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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio Zara Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: You know you know I'm just char dance and waiting

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Speaker 2: for you as I do these days.

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Speaker 3: I love it. I love a good shared dance. Listen. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know it's ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: I do. I've been Christmas shopping for you and it's

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Speaker 2: not easy to So I was looking up the James

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Speaker 2: Gardner's daughter was mentioning a cookbook almost got for you.

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Speaker 2: Then I was like, nah, she won't want this. It's

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Speaker 2: called the Cop Cookbook, The Cop. Yeah, and so it's

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Speaker 2: like it was about because you know, he played uh,

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Speaker 2: obviously Rockford files Garner, and then before that he was

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Speaker 2: also Philip Marlowe, so he'd played some detectives and then

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Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, so James Garner, you know, other than

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Speaker 2: taking on Raymond Chandler's memorable character and then playing uh,

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Speaker 2: the my favorite Jim Rockford. So they have this cake

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Speaker 2: recipe and I was like, oh. It was like I

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Speaker 2: was looking through it. I was like, what are they

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Speaker 2: got in there? And so I wanted to tell him

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Speaker 2: about this cake recipe. It's called Marlowe's Low Cholesterol Lemon Cake. Right,

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Speaker 2: So in the description, this is not like this is

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Speaker 2: older recipe books, so it's not like you get an

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Speaker 2: essay before.

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Speaker 3: You get the time a low cholesterol.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, late seventies case. So they have just like

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Speaker 2: one sentence or two sentences to describe the cake before

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Speaker 2: you get to the recipe, which is like old recipe

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Speaker 2: so wonderful. So the sentences are these. This is our

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Speaker 2: family's favorite cake, which was given to us by our

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Speaker 2: friend Seanna Treebert. It's made for every birthday and holiday

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Speaker 2: and it's always gone by morning, eaten by thieves in

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Speaker 2: the night. So my favorite part though, this is where

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Speaker 2: you get the low cholesterol. The first ingredient is non

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Speaker 2: stick cooking spray. The second ingredient is all purpose flour.

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Speaker 2: The third ingredient is one package of white cake mix. Wait,

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Speaker 2: and then it's like you get some vegetable oil, some waters,

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Speaker 2: mag whites, and vanilla extract, and then three ounce package

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Speaker 2: of sugar free lemon gelatin.

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Speaker 3: Stop. It is so Southern to use. I used to

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Speaker 3: try and collect all these like church cookbooks, because there

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Speaker 3: would have they would have stuff like this like Grandma's

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Speaker 3: something cake. Get one box of chocolate cake. No no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: But my all time favorite is. There was one recipe

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Speaker 3: in a church cookbook that I got when I lived

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Speaker 3: down in the South that was for Snicker biscuits.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that sounds good and ingredients.

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Speaker 3: You get one can of Pillsbury biscuits, like the kind

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Speaker 3: where you have to like pop it over violently pop open,

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Speaker 3: so you get those biscuits and then you get little

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Speaker 3: bite sized Snickers. The individually wrapped is the other ingredient,

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Speaker 3: and you shove it into the biscuit. Yeah, and then

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Speaker 3: wrap like the biscuit around it and bacon.

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Speaker 2: That's the recipe.

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Speaker 3: That's the recipes I came up with a Snicker biscuits.

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Speaker 2: Those are my favorite stoner Snickers biscuits.

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Speaker 3: What you need to doms you can't even forget it.

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Speaker 3: It was the crat Snicker biscuits.

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Speaker 2: So Grandma, oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: But any of these like family recipes that call for

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Speaker 3: box cake, Thick's amazing. And you know what, they are ridiculous?

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Speaker 2: You know it.

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Speaker 3: Do you want to know what else is ridiculous?

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Speaker 2: Please?

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Speaker 3: Stealing for stealing's sake? Oh oh, this is Ridiculous Crime

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Speaker 3: a podcast about absurd and outrageous capers. Hie cons. It's

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Speaker 3: always ninety nine percent murder free and one hundred percent ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: Damn.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I am.

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Speaker 2: Books, Elizabeth Books. I love books, books, books, McGee.

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Speaker 3: How many books do you think you own?

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Speaker 2: Hundreds and bordering into the low thousands.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, i'd say so. I don't have that many physical

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Speaker 3: copy books in my possession right now, Like I'd say

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Speaker 3: I probably have maybe around one hundred or so. Really, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: most of my are stored at my mom's house.

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Speaker 2: How many do you have there?

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Speaker 3: Well, her collection is like in the thousands. Yeah, i'd

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Speaker 3: probably go up to like fifteen hundred or something like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: she has a full library in the house. She means business.

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Speaker 3: I think it's safe to say that she reads like

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Speaker 3: four books a month.

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Speaker 2: That's good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Anyway, I have a ton of books on my kindle.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, I checked earlier today. I can't read off

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Speaker 3: nine hundred and seventy three damn my library. But I've

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Speaker 3: recently moved over to audible.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: So, because I have to wear glasses now both distance

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Speaker 3: and reading, and I'm miserable, so I like to visually

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Speaker 3: raw dog the world old. So I don't usually wear

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Speaker 3: my glasses at all, and the only time I always

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Speaker 3: wear them is when I'm driving.

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Speaker 2: Huh, well that's least responsible of you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Or it's like I have to read more than

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Speaker 3: like a paragraph. You put them on, I snap on

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Speaker 3: the specs because I'm so old anyway, I don't like

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Speaker 3: to do that. So I started listening to books.

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Speaker 2: Wait a minute, that's why.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I only have eighty four books on my audible

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Speaker 3: library right now.

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Speaker 2: I can't read books off of kindles, and I cannot

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Speaker 2: listen to books on Audible because I won't remember what

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Speaker 2: I hear. I have to like read them so I

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Speaker 2: can create. It is a problem. It is I can't

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Speaker 2: read where I'm not flipping pages. For some reason, I

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Speaker 2: really need the tactile feel.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I like the did I resisted the Kindle went

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Speaker 3: to it actually really liked it. And then I'm trying

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Speaker 3: to get into audible.

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Speaker 2: But how's it working for you?

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Speaker 3: I love it, but I do miss reading like actually

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Speaker 3: looking at I should probably put my glasses.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember the stories with the same vivid No,

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Speaker 2: that was quick.

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Speaker 3: But then, and I also don't remember the stories that

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Speaker 3: I read on hard.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember anything anymore.

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Speaker 3: No, I remember who are you? So what's my point?

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Speaker 3: My point? Is that we love books. We both love

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Speaker 3: we've both written books. It's true, yep books. I told

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Speaker 3: you stories about book.

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Speaker 2: Criminals before you have I have a book.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna do it again today. Son. Yeah, so I

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Speaker 3: have a book thief. But he's unusual, so I usually

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Speaker 3: I actually don't think there's a typical book thief.

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Speaker 2: I was wondering about that.

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Speaker 3: They're a weird lot, but this guy is even outside

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Speaker 3: of that to some extent. He's kind of like our

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Speaker 3: man John Gilkey, who was pursued by biblio Dick Ken Sanders.

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Speaker 3: This guy he wasn't into the thefts as a means

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Speaker 3: of enriching his bank account.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so he wasn't going for high dollar.

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Speaker 3: Books, and he didn't do it for the money.

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Speaker 2: Looking for delicious books. Is he like eating them?

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Speaker 3: No, he did it for the love of books.

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Speaker 2: No, m giving the game.

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Speaker 3: But he didn't do it in the way that Guilkey

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Speaker 3: did it because remember, like Guilkey wanted rarities, first editions,

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Speaker 3: and he wanted to build like this impressive library, so

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Speaker 3: something that someone important would have, like someone accomplished. The

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Speaker 3: guy I'm going to tell you about today. He also

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Speaker 3: stole books, but He didn't do it to sell them

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Speaker 3: and make money. It was for the love of the books,

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Speaker 3: but also for what they meant, And in his case,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't the glamour or the power of a fine library.

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Speaker 3: It was the symbol of access. Oh so I'm curious,

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Speaker 3: zaren close your eyes. No, I'm not messing. You really

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Speaker 3: are close them. I want you to picture it.

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Speaker 2: Don't yell it.

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Speaker 3: It's January fifth, twenty twenty two. You are a customs

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Speaker 3: agent at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York City.

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Speaker 3: Before you is a long line of travelers eager to

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Speaker 3: get their passport stamped, passed through your kiosk, and head

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Speaker 3: out into the US of A. Some chat with each other,

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Speaker 3: All of them seemed exhausted from their travels and flummixed

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Speaker 3: by the long line ahead of them. Some looked longingly

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Speaker 3: over at the global entry area. No line, just the

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Speaker 3: occasional traveler breezing through with no asshole. The airport speaker's

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Speaker 3: broadcast announcements in a calm tone, calm yet unintelligible. A

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Speaker 3: baby cries at the far end of the line, and

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Speaker 3: in a silence, with gentle whispers from his mother. You

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Speaker 3: look at the line in front of you, a woman

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Speaker 3: with a messy updo, a chic yet casual outfit and

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Speaker 3: a roller suitcases up next. You raise your hand to

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Speaker 3: waver forward, and she approaches your counter. You run through

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Speaker 3: your usual questions. What is the purpose of your visit tourism?

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Speaker 3: I'm actually here to go shopping. How long will you

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Speaker 3: be staying? Ten days, she tells you. Where will you

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Speaker 3: be staying at the Ace hotel? You look down at

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Speaker 3: a British passport. Do you have anything to declare? Not

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Speaker 3: a thing?

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Speaker 1: Love?

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Speaker 3: She says? What do you do for a living? I'm

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Speaker 3: an interior designa, she says, with a smile. Have you

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Speaker 3: been to the US before? Many times? She says, I

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Speaker 3: love it here. You stay up for passport and wave

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Speaker 3: her through. She thanks you and heads out to the

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Speaker 3: waiting city. You look up and see the next man

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Speaker 3: in line. You look down at the portion of your

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Speaker 3: desk that runs under the counter out of you with

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Speaker 3: the travelers, there are a few photos of people for

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Speaker 3: whom you are to be on the lookout. You compare

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Speaker 3: one of the photos to the man standing in line.

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Speaker 3: That's him. You press a button on the corner of

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Speaker 3: your desk and then wave the man forward. He approaches

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Speaker 3: your desk and slides his passport to you europe Republic Passaporto.

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Speaker 3: You flip it open, Filippo Bernardini. You look him in

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Speaker 3: the eye. He seems calm. You clear your throat, and

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Speaker 3: you're about to ask him the purpose of his visit

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Speaker 3: when he is suddenly flanked by FBI agents. They quietly

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Speaker 3: tell him to take his passport come with them. So wait, zaren,

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Speaker 3: that's the climax of the story.

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Speaker 2: I gave it away, yes, wondering, I let you know.

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Speaker 3: The story before everyone else got a chance. Actually, I

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Speaker 3: was using a literary tech.

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Speaker 2: What is that?

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Speaker 3: I have a degree in this? There and mess with me.

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Speaker 3: I know what I'm doing. Let's go back to the beginning. Oh,

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Speaker 3: I'm already gripped, so Filippo Bernardini.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Philip Phil, Hey, phil phil Phil.

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Speaker 3: He grew up in Italy, m surprise. He was a

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Speaker 3: lonely child. He was shy with drawn. Books were a

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Speaker 3: refuge for him, so they gave him companionships, structure, meaning

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Speaker 3: and reading friends. Friends. Reading wasn't just a hobby, it

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Speaker 3: was how he learned to feel connected to something larger

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Speaker 3: than himself.

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Speaker 2: Aimes be like, you know, the cigar rollers in Cuba.

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Speaker 2: He gets paid to read stories, like maybe he had

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Speaker 2: like a grandfather who's like, I give him a couple

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Speaker 2: of quarters, he reads me a book. Yeah, for his

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Speaker 2: job as a child.

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Speaker 3: For them, I mean, I get it. I was a

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Speaker 3: child bookworm because books were often far more interesting than

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Speaker 3: my peers.

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Speaker 2: Oh you know I read yeah a kid. I used

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Speaker 2: to a lot of pizza in the reading context.

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Speaker 3: Exactly Slade. So this attachment to books shaped his ambitions.

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Speaker 3: So he pursued education and work that would like put

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Speaker 3: him near literature, not as a writer or creator, just

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Speaker 3: someone like in proximity to it all in the reflected glory.

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Speaker 3: He wanted access. He wanted to be part of the

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Speaker 3: world that books came from before they reached the public.

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Speaker 3: So on LinkedIn, he said he had a quote obsession

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Speaker 3: for the written word in languages, and according to his

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Speaker 3: profile on there, he got his bachelor's in Chinese language

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Speaker 3: from the University in Milan. He said he also served

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Speaker 3: as the Italian translator for the Chinese comic book author

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Speaker 3: Rau Pingrew's memoir Our Story. He then got a master's

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Speaker 3: in publishing from University College London and on the site

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Speaker 3: he said his passion was ensuring quote books can be

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Speaker 3: read and enjoyed all over the world and in multiple languages.

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Speaker 3: This is so true, they really can't.

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Speaker 2: It's a great thing about books.

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Speaker 3: The thing about books read can be read all over

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Speaker 3: the world. So by the early to mid like twenty

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Speaker 3: tens of twenty teens, he had he got a job

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Speaker 3: in the publishing industry in the UK. He worked as

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Speaker 3: a rights coordinator for the British branch of Simon and Schuster.

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Speaker 3: It's a big, big publisher. His role put him inside

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Speaker 3: like a legitimate corporate structure, gave him daily exposure to

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Speaker 3: the mechanics of global publishing.

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Speaker 2: He's looking at all those arcs and manuscripts at the published.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so a rights coordinator is not like a junior assistant,

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Speaker 3: but it's also not central to editorial decision making. So

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Speaker 3: it means like managing foreign rights communications. He would track

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Speaker 3: licensing agreements, coordinate with all like international partners, had to

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Speaker 3: have like a really good attention to detail, discretion, and

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Speaker 3: like constant email correspondence with agents, editors and rights professionals.

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Speaker 3: So it provided visibility into the movement of manuscripts without

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Speaker 3: granting authority or access to them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not changing any words, right.

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Speaker 3: So basically he was positioned at the edge of the

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Speaker 3: manuscript pipeline. He's talking about manuscripts, but he's not actually

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Speaker 3: seeing them. He could see when books were being discussed, shopped,

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Speaker 3: prepared for foreign sales. He can see the names of editors, agents,

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Speaker 3: scouts who were like exchanging early drafts, but he wasn't

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Speaker 3: in those exchanges. So over time he starts to feel

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Speaker 3: really excluded, and he's like, this is even more than

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Speaker 3: just like professional hierarchy. This is a personal slight soelt

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Speaker 3: he felt invisible, he felt undervalued. Zerum he believed that

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Speaker 3: access to manuscripts represented belonging itself. So without it, he's like,

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Speaker 3: you know what, I'm not really a part of publishing.

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Speaker 3: I'm just on the And so he's like, you know what,

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Speaker 3: I want to check that right now. If you're in

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Speaker 3: this position, how would you change that?

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Speaker 2: Get a new job, could work in a bookstore, I

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Speaker 2: don't know what would you do?

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Speaker 3: Well, a lot of publishing is who you know.

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Speaker 2: Definitely, and also how many followers.

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Speaker 3: Do you have on Well, there's that, like there's some

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Speaker 3: some people are able to make their way in the

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Speaker 3: in the industry through like sheer displays of talent and acumen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's getting refer and uer for most of its network.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's like that's honestly so much it's how

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Speaker 3: people get ahead. I mean, I know that's true of

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Speaker 3: a lot of industries, but I am blown away by

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Speaker 3: how outsized that is when it comes to publishing.

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Speaker 2: Well, so it's much like Hollywood. They're more and more

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Speaker 2: risk averse, more and more being counters have gotten involved,

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Speaker 2: and now they want to have a book that's going

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Speaker 2: to sell really well the first month, and you don't

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Speaker 2: get like what's come girl with her book Conto that's

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Speaker 2: sold like nineteen hundred copies after they pushed out of it.

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Speaker 3: So whoever, it's such a cancer.

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Speaker 2: Right, whoever signed Olivia Notzi her contract for that book,

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Speaker 2: their whole career he's got foreshortened because some people don't

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Speaker 2: want that. They don't want to be the one who

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Speaker 2: brought Tanto to the.

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Speaker 3: Market exactly exactly. So like here you've got Bernadini right,

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Speaker 3: like he he's a guy who loves books, but he

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Speaker 3: doesn't come from like a literary family with connections. He

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Speaker 3: doesn't have school connections, because that's what I found is

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Speaker 3: another thing like that makes a big difference in the

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Speaker 3: publishing induto. And he's not like a hustler in terms

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Speaker 3: of schmoozing and getting to know all the right people

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Speaker 3: and positioning himself to move up the ladder.

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Speaker 2: And then he doesn't have like the Italian equivalent of

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Speaker 2: the University of Iowa's like workshops.

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Speaker 3: It's like exactly, oh my gosh, exactly. But he wants more,

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Speaker 3: and so he came up with a plan. He was

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Speaker 3: gonna be sneaky. He was going to fool people.

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Speaker 2: I'm listening, He's going to.

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Speaker 3: Get what he wanted. Go for access. Let's take a break,

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Speaker 3: we come back access Zaren, Elizabeth Saren, Philippe Berndi great name.

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Speaker 3: But Phil Bernandi, Phil Barry, Phil Bernie, Bernie, Phil burn

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Speaker 3: Burns unlikely criminal very much. So here he is here,

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Speaker 3: he is Phil working and publishing, which had been his dream.

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Speaker 3: But once he's in it, he looks around, He's like, wait,

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Speaker 3: I'm still an outsider. How did this happen? He didn't

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Speaker 3: get to have his finger on the pulse of the industry.

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Speaker 3: He didn't get to see the books as they were

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Speaker 3: ushered through the process from hand to hardback.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a cog far from the action.

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Speaker 3: Yes, everyone around him knew about the big hits way

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Speaker 3: before they went to the stores. They'd already read them.

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Speaker 3: They were miles ahead. He wanted that. So instead of

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Speaker 3: using his crafty brain to maneuver himself into the area

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Speaker 3: of publishing where he.

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Speaker 2: Could be that guy, Yeah it would be possible.

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Speaker 3: No, he tried something else. Around August of twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 3: he started constructing this like multi year scheme. He was

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Speaker 3: going to steal manuscripts, and not like in a cool

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Speaker 3: Nicholas cageway. No, he was stealing the books before they

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Speaker 3: became real books. He didn't want to steal the stories

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Speaker 3: or like shop him as his own. He wasn't going

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Speaker 3: to sell them. He just wanted to get his hands

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Speaker 3: on the currency of his dream industry. He just wanted

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Speaker 3: to feel the books, not even feel the digitals.

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Speaker 2: Not even getting like he's got the scent of new paper.

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Speaker 3: So basically he came up with like a multi layered

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Speaker 3: cyber impersonation campaign.

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Speaker 2: Phil.

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Speaker 3: He built it to exploit weaknesses in the publishing world's

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Speaker 3: very informal practices. So the publishing industry relies really heavily

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Speaker 3: on email. Communication is real between authors, agents, editors, and scouts,

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Speaker 3: and so pre publication manuscripts are typically circulated by like

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Speaker 3: trusted individuals, but they are not elaborate security protocols.

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00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,360
Speaker 2: No, they're attachments and emails exactly.

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Speaker 3: Hopefully a PDF, sometimes a word doc. So Bernardini built

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Speaker 3: his own infrastructure that mimicked this trust network. So first

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00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:23,000
Speaker 3: we're spoofed domains. He registered domains that were nearly identical

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Speaker 3: to actual publishers and literary agencies. His techniques fell into

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Speaker 3: three major categories. First was character substitution. So let's say

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Speaker 3: the actual website is, you know, realdomain dot com, right,

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00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,320
Speaker 3: so heat registered real door nain dot com. So making

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Speaker 3: instead of having M use RN so it looks with

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Speaker 3: bad Kurning or whatever, quick reading or r EAI domains,

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Speaker 3: so instead of an L, put a lowercase I. The

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Speaker 3: most common substitutions were M became RN, RN became M

350
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Speaker 3: was his zero AE, that kind of stuff, so really

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Speaker 3: subtle changes that bypassed casual visual scrutiny, and we're like

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Speaker 3: really effective because most people don't look at email headers.

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Speaker 3: You just skim it or you see their name and

354
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Speaker 3: then like it's you know, peripherally.

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Speaker 2: Oh and also if you're doing like typos, you wouldn't

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Speaker 2: notice if he had one that's just one letter away

357
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 2: on the on the.

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Speaker 3: Keyboard, right exactly. So so that's where the emails are

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00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,239
Speaker 3: coming from. These these websites that have you know, these

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00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 3: these domain names. Then there was top level domain variations.

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Speaker 3: So let's say that the legitimate website is publishername dot com.

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Speaker 3: The spoof is publisher name dot co or org or US.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes he would add or remove a country code to

364
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Speaker 3: like mimic multinational imprints. And then the third thing was hyphenation.

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Speaker 3: So let's say that you had a literary agency, the

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Speaker 3: Burnett Agency, okay, and your website is Burnett Agency dot com. Right,

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Speaker 3: Bernardini would register Burnette hyphenagency dot com or agency hyphen

368
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 3: Burnett dot com or like the Burnet Agency, right and

369
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 3: like but putting these hyphens in, and so it would

370
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 3: like mimic these naming styles used across international publishing. He

371
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,760
Speaker 3: made fake sites that looked plausible even to industry insiders.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So with the fake sites came fake email accounts.

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Speaker 3: He configured email accounts under real employee names. So a

375
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Speaker 3: lot of the spoofed emails contained copied signatures and formatting

376
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Speaker 3: that he took from legitimate correspondence. Okay, and then he

377
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,200
Speaker 3: timed requests to coincide with like natural publishing workflows, so

378
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,879
Speaker 3: like right before the Frankfurt or London book fairs. So

379
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,440
Speaker 3: manuscript exchanges are increasing, Totally, a lot of authors and

380
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 3: agents expect manuscripts to be sent around constantly, and so

381
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Speaker 3: these emails they don't raise suspicions.

382
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Speaker 2: Not at all.

383
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 3: So who's the targeting's errant.

384
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Speaker 2: And also who's really good? Who in the criminals sense

385
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 2: of things. Yeah, you would not think criminals would be

386
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 2: doing this, So it just so beneath the page.

387
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 3: Your everyday work, you don't think twice about these things. Yeah,

388
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,639
Speaker 3: so the targets, right, He's focusing on individuals who control

389
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 3: unpublished content. In that literary pipeline, authors were the main one, well,

390
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 3: especially those with like upcoming high profile releases, so debut

391
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 3: authors also they're more likely to quickly cooperate with requests

392
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Speaker 3: from industry professionals.

393
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Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't know it's a standard or totally.

394
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:32,680
Speaker 3: I guess I got to send it again to this

395
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 3: guy so like they fell for it. He'd usually contact

396
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 3: authors directly with like this urgent or super friendly tone,

397
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 3: like hey, can you send me the latest draft for

398
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,479
Speaker 3: evaluation purposes, like just really quickly. So then we got

399
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 3: the agents. Okay, agents are always sharing manuscripts with scouts

400
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 3: and editors, so he exploited it by impersonating scouts or

401
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,440
Speaker 3: editors requesting material from agents, and they would love to comply,

402
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,119
Speaker 3: Oh totally, And they've got such a high volume of

403
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,120
Speaker 3: email that they get, so they're just like, yeah, yeah,

404
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 3: let me just clear this send it off. Plus as

405
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 3: you're saying like, oh yeah, I want to sell this thing,

406
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 3: and a lot of agents work with international scouts, like

407
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 3: on a daily basis, and so they're constantly forwarding stuff

408
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 3: to maintain deal momentum. So then you know they were

409
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 3: Obviously we'd have the editors coming in there. They're exchanging

410
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 3: manuscripts with colleagues and with translators, and he impersonated both.

411
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 3: So editors were targets because they have access to the

412
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 3: earliest version of major works, and they share drafts widely

413
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 3: for acquisitions or foreign rights, and they're really used to

414
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 3: getting like dozens of manuscript requests during peak publication periods

415
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 3: they get overwhelmed. And then lastly, we have the literary scouts.

416
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 3: So these are people they work between agents and publishers

417
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 3: to identify promising books, and they maintain these databases of

418
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 3: pre publication intelligence. So Bernardini's most sophisticated attacks involved Scouts

419
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 3: because the scouts held confidential project lists. That's what he

420
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 3: wanted an access to. So they're the keepers of the coolness,

421
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 3: like as far as he's concerned, literal gatekeepers exactly. They

422
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 3: track international deals, translation rights, and he found that their

423
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 3: staff tend to reuse similar passwords across company systems and

424
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 3: like that's all offices really, but like he noticed in particular,

425
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 3: so this is the group whose credentials he successfully phished

426
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 3: using a fake site, Like he unlocked access to internal

427
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 3: communication archives. So from twenty seventeen to twenty nineteen he

428
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 3: expanded his operation. He was really methodical about it. He

429
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 3: registered dozens of spoofed domains and it just kept growing

430
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 3: and growing until he had more than one hundred and

431
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 3: sixty websites. Each one was impersonating a legitimate organization, that's incredible,

432
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 3: and each email impersonated a real person and like manuscripts

433
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 3: are just flowing in draft novels, non fiction proposals, early

434
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 3: versions of books that would later become major releases.

435
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 2: Can you imagine his like organizational stuff on his computer.

436
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: He has all this wrapped out, like the files.

437
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 3: He would download all of it and store them privately,

438
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 3: like on his home computer. Didn't steal them, but there's

439
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 3: no evidence he never shared them with anyone else. He

440
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 3: did nothing with them beyond possession. He didn't try and

441
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 3: sell them, He didn't upload them anywhere, did not try

442
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 3: and like exploit the market value. He wasn't trying to

443
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 3: pirate them. Yeah, he just wanted to have this, stole

444
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 3: them to steal them. So who did he target?

445
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: Who are the writers he liked, not like you know,

446
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 2: what do you call grocery store authors like Scott Trow.

447
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 3: Okay, so they're like the government hasn't released like a

448
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 3: full list of victims, but there are some that we

449
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 3: do know that he got. So Margaret Atwood really she

450
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 3: publicly confirmed that a manuscript of hers had been stolen

451
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 3: by him. It was the draft for The Testaments, which

452
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 3: is the sequel to The Handmaid's Tale. Okay, and at

453
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 3: the time it's you know, obviously unpublished. She later wrote

454
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,719
Speaker 3: about the experience, and she described it as deeply unsettling,

455
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 3: and she emphasized, well, she said the theft wasn't just

456
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 3: like technical, but personal, and she said early drafts are

457
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 3: private and vulnerable. Oh yeah, And so knowing that like

458
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 3: an unknown individual out there and unsubbed had obtained one

459
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 3: really distressed her, even though like the manuscript was never

460
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 3: leaked beyond him. There's this writer, James Hannahem. He told

461
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 3: The New York Times, quote, you feel violated. I don't

462
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 3: want anyone to know how bad the early drafts of

463
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 3: things are.

464
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 2: Oh wow, writers pride you think about it.

465
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 3: Think about early draft when you're like I just barfed

466
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 3: this out here and I haven't tinkered with it.

467
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 2: I want someone to kind of tell me how the

468
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 2: flow is.

469
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 3: And you look back at it. Oh my god, I

470
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 3: get published totally, totally. So other titles scammed such a

471
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 3: fun Age by Kylie Read, the Sign for Home by Fell,

472
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 3: A Bright Ray of Darkness by Ethan Hawke, Wow, and

473
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 3: Hush by Dylan Farrow.

474
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: Wow.

475
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. So there were unsuccessful attempts.

476
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 2: There were a lot of them.

477
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 3: In fact, he was swinging for the fences with one

478
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen. So March first, twenty seventeen, this book

479
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 3: publisher in Sweden gets a weird email A colleague in

480
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 3: Venice vints. Yeah, wanted access to a top secret document.

481
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 3: It was the unpublished manuscript of the fifth book in

482
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 3: Steve Larsen's Millennium series.

483
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 2: I was a gun, a guest said Sweden.

484
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 3: I figured, so, you know, those are the ones about

485
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 3: Elizabeth Salander, the Girl with the Dragon tattoo. Those books

486
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 3: have sold more than one hundred million copies.

487
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 2: World where they were huge. But then that was when

488
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: he was still like, people were going, is there going

489
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: to be another book?

490
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 3: Well, no, this is because it's the fifth, right, So

491
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 3: Steve Larson he passed away after the first three. Yeah,

492
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 3: at this point, yeah, and then there's this other Swedish author,

493
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 3: David lagger Crowns. He continued the series if.

494
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: He had notes in it, everything for it.

495
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 3: Right, the fifth book, The Man who Chased His Shadow,

496
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 3: was going to like expected to be a blockbuster. It's

497
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: gonna be huge, and everyone was trying to keep a

498
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 3: lid on it. The author lager Kronz. He wrote his

499
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 3: first extension of the series, the book four, on a

500
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 3: computer that wasn't even hooked up to the Internet. Because

501
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 3: remember there was so much secrecy around the whole series.

502
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 3: He printed every well, there were all these conspiracy theories

503
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 3: after Larsen died.

504
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: And behind how much is this going to be actually

505
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 2: his book?

506
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this lager Crowns he printed everything out and

507
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 3: delivered it by hand to the publisher and it felt

508
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 3: a little excessive for the fifth book. They're like, you

509
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 3: know what I think, Like, you know, we can probably

510
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 3: figure something out, like for the love of God, dude, right,

511
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 3: So the publisher was like, there has to be a

512
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 3: secure digital way to do this, so they asked around.

513
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 3: They found out about hush mail, which is an encrypted

514
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 3: email service and it has like two factor authentication.

515
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 2: A disappearing email.

516
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 3: No everyone involved has to sign an NDA. So this

517
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 3: weird email from the lady in Venice, Francesca Varoto. She's

518
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: an Italian edition editor, so she supposedly wrote to the

519
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 3: publisher Darre, Linda and Catherine. I hope you're well. Could

520
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 3: you please resend me the link to the manuscript of

521
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 3: the Man who Chased His Shadow. Thank you best, Francesca.

522
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 3: So then like the literary agent for this got basically

523
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 3: the same message, which is, this is crazy. How could

524
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 3: someone lose the link for something so important? It be

525
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 3: so flippant about it. It sounds like a Valley Girl

526
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 3: when she's in Venice, Italy. So like, while everyone's thinking

527
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 3: like that's kind of weird, she emails again and was like,

528
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 3: I need new log in credentials. It's not that I

529
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 3: don't even have the link, Like I think my mind

530
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 3: has expired. So can you just give me a new

531
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 3: log in?

532
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 2: I've lost everything.

533
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 3: So another employee at the publisher sent an email asking

534
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 3: if everything's okay, just like a fresh email, not responding

535
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 3: to the chain. Phone immediately rings. It's yeah, She's like,

536
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 3: what are you talking about? I have not sent you

537
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 3: anything and I did not lose my login. So everyone

538
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 3: goes back to the original weird emails, and Varoto noticed

539
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 3: that the signature on the fake email had her old

540
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 3: job title on it.

541
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: I was wondering also if she had like an old

542
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: signature where it's like I don't even use that quote anymore.

543
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 3: The quotes and the signatures goupless, Why I feel so inspired? No,

544
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 3: it was like she had gotten a promotion like two

545
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 3: months prior, and so they you know, it was like

546
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 3: the subject line also misspelled the name of her company,

547
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 3: a little problem there, and the domain on the email

548
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,239
Speaker 3: address was wrong Instead of dot it at the end

549
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 3: for Italy, it was dot com. So they all got

550
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 3: nervous that maybe the emails had like a trojan horse

551
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 3: in them or something, so they deleted them, and then

552
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 3: Veroto's IT guys they found that the fake dot com

553
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 3: domain had been created the day before, and it was

554
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: registered to an address in Amsterdam and had this Dutch

555
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 3: phone number. One of the IT guys calls it and

556
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 3: it goes straight to voicemail. Thank you for calling IBM.

557
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 3: Really yeah, which I would just be like, okay, this

558
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 3: is some girl with the dragon tattoo stuff. Yeah, like

559
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 3: I'd be, you know, freaking out.

560
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: I'm dealing with packers. Yeah.

561
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 3: Everyone involved in the book felt like they were suddenly

562
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 3: under attack, Like how else would this person try and

563
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 3: infiltrate their systems to get their hands on the manuscript?

564
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 2: North Korea?

565
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, like they're does like red siren lights or you know,

566
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: they're running and like close the doors, close the blinds.

567
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 3: This is going to ruin the whole book, release, the

568
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: world tour. But nothing else what tour the world tour,

569
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 3: but nothing else happened. Manuscript wasn't leaked, the book came

570
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 3: out as planned. So in July of TWI though, like Bernardini,

571
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 3: he's like, I gotta up my game. He escalates his methods.

572
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 3: He created a fake website that replicated the log in

573
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 3: portal of a real literary scouting firm. The design was

574
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 3: like identical.

575
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 2: You think he can take these skills and get a

576
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 2: new job, one.

577
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 3: Would think, one would think. So he sent emails like

578
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 3: directing employees to log in, and he captured their credentials

579
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 3: in the process, and then about like twenty users entered

580
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 3: their usernames and passwords.

581
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 2: So he did like a phishing campaign.

582
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, like please log into the website and they're like okay,

583
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: you go. So now he's got the credentials, he gets

584
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 3: unauthorized access to all these internal databases that had confidential

585
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: industry information, so like manuscript tracking grids, all the acquisition notes,

586
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 3: internal correspondence, and then all the attachments and so this

587
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 3: let him see which manuscripts were circulating, who had access,

588
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 3: where they were heading next. So he uses all this

589
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 3: information and he starts sending emails that referenced specific projects

590
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 3: or submission stages or like the editorial conversations. So he's

591
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 3: impersonating colleagues with like incredible accuracy, and he's referencing information

592
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 3: that only insiders would know. He's no longer guessing it stuff,

593
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: and so he's navigating this ecosystem from within. Still, no

594
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 3: manuscripts are leaked, and so this phase like accounts for

595
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 3: a large portion of the stolen manuscripts. This is when

596
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 3: he's just like he's like threw the net out into

597
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 3: the fish ridge water.

598
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: Very specific one too, and prosecutors later.

599
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 3: Estimated the number that he pinched at more than a thousand. Damn, Sean,

600
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 3: it's a lot of books, myan, dude, let's stop and

601
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 3: think about that. I want you to think about it, Zaren.

602
00:32:48,680 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 3: And when we return, we're going to go to the airport, Zaren.

603
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 3: Elizabeth Zavin, are you reading a book right now?

604
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: Yes, so good. That's what I was. I was flipping

605
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: through a book. You can see here in my hands.

606
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: The book I'm reading is that Daniel Steele. So we've

607
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 3: got Philippo Bernetti really putting you know, the heat on

608
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 3: that one.

609
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 2: That was good. He's putting a lot English on that

610
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 2: Italian name.

611
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 3: Phil Burnos. He's a book nerd extraordinaire.

612
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: Have you on the extraordinary?

613
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 3: This is a guy who wants to know all the

614
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 3: spoilers parents right, like he's doing so.

615
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: Much, so much worse, such a little payoff. Yes, yes,

616
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: I hope he was giving him the feeling he wanted

617
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 2: to think.

618
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 3: So by twenty twenty, there were like subtle signs of

619
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 3: the fraud that's surfacing, Like some authors and agents started

620
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 3: to notice the unusual email variations and like messages that

621
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 3: you know came from familiar people but like slightly altered addresses,

622
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 3: and like sometimes they get the same request twice from

623
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 3: like nearly identical senders.

624
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 2: So or like maybe they're dealing with that editor and

625
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 2: some other recent exchange.

626
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then all of a sudden, it's like, wait,

627
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 3: we just talked. So in late twenty twenty, Publisher's Marketplace

628
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 3: announced that Little Brown would be publishing a novel called

629
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 3: re Entry, and it was written by James Hannaham, who

630
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 3: I quoted earlier. It was about a transgender woman paroled

631
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 3: from a men's prison, and the editor for the book

632
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 3: was announced as Ben George So. Two days after this

633
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 3: announcement comes out in publisher's marketplace. Hannaham gets an email

634
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 3: from the editor Ben George. The editor is asking for

635
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 3: the latest draft of the manuscript, so hannahem. He has

636
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 3: a website and on it is an email contact link,

637
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 3: and that's where the email went, not to his usual account,

638
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 3: so he didn't think anything of it. He just opened

639
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 3: his regular email account and sent off the docum. Then

640
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 3: his phone rings, it's the editor. He's like, I didn't

641
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 3: send you any email asking for this. So like everyone's

642
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 3: starting to get like they're whispering about this. It's because

643
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 3: weird things are happening. Penguin, Random House and Simon and

644
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: Schuster his own employer, two of the biggest publishers. They

645
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 3: sent out warnings about the scam to staff, so he

646
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 3: had to have gotten that email.

647
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they can.

648
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 3: See that there's like this fraud store at work, but

649
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 3: they can't figure out exactly who they are, like what

650
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 3: they want why.

651
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And also nothing's ever coming out. There's no damage

652
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 2: being done to the authors or the companies.

653
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 3: That's so according to Reeves Wideman.

654
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: And this is also before like AI stuff, so you

655
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: wouldn't be like saying they're worried that they're using this

656
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: to train their large language.

657
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, exactly this New York Magazine article quote. Some

658
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 3: in publishing were beginning to question whether manuscripts were even

659
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 3: the end goal. How else to explain why the thief

660
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 3: would want sample pages of Bong June Ho's Parasite Storyboards

661
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 3: and a ten page book proposal for Michael J. Fox Memoir.

662
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 3: After a rights manager in Germany got hit, she speculated

663
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 3: that a security company was stress testing publishers in the

664
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 3: hopes of later selling them protective software.

665
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 2: That's an interesting theory.

666
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, several friends I spoke to who considered themselves the

667
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 3: good kind of hackers, so this sounded like a Cybergang's

668
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 3: training program. The stakes were low, the targets weren't especially

669
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 3: tech savvy, and there was a deliverable target, the manuscript

670
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 3: that a new recruit could bring home before moving on

671
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 3: to stealing login credentials from employees at a nuclear reactor.

672
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 3: In the wake of North Korea's alleged leaking of emails

673
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 3: from Sony Pictures, could this be another attempt to destabilize

674
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 3: Western culture? Dramatic perhaps, but then again, I had found

675
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 3: nearly two hundred companies in more than thirty countries that

676
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 3: the thief had impersonated, and none of them was Russian. Damn.

677
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 3: So it's just it's so widespread.

678
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 2: That's a really big nets two hundred companies, yes countries.

679
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 3: So then the story hits the New York Times in

680
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 3: December of twenty twenty. They wrote, quote, whoever the thief is,

681
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 3: he or she knows how publishing works and has mapped

682
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 3: out the connections between authors and the constellation of agents,

683
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 3: publishers and editors who would have access to their material.

684
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 3: This person understands the path a manuscript takes to go

685
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 3: from submission to publication, and it is at ease with

686
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 3: insider LINGO like MS instead of manuscript like. Okay, that's

687
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 3: not the hardest thing to dot. That's gotta be an

688
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 3: inside jo. So no one understood the scope or the

689
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 3: source of the activity. There's no obvious pattern that points

690
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 3: to a single purp. It just seemed weird. Behind the scenes,

691
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 3: cybersecurity teams started tracing suspicious domains and like patterns emerged.

692
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 3: Domain registrations were clustered together, the hosting details overlapped and

693
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 3: phishing incidences were linked to the same infrastructure, so the

694
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 3: Feds come in, they start investigating, and by late twenty

695
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 3: twenty one they had a suspect. So Bernardini. He lands

696
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 3: at JFK Airport January of twenty twenty two. Federal agents

697
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 3: arrest him. Immediately. You were there, you were getting ready

698
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 3: to remember the passport. The Department of Justice charged him

699
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 3: with wire fraud and aggravated identity theft, and then they

700
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 3: laid out this like six year campaign of impersonation and

701
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 3: unauthorized access. The publishing industry was just stunned, in part

702
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 3: because like everyone had their own pet theory, and Bernardini

703
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 3: fit none of them.

704
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 2: Nobody was even closed, no one.

705
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 3: Was even remotely close. A lot of folks thoughts, since

706
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 3: they knew detective novels and thrillers, that they would for

707
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 3: sure be able to crack the case. They would say

708
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 3: it in interviews like we know, we know detective stories.

709
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 2: I was going to say, well, he's breaking the classic

710
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: like the rule, which is who benefits, he's not benefiting, no, yeah, and.

711
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 3: You can't follow the money like yeah, exactly. So the

712
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: majority of those who were tracking the whole thing were

713
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 3: positive that the purp was a literary scout and they

714
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 3: were sure that whoever this person was, they were in

715
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 3: New York, so because he tried to like mimic Eastern

716
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 3: time zone apparently, so like a good chunk of those

717
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 3: folks actually thought it was like one particular guy who's

718
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 3: kind of like a horse's ass insult. Oh yeah, it

719
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 3: would have been great to be able to finally pin

720
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 3: him on him and everyone's like, man, yeah, he was

721
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 3: just like this super jerk and then was like, it's

722
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 3: gotta be him, dude. The other thing was that the

723
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 3: scale of the operation was unprecedented. It's like hundreds of

724
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 3: people had been impersonated, and like, as we said, more

725
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,240
Speaker 3: than a thousand manuscripts are taken. But we don't have motive.

726
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 3: It doesn't make any sense. There's no financial gain, like

727
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 3: you said, no, So during the investigation, authorities found zero

728
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 3: evidence that he ever intended to profit from the manuscripts.

729
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 3: He admitted to him, I just like to read them private.

730
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: Seriously, where did you do with them?

731
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 3: And he said he said he felt compelled to get

732
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 3: his hands on him because like the access itself was

733
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 3: the reward, the idea that he has access to all

734
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 3: this stuff that he kind.

735
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: Of like you know, kept out. He wasn't an outsider,

736
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 2: he was the insiders insider.

737
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. January twenty twenty three, he pleaded guilty to one

738
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 3: count of wire fraud.

739
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 2: Wondering what they're going to charge him with.

740
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was also charged with identity theft, but they

741
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 3: dropped that as part of the plea agreement. He was

742
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 3: sentenced in March of twenty three and the judge was like,

743
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 3: you know, this is this is a really unique situation.

744
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 3: So he gets sentenced to time served, ordered to pay

745
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 3: eighty eight thousand dollars in restitution, placed on supervised release,

746
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 3: and then deported.

747
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 2: They take away his internet access be guess not.

748
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 3: And he so he has this like written statement where

749
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 3: he expressed from Morris. He said that books which were

750
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 3: once his refuge had become reminders of his wrongdoing. His

751
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 3: career in publishing is over, Like books are ruined for him.

752
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 3: He has nothing. So the judge like noted the seriousness

753
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 3: of the crime and like the harm that he caused

754
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 3: that you know here these authors had like this fear

755
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 3: and this sense of violations that publishing professionals who'd been

756
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 3: falsely suspected of wrongdoing.

757
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 2: Who's the j is like, you know, come on, guys,

758
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: and so like a great way to find out.

759
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 3: No one likes the FBI keeps coming to your office,

760
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 3: like are you sure you didn't do it? No, I didn't.

761
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: We'd like you to submit for yet another test.

762
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 3: We have so many people have accused you, and so

763
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 3: like trust is damaged all across the industry that you know,

764
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 3: people are now they don't believe emails that are coming

765
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 3: in everyone's double triple checking. In the months after the case,

766
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 3: all these publishing houses they started revising their security practices.

767
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: Don't a bunch of new it guys are showing up

768
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: that he created, So.

769
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 3: Like email verification improved, manuscript sharing became way more controlled,

770
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 3: and then there was training and fishing and impersonation like

771
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 3: that that all these employees had to go through. But

772
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 3: the case, it like left behind this deeper unease. Because

773
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,919
Speaker 3: he's not an outsider exploiting publishing from afar calls coming

774
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 3: from inside the house. He understood the culture of the rhythms,

775
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 3: the vulnerabilities, and so the crime like exposes how dependent

776
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 3: the industry had become upon you know, trust without.

777
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: Verification, Yeah, completely.

778
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 3: And it forced really uncomfortable questions about access and exclusion,

779
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,280
Speaker 3: and like obsession in creative industries.

780
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 2: Also, what about the publishing houses that he didn't imitate?

781
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 2: Did they feel like we're on the outs, we didn't

782
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 2: books anything worthwhile? That's how you find out you're like

783
00:42:59,120 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 2: not a hot agent.

784
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 3: Oh that's so painful. Yeah, and that hurt their feelings.

785
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 3: I'm guessing a lot of Bruce digos so like his actions,

786
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 3: they're criminal, they're deliberate.

787
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 2: You're hit brunch lying about it like, oh my god.

788
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, he tried to hack us like fifteen times.

789
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: Totally imitated me, like at least six times, like just

790
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 2: in one year.

791
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 3: You like that you start spreading these rumors that your

792
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 3: book was one of the ones. Yeah, you know, it's crazy.

793
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 3: I kept telling people how did this get?

794
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 2: I called Margaret that one. I was like me too, girl.

795
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 3: So you have like he has his desire to belong

796
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 3: right and he winds up destroying every connection.

797
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: That he saw, completely connection to the thing he loves.

798
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 3: And there aren't precedents for the cases like this.

799
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I don't know how they.

800
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 3: Intellectual property theft revolves around profit for the most part,

801
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 3: and like so his is just about possession and it's

802
00:43:55,239 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 3: like emotionally driven. So like even among non monetary frauds.

803
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 3: It's unusual because the scale was so massive. It's more

804
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 3: comparable to like massive financial cybercrime. So you can't find

805
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 3: any analogs in anything. The sophistication was approaching like state level.

806
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 2: In person, I was going to say, yeah, really, it's

807
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,720
Speaker 2: much more like the North Korean hackers and the Russian

808
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 2: hackers that type of move.

809
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then he's targeting creative labor rather than the

810
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 3: institutions directly.

811
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 2: There's not a lot of laws to protect the feelings

812
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 2: of vulnerability of authors.

813
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 3: Which you're very sensitive. And then we have this like

814
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 3: total apps. There's no spectacle, there's no profit, there's no coersion.

815
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 3: So in the end, he didn't steal the books to

816
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 3: sell them, like I said, he just wanted to feel close.

817
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,879
Speaker 3: He wanted to feel chosen, Yeah, part of that world.

818
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 3: And he crosses this like legal and ethical line, he

819
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 3: can't come back. And so publishing figures out, like you know,

820
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 3: the quietest crimes can be the most devastating, truly, Zaren,

821
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,439
Speaker 3: I wonder what's your ridiculous takeaways question?

822
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 2: I wonder if anyone this happens to be my ridiculous

823
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 2: take perfect. So it works out. Well, Yeah, I wonder

824
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 2: if anyone like felt bad for him and like would

825
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 2: flip him a bone and like send him a manuscript

826
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 2: like before it goes out. Anyway, just includes him on

827
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 2: the like email list. Let's see if anyone noticed this

828
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: is this from Bernadini what the guy?

829
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 3: The guy like at Gmail?

830
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: I will totally do that. If I was an agency

831
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 2: right now, I was an author who had a new book,

832
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 2: I would send it to.

833
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 3: Him on like A I would create a fake Bernadinie email.

834
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 2: Address or your new pen spelled two l's like, and then.

835
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 3: Just copy it on everything, and people like, what is

836
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 3: wrong with you?

837
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 4: I'm sick of.

838
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 2: Your detective is filled, Berdine.

839
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 3: You want to feel included, you want access? Here you go,

840
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 3: you know what we need?

841
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 2: Wait, wait, wait a minute, you didn't tell me your

842
00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 2: ridiculous What was it that is?

843
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 3: This is so weird? There are no analogs, there's nothing

844
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 3: like that, George. Yeah, sure, okay, say it was? Who

845
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 3: was my musings and my takeaway? You know what I

846
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 3: really need is a talk bag? Oh? I love Hi,

847
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 3: Elizabeth and Zarren.

848
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 4: My name is Eric, and I am calling to you

849
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 4: from my home in Watertown, Wisconsin, home of Ryan Bogwart.

850
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,439
Speaker 4: There's such a thrill to hear you guys talk about

851
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 4: my little town of my home of forty four years.

852
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 4: I just wanted to let you know about the culture, Elizabeth.

853
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 4: You called it lovely. I would call it drunk. We

854
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 4: were probably the drinking oft town in the drinking estate

855
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 4: in the Union, and at one point we had a

856
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 4: downtown intersection where three of the four buildings were bars.

857
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 2: Have a good day.

858
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 3: That sounds pretty lovely to meet, dude.

859
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, what is lovely?

860
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 3: It's another person's what is.

861
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 2: It about the latte? It's like we always think about

862
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 2: like tropical places it being like drunk because like of advertising, right,

863
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 2: it's like, oh yeah, live moths come down and get

864
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 2: drunk here, and like we oh, like we have like

865
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 2: you know, the Christmas lights in our palm tree of

866
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: your corona, like we associated. But really the more northern latitudes,

867
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 2: the drunker and the real whole fashional drinking.

868
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,240
Speaker 3: And the winter days are so short.

869
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: Is that what it is? It just gets dark.

870
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 3: I lived it.

871
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 2: It's bizarre like Iceland, Wisconsin, doesn't matter, Glasgow, Russia, all

872
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 2: of Mongolia. I mean, it's just.

873
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, what else she gonna do. It's cold, it's dark.

874
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 2: They ferment horses, milking monk. Like, we can drink off

875
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 2: that you drunk off.

876
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 3: There's a was it seagull wine or whatever?

877
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 2: Oh, that's right.

878
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 3: The last day.

879
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 2: There's some stuff like when I hear some of the

880
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 2: drinks people drinking northern latitudes and you're talking to somebody

881
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 2: who will pretty much try any drink. What you got

882
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 2: liquorund it, I'll try it. They have stuff there. Then

883
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, dude, what now, like seagull wine or whatever.

884
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 2: I'm like that, you know, Oh, that's like you we

885
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 2: we've lost God's light here.

886
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 3: That was awesome, Well lovely. That's it for today. You

887
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 3: can find us online at ridiculous Crime dot com. We're

888
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 3: also at Ridiculous Crime on Blue Sky and on Instagram.

889
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 3: We're on YouTube at ridiculous Crime Pod. You can email

890
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 3: us at ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com, and most importantly,

891
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,439
Speaker 3: leave us a talk back on the free iHeart app

892
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 3: reach out. Ridiculous Crime is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and

893
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 3: Zaren Burnett, produced and edited by Literary Scout for the

894
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 3: Baltimore Orioles Dave Coustin starring Analyse, Rucker is Judith. Research

895
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 3: is by QR Code, Restaurant menu Thief Marissa Brown and

896
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 3: student group Project PowerPoint Thief to Barie Davis. The theme

897
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 3: song is by Phillible Pdf Thief Thomas Lee and heavily

898
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:59,240
Speaker 3: formatted Excel Spreadsheets EF Travis Dutton. Host wardrobe is provided

899
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 3: by Botany five hundred. Guest hair and makeup by Sparkleshot

900
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 3: and mister Andre. Executive producers are LG. Dishwasher Manual author

901
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 3: Ben Bollen and Notorious Dan Brown impersonator Noel Brown. Redous Crime,

902
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 3: Say It One More Times Crime.

903
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. Four more Podcasts.

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00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,040
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