WEBVTT - The Shroud Of Turin: No Ordinary Bed Sheet 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.600 Hey, March is tripod month, my friend, and you know 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:06.680 what that means. Yes, that means it's time to let 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:11.360 people know about your favorite podcasts, just to share the 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:14.400 sheer joy of podcast listening. That's right, it's t r 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:17.479 y pod still in nascent industry. A lot of people 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.880 don't know what podcasts are and helps everybody out if 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.240 you would go out and just say, hey, family member, 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:26.920 who I see it? Thanksgiving once a year? Right, you 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.000 should try out this thing called a podcast. Here's what 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:30.920 they are. Here's a cool show you should try, and 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:32.479 here's how to get it. Yeah, and it doesn't have 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:34.800 to be our show, just any podcast you like in 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:38.320 general that you think someone else would like to share it. Yeah, 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:44.120 So get on board the dry pod train. Welcome to 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:53.800 stuff you should know from how stuff works dot com. Hey, 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:57.600 and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. Sitting across 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:01.760 from me is Charles W. Chuck Bryant look so sharp today, dude, 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:06.800 wrapped in wrapped in my herring bone linen. I thought 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.280 that was an Infinity scarf. You're wearing it like an 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.480 Infinity scarf. That's the second Infinity scarf joke you've made, 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:18.479 although one was live on stage where you, uh, well, 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:22.000 immediate at you accidentally made fun of the lady there 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.000 on the first Yeah, some lady was like, well, what's 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:26.600 wrong with the infinity scarves? And I looked over and 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.200 lo and behold she was wearing an infinity scarf. Backpedal 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:32.440 from that pretty fast. I don't get why what is 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:34.280 it called an infinity scarf because it looks as if 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.960 it never ends. I think it's a scarf that is 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:43.520 sewn together. It's like a ring. Okay, that's all. Okay, 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:46.280 it's not a good name for it for not a 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:50.240 great invention, like an infinity pool that never ends, like 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:52.680 you can swim and swim forever. It looks as if 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:56.480 I just call him rich person. Pools. Yeah, not like 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:01.080 my above ground pool in the back the rust nator. Yeah, 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:07.040 the hick right next to the trampoline. Yeah, alright, I 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.680 think we've insulted enough people. Well that was a Simpsons reference. 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:16.760 Technically they insult and the hick um, Yes we did anyway, 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.200 So let's talk Shroud of turin Chuck, are you familiar? 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:23.200 What made you pick this the easter? No, it's just timing. 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:28.960 Although heck, that's great timing. Huh. Seriously, it wasn't it was. 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.240 To be honest, I was listening to an episode of 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.120 w TF with Mark Marin and he it's an older episode. 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.320 All of our ideas from Mark man I'm growing in 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:41.399 a stache. Well I've grown it. I'm just gonna shave 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:45.960 the beard. Uh. He was interviewing William Friedkin, the director, 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.760 and uh who. As it turns out, it's quite chatty. 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:52.760 Did he not stop talking the whole time? He talked 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.280 a lot. It was a really good interview. Well, yeah, 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.840 that's what you want out of an interviewee, yeah, sure, um. 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:02.200 But he saw all the shroud of turn in person, 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:06.000 and he described the experience and I thought, why haven't 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:09.720 we done one on that? That's pretty important. What was 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.639 his reaction to it? He he wept. So that's that's 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:15.400 actually something that's called Jerusalem syndrome. Yeah. He he was 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:19.239 incredibly move and he's not especially well. He talked a 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:23.240 lot about Jesus specifically, but said that he's not religious, 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.239 but he really has a thing for Jesus. But but 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:30.360 he doesn't identify as a Christian, but he really he 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:33.679 just is a big fan of Jesus. Jesus file Sure, 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.600 which is you know a lot of people like that. 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:41.200 I think, yeah, there's even um Messianic Jews Jews for 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.480 Jesus uh and apparently William Freed Kent I mean bio 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:50.800 because of the two categories Bill accounts Jesus the historical figure. 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:55.800 It's pretty stand up guy. Sure, you know, sure? And 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.960 I think, well, let's just stop dancing around this. Okay, 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:03.720 we're not a really just podcast. We're not. Every time 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:06.720 we've ever done in religious episode, we've gotten so much 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:10.440 blowback from every single thing we've gotten wrong that we're like, 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:14.800 our structure is not really set up to two podcasts 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:19.240 on religion very much. The Shroud of Turn is such 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:24.800 an interesting and contentious flash point where science and religion 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:29.440 meet and butt heads that we just couldn't possibly pretend 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.600 like it doesn't exist. It's too interesting. And I can 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.279 imagine that William Freakin wept when he saw the Shroud 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:37.400 of Turn. I would love to see the Shout of 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.800 Turn myself. Um, I don't. I have no idea what 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:43.720 my reaction would be, but I wouldn't be all that 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.160 surprised if I did weep when I saw it. Whatever 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:52.320 the Shout of Turn is, it is probably the most 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:57.960 venerated object in the world. Yeah, perhaps it's at least 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.760 among the top two or three. Take of me that, um, 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:04.760 and the idea that so many people look at this 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.840 thing with love and awe and amazement, that it's somehow 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:14.200 abuse it with the very stuff that they that it's 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.320 venerated for in some weird way. And I can imagine 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:21.120 that even as an atheist you would get hit by that. Well, 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:25.120 be to me like looking at a at a great 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.880 painting or something. Um, not to say that it is 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:29.760 a painting, even though some people say it is a painting, 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:32.240 which we'll get to. But you know what I'm saying, like, uh, 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.600 just moved by seeing the Mona Lisa, Yeah, or being 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.360 like I thought I was bigger than that. Yeah, I 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:39.920 was a little underwhelmed. Well, but that's the same thing 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.120 that Jerusalem syndrome. Typically happens when you go to a 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.840 very holy site in your overcome, but it can also 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.760 happen when you're looking at art as well. All Right, 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:51.560 it is a fifty if you don't know what it 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:55.000 is and you're hearing's go on and on about crying 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.120 t out of Turin, it is a fifty three square 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:02.880 foot piece of linen rectangle. I think it's about three 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.920 ft by four ft. Yeah, and it is, like I said, 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:12.840 herring bone twill uh, faint brownish image that uh when 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.480 we'll get into some of the more interesting finer points. 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:19.599 But when photographed the negative images is a very clear 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:22.960 image of a man, naked man with his arms folded 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:30.080 over his groin area, tastefully beard, mustache, shoulder length hair 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:33.760 parted in the middle um. And you know, looks like 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.599 that if you grew up in the Southern Baptist church. 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.279 Looks like that picture of Jesus hanging on the wall 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.359 that I grew up with, or your friend that you 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:46.440 went to that three eleven show back in Uh. And 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.960 there are stains in areas on the linen consistent with 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:56.000 crucifixion wounds. Yes, well, which we'll get to because it's 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:58.880 very important. All of this is I feel like we're 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.880 gonna be teasing this out throughout. Well, let's stop. Let's 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.760 start at the very beginning of all this. Okay, if 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.640 you're a believer and that the shot of turn is 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.440 a legitimate religious artifact, that is to say that Jesus 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:15.080 Christ was wrapped in it after his Christ buried in 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:20.280 it in Jurus, and that is indeed his image when 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:25.520 he died. He and this is Jesus we're talking about. 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:30.080 Still not William freaking right, He's still alive, right, is he? Yeah? 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:34.120 When Jesus died and was interred or in tombed, I'm sorry, 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:39.360 after three days, his apostles went and checked on him 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:43.800 and they found he wasn't there. He had ascended into heaven. 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:47.880 This just happened to be what we now celebrate as Easter. Yeah, 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:49.800 and a boy, really, this is going to come out 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:53.000 right around then, isn't it. Yeah? And Easter celebrates the 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:57.640 among Christians, the resurrection of Christ. After his death, he 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:01.080 dives Christified on Good Friday. He is found to be 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:06.240 have been resurrected up into Heaven on Easter Sunday. Jesus 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.680 wasn't there. His body was gone, but according to legend, 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:15.600 they found shrouds still there, his burial shroud. So the 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:19.720 idea is is that his burial shroud was taken out 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:24.120 of his tomb um and venerated from the get go 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:28.840 basically held on to so and moved from uh I 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:33.160 guess the from Jerusalem out to where did make its 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.080 second trip to believe. From there it went straight to 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:41.199 Turkey Constantinople and it was there for several hundred years. Right. 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:45.080 It was in the possession of some of the sultan's there. Yeah, 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.440 and then the Crusaders came along and said, we'll be 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:51.040 taking that and whatever else we want, and we're going 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.480 to move it to Athens, Greece. And it was there 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.719 um or actually I don't know if the Crusaders took it. 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:01.640 Maybe it'll smuggle out, but crusaders sacked the town. I 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:05.400 saw both. Well, the history is a bit murky until 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.760 the mid fourteenth century, right, it is so. And you 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:12.079 would think that if the Crusaders had taken it, they 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:14.520 would have taken it back to Europe because that's where 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.600 they hailed from. They wouldn't have taken it down to Athens, Greece. 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:22.720 But supposedly it's spent several centuries between the Crusades and 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:27.280 about the thirteenth century in Greece, and somehow, some way 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:31.040 it made its way to France, right, Yeah, a French night, 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:32.800 and I think this is where it gets a little 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:38.280 more solid and it's travels. Uh. Jeffroy de Charny de 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:42.880 Charny Um took it to France about thirty miles outside 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:47.920 of Paris, and um eventually it mounted it made his 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:52.200 way to its final home in Turin, Italy and where 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.880 it's been there ever since. Yeah, the cathedral of St. 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.120 John the Baptist is when it landed there, and it's 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:00.440 still there and you can go look at I think 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:03.240 it went on tour for a little while within the 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:08.040 last few years, right with van Halen. Uh. Yeah, it 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.480 was on display as a part of a traveling exhibit. 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.560 Was it traveling or was it just on display? In turn? Now, 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:17.160 I think it traveled but sprised. But here's what I'm 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:22.240 going on is William Friedkin's account. So I'm not sure, 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.960 but I do know that um more people saw it 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:30.600 in the last like few years than ever before, ever before, 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:35.400 very very recent times, because apparently, um, for many centuries 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.440 it was on public display. Yeah, you just have to 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:42.840 go to Turin, go into that church. Uh, and they would, 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.760 you know, probably ask you a serious questions before you entered, 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.680 right and as you exited, like what kind of fish 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:52.600 is this? That Jesus fish? Come on back? Uh. The 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.920 Catholic Church does not have an official stand on the 0:10:55.960 --> 0:11:01.679 authenticity of this shroud. But um, chump, uh Chope, Pope 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:06.840 John Paul the Chopster said, you know, we trust science 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:10.559 basically to keep studying this thing. Yeah. The church, um, 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:12.480 I think, used to have an official position on it 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:16.439 until I think around and they said, you know what, 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:21.360 whatever it is, we still believe that you Catholics or 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:25.000 Christians should venerate this thing because at the very least 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:30.040 it's symbolic of Christ suffering on the cross. Um. But 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:32.800 we're not gonna say either way. We're the Catholic Church, 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.560 thank you, good night. I think it's how and transmission. 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:41.200 That's how Pope Ball ended all of his speeches. Um, 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:42.719 all right, let's let's take a little break here. You 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.280 want to, yeah, and we'll talk a bit about the 0:11:46.320 --> 0:12:10.239 early science the shot turn. So Chuck, we were saying, um, 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:14.520 the shroud. As far as the Catholics are concerned, the 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:19.000 shroud didn't really exist until thirteen fifty three, when Geoffrey 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.280 de Charnay came up with it. Right, So that's the 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:25.000 beginning of its documented existence. That the Shroud of Turn 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:29.720 at least goes back on the record to thirteen fifty three, 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:31.959 which makes it pretty awesome in and of itself, right, 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.480 And for centuries and centuries people saw it, people looked 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:37.400 at it. I'm sure they kissed it and wept over 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.000 it and everything. And then it wasn't until the I 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:45.120 think the nineteenth century or at least the twentieth century 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:48.880 that it was really started to move out of public 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.440 display and started to be cared for and preserved a 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.040 little more, I think. And that's when science kind of 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:57.800 started to come around, specifically starting in right, Yeah, that 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.400 was the first. Like if you if you look at 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.760 just the regular image of the shroud of Turin, not 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:07.040 the negative photographic image, you know, you sort of see 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.080 an image of a person. But in like you said, 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.319 there was an amateur photographer in Italy name uh Second. 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.840 That means the second. He had an older sibling. He 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:22.280 took a picture. He was first though, No Primo that right. 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.640 If you're seeing Big Night, it's Stanley Tucci movie. Yeah, 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:29.280 Secondo and Primo. Yeah yeah, man, I won't see that again. 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.240 I haven't seen it since it was out. Have you 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.960 ever heard um that fam key Jansen? You know, the actress. 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.920 Does her name mean female or girl in Danish idea? 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.280 I think it might because that means her name is girl. 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.640 Jansen that's what her parents named her. If that's what 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:50.920 that means, all right, Sorry, that's okay. Um. So Secundo 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.840 took this photo. Um, when he was developing it, he 0:13:53.840 --> 0:14:00.120 saw the reverse negative and went, wow, Mama Mia. What 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:05.600 he saw was that much more clear image of a man, 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:08.800 of the likeness of a of a human being in 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.920 much more detail. He was accused of forgery, of course, 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.600 out of the gate. Uh, and I think wasn't fully 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.520 clear to like the nineteen thirties when more photographers did 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.120 the same thing, and they're like, it's just a negative image. 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:28.040 Let the guy up, yeah right, like this round. Yeah. 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.400 So this negative image really kicked off like an even 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:33.960 greater interest in the shroud of turn. I think up 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.040 to that point, um, people of science had just been 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:39.720 kind of like, yeah, yeah, sure, that's exactly what it is. 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.600 It looks definitely like a burial shroud. When they saw that, 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:49.520 though that that negative, it's really difficult to avoid the 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.920 fact that it is clearly the image of a man 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:58.000 like you described at the beginning. It's not Jesus on toast, No, 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:02.600 it's nott or on my the wall of the house 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:08.760 I'm demoing from, you know, or this grilled cheese. I met. Yeah, Um, no, 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:11.880 it's it is, and it's universally recognized as that. It's 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:14.800 not like it kind of looks like this, it's that's 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.600 that's what that is, so much so that um even 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:20.480 skeptics say, well, then it was just a painting or 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.520 something like that by some artists. But just like that 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:32.160 photographed by Secondo pia Um, we've our new techniques and 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.640 tricks and software that we use as far as photography 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:37.680 goes and images goes, is starting to unlock even more 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:42.320 weirdness of it too. Right, So if you take the 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:48.000 um the lightness and darkness patterns and turn them into 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:52.840 like three dimensions, it actually reveals very clearly the three 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:57.120 dimensional shape of a face, which is kind of surprising 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.680 because that would mean that if we're a painting, somebody 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:07.480 had to have painted on a face with just the 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.840 right amount of darkness in places where that would have 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:16.280 been closest to the cloth, and lighter amounts in places 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:18.240 that would have been further away from the cloth, so 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:20.120 that when you did look at it in this light 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.600 gradient map, it would appear in in perfect three To mention, 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:28.120 it's a bizarre little thing, don't you think for sure. Uh. 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:30.960 As far as real study, UM, it took all the 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:34.800 way until almost nineteen seventy nine, sixty nine, when scientists 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:40.080 could finally I mean for decades people had done um 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.760 what they call indirect analysis. So basically, you know, I'm 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.480 looking at it, and I'm thinking about it and I'm 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:49.760 talking about it. But as far as actually getting your 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:53.680 hands on it, it was nineteen sixty nine when um, 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.360 like you said that they needed to preserve this thing. 0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:00.360 So they brought in a team of of scientists us 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:02.680 to say, hey, how do we preserve this thing. We'll 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.800 let you touch it. And they all went, oh, that 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:12.800 sounds good to me. Uh so they formed the shroud. 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:17.120 We're always laughing about how the acronyms work out perfect. 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:19.720 This is not this is not that the Shroud of 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:25.000 Turn Research Project or stirp Uh. They had five days 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:29.480 of continuous access in ninety eight hours a day for 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:31.840 five days. Yeah, so this is nine years after the 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.960 first scientists were allowed to touch it. I guess they 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.359 formed this thing and they you know, of course, what 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.119 they did was it and say like all right, well 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.280 we'll work eight or nine hours a day, kick back 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:43.200 half some dinner and then sleep, get up to start 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.760 over eight course Italian meals. They split up into teams 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.200 so they could work non stop around the clock. They 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:52.240 had thirty three members from all over the spectrum of science, 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:57.600 twenty major research institutions, along with a team of European 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:00.480 scientists who observed. I guess they sat there with our 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:05.160 arms folded and just like you know, every ten minutes. 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.679 They were the ones that brought the good espresso. The 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.000 US led team, We're like, we don't know where you 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:12.760 get that around here, not the kind of espresso you 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.879 spit out into a napkin. Like what was that? It 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:21.679 was in Mulholland Drive when a great scene. Um so 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.959 here's what their report said, we need like a bombshell 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:34.639 effect here, okay, uh quote the shroud images that of 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:40.320 a real human form of a scourged, scourged, crucified man. Yeah, 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:44.400 a whip with like, um, several flays on the end 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:48.160 and and I think it has like um, like rocks 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.440 or something tied onto the end of the flaz It's 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.080 just terrible, very bad crucifixion. We we could do a 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.640 podcast on that. Yeah. You know something that I came 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:59.399 out of this research for me was do you have 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:03.000 to be a real s ob to crucify human being, 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:07.640 whether it's the son of God or some criminal criminal 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:12.440 whatever you should The idea that the Romans used to 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:16.119 do that is just it makes my ear blow. Torture 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:22.440 until you die, but it's the worst kind. Yeah. Um. 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.280 So they continue to say it is not the product 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.080 of an artist. Um. The blood stains are composed of 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:33.719 hemoglobin and also give a positive test for serum albuman 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:39.679 and um. Despite this, they said it is a mystery 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.840 because no combination of physical, chemical, biological or medical circumstances 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:48.000 can adequately adequately account for the image. Right. So that's 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:52.480 their official report from that first scientific inquiry, Yeah, published 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:56.320 and these definitely were men of science. But the Stirp 0:19:56.480 --> 0:20:01.520 team was also um and it's ill today has is 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:05.760 criticized for. Uh. I guess the way it's put is 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:10.640 there were a team of scientists believers, like they were 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.439 all legitimate scientists, but they also legitimately believed the shrouded 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.480 turn was the burial shroud of Christ that had been 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:23.000 some way or another miraculously imbued with Christ's image upon 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:25.439 his ascension to Heaven. Yeah, I get the feeling a 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:27.800 lot of this research is like, well, let's get a 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.320 team in here to debunk it. Let's get a team 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.760 in here to verify it, you know, right, And and 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:38.600 there were skeptics on the Stirp team, but they they 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:42.440 apparently didn't have as full access as the believers did, 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.560 and there there was a lot of like infighting and 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:49.760 backbiting among the team. But one thing that's universally agreed 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.399 on by the members of the team, skeptics and believers alike, 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:56.560 is that the Vatican itself did not try to influence 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.159 the outcome of these tests. At the very least back 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:02.679 in ninete yate they were willing to just say, hey, 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.400 whatever whatever you find is what you find. Um, we're 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:09.000 still gonna love the shroud, no matter what right I thought. 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:10.479 The thing you were going to say was. The one 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:12.000 thing they all agreed on was that those sturt t 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.760 shirts didn't really work out very well. They argued about 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.240 the name a lot, but the sturb team is still 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:20.600 their findings are still criticized, and one of the things 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.800 that's very much criticized is the idea that there's no 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:28.520 artificial pigments on the shroud and that the bloodstains are 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:34.920 actually blood for an alternative hypothesis or an alternative um examination. 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:38.879 There's a guy named Walter mcclun did you did you 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:43.960 run into him in the hallways? Very ironic. Well, he's 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.560 also very dead, so that's odd, but that happened. Should 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.520 have mentioned it was the ghost of Dr McCrone. McCrone, 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:52.960 that's so, I'm sorry, that's it. So Walter McCrone was 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:55.399 I was like, is this guy you know, is he legit? 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:59.720 He's probably the most legitimate scientist of the twentieth century. 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:05.120 Like he he published and edited a u a peer 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:11.879 reviewed journal on microscopy and microscopic investigation. It's called scop 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:18.439 this with an exclamation point. Um. He uh. It was 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.520 just he's a legitimate scientist, so let me just say that. 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:24.840 And he did some examination of the turn shroud and 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:28.399 he found, no, there's actually no blood on this at all. 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:31.840 And what you're what what looks to be blood is 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:36.440 actually red ochre pigment for million and then a temper 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:41.600 temper um binder. Yeah. And this was in the late seventies, 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:45.560 early eighties. And he said, um, basically he could account 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:48.160 for everything in there as something that would have been 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:54.960 in a paint from the fifties, whereas other folks have said, no, 0:22:55.080 --> 0:23:00.000 actually that iron in there, that's old hemoglobin. That's from 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:04.040 the hemoglobin, and he said, no, it's not. Yeah, he 0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:07.359 needn't bend. So the idea that that he did find 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:12.359 red ochre and vermilion pigment, you think, okay, well case 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:16.639 closed here, Like this is a great example of the 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:20.680 shroud of turin. It is not case closed. It's never 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:26.800 going to be case closed. Chemists, molecular biologists, geneticists, you 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:29.720 could throw every single scientist that you can possibly think 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:32.879 of at this thing, and they can find wherever they 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:35.520 want to find, And you're gonna have another team who 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:42.760 finds the other contrary findings. And neither group is going 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:46.280 to read one another's publications except the most hardcore people 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:49.399 carrying out these experience. But people like you and I 0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:52.679 have no idea whether wait, was there blood found on 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:55.960 it um? What were the findings about the red ochre. 0:23:56.160 --> 0:23:58.560 Did he just surmise that it was red ochre pigment 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:00.960 because he found all the stuff that makes up red 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:03.679 ochre pigment, or did he actually find red ochre pigment? 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:06.280 Like this is the kind of thing that keeps the 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:09.719 shot of turin a mystery. Well, yeah, I mean there 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:11.679 have been He's not the only one to have studied 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:13.280 whether or not it was blood. There have been other 0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:18.840 people that said, who's a Heller and Adler said, oh, 0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:22.000 it's blood, and it's it's a B blood type. Yes, 0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:24.400 we can even tell you that, and then someone else 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:27.840 would come along and say it's not blood, or if 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:30.399 it was, he certainly can't tell the blood type, or 0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:33.280 whether or not it's blood from the person who might 0:24:33.320 --> 0:24:35.600 have been wrapped in the shroud, or blood from someone 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:39.240 handling it, or animal blood. Yeah, there's a there's a 0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:43.359 big criticism of that that it was contamination from somebody 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:46.840 who was actually analyzing the samples, because well, as we'll 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:50.040 see later on, a lot of people touch this thing 0:24:50.080 --> 0:24:52.399 over the years, right, and then other skeptics point to 0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:54.800 it and say, dude, you can see it's not blood. 0:24:54.880 --> 0:24:59.160 That's not blood. Blood turns black or at least such 0:24:59.200 --> 0:25:02.600 such a dark, deep brown over the years that it 0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:05.719 looks black to the human eye. This looks like blood. 0:25:06.040 --> 0:25:08.240 That's not what blood looks like once it dries and 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:12.840 ages on cloth. So there's a lot of different arguments 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:18.119