WEBVTT - Bureaucracy Disease. Lanhee Chen Talks to A&G 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:03.880 When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:06.560 know we're ready for you. Here are just a few 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:08.399 of the people at Metro to tell you how we're 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.320 doing our part to keep riders safe. We're cleaning like 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:18.919 nevill before, build greatly. You've found hassant, no mask, no 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:22.200 Metro need one. We have a few extras at Metro. 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.079 We're doing our part to keep the DC area moving. 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:27.720 Find out more at well mata dot com slash doing 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:31.400 our part so their guests we have on the show 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:32.960 on a regular basis where we think we need to 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:35.400 talk to this person for longer. There's not enough time here. Well, 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:37.440 here's the chance with one of our favorite guests. It's 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:43.800 extra large because four hours simply enough. This is Armstrong 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.239 and Getty extra large. Man. I don't know who that is, 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:49.960 but that guy's got good pipes. Pipes Listen, all who 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:55.560 have ears, friends, romans, countrymen. Finally a chance for an 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:58.120 extended chat with Lani j Chen, the David and Diane 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:00.840 Stiffy research fellow with the Hoover and Such, also the 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:03.400 director of Domestic Policy Studies and Lecture in the Public 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:06.800 Policy Program at Stanford University. So we've been wanting to 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.600 talk to you for a long time about government and 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.800 that sort of stuff and your knowledge base and uh, 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:16.160 and not particularly about at the time we're recording this 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:20.399 the biggest crisis of my lifetime, the coronavirus and everything else, 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:22.679 but some of it fits together. We've been wanting to 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:26.280 talk about bureaucracy, disease and a government this size and 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:28.200 whether it can react. And I don't know if you 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:30.720 saw the breakdown in the Wall Street Journal the other day, 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.280 in all the different ways the c d C and 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:37.000 the f d A and all different organizations have not 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:41.520 reacted to this very well. Too many regulations, too many layers, 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:44.760 too many rules. Um, is there anything that can be 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:46.960 done about that? Well, we get better at that, ever, 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:48.800 or is that just the product of a growing and 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:53.560 growing government. Well, we can get better at it. It's 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.360 going to require us to take a careful look at 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:58.600 what needs to be there and what doesn't. So you 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:00.680 guys have already hinted it. A few of the challenges 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.640 we have. One is you just look at healthcare as 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.920 an example. We've got so many different types of bureaucracy 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.520 that are involved. We've got so many different agencies and 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:14.240 make no mistake about it. There are functions that those 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:16.760 agencies serve which are important, so we don't want to 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:20.200 denigrate the functions that they play, but we we do 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:23.600 want to think about who actually has authority to do 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:27.560 things when something happens. And that's the challenge you have 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:32.399 when you have overlapping responsibilities. You have in healthcare, for example, 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:36.079 an agency that's designed to approve new drugs and new 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:39.640 therapeutics as the FDA. You have an agency that's designed 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:43.079 to be there to deal with the spread of disease 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.440 and control the spread of disease, that's the CDC. Then 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.399 you've got the Department of Health and Human Services, which 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.320 is theoretically over all of them, yet those agencies are 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:57.360 expected to operate somewhat independently. And then you have you know, 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.760 various other small agencies I'm forgetting about as well. So 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.800 we've got to figure out how to streamline all of this, 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.000 and it's going to take a sort of holistic approach, 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.800 and someone needs to come along and say, hey, let's 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.520 stop and let's do this, because what always happens in 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.960 government is the urgent crowds out the importance. So a 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:18.920 lot of steps we need to take and most certainly 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:20.960 a lot of changes that can be made. I have 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.160 a feeling there are some really fundamental forces at work here. 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.800 Our friend Tim Sandiford likes to talk about how in 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:31.440 general and government success is punished. I mean, if you 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.720 accomplish your goal having used only your budget, you have 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:38.160 budget taken away um and and failure is rewarded. You 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.360 get a bigger budget, you get more people. And there's 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:45.840 the question of defending turf every every Well, many bureaucrats 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.680 want nothing more than budget and people and turf, and 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.320 and if if that's their strongest impulse, then it's going 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:56.840 to be really hard to tear it down and rebuild it. 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:01.960 You're right so that that mind set is absolutely prevalent 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.080 in lots of parts of the federal government and state government, 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:09.200 and probably even city and local government. But the challenges 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:14.320 that how these bureaucrats measure success oftentimes is by how 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.480 much budget they get to your point, how many people 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.839 they have on their team, how big of a bureaucracy 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:23.400 they can create, what kind of process they can create 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:28.040 around that bureaucracy. And instead of measuring outcomes, we need 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.560 to be better about measuring outcomes. Our system of government 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:35.320 has to determine what is the effective best outcome we 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:37.520 want to get to, and then let's optimize for that 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.520 instead of saying what we really want is a bigger bureaucracy. 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:42.880 We really wanted a new government agency. I mean, I 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:47.640 think back to how much people like Elizabeth Warren celebrated 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:51.680 the creation of a government agency during the financial crisis, 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.240 and are there important things that that agency could be doing? Sure, 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:58.360 protecting consumers, that's an important thing, But did they ever 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:00.880 stop to ask for a minute, are there ways to 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.640 get there in the existing structure by making it leaner 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.920 and more efficient, versus, hey, let's just graft a whole 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.520 new federal agency onto other federal agencies that already exists. 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.360 So this kind of thinking, unfortunately, is prevalent in Washington. 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.880 And it's not just Democrats and progressives who think that way. 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:18.640 By the way, we got a lot of people who 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.720 are so called conservatives who are up there trying to 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.560 do many of the same things to create more and 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:28.159 more government. Because you get captured, you get captured by 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.920 Washington and the thinking of that place, and you end 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.680 up buying into the same kind of logic about what 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:36.760 it's going to take to get something done. I'm so 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.400 pessimistic that that will ever happen, though. Can you give 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.479 me an example of it ever happening in world history 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:47.480 where a giant bureaucracy actually uh shrinks and becomes leaner 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.200 and meaner and more effective unless it's forced to buy 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:54.360 a devastating war or maybe a virus. Well, that's exactly 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:56.680 what it is, right. There has to be some external 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.000 you know, that's the fancy political science word is exogenous. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.120 There's got to be some kind of external shock or 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:06.880 external factor that changes how people do business or changes 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.000 creates the predicate for people to say, you know what, 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.719 this isn't working so well. And I would bet there's been. 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:15.800 I mean even now right people are saying we need 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.880 to create some kind of commission to go study you 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.520 know why it is that we didn't have tests or 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:26.320 coronavirus early on. And my thing is, you know, why 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:30.039 not take some organ that's already in the government. We 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.480 have something called the Inspector General's office in each agency. 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:37.039 Why not have an existing office whose responsibility is to 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:39.880 study where things go wrong. Let's have them study it 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.520 and say, really, what about this agency worked and what 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:45.760 didn't and not be afraid to put out there. You 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:47.400 know what they are parts of this agency that have 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.120 to get cut. There's certain people that have to get cut, 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:52.400 and yeah, maybe there's certain other parts of the agency 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.680 where we need more people and more funding. So you're 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:59.400 suggesting a department of f ups. I could I could 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.720 run that. I've got a fair and fair amount of experience. 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:05.279 That would be I was gonna say that be every 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:07.960 agency of the federal government. I mean, if you went 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:10.760 if you went through and looked at all of the 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:13.280 ways in which part of the federal government have or 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:16.440 have not worked, you would see you would be shocked. 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:18.440 If we actually studied it and looked at it, you 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:20.640 would be shocked. But we need to be doing that, right. 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:22.920 We need to be assessing what's working and what's not, 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:24.920 but doing it on a regular basis, not just when 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.480 we have a once in a lifetime global pandemic. Now 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.920 I'm to answer Jack's question. I know several of the 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.000 Nordic states that a lot of people look to as 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:38.760 socialist paradisees have actually scaled way back on government spending 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.920 since their experiments of the sixties and seventies. That might 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:45.560 be an example, but the problem anytime you look at 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:50.160 those states, is that they are small, they are homogeneous, 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:52.640 and and you know it's a limited number of families. 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.240 They all know each other. I mean the countries are 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:59.640 almost that small. Yeah, And and they have significant limits 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.400 on who can come into the country. They have significantly 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.760 I mean we we talk about having you know, a 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:06.280 lot of people say, oh, we need a more open 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.960 immigration system. I'm all foreign immigration system that tries to 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:12.560 get the best and the brightest here to to help 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:14.760 our economy and do all that sort of stuff. But 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.760 you talked about these Nordic countries. Neither are not an 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:22.480 immigrants paradise, right. They are extremely closed societies. They have 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:27.040 a a very strong they're guided by a strong sense 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:31.880 of cultural and national identity. Uh so it's relatively easy 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:34.680 for them to do the kinds of things that they do. 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:39.239 America is I mean, we are a diverse, messy, beautiful 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.120 country in that way, and and so it's gonna be 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:44.439 a lot harder for us to do what they do, 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:46.280 nor do we want to do what they do. What 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.040 a lot of people don't realize is the level of 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.199 control that has to be exercised by the government, The 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.360 level of control that has to be exercised by society. 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.720 It is significant, and culturally in these countries it is 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.440 more well accepted. A lot of people, for example, use 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.480 Singapore as an example of a country. They have great 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:08.800 policy outcomes, a very efficient bureaucracy. They are extremely data 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:12.640 and results driven, but they are essentially living in a 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.360 quasi dictatorship, and people there are okay with it because 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:20.560 it's a benign dictatorship. Right. That structure would never work 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:22.959 in America. We have way too many people and we're 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.520 way too independent minded. And that's a good thing. It 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:27.880 would help if anybody was ever held to account for 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:31.000 any you know, mistakes, whether they were it was incompetence 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.240 or um, you know, they did it for bad reasons. 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:38.800 For instance, the c d C clearly misled everybody on 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.160 whether or not they had the ability to test for 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.120 this thing. I mean, the articles out there about this. 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:48.480 I'll bet anybody money nobody loses their job, somebody might 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:51.880 get reassigned to a different division. Nobody's ever held to 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:56.000 account for any screw ups. Well, and I'll tell you 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:58.920 there's a political overlay here too, right, because it's easy 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:00.760 enough to get rid of the person at the top 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:04.000 whoever runs the agency political appointee, get rid of them. 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.480 But when you start to dig into the bureaucracy, there 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.640 surely are people within the bureaucracy who, to your point, 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:15.640 did not did not act either appropriately or well enough 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:19.679 or efficiently in this situation. But the minute you start 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.440 to dig in there, and the minute you start to 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.240 think about it, you get accused of wanting to attack 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:27.960 science or wanting to attack the civil service, when the 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:32.560 reality is, we have to be absolutely clear about why 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:36.640 mistakes happen, and we cannot be afraid to fix them. 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:41.480 And uh, you know, the politics have become so toxic 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.079 and so part of it in our country that any 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:47.320 effort to do that is seen, Oh, well, you're you're 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.760 just You're just a trumper. You're just somebody out there 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.640 who you know, wants to try and advance a conservative 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.920 policy agenda. Look, I'm just trying to say, let's figure 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:57.720 out what went wrong and let's fix it. I don't 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.560 care who's responsible for it. Let's get to the to 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.480 the core of responsibility and let's fix the problem. But 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.000 it's hard to have that conversation given the politics of 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:08.240 where we are right now. Well, I agree with you, 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:11.320 completely that there are plenty of Republicans who want to 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.439 grow the government, just different parts of the government. Um, 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.000 But it seems to me it is mostly voters on 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:21.800 the left who seem to have this knee jerk defense 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:25.920 of government and government programs and and maybe it's because 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.480 of the lefty voters affection for unions or something like that. 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:33.360 But it boggles the mind of a lot of us 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.000 that so many people have as much faith as they 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:41.199 do in government bureaucracies and don't see the the waste 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.920 and the abuse, and the transigence and and and the 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.360 rest of it. I have you ever done a study 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.440 of that, I mean, really gone into people's worldview why 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:58.040 some are so charitable towards government, you know, misfunction. Yeah, 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:00.920 I haven't studied it myself. Health, but I will say 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:03.520 that that people who look at this generally conclude a 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:07.559 couple of things. So the first is that the belief 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:11.120 in government is born out of a mistrust of the 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:17.440 private sector or a belief that civil society, nonprofit institutions, churches, 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:22.680 charitable institutions UH in addition to the private sector, are 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:28.560 incapable or fundamentally have their UH incentives misaligned In a way, 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.320 and so government is in a much better place to 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.040 do it. I mean. A perfect example of this are 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.640 all of the people on the left who have embraced 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.160 single payer health care, who have embraced Medicare for all, 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.640 And what do you always hear them saying? You get 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.640 them saying we cannot trust the insurance companies. We cannot 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:49.520 trust private sector entities to deal with our health care system. 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.280 We cannot trust doctors who are who are out there 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:55.960 for their own profit, in their own gain. We have 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:59.160 to socialize all of this because government knows better. It 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:04.360 is just a It goes to a misunderstanding of what 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.520 has made America great. Not I mean not to get 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:09.680 this political. I don't. I don't mean to put it 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.079 in the Trump fame, but literally, what has made America 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.040 great over these years has been the existence of a 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:18.320 system that has lifted more people out of poverty and 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.440 more people out of a lack of opportunity than any 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.400 other economics, a system in the history of mankind, and 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.080 sort of saying we don't want that system. Instead, we 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.960 want to go to a system where government controls the 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:36.839 means of production, government controls how resources are allocated. And 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:39.760 I think it's born out of a genuine belief guys, 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:43.200 that that works better than the private sector. And that's 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:45.040 why I think a lot of people on the left 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.959 do have a instinctive answer for everything, which is, well, 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:50.800 if only the government would get involved, and only the 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.960 government would be in charge, if only you bureaucrats and 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:58.199 people who are quote dispassionate arbiters would be involved. I've 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:00.800 heard this over and over again, but but it just 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:06.760 blies a understanding of of really what is made America prosperous, 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:11.400 the end of human nature. I don't know what their 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:15.080 world experiences that has led them to believe this, because 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:19.040 my world experience has led me a different direction. Well, 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.360 it's the it's the world experience that leads people like 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:25.360 Bernie Sanders to say we need a Cuban style education system, right. 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.960 I mean, it is a It is either a misapprehension 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:35.720 of history or a wilful, deliberate effort to subvert an 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:41.640 understanding of history in favor of of of a particular agenda. 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:43.520 I mean, that's the only thing that can explain it. 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:46.200 Either you just don't don't know the history, don't understand it, 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:50.400 or don't want to. Oh yeah, it's wishful thinking. It's 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.840 a no, I'm sure we can get it right this time. 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:56.880 I'm sure this will work. That I think is just ridiculous. 0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:59.920 But I wonder if it's this fundamental. A lot of 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.280 these questions comes down to the difference between people who 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.480 believe there should be equality of outcome versus those of 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.720 us who believe there should be equality of opportunity, and 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.120 and and if you know, because you're never going to 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.680 get equality of outcome out of the private sector, out 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.760 or out of any natural function of life. But why 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.200 why is that? Just as simple as you have you 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.000 been to the post office? Have you been to FedEx? 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:27.680 Have you noticed how they bust their acid fed x 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:29.520 to make sure you're a happy customer because you're a 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:31.880 happy paying customer. Have you noticed how at the post 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.400 office you regularly run into place They don't care if 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.560 you never come back. It doesn't make any difference to them. 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.600 In fact, they prefer you did leave. That means eloquent. 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:45.080 Is Lincoln's Gettysburg address and shorter? We only experience you need, 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:50.520 isn't it. Yeah? Well right, And so this is also 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.240 like the d m V, the perfect example of that. Right, 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.400 Why do people pay for triple A, ton't have to 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:57.200 wait in the line of the d m V. Right, 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.200 and and not that not that the triple A is 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.520 a is a paragon of efficiency and effectiveness, but compared 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:04.200 to the d m V and en sure does look 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:06.880 like it, right, I mean so so so it's a 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:11.160 great point, which is, if we believe in a society 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:15.200 where resources have to be distributed equally, if we believe 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.160 in equality of outcome, the folks who are in favor 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.400 of socialism or in favor of a communist system, you know, 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:24.560 they've got it right. That probably is the only way 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:29.680 to ensure the exact equivalent distribution of goods. And it 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.720 seems to me that there are some on the left 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.760 now who are more openly embracing that point of view, 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.000 who are saying, look, actually, yeah, we we we we 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:43.760 do need equality of outcome as opposed Yeah, I mean, 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:47.479 whereas if you look at if you look at at 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.920 the history of our country, and you look at what 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:53.120 the founders and what great political theorists over the years 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.880 have talked about, what you see is is a is 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:01.160 a coherence around wanting to have to ensure that people 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.320 have the same shot at success which is why you 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.520 put in place rules. Right, the only reason we have 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.240 laws and regulate that the only reason, one of the 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.240 biggest reasons you have laws and regulation is to make 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.399 sure that people are playing by the same rules. And 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.280 are we angry when people don't play by those rules? Absolutely? 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:18.720 Are we angry when there's croniasm, Yes, and we should be. 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.480 But but the answer has always been, let's give people 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.080 a fair shot to compete and then let's see what happens. 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:27.680 And that, by necessity, is going to mean that we're 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.520 going to have differences in outcome and and and is 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:32.760 it sad that there are differences in outcome? I don't 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.360 know that it's sad. I think it's reality. I think 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:37.199 it's the reality of the system we have, and I 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:41.440 think it's the best economic system that mankind has ever seen. Yeah, 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:43.560 I don't know. You know, I have two kids. If 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:45.800 one of them ends up making twice as much money 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:47.320 as the other one, I don't I'm not going to 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.719 feel like that's sad for the one who makes less. 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.240 It's just that the direction they went with the talents 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.680 they had in life decisions, right, Yeah, And I mean 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:02.560 you know that that that you know should when should 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.320 government act? Right, And the answer is, there are times 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.399 when government has to act because the uh, you know, 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.200 because the rules aren't fair. Okay, sure, government should act 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.320 to change the rules to make sure they're fair. Uh. 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.600 In times when the system gets overburdened by some things 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.159 that we haven't expected, and we expect our government to 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:24.320 step in. Why with the coronavirus situation, government steps in 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:26.600 and says, Okay, we're gonna put in place some regulations 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.960 to help keep people safe. That makes sense. But the 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.960 notion that in the everyday functioning, what we really need 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:37.280 is more government, I just fundamentally disagree with that notion. 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.560 And I just think history suggests that that will not 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.000 lead and not lead us to a great place. Well, 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:47.160 let's get back to the question of bureaucracy and dysfunction 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:51.960 and bloat in transigence and all that. There obviously need 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:54.400 to be a new There needs to be a new 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:59.880 set of incentives and disincentives laid over government or sprayed 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:04.480 into the buildings or something some sort of fumigation. Um. 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:09.000 What just on a basic level, if you were you know, 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:13.440 president or advisor to a president and and that president decided, 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.800 and my god, I'd vote for him for a third term. 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:18.560 If they did this, they said, listen, my main mission 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:21.960 is going to make is to make the federal government lean. 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:26.800 And mean, what sort of incentives and disincentives would you suggest? 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.119 What would that look like? Yeah, you know, I always 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:32.520 think it's great to go back to first principles. So 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:35.440 you start with the basic question, which is what do 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:37.439 we want government to do and where we where do 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:41.359 we want it to act? And set out a set 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:45.520 of priorities and goals and figure out how to assess 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:49.439 success against those goals, figure out how you need to 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:53.560 staff a team to reach those goals. And then take 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:55.520 a look at the reality and see what you have 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:58.840 and compare X with Y, and I guarantee you they'll 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.640 look nothing alike when you're talking about the US government. Yeah, 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:03.480 they they're not. You know, you're not going to see 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:08.040 a similarity between what's needed and what actually exists. And 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.919 then go out there and actually begin to make those changes. 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:12.720 And now part of the challenges, you know, we got 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:16.000 all sorts of rules in place about civil service protections 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.520 and who can and can't be fired. And I understand 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:20.199 we got all of that, and that part of it 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.600 might be we need to take a serious look at 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:27.560 civil service rules. Yes they are we really promoting the 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:31.840 best in the bright Yeah, that's that That's probably an 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.280 easy question. An I'm with FDR on that question. That's 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:37.119 one of the few questions i'm with him on. He 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:41.800 believed it was an athema to efficient. When you're ready 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.320 to ride Metro, we want you to know we're ready 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:46.560 for you. Here are just a few of the people 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:48.720 at Metro to tell you how we're doing our part 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:52.440 to keep riders safe. We're cleaning like Nevil before half 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:58.439 builded greatly. You're a found han sanitizing, no mask, no 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:01.720 Metro need one. We have a few extras at Metro. 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:04.560 We're doing our part to keep the DC area moving. 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.240 Find out more at well mata dot com slash doing 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:13.320 our part for all your foodies out there. I'm unwrapping 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.840 a McDonald steak, egg and cheese bagel. Look at this 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:19.840 steak and the juice running down the side. Get a 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:23.040 little bit on a wrapper here, m and then the 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.280 fluffy egg and real cheese folded over the side, looking 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:30.520 just so good. Mmm mmm, griled onions and about a 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.679 bagel too. Thumbs up. A McDonald steak, egg and cheese 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:38.280 bagel for breakfast. Love it m more bump up. I 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:43.200 participate in McDonald's government governance. But anyway, and I'll tell 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.800 you another challenge we have, which is beyond the civil 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.399 service rules, we have public sector employee unions in the 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:53.320 United States, which to me, uh, you know, I think 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:56.679 you talk. We can have a conversation about unions and 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:58.800