1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: know we're ready for you. Here are just a few 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: of the people at Metro to tell you how we're 4 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: doing our part to keep riders safe. We're cleaning like 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: nevill before, build greatly. You've found hassant, no mask, no 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: Metro need one. We have a few extras at Metro. 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: We're doing our part to keep the DC area moving. 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: Find out more at well mata dot com slash doing 9 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: our part so their guests we have on the show 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: on a regular basis where we think we need to 11 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: talk to this person for longer. There's not enough time here. Well, 12 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: here's the chance with one of our favorite guests. It's 13 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: extra large because four hours simply enough. This is Armstrong 14 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: and Getty extra large. Man. I don't know who that is, 15 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: but that guy's got good pipes. Pipes Listen, all who 16 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: have ears, friends, romans, countrymen. Finally a chance for an 17 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: extended chat with Lani j Chen, the David and Diane 18 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: Stiffy research fellow with the Hoover and Such, also the 19 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: director of Domestic Policy Studies and Lecture in the Public 20 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: Policy Program at Stanford University. So we've been wanting to 21 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: talk to you for a long time about government and 22 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff and your knowledge base and uh, 23 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: and not particularly about at the time we're recording this 24 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: the biggest crisis of my lifetime, the coronavirus and everything else, 25 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: but some of it fits together. We've been wanting to 26 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: talk about bureaucracy, disease and a government this size and 27 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: whether it can react. And I don't know if you 28 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: saw the breakdown in the Wall Street Journal the other day, 29 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: in all the different ways the c d C and 30 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: the f d A and all different organizations have not 31 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: reacted to this very well. Too many regulations, too many layers, 32 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: too many rules. Um, is there anything that can be 33 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: done about that? Well, we get better at that, ever, 34 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: or is that just the product of a growing and 35 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: growing government. Well, we can get better at it. It's 36 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: going to require us to take a careful look at 37 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: what needs to be there and what doesn't. So you 38 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: guys have already hinted it. A few of the challenges 39 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: we have. One is you just look at healthcare as 40 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: an example. We've got so many different types of bureaucracy 41 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: that are involved. We've got so many different agencies and 42 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: make no mistake about it. There are functions that those 43 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: agencies serve which are important, so we don't want to 44 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: denigrate the functions that they play, but we we do 45 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: want to think about who actually has authority to do 46 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: things when something happens. And that's the challenge you have 47 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 1: when you have overlapping responsibilities. You have in healthcare, for example, 48 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 1: an agency that's designed to approve new drugs and new 49 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: therapeutics as the FDA. You have an agency that's designed 50 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: to be there to deal with the spread of disease 51 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: and control the spread of disease, that's the CDC. Then 52 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,399 Speaker 1: you've got the Department of Health and Human Services, which 53 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: is theoretically over all of them, yet those agencies are 54 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: expected to operate somewhat independently. And then you have you know, 55 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: various other small agencies I'm forgetting about as well. So 56 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: we've got to figure out how to streamline all of this, 57 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: and it's going to take a sort of holistic approach, 58 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: and someone needs to come along and say, hey, let's 59 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: stop and let's do this, because what always happens in 60 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: government is the urgent crowds out the importance. So a 61 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: lot of steps we need to take and most certainly 62 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: a lot of changes that can be made. I have 63 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: a feeling there are some really fundamental forces at work here. 64 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: Our friend Tim Sandiford likes to talk about how in 65 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: general and government success is punished. I mean, if you 66 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: accomplish your goal having used only your budget, you have 67 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: budget taken away um and and failure is rewarded. You 68 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: get a bigger budget, you get more people. And there's 69 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: the question of defending turf every every Well, many bureaucrats 70 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: want nothing more than budget and people and turf, and 71 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: and if if that's their strongest impulse, then it's going 72 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: to be really hard to tear it down and rebuild it. 73 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: You're right so that that mind set is absolutely prevalent 74 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: in lots of parts of the federal government and state government, 75 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: and probably even city and local government. But the challenges 76 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: that how these bureaucrats measure success oftentimes is by how 77 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: much budget they get to your point, how many people 78 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: they have on their team, how big of a bureaucracy 79 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: they can create, what kind of process they can create 80 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: around that bureaucracy. And instead of measuring outcomes, we need 81 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: to be better about measuring outcomes. Our system of government 82 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: has to determine what is the effective best outcome we 83 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: want to get to, and then let's optimize for that 84 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: instead of saying what we really want is a bigger bureaucracy. 85 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: We really wanted a new government agency. I mean, I 86 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: think back to how much people like Elizabeth Warren celebrated 87 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: the creation of a government agency during the financial crisis, 88 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: and are there important things that that agency could be doing? Sure, 89 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: protecting consumers, that's an important thing, But did they ever 90 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: stop to ask for a minute, are there ways to 91 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: get there in the existing structure by making it leaner 92 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: and more efficient, versus, hey, let's just graft a whole 93 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: new federal agency onto other federal agencies that already exists. 94 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: So this kind of thinking, unfortunately, is prevalent in Washington. 95 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: And it's not just Democrats and progressives who think that way. 96 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: By the way, we got a lot of people who 97 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: are so called conservatives who are up there trying to 98 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: do many of the same things to create more and 99 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: more government. Because you get captured, you get captured by 100 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: Washington and the thinking of that place, and you end 101 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: up buying into the same kind of logic about what 102 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: it's going to take to get something done. I'm so 103 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: pessimistic that that will ever happen, though. Can you give 104 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: me an example of it ever happening in world history 105 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: where a giant bureaucracy actually uh shrinks and becomes leaner 106 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: and meaner and more effective unless it's forced to buy 107 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: a devastating war or maybe a virus. Well, that's exactly 108 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: what it is, right. There has to be some external 109 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: you know, that's the fancy political science word is exogenous. 110 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: There's got to be some kind of external shock or 111 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: external factor that changes how people do business or changes 112 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: creates the predicate for people to say, you know what, 113 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: this isn't working so well. And I would bet there's been. 114 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: I mean even now right people are saying we need 115 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: to create some kind of commission to go study you 116 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: know why it is that we didn't have tests or 117 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: coronavirus early on. And my thing is, you know, why 118 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: not take some organ that's already in the government. We 119 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: have something called the Inspector General's office in each agency. 120 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: Why not have an existing office whose responsibility is to 121 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: study where things go wrong. Let's have them study it 122 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: and say, really, what about this agency worked and what 123 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: didn't and not be afraid to put out there. You 124 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: know what they are parts of this agency that have 125 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: to get cut. There's certain people that have to get cut, 126 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: and yeah, maybe there's certain other parts of the agency 127 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: where we need more people and more funding. So you're 128 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: suggesting a department of f ups. I could I could 129 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: run that. I've got a fair and fair amount of experience. 130 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: That would be I was gonna say that be every 131 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: agency of the federal government. I mean, if you went 132 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: if you went through and looked at all of the 133 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: ways in which part of the federal government have or 134 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: have not worked, you would see you would be shocked. 135 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: If we actually studied it and looked at it, you 136 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: would be shocked. But we need to be doing that, right. 137 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: We need to be assessing what's working and what's not, 138 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: but doing it on a regular basis, not just when 139 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: we have a once in a lifetime global pandemic. Now 140 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: I'm to answer Jack's question. I know several of the 141 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: Nordic states that a lot of people look to as 142 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: socialist paradisees have actually scaled way back on government spending 143 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: since their experiments of the sixties and seventies. That might 144 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: be an example, but the problem anytime you look at 145 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: those states, is that they are small, they are homogeneous, 146 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: and and you know it's a limited number of families. 147 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: They all know each other. I mean the countries are 148 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: almost that small. Yeah, And and they have significant limits 149 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: on who can come into the country. They have significantly 150 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: I mean we we talk about having you know, a 151 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: lot of people say, oh, we need a more open 152 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: immigration system. I'm all foreign immigration system that tries to 153 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: get the best and the brightest here to to help 154 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: our economy and do all that sort of stuff. But 155 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: you talked about these Nordic countries. Neither are not an 156 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: immigrants paradise, right. They are extremely closed societies. They have 157 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: a a very strong they're guided by a strong sense 158 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: of cultural and national identity. Uh so it's relatively easy 159 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: for them to do the kinds of things that they do. 160 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,239 Speaker 1: America is I mean, we are a diverse, messy, beautiful 161 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: country in that way, and and so it's gonna be 162 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: a lot harder for us to do what they do, 163 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: nor do we want to do what they do. What 164 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't realize is the level of 165 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 1: control that has to be exercised by the government, The 166 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: level of control that has to be exercised by society. 167 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: It is significant, and culturally in these countries it is 168 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: more well accepted. A lot of people, for example, use 169 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: Singapore as an example of a country. They have great 170 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: policy outcomes, a very efficient bureaucracy. They are extremely data 171 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: and results driven, but they are essentially living in a 172 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: quasi dictatorship, and people there are okay with it because 173 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: it's a benign dictatorship. Right. That structure would never work 174 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: in America. We have way too many people and we're 175 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: way too independent minded. And that's a good thing. It 176 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: would help if anybody was ever held to account for 177 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: any you know, mistakes, whether they were it was incompetence 178 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: or um, you know, they did it for bad reasons. 179 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: For instance, the c d C clearly misled everybody on 180 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: whether or not they had the ability to test for 181 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: this thing. I mean, the articles out there about this. 182 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: I'll bet anybody money nobody loses their job, somebody might 183 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: get reassigned to a different division. Nobody's ever held to 184 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: account for any screw ups. Well, and I'll tell you 185 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: there's a political overlay here too, right, because it's easy 186 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: enough to get rid of the person at the top 187 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: whoever runs the agency political appointee, get rid of them. 188 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: But when you start to dig into the bureaucracy, there 189 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: surely are people within the bureaucracy who, to your point, 190 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: did not did not act either appropriately or well enough 191 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: or efficiently in this situation. But the minute you start 192 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: to dig in there, and the minute you start to 193 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: think about it, you get accused of wanting to attack 194 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: science or wanting to attack the civil service, when the 195 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: reality is, we have to be absolutely clear about why 196 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: mistakes happen, and we cannot be afraid to fix them. 197 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, the politics have become so toxic 198 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 1: and so part of it in our country that any 199 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: effort to do that is seen, Oh, well, you're you're 200 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: just You're just a trumper. You're just somebody out there 201 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: who you know, wants to try and advance a conservative 202 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: policy agenda. Look, I'm just trying to say, let's figure 203 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: out what went wrong and let's fix it. I don't 204 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: care who's responsible for it. Let's get to the to 205 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: the core of responsibility and let's fix the problem. But 206 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: it's hard to have that conversation given the politics of 207 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: where we are right now. Well, I agree with you, 208 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: completely that there are plenty of Republicans who want to 209 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 1: grow the government, just different parts of the government. Um, 210 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: But it seems to me it is mostly voters on 211 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: the left who seem to have this knee jerk defense 212 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: of government and government programs and and maybe it's because 213 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: of the lefty voters affection for unions or something like that. 214 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: But it boggles the mind of a lot of us 215 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: that so many people have as much faith as they 216 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: do in government bureaucracies and don't see the the waste 217 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: and the abuse, and the transigence and and and the 218 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: rest of it. I have you ever done a study 219 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: of that, I mean, really gone into people's worldview why 220 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: some are so charitable towards government, you know, misfunction. Yeah, 221 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: I haven't studied it myself. Health, but I will say 222 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: that that people who look at this generally conclude a 223 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: couple of things. So the first is that the belief 224 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: in government is born out of a mistrust of the 225 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: private sector or a belief that civil society, nonprofit institutions, churches, 226 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: charitable institutions UH in addition to the private sector, are 227 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: incapable or fundamentally have their UH incentives misaligned In a way, 228 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: and so government is in a much better place to 229 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: do it. I mean. A perfect example of this are 230 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: all of the people on the left who have embraced 231 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: single payer health care, who have embraced Medicare for all, 232 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: And what do you always hear them saying? You get 233 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: them saying we cannot trust the insurance companies. We cannot 234 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: trust private sector entities to deal with our health care system. 235 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: We cannot trust doctors who are who are out there 236 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: for their own profit, in their own gain. We have 237 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: to socialize all of this because government knows better. It 238 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: is just a It goes to a misunderstanding of what 239 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: has made America great. Not I mean not to get 240 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: this political. I don't. I don't mean to put it 241 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: in the Trump fame, but literally, what has made America 242 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: great over these years has been the existence of a 243 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: system that has lifted more people out of poverty and 244 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: more people out of a lack of opportunity than any 245 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: other economics, a system in the history of mankind, and 246 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: sort of saying we don't want that system. Instead, we 247 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: want to go to a system where government controls the 248 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 1: means of production, government controls how resources are allocated. And 249 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: I think it's born out of a genuine belief guys, 250 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: that that works better than the private sector. And that's 251 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: why I think a lot of people on the left 252 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 1: do have a instinctive answer for everything, which is, well, 253 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: if only the government would get involved, and only the 254 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: government would be in charge, if only you bureaucrats and 255 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: people who are quote dispassionate arbiters would be involved. I've 256 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: heard this over and over again, but but it just 257 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: blies a understanding of of really what is made America prosperous, 258 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: the end of human nature. I don't know what their 259 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: world experiences that has led them to believe this, because 260 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: my world experience has led me a different direction. Well, 261 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: it's the it's the world experience that leads people like 262 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders to say we need a Cuban style education system, right. 263 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it is a It is either a misapprehension 264 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: of history or a wilful, deliberate effort to subvert an 265 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: understanding of history in favor of of of a particular agenda. 266 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the only thing that can explain it. 267 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: Either you just don't don't know the history, don't understand it, 268 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: or don't want to. Oh yeah, it's wishful thinking. It's 269 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: a no, I'm sure we can get it right this time. 270 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: I'm sure this will work. That I think is just ridiculous. 271 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: But I wonder if it's this fundamental. A lot of 272 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: these questions comes down to the difference between people who 273 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: believe there should be equality of outcome versus those of 274 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: us who believe there should be equality of opportunity, and 275 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: and and if you know, because you're never going to 276 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: get equality of outcome out of the private sector, out 277 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: or out of any natural function of life. But why 278 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: why is that? Just as simple as you have you 279 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: been to the post office? Have you been to FedEx? 280 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: Have you noticed how they bust their acid fed x 281 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: to make sure you're a happy customer because you're a 282 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: happy paying customer. Have you noticed how at the post 283 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: office you regularly run into place They don't care if 284 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: you never come back. It doesn't make any difference to them. 285 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: In fact, they prefer you did leave. That means eloquent. 286 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: Is Lincoln's Gettysburg address and shorter? We only experience you need, 287 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah? Well right, And so this is also 288 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: like the d m V, the perfect example of that. Right, 289 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: Why do people pay for triple A, ton't have to 290 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: wait in the line of the d m V. Right, 291 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: and and not that not that the triple A is 292 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: a is a paragon of efficiency and effectiveness, but compared 293 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: to the d m V and en sure does look 294 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: like it, right, I mean so so so it's a 295 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: great point, which is, if we believe in a society 296 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: where resources have to be distributed equally, if we believe 297 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: in equality of outcome, the folks who are in favor 298 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: of socialism or in favor of a communist system, you know, 299 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: they've got it right. That probably is the only way 300 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: to ensure the exact equivalent distribution of goods. And it 301 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: seems to me that there are some on the left 302 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: now who are more openly embracing that point of view, 303 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: who are saying, look, actually, yeah, we we we we 304 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: do need equality of outcome as opposed Yeah, I mean, 305 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,479 Speaker 1: whereas if you look at if you look at at 306 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: the history of our country, and you look at what 307 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: the founders and what great political theorists over the years 308 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: have talked about, what you see is is a is 309 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: a coherence around wanting to have to ensure that people 310 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: have the same shot at success which is why you 311 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: put in place rules. Right, the only reason we have 312 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: laws and regulate that the only reason, one of the 313 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: biggest reasons you have laws and regulation is to make 314 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: sure that people are playing by the same rules. And 315 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: are we angry when people don't play by those rules? Absolutely? 316 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: Are we angry when there's croniasm, Yes, and we should be. 317 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: But but the answer has always been, let's give people 318 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: a fair shot to compete and then let's see what happens. 319 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: And that, by necessity, is going to mean that we're 320 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: going to have differences in outcome and and and is 321 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: it sad that there are differences in outcome? I don't 322 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 1: know that it's sad. I think it's reality. I think 323 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: it's the reality of the system we have, and I 324 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: think it's the best economic system that mankind has ever seen. Yeah, 325 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, I have two kids. If 326 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: one of them ends up making twice as much money 327 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: as the other one, I don't I'm not going to 328 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,719 Speaker 1: feel like that's sad for the one who makes less. 329 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: It's just that the direction they went with the talents 330 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: they had in life decisions, right, Yeah, And I mean 331 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: you know that that that you know should when should 332 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: government act? Right, And the answer is, there are times 333 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: when government has to act because the uh, you know, 334 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: because the rules aren't fair. Okay, sure, government should act 335 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: to change the rules to make sure they're fair. Uh. 336 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: In times when the system gets overburdened by some things 337 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: that we haven't expected, and we expect our government to 338 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: step in. Why with the coronavirus situation, government steps in 339 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: and says, Okay, we're gonna put in place some regulations 340 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: to help keep people safe. That makes sense. But the 341 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: notion that in the everyday functioning, what we really need 342 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: is more government, I just fundamentally disagree with that notion. 343 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: And I just think history suggests that that will not 344 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: lead and not lead us to a great place. Well, 345 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: let's get back to the question of bureaucracy and dysfunction 346 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: and bloat in transigence and all that. There obviously need 347 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: to be a new There needs to be a new 348 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: set of incentives and disincentives laid over government or sprayed 349 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: into the buildings or something some sort of fumigation. Um. 350 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: What just on a basic level, if you were you know, 351 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: president or advisor to a president and and that president decided, 352 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: and my god, I'd vote for him for a third term. 353 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: If they did this, they said, listen, my main mission 354 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: is going to make is to make the federal government lean. 355 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: And mean, what sort of incentives and disincentives would you suggest? 356 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: What would that look like? Yeah, you know, I always 357 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: think it's great to go back to first principles. So 358 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: you start with the basic question, which is what do 359 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: we want government to do and where we where do 360 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: we want it to act? And set out a set 361 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: of priorities and goals and figure out how to assess 362 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: success against those goals, figure out how you need to 363 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: staff a team to reach those goals. And then take 364 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: a look at the reality and see what you have 365 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: and compare X with Y, and I guarantee you they'll 366 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: look nothing alike when you're talking about the US government. Yeah, 367 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: they they're not. You know, you're not going to see 368 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: a similarity between what's needed and what actually exists. And 369 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: then go out there and actually begin to make those changes. 370 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: And now part of the challenges, you know, we got 371 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: all sorts of rules in place about civil service protections 372 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: and who can and can't be fired. And I understand 373 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: we got all of that, and that part of it 374 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: might be we need to take a serious look at 375 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: civil service rules. Yes they are we really promoting the 376 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: best in the bright Yeah, that's that That's probably an 377 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: easy question. An I'm with FDR on that question. That's 378 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: one of the few questions i'm with him on. He 379 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: believed it was an athema to efficient. When you're ready 380 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: to ride Metro, we want you to know we're ready 381 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: for you. Here are just a few of the people 382 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: at Metro to tell you how we're doing our part 383 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: to keep riders safe. We're cleaning like Nevil before half 384 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 1: builded greatly. You're a found han sanitizing, no mask, no 385 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: Metro need one. We have a few extras at Metro. 386 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: We're doing our part to keep the DC area moving. 387 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: Find out more at well mata dot com slash doing 388 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: our part for all your foodies out there. I'm unwrapping 389 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: a McDonald steak, egg and cheese bagel. Look at this 390 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: steak and the juice running down the side. Get a 391 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: little bit on a wrapper here, m and then the 392 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: fluffy egg and real cheese folded over the side, looking 393 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: just so good. Mmm mmm, griled onions and about a 394 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: bagel too. Thumbs up. A McDonald steak, egg and cheese 395 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: bagel for breakfast. Love it m more bump up. I 396 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: participate in McDonald's government governance. But anyway, and I'll tell 397 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: you another challenge we have, which is beyond the civil 398 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: service rules, we have public sector employee unions in the 399 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: United States, which to me, uh, you know, I think 400 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: you talk. We can have a conversation about unions and 401 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: and the good that they've done in our society. And 402 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: surely there was a point at which they were being 403 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: very productive and important. And I think in the private sector, 404 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: I can understand the desire to represent a set of 405 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: workers and have that relationship be governed by a set 406 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: of rules. But why is it that we have such 407 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: a huge role for public sector unions. We are essentially 408 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: saying that we have developed a system so that the 409 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: people who are working for the government can bargain against 410 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: the government. You've got people who are in there essentially 411 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: represented with interests that are that are adverse to the 412 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: taxpayer interests. That to me makes no sense at all. 413 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: The power and the scope and the reach of public 414 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: sector unions is has reached a point of the US. 415 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: But we've got to address it well, particularly because in California, 416 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: is a great example of this that the diffuse interests 417 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: of the voters are are are not nearly as powerful 418 00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: in the actual hearing rooms as the union representatives. And 419 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: so you have the best and brightest and smartest there 420 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: in the hearing room arguing like crazy for one point 421 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: of view, and then there's just this vague no you know, 422 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: the idea that the voters really want to get their 423 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: pocketbooks protected, and there's just an imbalance. And then as 424 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: it gets even worse in California, you have union lawyers 425 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: supported by the government unions, the public employee unions, winning 426 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: the offices and then negotiating with the people they replaced 427 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: for the public employee union deals. It's just it's it's 428 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: mobbed up. Yeah, well that's I mean, this is exactly 429 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: the challenge you you've identified it, which is that you 430 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: get this incestuous system that comes into place and it's 431 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: not clear who's actually representing the interests of the representative right, 432 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: because you have public officials who get captured by interests 433 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: like like the public sector unions. So if public sector 434 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: unions are a huge donor to Democrats in California for 435 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: state wide office, what do you end up with you 436 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: end up with statewide office holders who are remarkably uh 437 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: responsive the union bosses, but not particularly responsive to the taxpayer. 438 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: And that to me is a huge problem, right when 439 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: you're talking about people who are supposed to When you 440 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: ask who is supposed to protect the interests of taxpayers, 441 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: the answer is the people who are the people who 442 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: are elected by taxpayers, but they're not doing their job. 443 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: We have a big problem here. We have a system 444 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: that essentially is perpetuating itself. And to get back to 445 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: the original issue, you guys raise around bureaucratic bloat and 446 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: around why it is that our bureaucracy doesn't function better. 447 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: The answer is because no one's holding them to account, 448 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: certainly no one that's supposed to be holding them to account. 449 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: We send the same old people in California, for example, 450 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: back to Sacramento. But you can go to any state capital, 451 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: or you can even go to Congress and see this. 452 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: We send the same people back over and over again, 453 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: and they are insistent on preserving the status quo, which 454 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: clearly is not working. I got a question out of nowhere, um, 455 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: and we have this opportunity with the podcast to ask 456 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: you this. I like asking smart people this question because 457 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: I like to read, but I want to read the 458 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: right stuff. What are a couple of your favorite, like 459 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: all time books? Um, to make a person smarter about 460 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: all this sort of stuff, government, society, culture or whatever. 461 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: You know. It's funny my my kids make fun of 462 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 1: me because they say I don't read that much, because 463 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: they don't want to see me reading books, because I'm 464 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: always reading, you know, news or stuff that comes up online. 465 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: I'm always have to tell my son, I'm staring at 466 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: my phone. I'm reading a book. I just want you 467 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: to know that because you know, because I grew up. 468 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: You know, you see your parents reading books, and you're 469 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 1: gonna maybe become a reader. They see me staring at 470 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: my phone. I could be on Facebook, I could be 471 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: playing candy, but I'm I'm I'm reading. But anyway, back 472 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: to your book. Yeah, I you know, um, there are 473 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: pieces of fiction over the years that have been very 474 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: influential in my life. And I'll tell you I don't 475 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: want to freak anyone out, but my favorite book growing 476 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: up was a book called four by George Orwell, which 477 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: everybody you know, hopefully everybody's read, right, And the reason 478 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: why it's so important to have read that book is 479 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: because it gives you a sense of just how overwhelming 480 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 1: government can be. And I, by the way, people will 481 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: will I often get the question, how did you become 482 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: a conservative or how did you decide that you were 483 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: conservatively disposed? And a lot of it has to come 484 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: with reading that book and reading more and more about 485 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: societies where where government does play a big rule. And 486 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: uh so that book was actually quite influential. So four 487 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: is one. It's not it's not a particularly tough read, 488 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: but I think it's a really important read. Uh and 489 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: uh and it's one that's been influential well. And it's 490 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: fairly depressing too, So if you're feeling overly cheery that 491 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: it's a good one. Yes, yes, no, no, no, I 492 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: I completely agree. Um. I've also recent I'll just say recently, 493 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: I've gotten quite a to a theologian named Dallas Willard, who, uh, 494 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: you guys may or may not be familiar with him, 495 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: but he's somebody who you know is a is a 496 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: theologian who has been very influential in uh in a 497 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:18,719 Speaker 1: certain line of a Protestant thinking, in particular now Presbyterian thinking. 498 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: Uh And and he has had a whole bunch of 499 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: really interesting books over the years. Some of them are 500 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: quite dense. He's quite a dense writer. But one that 501 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed recently is called Life Without Lack, which 502 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: talks about, uh, you know, essentially, how to lead life 503 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: fully and how to feel full when we can oftentimes 504 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 1: look around us and think, gosh, I'm missing that, or 505 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: I don't have this, I don't have that or the other. 506 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 1: Uh and and and and so that one in particular 507 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: has has stuck out recently. But and you know, he 508 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: got my attention with that one because I'm in that 509 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: world a lot, and I don't know that name, so 510 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: I'll check that out. Yeah, we appreciate the recommendation. Hey, 511 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: if I can just circle back to orwell real quickly. 512 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: Um And in comment that, I was probably twelve when 513 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: I read Animal Farms somehow or other, I think I 514 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: came across it. There was a neat illustration of a 515 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: pig on the front, and so I thought a story 516 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 1: about pigs, but talking pigs. Um. It was like a 517 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: religious awakening for me. I mean it just I still 518 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: can feel the electricity, um that ran through my veins 519 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: as I read this thing. And I wondered if you 520 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 1: read a Brave New World. Of course, Yeah, I had 521 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: a feeling you had I think about you know, it's 522 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: a it's a classic question who got it more right 523 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: or Well or Huxley. I think China is a pretty 524 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: good example of a regime taking just enough from more 525 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: Well and just enough from Huxley. You know, the point 526 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: of Brave New World is that people weren't really oppressed 527 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: so much as they were drugged and amused into apathy 528 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: and cooperation. Um that there's you know, it takes both 529 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: to oppress a society unless you're going to go full on, 530 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, oppressive regime. Yeah, that is a that is 531 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: an amazing observation. Actually, and let me tell you why 532 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,479 Speaker 1: China is a great, great example of what you're talking about. 533 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: The the thing that is most noticeable to me about 534 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: where China is now. And you know, we'll put coronavirus 535 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: aside for a minute, because I think coronavirus was was 536 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: a little bit of a blip in terms of where 537 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: China is going were broadly, but the story that they've 538 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: told people, and I think this is a story that 539 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: people genuinely believe that economic prosperity and the listing of 540 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: people out of poverty in China is enough to justify 541 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: the oppression the government has put in place. In other words, 542 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: the deal that the Chinese government has with people is 543 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: this deal. You can be a little bit more prosperous, 544 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: and you can have food on your table, and you 545 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: can have a society that looks modern and has all 546 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,959 Speaker 1: the comforts of modern society. But the only way you 547 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: can have that is if you're willing to deal with 548 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: what the government has put in place in terms of 549 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: rules and regulations and requirements. And in China, those rules 550 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: include things like constant monitoring. They include things like, um, 551 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: the government being able to see and know what you're 552 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: doing all the time. They include things like not being 553 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: able to access a lot of the internet right And 554 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: people have been willing to take that deal, and they 555 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: feel like, well, you know, my government is taken care 556 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: of me. I'm doing a little bit better now, and 557 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: so maybe they're right. The only way that I can 558 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: be this way is if they have complete control over 559 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: over every part of my life. And I think it's 560 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: a really good observation that it's it is a it 561 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: is a mix in some ways between the four World 562 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: and the Brave New World world, because it because it's 563 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: this deal that that and these government is put in place. 564 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: One question on the news of the day that I 565 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: hope doesn't age poorly. I don't think it will when 566 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: people hear this in the future. We're right in the 567 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: midst of the biggest stimulus bill in the history of 568 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: the world. I don't know what's gonna end up being 569 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: somewhere close to two trillion dollars. Should we be horrified 570 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: that people are stuffing in all kinds of of things 571 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: that have nothing to do with coronavirus and business, or 572 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: should we just accept it as just part of the 573 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,239 Speaker 1: way the system works. I don't think we should accept it. 574 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: I think we should be willing to call it out. 575 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: I think we should be willing to say that this 576 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: is not an opportunity to jam in there your pet project. 577 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: This is not an opportunity to say, hey, you know what, 578 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: maybe we should put restrictions on what kinds of people 579 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: can be named to the board of directors of companies. 580 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: I've seen that that's something you know that Elizabeth Lawn wants. 581 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: I mean, this is not an opportunity to get every 582 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: straight cat and dog in this is an opportunity to 583 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: make sure it goes back to the original conversation we're having, guys, 584 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: which is what's our goal. What are we trying to 585 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: do here? Who are we trying to help? Let's help 586 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: those people, and then let's get out. Let's stop talking 587 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: about the rest of this stuff, because this is what 588 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: always ends up happening. And then you've got people on 589 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: the outside who are self proclaimed fiscal conservatives saying, hey, 590 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: three trillion, four trillion, we need more stimulus. Now, it 591 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: just does not make any sense to me that you 592 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: would that you would have a UM. People never want 593 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: to waste the crisis. I guess as rama Manuel has said, 594 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: and that's precisely what you're seeing here. But it doesn't 595 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: make it right. Well, I thought there were crisis is 596 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,239 Speaker 1: big enough that you wouldn't have time to think about that. 597 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: But maybe I was wrong. Yeah, you underestimated people. Uh. Hey, 598 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: I believe it or not, these things are not scripted. 599 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna ask jack Um, do you have more 600 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: on that you want to talk about or can I 601 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: ask on here a little bit about his his gig 602 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: at Stanford. Um the uh, it's a truism at this 603 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: point that American universities lean way way left. And you 604 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: see a lot of attitudes among college kids that I 605 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: find at uh you given what you believe? Are you 606 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: just a pariah at Stanford? Do you have to run 607 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: from doorway to doorway and and fend off blows? Or 608 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: how how are the youngsters these days? Are they open 609 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: to uh hearing opposing viewpoints? What's what's a snapshot of 610 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: the college experience for you these days? Yeah? You know, 611 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: for me at least, it's pretty um, it's always a 612 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: pretty good set of experiences, because what I find is that, well, 613 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: let's start with the students. I mean, the students clearly 614 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: are very left and they have some very out there 615 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: points of view. But if they're going to come and 616 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: take a class of mind, they understand that they're probably 617 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: going to be introduced to some concepts that other members 618 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: of the faculty won't introduce them to, and some come 619 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: seeking that out. So I end up with with some 620 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: students in my classes who are deliberately looking for that 621 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,719 Speaker 1: alternative point of view. I have some who are looking 622 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: for a good argument, which I'm always happy to have. 623 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: I have some who just come because they're curious in 624 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: the subject matter, but aren't particularly politically inclined one way 625 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: or the other. And and so I end up with 626 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: a pretty good diversity of students that I end up 627 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: with pretty good conversation in my classes. In particular. More broadly, 628 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 1: I will say the challenge I have that I see 629 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: on campus is not so much with the students. It's 630 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: with the other faculty, and that there are a number 631 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: of folks around the university who are an important positions, 632 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,399 Speaker 1: who you know, who deal with students all the time, 633 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: who have a very strong point of view and don't 634 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: believe that any alternative point of view holds any any merit. Now, 635 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: I'm not speaking about everybody there. Lord, how can you 636 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: get to a to a position of education at that 637 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: level and have that attitude. Well, they're they're they're so 638 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: deeply steeped and they're so good at what they do 639 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: that they don't necessarily believe that there's any alternate possibility 640 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: an explanation right there. That they've been in what they're 641 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: doing for so long that they just subscribe to that 642 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: point of view, and they automatically. I mean, what bothers 643 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: me is not so much people have strongly held believes 644 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: I'm all for that. What bothers me is when they 645 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: when they say, look, you feel differently from me, and 646 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to ascribe bad intentions to you that essentially, 647 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: I'm going to say, the reason that you disagree with 648 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 1: me is because you don't believe in science, or you're 649 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: a bad person just in general or right correct, or 650 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: you're heartless, or yeah, you're a racist. Sure, I mean 651 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: what which which I always find humorous when when you know, 652 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: when when I hear that, but I you know, that's 653 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: that's where it's a little bit tougher for me. And 654 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: I feel like that is something I see I'm seeing 655 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: more and more of on campus, which is people who 656 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,720 Speaker 1: are so deeply set in their views that they're unwilling 657 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: to consider that there might be an alternative. Sorry, no, no, 658 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: I as to say, I've I've I've got a lot 659 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: of colleagues who are are quite left and as I said, 660 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 1: we're willing to entertain the alternative, and we have great conversations. 661 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: But it's the ones who are so set in their 662 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: views that those are the one that I find more difficult. 663 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: I read a contemporary wise person say the other day, 664 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: and I have a feeling this wisdom goes back to 665 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: the ancient Greeks or beyond that. When you lose your 666 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: capacity to say, but I might be wrong, you've lost 667 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: an incredibly important part of your humanity, and that's those 668 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: people scare me. Yeah. Well, I mean, this is the 669 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: problem with with with American colleges and universities more broadly, 670 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: is that you do have a lot of people. I 671 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 1: mean just look at Twitter, right that back and forth 672 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: you see over Twitter on on on things, and you've 673 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: got people who are absolutely a hundred percent convinced that 674 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: they are right and and and they will never be wrong. Now, 675 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: in some areas, if they're talking about something they've researched 676 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: for their whole life, I believe that they're probably right. 677 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: But when it comes to questions around uh, you know 678 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: what the best way is for society to move forward, 679 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: or questions about where we are politically, those get a 680 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: little grayer for me. And I'm more been happy to 681 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: admit that I may not know the right answer. If 682 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: I can a lot of situations, I probably don't know 683 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: the right answer, and I'm doing my best to guess. 684 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: But I always try to tell people that, and I 685 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: always try to say, look, I believe very well. I 686 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: could could be right, could be wrong, and you're right. 687 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: I think when we lose our capacity to do that, 688 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: it's a sad thing. It's a very sad day. You 689 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: know the problem with smug contemptuousness is that it's kind 690 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: of fun, all right, it's a good time, and if 691 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: you're surrounded by other people who agree with you, can 692 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: they can feel really good? Oh yeah, it can snowball 693 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: too until you can't stop yourself. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, 694 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: maybe someday we can talk about the future of college education, 695 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: because that is a really interesting topic to all of us, 696 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 1: particularly as I pay for my third kid to get 697 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: through that process. And this is not the classic sitcom 698 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: level humor about you know, writing checks. It's the idea 699 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: that the dissemination of knowledge costs, you know, thirty to 700 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: sixty dollars per year and you have to go to 701 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: a big place with brick buildings seem is fairly ridiculous 702 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 1: to me at this point in history. Not that there 703 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 1: is no role for you know, a socratic seminar type thing, 704 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: and intellectual leadership by a learned human and directing learning. 705 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: I think that's all incredibly important, But I just it's 706 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: become something ridiculous, partly because of the flood of government money. 707 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: But again, maybe that's a for another time. And we 708 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: didn't even touch on the presidential campaign, which seems to 709 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: be completely on hold, at least at the time we're 710 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: recording this in the middle of the comic virus thing 711 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: going on. But uh, Joe Biden, it's it's gotta be 712 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: good news for Joe Biden, right that he gets to 713 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 1: hunker down and not have to talk very much. I 714 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 1: think it's good news, but it's not going to be 715 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: good news, uh once we once a couple of weeks passes, 716 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: because people are going to forget about it, right, And 717 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,280 Speaker 1: I think staying out of the public light, being able 718 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,760 Speaker 1: to kind of prepare a message or you know, rest 719 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: or do whatever he wants to do. I don't know. 720 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 1: I think those are positives. But I think you're seeing 721 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: a little bit of consternation from his camp that he 722 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: can't get more involved in this coronavirus conversation. Right. He's 723 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: trying to get out there, and we've seen as a 724 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: little bit as we record this, where he's trying to 725 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: get out and and and appear almost like the shadow 726 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: president who's got his own ideas and got his own thoughts. 727 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: It just it's just not been effective. He just has 728 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: not been able to put himself into the conversation. And 729 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: I suspect that while it's nice to be able to 730 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: lay low for a little bit, once this continues to 731 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: go on, as we drag into April and May, he's 732 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: going to want to figure out ways to get into 733 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,280 Speaker 1: the limelight. And I think that's going to be something 734 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,320 Speaker 1: he's gonna want to do because it's easy to forget 735 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: we've got a presidential campaign what we do. Yeah, it's 736 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: funny how the universe it seems cycle after cycle says no, 737 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: the election is going to be about this, and it's 738 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: almost like you're on some sort of game show. What 739 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: was that cooking show where they told you the last 740 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: second the secret ingredient you had to Yeah, it's very 741 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: much like the Iron Chef. McCain and Obama were set 742 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: up to be an argument about the Iraq War, than 743 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: the crisis happens and it's got nothing to do with 744 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: it anymore. Yeah. Yeah, it seems to happen every time 745 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: a lot he it's always stimulating. We don't want to 746 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: steal too much of your time. But I hope we 747 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: can do it again. Absolutely thankful guys, our pleasure. A 748 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: little too smart for my taste, Yeah, oh yeah, I'll 749 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: ask him to dumb it down next time. Well, we 750 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: covered so much ground. I have a feeling he could 751 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: go deep quite a few of the I'm sure, Oh yeah, 752 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: especially when I asked him a question. But uh, stop it. Um, 753 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: I would love to. I could maintain, I think, a 754 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: lifelong interest in the question of how do you rearrange 755 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: incentives and disincentives to make government perform more efficiently? I 756 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 1: couldn't because I'm too pessimistic about it. I just I 757 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: just can't imagine. Well, I would die better, No, no 758 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: question about that. I just just from being in in 759 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 1: private bureaucracies, big companies and seeing the government. It just 760 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 1: I've never seen it go the other way. It just 761 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,280 Speaker 1: it grows and grows and gets more centralized and gets 762 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: thicker and slower, less responsive. Yeah. I'm thinking about the 763 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,840 Speaker 1: trends in media with a lot of consolidation and and 764 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: and thinning the workforce and the rest of it. But 765 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's that's not the model we're looking for. 766 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: That's that's that's starvation, not stuff about increasing efficiency, reforming 767 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 1: the rules of civil service. If you don't start there, 768 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 1: then that I'm walking out of the room, because if 769 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,760 Speaker 1: that's not on the table, it'll never happened until people 770 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,720 Speaker 1: can lose their jobs. Well, and serious reform of public 771 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 1: employee union rules too. Yeah, if we don't have those two, 772 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: we have nothing nothing. You're right, it's an excellent point, 773 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:52,879 Speaker 1: extra large. When you're ready to ride Metro, we want 774 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 1: you to know we're ready for you. Here are just 775 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: a few of the people at Metro to tell you 776 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,320 Speaker 1: how we're doing our part to keep riders safe. Cleaning 777 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: like noble before, but half built a great clean You've 778 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: found half sanitizer stations all over the Metro. No mask, 779 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 1: no Metro need one. We have a few extras at Metro. 780 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 1: We're doing our part to keep the d C area moving. 781 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: Find out more at WEMTA dot com slash doing our 782 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:17,399 Speaker 1: part