1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 2: Only recently did my father Larry appear in a dream. 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 2: We were together in a small harbor, crowded with sailboats, 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 2: tied one to the other in a web of lines, 5 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 2: hopping from one deck to the next. Despite their jostling 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,479 Speaker 2: by waves, the holes didn't bump. The water sounded alive, 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: proud that I would finally take up ocean sailing. My 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 2: father wanted to help me choose the best boat. His 9 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 2: words of encouragement were brief, but his smile was ripe 10 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: with paternal love. Perhaps the imprint of my parents exists 11 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: in the truthful tale of my genes. The color of 12 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: my hair, my mother's dark brows, my conover wide smile, 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 2: my father's easy laugh, my small muscled body that loves 14 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: to dance a wild streak, as I'm told my mother did. 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 2: And two whatever I experienced as an infant must also 16 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: be within me. The tethered gaze between my mother and me, 17 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 2: her voice that I surely recognized straight from the womb. 18 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 2: My father's touch as he stroked the tiny wings of 19 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,639 Speaker 2: my shoulder blades, the smell of my parents, the taste 20 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: of her milk, my primal known world. 21 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 3: That's Sarah Conover, author of the recent memoir Set Adrift. 22 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 3: Sarah's is the story of a family tragedy that occurred 23 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,639 Speaker 3: when she was a very young child, so young, in fact, 24 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 3: that she has no memory of it. She's left with 25 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 3: a lifetime of questions, of longing, and of the profound 26 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 3: desire to understand all that has been lost? What can 27 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 3: we piece together even when the pieces have been shattered 28 00:01:49,680 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 3: beyond recognition. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, 29 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 3: the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 30 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 3: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 31 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 2: It's kind of a complicated map my childhood. So my 32 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: parents and grandparents vanished on January eighth, nineteen fifty eight. 33 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 2: My grandfather spent a lot of winters down in the 34 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 2: tropics sailing. He was one of the most trophied ocean 35 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 2: racing yachtsmen of his time, commodoer of the Cruising Club 36 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: of America, publisher of Voting Industry, on the board of 37 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: Yachting Magazine, and my father was a contender for the 38 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: Olympic Trials, and they had invited my parents down. My 39 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 2: grandfather and grandmother to join them. Right after Christmas. January first, 40 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty eight is when they left the Florida Keys 41 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: headed extensively to Miami, but actually by way of the Bahamas, 42 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 2: and they ran into the worst unpredicted storm in the 43 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: Miami Weather Bureau's history at that time, where the day 44 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: started out as you know, life breeze is expected, and 45 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 2: then like within six hours, there were seventy mile an 46 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 2: hour winds and forty foot waves. Many boats foundered, many 47 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: many and my family's voat was the only one that 48 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 2: didn't return. And because of my grandfather's renowned in the 49 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: yachting and business worlds, it was probably one of the 50 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 2: most extensive private searches, private and public searches of the time. 51 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 2: The Navy, the Coast Guard, the Cuban Navy, all sorts. 52 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: They combed twenty four thousand square miles looking for them, 53 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 2: truly needle in a haystack, and one of the problems 54 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: was that the weather state stormy for a number of days. 55 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: They were reported missing on a Saturday, and the search 56 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: couldn't start till a Tuesday, and that might have been 57 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: the only window where they could have been saved. They 58 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: were seen by a fishing boat nineteen hours after the 59 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 2: storm almost capsized five people hanging off the lines what 60 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: are called drogues by the end of the boat sea anchors. 61 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 2: But the boat that saw them was also foundered. Their 62 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: motor had cut out, so there was a search that 63 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 2: went on for quite a bit, and the dinghy of 64 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: the boat, the kind of the little lifeboat, washed ashore 65 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,559 Speaker 2: on north of Miami about eighty miles five days later 66 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: or so, and nothing else was found. Pieces were put 67 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: together of maybe what happened, but really, you know, forty 68 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 2: forty five foot wave, seventy mile an hour winds, it 69 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 2: tells a lot, and there might have been a mechanical 70 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 2: fil on the boat. We don't know. 71 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 3: You were eighteen months old, your sister Eileen was almost three. 72 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:11,799 Speaker 3: At what point did you have any sense of anything 73 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 3: about the story of knowing that you have lost your parents. 74 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: It's a funny question because you know, back then with 75 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: doctor stock era, you don't talk to kids about these 76 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: kind of things, right, They can't understand it. Really, adults 77 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 2: can't understand it either. So my sister, who was older, 78 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 2: she was the one who was told. My grandmother said 79 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 2: your parents are dead, and I know, my grandmother must 80 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 2: have said it a number of times. But this is 81 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: the weird thing about early childhood loss is one of 82 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: the things you mourn is that you just know your 83 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 2: world vanished, and you don't you don't have those stages 84 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: of recognizing cognitively, Oh, I lost my parents. You know, 85 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: it was almost preverbal and all that, so you don't 86 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: have those stages of grief. There was no in a 87 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 2: way to recognize it. My sister seemed to. She remembers 88 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 2: people coming into her room and she was in her 89 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 2: crib and it was like a big black cloud that 90 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: came over the hole. Everything the world just stopped. 91 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 3: But after the world stops, it also must go on. 92 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: When Sarah and her sister are orphaned by this mysterious 93 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 3: boating accident, they're sent to live with their aunt, their 94 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 3: father's sister, fram and her husband, who have two children 95 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 3: of their own. But Sarah and Eileen's maternal grandmother puts 96 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 3: up a fight, a long fight. A custody battle persists 97 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 3: for ten years, during which Sarah and Eileen are required 98 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 3: to see their grandmother every other weekend. The atmosphere in 99 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 3: their aunt's home and their grandmothers could not be more different. 100 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 2: She was the one who was fighting for custody for 101 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 2: a decade and filled me with vitriol about the family 102 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: with majority custody. They aren't your real family, Those aren't 103 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 2: your parents. You're not one of them. My father's sister's family, 104 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: the way they had to respond to the grief was 105 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: fran My father's sister couldn't talk about the accident at all. 106 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 2: She lost her favorite brother, she lost her hero, her mother, 107 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 2: her father. She just couldn't talk about it. So there 108 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 2: was one family that just couldn't talk about it and 109 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: wouldn't despite all the sailing trophies on the India hutch. 110 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: And then the other family, the other one fighting for custody, 111 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 2: would only talk about it and would say that those 112 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: conivers they killed my daughter. 113 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 3: You have this phrase in your book that really struck me, 114 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 3: which was that you were schooled in dissociation and numbness. 115 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 3: And we've talked a lot about dissociation on this podcast 116 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 3: as sometimes a healthy defense mechanism degree you know, that 117 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 3: protects us until we don't need protecting. Obviously, it can 118 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 3: also be unhealthy. I mean, one of the things that 119 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 3: also really strikes me is the way that and you 120 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 3: as so many kids in that era in particular, where 121 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 3: there was a tragedy in a family or something difficult 122 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 3: in a family, were left to piece it together for themselves, right, 123 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 3: And you know, in a way you're dissociating, but at 124 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 3: the same time you're working overtime to try to piece 125 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 3: it together between what your grandmother, who you don't really trust, 126 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 3: is saying to you and what your adoptive parents were 127 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 3: raising you are saying or not saying to you because 128 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 3: they don't really want to talk about it, especially Fran. 129 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the tragic things is that the family 130 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: that a majority custody was really blown apart, and Fran, 131 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 2: my mother there just you know, she had four kids 132 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 2: and she just couldn't give me the attention that my 133 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 2: grandmother could. And so you know, in certain ways I 134 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: gravitated like this person could give me all the attention 135 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: I need. And my sister and I we would visit 136 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: my grandmother and she was rather an amazing artist and 137 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: had oil paintings that she'd done of my mother and 138 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: had professional photographs of my mother, no conovers, but of 139 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: my mother all over her house in Connecticut. And she 140 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: moved from Fresno to be close to us and to 141 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 2: try to rest us from the other family. And the 142 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: weird thing was, you know, there were pictures of her 143 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 2: mother all over the house, but it was that era 144 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 2: where people didn't smile in photographs, and my sister and 145 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,719 Speaker 2: were like, that's our mother. I mean, you did not 146 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: want to attach to these photographs, and it just it 147 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 2: just did not really compute that this could be our mother. 148 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 2: My grandmother was complicated and fascinating too. You know, she 149 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 2: lost her mother and her sister in the nineteen eighteen flu, 150 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 2: so she had a tragedy behind her and I think 151 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: her losing her daughter just center over the edge and 152 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: she would do anything to get custody of us. 153 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 3: Why was she so against your aunt and uncle, who 154 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 3: became your adoptive parents. 155 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: I think it was existential for her. And she was 156 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 2: a bit of a kookie character. She was always weirdly 157 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: ended up as a single not weirdly, I think very 158 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 2: intentionally ended up as a single parent and married in 159 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 2: the end about five times. And she had sort of 160 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: amazing perseverance and as a single mom, but she would 161 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 2: divorce whatever guy she got married to pretty fast. 162 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 3: And your mother was her only child. 163 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: No, she also had a son by a different father, 164 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 2: and that when she kept her son laying very close 165 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: in ways that you know, I'm sure could be psychologized 166 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 2: very easily in terms of the Oedipus something. You know, 167 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 2: he never got his own career. She always supported him. 168 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 2: He was actually very very smart guy and a great 169 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 2: flamenco guitar player. She kept him close, and I think 170 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 2: it was existential for her after losing her daughter that 171 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 2: she didn't lose him. So in a way, she made 172 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: everybody's life miserable between the two families. And on another hand, 173 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 2: she taught me to see beauty. In some ways she 174 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: really saved my life. She would set up an easel 175 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: for both my sister and I and a beautiful still 176 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 2: life on her breakfast table. The weekends we were with 177 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 2: her and teach us to paint watercolor and oil colors, 178 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 2: and she played the piano and danced. You know. It 179 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: was she would let us have the run of the 180 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: house and that was pretty fun. 181 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 3: She also didn't want you to call her grandma right. 182 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 2: Right, so that was another thing, so she had us 183 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 2: call me mayor, which means mother in French. We did 184 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 2: not know that, and it also ironically means the sea 185 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: in French. 186 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 3: We'll be right back buck. Memory is such a puzzle. 187 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 3: We need witnesses, especially in circumstances like Sarah's. As she writes, 188 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 3: orphans not only lose their parents but also the historians 189 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 3: of their early years. And in Sarah's case, she's on 190 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 3: the receiving end of contradictory stories from her aunt and 191 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 3: her grandmother. So pieces of the story of the truth 192 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 3: come to her over time, like bits of buried treasure. 193 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 3: She begins to be able to assemble, little by little 194 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 3: the truths of who she is and where she belongs. 195 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: There's different stages where you can think, oh no, wait 196 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 2: a minute, wait, I look like her. But when you're little, 197 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 2: you're just trying to land somewhere. And the whole family, 198 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 2: everybody was set adrift by this accident, and where do 199 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: I belong? I think orphans have the ability to you know, 200 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 2: they're kind of a desperate figure, but they also can 201 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 2: remake themselves. And at some point I just decided that's 202 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: what I'm going to do. I watched the Sound of 203 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: Music probably twenty times, and you know, decided that mountains 204 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 2: weren't going to be my thing. I just couldn't go 205 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: near the water, and so completely left the whole sailing 206 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 2: business behind and pretty young, went out to rocky mountains 207 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: and took a mountaineering course. And you know, I was 208 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 2: probably maybe seventeen or eighteen when I walked across Switzerland 209 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 2: by myself after having watched the Sound of Music, not 210 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 2: realizing that that movie was in Austria, thinking it was 211 00:13:54,720 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 2: in Switzerland. But I orphaned myself. I orphaned the grief, 212 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 2: and you know, it seemed okay. I was restless, but 213 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 2: I also looked around me and I saw alcoholism. You know, 214 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: by the time I was a teenager, my sister, Eileen, 215 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: the other orphan, she had really disengaged from my grandmother, 216 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 2: and my grandmother had shown me a lot of favoritism 217 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 2: by then, and so that wasn't really a refuge anymore 218 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: at all. And I didn't I couldn't trust my grandmother 219 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: then either. You know, my father's siblings, except for Friend, 220 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: really dove into alcohol and very troubled lives. And that 221 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: nobody would talk about the elephant in the living room. 222 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: You know, I understand that that generation, the greatest generation. 223 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: They had no tools. Nobody was talking about post traumatic anything. 224 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 2: Nobody knew what to do with grief. So I understand 225 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: it now. But you know, I had that group not 226 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: talking about it, and the other group who was so skewed, 227 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: my my grandmother. I just thought, nobody's telling the truth here, 228 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: and I need to know. I need truth. There has 229 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: to be some authenticity. So at a very young age, 230 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: I became, you know, a religious seeker. At first, it 231 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 2: was through nature. When I was walking through Switzerland, I 232 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 2: happened to walk into the tent where the great Indian 233 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: saint Christiana Murdy was teaching of all people, and that 234 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 2: started to open other doors, and I became a religious 235 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 2: studies major. Fran used to call me the biggest why 236 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 2: kids she ever met, And I think I've been asking, 237 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 2: you know, what is the question we've been asking our 238 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 2: whole lives. One of them is why? Why? And what? 239 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: And are we loved and by whom? And so there 240 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: was a lot of why for me, why and where 241 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: is truth? Where's our foundation? I left home when I 242 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: was seventeen. I graduated early from high school, went out west, 243 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: went to a commune. But you know, along with the 244 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 2: hippie era, there was a lot of spiritual banqueting around 245 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 2: as well, and I guess I, you know, religious studies 246 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 2: certainly gave me a view of it, and I had 247 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: to just keep searching. There was a time when I 248 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: was hiking in Nepal and I was hiking by myself. 249 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: I was trekking in Nepaul and a Tibetan monk came 250 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: in the opposite direction and smiled at me in a 251 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 2: way that I'd never seen a human being smile in 252 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 2: my life. And this was right before college, and I 253 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: felt like, Okay, that is my compass, whatever that is, 254 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: that's my compass. 255 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 3: I can so picture that encounter with the monk on 256 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 3: the path. I can picture that smile. I really, I 257 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 3: can just see it. And you know, I wonder. I mean, 258 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 3: you were, on the one hand, trying to stay ahead 259 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: of what was haunting you as you were making these tracks, 260 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 3: these trips and searching for something that you weren't sure 261 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 3: what you were searching for. You quote the Buddhist psychologist 262 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 3: Tara Brock as saying that trauma is severed belonging, and 263 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 3: that really really struck me. It struck me as a 264 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 3: deep truth. And it seems that your sense of belonging 265 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 3: was ripped away from you as an eighteen month old. 266 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 3: And if that's your story, then it would seem that 267 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 3: life becomes to some degree at some point about finding 268 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 3: a way for that belonging to become a whole. 269 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do think that's what you know. Sometimes 270 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 2: I call it the mother whole, but it could be 271 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 2: the God hole. It could be what makes this steel whole. 272 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 2: I think orphans is a noun and a verb. We 273 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: are orphans, but we are also or in others that 274 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 2: you know as a protective mechanism. And it gets mixed 275 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 2: up with that horrible thing of you know, independence in 276 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 2: American culture, but we orphan ourselves from one another. And yes, 277 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 2: the need for belonging is so fundamental, and I was 278 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: looking for that, whether spiritual nature. I was looking so 279 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 2: hard for that. I was looking for bedrock. So I 280 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 2: decided the Gagnes, my eventually adoptive family. I'd already been 281 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 2: told by my grandmother forever, they're not really your family, 282 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: And you know, your name is Sarah Conover and their Gagne. 283 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 2: Even though I grew up as a Gagne. I think 284 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 2: that I just was looking hard and working hard for 285 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 2: that sense of belonging. What do I belong to? What 286 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 2: do we all belong to? Which is our bedrock? 287 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 3: How old were you when you changed your name back 288 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 3: to Conover. 289 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was in their early twenties when I moved 290 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: out west. It kind of like, Okay, I'm just gonna 291 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 2: do the whole thing. I'm going to take my birth name, 292 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: my beautiful birth name back, and I left the Gagnes. 293 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 2: They're all back on the East Coast and I'm my 294 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 2: own self here and there we go. I'm going to 295 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 2: just take that name back and like you know, putting 296 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: them all in a bottle in the sea, like goodbye. 297 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 2: And of course we can't do that. Of course we 298 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 2: can't do that. So my biological sister still has the 299 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 2: last name by wing Gagne, and my other siblings kept 300 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: that name. But they were my I don't call them 301 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 2: my step siblings. 302 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 3: Well, and they were your cousins. 303 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 2: They were my cousins. They were my first cousins. Yeah. 304 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 3: As often happens, when we open one door, other doors 305 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 3: open too. Sarah changes her name back to the name 306 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 3: she was born with, and she also meets her future husband, Doug. 307 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 3: She's studying to become an aikido, a Japanese martial arts instructor, 308 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 3: in Boulder, Colorado. Doug is practicing martial arts too. They 309 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 3: have shared interests and an immediate connection. They get married. 310 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 3: Within a couple of years, they moved to California to 311 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 3: start a family. Things seem to be going smoothly for Sarah. 312 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 3: She feels far from her childhood, which have been defined 313 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 3: by secrecy, tragedy, and grief, but her grief returns and reverberates, 314 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 3: because that's what grief does. 315 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 2: I was still running hard ahead of the grief, I think, 316 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 2: and numb and pretty excited about a new baby. And 317 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 2: I think the first big wake up call was that 318 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 2: when my you know, there's that book bussel Vandercock's The 319 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 2: Body keeps the Score. I also think the body keeps 320 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 2: the clock. And at eighteen months. I only put this 321 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: together about six months ago, Danny. Eighteen months is when 322 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: I started not to be able to sleep. 323 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 3: When your son was eighteen months old. 324 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, when he was eighteen months old, that's when sleep 325 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 2: got very challenging for me. And later on I realized. 326 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 2: We left California. We left and fran I moved to California. 327 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 2: We decided all to move there together. You know, I'll 328 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: move there. Let's do it at the same time, her 329 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 2: second husband had family there. And I put this also 330 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 2: together about six months ago. Is that when my daughter 331 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,239 Speaker 2: turned eighteen months old, I also left fran behind and 332 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 2: moved up to Washington State from California. Even though I 333 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 2: had told people in California, I had said, I finally 334 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 2: have the mommy I've been looking for. Brand was there 335 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 2: all the time for us. It was a beautiful thing. 336 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 2: And yet, and yet I wanted to move back to 337 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: the mountains, my safe place. 338 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 3: As Sarah enters midlife, she can no longer outrun her grief. 339 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 3: She sinks into a depression that seems, on the surface 340 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 3: of things at odds with the beautiful life she has 341 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 3: created with her family in this beautiful place. 342 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: It's one other thing I wanted to say about orphaning 343 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 2: being an orphan and orphaning others and orphaning yourself, orphaning 344 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 2: your own feelings from yourself. I orphaned my grief when 345 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 2: I looked up you know, secrets. As in family secrets, 346 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 2: it also means to separate. I really kind of thought 347 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: about that. 348 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 3: To separate, surely it does that. 349 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and all of this, I mean, there was just 350 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: separation and secretivity everywhere the ocean. Secreted my parents away, 351 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 2: people secreted their guilt, their grief. We separated ourselves. I mean, 352 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 2: I think that was the biggest tragedy of this is 353 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: that it didn't bring you know, grief to heal has 354 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: to bring a community together. It blew us apart till recently, really, 355 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 2: until my book was done and we could kind of 356 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 2: all see the map of the grief, because grief can 357 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 2: be horizonless, kind of like the sea, and for my 358 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 2: sibs to see their pain on the page and my pain, 359 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: we could find finally drop it. But meanwhile we just 360 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 2: separated from each other and kept orphaning ourselves from one another. 361 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 3: Well, in the process of writing your book, you do 362 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 3: a lot of research, but part of the story are 363 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,360 Speaker 3: the interviews that you do with your siblings, with Eileen 364 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 3: and with your two cousins slash siblings. You grew up 365 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 3: with them all of your remembered childhood, and you give 366 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 3: them really space and a chance in your book to 367 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 3: allow for their own feelings and their own reality, which 368 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 3: is I would imagine part of what ended up being 369 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 3: so healing about the book for all of you. 370 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of the things I recommend to everybody's 371 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 2: interview your siblings and you know those big touchstones in 372 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 2: your family history. How did they experience it? Because you 373 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 2: will learn a lot and it just diminishes any self 374 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 2: involvement because everybody he'll surround you is suffering as well. 375 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 2: I think it's a really important thing to do. We 376 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 2: are meaning makers as we go through life. We're story makers, 377 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: and stories can also use us. And the fact that 378 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 2: this tragedy blew our family apart meant that people were 379 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 2: making up stories about each other. And if you ask 380 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: any dysfunctional you know, anybody who's not getting along with 381 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 2: somebody in their family, they have a story about that 382 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 2: other person. So we had these stories about each other 383 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 2: that couldn't get underneath the pain. And that's why I 384 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 2: think interviewing your family so important. But stories can be 385 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 2: so dangerous. They're important when they work for you, when 386 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 2: they work for another person. But boy, and we've all 387 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 2: experienced this thing where somebody tells you just a little 388 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: something about somebody you haven't met. By the time you 389 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: meet that person, it's tainted already. And this is like 390 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: one hundredfold with your family. So it's the unwriting of 391 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 2: the fictions that we have about each other. And I 392 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: also felt like I had to unwrite my own fiction. 393 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: First I was Sarah Conover, and then I grew up 394 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 2: as Leslie Gagney, and then I wanted to drop the 395 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 2: Leslie Gagney because she had had this kind of chaotic childhood, 396 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: and so I became Sarah Conover. But those things are 397 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 2: all inside you. So all of that for me had 398 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 2: to get untangled, and I had to unwrite those fictions 399 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 2: as well. 400 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 3: Fifty eight years after the accident, after the vanishing, Sarah's 401 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: sister Eileen, has the idea that the family should come 402 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 3: together for a proper memorial to honor their parents and grandparents. 403 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: I had asked, fran why didn't you have a memorial? 404 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: I mean, they had been finally declared dead by the 405 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 2: insurance company, and she said, we just thought we'd discovered 406 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 2: them on a deserted island in the Caribbean. I kind 407 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 2: of blamed Gilligan's Island for this or something, you know, 408 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 2: But also that generation didn't have the tools to say, what, 409 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: you know, what are the constellations of grief? You know, 410 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 2: it's not just sadness, it's all this other stuff. And 411 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 2: she had to bunker her own grief. So we fifty 412 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 2: eight years after my sister and I held a memorial 413 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: and it was beautiful, and Fran was there, and my 414 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 2: cousins slash siblings. I grew up with the two. They 415 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 2: didn't come out for it, but Fran really stood tall. 416 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 2: And we had a memorial benchmad saying Pops and Dan, 417 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 2: Larry and Laurie's sail on and looking at golden gardens 418 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 2: out on Puget Sound. There just happened to be a 419 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 2: sailing regatta going on, with the boats, the horns coming 420 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 2: off the I forget what you call those boats, and 421 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 2: a beautiful, beautiful day. And it was lovely to hear 422 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: Fran and talk about what a gift we had been 423 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 2: when she lost her parents, that she was able to 424 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 2: adopt us and to raise us. And yeah, there was 425 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 2: finally some closure around that. 426 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 3: Here's Sarah reading one last passage from her powerful and 427 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 3: probing memoir. 428 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 2: Orphan. Every year I passed the moment when the sea 429 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 2: held and turned you, when exhausted, you surrendered. You lie 430 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 2: in wool, silks and taffetas heavy with water at the 431 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 2: bottom of my ceed or trunk. You hang on the wall, 432 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 2: crooked chipped, waiting to be straightened. How surprised I am 433 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 2: at your face is growing into my son and daughter. 434 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 2: Perhaps you are coming back to me now, given back 435 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: by the ocean in the bits left on the sand 436 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 2: you wash ashore, and I'd pick through the sea, lifting 437 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 2: shells to my ear and listening, fingering the sea scour 438 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 2: and colored beach glass, resting the fragile carpses of the 439 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 2: long dead in my palm. Little nothings to anyone else, 440 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 2: but we know better. Blood is our private See my 441 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 2: covenant with the two of you, my parents, remembering you. 442 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 2: I won't throw anything back. 443 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 3: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly's Accurr is 444 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 3: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 445 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 3: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 446 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 3: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 447 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 3: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 448 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 3: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 449 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 3: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd 450 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 3: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 451 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 3: check out my memoir Inheritance. 452 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, 453 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.