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Speaker 1: Hmm, are we okay for noise? By the way, it's

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Speaker 1: Friday night.

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Speaker 2: It's Friday, Friday night, It's Friday night. We should do

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Speaker 2: something that was so fine the night?

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Speaker 1: It wasn't that all right? I know? Just to sing?

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Speaker 1: What did we? We?

7
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Speaker 2: Sang?

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Speaker 1: Still my escape going in June of this year. I'm

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Speaker 1: completely unsure about what to do with Damien Hirst's beautiful

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Speaker 1: studio space next to the River Cafe, which he was

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Speaker 1: giving to us for the memorial for Richard Rogers. My husband,

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Speaker 1: a friend, Jonah Freud, introduced me to s Devlin by text.

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Speaker 1: A few hours later, I found myself talking to her

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Speaker 1: while she put her child to bed at midnight. S

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Speaker 1: the design of the set for Beyond his concert, the

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Speaker 1: West End production of the Crucible, the fashion show for Youth.

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Speaker 1: Saint Laurent had recently finished her radical book in Atlas

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Speaker 1: of s Stevlin. At the end of the conversation, she said,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what, Ruthie, I'm going to Lisbon tomorrow morning.

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Speaker 1: Why don't I stop over on the way to the

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Speaker 1: airport is eight o'clock oka, of course, s I said,

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Speaker 1: already exhausted. She arrived at day on the dot we've

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Speaker 1: had a look at the space. She told me what

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Speaker 1: to do and got straight into a taxi to make

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Speaker 1: the flight. This was s spontaneous, generous, positive, creative, funny

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Speaker 1: and very smart. As I write this, S is in

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Speaker 1: the restaurant talking to Charles pull and our manager about

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Speaker 1: what makes the River Cafe a set a place that

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Speaker 1: is active and calm, dark and light, noisy and quiet

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Speaker 1: at different times of the day. When it comes back

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Speaker 1: from all this, we'll talk about food, theater, space, books,

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Speaker 1: family and cooking, and most of all, we will talk

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Speaker 1: about friendship, and we will talk about love.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Yes it's beautiful. Don't change a word.

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Speaker 1: So you know the drills. And we asked you to

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Speaker 1: choose from all the recipes of all the books from

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Speaker 1: the last twelve cookbooks. So I'd like ask you why

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Speaker 1: you chose this recipe for kanelini bean soup.

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Speaker 2: But this is from the first book. And of course

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Speaker 2: my first encounter when the River Cafe first was open,

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Speaker 2: when I was first able to come, which took a

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Speaker 2: while to get my table, and then when the book

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Speaker 2: came out and we were fans, so I wanted to.

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Speaker 1: And well back then it.

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Speaker 2: Was probably me in France read before I met my

46
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Speaker 2: husband Jack. But my husband Jack is an extraordinary cook.

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Speaker 2: He makes this canelini bean soup and he makes it

48
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Speaker 2: very specifically with a piece of toast in the bottom.

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Speaker 2: And he did teach me how to make it. So

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Speaker 2: I have made it okay, but more often I have

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Speaker 2: eaten it and that it didn't make it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I The recipe canellini bean soup. Serve six two hundred

54
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Speaker 2: and fifty grams cooked cannellini beans, a handful of fresh

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Speaker 2: sage leaves, two to three garlic cloves, peeled and chopped,

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Speaker 2: three tablespoons of olive oil, a bunch of fresh flat

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Speaker 2: leaf parsley chopped extra virgin olive oil in a large saucepan.

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Speaker 2: Cook the garlic in the olive oil until soft but

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Speaker 2: not brown. Add the parsley, then add beans and stir.

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Speaker 2: Put three quarters of the bean mixture into a food

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Speaker 2: processor with some reserved cooking liquid. Pulse briefly. You do

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Speaker 2: not want to pure. Add more of the cooking liquid

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Speaker 2: if necessary, but the soup should be thick. Return to

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Speaker 2: the saucepan and season. Reheat if too thick, add more

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Speaker 2: cooking liquid. Serve with generous amount of extra virgin olive oil.

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Speaker 1: And perhaps some toast.

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Speaker 2: And I would if I were Jack, I would be

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Speaker 2: toasting something in the bottom.

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Speaker 1: So you have that gorgeous toast and beans and oil.

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Speaker 1: So we love threems three ingredients, isn't it? You know, simplicity,

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Speaker 1: which I guess is perhaps the way you work it is.

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Speaker 2: And also I don't eat meat, so and I, as

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Speaker 2: you mentioned, I use quite a lot of energy, so

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Speaker 2: I have to be quite careful to make sure I

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Speaker 2: get a lot of protein without eating meat. And the

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Speaker 2: beans are amazing for that as well.

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Speaker 1: So, going back to the beginning, tell me about growing

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Speaker 1: up in the Devlin household. Where were you born?

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Speaker 2: I was born in Kingston Hospital in Kingston upon Thames,

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Speaker 2: not too far from here, proper suburbia, proper suburbia in

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Speaker 2: the western suburbs of London. And then my parents went

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Speaker 2: on a romantic weekend break to Rye in East Sussex,

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Speaker 2: and they bought a house on a whim on a

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Speaker 2: cobbled street called Mermaid Street which used to descend into

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Speaker 2: the sea. And the house had been lived in by

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Speaker 2: Conrad Aiken the poet and his daughter Joan Akin, the author.

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Speaker 2: So in my mind, the house spoke. There was a

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Speaker 2: model city, model town of Rye next to the house,

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Speaker 2: and we used to visit it every weekend because my

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Speaker 2: mother and father were so excited to invite their friends

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Speaker 2: to see the place they loved, so they would take

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Speaker 2: them to the model, which was a sone Lumier and

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Speaker 2: it told stories. So each house told a story, including

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Speaker 2: my house. So I was only six years old, so

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Speaker 2: in my head something made me think that objects could speak,

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Speaker 2: houses could speak the way that I think bean speak

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Speaker 2: and food speaks. So that was me growing up. And

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Speaker 2: my mother was a teacher.

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Speaker 1: What did she do.

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Speaker 2: She taught special needs children, dyslexic children. At that time,

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Speaker 2: she had taught lots of things, but she was teaching

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Speaker 2: dyslexic kids. And my dad was a journalist specializing in education.

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Speaker 2: They were both fascinated with education, actually, But my mom

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Speaker 2: prepared all the food. My dad could make scrambled eggs

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Speaker 2: on toast, that was really it. I'm worried that I

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Speaker 2: might be like my father was slightly known for only

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Speaker 2: cooking one thing. Okay, because I don't get very much.

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Speaker 1: That's fine, what is your one thing?

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Speaker 2: Well, I do make cheese and tomatoes, on toast quite well,

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Speaker 2: if it's good toast, and I sometimes put red pepper.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to use the vegan cheese.

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Speaker 1: Are you vegan and vegetarian?

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Speaker 2: Now I'm vegetarian, but I'm just trying to be as

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Speaker 2: smart as possible with the ingredients. But yeah, my mum

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Speaker 2: was in the kitchen. She was trying to manage everything.

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Speaker 2: There were four kids, four and she taught all day

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Speaker 2: and then he came home and cooked. Yeah, would you

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Speaker 2: sit down, all of you to do Yeah, every year.

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Speaker 2: But it was quite a lot of you know, back

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Speaker 2: then in the eighties and late seventies, quite a lot

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Speaker 2: of potato waffles, the freezer, whatever she had time for.

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Speaker 2: Then she got a slow cooker and she realized that

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Speaker 2: before she went to work, she could put all the

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Speaker 2: ingredients big meaty stews she could put.

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Speaker 1: She would do a.

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Speaker 2: White one or a brown one, and she put all

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Speaker 2: the ingredients of the chicken or whatever it was in there.

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Speaker 2: In the morning, she'd go out do her whole day teaching,

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Speaker 2: and then we would come home from school. The idea

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Speaker 2: was that the big stew would be there for us

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Speaker 2: to eat, and that worked well, no, because we liked

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Speaker 2: the potato waffles, so we would just go to the

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Speaker 2: freezer and get poor mam so she gave up after

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Speaker 2: that a bit.

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Speaker 1: So your father would come back. Would he work in London?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we only saw him at the weekend because he

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Speaker 2: would stay up in London to get to Rye at

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Speaker 2: the time, it's quite a track, so he would come

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Speaker 2: back at the weekends. So my mum was really holding

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Speaker 2: the four and we we all did a lot of things.

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Speaker 2: There was music lessons orchestra. We had a little yellow

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Speaker 2: citron Diane that we had to park facing downhill on

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Speaker 2: Mermaid Street, otherwise it wouldn't start if it was facing

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Speaker 2: uphill because then if it if it didn't start, you.

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Speaker 1: Could just roll it down.

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Speaker 2: She would put hot water bottles on it in the

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Speaker 2: winter to stop the points freezing. She had a little

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Speaker 2: plastic like a bonnet that you put on to stop

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Speaker 2: your hair getting wet. In the shower. She put one

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Speaker 2: of those over the whole car, a big bonnet to

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Speaker 2: stop it getting wet. But we would go to the

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Speaker 2: beach after school in the summer every day, to camber

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Speaker 2: Sands or to Winchelsea and we would My food memory

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Speaker 2: of that time I was sitting usually crappy weather, in

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Speaker 2: the wind and unwrapping foil crusty little pastries, and then

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Speaker 2: the sand, the grit of the sand would get in them,

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Speaker 2: and she would make these little pastry chicken pies. So

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Speaker 2: I remember the chicken in the sand. They were kind

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Speaker 2: of tasty with a bit of sand in them.

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Speaker 1: So you grew up in this house with four children,

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Speaker 1: where are you in the list of number two? Number two?

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Speaker 1: And the mother who worked, a father who was absent,

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Speaker 1: and you had a meal every night that you would

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Speaker 1: sit around the table and would you all talk about

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Speaker 1: what you've done during the day, just eat and then

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Speaker 1: do the homework.

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Speaker 2: Was noisy, very noisy, and kind of My brothers went

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Speaker 2: to boarding school for a while. I think it was

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Speaker 2: all too much, probably for my mum to manage four

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Speaker 2: kids at once, so they went off for a bit

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Speaker 2: and they would come back in the holidays and it

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Speaker 2: was very, very noisy, and there were friends over, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was food and noise and talking.

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Speaker 1: And at lunch, would you take your lunch to school?

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Speaker 1: Did you get lunch school food?

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Speaker 2: School food? Yes? Oh yes, oh yes. School food was

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Speaker 2: horrible rice puddings that were all skinny, and you had

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Speaker 2: to eat it all. It was a local school called

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Speaker 2: Frieda kardam in Rye Primary School, and then we moved

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Speaker 2: to Kent to go to a school called Cranbrook School,

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Speaker 2: which was a grammar school. They had a little cafeteria

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Speaker 2: that you would choose your food, but we just did

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Speaker 2: eat the potato waffles.

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Speaker 1: And came back to the I'm afraid it's such a

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Speaker 1: shame because I've never seen a potato. I guess I

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Speaker 1: have to go through the British education system had a potato.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, in fairness to my mum, the the

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Speaker 2: fact that you know, we were annoying children who liked

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Speaker 2: processed food was not her fault. She's a fantastic cook.

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Speaker 2: She makes great big themed I mean, she would make

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Speaker 2: ridiculously crazy birthday cakes, theatrical, perhaps extraordinarily the I mean.

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Speaker 2: My mum's a great artist, as is my dad. They

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Speaker 2: didn't pursue art as her career, but all of our

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Speaker 2: birthdays were always it would be a themed mermaid cake

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Speaker 2: with mermaid biscuits. I am I'm pretty terrible because I

196
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Speaker 2: do when I eat a meal, and I've been served

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Speaker 2: the most beautiful meals in my life by my husband

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Speaker 2: and others, But I tend to eat the conversation. Yeah,

199
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Speaker 2: the food tastes of the thought. That's fine, that's a story.

200
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Speaker 2: That's a story of food. And I think food can

201
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,400
Speaker 2: be a story. And I think you know, what you

202
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,840
Speaker 2: eat is so much obviously more than what's going in

203
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Speaker 2: your mouth. And the lighting. I am obsessed with what

204
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Speaker 2: the light is. I can't if I walk into a restaurant,

205
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Speaker 2: the light is where I will probably go up to

206
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Speaker 2: the person's say, can I just dim this switch here?

207
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Speaker 1: So what is the lighting that you like? Low? Low?

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Speaker 2: Or outside and being in the like just now, we

209
00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 2: were sitting outside your beautiful piazza. So either natural light

210
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Speaker 2: or the light of the fire. Yeah, by the fire,

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Speaker 2: the food by a fire.

212
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I'm Charles Pullan, executive director of the River Cafe, and

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Speaker 3: we are sitting on the table one oh six on

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Speaker 3: the terrace outside on a Friday afternoon, and I'm about

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Speaker 3: to talk with es Devlyn. Very exciting. We want to

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Speaker 3: get her take on the feel and the energy and

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Speaker 3: the design of the River Cafe. So rather than one

219
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Speaker 3: of her sets that we do all over the world,

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Speaker 3: be rather interesting just for us to hear what your

221
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,240
Speaker 3: take is on the space that we use. As people

222
00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,839
Speaker 3: arrived through the front door, their first view as they

223
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,839
Speaker 3: look left down the length of the very long dining

224
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Speaker 3: room is that it's the big pink word oven than

225
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,239
Speaker 3: the fire in there flickering away, which has a wonderful

226
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Speaker 3: purpose of shrinking the room in a way and making

227
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Speaker 3: it feel cozy and make it feel much more intimate

228
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Speaker 3: despite the facts it is a very long, large dining room.

229
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Speaker 3: It's such a such a sort of hackneyed old reference,

230
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Speaker 3: the fact that there is so much in common with

231
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,880
Speaker 3: the theater and the restaurant world. But it's a truism

232
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Speaker 3: because there are so many parallels with how you gear up,

233
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,800
Speaker 3: you rehearse your audition, but then there's the energy that

234
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,439
Speaker 3: just before service, just before the curtains up, and then

235
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Speaker 3: you all jump into your roles. And so we've always

236
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Speaker 3: talked about the staff and the food and all that

237
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Speaker 3: side of things. But from your point of view, it

238
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Speaker 3: might be interesting to hear how the kind of design

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Speaker 3: of the dining room itself comes into play.

240
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Speaker 2: I think the comparison between the performative aspects of the

241
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,600
Speaker 2: delivery of food and the physical aspects of being backstage

242
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,040
Speaker 2: and front stage are clear. I don't find them hackneyed.

243
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,800
Speaker 2: I think they're fascinating. When I was here last time,

244
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:50,880
Speaker 2: it was an evening. The weather was a bit like this,

245
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 2: maybe not so sunny, but we all gathered in bright

246
00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,760
Speaker 2: clothes in honor of Richard's love of bright colors, all

247
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Speaker 2: around the banks of this piazza, and.

248
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Speaker 1: Of course the river. It's called the River car favor reason.

249
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Speaker 2: We are adjacent to this great planetary force that runs

250
00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,959
Speaker 2: through our city. So for me, those fundamental forces of

251
00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:18,920
Speaker 2: the fire in the bright crimson furnace, and the river

252
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,679
Speaker 2: that's here, this green piazza of grass that's outside, the

253
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,760
Speaker 2: vivid color of the doors everywhere in the toilets, this

254
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:30,679
Speaker 2: beautiful red orange fluorescent color. Right, So, I think all

255
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,920
Speaker 2: of those energies are felt even when you're inside. We're

256
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,720
Speaker 2: sitting outside now, but I believe they're felt inside as well.

257
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,760
Speaker 2: And of course the color that the idea that when

258
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,520
Speaker 2: you eat, you're not just eating food, you're eating color.

259
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,200
Speaker 2: You're eating light because the way that light reverberates off

260
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,800
Speaker 2: objects to create color. You're eating what you smell, You're

261
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,440
Speaker 2: eating the conversation that you might be having with someone.

262
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,160
Speaker 2: That's what you're eating. That's what you're nourished by. So

263
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,520
Speaker 2: much more than molecules that you need is fuel, right,

264
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,719
Speaker 2: and that's this place has always celebrated that. And of

265
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,880
Speaker 2: course what's beautiful about it in my understanding of the

266
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,680
Speaker 2: etymology of this restaurant and why it's so duly loved,

267
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,760
Speaker 2: is because it began as a place of work, didn't

268
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,640
Speaker 2: It began as a canteen to feed those who were

269
00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,719
Speaker 2: working together to make buildings.

270
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,760
Speaker 3: The paper tape cloth here is absolutely was here so

271
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,440
Speaker 3: that Richard could get out its pens and squibble on

272
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,120
Speaker 3: them and design the next compute, whatever it might have been.

273
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Speaker 2: And I think that's why it feels so rooted in

274
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,240
Speaker 2: this spot. It's here for more reasons than one might think,

275
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,520
Speaker 2: even on the surface. Of course, now it's become this

276
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,760
Speaker 2: incredibly sought after place to have some of the finest food,

277
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,080
Speaker 2: with the finest produce, with some of the most successful

278
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:48,400
Speaker 2: and accessible and readable and beautiful cookbits that have ever

279
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,640
Speaker 2: been made. But it started because a team at lunch

280
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Speaker 2: time needed to eat in a place where there aren't

281
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,280
Speaker 2: many restaurants. And it started from we always talk about

282
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Speaker 2: in any kind of work of art, what was the

283
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,360
Speaker 2: need it need to be made, and this needed to

284
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,960
Speaker 2: be made, like Ruthie and Richard needed to be together,

285
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,440
Speaker 2: like you know, their need of each other sort of

286
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,280
Speaker 2: resonated through all their friends and the vast kind of

287
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,240
Speaker 2: circle of people they've gathered around them, which I really

288
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:20,200
Speaker 2: witnessed when I was here on that the way.

289
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Speaker 1: I understand that you cook for the people that you

290
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,240
Speaker 1: work with as any yeah every day.

291
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Speaker 2: Yeah so I don't cook, but I have a cook

292
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,720
Speaker 2: who makes meals every day. And we started that probably

293
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,880
Speaker 2: about seven years ago when we moved to a studio

294
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,480
Speaker 2: that didn't really have an easy way for people to eat.

295
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,400
Speaker 2: But also it was part of balancing our carbon footprint

296
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,760
Speaker 2: and it seemed much more sensible. If I have around

297
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,520
Speaker 2: eight to ten people in the studio every day, we

298
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,080
Speaker 2: make them vegetarian food. There's no food waste, there's no packaging,

299
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,360
Speaker 2: no one's running around getting bits of things in plastic

300
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 2: boxes or anything. But it was what's something I could do.

301
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,920
Speaker 2: You know, we still fly. I can diminish it, but

302
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,680
Speaker 2: I can't completely get rid of that from my practice

303
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,200
Speaker 2: at the moment. But what I can do is serve

304
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,960
Speaker 2: everyone a really nice vegetarian all eat together. Yeah, we

305
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,720
Speaker 2: will stop work. We go around the table in my house,

306
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,000
Speaker 2: there's a garden there. We all sit down and we eat.

307
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,480
Speaker 2: We have a wonderful lady called Chia who's cooking for

308
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,840
Speaker 2: us at the moment. We had Antonio until she had

309
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,440
Speaker 2: to leave. But that's really important for me that we sit,

310
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,720
Speaker 2: we talk to each other, we eat great food.

311
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Speaker 1: I think that again, how you combine work food. You

312
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,960
Speaker 1: know that people who need to go out and go

313
00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 1: for a walk to stop the people the idea of

314
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,120
Speaker 1: the business lunch where you go to a restaurant and

315
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,920
Speaker 1: you discuss work, which was an anathemat It rends a

316
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,640
Speaker 1: piano Richard's partner. He thought, I remember when they were

317
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,280
Speaker 1: doing the Pompa. It was like either you ate or

318
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,520
Speaker 1: you worked. You never would, you know, combine the two,

319
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,600
Speaker 1: you know, the idea of enjoying a meal while you

320
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 1: talked about work, you continue the work of the meal or.

321
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,120
Speaker 2: Usually not normally, we just talk about stuff we want

322
00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,640
Speaker 2: to talk about. It's not working over lunch. And everyone

323
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 2: goes out for a walk after lunch because we're near

324
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,280
Speaker 2: Dulwich Park, so people go out, they wander off, they

325
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,760
Speaker 2: get a coffee, they have all break but normally know

326
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 2: the conversation. Either we're silent. Sometimes sometimes we just need

327
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:13,800
Speaker 2: a break and we will sit there. We're happy in

328
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,960
Speaker 2: each other's company, just eating. We're very happy to say nothing.

329
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 2: Or we just chit chat about any old thing that's

330
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,800
Speaker 2: nothing to do with work. Or we invite people to lunch.

331
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,800
Speaker 2: A lot of the time there are a lot of

332
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,800
Speaker 2: kids who want to see the studio who might not

333
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:32,960
Speaker 2: otherwise experience what a studio is like. So we're busy,

334
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,680
Speaker 2: but we're always stopping for lunch. So we say come

335
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,960
Speaker 2: to lunch, so they come. They get the vibe. Everyone's

336
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,520
Speaker 2: not panicking because they're not meant to be working. It's

337
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,320
Speaker 2: a time for a break.

338
00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,399
Speaker 1: And you're quite solitary.

339
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,000
Speaker 2: I love being on my own. I love reading. I

340
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,360
Speaker 2: always draw when I read. I write when I read,

341
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 2: I draw, I have to underline. I can't read without

342
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,120
Speaker 2: a pen in my hand. I love it on my own,

343
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:57,920
Speaker 2: but I don't spend very much time on my own

344
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,480
Speaker 2: because I have two children out and I have eight

345
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,560
Speaker 2: people in my studio minimum, so I'm rarely on my own,

346
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,360
Speaker 2: so I really cherish it when I am.

347
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,720
Speaker 1: Because we were talking the other day about artists and alcohol,

348
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,680
Speaker 1: and drinking and going out and being together in the

349
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 1: evening because so many artists are alone during the day

350
00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 1: that then when it's sort of over, you want to

351
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,680
Speaker 1: kind of go out to be out. Did you have

352
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,960
Speaker 1: that period in your life before you had children you

353
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:26,800
Speaker 1: were working and then partying.

354
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think the time when I moved

355
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,600
Speaker 2: to London, when I was at early teens. You know,

356
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:33,920
Speaker 2: it was magical. My boyfriend at the time was.

357
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 1: Sixteen is young.

358
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:35,600
Speaker 2: I was young.

359
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 1: Well your parents were fine with that.

360
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,399
Speaker 2: And not really no. Yeah, I was kind of determined

361
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,080
Speaker 2: in what I wanted to do, and it was music.

362
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,720
Speaker 2: My boyfriend at the time was a record producer and

363
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,399
Speaker 2: a sound engineer, so I was with a lot of

364
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 2: musicians and I spent a lot of time in recording studios,

365
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,200
Speaker 2: just observing how music is made, how tracks are recorded,

366
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,400
Speaker 2: how music is edited. That was a really formative time

367
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,160
Speaker 2: to get under the skin of recording in music. And

368
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,679
Speaker 2: then when I was in Bristol, that was probably my

369
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 2: most party time. That was my hallucinogenic moment.

370
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,760
Speaker 1: Tell me about then when you left home.

371
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,680
Speaker 2: I was about sixteen and I fell in love with

372
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,760
Speaker 2: a man who was twenty four. I did finish school.

373
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:20,320
Speaker 2: But I spent a lot of time in London.

374
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,880
Speaker 1: Has that a domestic situation? Did you live in a

375
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,840
Speaker 1: house and have to cook and shop for yourself?

376
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,680
Speaker 2: But we do. You know, we had hardly ever been

377
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,040
Speaker 2: to a restaurant when we didn't go to restaurants ever,

378
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:32,959
Speaker 2: we didn't have the money for kids in a restaurant,

379
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 2: and restaurants in England at the time, it wasn't the

380
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,879
Speaker 2: same thing that we're talking about. Well, as I was

381
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,320
Speaker 2: growing up in the seventies and eighties, we never went

382
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,880
Speaker 2: to a I can remember going to a restaurant.

383
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 1: Once special occasion, or I think it.

384
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,240
Speaker 2: Was because the car broke down and we went and

385
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,440
Speaker 2: it had red walls and the parmesan was off. That's

386
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,840
Speaker 2: all I remember about a restaurant. So the first time

387
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 2: I really remember going to restaurants was when I was

388
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,720
Speaker 2: sixteen and I met my boyfriend and he would take

389
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,280
Speaker 2: me out in London to restaurants and we went to

390
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 2: Mister Wing and we ate duck pancakes. It's an Earl's

391
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:10,080
Speaker 2: Court and Julie's restaurant and those were the rest and

392
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:11,840
Speaker 2: I was like, wow, this is crazy.

393
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you ate in restaurants and maybe cooked for

394
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:16,120
Speaker 1: yourself or yeah.

395
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:17,679
Speaker 2: Then I did do a bit of cooking, and I

396
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 2: would have been at university when I got your book.

397
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 2: I didn't have any furniture. I had a wooden palette

398
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,160
Speaker 2: on the floor and I put cushions around it. And

399
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,399
Speaker 2: I would try and make the River Cafe recipes. That

400
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 2: was when I first got the blue book.

401
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,879
Speaker 1: And then you cooked your way through university? Did you

402
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:33,160
Speaker 1: stay there? Yeah?

403
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I did cook. Then I would eat veggie

404
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,800
Speaker 2: burgers in the cafe. Vegetarian at that I wasn't. No,

405
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,359
Speaker 2: I just like the veggie burgers. I wasn't vegetarian. Then

406
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 2: I would make chicken. I would do tie dinners, and

407
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 2: I would get the galangle and lime and coconut milk

408
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 2: and make chicken coconut milk soup. I would do that.

409
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 1: So when you left Bristol, and what did you do?

410
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 2: When I left Bristol, I had been writing, as you do.

411
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,439
Speaker 2: I was doing an English literature degree, so I was

412
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 2: reading and writing, reading, reading, writing for three years. But

413
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,720
Speaker 2: I also wanted to paint, so I painted a lot.

414
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 2: I painted my whole house, which was rented.

415
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:10,920
Speaker 1: Murals on the walls.

416
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 2: Yeah wow. And it was a rented apartment, and it

417
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,160
Speaker 2: had a shag pile carpet that I ripped off. It

418
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 2: was disgusting, had carpet all over the side of the bath.

419
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,199
Speaker 2: So I took all the carpets away and painted on

420
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,320
Speaker 2: the floor great big murals and painted a lot of

421
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 2: I made a lot of things.

422
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 1: Did your landlord ever stop by to visit?

423
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:28,399
Speaker 2: No?

424
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 1: In trouble.

425
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 2: When I left, I had to put it all. I

426
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 2: had to get a new shag pile carpet, put it back.

427
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,640
Speaker 1: So underneath some person's apartment, you should go back there

428
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 1: and lift up the carpet. Discovery and Michelangelo under under canvas,

429
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 1: you know.

430
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 2: Have a look in number one three five cotton brow

431
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 2: one three nine. I can't remember, but so I wanted

432
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 2: to make art there. And I went to Saint Martin's

433
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 2: and I did the foundation course.

434
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,120
Speaker 1: After the university, I did it all back front. It's

435
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 1: not bad to have one education and then have another.

436
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 1: I wasn't ready to go to art school.

437
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 2: Although I'd always made art at school, I wasn't ready

438
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 2: to go to art school, not least because if you

439
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,880
Speaker 2: went to art school you had to stay living at home. Yeah,

440
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 2: And I wanted to move. I wanted to live in Bristol,

441
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 2: so yeah, I went to Saint Martin's and had the

442
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,959
Speaker 2: most you know, rich year of just I was. I

443
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 2: was a mature student by then. Everyone else was eighteen.

444
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 2: I was twenty one and quite old. So I did

445
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 2: everything there. You really got into photography, printmaking, sculpture, made

446
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,360
Speaker 2: a lot of books. I sowed a book. I decided

447
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 2: a book had to be made completely stitched. And then

448
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 2: people kept saying to me, oh, you really should check

449
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 2: out this theater design course.

450
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: A'd sat minds There was a.

451
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 2: Specific one called Motley Theater Design Course, which was run

452
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 2: by a ninety three year old lady called Percy Harris,

453
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,159
Speaker 2: who's a bit of a legend in the world of

454
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: stage design. And I said, I don't really care about theater.

455
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 2: It's quite boring. I never sit through and was asleep,

456
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 2: or it's a music it's kind of embarrassing. Want to

457
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 2: do theater? And they said, no, no, just go and

458
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 2: check out this course. And I walked in and it

459
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 2: was this red room, smell of pot noodle. Definitely saw

460
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 2: a mouse.

461
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,640
Speaker 1: And where was it. It was in the.

462
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 2: Scene dock of the theater Royal Drury Lane at the time,

463
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: there was Miss Saigon. So every night you would hear

464
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 2: the helicopter coming down, and it was just ten students,

465
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 2: pretty much feral, slightly smelly. They hadn't left that room

466
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 2: for a year.

467
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 1: Wow.

468
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 2: They were just in and they were making. They had

469
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 2: little model theaters, they were listening to opera. There was

470
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 2: references and photographs and painting stuck all over the wall.

471
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 2: And I felt, I thought, this is my tribe. I'm

472
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: happy and I've never really left that room. In a way.

473
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: Whatever I'm making, it's in a room. My room now

474
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 2: is kind of like that. It's covered in stuff, Piles

475
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 2: and piles of books, tons of little drawings and pictures

476
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 2: all over the wall, lots of little sculptures, quite magical,

477
00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 2: lots of miniatures.

478
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: You have a beautiful voice. Did you sing? Do you know?

479
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 2: I did try and say occasion, I was so bad.

480
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 2: Funnily enough, I've learned to use my voice a bit now.

481
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 2: When I make sculptures, I speak in them. But about

482
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:12,360
Speaker 2: tell me more about that?

483
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: What do you mean?

484
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 2: Well, there's a work that's on in Miami at the

485
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 2: moment called Forest of Us and it starts as a

486
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 2: small film with me talking. Really just noticing the similarity

487
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 2: between the shape of human lungs and the shape of trees,

488
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 2: and just observing that. Then the film comes apart and

489
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 2: you walk into a sculpture that reverberates that observation. But

490
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 2: when I first made these types of works in twenty sixteen,

491
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 2: I would never have used my voice.

492
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: Like a lot of people.

493
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 2: If I heard my voice on an answering machine back

494
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: in the day when we had answers, I've been back.

495
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 2: Oh God, I don't sound like that. That's weird. I

496
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 2: sound you know, that's terrible that I got used to

497
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 2: it when I used to read my children's stories when

498
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: I put them to sleep, and I got used to

499
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 2: the different quality of sound. If I had one of

500
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 2: their heads on my chest, my voice sounded different, and

501
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 2: I got used to that, and I kind of became

502
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: comfortable with my own voice around.

503
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 1: Then, stories and boys and theater and designing the story

504
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 1: of your growing up, decorating the cakes to going to

505
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: Bristol and cooking Thai food and putting murals under carpets.

506
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: It's all about discovery and trying to find the story

507
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: with the theme underneath it. And then food is the same.

508
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: You have the ingredients. You try and think how you

509
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: can respect the ingredient, the simplicity of the ingredient, if

510
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: you're a vegetarian, if you're vegan, if you're trying to

511
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: do something with or without. It always is that kind

512
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: of restraint which then leads to the richness, doesn't it.

513
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 2: I think so when I think everything that you're just

514
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 2: describing there is also about seeking a very basic human

515
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 2: need for being participant in ritual. Yeah, and we were

516
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 2: talking actually a little earlier about river, caffe and ritual.

517
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: And you've got all the ingredients here for ritual. You

518
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: have the river, you have the fire, you have that

519
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 2: piazza of grass, And I think more and more it's

520
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 2: what we lack and it's what we seek. The storytelling

521
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: voice is another way of calibrating time. It's such a

522
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: tiny fragment of our existence as a species that we

523
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 2: calibrate time with a clock mechanical digital that's so recent.

524
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 2: It was always calibration by means of planet tree distance.

525
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: And when is the right time. When Richard was doing

526
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: Lloyd's they wanted to put a clock on the outside

527
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: of the building. How we went to Gane Tangley and said,

528
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: would you possibly design a clock. It was a real

529
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: whole long story, which is you had to call them

530
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: at a certain time of day, and somehow I was

531
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: very involved in this, and so I made the call

532
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 1: and you had to tell him right away what you wanted.

533
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: And so I said, mister Tangly, you know, this is

534
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: Richard Roger's wife, and we'd like to put a clock

535
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: on the outside of Lloyd's. Anyway, that's fantastic. I love

536
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: Richard Rogers's work, I love Lloyd's, I love insurance, I

537
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: love clock. This is a brilliant idea. And he thought

538
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: about it. We talked about it, and then he said,

539
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: there's there's just one thing that if I design a

540
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: clock for you, there's one condition. And I said what

541
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: would that be? And he said, the clock must not

542
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: tell the correct time. Wonderful, and you know, and they have.

543
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: Of course Lloyd's went next. You know, they weren't totally

544
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 1: but the idea that you could have a clock that

545
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 1: you knew as a you know, as a ritual, as

546
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,719
Speaker 1: a consistent which which would not be correct. It is okay,

547
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: I'll meet you under the Lloyd's clock, but I don't

548
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 1: know what time that will be.

549
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: I think so I think these these other ways of

550
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: calibrating time that are not digital. And I think one

551
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 2: of the things I started doing. I was traveling a

552
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: lot too much for a while, and to sort of

553
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: earth myself, I would every morning when I would wake up,

554
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 2: I wouldn't quite know where I was. Straight away, I

555
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 2: didn't know, and I would just observe the light coming

556
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 2: through the gap in the two curtains, and for a

557
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: while I just say, Okay, I don't know anything else.

558
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: I just know that line of light. And I started

559
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: photographing them, and I've been doing it for about twenty years,

560
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 2: and I now I'm in a state where in the morning,

561
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: even if I wake up at home, I don't have curtains.

562
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: I have blinds. So what you see are these two.

563
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 1: Squares have light.

564
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: Two yeah, beautiful squares of light. And actually the door

565
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 2: doesn't quite shut probably, so I often get a line

566
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 2: of light through the door and I just sit with those.

567
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: I set my alarm twenty minutes before I have to

568
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: get up, which is what time normally I get up

569
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: around seven point thirty. But I try to just have

570
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: that moment with the lines of light, like a sort

571
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: of you know, the room is a sun dial.

572
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: The River Cafe is excited to announce the return of

573
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: our Italian Christmas Gift Boxes, our alternative to the traditional

574
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: have the The gift boxes bring you all of our

575
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: favorites from the River Cafe, kitchen, vineyards and the designers

576
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: from all over Italy. They're available to pre order now

577
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: on Shop the River Cafe do co UK. Tell me

578
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: about the most recent or most interesting set you've done,

579
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: that you've worked out. Do we call them sets? Do

580
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: you still call themselves?

581
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: Well, you might call them a stage sculpture. I mean

582
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: I think historically set design hierarchically, Yeah.

583
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: Tell me about set design, well.

584
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 2: It sometimes has been perhaps regarded as something decorative or something.

585
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: So the only reason I am a little bit particular

586
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: about the words I used to describe it is it

587
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 2: just helps people to recognize that objects can be protagonists,

588
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: that environments can speak, that places speak, that you know,

589
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: a cup if it's picked up in this particular way

590
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: under a particular like can you know, be vocal about

591
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: stuff in the way that mountains can and rock scan

592
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: and stream scan, you know, and animals can. That's why

593
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,239
Speaker 2: I use stage sculptures a bit just to kind of

594
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: provoke a little bit, but a recent one. There's one

595
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: out on at the moment actually at the Gilgod Theater

596
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: for The Crucible, a.

597
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: Book that we all if you're American and you grew

598
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: up in high school in America, we all with the Crucible.

599
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: Tell me about the Crucible and this up well, when

600
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: you enter the space. It was at the Olivier Theater

601
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 2: at the National and now it's at the Gilgud Theater.

602
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 2: When you enter the space, it already confronts you because

603
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: it is a living box of water pouring, and in

604
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 2: the Gildgod particularly, it's somewhat unnerving because the gil Good

605
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: is a beautiful ornate iced cake of a proscenium Edwardian theater.

606
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: So it makes you anxious straight away to see this

607
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 2: water pouring like is there a giant leak? That it's

608
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: pretty powerful, and it already helps heighten the atmosphere. You know,

609
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: there's always that terrible moment when you go in a

610
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: theater and you've bought your popcorn or whatever. You sit down,

611
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: the seats are uncomfortable. You're with a friend. You're not

612
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: sure that they're going to like it. They might find

613
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 2: it boring, because theater can be crap, you know, and

614
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 2: crack theater is some of the crappiest thing you can imagine.

615
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: Because it's hard to do well.

616
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: So if you sit down and you've got all those anxieties,

617
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 2: will it be good? Will it be bad? Will I

618
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 2: be bored? If already there's a gesture that's confident, that

619
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: already says I'm going to look after you, I'll keep

620
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: You're safe, You're safe with me, then it's a bit

621
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: like a restaurant. You walk in and the colors are

622
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: being chosen, people already relax, And I think what happens

623
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 2: is people become already tuned in a little bit to

624
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: the vibration of the gesture.

625
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: Have the sets usually lit then before you when you

626
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: sit down, you can see what it's going to be.

627
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: Is it dark, going to light?

628
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 2: And well, it varies, but I'm trying to, I guess,

629
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: increase the porosity between the feeling of walking into the

630
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 2: Turbine Hall or the Serpentine and the feeling of walking

631
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 2: into the Gilgod Theater. And I think if you walk

632
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: in there's already a sculpture there, you engage in a

633
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 2: different way, and then of course the music begins, and

634
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: in this case, it's Caroline Shaw has done this extraordinary

635
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: work with an extraordinary musical director as well. And these

636
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: voices begin and they are cost you and you don't

637
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 2: have time to worry anymore. You're grabbed.

638
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: Do you work with a director from the very first,

639
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: when he starts or she starts thinking about how the

640
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: play is going to be directed? Because I do that

641
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: with a book. We don't write the recipes and then

642
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: talk to the photographer and the graphic designer. We all

643
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: sit around the table and think, what is every page

644
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: going to be? How are we going to photograph this

645
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: before we even cook it, or how are we going

646
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: to make the page make you want to cook a

647
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: recipe and make it clear. So it all starts with that.

648
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: And is that the way it is with you?

649
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 2: With Lindsay Turner, she's the director of the Crucible, and

650
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 2: she and I have worked together now for quite a

651
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: long time, for ten years. Actually, I spend quite a

652
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: lot of time on a farm in Sussex and she

653
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:01,959
Speaker 2: came down there oka tell me that I haven't I

654
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: only just got I haven't done much with it yet.

655
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: What do you want to do? This is a diversion

656
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: from the Crucible.

657
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 2: But well, my dream would be that the people in

658
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: my studio who are on computers a lot of the time,

659
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 2: I would really like it that on a Friday or

660
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: maybe once a month or what often we can do it,

661
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 2: they would come to the farm and put their hands

662
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 2: in the earth. And it's just a visual symmetry as well.

663
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 2: If these hands are on computer keys all the time

664
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: and these imaginations are everywhere, but the nature of our practices,

665
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: they're making models, but a lot of the time they're

666
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: on computers, and I think it be beautiful for them

667
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: to be hands in earth, you know, helping to grow

668
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 2: the food that we then eat. That would be the dream. Yeah,

669
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: that's the dream. So that's what we're great.

670
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: It takes time. We went to the farm with So I.

671
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: Went to the farm with Lindsay and we sat and

672
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: we read the Crucible. We just read the whole thing aloud.

673
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 2: And that's what we always do, is we read it

674
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: so that play exists between us. We just share the parts,

675
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: so that before we start, even before talking about.

676
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: Was it her idea to put it on? Was it her?

677
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: She brought it to the nation.

678
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 2: She had the vision to do it, and she had

679
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 2: a really clear vision for how she wanted to do it.

680
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 2: But even after that first reading, we started to say,

681
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 2: what if. What if the first scene was just this

682
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: group of girls sitting at the back of the congregation muttering,

683
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 2: and then one of them gets slapped and we just

684
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: see them from the back. So we sort of conjured

685
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: the first scene and that led to the environment and

686
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: the sculpture around it.

687
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: Would you direct yourself? Would you say I can do both?

688
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 2: Yeah? I sometimes do, especially with the music, and sometimes

689
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: but I really like the collaboration with the director. I

690
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: direct the materials and the you know how the life

691
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 2: video and the materials might coalesce, and she directs the

692
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 2: performers and the cast, and it's a lot of directing

693
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: of different material and human things.

694
00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: Do you go where do your players aren't? Do you

695
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 1: go often to see it? And how this said once?

696
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm normally onto, I'm normally onto the next thing,

697
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: but I love to go back. Yeah, you know, especially

698
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: towards the end, towards the final night.

699
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: What was it like working with Beyonce then from the

700
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: Crucible to Beyonce or was a Beyonce to the Crucible?

701
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 2: Well, I've been working with her for a long time

702
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: because we started in twenty fifteen. Oh yeah, that's a

703
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: very big team, lots of extraordinary collaborators over time all

704
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: over the world and a massive production and also with

705
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 2: able test Fay the weekend so his stadium show was

706
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 2: also happy at the same time, so there was one

707
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: night where you could go and see Beyonce the weekend

708
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 2: or another place near England, which is really good.

709
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: To see that on Monday, Yeah, way to see that.

710
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: I tell you what's fun about that is it's a

711
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: really divided audience. It's an audience who loved theater but

712
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: might not always be so interested in football. Yeah, it's

713
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: an audience who really might not normally set for in

714
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 2: a theater but love football, like my son who doesn't

715
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 2: like theater but likes football. So Ludo will come for that.

716
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: And at the beginning there's a little shiftiness like am

717
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 2: I going to hate this? How's it going to be?

718
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: And by the end, yeah, everyone is crying and singing

719
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 2: Sweet Caroline together and it's a bit like we've been

720
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 2: talking a little bit about national assemblies and how they

721
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 2: might form a new kind of form of governance and

722
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: new ways to participate in democracy, and actually at the

723
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: end of that it gives you hope that actually, given

724
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 2: the right stimulus and the right materials and environment, people

725
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: can find common ground.

726
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: In the pandemic. When we close the River caf If

727
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 1: you don't ask me what's important in the city, I

728
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: would have said, you're a theater of concerts, parks, playgrounds, hospitals.

729
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: You know, put restaurants way down. But you realize it

730
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: going to see what you're just describing, or to come

731
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: perhaps to a restaurant and see people you might not

732
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: have seen for years that you pump into or that

733
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 1: you're again the thing of being taken care of, that

734
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: you can walk in and feel that you know it's

735
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: going to be okay. You might have had an argument

736
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: or been stuck in traffic, or lost your job, or

737
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: getting divorced or getting married, or you know, happy things

738
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: are saved up for months to come, but that somehow

739
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: when what you want, and I think what I want

740
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: both of us, is to have somebody walk through the

741
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 1: door and feel it's going to be okay and leave

742
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 1: feeling better than when they arrived.

743
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: I think so, and I think it comes back to

744
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: ritual and the passing of time, because if you've been

745
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: working intensely, and you walk into a restaurant and you

746
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 2: know that there's going to be a new rhythm to

747
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 2: the rest of that day. First, it's going to be

748
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 2: the ritual, the welcome, the formalities, the choosing the glass

749
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: of whatever you're going to drink, the course one, the

750
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: course too. This is a clock in itself, the same

751
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 2: when you go to the theater. And actually, now after

752
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 2: having become temporarily extinct, all of my practice was temporarily extinct.

753
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 2: Me and Jack, we both have devoted our lives to

754
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: mass gatherings. Yeah, and suddenly mass gatherings were weapons of

755
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 2: mass destruction?

756
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: Did you do?

757
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:19,240
Speaker 2: Panicked? Talked a lot on zoom, became a radio station.

758
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 2: Would have been better to shut up and go off

759
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 2: and do a sabbatical, but didn't.

760
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 1: But we didn't know. I spent every day.

761
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 2: Jack looked at me, he said, as you're like a

762
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 2: mad sort of ringleader doing zooms. He said, just leave

763
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: your people alone. They're happy to have some time off.

764
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 1: But somehow the contact at some point, wasn't it what

765
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: I felt? Well, how we feel now?

766
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 2: Like the other day going to the weekend's concert where

767
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: it's eighty no screens, eighty thousand people singing together, one

768
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: five h eight man holding eighty thousand people in a stadium.

769
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: We look, we're pinching.

770
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 2: Ourselves, just thinking a few years ago this felt like

771
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 2: it would never happen again. And for me, it's so vital,

772
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 2: one of the most important things we do, I think,

773
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: as humans being together.

774
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's talk about this book. Yeah, let's definitely

775
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: talk about this book. I want you to describe this

776
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: people who are listening about what we have at the

777
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: table between you and myself.

778
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 2: So what's sitting in between me and Ruthie right now

779
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 2: is a book. It's a small twenty two centimeter square

780
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 2: by about I'm going to say about eight centimeters thick,

781
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: so it's a chunky object, and it's got a hole

782
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 2: cut out of the front. And then in the following

783
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 2: pages are more offset holes, and around the holes are

784
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: drawn the names of everyone who's ever participated in any

785
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 2: of the collaborative works that I've made over time. Then,

786
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 2: as you unfold its thousand pages, there are seven hundred

787
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: images mainly of a sort of parallel series of works

788
00:39:54,600 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: that I've been making for thirty years, small paper sculptures, paintings, drawings,

789
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 2: and then Finally, by the end there's fifty thousand words

790
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 2: in it as well of text of commentary, and then

791
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 2: by the end there are pictures of most of about

792
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty projects. So it's like doing a

793
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 2: big end of year tax return.

794
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 1: How long did it take you to.

795
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 2: I started it seven years ago, and then my first

796
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 2: deadline was four years ago, so I've been missing deadlines.

797
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 1: Really have four extra extra years of work.

798
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 2: That's it.

799
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: This is a very good way of putting it. I

800
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: had you stop four years ago, the book might have

801
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 1: stopped a lot of beautiful work.

802
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: This is true.

803
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 1: That's a bit. It's available in your local bookstore. It

804
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: is all good bookstores are online, yeah, and Amazon.

805
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: It's sitting number one, but number one best in artist monographs, and.

806
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: It's published by terms in Hudson. And it's a beautiful,

807
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: beautiful object, beautiful book, and it's showing beautiful work. So yeah,

808
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: to the next one. If we go back, if we

809
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 1: like ritual, tradition and consistency. If you think about food,

810
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: it's a question that I always ask at the end

811
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: of what has today been a wonderful conversation. Food is

812
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 1: we have when we're hungry, when we're tired. When, as

813
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: you say, you need protein, when you need energy, when

814
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: you want to feed your children or be fed. It's

815
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: also comfort. What would be a food you might go

816
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: to for comfort?

817
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: It is my cheese and tomatoes on top. It is.

818
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: It is. It's mainly tomatoes and.

819
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 2: Red peppers and with a bit of cheese on top,

820
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 2: and you know, some really good outive oil, some salt

821
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 2: and pepper. Make two slices of it, just bake it, yeah,

822
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:37,919
Speaker 2: and then maybe a little glass of wine.

823
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: Would that if we're going to the wine and the

824
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: cheese and tomatoes, that sounds like a very very comforting meal.

825
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,919
Speaker 1: Thank you for today, Thank you for my friend think.

826
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: Thank you. If you like listening to Ruthie's Table for

827
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: would you please make sure to rate and review the

828
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: podcast on the iHeart Rate app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or

829
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:10,479
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. Ruthie's Table four

830
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: is produced by Atomai Studios for iHeartRadio. It is hosted

831
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: by Ruthie Rodgers. It's produced by williem Lensky. Our executive

832
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: producers are Zad Rodgers and Fay Stewart. Our production manager

833
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: is Caitlin Paramore.

834
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: Special thanks to everyone at the River Cafe,