1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: At the height of the scandal, in a track came 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: out by this underground hip hop group called Skull. It's 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: a typical disk track. Skull is going after some other 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: Korean hip hop artists like Dynamic Duo, but he also 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: has some bars for Tableau. One of the lines goes, 6 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: you can lie to other people about your education, but 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: you can't lie to yourself. There's cheaters all around us, 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: the media. It's all a set up. Someone's manipulating behind 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: the scenes. We contacted Skull for comment, he didn't respond. 10 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: But even beyond Skull, Tableau scandal was an opportunity for 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: rappers who have been living in Epicaia's shadow. You could 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: pile on, thow some lyrical darts, and maybe get some 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: new fans. Because like all modern hip hop beef, the 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: winner isn't necessarily the best rapper, it's whoever gets the 15 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: most attention. These were the musicians the Tableau came up with, 16 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: and when things started to crumble, they came for him. 17 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: But the whole genius rapper thing was a double edged sword. 18 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: It was a hook that helped Tablett break into the mainstream, 19 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: and it also made some people in the hip hop 20 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: scene turn on it a PHENI fip hop phenim fipop, 21 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: what flies my name never, I can be drum, I 22 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: can I can cat writing there my book around so 23 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: on the Worst Past the Mark Yeah, blah blah blahla 24 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: Vice and I Heart I'm Dexter Thomas and this is 25 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: authentic Episode three, the sellout. When Epic Hi released their 26 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: first album in two thousand three, the Korean music industry 27 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: didn't really know what to do with them. They didn't 28 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: understand how to package us, I guess, so they put 29 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: us in these like I look like a magician in 30 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: my first in my first TV performance, I literally look 31 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: like a magician, and Mitra looks like a pirate, so 32 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: we look like a magical like magical group of pirates. 33 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: They try to make us dance, but they realized we couldn't, 34 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: and so we're somewhere in between like dancing and rapping, 35 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: which makes everything look awkward, and it was just horrible. 36 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: I've seen pictures from these early days and the label 37 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: didn't seem to get hip hop. It looked like they 38 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: were trying to sell Epic High as some kind of 39 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: edgy boy band. But it's hard to blame the label 40 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: because there wasn't a whole lot of precedent. There was 41 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,679 Speaker 1: this group that I really liked in Korea called steg 42 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: And and Voice The Patient Voice, great name right. For 43 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: a long time, hip hop and Korea had been associated 44 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: with this one group. The first time Saltegian Boys got 45 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: on TV was and there's a performance from back then 46 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: that everyone remembers. They were on a music competition show. 47 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: At first, the only difference from any other Korean singers 48 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: is that everyone's wearing baggy clothing New York Yankees jerseys 49 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: and overalls. The lights start out dim and the guy 50 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: in the front is singing what sounds like a run 51 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: of the mill pop valley. But then the lights turn 52 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: on and the beat drops, and then everyone gets up 53 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: and starts dancing like they're in an MC hammer video 54 00:03:55,520 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: and they start rapping in English to their music at 55 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: first was not really kind of hip hop, but more 56 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: of the dance music with some rapping. Ut ug Lee 57 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: is a music professor, but he was a teenager when 58 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: he saw sell Tegian Boys on that show. The rest 59 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: of the acts were more mainstream stuff like traditional Korean 60 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: pop music, were ballad singers, and the judges gave sell 61 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: Tegian Boys a terrible score. One of them said, quote, 62 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: your lyrics made me feel uncomfortable because of all the 63 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: grammatical errors. But to the kids that didn't matter. And 64 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: when I went to school next Monday, everybody talked about 65 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: SETEGI would you say that Suchegin Boys, that that first 66 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: TV appearance was that like the beginning for modern I 67 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: should say that. Still I cannot say that it is 68 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: the the hip hop, but still they were the one 69 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: who introduced rap in Korea. Rap hadn't developed into its 70 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: own genrees yet. It was more like some musicians would 71 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: occasionally wrap just to add some flavor to their pop songs. 72 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: I mean, even Celtegian Boys didn't fully lean into hip 73 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: hop until the third album, which came out a few 74 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: years later. It was the groups that came out after, 75 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: like Drunken Tiger, Dynamic Duo, and Epic High that would 76 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: really shape what we now think of as the early 77 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: Korean hip hop scene. But even into the early two thousand's, 78 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: this was all still pretty underground. Rappers were mostly just 79 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: a bunch of fanatic kids, and nobody thought that hip 80 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: hop would ever be mainstream in Korea. Whenever I ask 81 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: anyone about where it all started. For Tableau, for Epic High, 82 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: and for Korean hip hop in general, one place always 83 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: comes up, Hung Day. Hung Days the name for a 84 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: neighborhood that's around hung Nic University, and in the early 85 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: two thou it was the hip hangout for young people 86 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: who were into art and music alright, one to to 87 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: check one two one two. During the daytime, Hung Day 88 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: looked like any other college area, small cafes, boutique shops, 89 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But at night, the local pubs, 90 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: bars and clubs transformed the neighborhood. The central gathering points 91 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: was this neighborhood, and also specifically there was most of 92 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: the nightlife targeted young college kids, so the drinks were cheap, 93 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: the music was loud, and a lot of the clubs 94 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: were literally underground. I remember Master Planned. On the weekdays 95 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: they have rock music performance when the weekend was I 96 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: think hip hop. This is ju Choy, but people in 97 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: the hip hop scene call him j Win, So I 98 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: just added Win because among all this Jay, I'm the winners. Win. 99 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: J Win introduced Epic Hi to each other and he 100 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: produced their first album. But before that he was one 101 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: of the o G producers in the scene, and he 102 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: was always on the lookout for new talent in hung Day. 103 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: So at that time there's a hip hop live club 104 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: called master Plan in Soul. That's the underground hip hop 105 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: live club where Korean hip hop underground rappers who are 106 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: performing every weekend at that time for underground mcs. Their 107 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: dream is to perform at master Plan. If you were 108 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: into hip hop at this time, you were an outsider. 109 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: To the outsiders, there weren't a lot of places for 110 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: you to go, even in hung Day. So all the rappers, 111 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: the DJs, the break dancers, they went to master Plan, 112 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: not just to hang out, but to prove themselves. They 113 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: took it seriously. There. Master Plan was the place for 114 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: hip hop. Have you been in the neighborhood where master 115 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: Plan was recently, No Richard and a twenty years on, 116 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: the neighborhood has changed a lot. That grimmy underground vibe 117 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: is pretty much gone. It's a lot more commercial now. 118 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: There's expensive restaurants and franchise stores and master Plan closed 119 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: a long time ago. The building where it used to 120 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: be still exists, but now it's more of a multipurpose 121 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: event space. One of the few things that hasn't changed 122 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: is the spot across the street. I really want to 123 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: visit there because there's a favorite restaurant we always it 124 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: after a performance. Is it the one right across the street, right, yeah, 125 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: right in front of the Yet it's called I think Yet, 126 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: I think. Okay, let's see. Yeah. So if you look 127 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: on the wall here, you can see there's all these 128 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: different people with signs, stuff from whatnot. The restaurant is 129 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: really tiny. The owner is this older woman who didn't 130 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: want to be interviewed, but she was down to talk 131 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: to us. She seemed kind of confused about why we 132 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: were asking about this club that had closed down so 133 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: long ago. I asked her if she knew who Epic 134 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: High was, and she said she did, and as a 135 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: matter of fact, she had pictures of them taped up 136 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: on the wall in the back. Right here at the top, 137 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: there's table with this like I said, this got like 138 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: a run DMC, kind of big brimmed hat like Pharrell 139 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: of Epic High. The members signed paper. Yeah yeah you 140 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: gotta go back, man. Yeah, she's got she's got stuff 141 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: from everybody. Yeah, my god, I should go there. I 142 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: really missed that place. I remember like every time we 143 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: were waiting outside. Could better we're you're so you know, 144 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: shaky because it's so cold. And then she always told 145 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: us like, hey, come inside, you just take back here. 146 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: What do they think of you? There are a bunch 147 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: of hip hop kids coming in after the concert. I 148 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: don't think she knows what we are doing. I don't 149 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: think she knows what hip hoppies. I think she just 150 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: treat us just kind of her grandson. Do you remember 151 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: when you first met Tablow? Where were you? Oh? What? Regin, 152 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: whose real name is Jin Choi, is the other m 153 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: C and epic Hi. He says when he first met 154 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: Tableau in a hotel lobby, He's been expecting somebody who 155 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: looked a little less nerdy. J Wynn had orchestrated the meetings. 156 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: At the time, Tableau was still in college and he'd 157 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: come home to Soul for the winter break, and he 158 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: was wanting to see if maybe he could get signed 159 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: in Korea. J wyn made table Will perform on the spot. 160 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: He played him some beats and Tableau started rapping. One 161 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: all of them was actually lesson ones uh originalal beat 162 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: in the first album, and that was same lyrics of 163 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: Lesson mark break out. Wow, What did you think? Because 164 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: those are some pretty serious lyrics. Were you expecting that? No? 165 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: In my mind, I was like, whoa, this guy's first 166 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: serious right. I kind of like it, but I don't 167 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: want to say, Oh, I like you. I like your 168 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: wrap on the first day. Right. Tableau only wrapped in 169 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: English back then, which was fine for the parties in California, 170 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: but it wasn't going to cut it in Korea. So 171 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 1: j Wynn told him, as soon as you go back 172 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: to Stanford every week, you should record one or two 173 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: songs in Korean lyrics and you should send me. So 174 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: he did that I was fluent in Korean, but that 175 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: my Korean writing was nowhere near the way I was 176 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: writing in English. And also it's very different rapping in Korean. 177 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: You know, I had less experience with that. So while 178 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: Tabolo was still studying in Stanford to finish his last semester, 179 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: DJ came to my home like once, so we junk said, 180 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: Kim a k A d J two Cuts is the 181 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: third member of Epic Chai. When I asked him how 182 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: he became a DJ, he told me that he didn't 183 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 1: really have any choice. He tried to wrap. When did 184 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 1: you decide, Hey, maybe I want to start trying to 185 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: DJ labor, but quickly realized that he wasn't any good 186 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: at and out of four elements of hip hop, BBoy D, 187 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: the all I just show you so boy, you don't get. 188 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: The only thing he was good at was DJ. He 189 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: kept at it and one day he met j Wynn 190 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: through a mutual friend. J Wynn mentioned that he needed 191 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: a DJ for a group he was trying to put together, 192 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 1: and two Cuts said well, hey, I could DJ, So 193 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: they started working together. Then in two thousand to Tabloo 194 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: came back to Korea and they all formed a group 195 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: and j Winn helped them get signed to a small label. 196 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: The way they all tell it, they didn't really have 197 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: high expectations for this thing. They were a bunch of 198 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: inexperienced kids making music in a genre that almost nobody 199 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: in Korea even listened to the music industry at this 200 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: point was basically either mainstream pop ballads or this other 201 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: thing that people were starting to call k pop. There 202 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: wasn't any room for a bunch of dudes yelling over 203 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: drums into a microphone. They didn't even figure out a 204 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: name yet, so we were talking like a pig at 205 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: pick at pig something at pig or just just keep 206 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: you know, spit it out like at pick Fly, like 207 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: something like that. Then one day Tabolo and iur sitting 208 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: in the college and watching TV and they said I 209 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: was like at Pig High. Oh my god. I was like, 210 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: oh my god, yes, every card, that's how your name. 211 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: Now they were officially a hip hop group. They had 212 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: a name, a contract, and some things they wanted to 213 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: wrap about, so they started recording. But pretty soon they 214 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: realized that something wasn't right with their label. They figured 215 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: out that this this contract was messed up. It wasn't 216 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: just messed up in that they weren't getting paid well, 217 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: and they weren't. I mean, they were getting about ten 218 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: dollars per day for meals to split between the three 219 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: of them in the most expensive city in Korea. But 220 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: the problem was now we had to pay the bill 221 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: for all the recording and everything, which is ridiculous because 222 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: we really didn't have enough to eat. And Tableau's parents 223 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: were not an option. They were still up in arms 224 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: about the fact that I've finished up college and to 225 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: do this that they didn't want me like living in 226 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: their home, So now we have nowhere to live. I 227 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: was living at one rapper's house and another rapper's house. 228 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: Any friend that would have me, you just CouchSurfing at 229 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: this point, Oh, it wasn't CouchSurfing. One guy that I 230 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: was living with who's still great friends with me, he 231 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: had a like an attic, uh, like where you climbed 232 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: up a ladder and you opened the attic and a 233 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: tiny space. He allowed me to stay there as long 234 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: as his mom didn't find that. And I remember, like, 235 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: just like some movie, like I would open the crack 236 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: and they would be eating dinner, and I would open 237 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: it because he smelled so good and I was so hungry, 238 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: and it was like from some Disney movie or something 239 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: where like I'm like hiding in this rich family's house 240 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: and I'm hungry, and I'm just you know, that's just 241 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: literally what what? What went on? For about a year, 242 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: Epic High was stuck but at an album, but no 243 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: one could hear it because the contract they were in 244 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: so they couldn't release the record until they paid back 245 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: their debt first, and none of them had that kind 246 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: of money. I felt like I had completely fucked up 247 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: my life, like on my own. The only way they 248 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: could escape was if another label took them on and 249 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: pay them out of that bad contract. But even then 250 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: that would just mean they'd be in debt to someone else. 251 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I was now in too deep, 252 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: Like I had finished this album and I knew the 253 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: album was good and there's no way I can just 254 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: give up. But I was pretty much ready to Do 255 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: you ever think about giving up? Yeah? I was like 256 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: this might not pan out. I might have to live 257 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: the lie, like become a lawyer. Oh my god. And 258 00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: then as I was ready to quit, I was drunk, 259 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: passed out somewhere. I got a call and some company 260 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: that I had never heard of wanted to talk to me, 261 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: So I went in. They liked the album, they signed us, 262 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: and literally put out the album and I think like 263 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: two weeks. Map of the Human Soul was released in 264 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: October of two three. Finally, after a year on the show, 265 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: the world was gonna hear Epic Haigh's debut. In the 266 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: hip hop scene, we became huge stars. There was this 267 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: one hip hop like web scene where every hip hop 268 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: kid would go to just you know, get Korean hip 269 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: hop news and stuff, and they would have a yearly 270 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: award thing and we like basically swept like best artists, 271 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: best album, best whatever. Right, But mind you, this is 272 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: a very small number of people at the time, right, 273 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: this is like maybe at most ten thou people. And 274 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: I know this because we sold ten thousand records. In 275 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: mainstream terms, we had completely bombed. We'll be right back. 276 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: Epic Has first album wasn't doing great. We were winning 277 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: this web scene award, but at the same time, like 278 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 1: we were, you know, tutoring kids and like trying to 279 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: survive and to make matters worse, they found themselves in 280 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: another bad contract. Nothing had really changed because we just 281 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: didn't get paid. They were all working multiple jobs trying 282 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: to make ends meet. It didn't really matter because nobody 283 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: recognized us. But they kept going, hoping that their second 284 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: album would change things. Right after our second album came 285 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: out and within a couple of days, I knew that 286 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: this was gonna fall. WHOA, because you just know, you 287 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: just feel it. You Mith told me that the second 288 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: album did sell better than the first one. I didn't 289 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: take one on the on the cold, but we're still 290 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: talking in relative terms here, as in it sold well 291 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: for an indie album in a niche genre, which hip 292 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: hop was at the time, and the label wasn't really 293 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: satisfied with that. They started working on the third album, 294 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: but they knew that this one was probably their last. 295 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: If this one didn't sell, they'd call it quits. That's 296 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: quickly make our last album. But in the meantime, I 297 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: have a little bit of a plan, and that's when 298 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: I asked the thing. The thing was the taboo thing 299 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: in hip hop going on TV, me appearing on a 300 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 1: talk show during those times what equaled death in the 301 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: hip hop scene. It was considered like a big no. 302 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: Now says that at this point, the underground versus mainstream 303 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 1: was a huge issue in the Korean scene. I mean, 304 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: it's the classic hip hop debate. I remember this debate 305 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: from when I was DJ in college radio in California 306 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: back in the early two thousand's. A lot of us 307 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: were kind of suspicious of anyone who got too popular, 308 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: but we weren't going to boycott your records just because 309 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: somebody interviewed you on TV. But hearing these guys describe it, 310 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: it sounds like it was way harsher in Korea. Maybe 311 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: it's because the scene was so small, but people were 312 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: really serious about this stuff. Going on TV was proposes sellouts, 313 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: was the opposite of hip hop. TV promotion was more 314 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: a k pop's lane. At the time, we debuted with 315 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: the most popular Korean k pop groups in history, Tombang 316 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 1: Shingi TV XQ, literally possibly the most popular group ever 317 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: in Korea before BTS, and that meant that when we 318 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: went to perform at these this show like they wanted 319 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: us off the stage, like as soon as possible if 320 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: they didn't have a stomach for us. Um, you know, 321 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: it just wasn't clicking because nobody wanted us on those shows. 322 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: K pop has always been the bigger, flash year and 323 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: more popular cousin to hip hop, but both genres have 324 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: a history that's pretty deeply intertwined. When did k pop 325 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: as we understand it even really start in Korea, It 326 00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: was when the very first K pop band, h O 327 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: t Man Derek debut. There is a lot of debate 328 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: about the exact time when modern day k pop came 329 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: to be, but Utah Lie says that what we can 330 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: say is that by the late nineties, around the same 331 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: time as hip hop was emerging, k pop was already 332 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: in the front seat and it was redefining what it 333 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: meant to be mainstream music in Korea, h O T 334 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: and S E S. We're dominating the Korean music charts. 335 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: This was a programmatic move by a guy named Li 336 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: su Mine, the founder of s M Entertainment. He spent 337 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: some time in the US in the eighties, and he 338 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: was amazed at what MTV was doing. He also took 339 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: notes on some other successful industries, like the j pop 340 00:22:54,480 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 1: music scene in Japan and America's motown formula. And it 341 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: wasn't just music industries that he was inspired by. For 342 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: decent that kind of factory music processing fdism. You're saying 343 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: Fordism as in Ford Yeah, right, the did the car, 344 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: that the automobile factory, that the labor, the work is 345 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: clearly divided to each one, just like the motor company, 346 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: you know. And he combined this all together and he 347 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: came up with a sort of factory model for music. 348 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: It worked really well until about the early two thousands. 349 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: Some of the idol band even complained it as a 350 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: slight contract. The biggest K pop idols started to realize 351 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: that the deals they'd signed into weren't all that great, 352 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: and the general public realized that a lot of those 353 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: idols weren't all that talented. That they did not do 354 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: their live performance well on the stage, they only danced 355 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: to the music. So a lot of casual fans started 356 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: to get disillusioned with K pop and this left a 357 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: gap for other genres of music to come in. Also, 358 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: Epicai really came at just the right time. Yes, but 359 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: it was very coincidence because actually that was the very 360 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: period for many Hippan musicians, Dynamic Duo, Drunken Tiger and 361 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: the Epicai at that time. Yes, there was a room 362 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: for that. I get this butt to your second album 363 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: where you're you're almost having to explain the people what 364 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: hip hop is and here's how we're going to do it. Oh, 365 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: it goes beyond that. Really, basically interviews were really boring 366 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: to them because I was giving lectures about like how 367 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: graffiti played a role in it, how b boing played 368 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: a role, like you know, two cuts had to break down, 369 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: like why djaying matters like Herbie Hancock, and like it's 370 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: just like everything had to be a lesson to just 371 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: simply introduce what we do for our living. It's not 372 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: our music, but it has grown into something that we 373 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: can identify with and that we can you know, turn 374 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: into something that we can express our own thoughts and 375 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: voices through right, but this was an entire population that 376 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: was not, you know, they just had never been exposed 377 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: to it. Epicai spent years patiently explaining hip hop on 378 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: any TV show that would have them, all the while 379 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: competing with K pop for stage time, and it really 380 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: wasn't until two thousand five, with the release of the 381 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: third album that anyone started paying attention. Part of that 382 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: new attention was because Tableau was everywhere doing the TV thing. 383 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: The other part was because in this album they started 384 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: incorporating influences from K pop, and since that genre was 385 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: already made stream, it was a little easier for people 386 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: to adjust to Epicai sound. So it was only natural 387 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: that when their third album was released, they were bona 388 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: fide superstars. But it wasn't all love. Hip hop heads 389 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: accused them of selling out to K pop for mainstream approval. 390 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: Their fourth album did get some hip hop fans back 391 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: on their side because they went back to the core, 392 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: underground sound, but that record was censored by the Korean government. 393 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: Some of the songs dealt with things like sex crimes, war, education, 394 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: and religion, and songs that talked about these kind of 395 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: social issues were banned from playing on the radio. This 396 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: would usually be a bad thing, but not for a 397 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: hip hop group. Epic High getting censored actually probably helped 398 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: them rebuild their street crib with that core hip hop audience, 399 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: because it let their fans know that Epic High wasn't 400 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: just about the fame. They were about the messaging, the 401 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: things they were saying and doing. So people started paying 402 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: more attention to them with the release of their fis 403 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: and the sixth albums, but not all the attention was positive. 404 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: If you get a lot of fans, you're gonna get 405 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: a few haters, and pretty soon those haters would find 406 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: an opportunity in the Tajo scandal was making national headlines. 407 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: Things started coming offline into the real world. Tableau was 408 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: now getting death threats and being accosted by strangers in 409 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: the streets. I don't know how they got through to me, 410 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: but someone threatened to kill me, my wife, and my 411 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: daughter if we didn't get out of the country. And 412 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: almost overnight, he'd gone from being a beloved symbol of 413 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,719 Speaker 1: success in Korea to one of the most hated people 414 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: in the country. You know how people think that, like 415 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: you know, like hey, don't think about the comments. They 416 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: don't worry about the comments. Don't don't read the comments. 417 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: That's not real, you know, that's detached from reality. All 418 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: you gotta do is turn your computer off. Dude, just unpluged, logout, man, 419 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: and you're fine. I gotta say, like the experience I had, 420 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: it wasn't detached. You know, people were threatening me online. 421 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: I tried to turn it off, but in the real 422 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: world it still happened like it was connected. It had 423 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 1: been a month since the Tagino message board had started. 424 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: Tableau had stopped going outside. It wasn't safe to leave 425 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: his house anymore. Tableau had released his transcript, thinking that 426 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: this would fix everything. A few hours later after the 427 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: article came out, when I learned that that was not 428 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: going to be the case. That people were not accepting 429 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: these documents as real. They were saying my diploma was doctored. 430 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: They were saying the transcript was fake. Tanjano was looking 431 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: at every detail of that transcript in calling everyone and 432 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: anyone associated with Stanford to confirm details. No one believed 433 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: that just being in Korea started to feel so dangerous 434 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: that Tabou left the country with his wife and his baby, 435 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: who was still only a few weeks old. First they 436 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: went to Japan and then Hawaii. He tried not to 437 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: think about it for a while. He knew that sometimes 438 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: weird stuff just takes a while to blow over. After 439 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: a month, he figured it'd be safe to go back 440 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: to Korea. And I actually hadn't been looking at the 441 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: internet for a while because well, obviously, right then he 442 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: looked at his phone. And then I realized that it 443 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: had now spread to my family, like it had become 444 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: a campaign against my family. I realized that it got 445 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: it had gotten to a point where I now had 446 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: no choice but to fight. Isn't this point There were 447 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: also people calling and contacting the broadcasting stations saying that 448 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: like I should get fired. I didn't really go to 449 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: Stanford either, This was already happening. Yeah, Sean Limb worked 450 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: as a broadcast journalist in Korea. He also happened to 451 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: be good friends with Tableau from their days back at Stanford. 452 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: They were trying to attack everybody who was associated with Tableau, 453 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: and you talk about Dock saying they're really good. What's 454 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: the worst that it got for you? I think it 455 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: was like a lot of hate messages on our company 456 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:49,479 Speaker 1: website or show website. People calling the station, what kind 457 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: of hate messages? What were people saying? Some would be 458 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: just cursing someone's saying like things about Tableau. Someone say 459 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: like I think they would be like even judging my appearance, 460 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: or are like you know, saying like they're the same 461 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: type of people who you know. They found all of us. 462 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: I didn't buy any of the yearbooks at Stanford, and 463 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: I regretted it because I didn't have any of the pictures. 464 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: But they found all the pictures and scanned it and 465 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: put it online so I was able to have them. 466 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: So there are some pictures of me and Dan. Those 467 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: pictures are from when Sean and Dan Lee a k a. 468 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: Tableau both lived in the dorms at Stanford. They stayed 469 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: in contact over the years, and as the scandal was 470 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: getting bigger, Tabloo contacted Sean and asked if they could meet. 471 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: He was having I think a bit of psychosis. He 472 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: was kind of also detaching from reality because he was 473 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: seeing it so much that he started to doubt whether 474 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: he actually went to Stamford himself. And I thought that 475 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: to get to that stage, did he tell you that, yeah? Wow? 476 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: Would you think when he said that. I thought when 477 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: he said that, are you being dramatic or this is 478 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: what can really happen? And then he was getting to 479 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: the point where like trying to ask me, like what 480 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: I do? An interview for him for NBC, which is 481 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: one of the main TV outlets here. NBC, a huge 482 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: broadcasting network in Korea, had proposed a major documentary project. 483 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: They would physically fly with a news crew out to 484 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: California to visit Stanford with Tableau. They'd go to the 485 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: school and talk to the administrators directly. If Tableau was lying, 486 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,719 Speaker 1: they were going to get to the bottom in person. 487 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: Tableau accepted and they flew out in August. Meanwhile, Tajno 488 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: was continuing to grow. The documentary spends time talking to administrators, 489 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: former students, and even some of Tableau's old professors. An 490 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: impostor I'm I'm the real Tobia Swelf okay. They also 491 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: found old videos of Tableau hanging out with his friends 492 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: and the sandwich Man Sandwich. Up until this point, all 493 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: the news about Tableau had been piecemeal, a report about 494 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: Tableau's transcript here or a news article about toddy nose 495 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories there. I was watching the documentary with my 496 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: mom again. She was like, why is this happening? This 497 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: is hey On Park. She is a major epic high 498 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: fan for her and most of Korea. When this two 499 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: part documentary aired in October, it was the first to 500 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: really lay out in one place everything that was going on. 501 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: And I couldn't answer her, you know, because I wasn't 502 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: sure what was going on because none of us, none 503 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: of us in this country, have seen a cyber bullying 504 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: case this big, and it was on a channel that 505 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: almost everyone in Korea watched. For some the documentary made 506 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: it clear the tableau had been telling the truth the 507 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: whole time. It also helped that it was made by 508 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: a respected national news outlet, But for others, it was motivated. 509 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: Within one day of the documentary airing, the form doubled 510 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: in size to almost two hundred thousand members. Now it 511 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 1: was clear this wasn't ending anytime soon. I checked the 512 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: Internet and now it had become a campaign against my brother, 513 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: my sister, and my mom and dad. So when I 514 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: got back and I was like, oh my god, and 515 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:52,359 Speaker 1: not only is persisting, it's gotten like much worse. That's 516 00:34:52,440 --> 00:35:03,479 Speaker 1: next time on Authentic. Authentic is a production of Vice 517 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: Audio and I Heeart Podcast Network. Produced and reported by 518 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: Stephanie Karayuki, Minji Coo, Kate Osbourne and myself with Janet Lee, 519 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: Stephanie Brown, and Sam Egan. Sound design and original music 520 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: composition by Kyle Murdoch, with additional support from Natasha Jacobs. 521 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Janet Lee, editing from Lacey Roberts, 522 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: fact checking by Minji Ku and Nicole Pasulka. Our executive 523 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: producer and VP of Vice Audio is Kate Osbourne from 524 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,760 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcast Network. Executive producers Nikki e Tor and Lindsay Hoffman. 525 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Isne Bobo Nooiette for Epic HAI's original 526 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: concert footage. This episode features Epicai music from their album 527 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 1: Map of the Human Soul, distributed by c J Music 528 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: Music also from Sotegian Boys. Thanks also to MBC for 529 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: their documentary tableaugoes to Stanford. I'm Dexter Thomas. Make sure 530 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: to subscribe wherever you get your podcast so you don't 531 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: miss an episode, and if you dig it, give us 532 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: a rating and a review, and don't forget to check 533 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: us out on Twitter and Instagram at Vice News