WEBVTT - Survivors’ Discussion Continued | BONUS | Saskia’s Story 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:14.520 I'm Andrea Gunning and this is a bonus episode of Betrayal. 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:19.320 For this bonus episode, we'd like to share more excerpts 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:24.520 from the survivors group discussion. Because of these women, Ember, Natalie, Stephanie, 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.319 and Saskia had so much more to say than we 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.880 could fit in one episode. This discussion was moderated by 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:32.640 a professional. 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.400 Having conversations with survivors is really near and dear to 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:39.560 not just my heart, but to Rain's heart. 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:42.880 Megan Cutter is the chief of Victim Services at RAIN, 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.199 the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. RAIN has been 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:48.960 working with us throughout season five. 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.760 Healing is not a linear journey. It's not a straight line. 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.640 So I want to talk about that concept with all 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.200 of you and would love to get a sense of, 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:01.720 like how do you to find healing for you? And 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:04.760 I think this can be a conversation of like how 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:08.760 this feels, how's this show up? So let's talk about healing. 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.040 I think that's the hard part. 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:13.959 There's no like arrival. 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.200 That's Ember. It's been two decades since she found out 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.199 her then fiance was drugging and raping her. 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:25.199 If you had asked me twenty years ago, I would 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.360 have been like, yeah, by twenty years in, I would 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.399 be all better. I'm not even think about this anymore. 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:32.560 I wish it was something where we could just flip 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:36.360 the switch and never think about it again. My capacity 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:41.679 has changed, though, my ability to not judge myself. That 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:43.720 was a huge thing that I had to get over. 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.400 Was like, why am I not better? So I went 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:48.960 internal with a lot of it for a very long time. 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:52.600 I still think of it almost every day, but it 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:55.160 doesn't take my feet out from underneath me when I 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:55.840 think about it. 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:59.840 Then another survivor, Natalie, jumped in. 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:05.000 Like you Embert, I'm going on twelve years. 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:08.160 That's how long it's been since Natalie found images on 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.320 her son's iPad of her husband assaulting her. 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.919 I remember there being a time years ago where I'm like, no, 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:17.400 I'm fine, Like I could totally handle this. I can 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:22.200 deal with it. I'll just keep this inside and shove 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:26.640 it in a little box and it's fine. And no 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.000 it's not, because days would pop up and I'm like, ugh, 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:31.280 I'm really not fine. 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:37.600 I think you know, we all share this common feeling 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:42.000 that I don't know how to fix my life after 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:45.520 it's completely blown up like this. 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.080 That's Stephanie. She shared her story in season one of 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:54.440 Betrayal Weekly. After twenty three years of marriage, she found 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.200 intimate photos of herself on her husband's laptop. 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:04.240 But it was very empowering for me to share my 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:11.200 story through the Betrayal podcast, And the best part of 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:16.000 what came out of that is that the podcast producers 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:22.440 connected me with Saskia, who is my absolute soul sister. 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.160 Back when we first met Saskia, we immediately saw the 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:30.200 parallels between her and Stephanie's stories, so we connected them 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:34.440 via email. Email threads eventually turned into long phone calls, 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:38.240 which gave way to a deep friendship. Stephanie even flew 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:41.720 out to visit Saskia and Marilyn last summer. They watched 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.000 TV together, went on walks, and when one of them 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:48.600 felt overcome with grief or anxiety, they didn't have to 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.600 explain because they both understood, here's Saskia. 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:55.880 You know. To see how strong Stephanie was through this 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.400 gave me more of the you know what I'm going 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:02.240 to see that I can be a survivor, that I 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.640 am a survivor, and that I can help other people 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.160 with this. We can make sure that nobody else feels 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:11.600 as alone as we did. I feel like I'm in 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:12.160 really good. 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:17.880 Company, and now to have Natalie and Ember also to 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.520 join this terrible sisterhood that no one wants to be 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:22.200 a part. 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:26.280 Of is just really really powerful. 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:31.000 Like the other survivors, Saski's effort to rebuild her life 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:31.719 is ongoing. 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.680 One thing that was so hard for me is that 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.880 this was seven years of my life where I thought 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:44.080 that I had a wonderful husband and a wonderful family, 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:49.160 and I didn't know what to do with those seven 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:53.240 years of memories. We had to not only deal with 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.480 being raped, but also having our whole lives as we 0:04:56.560 --> 0:05:00.880 knew them fall apart. I wouldn't wish that anybody, but 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:03.480 I think it allows us to kind of build back 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.760 up and take some of our control back. But I 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:11.800 think a necessary part is to gain more confidence, be 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:16.880 more aware of our needs and our wants. Right. I know, 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.320 I've learned that you do have to be a little 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.440 bit selfish in life just to survive. I always thought 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.400 that was a bad word, being selfish, But I think 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:30.880 being selfless, you know, really enabled me to be taken 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:31.479 advantage of. 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:38.520 I think it's a matter of not selfishness, but self preservation. 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:45.080 I have learned and I see that in you also, Saskia. 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:53.159 We have finally figured out that we need to pryoritize ourselves, 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:59.680 our feelings and taking care of ourselves and not just 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:00.720 everybody else. 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:19.880 Right around the same time, Saska reached out to us 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:25.680 Gizelle pellicoas story was gaining international attention. Gazelle is the 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.880 woman in France whose husband drugged and raped her over 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.640 the course of a decade and invited dozens of other 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.760 men to do the same. Megan Cutter, the facilitator for Rain, 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.119 brought up Gizelle's case with the group. 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.680 When you see stories in the news in the media. 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:43.920 Over the last year or so, we've seen a lot 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:48.560 of conversation about Gizelle Pellico and her story. What's the 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:52.640 impact of seeing a story like Gizelle's in the media 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.680 or hearing on the podcast a story similar to your own. 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.719 I felt like the Gizelle Pello Coast story has really 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:05.120 important in bringing awareness to the whole world that there 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:10.480 is such a thing as marital rape, marital sexual abuse. 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:12.160 That's Stephanie again. 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:17.680 Her country gave her the privilege of having her anonymity, 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:24.320 but she still went forward to bring this abuse onto 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:30.240 a national international spotlight, which was just amazing. 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:35.960 Here's ember I go on TikTok social media, Instagram, and 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.240 I can come across just in my schooling, so many 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:42.320 accounts of people talking about sexual abuse, and it's like, Okay, 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:45.200 people are talking about this in the public square where 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.440 that was not the case twenty years ago. But is 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:52.120 it where it needs to be. No, let's not just 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.160 put ourselves in the back as a culture and say, 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.600 look at us, We've become so much better at this. 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.280 It's like better doesn't necessarily mean good, you know, on 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:01.960 what more do we need to do? 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:06.560 Then Natalie brought up another high profile sexual abuse case, 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.320 one that's all polarizing public reaction. 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.680 When you said in the media, I remember Bill Cosby, 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.040 and I was listening to that and just listening to 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:24.720 commentary from people just being so angry and wanting to 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:29.520 stand up for those victims and trying to educate people 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:31.400 on how wrong it is. 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.880 Bill Cosby was America's dad, but in twenty fourteen and 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:41.680 twenty fifteen, more than sixty women came forward accusing him 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.520 of drugging and raping them. The victims were torn apart 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.920 in the press and online, many were accused of making 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.960 these allegations up for fame or financial gain. 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:58.520 I didn't realize at that time, but I feel exactly 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:02.719 what those other victims or feeling and being labeled as 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:09.239 that is just something shameful to Carrie. People give their opinions, 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:12.880 and sometimes it would just be really hard, because you know, 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:15.719 you just have to sit there and kind of take it. 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.240 We talk a lot at RAIN about the myth of 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:20.440 the perfect victim. 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:23.480 We think a lot about this myth on betrayal too, 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:27.400 how it contributes to some survivors being perceived as more 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:31.959 sympathetic believable, while others are written off. 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:35.840 The perfect victim. They weren't drinking, they weren't using drugs, 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.000 They remembered every single moment of their abuse, and they 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.120 remembered it in order, and they went right to the 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.040 police and they said, I need help right away. And 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:48.040 this idea of what someone quote unquote should do when 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.600 they experience sexual violence, which is not at all aligned 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:54.000 with how trauma works in the brain, how abusers function 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:58.480 like it's not real. And when someone doesn't match that idea, 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.319 there can be judgment, there can be shame. There can 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.800 be a lot of putting something on the survivor. Have 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:07.640 there been moments when you all have questioned your own 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.560 experience because of the expectations put on you by that 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:15.160 perfect victim dialogue. 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:16.720 When you look at like the perfect victim. I was 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:20.040 not a partier. I wasn't out drinking regularly. I didn't 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.160 have a fake ID, I never did drugs. Even with that, 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:27.360 it was deemed a non credible witness by the first 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.880 two police officers that I spoke to, and they're like, yeah, 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.960 your testimony won't stand. You know, DA won't pick this 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.760 up if I don't remember things in a linear way. 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.960 It's so frustrating. I wasn't somebody of ill repute. It 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:43.800 didn't make any difference in my case. 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.880 Then Saskia spoke. She knew firsthand what it meant to 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.160 be held to that perfect victim standard. She lived through 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:52.720 it in her divorce case with Mike. 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:59.959 I feel like he was given every grace, every oppera 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:08.880 tunity to just shit on me, my mental health, my 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:15.520 substance use and abuse. We've been so traumatized already to 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:20.440 have to then put your life on display and talk 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:26.280 about your vulnerabilities and defend them. I couldn't have expected 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:27.120 the nightmare. 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:31.480 Saskia did conform to the perfect victim narrative in at 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:35.960 least one way. She rushed to report Mike, her abuser, 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:38.640 the moment she realized what was happening. 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:44.960 But I think back, and if I had my wits 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:49.560 about me, maybe I would have chose more self preservation. Right. 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.960 I had two stepdaughters, and as soon as I discover 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.360 what happened, they were pulled from my lives and the 0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:00.920 lives of my kids. My kids had to see me 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:05.320 falling to my knees. So I have guilt for some 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.200 of the things that I did too. You know, I 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:13.040 don't think that I'm better than anybody because I chose 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:17.040 this path. We all have to give ourselves grace for 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.199 our choices and what we had to do to survive. 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:26.240 I am sitting with what each of you have shared 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.480 and talked about, and I think it's reminding me survivorship 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.760 is not a monolith, right, And I imagine for people 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.560 listening to this too, to hear that there are different 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:41.000 ways to navigate this will hopefully make them feel like 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:45.280 whatever way they're trying to stay safe is okay and 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:46.600 is right and is valid. 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:52.280 My last question is, if there's a survivor listening to this, 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.640 what was it that you wish for them? 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.520 My wish and desire for you is that you would 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:04.240 know that you are loved, that you deserve safety and 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:08.920 kindness and compassion exactly as you are right now. 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:14.839 I want any victim survivor of this to know that 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:20.320 she did nothing to cause this, and the shame is 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:24.680 one hundred percent on the perpetrator, and. 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.240 You're not alone. 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:32.640 Carrying that shame is really what kept me from a lot, 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:38.960 and it really isn't yours secure, It's not ours to carry. 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:43.520 I think I would share that it's not what happens 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:46.760 to you, it's what you do with that and how 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.000 you respond to it. That shows the type of person 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:53.559 that you are. And it's possible to have something so 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.880 tragic happened to you and still have goodness and hope 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.000 and not let anyone take that away from you. 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:07.840 For resources on sexual violence, visit RAIN dot org slash 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:12.640 betrayal that's our ai n N dot org slash betrayal. 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.600 You can also get free confidential twenty four seven support 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:21.200 through Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text hope to 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.840 six four six seven three or call one eight hundred. 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:25.800 Sixty five six. 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.920 Hope you are not alone. If you would like to 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.280 reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:37.040 us your story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:41.600 That is Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com, or follow 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:46.320 us on Instagram at betrayal Pod. To access additional content 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.840 and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our substack 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:54.320 at Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful for your support. 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.360 One way to show support is by subscribing to our 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:01.120 show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.400 Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:05.880 you to all of our listeners. 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:07.640 Betrayal is the. 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.360 Production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:15.880 in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.720 by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.520 me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Leah Jablo, with 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:28.200 additional production by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:32.440 Our story editor is Monique le Board, also produced. 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:32.920 By Ben Fetterman. 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:38.840 Our associate producer is Olivia Hewitt, Production management by Kristin Melcurrie, 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.880 additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:47.160 Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:52.440 additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.920 her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.800 and Carrie Lieberman. The roundtable discussion was led with the 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:04.040 Hell of Rain, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.160 Thank you to our facilitator Megan Cutter and to Angelina 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:12.680 Marcano for her support. Additional thanks to Jennifer Simmons. Kaliba. 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:17.360 Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:21.040 by Mybe Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:26.320 the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.