WEBVTT - The Giant Torch That May Help Save the World 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:21.276 --> 0:00:24.036 When I'm just walking around the world day to day. 0:00:24.596 --> 0:00:27.716 They're all the obvious we need to solve this problem 0:00:27.796 --> 0:00:30.796 to deal with climate change kinds of problems that I 0:00:30.956 --> 0:00:34.316 notice that everybody notices, you know, all the cars people 0:00:34.356 --> 0:00:37.116 are driving, all the old buildings using heating oil, all 0:00:37.156 --> 0:00:41.276 the airplanes flying overhead. But on top of those in 0:00:41.316 --> 0:00:45.076 my face, in our face things, there are other things 0:00:45.116 --> 0:00:49.836 that are less obvious but also very big and very important, like, 0:00:50.116 --> 0:00:53.916 for example, the fertilizer that's used to grow the food 0:00:53.956 --> 0:00:57.196 we eat. Turns out, the standard way to make fertilizer 0:00:57.316 --> 0:01:00.716 is to take natural gas, which is basically just carbon 0:01:00.796 --> 0:01:05.636 and hydrogen, use the hydrogen to make ammonia, which makes fertilizer, 0:01:06.196 --> 0:01:09.716 and essentially release the carbon into the atmospe sphere in 0:01:09.756 --> 0:01:11.156 the form of carbon dioxide. 0:01:11.756 --> 0:01:13.516 A huge amount of carbon. 0:01:13.236 --> 0:01:17.076 Dioxide goes into the atmosphere every year because of fertilizer, 0:01:17.316 --> 0:01:21.076 which means that even the most goody two shoes vegan 0:01:21.276 --> 0:01:24.276 plant based meal can contribute to climate change. 0:01:24.756 --> 0:01:28.196 Unless you probably see where this is going, we. 0:01:28.156 --> 0:01:31.156 Could figure out a way to make fertilizer without that 0:01:31.676 --> 0:01:34.876 very annoying part where we release tons of carbon into 0:01:34.876 --> 0:01:38.036 the air as carbon dioxide. We would never notice the 0:01:38.036 --> 0:01:40.956 difference in our daily lives, but it would be a 0:01:41.036 --> 0:01:42.916 really big deal for the world. 0:01:47.596 --> 0:01:48.876 I'm Jacob Goldstein and this. 0:01:48.916 --> 0:01:51.076 Is What's Your Problem, the show where I talk to 0:01:51.116 --> 0:01:54.036 people who are trying to make technological progress. 0:01:54.556 --> 0:01:55.956 My guest today is Rob Hanson. 0:01:56.076 --> 0:01:58.876 He's the co founder and CEO of a company called Monolith. 0:01:59.396 --> 0:02:02.916 Rob's problem is this, how do you separate hydrogen from 0:02:02.996 --> 0:02:07.316 natural gas without emitting carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, and 0:02:07.356 --> 0:02:09.636 how do you do it at scale in a way 0:02:09.716 --> 0:02:15.636 that makes economic sense. What is the sort of basic, cheap, mass, 0:02:15.636 --> 0:02:18.876 industrial scale way to get hydrogen. 0:02:19.236 --> 0:02:22.836 Now, you take steam and you take methane, and you 0:02:22.916 --> 0:02:27.116 heat them up together really hot, and the oxygen from 0:02:27.116 --> 0:02:29.756 the water in the steam reacts with the carbon in 0:02:29.796 --> 0:02:32.756 the methane to make CO two, liberates a bunch of energy. 0:02:33.196 --> 0:02:36.156 All the rest of the hydrogen is converted to free hydrogen, 0:02:36.596 --> 0:02:39.356 and so you get hydrogen from both water and methane. 0:02:39.396 --> 0:02:42.796 But the energy that's being put into that chemically is 0:02:42.916 --> 0:02:44.876 the carbon reacting with the oxygen form CO two. 0:02:45.076 --> 0:02:48.516 So the basic idea here is you've got methane, you 0:02:48.556 --> 0:02:52.596 get natural gas, which is essentially hydrogen and carbon, and 0:02:52.636 --> 0:02:55.156 you want to find some way to separate the hydrogen 0:02:55.236 --> 0:02:59.516 and the carbon without sending that carbon into the atmosphere. Right, 0:02:59.556 --> 0:03:01.436 That's what you're trying to figure out. And at some 0:03:01.556 --> 0:03:05.516 point you discover the work of this French scientist named 0:03:05.716 --> 0:03:08.876 Laurent Foucherie, and he has an idea for how to 0:03:08.916 --> 0:03:11.876 do so tell me about that. How do you wind 0:03:11.956 --> 0:03:12.716 up working with him? 0:03:13.676 --> 0:03:15.876 And so I just emailed him. I mean, I still 0:03:15.916 --> 0:03:18.036 I look at that email everyone. I just emailed him 0:03:18.076 --> 0:03:22.596 from the email address on the scientific paper and he responded, 0:03:23.116 --> 0:03:25.116 and then Pete and I flew to France and we 0:03:25.156 --> 0:03:27.796 met him, and the moment was we've done lots of this, right, 0:03:27.836 --> 0:03:31.116 We met lots of professors or researchers, and usually they'd 0:03:31.156 --> 0:03:33.076 have a paper and maybe they'd have like a poster 0:03:33.316 --> 0:03:35.916 of what they did. And Laurel started there. He described 0:03:35.956 --> 0:03:38.596 his work and then he's like, do you guys want 0:03:38.596 --> 0:03:39.356 to see the reactor? 0:03:39.676 --> 0:03:40.036 Ah? 0:03:40.156 --> 0:03:42.436 And we're like, what do you mean the reactor. He's like, well, 0:03:42.436 --> 0:03:44.236 I'll go show you the reactor. So we go and 0:03:44.276 --> 0:03:45.996 it's like this thing out of a science fiction movie. 0:03:45.996 --> 0:03:47.636 It's in a room, it's maybe six feet tall. It's 0:03:47.636 --> 0:03:50.396 got wires and tubes coming out of it, and we're like, whoa, 0:03:50.596 --> 0:03:53.556 this is incredible. And then he says, do draw me 0:03:53.596 --> 0:03:57.676 to turn it on, and we're like sure, and so 0:03:57.716 --> 0:04:01.516 it gives us had you know, earplugs and dark glasses, 0:04:01.596 --> 0:04:05.556 and this like flurry of French researchers kind of comes around. 0:04:05.636 --> 0:04:07.916 So he gives you the glasses. Why when he turns 0:04:07.916 --> 0:04:08.876 it on? What happened? 0:04:09.476 --> 0:04:11.676 So he turns on? So what drives this process? Right? 0:04:11.796 --> 0:04:15.236 Using electricity to heat methane too incredible temperatures. Well, the 0:04:15.276 --> 0:04:16.916 way you do that is with what's called a plasma 0:04:16.956 --> 0:04:21.436 torgu sounds cool. Yeah, imagine a like a combustion burner, 0:04:21.556 --> 0:04:24.316 like a flame, even a gas stove right where you're 0:04:24.316 --> 0:04:27.756 burning a combustion. It looks like that, but instead of 0:04:28.636 --> 0:04:32.916 being fire, it's a plasma generated by an electric discharge. 0:04:33.156 --> 0:04:35.476 And he has a view hole through that you can 0:04:35.556 --> 0:04:38.156 actually see it, and so it's like lightning inside of 0:04:38.196 --> 0:04:41.556 this reactor. And it's purple because it was a nitrogen plasma, 0:04:41.956 --> 0:04:47.076 and it's loud and bright and incredible, and it's doing 0:04:47.116 --> 0:04:50.476 the thing you want to do. Yeah, it's heating you know, 0:04:50.716 --> 0:04:54.156 gas to very high temperature using one hundred percent electricity 0:04:54.276 --> 0:04:55.676 with no combustion. 0:04:56.156 --> 0:05:00.436 And what you get out is hydrogen and carbon black. Yep, 0:05:00.756 --> 0:05:02.356 that's right, So tell me about carbon black. 0:05:02.596 --> 0:05:05.836 All right, So it's solid carbon, but as most people know, 0:05:06.356 --> 0:05:09.076 not all solid carbon is created equal. You've got graphite, 0:05:09.796 --> 0:05:13.596 diamonds are pure carbon, very different than graphite, and then 0:05:13.636 --> 0:05:15.916 carbon black is another form of pure carbon. And when 0:05:15.956 --> 0:05:18.036 you zoom in on it with an electron microscope, it 0:05:18.076 --> 0:05:21.316 looks like a bunch of grapes. So there's these spheres 0:05:21.356 --> 0:05:25.276 of carbon that are nanometers maybe ten to fifteen nanimeters, 0:05:25.516 --> 0:05:27.556 and then they fuse together into what looks like a 0:05:27.556 --> 0:05:30.836 bunch of grapes. And that's really important because that structure, 0:05:31.316 --> 0:05:33.476 when you mix it, and they discovered this around World 0:05:33.556 --> 0:05:37.916 War One, if you mix that carbon structure into rubber, 0:05:38.476 --> 0:05:41.316 it dramatically reinforces it. And so if you think of 0:05:41.996 --> 0:05:46.316 a pencil eraser, that's rubber without any reinforcing carbon black, 0:05:46.356 --> 0:05:47.796 and then if you think of the tread of your tire, 0:05:47.996 --> 0:05:51.516 that's got highly reinforcing carbon black. And you couldn't really 0:05:51.556 --> 0:05:55.236 make a modern car tire out of erasers, but you 0:05:55.316 --> 0:05:57.916 absolutely can out of carbon black filled rubber. 0:05:58.316 --> 0:06:00.116 So is Laurent part of the company. 0:06:00.796 --> 0:06:03.996 Yeah, yeah, I talked to Laurn every week pretty much. 0:06:04.636 --> 0:06:07.436 He has for ten years, been a big part of it. 0:06:07.636 --> 0:06:10.556 We have a research partnership. Still run that pilot reactor 0:06:10.596 --> 0:06:14.316 in his lab doing kind of experimental work because it's small. 0:06:15.196 --> 0:06:19.676 Our commercial reactor in Nebraska is one hundred feet tall, okay, giant, 0:06:20.156 --> 0:06:22.836 you know, Laren's is six feet He's, you know, an 0:06:22.876 --> 0:06:27.036 equity holder in the company. Just an awesome guy. Like 0:06:27.076 --> 0:06:29.156 I said, we were right, we got super lucky and 0:06:29.636 --> 0:06:30.676 he was the real deal. 0:06:30.836 --> 0:06:33.876 So how did you turn Lauren's idea? How did you 0:06:33.916 --> 0:06:37.276 turn this thing you saw in his lab into Monolith 0:06:37.316 --> 0:06:38.796 into this company you have now? 0:06:39.796 --> 0:06:42.716 Yeah, So we have a saying at Monolith, which is, 0:06:43.276 --> 0:06:46.436 we don't do things because they are easy. We do 0:06:46.556 --> 0:06:48.676 things because we thought they would be easy. 0:06:49.036 --> 0:06:50.636 Yeah. 0:06:50.676 --> 0:06:54.716 And so his system operates at three kilograms per hour 0:06:54.716 --> 0:06:58.796 of production. And now we've spent the last eleven years 0:06:58.836 --> 0:07:01.676 going from three kilograms per hour up to fifteen hundred. 0:07:01.836 --> 0:07:04.276 We literally just hit the fifteen hundred kilograms per hour 0:07:04.516 --> 0:07:07.476 in the last couple of months, so five hundred x 0:07:07.556 --> 0:07:12.316 increase in scale and that was really hard. And then 0:07:12.356 --> 0:07:15.716 it's not just fifteen hundred, you know, for a minute 0:07:15.796 --> 0:07:17.156 or an hour, it's you have to be able to 0:07:17.196 --> 0:07:19.436 do it all the time. It's got to be commercially 0:07:19.556 --> 0:07:24.356 viable manufacturing process. It's the classic head We known it 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:25.676 was going to be this hard, we probably would have 0:07:25.756 --> 0:07:29.076 never started, but we did, and we've got the other side. 0:07:29.116 --> 0:07:31.356 So I want to talk about where you are now. 0:07:31.396 --> 0:07:33.316 I want to talk about being on the other side. 0:07:33.436 --> 0:07:35.196 But before we do that, I want to go back 0:07:35.476 --> 0:07:39.116 because I've heard you talk about sort of figuring out 0:07:39.436 --> 0:07:42.356 how to found the company. Because I've heard you talk 0:07:42.396 --> 0:07:46.116 about founding the company, and in particular the frame you 0:07:46.316 --> 0:07:49.996 took in figuring out what to do, like what company 0:07:49.996 --> 0:07:53.916 to found? That frame seems really interesting and really useful. 0:07:54.236 --> 0:07:55.276 Talk about that a little bit. 0:07:55.756 --> 0:07:59.676 We had this basically founding philosophy, and that is that 0:08:00.356 --> 0:08:03.116 what clean tech really needs to be is it needs 0:08:03.156 --> 0:08:06.796 to be both clean and economically advantaged. 0:08:06.796 --> 0:08:11.836 Meaning cheaper or better then other products in the marketplace. 0:08:11.916 --> 0:08:16.036 Right now, your your your value proposition minus your cost 0:08:16.036 --> 0:08:19.276 structure is better than everyone else's and you can win 0:08:19.316 --> 0:08:20.996 on both sides to be a better business. 0:08:20.876 --> 0:08:22.436 It's a better business in some way. 0:08:22.476 --> 0:08:25.516 Yeah, Okay, it's really easy to do something just cheaper 0:08:25.556 --> 0:08:27.716 if you have no regard for the environment. Right, we've 0:08:27.756 --> 0:08:30.716 seen that, and it usually is in the you know, 0:08:30.796 --> 0:08:34.196 most disadvantaged communities that bear the burden. And the other 0:08:34.236 --> 0:08:37.196 side's also quite easy. And you see this. The media 0:08:37.276 --> 0:08:40.636 loves these. It's a cleaner way to do something, but 0:08:40.876 --> 0:08:43.916 the second sentences, it's going to cost way more and 0:08:43.956 --> 0:08:46.596 it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work at scale. 0:08:46.996 --> 0:08:49.276 If that's your value proposition. Now it's okay to be 0:08:49.436 --> 0:08:52.556 more expensive or have a less total value proposition early 0:08:52.596 --> 0:08:55.676 on with a pathway to becoming. And I think you know, 0:08:55.756 --> 0:08:57.236 PD solar is an example of that. 0:08:57.556 --> 0:09:01.036 Yeah, started out more expensive and then got cheaper. 0:09:01.476 --> 0:09:04.276 Yeah, and that's okay. Those you got to be skeptical 0:09:04.316 --> 0:09:08.396 because it's quite rare that that's actually the story. Much 0:09:08.396 --> 0:09:13.036 more typically, it starts out more expensive, it ends more expensive. Yeah, 0:09:13.276 --> 0:09:14.836 but look, that's what we were searching for. 0:09:15.236 --> 0:09:18.276 Presumably, it's hard to find something that is both cleaner 0:09:18.316 --> 0:09:20.996 and cheaper, because if it existed, somebody'd. 0:09:20.556 --> 0:09:23.196 Already be doing it. Right, It's like a twenty dollars 0:09:23.196 --> 0:09:24.436 bill lying on a sidewalk. 0:09:25.156 --> 0:09:29.036 Yeah, and so The third part is the reason that 0:09:29.116 --> 0:09:31.556 it hadn't been done, Todate. That's what we were searching for, 0:09:31.756 --> 0:09:34.036 was it was cleaner, it was cheaper, and the reason 0:09:34.076 --> 0:09:36.916 it hadn't been done is that the technology had not 0:09:37.036 --> 0:09:39.956 been advanced sufficiently to make it happen. 0:09:43.636 --> 0:09:46.756 In a minute, Rob talks about where Monolith is today. 0:09:47.276 --> 0:09:51.676 Spoiler alert, It includes the biggest plasma torch ever built 0:09:51.956 --> 0:09:57.036 in the history of the world. 0:10:03.556 --> 0:10:04.756 Now back to the show. 0:10:05.356 --> 0:10:07.436 So, how big is your plasma torch? 0:10:08.516 --> 0:10:10.476 Biggest p my torch that's ever been built. 0:10:10.516 --> 0:10:13.076 What's it look like? How big is it? How tall 0:10:13.156 --> 0:10:14.476 is it? I don't know. I don't even know a task. 0:10:15.556 --> 0:10:20.116 It's measured in tons. It almost looks like a like 0:10:20.196 --> 0:10:22.636 a big rocket engine. You could say it's you know, 0:10:22.716 --> 0:10:29.236 thousands of parts, it's maybe twenty feet tall and use 0:10:29.316 --> 0:10:30.316 cranes to move it around. 0:10:30.396 --> 0:10:31.636 Let's actually talk about how it works. 0:10:31.676 --> 0:10:35.076 So you have a reactor now, right, and you said 0:10:35.116 --> 0:10:39.476 it's commercial scale, meaning you're are you selling hydrogen and 0:10:39.516 --> 0:10:40.116 carbon black. 0:10:40.876 --> 0:10:43.956 Yeah, we're selling the carbon black to the existing market. 0:10:44.236 --> 0:10:45.876 There's a number of things in our public but one 0:10:45.876 --> 0:10:49.236 that is public was with Goodyear, right, big American iconic 0:10:49.436 --> 0:10:55.276 tire manufacturer, so we collaborate with them, and they included 0:10:55.276 --> 0:10:58.876 our carbon black in their electric drive GT tire, which 0:10:58.876 --> 0:11:02.476 is the Tesla Model three replacement tire. Okay, and that 0:11:02.636 --> 0:11:04.316 was a bit of a demo tire for them. I 0:11:04.396 --> 0:11:08.796 think that one was ninety percent sustainable materials. So right, 0:11:08.836 --> 0:11:10.596 tire are made up of all different types of things 0:11:10.636 --> 0:11:12.356 and the big push is to get them to be 0:11:12.356 --> 0:11:15.636 one hundred percent sustainable over time. And so that was 0:11:15.636 --> 0:11:17.756 a nice step along the way. And then we're working 0:11:17.756 --> 0:11:20.956 with other tire companies as well to reduce the carbon 0:11:20.996 --> 0:11:22.996 footprint of their tires. 0:11:23.516 --> 0:11:25.196 And what about the hydrogen. 0:11:25.876 --> 0:11:28.356 The hydrogen which I'll get into, we're sadly not selling 0:11:28.396 --> 0:11:31.436 yet and that's because even though it's a commercial scale plant, 0:11:32.556 --> 0:11:36.836 it wasn't big enough to justify investing and converning that 0:11:36.876 --> 0:11:39.036 hydrogen into ammonia. It would have been like the world's 0:11:39.036 --> 0:11:41.636 smallest ammonia plant. So this is the first unit. And 0:11:42.116 --> 0:11:45.156 then now that we're reaching success, and this is you know, 0:11:45.196 --> 0:11:47.156 the Department of Energy stepping in for the next stage, 0:11:47.156 --> 0:11:50.076 which is to build twelve more of those identical units 0:11:50.076 --> 0:11:52.676 at the same site. Then we'll have thirteen total. Once 0:11:52.716 --> 0:11:54.956 we have thirteen total. All the hydrogen from the thirteen 0:11:55.036 --> 0:11:59.116 will go into a normal kind of world scale ammonia plant. 0:11:59.236 --> 0:12:02.076 So let's talk about what you still have to do 0:12:02.356 --> 0:12:04.116 and then what you still have to figure out to 0:12:04.156 --> 0:12:05.956 do the things you want to do. Right, so you 0:12:06.036 --> 0:12:09.836 have this proof of concept plant essentially that is like, 0:12:11.036 --> 0:12:14.756 you know, you're not quite to true industrial scale yet. 0:12:14.796 --> 0:12:19.076 That's exactly nailed it. So we are full industrial scale reactor. 0:12:19.516 --> 0:12:22.476 But carbon black plants never have one reactor. They have 0:12:22.876 --> 0:12:24.396 ten or in our case, we're going to do. 0:12:24.396 --> 0:12:25.196 The same with hydrogen. 0:12:25.276 --> 0:12:27.156 Right, you're not making enough hydrogen to that's rery make 0:12:27.236 --> 0:12:27.516 it worth. 0:12:27.596 --> 0:12:30.556 So in fact, while our plant is you know commercial 0:12:30.556 --> 0:12:33.796 and operating, it's the world's smallest commercial carb black plant 0:12:33.876 --> 0:12:35.676 right now, right, And so the next step is to 0:12:36.196 --> 0:12:38.716 build it out, and it's that modular buildout, and we 0:12:38.796 --> 0:12:42.076 decided to do twelve reactors next in two groups of six, 0:12:42.796 --> 0:12:44.676 and we're hoping to break ground on it next year. 0:12:45.236 --> 0:12:48.356 It's you know, over a billion dollar project. We did 0:12:48.396 --> 0:12:50.556 get a conditional commitment from the Department of Energy to 0:12:50.676 --> 0:12:53.436 fund a billion dollars of debt into that project, and 0:12:53.436 --> 0:12:55.756 then we're going to raise equity from our existing shareholders 0:12:55.756 --> 0:12:58.236 as well as probably some new ones in the new year, 0:12:58.596 --> 0:13:00.396 and that's the next step, and that plant will then 0:13:00.436 --> 0:13:04.556 be a true world scale manufacturing facility. And we think 0:13:04.596 --> 0:13:06.636 that's you know, the next five years is what's going 0:13:06.636 --> 0:13:07.316 to take us to do that? 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:10.756 What are the what might go wrong? 0:13:12.196 --> 0:13:16.396 I think probably the biggest risk is you know, it's 0:13:16.436 --> 0:13:17.236 a megaproject. 0:13:17.316 --> 0:13:21.796 You say megaproject, I think over budget and takes forever. 0:13:22.316 --> 0:13:24.356 Yeah, And that's the challenge, right, is how do you 0:13:24.396 --> 0:13:27.916 mitigate that risk? But that's the risk, and you nailed it. 0:13:27.916 --> 0:13:32.316 It's it's just mega projects don't have a great track record, 0:13:32.756 --> 0:13:34.596 and we're doing everything we can to mitigate it. But 0:13:34.596 --> 0:13:36.196 that's the one that keeps me awake at night is 0:13:36.636 --> 0:13:40.516 you find yourself with you know, unseasonably cold winters or 0:13:40.596 --> 0:13:43.876 unseasonably wet summers and all of a sudden, it just 0:13:44.596 --> 0:13:45.916 you've slipped on schedule. 0:13:46.356 --> 0:13:49.476 Oh man, if the weather can screw you over, that's terrifying. 0:13:50.316 --> 0:13:52.596 But that's big construction, right, And that's the challenge of 0:13:52.596 --> 0:13:55.876 the energy transition that few people talk about is it's 0:13:55.956 --> 0:13:59.036 always just the technology. And like, don't get me wrong, 0:13:59.076 --> 0:14:01.556 I've spent a decade in the technology realm, I understand 0:14:01.556 --> 0:14:03.956 how hard it is. But then you've actually got to 0:14:03.956 --> 0:14:06.076 build out infrastructure, and if. 0:14:05.916 --> 0:14:08.796 We're serious, billion dollar projects that no one has ever 0:14:08.836 --> 0:14:10.516 built before anywhere ever. 0:14:11.036 --> 0:14:15.636 Yeah, and if we're serious about tackling climate like, we 0:14:15.756 --> 0:14:20.516 have to rebuild a major portion of our infrastructure, our 0:14:20.636 --> 0:14:25.836 energy infrastructure and industrial infrastructure, materials infrastructure, And of course 0:14:25.836 --> 0:14:29.276 there's risk in that. I think what we offer, and 0:14:29.356 --> 0:14:31.956 I think this is an important model, is you need 0:14:31.956 --> 0:14:33.916 to have returns that are commensurate with that risk. 0:14:33.996 --> 0:14:36.396 So okay, so there's the megaproject. That's kind of the 0:14:36.436 --> 0:14:41.916 medium term challenge. I mean there's also hydrogen, right, Like 0:14:41.916 --> 0:14:43.876 we've been talking about hydrogen and sort of where it 0:14:43.916 --> 0:14:47.196 is now, and hydrogen has this really essential input for 0:14:47.676 --> 0:14:50.956 ultimately fertilizer. But there's sort of a couple sides of 0:14:50.996 --> 0:14:53.556 hydrogen that we haven't talked about yet that seem like 0:14:53.596 --> 0:14:57.116 big and interesting. Like one is where the hydrogen is 0:14:57.556 --> 0:14:59.756 coming from, or where the natural gas I should say 0:14:59.796 --> 0:15:03.556 is coming from, and then the other is other potential 0:15:03.636 --> 0:15:06.196 uses of hydrogen. Right, those both seem like big ideas 0:15:06.196 --> 0:15:08.036 that you could potentially be at the center. 0:15:07.796 --> 0:15:11.956 Off that's right. Yeah, So you know, we intentionally because 0:15:11.956 --> 0:15:14.196 we didn't want to have that risk of chicken and 0:15:14.236 --> 0:15:16.956 egg on a new hydrogen market, we started with an 0:15:16.996 --> 0:15:21.036 existing end use that's not going away now. Going beyond that, 0:15:21.916 --> 0:15:24.036 I think there's going to be lots of growth in hydrogen. 0:15:24.156 --> 0:15:26.716 If we're a hundred million tons today, you know, I 0:15:26.796 --> 0:15:30.116 think the bulls have it at five hundred million tons 0:15:30.556 --> 0:15:33.596 by pick your date, and maybe not quite that optimistic. 0:15:33.676 --> 0:15:35.956 But you know, do we have a couple hundred million 0:15:35.956 --> 0:15:37.196 tons of hydrogen probably? 0:15:38.156 --> 0:15:43.876 What are the big drivers of growth for hydrogen demand 0:15:43.956 --> 0:15:46.796 for use of hydrogen in the next ten twenty years. 0:15:46.996 --> 0:15:49.676 I think heavy transportation is interesting. So think of like 0:15:49.756 --> 0:15:53.156 big ships, maybe class eight trucks, which is like you know, 0:15:53.276 --> 0:15:54.676 long haul trucking. 0:15:54.676 --> 0:15:59.196 Basically transportation that is so energy intensive that it will 0:15:59.236 --> 0:16:02.236 be very hard to electrify, and so then you'll want 0:16:02.276 --> 0:16:05.476 some alternative clean source of power. 0:16:05.796 --> 0:16:09.516 Yes, if you imagine a container ship going from Long 0:16:09.556 --> 0:16:12.676 Beach to Shanghai, the whole thing would be batteries. If 0:16:12.716 --> 0:16:15.036 you wanted to do it with batteries, and so you 0:16:15.076 --> 0:16:17.796 need a liquid fuel and you can burn ammonia. But 0:16:17.836 --> 0:16:19.956 I think there'll be some applications there, and then I 0:16:19.996 --> 0:16:22.596 think there'll be other chemical applications. The big one that 0:16:22.716 --> 0:16:25.956 could be huge is steel. Right, So steel is typically 0:16:25.956 --> 0:16:28.676 reduced with carbon, the iron ore is reduced with carbon. 0:16:28.756 --> 0:16:31.356 You make CO two lots of it. You can reduce 0:16:31.356 --> 0:16:34.316 steel with hydrogen and that way you only make water 0:16:34.436 --> 0:16:38.036 instead of CO two. You know that, that's kind of 0:16:38.076 --> 0:16:40.716 you got to be the cheapest possible hydrogen to play 0:16:40.716 --> 0:16:43.796 in that world because there's not any margin in the steel. 0:16:43.836 --> 0:16:47.316 Steel is just a brutal commodity business, right, Yeah, that's right, 0:16:47.476 --> 0:16:50.636 Or you need some kind of subsidy, you need a policy. 0:16:50.676 --> 0:16:52.236 Lever would be the other way to do it, right, 0:16:52.276 --> 0:16:52.636 that's right. 0:16:52.996 --> 0:16:55.796 Yeah. So you know if a couple of parts of 0:16:55.796 --> 0:16:59.156 those two part of steel, part of heavy transportation, I mean, 0:16:59.156 --> 0:17:02.196 you'd see hydrogen demand double over today's Yeah. 0:17:02.476 --> 0:17:04.396 Planes, I mean, I know it's kind of a dream. 0:17:04.436 --> 0:17:06.396 But like people are, you don't buy it. You're wincing 0:17:06.436 --> 0:17:09.196 at what I say. 0:17:09.636 --> 0:17:11.316 No, I don't not buy it. 0:17:11.396 --> 0:17:14.756 I think I think the most likely root for hydrogen 0:17:14.796 --> 0:17:19.836 getting into airplanes is through synthetically produced liquid hydrocarbons, which 0:17:19.836 --> 0:17:21.956 you can like CO two plus hydrogen, you can convert 0:17:21.956 --> 0:17:26.636 into jet fuel, and so that I believe pure hydrogen. 0:17:26.876 --> 0:17:32.036 I think for shorter haul maybe big planes, long distances, 0:17:32.476 --> 0:17:34.676 it's a hard problem. You need a lot of energy density. 0:17:34.676 --> 0:17:35.796 I mean you have when you want a lot of 0:17:35.876 --> 0:17:39.436 energy density, it's it's hard to beat, Like kerosene, just 0:17:39.516 --> 0:17:40.316 really hard to beat it. 0:17:40.436 --> 0:17:44.276 Yeah, well, I mean it is interesting, you know, given 0:17:44.316 --> 0:17:49.876 that your input is a fossil fuel, right, like methane, 0:17:51.556 --> 0:17:56.516 like oil is under the ground and it's from whatever 0:17:56.596 --> 0:17:59.876 one hundred million years ago, like the sun grew plants 0:17:59.916 --> 0:18:02.116 and then they died and then they sat under the 0:18:02.156 --> 0:18:04.716 ground and they turned into methane. 0:18:04.916 --> 0:18:05.076 Like. 0:18:05.596 --> 0:18:08.236 Fossil fuels are amazing in that way, right, They're like 0:18:08.276 --> 0:18:12.516 this incredible store of energy that you can use whenever 0:18:12.556 --> 0:18:12.916 you want. 0:18:13.036 --> 0:18:16.676 And yeah, and it's uh, I spend too much time 0:18:16.716 --> 0:18:17.796 thinking about deep time. 0:18:18.396 --> 0:18:20.756 When you think about deep time, what do you think about. 0:18:21.356 --> 0:18:25.156 So I'm working on this project where I'm just trying 0:18:25.196 --> 0:18:28.916 to do the geological timescale in the basement of my house. 0:18:29.516 --> 0:18:32.436 And so I've got this line that is, you know, 0:18:32.516 --> 0:18:35.276 forty five meters long, right, And if you have a 0:18:35.316 --> 0:18:36.516 line that's forty. 0:18:36.236 --> 0:18:40.436 Five going around the sort of the whole perimeter. Yeah, Like, 0:18:40.516 --> 0:18:42.676 help me picture. This is like a finished basement. It's 0:18:42.676 --> 0:18:43.516 like a rumpus room. 0:18:43.716 --> 0:18:45.276 That's what's going on in your basement. 0:18:45.316 --> 0:18:51.356 Okay, right, that's right, and so right, the age of 0:18:51.356 --> 0:18:53.836 the universe is four point five billion years. 0:18:54.076 --> 0:18:55.996 You said the universe. I think you mean Earth. 0:18:56.956 --> 0:18:59.796 And so if you've got forty five meters, which is 0:19:00.396 --> 0:19:04.196 forty five thousand centimeters, it means that each centimeter of 0:19:04.196 --> 0:19:07.476 that line is one hundred thousand years. Each millimeter, right, 0:19:07.596 --> 0:19:10.916 a millimeter, which is like the stroke of a pen, Yeah, 0:19:11.036 --> 0:19:12.396 is ten thousand years? 0:19:12.716 --> 0:19:15.196 Love it? All of human history basically? Yeah? 0:19:15.276 --> 0:19:16.916 Yeah. So you can then like look at this thing 0:19:16.996 --> 0:19:19.436 and be like, all of human history is the stroke 0:19:19.476 --> 0:19:21.956 of a pen on this line that extends around the 0:19:22.116 --> 0:19:25.876 entirety of the room. But your point is exactly right. 0:19:25.836 --> 0:19:28.236 Anything, I don't I'm not ready to leave your basement yet. 0:19:29.276 --> 0:19:31.476 What motivated you to draw this line? 0:19:31.956 --> 0:19:35.476 I wanted to explain to my kids how how long 0:19:35.556 --> 0:19:38.076 geological time was. That's nice anyways, that was what I 0:19:38.116 --> 0:19:39.636 was trying to do, is try to explain to my 0:19:39.756 --> 0:19:43.556 kids how deep time is. But in the energy one 0:19:43.596 --> 0:19:44.276 it's right. 0:19:44.236 --> 0:19:45.516 Wait, did it work? 0:19:47.076 --> 0:19:49.076 Do you think your kid's got a better understanding. 0:19:49.716 --> 0:19:51.876 Let's ask him in like five to ten years. 0:19:52.716 --> 0:19:55.876 And so do you think about deep time in relation 0:19:56.596 --> 0:19:57.276 to your work? 0:19:57.556 --> 0:19:59.876 Yes? I mean this is the point is you made 0:19:59.876 --> 0:20:03.236 the point of what fossil fuels are is a transfer 0:20:03.236 --> 0:20:05.876 of energy through deep time that we as a species 0:20:05.876 --> 0:20:08.716 has accessed, right, and we first access to transfer of 0:20:08.836 --> 0:20:12.836 energy through time with like fire. Right when you burn 0:20:12.916 --> 0:20:14.956 wood you get to access one hundred years of stored 0:20:15.036 --> 0:20:17.716 energy that the treated. When you burn coal you get 0:20:17.756 --> 0:20:20.716 to access hundreds of millions of years of stored energy. 0:20:21.316 --> 0:20:26.396 And that's been incredible. It's changed our society, our planet, 0:20:26.516 --> 0:20:30.796 our way of life. And that's because transferring energy through 0:20:30.836 --> 0:20:34.556 deep time is net positive. The problem is is that 0:20:34.556 --> 0:20:37.276 when you transfer energy through deep time with combustion, you 0:20:37.356 --> 0:20:40.756 also transfer the CO two from the ancient atmosphere that 0:20:40.916 --> 0:20:43.996 was over hundreds of millions of years drawn down in 0:20:44.036 --> 0:20:47.996 a balanced way into the atmosphere now over hundreds or 0:20:47.996 --> 0:20:50.916 a couple thousand years. And that's the challenge. And so 0:20:50.996 --> 0:20:54.316 what monolith is at its core? Right, we're still transferring 0:20:54.316 --> 0:20:57.356