Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is a bonus episode of Betrayal.
Speaker 1: For this bonus episode, we'd like to share more excerpts
Speaker 1: from the survivors group discussion. Because of these women, Ember, Natalie, Stephanie,
Speaker 1: and Saskia had so much more to say than we
Speaker 1: could fit in one episode. This discussion was moderated by
Speaker 1: a professional.
Speaker 2: Having conversations with survivors is really near and dear to
Speaker 2: not just my heart, but to Rain's heart.
Speaker 1: Megan Cutter is the chief of Victim Services at RAIN,
Speaker 1: the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. RAIN has been
Speaker 1: working with us throughout season five.
Speaker 3: Healing is not a linear journey. It's not a straight line.
Speaker 3: So I want to talk about that concept with all
Speaker 3: of you and would love to get a sense of,
Speaker 3: like how do you to find healing for you? And
Speaker 3: I think this can be a conversation of like how
Speaker 3: this feels, how's this show up? So let's talk about healing.
Speaker 4: I think that's the hard part.
Speaker 5: There's no like arrival.
Speaker 1: That's Ember. It's been two decades since she found out
Speaker 1: her then fiance was drugging and raping her.
Speaker 4: If you had asked me twenty years ago, I would
Speaker 4: have been like, yeah, by twenty years in, I would
Speaker 4: be all better. I'm not even think about this anymore.
Speaker 4: I wish it was something where we could just flip
Speaker 4: the switch and never think about it again. My capacity
Speaker 4: has changed, though, my ability to not judge myself. That
Speaker 4: was a huge thing that I had to get over.
Speaker 4: Was like, why am I not better? So I went
Speaker 4: internal with a lot of it for a very long time.
Speaker 4: I still think of it almost every day, but it
Speaker 4: doesn't take my feet out from underneath me when I
Speaker 4: think about it.
Speaker 1: Then another survivor, Natalie, jumped in.
Speaker 6: Like you Embert, I'm going on twelve years.
Speaker 1: That's how long it's been since Natalie found images on
Speaker 1: her son's iPad of her husband assaulting her.
Speaker 6: I remember there being a time years ago where I'm like, no,
Speaker 6: I'm fine, Like I could totally handle this. I can
Speaker 6: deal with it. I'll just keep this inside and shove
Speaker 6: it in a little box and it's fine. And no
Speaker 6: it's not, because days would pop up and I'm like, ugh,
Speaker 6: I'm really not fine.
Speaker 7: I think you know, we all share this common feeling
Speaker 7: that I don't know how to fix my life after
Speaker 7: it's completely blown up like this.
Speaker 1: That's Stephanie. She shared her story in season one of
Speaker 1: Betrayal Weekly. After twenty three years of marriage, she found
Speaker 1: intimate photos of herself on her husband's laptop.
Speaker 8: But it was very empowering for me to share my
Speaker 8: story through the Betrayal podcast, And the best part of
Speaker 8: what came out of that is that the podcast producers
Speaker 8: connected me with Saskia, who is my absolute soul sister.
Speaker 1: Back when we first met Saskia, we immediately saw the
Speaker 1: parallels between her and Stephanie's stories, so we connected them
Speaker 1: via email. Email threads eventually turned into long phone calls,
Speaker 1: which gave way to a deep friendship. Stephanie even flew
Speaker 1: out to visit Saskia and Marilyn last summer. They watched
Speaker 1: TV together, went on walks, and when one of them
Speaker 1: felt overcome with grief or anxiety, they didn't have to
Speaker 1: explain because they both understood, here's Saskia.
Speaker 9: You know. To see how strong Stephanie was through this
Speaker 9: gave me more of the you know what I'm going
Speaker 9: to see that I can be a survivor, that I
Speaker 9: am a survivor, and that I can help other people
Speaker 9: with this. We can make sure that nobody else feels
Speaker 9: as alone as we did. I feel like I'm in
Speaker 9: really good.
Speaker 7: Company, and now to have Natalie and Ember also to
Speaker 7: join this terrible sisterhood that no one wants to be
Speaker 7: a part.
Speaker 6: Of is just really really powerful.
Speaker 1: Like the other survivors, Saski's effort to rebuild her life
Speaker 1: is ongoing.
Speaker 9: One thing that was so hard for me is that
Speaker 9: this was seven years of my life where I thought
Speaker 9: that I had a wonderful husband and a wonderful family,
Speaker 9: and I didn't know what to do with those seven
Speaker 9: years of memories. We had to not only deal with
Speaker 9: being raped, but also having our whole lives as we
Speaker 9: knew them fall apart. I wouldn't wish that anybody, but
Speaker 9: I think it allows us to kind of build back
Speaker 9: up and take some of our control back. But I
Speaker 9: think a necessary part is to gain more confidence, be
Speaker 9: more aware of our needs and our wants. Right. I know,
Speaker 9: I've learned that you do have to be a little
Speaker 9: bit selfish in life just to survive. I always thought
Speaker 9: that was a bad word, being selfish, But I think
Speaker 9: being selfless, you know, really enabled me to be taken
Speaker 9: advantage of.
Speaker 7: I think it's a matter of not selfishness, but self preservation.
Speaker 7: I have learned and I see that in you also, Saskia.
Speaker 7: We have finally figured out that we need to pryoritize ourselves,
Speaker 7: our feelings and taking care of ourselves and not just
Speaker 7: everybody else.
Speaker 1: Right around the same time, Saska reached out to us
Speaker 1: Gizelle pellicoas story was gaining international attention. Gazelle is the
Speaker 1: woman in France whose husband drugged and raped her over
Speaker 1: the course of a decade and invited dozens of other
Speaker 1: men to do the same. Megan Cutter, the facilitator for Rain,
Speaker 1: brought up Gizelle's case with the group.
Speaker 2: When you see stories in the news in the media.
Speaker 2: Over the last year or so, we've seen a lot
Speaker 2: of conversation about Gizelle Pellico and her story. What's the
Speaker 2: impact of seeing a story like Gizelle's in the media
Speaker 2: or hearing on the podcast a story similar to your own.
Speaker 7: I felt like the Gizelle Pello Coast story has really
Speaker 7: important in bringing awareness to the whole world that there
Speaker 7: is such a thing as marital rape, marital sexual abuse.
Speaker 1: That's Stephanie again.
Speaker 8: Her country gave her the privilege of having her anonymity,
Speaker 8: but she still went forward to bring this abuse onto
Speaker 8: a national international spotlight, which was just amazing.
Speaker 5: Here's ember I go on TikTok social media, Instagram, and
Speaker 5: I can come across just in my schooling, so many
Speaker 5: accounts of people talking about sexual abuse, and it's like, Okay,
Speaker 5: people are talking about this in the public square where
Speaker 5: that was not the case twenty years ago. But is
Speaker 5: it where it needs to be. No, let's not just
Speaker 5: put ourselves in the back as a culture and say,
Speaker 5: look at us, We've become so much better at this.
Speaker 5: It's like better doesn't necessarily mean good, you know, on
Speaker 5: what more do we need to do?
Speaker 1: Then Natalie brought up another high profile sexual abuse case,
Speaker 1: one that's all polarizing public reaction.
Speaker 6: When you said in the media, I remember Bill Cosby,
Speaker 6: and I was listening to that and just listening to
Speaker 6: commentary from people just being so angry and wanting to
Speaker 6: stand up for those victims and trying to educate people
Speaker 6: on how wrong it is.
Speaker 1: Bill Cosby was America's dad, but in twenty fourteen and
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, more than sixty women came forward accusing him
Speaker 1: of drugging and raping them. The victims were torn apart
Speaker 1: in the press and online, many were accused of making
Speaker 1: these allegations up for fame or financial gain.
Speaker 6: I didn't realize at that time, but I feel exactly
Speaker 6: what those other victims or feeling and being labeled as
Speaker 6: that is just something shameful to Carrie. People give their opinions,
Speaker 6: and sometimes it would just be really hard, because you know,
Speaker 6: you just have to sit there and kind of take it.
Speaker 2: We talk a lot at RAIN about the myth of
Speaker 2: the perfect victim.
Speaker 1: We think a lot about this myth on betrayal too,
Speaker 1: how it contributes to some survivors being perceived as more
Speaker 1: sympathetic believable, while others are written off.
Speaker 2: The perfect victim. They weren't drinking, they weren't using drugs,
Speaker 2: They remembered every single moment of their abuse, and they
Speaker 2: remembered it in order, and they went right to the
Speaker 2: police and they said, I need help right away. And
Speaker 2: this idea of what someone quote unquote should do when
Speaker 2: they experience sexual violence, which is not at all aligned
Speaker 2: with how trauma works in the brain, how abusers function
Speaker 2: like it's not real. And when someone doesn't match that idea,
Speaker 2: there can be judgment, there can be shame. There can
Speaker 2: be a lot of putting something on the survivor. Have
Speaker 2: there been moments when you all have questioned your own
Speaker 2: experience because of the expectations put on you by that
Speaker 2: perfect victim dialogue.
Speaker 4: When you look at like the perfect victim. I was
Speaker 4: not a partier. I wasn't out drinking regularly. I didn't
Speaker 4: have a fake ID, I never did drugs. Even with that,
Speaker 4: it was deemed a non credible witness by the first
Speaker 4: two police officers that I spoke to, and they're like, yeah,
Speaker 4: your testimony won't stand. You know, DA won't pick this
Speaker 4: up if I don't remember things in a linear way.
Speaker 4: It's so frustrating. I wasn't somebody of ill repute. It
Speaker 4: didn't make any difference in my case.
Speaker 1: Then Saskia spoke. She knew firsthand what it meant to
Speaker 1: be held to that perfect victim standard. She lived through
Speaker 1: it in her divorce case with Mike.
Speaker 9: I feel like he was given every grace, every oppera
Speaker 9: tunity to just shit on me, my mental health, my
Speaker 9: substance use and abuse. We've been so traumatized already to
Speaker 9: have to then put your life on display and talk
Speaker 9: about your vulnerabilities and defend them. I couldn't have expected
Speaker 9: the nightmare.
Speaker 1: Saskia did conform to the perfect victim narrative in at
Speaker 1: least one way. She rushed to report Mike, her abuser,
Speaker 1: the moment she realized what was happening.
Speaker 9: But I think back, and if I had my wits
Speaker 9: about me, maybe I would have chose more self preservation. Right.
Speaker 9: I had two stepdaughters, and as soon as I discover
Speaker 9: what happened, they were pulled from my lives and the
Speaker 9: lives of my kids. My kids had to see me
Speaker 9: falling to my knees. So I have guilt for some
Speaker 9: of the things that I did too. You know, I
Speaker 9: don't think that I'm better than anybody because I chose
Speaker 9: this path. We all have to give ourselves grace for
Speaker 9: our choices and what we had to do to survive.
Speaker 2: I am sitting with what each of you have shared
Speaker 2: and talked about, and I think it's reminding me survivorship
Speaker 2: is not a monolith, right, And I imagine for people
Speaker 2: listening to this too, to hear that there are different
Speaker 2: ways to navigate this will hopefully make them feel like
Speaker 2: whatever way they're trying to stay safe is okay and
Speaker 2: is right and is valid.
Speaker 3: My last question is, if there's a survivor listening to this,
Speaker 3: what was it that you wish for them?
Speaker 4: My wish and desire for you is that you would
Speaker 4: know that you are loved, that you deserve safety and
Speaker 4: kindness and compassion exactly as you are right now.
Speaker 10: I want any victim survivor of this to know that
Speaker 10: she did nothing to cause this, and the shame is
Speaker 10: one hundred percent on the perpetrator, and.
Speaker 5: You're not alone.
Speaker 6: Carrying that shame is really what kept me from a lot,
Speaker 6: and it really isn't yours secure, It's not ours to carry.
Speaker 9: I think I would share that it's not what happens
Speaker 9: to you, it's what you do with that and how
Speaker 9: you respond to it. That shows the type of person
Speaker 9: that you are. And it's possible to have something so
Speaker 9: tragic happened to you and still have goodness and hope
Speaker 9: and not let anyone take that away from you.
Speaker 1: For resources on sexual violence, visit RAIN dot org slash
Speaker 1: betrayal that's our ai n N dot org slash betrayal.
Speaker 1: You can also get free confidential twenty four seven support
Speaker 1: through Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text hope to
Speaker 1: six four six seven three or call one eight hundred.
Speaker 6: Sixty five six.
Speaker 1: Hope you are not alone. If you would like to
Speaker 1: reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell
Speaker 1: us your story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: That is Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com, or follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at betrayal Pod. To access additional content
Speaker 1: and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our substack
Speaker 1: at Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful for your support.
Speaker 1: One way to show support is by subscribing to our
Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.
Speaker 1: Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank
Speaker 1: you to all of our listeners.
Speaker 3: Betrayal is the.
Speaker 1: Production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group,
Speaker 1: in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced
Speaker 1: by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by
Speaker 1: me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Leah Jablo, with
Speaker 1: additional production by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman.
Speaker 1: Our story editor is Monique le Board, also produced.
Speaker 4: By Ben Fetterman.
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Olivia Hewitt, Production management by Kristin Melcurrie,
Speaker 1: additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali
Speaker 1: Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with
Speaker 1: additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia,
Speaker 1: her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson
Speaker 1: and Carrie Lieberman. The roundtable discussion was led with the
Speaker 1: Hell of Rain, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network.
Speaker 1: Thank you to our facilitator Megan Cutter and to Angelina
Speaker 1: Marcano for her support. Additional thanks to Jennifer Simmons. Kaliba.
Speaker 1: Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided
Speaker 1: by Mybe Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit
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