Washington, d C. Where a Marie Slaughter 27 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: spoke on a panel about caregiving with uh Sminty all 28 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: Star fave I Gin Poo. She of support the caregivers 29 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: efforts in this country and abroad. And uh Amory Slaughter 30 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: swept into the office and it's again blewn up in 31 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: my head and I just saw like Disney birds floating 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,119 Speaker 1: around her because I have such great admiration for this woman. Yeah, 33 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: I love how these are the kinds of stuff I've 34 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: never told you. Celebrities we have. I mean, obviously there's Beyonce, 35 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: and then we also have like foreign policy wonks like 36 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: Ann Marie Slaughter and she I'm so glad that you 37 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: got to talk to her because um, she, as she 38 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: says in her interview, um is a foreign policy expert, 39 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: not a gender expert. But it just so happens that 40 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: she went viral in with this Atlantic magazine article that 41 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff I've never told you listeners may 42 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: have read or have heard about, headlined why women still 43 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: can't have it all? And it really broke the internet 44 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: before Kim Kardashian came around and Marie Slaughter, my friends, 45 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: broke the Internet. I feel like that is such a 46 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: much more worthy breaker of the Internet. Uh, not to 47 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,239 Speaker 1: get not to get all pitting women against each other. 48 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: We're not here to do that well, And that's something 49 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: Anne Marie Slaughter knows well. The whole media pitting women 50 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: against women. Yeah, because if you aren't familiar with Slaughter's 51 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: work as a diplomat, or if you're not familiar with 52 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: her work in the Atlantic, she's also written in so 53 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: many other places. She's written several forwards for several fantastic books. Um, yeah, 54 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: you might know her simply from the media and the 55 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: blogosphere pitting her against Cheryl Sandberg. I mean literally, when 56 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: you google the two women's names together, the suggested search 57 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: that pops up is Anne Marie Slaughter versus Cheryl Sandberg. 58 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,119 Speaker 1: And that seems that seems silly. Why are two high 59 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: powered women we've never seen this before, two high powered 60 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: women being pitted against each other. And then really not um, 61 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: but basically, uh, Anne Marie Slaughter's philosophies. I keep saying 62 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: her full name because she is a celebrity to me, Uh, 63 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: not such a strong name, to a strong, wonderful name. Um. 64 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: Her philosophies have definitely evolved over time, as she her 65 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: philosophies about women in the workplace, about caregiving, gender roles, 66 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: these things have evolved, and uh, they don't put her 67 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: in line with Cheryl Sandberg's philosophy of leaning in. But 68 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: of course the media is so reductionist. So in addition 69 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: to pitting Amory Slaughter versus Cheryl Sandberg, it was then 70 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: framed as oh, this is you know, lean in versus 71 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: lean out, which it's not at all, And it does 72 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: a disservice to a lot of the complexity and nuance 73 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: that Slaughter has proposed in a lot of her writing. Um. 74 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: And as a millennial feminist, listening to the conversation you 75 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: had with her, I also I found it really instructive 76 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: to hear the experience of a woman who was blazing 77 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: through academia all the way to you know, being the 78 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: dean of Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International 79 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: Affairs and previously being at Harvard Law School. This woman 80 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: at the top of her game, Um, dealing with similar 81 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: workplace issues that we still talk about, but approaching them 82 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: in with a different feminist philosophy, which I don't want 83 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: to get into because I don't want to spoil what 84 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: she's going to talk about. UM, but I think it's 85 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: easy for us to sometimes forget how things were not 86 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: so long ago. Yeah, and the different responses that women 87 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: of different generations and back hounds have had to both 88 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: lean in and to Slaughter's own philosophies, because I mean, 89 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: at their core, their philosophies are not that different. It's 90 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: helping women advance, getting women into those high paying jobs, 91 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: or just getting women into the workplace in general. But 92 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: whereas Cheryl Sandberg is arguing that women need to do 93 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: the leaning in, they need to take it upon themselves 94 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: to act in certain ways and and basically behave in 95 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: certain ways and take certain actions in the workplace, uh, 96 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: Slaughter's philosophy falls more along the lines of yeah, but 97 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: also the whole system is essentially broken. Yeah, we've got 98 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: to change the workplace, and especially with the work she's 99 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: doing now changing our entire approach to the caregiving economy, 100 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: whether that's childcare or elder care. And one thing that 101 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: jumped out to me that she said in talking about 102 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: um just her the nutshell of her approach to advancing 103 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: women in gender equality in the workplace, because this isn't 104 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: just about women, this is about men too. Is allowing 105 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: people to be ambitious, but also emphasize that there's a 106 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: choice of the direction that you go with that ambition. 107 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: So should we should we hear from Anne Marie Slaughter 108 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: now now that we should, we should we have her 109 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: introduce herself. Absolutely, no one does it better. It's true, 110 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: um An Marie Slaughter. I am the president and CEO 111 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: of New America, and I'm a Meredith Professor of Princeton University. 112 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: And I say that because I was an academic for 113 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: twenty two years as a law professor and a dean 114 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: of a foreigner policy school. I now run New America, 115 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: which is a linkedic and what we call a civic enterprise, 116 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: which means essentially an organization that tries to make the 117 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: world a better place by thinking up new solutions from 118 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: the top down and by finding people who are creating 119 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: good solutions from the bottom. So, Caroline, we are going 120 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: to hear so much more about those proposed solutions and 121 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: the people involved in this uh for the next half 122 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: hour or so. But before we get into all of 123 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: the work that she's doing and all the work that 124 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: needs to be done for caregivers. UM, let's get the 125 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: Ryl Sandberg issue, maybe not out of the way, but 126 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: for people who might be curious about it. As we were, Um, 127 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: you asked her how she felt about UM, sort of 128 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: the media narrative around that, right, Yeah, I asked her 129 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: about Yes, not only the media narrative, but just also 130 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: too if she could explain further the differences between her 131 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: approach and Sandberg's approach to this workplace equality issue. Why 132 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 1: didn't the show Can't Have It All? Went went up 133 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: online on the Atlantic website on the landsday night in 134 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: June plenty. Weel and I was in Scotland and with 135 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 1: my family trying to do work and vacation the same time. 136 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: I arrived back on Friday two days later, and there 137 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: I am on the front page in the New York Times, 138 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 1: Cheryl Sandberg versus me and of course that was the 139 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: resistantly and it defined that in the debate, even though 140 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: I think both Cheryl and I tried very hard not defeated. 141 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: So she never wanted to be on any kind of 142 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: panel with me. She didn't ever want to be seen, 143 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: you know, debating me, even though that's what the media wanted. Uh. 144 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: And I've come out of a culture of academic debate, 145 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: so I like debating, but I don't worry about it. 146 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: But I think in retrospection, I've been very smart to 147 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: do that as don't feed that. That's not wherever we 148 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: want to go. We don't want cat fights. Um. And 149 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: I did in that original article say that in her 150 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: talk at Barner, which gave drives the lean in that 151 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: I thought there was a note of approached that it 152 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: was essentially saying, if you have to lean in, and 153 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: I was saying, hey, WHOA, I have leaned in harder 154 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: than anybody. And I'm not as hard as anybody. I know, 155 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: I'm not harder, but as hard, and yet sometimes life happens. 156 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: And I don't think lean in means you sacrifice your 157 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: child for your job, if that's the way you see 158 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: that choice. And I certainly at that point thought this 159 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: is just a job. Other people can be director of 160 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: policy planting. No one else can be my teenager's parroc. 161 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 1: No one else wants to be my teenager part, even 162 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: if I could convince them. And he's making choices that 163 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 1: could define the rest of his life. So what kind 164 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: of person am I? Not just what kind of parent, 165 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: but what kind of person am I? Who puts my 166 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: ambition ahead of my child in that setting? That's not 167 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: the person I want to be. UM. But I then 168 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: you know, I've talked to lots of people. I've talked 169 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: to Cheryl. If you look at her book and my book, 170 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: there's far more overlap than than contention. We both want 171 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: women to take a seat at the table and lean 172 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: in and raise their hand and speak out and be recognized. 173 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: We both want that absolutely, and we both want much 174 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: better policies for supporting working family. UM. Where we differ 175 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: is partly just on emphasis. I think that because powerful, 176 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: wealthy women have dominated this debate, we have focused and 177 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: I include myself not nearly as wealthy, but still a 178 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: lot of standards of the nation. UM, we focus on 179 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: our issues, That's the point. In the Atlantic part. We 180 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: focus on our barriers, and now what I want to 181 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: say is I want to lend my voice and my 182 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: thinking too to a different frame, because we're not going 183 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 1: to get to general quality unless we address this whole spectrum. 184 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: So it's emphasis. I think it is also um, you know, 185 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: she she isn't the head of a major corporation, and 186 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: I think it is harder for major corporations to push 187 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: for policies that will cost business money. And I'm not. 188 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 1: I write a nonprofit, so I can say although it 189 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: costs monet no profit a lot to offer the policies 190 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: I offer, still I'm not. I'm not a bit of 191 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: billion dollar corporation. And so so I think in terms 192 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: of we agree more than we disagree. If we disagree, 193 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: it's going to be in the details. But mostly it's 194 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: just a difference of emphasis. And in that sense, I 195 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: think we're very complimentary because I want her out there 196 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: pushing women the way she's pushing women. But I want 197 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: to be able to say to all those women, uh 198 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: who find themselves and increasingly men who find themselves saying 199 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,839 Speaker 1: I'm ambitious, but I've got a choice here. I want 200 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: to say that those people, yet you know there are choices, 201 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: and it's not your fault and you can't always do 202 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: it and that's okay, That's what life is about, and 203 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: we need to be helping you navigate those choices rather 204 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: than telling you whether they don't exist, or just saying, well, 205 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: you should your career. And I don't mean to insinuate 206 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 1: that Cheryl Sandberg's insights are not valuable, that len in 207 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: cannot serve as a valuable tool. It absolutely can. But 208 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: I think that hearing from someone like Slaughter with her 209 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: own lived experiences, someone who has allowed her life experiences 210 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: to shape her evolution, is so important as well. Um. 211 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: But moving on from len In and philosophical differences, I 212 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: wanted to jumpstart the rest of our interview by asking 213 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: Slaughter what prompted her to write her last book, Unfinished Business. Well, Inn, 214 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: I had been working as the director of Policy planing 215 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: for Secretary Hillary Clinton, and I left that position after 216 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: two years to go home because I had a teenage 217 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: son who was having an incredibly rocky adolescence and was 218 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: making bad choices, and his father and I wanted to 219 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: both be there. I wrote an article on that experience 220 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: in twelve called Why Women Still Can't Have It All, 221 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: which temporarily broke the Internet. The great surprise to be 222 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: atlantic to me and I think too many other women 223 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: who thought this is not news. But it hit a 224 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: generational wave that led to a commitment to write a book, 225 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: which I hadn't intended to do. I'm a foreign policy expert, 226 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: I'm not a gender expert. But the reaction to that 227 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: article was so great, and I got hundreds and hundreds 228 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: of emails and letters from women and men telling me 229 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: their stories. So I agreed to write this book, thinking 230 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: I am going to lift up these voices. And then 231 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: along the way I started really thinking about what has 232 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: to change to get to gender equality. I'm an academic, 233 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:25,359 Speaker 1: I think bitch uh, and really concluded we need a 234 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: different path to finish the business of the women's movement. 235 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: So that's where unfinished business comes from. Okay, And so 236 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: what is that look like? Who's a longer path? Well, 237 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: it starts by saying we've we've done really well on 238 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: breaking down the barriers to let women be men in 239 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: the sense that I grew up wanting to be like 240 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: my father. My mother was a homemamber, my father was 241 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: a lawyer. It was clear if you were going to 242 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: be uh, somebody of value and worth. In the world 243 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: of the sixties, seventies, early eighties, you were going to 244 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: be like your father. So opening up the world of 245 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: competition to women, the world of careers, the world of 246 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: earning a living, the world of power and money. That's 247 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: what we've found, and we've still got a ways to go. Obviously, 248 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: I mean that lean in would be as important as 249 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: it is if we weren't still working on women to 250 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: be confident enough and to remove the barriers of discrimination 251 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: and subconscious bias to to get women too formerly male jobs. 252 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,479 Speaker 1: So that parts that's the first half of the revolution. 253 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: But along the way, we completely devalued traditional women's work, 254 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: the work of care, right, the work of not investing 255 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: in yourself but investing in others, whether those are your 256 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: children or your parents, or anyone who needs help and support. 257 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: You might have a ill or disabled family member, or 258 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,479 Speaker 1: you may have perfectly healthy family members. They need support 259 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: and so that work. By devaluing it, we left women 260 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: with two jobs and then with one. And when women 261 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: take time out to do the work of care, they 262 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: drop off. Not only the economically their work is not recognized, 263 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: but socially they are devalued. So the second part of 264 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: the revolution is to revalue the work of care and 265 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: to say, wait a minute, just because women traditionally did 266 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean it's not incredibly important, and then to 267 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: open it to men, so it's it's a complimentary You know, 268 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: we need competition and read when we need care, caregiving, 269 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: and we need both of those for both women and men. 270 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: So men have got to be not just along for 271 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: the ride as allies and helpers, which is the way 272 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: we think of it when we say women want to 273 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: be like men and then should help us. This is like, no, 274 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: I look at my sons and I expect them to 275 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 1: be need parents at some point in their marriages, if 276 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,239 Speaker 1: their wives or husbands who knows, uh need it, just 277 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: in a way that I would look at a daughter 278 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: that way. I expect men and women to be equally 279 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: responsible for family work. Well, so why is it in 280 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: our cultures are why why do you devalue care getting? 281 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: Is it just because it's traditionally a women's role, I 282 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: think so? Well, that and because it doesn't earn money, 283 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: so particularly in the United States, I think with the 284 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: world over, it's the valued as women's work and men 285 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: are in charge. Women have the children so I've been 286 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: expected to raise the children. Although if you go far 287 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: enough back in time, you actually get to villages where 288 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: men and women were hunter gatherers and they altar care 289 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,239 Speaker 1: of the children. That it's much more egalitarian world. But 290 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: now you're going to back thousands of appends of thousands 291 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: of years. Uh. In contemporary society around the world, it's 292 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: women's work that is a huge problem. I think in 293 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: in capitalist society, particularly in the United States, were and 294 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: particularly now. You know, over my lifetime we've become far 295 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: more money obsessed than we were in the seventies and eighties. 296 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: Hard for younger people to know that. But I just 297 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: watched my own profession of law. I used to be 298 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: a profession. It turned into a business. It turned into 299 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: a business where it was all about who could get 300 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: the most clients and earn the biggest fortunes. So in 301 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: that world, Uh, any work that doesn't earn money is 302 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: not gone. And care is both right um and also 303 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: it's uh it's less visible work. We're in a me 304 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: culture and we need Facebook. Can the work of cares 305 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: the work of investing in others? I mean, I say 306 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: it's not only a mother because a professor for many 307 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: years I took enormous fraud with what my students did, 308 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: and I used to often think, well, I don't care. 309 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: Maybe no one will ever read an article I wrote 310 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: after I die, or even in five years. But my 311 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: students will go on to do great things. And that's 312 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: an injured rent achievement. Where we're in a society, it 313 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: is much more about directly to them right exactly. Well, 314 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: so who right now is working to elevate carrigeters. What 315 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: role is your organization, Langue? I think the care movement 316 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: is gathering Stein. It's astounding. I couldn't have written this 317 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: book in because I didn't believe this. I really thought, 318 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: you know, my father was important as a lawyer, my 319 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: mother was important as an artist, but not as a homemaker. 320 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: Now I see it very differently, and over that time, 321 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: you know, they've an organizations working for a long time, 322 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 1: like Family Values at work with l A Bravo, the 323 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: whole paid family leave movement, that the work of Eigen 324 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: Poo and the National Domestic Workers Coalition, and now carrying 325 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: a Russian generations. So you're starting to see this gather Stein. 326 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: You're seeing Hillary Clinton make this a huge part of 327 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: her platform. I mean she is totally focused on how 328 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: we support caregiver. The Alham administration focusing on working families 329 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: and how we support working families. So it is it 330 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: is suddenly gathering steam. I think. Also, we're in the 331 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: midst of what you know Igenboo calls an elder boom 332 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: right where my generation is aging and you may not 333 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: have children, but you have to have parents. And your 334 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: parents are going to retire or half retired and are 335 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: not they don't have retirement savings. The vast majority of 336 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: American retirees cannot support their retirement, which means now we're 337 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: starting to think about elder care and most you know, 338 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: how different generations support each other. So the care movement 339 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: is coming. And my own organization, New America has what 340 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: we call the Better Life Lab that focuses on care 341 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: in issues and um family and social policy issues generally. 342 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: And then UH and we and care dot Com and 343 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: I Jin who's carrying across generations, are launching a who 344 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: Cares coalition to raise the value of care? So what 345 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: what a party? What's that strategy? But so there are 346 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: multiple pieces. One is the fair Care Pledge, So it 347 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: is a extraordinary that we pay the people who care 348 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: for our children the same amount we pay people to 349 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: mix our drinks, park our cars, and walk our dogs 350 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: roughly nine dollars an hour. That's that's well below minimum 351 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: wage in various places. They're not Uh, they are not 352 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: protected by just basic wage and our protections, like you 353 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 1: could have them work sixteen hours without paying over time. 354 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: So you start the fair care pledges. I will pay 355 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: somebody caring for my parents or my children anyone else 356 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: if a fair wage, I will. I will have decent 357 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: working conditions. Any of us can do that. We also 358 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: be government policy right because the problem is that lots 359 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: of people would like to pay their caregivers more, but 360 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: it's a choice between you know, their livelihood and the 361 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: caregivers livelihood. And childcare caught for two kids costs more 362 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 1: than the cost of bread in all fifty states. So 363 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: there's a personal piece the fair care pledge. There's advocating 364 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: for paid family lead and Secretary Clinton has a proposal 365 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: that no family should act to pay more than ten 366 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: percent of their income for childcare. I hope that will 367 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: extend elder care. Uh. There will be a corporate piece 368 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: in terms of corporations who can really support care and 369 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: then their storytelling, Right, you don't. This is what's closest 370 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: to our hearts, cares about our loved ones, and we 371 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: need to elevate those stories of forcing a woman to 372 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: choose between her job and her child, or a man 373 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: between his job and his child or his parents, and 374 00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: bring that into national consciousness. Caroline, We've got some big 375 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: news for the small screen. On July. Mr Robot is 376 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: coming back to us A Network for its second season. 377 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: That's right. It's been hailed by Rolling Stone, is the 378 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: number one show, and named Best Drama by the Golden 379 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: Globe and Critics Choice Awards. Mr Robot follows a cybersecurity 380 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: engineer who's recruited by the mysterious leader of an underground 381 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: group determined to bring down the world's largest corporation. But 382 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: when their hack is a success, that consequences are far 383 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: greater than they imagined. Following the events of f Society's 384 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: five nine hack on multinational company Evil Corps, the second 385 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: season will explore the consequences of that attack, as well 386 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,959 Speaker 1: as the illusion of control. Starring Rommy Malick and Christian Slater. 387 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: Mr Robot returns Wednesday July at ten nine Central only 388 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: on USA Network. So if you're looking for something to 389 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: binge on this summer, head on over to USA Network 390 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: on ly and tune in to Mr Robots. Have you 391 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: seen um with you know when you wrote your article 392 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: in twee twelve after you wrote your book. I'm interested 393 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: in the generational differences in the responses and to your 394 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: work and care today. My regional article, I think it 395 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: was fair to say, was broadly welcomed with enormous enthusiasm 396 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: by younger women, not all, but the vast majority, and 397 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: rejected and intensely disliked by many of the most successful 398 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: women of my generation. For reasons I understand. They felt 399 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,959 Speaker 1: that I was betraying what they and the generation ten 400 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: years ahead of me had worked so hard for it 401 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: that by kind of pulling aside the curtain and saying, 402 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: you know, I'm a really successful woman who's had a 403 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: great career, and I can't make this work. Want to 404 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: face with a choice between a teenage son and my career. 405 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: And if I, who have every advantage under the sun, 406 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: can't do this and I'm very ambitious, we need to 407 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: rethink this. They worried it was too soon that this 408 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: immediately gives employers and leaders ammunitions saye see, we've told 409 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: you all along. Women and the undy are going to 410 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: choose their families over their career. You shouldn't hire them. 411 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: You shouldn't expect them to do the same thing. So 412 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: young but younger women felt like, wait a minute. Of course, 413 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: we're just as good as any man. Of course we're 414 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: going to be equal, and this is just reality, and 415 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: you need to we need to talk about it openly. 416 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: You know this. The fact is we're stuck. We been 417 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: women at the leaders in a good industry, in aband industries, 418 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 1: it's like five percent. So younger women really felt like, 419 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,479 Speaker 1: thank you for being honest. I think many many older women, again, 420 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: particularly those who are in careers, felt like that honesty 421 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: may be true for you, it's not true for us. 422 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: And you're in paralleling the gains of the movement. And 423 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: then there's a whole group of women who never get 424 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: to talk. Who are the women who have stepped out 425 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: or taken a part time job or deferred promotion for 426 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: their their children, And they were enormously grateful. They are. 427 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: I always seen women who went to business school look 428 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: around the audience. If you think back to your business 429 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: school clients, at least two thirds are missing. And those 430 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: women are the women who couldn't make it work through 431 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: no faults of their own. It's not their ambition, it's life. 432 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: And why those women were very grateful. But those women 433 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: get heard from, right And then yeah, there's so many 434 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 1: layers in terms of sts and different backgrounds, and yes, 435 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: and you know they also their horses also are often 436 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: lifed out. So have you heard from some of these 437 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: women who aren't in business schools for they are working 438 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: three separate jobs. Yes, so so it's interesting and again 439 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: there needs to be a divide. So I'm part of 440 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 1: the I think my original article it was frankly aimed 441 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: at a very small slice of women. I said in 442 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: the article, I'm writing to the Atlantic readership. This is 443 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: not the women who are working three jobs. This this 444 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: is women who more orless look like me, and they 445 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: have careers like me. And so I knew that, and 446 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: of course, nevertheless I critique for it. But that's okay, 447 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: and that's that's fine. I think what I've come to 448 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,959 Speaker 1: think is that the frame of that article was wrong, 449 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: because it never to believe when we focus on having 450 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: it all or even women advancing, we're looking in a 451 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: narrow slice. I mean with that that lens says how 452 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: many women are in the fortune, that's the metric grond Zoon. Well, okay, 453 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: that best will be two women and the women who 454 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: aspired to that. That's a very small slice the care frame. 455 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: And this is again thinking very hard over three years 456 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: is much more amenable to a coalition of all women 457 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,719 Speaker 1: because we have too few women at the top and 458 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: far too many at the bottom. And those women at 459 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: the bottom are at the bottom because they are saddled 460 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: with caregiving and bread women both they are single mothers 461 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: that look, look at your statistics, and so thinking about 462 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: care and supporting care that is much more likely to 463 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: focus not on removies up conscious bias that prevent women 464 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: from being promoted at the top, and much more on 465 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: things like paid family leave and access to high quality 466 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: elder care and child care and flexible work that mean, 467 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: you know, women who are trying to get their kids 468 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: to school and uh take care of them when they 469 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: get sick. And also we're a living can do so. 470 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: So I now you know, I am never going to 471 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: be the leading spokeswomen for you know, caregivers in the 472 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: way that I gin Poots, which is one reason why 473 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: we've allied together. But I believe strongly that the women's 474 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: movement now has to speak for all women and that 475 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: is much more about care policy than confidence. Right, Absolutely, 476 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: what are just so our audience is clear, what's hyper forces? 477 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: Are the other ads in terms of an apptates in 478 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: of these policies? Why haven't they happen sooner? Why? Why 479 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: is there sundays us well focus on care? And basically 480 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: what do we have to do to push it through? 481 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: And is it this policy that we have to turn 482 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: around or as an attitudes as well? It is certainly both. 483 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: And it's complicated because there have been women all along, 484 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 1: since very early in the feminist movement who said waiting. 485 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: What's holding women back is the second shift? Right? Marlen Ashat, 486 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: We've all written the second shift with three decades ago, right, 487 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: And so it's this is not new and they've always 488 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: been women saying we have got to focus on issues 489 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: like paid leave and childcare. In nineteen seventy one, Richard 490 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: Nixon almost signed a bill that passed both majority both 491 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: houses of Congress by bi parties and majorities for universal childcare. 492 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: It's just you imagine what would have been like is 493 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: that he happened in nineteen seventy one, But he didn't, 494 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: and then a couple of things happened. He didn't because 495 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: it became a right left issue. It became a moral 496 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: majority issue that you know, universal child care was socialism 497 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: and it was anti women because it was it was 498 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: insisting that women go to work and you know, give 499 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: the care of their children over to others. And it 500 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,239 Speaker 1: became a Christian issue. It got tangled up in the 501 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: cultural war with politics, which was very bad. But also 502 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: then again, and I was one I know about what 503 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: I'm talking about. Women like me who wanted to make 504 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: it and be equal to men would touch those kinds 505 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: of gender issues with a ten foot pole. We were 506 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: gonna be like men. So we would focus on discrimination 507 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: in the workplace. We'd focused on closing the pay gap, 508 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: but care issues, all of that smacked of essentially stereotypes 509 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: and was the kind of went work we were walking 510 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: away from. So then you that worked family balanced, But 511 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: that was all about time management. You know, I hear, 512 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: how could a manager you are seeing two to full 513 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: time jobs in the one day when you're competing with 514 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: men who are only doing one of those jobs. Sure, 515 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: there's a small slice of just extraordinary women who make 516 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: it work and who have a huge amount of health. 517 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: But that's just not the standard we should be holding 518 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: all women too. And what is happening now is it 519 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: a growing number of women like me who have been 520 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: in the kind of career women confidence feminism camp are 521 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: now embracing a much more holistic care perspective. And certainly 522 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: you're seeing that as women politicians get elected. That's in 523 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: part because the votes are much more around care issues 524 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: than they are around confidence issues. And that's because I 525 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: think also we're seeing this is an economic and social 526 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: issue that are you know, we're riving women out of 527 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: the workforce because they can't make it work. If it's 528 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 1: more expensive to pay for child care, then somebody's gonna 529 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: stay home, and that somebody's going to be still much 530 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: more likely a woman. Uh. And it's also very bad 531 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: for our families and for the next generation. You know, 532 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: we've we're reaping the costs of not having parents, fathers 533 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: just as much as mother's able to spend the time 534 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: they need not only with their young kids, but with 535 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: their teenagers. Well, so who his serient rite, what countries, 536 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: what cultures that societies are doing it right, who can 537 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,399 Speaker 1: we love to and say, see, there's a well all 538 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: the Nordic countries, which is that's where we always go. 539 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: But the Nordic countries are important because they're you know, 540 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: they are highly competitive economies. They're not France. The Nordic 541 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: countries Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland. They've figured out how to 542 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: be highly innovative and the films like one of the 543 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: great centers some protech innovation world. Sweden too. They've figured 544 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: out how to how much more flexible economies. They are 545 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: not state uh governed and restricted economies like like some 546 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: of the kind of European countries are. But they have 547 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: figured out how to provide uh what I call and 548 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: I gin poop call a infrastructure of care right. They 549 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: provide muchternity relief and paternity lead. And some of that 550 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 1: paternity lead is mandatory in the sense of its use. 551 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: That are losing if a man doesn't take it. Nobody 552 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: gets it that you can leave at four o'clock and 553 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: do your work later or not do your work. And 554 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: they still managed to be highly productive and competitive. They 555 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: have high quality care available, some state sponsored, some private. 556 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: So those countries really are ahead of us, the French 557 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: or way ahead of it in terms of providing fantastic childcare. 558 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,879 Speaker 1: You know, parents who live in France for the first 559 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: five years of their children's lives, Like, why would you 560 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: ever go home? Because three months in you drop your 561 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 1: child off at state sponsored high quality care that ensures 562 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: that all kids get the kind of stimulation they need. Uh, 563 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: they have you know, home visits that they and and 564 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: France is the only one of the the continental European 565 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: countries where the birth rate is going up, right, because 566 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: they figured out if you make it easier to have kids, 567 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: you can in fact increase both your for your birthrate 568 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: and women in the labor force. So, but there are 569 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: other countries to where, um, you know, Japan interestingly enough 570 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: recognizes they desperately need women in the workforce and they 571 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: are starting to offer make it much easier for women 572 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,320 Speaker 1: to have care alternatives. They of course are an aging 573 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,439 Speaker 1: society and their pioneering elder care as well, and then 574 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: their their individual countries. In Britain has been great on 575 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,919 Speaker 1: things like you have a right to demand flexible work, 576 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: that's all right, and so the idea that if you 577 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: work part time you're stigmatized none Britain, you know, and 578 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: it you know, Britain's an Anglo American competitive economy. There 579 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: are way ahead of us on changing cultural attitudes about 580 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: men and on working differently. And Anne Marie Slaughter really 581 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: does believe that we can break that we can break 582 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: with this pattern. And because almost because the United States 583 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,919 Speaker 1: is so far behind in its care system, whether that's 584 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,399 Speaker 1: paid or unpaid, whether it's child care or elder care, 585 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: we are so far behind and have so little infrastructure, 586 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: that we really do have the opportunity to leap frog 587 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: over some of the these other countries that do have 588 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: even if they're much smaller, they do have maternity care 589 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: for instance, And we can potentially do great things. We 590 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: are an innovative country, We are a country full of 591 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: hard working people. We can figure out this whole caregiving system. Yeah. 592 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: And and in that she really believes that we can 593 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: break down gender stereotypes by you know, kind of eliminating 594 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: this idea that women are the natural caregivers and that 595 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: men that because that also takes a choice away from 596 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,240 Speaker 1: men to you know, men who might want to stay 597 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: home or men who might want more flexible schedules. Um. 598 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: And that we can achieve equality in caregiving and breadwinning, 599 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: which is something we should devote a podcast to. Um 600 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: bypassing policies, I mean again, like it's so clear that 601 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: she is such an academic, you know, and and again 602 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,879 Speaker 1: such a policy wonk because she really sees that as 603 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: the way forward. Yeah. The example that she gave in 604 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: the rest of our conversation was basically like, look at 605 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: these countries, for instance, who never had infrastructure for landline 606 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: telephones when they caught up, and when they started building infrastructure, 607 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: they didn't like build the old infrastructure for landlines, they 608 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,919 Speaker 1: went straight to building cell towers. And so she said, 609 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: we have an example, or we have a she said, 610 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: we have an opportunity in the US to do that too, 611 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: to leap frog the rest of the world. Uh. And 612 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: instead of creating leave only for women or only for parents, 613 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,919 Speaker 1: the US can now build an infrastructure of paid leave 614 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: for anyone people who are caring for children, parents, the sick, 615 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 1: or the disabled in any family. And yeah, like you said, 616 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: part of this is breaking down those gender stereotypes around 617 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: what it means to be a caregiver, whether that's paid 618 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: or unpaid, and what it means to be uh, the 619 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 1: breadwinner and so thank you so much to the brilliant, warm, 620 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: amazing and Marie Slaughter for taking the time to talk 621 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: with me in New York at her office. And UH, 622 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: she and I were both fresh off of getting back 623 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: to New York from d C, where we had both 624 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 1: attended the United States of Women's Summit, which was incredible. 625 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: I was just there as press, uh she was there 626 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: as a speaker, and she was actually on a panel 627 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: with I gen poo Um of the National Domestic Workers Alliance. UH. 628 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: They spoke together with several other women on a panel 629 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: called Valuing Caregiving in the twenty first Century. And at 630 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: the summit they announced this coalition called Who Cares, and 631 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,399 Speaker 1: it's a coalition that involves Slaughters Organization New America which 632 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: helped launch it, alongside care dot Com and uh Poo's 633 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: Caring across Generations. And basically what they're doing together is 634 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: working to bring attention to that important role that caregiving 635 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 1: does play in both our society in general but specifically 636 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: our economy, and just highlighting and supporting that need to 637 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: help our parents, our children, and ourselves by making the 638 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: caregiving system easier, better by improving the infrastructure around it, 639 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: and to learn more about that, you can go to 640 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 1: who Cares dot org. UM. Also, we highly recommend you 641 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: follow Anne Marie Slaughter on Twitter because she is very 642 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: active um and and drops gems of wisdom all the time. 643 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: You can follow her at slaughter a M which is 644 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:46,840 Speaker 1: s l a U g h t e r a M. 645 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: And while you're at it, you should also follow high 646 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: gen Poo on Twitter because together, I really think that 647 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 1: they're just they're they're already changing the world, um, and 648 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: they're going to continue to absolutely And I think Slaughter 649 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 1: Am sounds like an incredible morning show on the radio, 650 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,360 Speaker 1: So I love it. I'm you know, Amory. If you 651 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: want to carry on like a sound machine or like 652 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: a sound effects machine, just you know, or an air horn, 653 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: we're on board. I love the podcasters are pitching old 654 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: school radio radio station. It's just too good. UM. But 655 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 1: thank you again to Anne Marie, and I can't wait 656 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: to hear what our listeners think. UM. You know, are 657 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 1: you trapped in between a rock and hard place of 658 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: being in that generation having to care for young children 659 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: and also aging parents, UM, and facing a lack of 660 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: support from your workplace, from your family, from people around you. 661 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: Let us know mom Stuff at how stuff works dot 662 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: Com is our email address. You can also tweet us 663 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've 664 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you before 665 00:42:55,160 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: we head on out. All right, Well, speaking of I 666 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: jim Poo Krestin, I have a letter here from Kathy 667 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,720 Speaker 1: in response to our change Maker's conversation with I Gimpoo. 668 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,840 Speaker 1: She says, Uh, it truly hit home. I heard you 669 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: both say that caregiving is a subject you would like 670 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,280 Speaker 1: to hit on more in depth as well. I wanted 671 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: to suggest you also touch on the subject of children 672 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,839 Speaker 1: and young adults that are placed in a caregiver role. 673 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: I'm thirty three years old and my mom was diagnosed 674 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: with MS right after I was born. My brother and 675 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: I were lucky in one way that my dad was 676 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: the primary caretaker, but we also had to take on 677 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,320 Speaker 1: a caretaker role from my mom as a child. This 678 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: was hard. But even harder was when I became a 679 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 1: young adult, having to manage a career, social life, and 680 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,279 Speaker 1: having to help out my family. I was having to 681 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,319 Speaker 1: deal with things that some people in their fifties and 682 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 1: sixties still had yet to experience with their parents. I 683 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: know that this is a subject that many other children 684 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,520 Speaker 1: face and an even harder circumstances. I'm also seeing the 685 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: effects that caregiving can have on older people, as I 686 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: witnessed my dad go from caretaker to now widower and 687 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,879 Speaker 1: many struggles that brings. I'm also very inspired to see 688 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: what I can do to help make a difference for 689 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 1: others in this position. So thank you, Kathy, and I'm 690 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: so glad you enjoyed that episode with I gim Poo, 691 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 1: and I hope that means that you also enjoyed our 692 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: conversation today with Amory slaughter Well. I have a letter 693 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 1: here from Robin writing about our episode Feminism for Sale, 694 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,160 Speaker 1: in which we talked to Andy Ziezler, who's a co 695 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 1: founder of Bitch Media and also the author of the 696 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 1: recently released We Were Feminists Once. And Robin mentioned that 697 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: she works at her university library and was really excited 698 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: when the library got a copy in of We Were 699 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,240 Speaker 1: Feminist Once, and she writes, reading Ziesler's book and listening 700 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,959 Speaker 1: to your conversation has encouraged me to consider my own 701 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 1: foray into feminism. When I started university four years ago, 702 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,760 Speaker 1: I didn't identify as a feminist at all I believe. 703 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 1: I told my very feminist roommate that I didn't think 704 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 1: quote those kind of issues were relevant to me, and 705 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,560 Speaker 1: I'm surprised her eyes and roll out of her head. 706 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 1: And by the end of my second term, however, I 707 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 1: was writing an essay interrogating patriarchal conceptions of disability in 708 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 1: the bell Jar. And I started taking feminism theory courses 709 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,279 Speaker 1: in my second year, and since then much of what 710 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 1: I've written from my classes has looked at gender and sexuality. Now, 711 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,359 Speaker 1: a day before I officially graduate, congrats PS. I am 712 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,759 Speaker 1: proud to call myself a feminist, but I have to 713 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,239 Speaker 1: wonder how much of my own journey has been influenced 714 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,759 Speaker 1: by feminism's rising popularity. I had just finished my second 715 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: year of university when Beyonce made her feminist statement at 716 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: the v m A, and since then it seems as 717 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: though my personal declaration has been shared by many celebrities. 718 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,879 Speaker 1: I covet those Indis with feminists on their rear. I'm 719 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: a sucker for a good, strong female character, and I 720 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: sometimes wonder if my decision not to regularly shave my 721 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: legs qualifies as a feminist choice, and it's not. I 722 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: just think it's a lot of work to get my 723 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,960 Speaker 1: leg up in the shower. Well, I like to think 724 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: I'm more aware of feminist conversations that have been taking 725 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,319 Speaker 1: place out of the limelight. I'm so undeniably influenced by 726 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: the rhetoric of marketplace and choice feminism. It's a lot 727 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,160 Speaker 1: easier to call oneself a feminist in twenty sixteen while 728 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 1: ignoring political, economic, and social inequalities that continue to persist 729 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 1: around the world. Reading we were feminists once and listening 730 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: to wonderful podcast like Sminty remind me to constantly interrogate 731 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: my politics and refuse that kind of easy feminism which 732 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 1: doesn't challenge us to remake the world. Lots of love, Robin, 733 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,719 Speaker 1: Lots of love back to you, Robin um and and 734 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: best of luck as you leave college into I don't 735 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,839 Speaker 1: want to call the real world, because college is real, 736 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,400 Speaker 1: but into the next step in your in your womanhood 737 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,240 Speaker 1: and in your feminism. So with that, listeners, we also 738 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,759 Speaker 1: want to hear from you. Mom. Stuff at how stuffworks 739 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,239 Speaker 1: dot Com is our email address and for links to 740 00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of 741 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources so you 742 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,040 Speaker 1: can learn more about caregivers. Head on over to stuff 743 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:12,080 Speaker 1: Mom Never told You dot com for more on this 744 00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff Works 745 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:22,920 Speaker 1: dot com