1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The couple were fulfilling a 2 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: sick fantasy. She was lovable little girl. Prosecutors say, Sullivan 3 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: beat and rape Grace. It's unspeakable, some sort of rape fantasy. 4 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: The crimes she is accused of are sick, kidnapped, raped, 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: and murdered her adopted daughter, Grace Packer, she matters to us, 6 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: she managed to the community. The hours and the days 7 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: leading up to her murder were probably the most horrible 8 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: and traumatic that any person should ever have had to experience. 9 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: Anonia three years. I'm just so so distraught. A fourteen 10 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: year old little girl, raped, murdered and dismembered. Bye bye, 11 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: mommy's boyfriend, Jacob Sullivan, I Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories. 12 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: We want justice. Joining me? Ellen Colorin from crime online 13 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: dot Com. Ellen, what happened to fourteen year old Grace Dante. 14 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: Grace Packer was fourteen years old when her own mother 15 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: and her mother's boyfriend, Jacob Sullivan, brought her to a 16 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: home that they had rented at Bucks County. She was 17 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: in her pajamas when they took her there. Jacob Sullivan 18 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: hit her in the face. Okay, wait Waite, white, White 19 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: right there, right there, right there. You know, I want 20 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: to go to Kathleen Murphy. Guys with me and All 21 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 1: Star panel. Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina trial lawyer Karen Smith, 22 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: forensics expert, doctor Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner, author of 23 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: Homicide Investigative Field Guide, Forensics psychiatrist, doctor Daniel Bober, Crime 24 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: Online dot Com investigative reporter Rob Willinski, author of Beautiful 25 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: Life CSI behind Casey Anthony Trial on Amazon. To Kathleen Murphy, 26 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: Kathleen Lucy insisted, we go to Goodwill this weekend, and 27 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: she got all these psychedelic colored pants. They just kind 28 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: of hang on her. They're like a jersey, and she's 29 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: sleeping in them. I washed him and drive him. She's 30 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: sleeping in them. And when she and John David get 31 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: et their baths and they come in and their little pj's, 32 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: I've never seen anything more precious in my life. And 33 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: they're so innocent, and they're so trusting and sweet. They 34 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: come in and their pj's and their little bedroom shoes, 35 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: and I'm just thinking of little Grace Packer. She's just 36 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: three years, two and a half years older than the twins, 37 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: and her little PJS. I can't. I just can't. I 38 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: can't imagine. I can't think about it. And livid that 39 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: this woman was allowed to continue fostering this child in 40 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: light of the previous allegations of her husband. And I'm 41 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: livid that she was able to manipulate the system, and 42 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: I'm livid at Social Service. There's just mostly I'm livid 43 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: at the criminals. I'm besides, I want I want him 44 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: to get the death penalty. But the mother, her own mom, 45 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: part of this, you know, ak Ellen colaurin Crimeline dot 46 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: com Investigate reporter, I've gotten ahead of myself. But first 47 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: of all, I want to know what happened to fourteen 48 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,839 Speaker 1: year old Grace Nancy. What happened was absolutely horrific. At 49 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: that home in July, Jacob Sullivan beat her and and 50 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: he raped her, and Sarah Packer, her own mother, stood 51 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: by and watched and encouraged it. They gave her some 52 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: over the coin, her sleeping pills. They tie her up, 53 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: they bound her with zip ties, and they brought her 54 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: up to an attic and they stucked her into a 55 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: sweltering hot cedar closet and then they left. And when 56 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: they came back hours later, several hours later, possibly up 57 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: to twelve, Jacob Sullivan told detectives he expected her to 58 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: be dead, but she wasn't. She was still alive. So again, 59 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: with Sarah Packer, the girl's own mother, standing by, Jacob 60 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: Sullivan strangled the girl to death, and then they left 61 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:36,799 Speaker 1: her there with the mom standing by, with the mom 62 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: right there, I don't get it to doctor Daniel Bober. 63 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: I need a shrink. Forensic psychiatrist, Doctor Daniel Bob are 64 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: joining me. So the mom stands by while her so 65 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: called boyfriend sex assaults, murders, then comes back the child 66 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: is still somehow alive, and then he finishes the murder 67 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: and dismembers her. I don't understand it, and apparently it 68 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: was part of some fantasy. What fantasy, doctor Bober. Let's 69 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: just start without what fantasy? You know what, Nancy, I've 70 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: been involved in child custody cases like this, and it's 71 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: it's incomprehensible. I mean, it goes against every maternal instinct. 72 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: You know, you would lay down your life for your child, 73 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: you would take a bullet for your child. And this 74 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: is someone who basically participated in her rape and murder 75 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: and did it so callously it just goes against you know, 76 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: every sort of biological theory of evolution that you're supposed 77 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: to protect your child. That's really haining. I don't understand 78 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: the moms standing by. To doctor Michelle Duprie, medical examiner, 79 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Doctor Dupree, people think 80 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: they've dismembered a body. It never turns out that way 81 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: when you dismember a body. It's not like on TV 82 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: or in the movies. I mean, there's really no way 83 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: you can get rid of all that evidence. You're right, Nancy, 84 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: That's why I call it cs I. You can't get 85 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: rid of all the evidence. And to this number, a 86 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: body is much much harder than you may think. You know. 87 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: What's so ironic to Kathleen Murphy, Grace's adoptive mom, Sarah Packer, 88 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: actually once worked Northampton County, and not only that, child 89 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: Services new abuse was happening in the home, and they 90 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: never took Grace out of the home. If you look 91 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: at Grace Packer, she looks like any other teen girl, 92 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: just happy, smiling. Nobody had any idea the way that 93 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: she was being abused in the home. It's just as 94 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, when she tried to escape. She 95 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: was strangled and dismembered and stored in cat litter. Help 96 00:06:55,200 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: me out with that. This mother was clearly manipulated, the coworkers, 97 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: manipulating the social workers, manipulating the system. Her husband was 98 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: arrested for abusing the older child. They knew that something 99 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: was going on in the house, but they're only human 100 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: and they're overworked. I just cannot comprehend it. They knew 101 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: about abuse in the home and they did nothing. I 102 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: don't care how many cases they had. This girl is 103 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: dead and they had the opportunity to fix it, and 104 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: they did nothing. This little girl's life ended in hell. Hell, 105 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: And it's amazing to me, Karen Smith, with me forensics expert. 106 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: You just go to a red light. You look around, 107 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: there is a freak around you and somebody evil. I 108 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,679 Speaker 1: don't know who they are, because these people seemingly carried 109 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: on normal lives and they had this city fantasy going on. 110 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: What did they possibly think? To Karen Smith? How how 111 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,679 Speaker 1: is cat litter going to? What um stop the body 112 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: from decomposing? Stop the smell of decomposure? What what? Karen? Well, 113 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: it won't stop that, It won't stop the decomposition. Process. 114 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: It acts as a desscint um. It absorbs some of 115 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: the decompositional fluids and it may stop some of that. 116 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: But what it won't do is is stop the odor. 117 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: It won't stop the process. So while they had this, 118 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: it just breaks my heart. They had this little girl's 119 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: body in an attic, in a cardboard box filled with 120 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: with cat litter for four months, four months before they 121 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,719 Speaker 1: decided to take her body out into a bathroom in 122 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: the upstairs of this home and dismember it with a 123 00:08:54,360 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 1: bow saw um and then they discarded her body into 124 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: the woods where it was subsequently found. So, you know, 125 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: I would defer to the medical examiner and what that 126 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: would look like. I have kind of an idea that 127 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: it would be a little bit mummified, But at this point, 128 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: the forensic evidence inside that house would absolutely be overwhelming. 129 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: Nancy overwhelming. Joining me, Robin Willinski, Crime Online dot Com 130 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: investigative reporter, author of Beautiful Life CSI, behind the Casey 131 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: Anthony Trial on Amazon. Robin Willinski, let me ask you this. 132 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: The murder of this little fourteen year old girl is 133 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: especially deprived. All murders are immortal sin. What can you 134 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: tell us about mom? Sarah Packer and her boyfriend Jacob Sullivan. Well, 135 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: they were saying that, you know, she was this out 136 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,359 Speaker 1: of control fourteen year old. You know that she had problems, 137 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: that she was a pain in the whatever. But you 138 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: know what fourteen year olds are that way. You and 139 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: I were once fourteen years old, And maybe she was, 140 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: and maybe she wasn't. Maybe she was just an adolescent 141 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: with the same problems that every other adolescent girl or 142 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: boy experiences. And they were saying that she was a 143 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: problem kid. But why in the world are you making 144 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: her at fourteen at part of your sex fantasy with 145 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: a gag in her mouth and all the rest of it? 146 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: Ellen Colaurin with me Crime Online investigative reporter Ellen, what 147 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: could be a possible motive? Believe it or not? Nancy 148 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: Bucks County District Attorney A. Matthew Weintraub said that the 149 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: motive for this was a rape and murder fantasy. Sarah 150 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: Packer was sexually aroused by the violence that was committed 151 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 1: to her daughter and by watching it and by refusing 152 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: to help her. Okay, you know what that is just sick. 153 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: The mother deserves the death penalty too. We're here because 154 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: we just made an arrest in the Grace Packer homicide. 155 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: Today we arrested and brought in for Raymond her mother, 156 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: Sarah Packer. As you know, about twelve hours ago, her 157 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: code defendant was arrayed, and that was Jacob Sullivan. They've 158 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 1: been charged with substantially the same charges with one exceptions. 159 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: We believe and we will prove at trial that Sarah 160 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: Packer was complicit in her daughter's murder, and that she 161 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: materially participated in the planning and in the aftermath of 162 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: the murder. You know, he needs the death penalty badly implemented. 163 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: Now I the blue. After a jury finally gives them 164 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: the death penalty, they put a moratorium on it in Pennsylvania. 165 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: So I guess the Pennsylvania you can have a sick rape, 166 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: torture fantasy on a little girl, had her body up 167 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: stewart and cat litter, and there's no chance you'll ever 168 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 1: get the death penalty in Pennsylvania. That's a thought to 169 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: just mull over. Take a listen to this. How could 170 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: any mother do this to a child, to their child. 171 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: I don't have an answer. A crime so twisted seasoned 172 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: prosecutors are left without words. Bucks County District Attorney Matt 173 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: Weintrobe announcing the arrest of forty one year old Sarah 174 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: Packer in the rape, murder, and dismemberment of Packer's fourteen 175 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: year old adoptive daughter, Grace. Packer reported the team missing 176 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: in July from their Abington Township home. Hunters found the 177 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: child's body in October in rural Luzerne County. She was beaten, 178 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: she was raped, she was sexually assaulted, and then she 179 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: was dumped like garbage up in the woods. Police a 180 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: Packer and her boyfriend, Jacob Sullivan planned Grace's murder in 181 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: order to act out a sick rape and murder fantasy, 182 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: then claimed that she was missing to throw police off 183 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: the trail. It worked. Prosecutors say the couple stored Grace's 184 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: body an upstairs addict before dumping it. Despite a search, 185 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: police never found the body. Authority already say detectives at 186 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: that time still believe the child was missing and poor 187 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: Grace was stored in a cedar closet while covered with 188 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,719 Speaker 1: mothballs and kitty litteral to them, she was unfortunately a 189 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,359 Speaker 1: disposable child. Really shake Swan's belief in the goodness of humanity. 190 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: And it really does. That's our friends at wt x 191 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: F Fox twenty nine. Sabrina Korea Coost. I mean I 192 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: am sick that not only did moms live in murder 193 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: this child, the mother Sarah Packer, stood by and let 194 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: her daughter be sex assaulted, gagged, drugged and murdered as 195 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: part of her own sick fantasy. To Ellen Kalora joining 196 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: me from crime online dot com, do you believe that 197 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: one person was the mastermind and the other person went along, 198 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: which we so often see or no, you know, hold 199 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: on now, I'm going to circle back to you to 200 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: doctor Bob or forensic psychiatrists. What is that dynamic when 201 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: one person is the mastermind and someone else goes along? 202 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: Have you seen that in any other cases? You know what, Nancy? 203 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: Do you I've brought up this case before, but do 204 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: you remember Carlo Hamolka and Paul Bernardo in Canada when 205 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: Paul Bernardo and Carlo Carlo Hamolta they used the sister 206 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: as a spec slave in a rape fantasy and she 207 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: ended up dying and her own sister participated in her 208 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: rape and murder. And then she went on, you know, 209 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: to participate in other crimes that are very similar. So 210 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: in that particular case, I just think that Carla had 211 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: such poor self concept that she basically went along with 212 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: anything the guy wanted. But in this case, it's very 213 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: different because you're dealing with a mother again, who you 214 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: would think would have her first instinct would be to 215 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: protect her child, and that's not what happened here. And 216 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: to Kathleen Murphy in North Carolina, you see so much 217 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: of this where the mom or the woman just stands 218 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: by and does nothing when the child is getting abused. 219 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: She should obviously be in court, she should obviously go 220 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: to jail. She should obviously be punished, and I believe 221 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: she should be punished equally. This girl would be protected 222 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: if she had taken steps to remove her from this 223 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: god awful But I don't get it, doctor Bober. Why 224 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: does one person go along with the heinous axe of 225 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: the mastermind? Why? You know what, Nancy, Obviously the mother 226 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: herself has some underlying mental health issues. She's a weak person, 227 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: and she was, you know, more than complicit, She was 228 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: an active participant in it. So it's hard to say, 229 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: but obviously we need to know more about her background. 230 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: Um you know too, Ellen Colorin, let me ask you 231 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: another question, because they answered that Packer and Sullivan are 232 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: already decidedly guilty within this system. But aside from that, 233 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: how did the system fail this little girl? And before 234 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: you even start, Ellen, I want to tell you something. 235 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: You know, the mother, Grace Packer, worked within the child system, 236 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: and I think that's why Child Services did not take 237 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: the children away from her, even when they neither was abuse. 238 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: They were protecting one of their own, Nancy. I think 239 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: that's very possible because I can't explain in any other way. 240 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: Sarah and her and her ex husband David Packer had 241 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: fostered dozens of children and fostered Grace before they adopted her. 242 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: David Packer Packer would found guilty of sexual abuse. Grace 243 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: Packer was believed to be one of his victims. This 244 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: is going back to two thousand and eleven, five years 245 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: before she was killed. David's arrest in conviction was enough 246 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: for Sarah Packer to finally lose her job in child Services, 247 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: but it wasn't enough to have the children removed from 248 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: the home. I don't understand that. Wait, are you telling 249 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: me that Grace was a victim of Jacob Sullivan. Back 250 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: into David Packer O that okay. David Packer, Sarah Packer's 251 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: first husband. Yes, it was a known thing that children 252 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: were being abused in her home. It was enough to 253 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: get her fired, but the children remained in the How 254 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: long was her history of abusing children? I mean she 255 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: had been bringing in foster children for a really long time, 256 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: for over a decade, maybe maybe a decade and a half. 257 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: And there was an accusation, no conviction, but there was 258 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: an accusation of abuse against David Packer going back to 259 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: two thousand and six. It was two eleven that he 260 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: was convicted and sent back to jail, sent to jail, 261 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: but the accusations were years earlier. You know. That's something 262 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: I don't understand. Robin Willinski's jointing me Crime Online investigative reporter. 263 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: It seems like the mother or Sarah Packer, she gets 264 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: rid of David Packer or the first husband who was 265 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: convicted of abusing little Grace, and then she just basically 266 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: replaces him. He's cog in the wheel with Jacob Sullivan 267 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 1: and the abuse goes on. Yeah, she goes for the 268 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: same thing twice. It's a pattern for her, and she's 269 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: involved with these psycho men that are abusing children, and 270 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: you know, she reminds me of someone who was in 271 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: a cult who is so mesmerized by the leader that 272 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: she's willing to drink the kool aid of these men 273 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: and whatever they tell her to do, and whatever fantasy 274 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: Nancy they present, she goes along with it. Crime Stories 275 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace of Court talks to me in the 276 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: state that on July eighth, the couple took Grace from 277 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: Sarah Packer's home in Abington to a home in Quaker Town. 278 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: According to detectives. Sullivan says the couple attack Race, sexually 279 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: assaulted her, and drugged her before he strangled her. They 280 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: kept her body and night the Grace had gone missing 281 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: to Abington police. Well Sullivan has quoted in the report 282 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: saying during the investigation, the couple became scared of being caught, 283 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: so they dismembered Grace's body with a bosaw and dumped 284 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: her remains in Bear Creek Township. The remains were found 285 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: in October. Dental records proved the remains were Graces. No 286 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: I repeatedly asked Sarah, coming in and out of court 287 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: if she in fact did this. She kept her head 288 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: down and said nothing you are hearing ABC six reporter 289 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: Bob Brooks and one of the most heinous cases I 290 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: have ever heard of. I want to go to Ellen Colorin. Ellen, 291 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: what were these two doing during the four months that 292 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: she knew her daughter having been sex assaulted brutally with 293 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: a gag in her mouth, as mommy stood by and 294 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: watched to happen murdered. When the first murder attempt didn't work, 295 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: they left her lying there and a sweltering attic dying 296 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 1: come back in he Jacob Sullivan finishes the murder by 297 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: strangling her dad as a girl just you know at 298 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: that point couldn't fight back anymore, and Sarah Packers stood 299 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: by and let it happen. Then they dismember her with 300 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: a bosaw. They put her body in cat litter and 301 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: finally throw the body away. But what were they doing 302 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: in the four months, all the months that they knew 303 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: little Grace was sitting in a cardboard box. Nancy, It's 304 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: almost hard to believe that anyone could do this, But 305 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: those people kept that body, kept that little girl body 306 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: in a closet and an attic for months before police 307 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: came knocking. And they went up there every single day 308 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: they lived there with another woman who they were in 309 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: a polyamorous relationship, and they stop, stop stop stop, Okay, 310 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: poly amorous relationship. Kathleen Murphy, you're the divorce lawyer. Could 311 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: you just explain what that means? A polyamorous relationship in 312 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: North Carolina is not legally recognized. But it's more than 313 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: two people in a faux marriage. So it's two people 314 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: plus one plus two plus three. You know what, it 315 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: sounds like a bunch of cats and dogs. Really, I mean, 316 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: you can call it Ellen KLORNA don't know what koolaid 317 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: you've been drinking. A polyamorous relationship that means everybody sleeping together. 318 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: And I'm not judging. I couldn't care less what other 319 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: people do in their own private time. But when you 320 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: bring a child into the scenario, that changes things. I 321 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: don't care who sleeps with who, cats and dogs sleeping together, 322 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: to take a phrase from Ghostbusters. But doctor Michelle dupre 323 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: joining me, let's just bring it home. What happened to 324 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: this little girl's body, doctor dupree, Nancy, what happened to 325 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: this little girl's body? And this amount of time is 326 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: most likely it would start to mummify because of the 327 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: way that it was. It was hell, which would make 328 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: it very difficult for some things to occur, for example, 329 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: some types of identification. You know, maybe obliteratus, but for 330 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: the most part, it would simply start to mummify or dehydrate. Well, then, 331 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: how do you perform an autopsy on a mummified body. 332 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: It can be done, it's just that it's much tougher, 333 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: and we can still not in this case. But in 334 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: cases if we needed to get fingerprints, we simply rehydrate 335 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: the fingertips to actually be able to get fingerprints. Okay, 336 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: stop right there, there's something new to me. What do 337 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: you mean you rehydrate it rehydrate a body? Well, we 338 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: rehydrate the fingertips. If we needed to get fingerprints, we 339 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't rehydrate. What does that mean rehydrate? Break it down. 340 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: It means that we put water back into the tissue. 341 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: So for fingerprints, how do you do that? How do 342 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: you do that? For fingerprints? We would take a syringe 343 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: filled with water and simply inject it underneath the skin 344 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: so that it plumps back up the tissue so that 345 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: we're able to then roll the fingerprints and get it 346 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: a sample. But we wouldn't do people ask me all 347 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: the time, how do you sleep at night? Don't I 348 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: don't really know how I sleep at night. But now 349 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: that I've heard that, I'd like for you to see 350 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 1: me a detailed email about how you sleep at night. 351 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: Rehydrating a body by injecting water into the fingerprints the 352 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: fingertips so you can get a print. Okay, I almost 353 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: wish I hadn't even asked that. No offense to you, 354 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: of course, Doctor Dupree, listen to this. This has been 355 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: a arduous two and a half year journey that we've 356 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: had to take, always keeping Grace in the forefront of 357 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: our minds. And I remember way back when, on that cold, 358 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 1: cold night when we locked up Sullivan and his codefendant, 359 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: who has yet to be judged what we hope will 360 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: be tomorrow Sarah Packer, that I asked a question rhetorically, 361 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: who would speak for Grace? And I pledged that we would, 362 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: and not only have we, what the jury of Bucks 363 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: County citizens has judged and has spoke for Grace loud 364 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: and clear and gotten her justice on this terminal case. 365 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: At candidly, I'm sure I'm anticipating what you're all gonna 366 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: ask me, what do I think of the sentence you 367 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 1: got what you deserve, plain and simple. That's this appropriate 368 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: sentence for this matter. Guys, I want to pause. When 369 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: do you want to spot the burglar when he's outside 370 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 1: casing your home or when he's already inside. John had 371 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: a Blink camera, it'll learned him. Or burglars trying to 372 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: break in while he and his family are actually home. 373 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: Or Shannon her Blink camera caught a thief stealing packages. 374 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: Both times Blink video clips sent to cops to get 375 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: the bad guys. Blink Motion Activate activated indoor outdoor cameras 376 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: wire free. They set up in minutes, which I love, 377 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: run on two Lithian batteries that last up to two 378 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: years when you're away. Blinks Live Feed option lets you 379 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: monitor your home, check on your children or your pets 380 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: from anywhere using your Blink smartphone app. It's awesome, no contract, 381 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: no subscription, totally affordable. In fact, Blink systems started just 382 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: seventy nine ninety nine. All in seventy nine nine. Thanks 383 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: to Blink, home security just got easier. Go to blink 384 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: protect dot com slash Nancy blink Protect dot com slash 385 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: Nancy blink Protect dot com slash. Nancy Blink is an 386 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: Amazon company and it works with Alexa or. Grace was 387 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: stored in a cedar closet while covered with a mothball 388 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: of mothballs and kitty letter, I believe, so that she 389 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: would not rot. We have information that Sarah Packer was 390 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 1: the one that reported Grace Packer missing so that she 391 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: could throw the police and investigators off of the trail 392 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: to try to dispel any kind of evidence of guilt 393 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: on her part or that of her lover. Think that 394 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: there was just a fixation in the minds of the 395 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,479 Speaker 1: code defendants that they wanted to see a certain result 396 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: come about to satisfy some six perverted fantasy of theirs, 397 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: and they needed a reality. They made it happen. And 398 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with who Grace Packer was 399 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: to them. She was, unfortunately a disposable child, and that's 400 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: nowhere near acceptable to Ellen Colora. What more can you 401 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: tell me about what they were doing all this time? 402 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: They were storing their daughter's body, Grace Packer, a little girl. 403 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: Sarah Packer knew Grace was being stored upstairs, dismembered in 404 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: cat litter. They were up and down every single day 405 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: next to Grace's dead body, and they installed a sex 406 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: swing right outside the door of the closet where Grace 407 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: was buried in cat litter. See, Ellen, you can't just 408 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: drop something like that on my head and not explain it. 409 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: What do you mean a sex swing? Well, I don't 410 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: know exactly how these things work, but it with. The 411 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: prosecutors described it in court as as a swing that 412 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: they would use as part of their whatever it was 413 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 1: that they were getting up to sexually, and they would 414 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: use it, and it was just outside of the closet 415 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: where Grace was for a month. Okay, Ellen, Ellen, I'd 416 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: like to apologize right here now because I knew you 417 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: weren't going to give me a straight answer on what 418 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: is a sex swing? But I bet I know somebody 419 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: that will Robin Willleinski, what is a sex swing? Wow? 420 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: Coming to me for the answer on that one, Nancy. Well, 421 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: it's a device that people use when they engage. You 422 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: know what. I'll spare you. I'll spare you because I've 423 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: said everything there is to say. I think I hope 424 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: I have any way to a jury. A sex swing, 425 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: also known as a swing, it's a harness to allow 426 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: sex between one partner suspended by the swing and another 427 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: partner who moves freely. So I'm gonna let you use 428 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: your imagination on that. So my point is, and I 429 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: guess you know, I don't know where to go with this, 430 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: but I am thinking about these two, and yes, that's 431 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: that's kind of funny imagining these two putting in a 432 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: sex wing. But hold on a moment, I'll think about 433 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: Grace Packer and the complete and total malignant heart that 434 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: not only Jacob Sullivan forty six and a polyamorous lover 435 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: Sarah Packer forty four, had malignant heart that they could 436 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: do this to a little girl, dismember her, store her 437 00:29:53,880 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: body parts in catletter and a cardboard box, and and 438 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: they turned the area around her dead body into a 439 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: sex dungeon. Sarah Packer had taken in thirty foster children. 440 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: How come nobody ever suspected me to think was happening? 441 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: And then you get the first sex abuse case? Why 442 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: ellen were the children allowed to stay in the home. 443 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: It does appear that people didn't know there was something wrong, 444 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: So I can't explain why Grace was allowed to say 445 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: with Sarah Packer, Grace had a guidance counselor who said 446 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: that she had excellent grace, that she was a very 447 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: good student, but she knew that she was having trouble 448 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: at home because Sarah Packer was constantly threatening to send 449 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: her to a residential home. And then this girl that 450 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: Sarah and Jacob described as a problem child instead wrote 451 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: them a sweet and kind letter saying, I understand if 452 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: you don't want me to live here, I still love 453 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: you guys. So people did know that there was something very, 454 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: very wrong, and there were three more than three months 455 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: before anyone checked up on the home after they reported 456 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: this girl missing, this girl who we know was abused 457 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: in the past. Ali Colorna, what more can you tell me? 458 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: I do think that it's just tragedy on top of 459 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: tragedy that this body, this little girl's body, was sitting 460 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: in the home for almost four months while they were 461 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: carrying on their depraved lives, and it was only asked 462 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: only in October that someone came knocking on the door 463 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: to check on a missing person's report that was made 464 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: in July. That's the only reason that they even decided 465 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: to get rid of the body. They thought, and they 466 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: believed for correctly for a long time, that they were 467 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: going to get away with this because they saw Grace 468 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: Packer as a disposable person, and they thought everyone else 469 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: would too. Robin will Lynsky's somewhere in the mix. There's 470 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: got to be a biomm the biological mother of Grace Packer. 471 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: Didn't she care? Wasn't she watching out what was happening 472 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: with Grace and this devil Jacob Sullivan and that horrible mother, 473 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: Sarah Packer. Where's she in the mix? Where's the bio 474 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,239 Speaker 1: dad in the mix? So, Nancy, we don't really know 475 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: anything about Grace's biological father, but we do know she 476 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: was with her biological mother for the first three years 477 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: of her life before her mom had to put her 478 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: into foster care. The circumstances surrounding that we really don't know. 479 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: But her biological mother, her name is Rose Huntsecker. Again, 480 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: Rose Huntsecker, the biological mother. She did show up at 481 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: the memorial service. She was really broken up, had to 482 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: be escorted by family and friends, was visibly shaken in tears, 483 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: grieving for her daughter. Now ABC six reporter Chad Pradelli 484 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: catching up with Rose at the service. Listen to this. 485 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: Dozens of strangers filled the New Life Presbyterian Church this 486 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: afternoon to say goodbye to Grace Packer. Packer's biological mother 487 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: was among those on hand. She was lovable little girl, 488 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: Lilonia three year. The memorial service was the work of 489 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: a handful of Abington women who felt compelled after learning 490 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: of the horrific death of Grace. Prosecutors say Sullivan beat 491 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: and rape Grace as Sarah Packer watched as part of 492 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: some sort of rape fantasy. She was allegedly then poisoned 493 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: and eventually strangled. It shows the community's grief. It's very crowded. 494 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: There's a lot of sad faces. She matters to us, 495 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: she managed to the community. It's right to give her 496 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: a dignified, honorable send off. The state took Packer from 497 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: her biological parents when she was just three. Sarah and 498 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: David Packer adopted her, but David Packer would later be 499 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: charged with sexual abuse of children. Sources say Grace was 500 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: one of his victims. He served five years behind bars. Sadly, 501 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 1: relatives who last saw Grace when she was just three 502 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: remember a happy little girl. The life she endured is agonizing. 503 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: I don't see how anyone could hurt her. She was 504 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: so cheerful. She lit up everybody's day. She was just 505 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: a happy person to be around. Now, Nancy, it only 506 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: took the jury ten minutes to sentence Jacob Sullivan. Let's 507 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: listen to WFMZ sixty nine news reporter Jamie Stover. After 508 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: more than ten hours of deliberation over the course of 509 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: three days, it took the jury just ten minutes this 510 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: morning to decide it would be death for Jacob Sullivan. 511 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: The one juror actually was choked up when they had 512 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: to affirm that this was an unanimous decision and the 513 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: decision that all of them wanted. The judge asked them 514 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: if they wanted to be a part of the actual 515 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: sentencing being imposed. All of them showed up. In fact, 516 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: they had to get a bigger court for all the 517 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: people to be there to watch as Jacob Sullivan was 518 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 1: given the death penalty. The judge walked in with a 519 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: smile actually before she imposed that sentence, and she said 520 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: that she had no problem giving this man the death penalty, 521 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 1: explaining all the horrific things that he admitted to doing 522 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: to fourteen year old Grace Packer. She ripped into him. 523 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: She told him that he had no soul she said 524 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: that in all her years, she has never said that 525 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: to a human being and said that she may not 526 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 1: ever say that again except for one other person, Sarah Packer. 527 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: And she told Jacob Sullivan that this was his first 528 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: judgment day. There would be a second judgment day, and 529 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: she said that he would not be in the same 530 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: place as fourteen year old Grace Packer. She said that 531 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 1: Grace Packer had a smile that would charm anyone but him. 532 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: She had lots of words for him, and she went 533 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: over the magnitude of this case. She went over all 534 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: of the disturbing details and admitted that she as well 535 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,879 Speaker 1: had trouble sleeping at night going through and listening to 536 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: all the horrific details of the rape, murder, and dismemberment 537 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: a fourteen year old Grace Packer. Sullivan was given the 538 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 1: death penalty for the homicide of Grace Packer. The judge 539 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: it was up to her to decide what the punishment 540 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: would be for all of those other charges, including kidnapping, 541 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: the rape, and the list goes on, and she gave 542 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: the max for every one of those charges and said 543 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: that they will run consecutively. Now, this makes Jacob Sullivan 544 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 1: the one hundred and forty third person to be on 545 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: death row currently in Pennsylvania. Because it is a death sentence, 546 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: it will automatically be appealed today. We also spoke with 547 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: the district attorney after the sentence came down. He said 548 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: that Sullivan got what he deserved. He said, you couldn't 549 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: write a script for a more horrific horror story. You 550 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: know what. The death penalty is too good for them, 551 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:54,240 Speaker 1: you know what. Grace Packer, my sweet girl, Rest in pace. 552 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, good bye friend,