1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: Friends Media. You are by now, y'all know that we 3 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: are a fan of folks changing their minds. Got some 4 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: new information? Did somebody you love challenge something you said? 5 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: Just feel differently about something for reasons that you can't 6 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: explain yet, that's all good and well. 7 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:40,599 Speaker 2: I've changed my mind plenty of times, and. 8 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: I have two And if we're reading, listening to other people, 9 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: and thinking critically, then we're probably downloading a lot of 10 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: new data. And that means that sometimes, hey, you just 11 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: got to update the operating system. 12 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: And that could be a small update, or that could 13 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: be a complete overhaul of our political opinions in value systems. 14 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 2: That's cool when it seems like the person sees the 15 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 2: light and steps out of their ignorance. 16 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: But some folks hit a one to eighty on us 17 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: and woo, things get real sketchy. I'm Katie and I'm Eves. 18 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: Today's episode switching sides. From November nineteen thirty six to 19 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: April nineteen thirty eight, a writer named George Skyler published 20 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: two science fiction serials in the Pittsburgh Courier. They were 21 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: called The Black International and Black Empire. Black Empire continued 22 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: the story of the Black International. Yes, Skyler was black, 23 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: and yes, the serials tackle black issues. As you might 24 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: have guessed by the titles, the serials are fantastical stories 25 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: about a group of revolutionaries who overthrow white colonial rule 26 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: in Africa. Skyler initially published the serials under the pen 27 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: name Samuel I. Brooks. 28 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: Did people like the stories of the time? 29 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, they did. The couriers Black readers read the stories 30 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: week after week in the paper and loved them. So 31 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: these serials were buried for a while after Skyler's death, 32 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 1: But in the nineteen nineties, Robert A. Hill and R. 33 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: Kent Rasmussen were editors at the Marcus Garvey Papers at 34 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: the University of California, Los Angeles. In their research, they 35 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: dug up Skyler's serials, and in nineteen ninety one, Northeastern 36 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: University Press published both of the serials as a book 37 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: called Black Empire. Now, the publisher, Penguin Random House is 38 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: calling it a quote pioneering work of afrofuturism and anti 39 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,239 Speaker 1: racist fiction in its promotional copy. 40 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 2: Okay, afrofuturism, inter racist fiction go. 41 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: Off right and based on the plot that description sounds 42 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: pretty on point, right, but the narrative and Black Empire 43 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: and the story of its creation are more complex. Skyler 44 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: wrote this to a staffer at the Pittsburgh Courier. I 45 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: have been greatly amused by the public enthusiasm for the 46 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: Black International, which is hokum and hackwork of the purest vein. 47 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,279 Speaker 1: I deliberately set out to crowd as much race chauvinism 48 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: and sheer improbability into it as my fertile imagination could conjure. 49 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: The result vindicates my low opinion of the human race. 50 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: It's giving troll, but you know it wasn't just foolishness 51 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: for its own sake. And let me tell you about Skyler. 52 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: In the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties, Skyler was a 53 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: prolific and respected journalist. He wrote articles for the Pittsburgh Courier, 54 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: the New York Evening Post, and the Philadelphia Ledger, just 55 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: to name a few. He wrote a lot about race 56 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: in black and white owned newspapers. White folks didn't always 57 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: agree with its takes, and neither did black folks. In 58 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty six, for instance, he wrote an article for 59 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: the Nation called the Negro Art Hokum. In it, he 60 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: argued that black American art should not be treated as 61 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: different from American art. He would have hated this podcast. 62 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: You know, I think you're right. He said in that 63 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: article that white artists and black artists were both influenced 64 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: by Europeans anyway. Then he continued with his brutal takedown. 65 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: He called out black artists and thinkers who learned from 66 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: Europeans and their institutions like W. E. B. Du Boyce, sculptor, 67 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: Mita Vo Warwick Fuller, painter Henry Osawa Tanner. 68 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: So he was like dropping names, fire and shots directly, directly. 69 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: He was not afraid to put those names on the paper. Okay. 70 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: And this is during the Harlem Renaissance when black art 71 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: and aesthetics are being celebrated. But that didn't matter to Skuyler. 72 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: He said that it made sense that their work wasn't 73 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: really black, since quote, the Afro American is merely a 74 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: lamp black Anglo. 75 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: Saxon Ooh just caught him koos like, and he called. 76 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: Them that in the way that a petty but descriptive 77 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: writer would. Langston Hughes wrote a rebuttal in the magazine, 78 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: and there were people calling for sk to be fired. 79 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: He wasn't anyway. He published the book Black No More 80 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty one. It's a satirical novel about a 81 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: black American scientist who invents a way to turn black 82 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: people into white people. So he's writing a lot about race, 83 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: but his interest in politics and race relations shows up 84 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: off the page too. He's involved with civil rights organizations 85 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: like the NUBACP, even though some of his opinions are controversial. 86 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: For instance, he's critical of forced integration. You know, he 87 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: had some stances that weren't typical for the time, but 88 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: still black folks would generally consider him on their side 89 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: soon though they couldn't say the same with confidence more 90 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: after the break. So far, George Schuyler was still good 91 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: with black folks. He has some controversial views that they 92 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: cide eyed him for, but he was fine. That is 93 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: until the nineteen thirty when he became more conservative. He 94 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: started writing anti communist articles and becoming involved in anti 95 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: communist organizations. He said that MLK shouldn't have gotten the 96 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: Nobel Peace Prize. He said black separatists should be feared 97 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: more than white segregationists, and he thought the US should 98 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: be hands off in South Africa during apartheid. A nineteen 99 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: sixty six article called him one of America's two busiest 100 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: Negro apologists for racial segregation and colonialism. 101 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,119 Speaker 2: That's a good drag, you know, they say. Not only 102 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: are you an apologist for racial segregation and colonial you busy, 103 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 2: you busy doing it. 104 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: Takes up all of his time, a lot of time to. 105 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 2: Be doing this foolishness. I like that. I'm gonna put 106 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: that in my notebook. 107 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, for his stances, Scholar had racked 108 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: up some enemies, including the government. He was anti communists, 109 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: which is a plus for the FEDS. Of course, the 110 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: Kammis and leftist ideologies were big bad in the government's view, 111 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 1: and in the nineteen forties Skyler wrote at least fifty 112 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 1: columns about what he called the Communist conspiracy in the 113 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,239 Speaker 1: Pittsburgh Courier. But the FBI still viewed Skyler as a threat. 114 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: A nineteen forty three FBI report said the following, he 115 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: is always waging a fight for the Japanese and turned 116 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: out in California. He will write an article on this 117 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: subject every few weeks, blaming the US for putting these 118 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: Japanese Americans in camp. He spends a lot of paper 119 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: in ink worrying about them. It is difficult to understand 120 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: why he, a Negro, should be so much concerned about 121 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: the Japs instead of taking the part of his own 122 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: people and other loyal Americans. 123 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: I have the same questions that FBI. 124 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: Tell me about it, Katie, just like. 125 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: Why are you going up for them but then talking 126 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 2: bad about the sol rests movement? 127 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: Right? I think the way that he presented that argument 128 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: was just like, Okay, if they're doing this to the Japanese, 129 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: then they would do this to everyone like they would 130 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: treat everyone like this. 131 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: They treating people like that in South Africa. That you 132 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: said we should mind our business. 133 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it doesn't. I think a lot of 134 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: things that don't flow through logic for him. But yeah, 135 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: it wasn't like he always denied the terror that black 136 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: folks were dealing with. So he acknowledged the fact that 137 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: black people have been through a lot, that they've been 138 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: resourceful and resilient, and that they've had to put up 139 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: with white folks bs over all these years. But the 140 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: thing is he thought that liberals were horribly misguided in 141 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: the way that they dealt with the race issue. In 142 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six, he published an autobiography that's appropriately titled 143 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: Black and Conservative. He says in the autobiography, I had opposed 144 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: all of the Marches on Washington and other mob demonstrations, 145 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: recognizing them as part of the Red techniques of agitation, infiltration, 146 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: and subversion. This was indicated by the fact that invariably 147 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: they were proposed, incited, managed handled by professional collectivist agitators 148 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: whose only interest in the workers was to exploit them. 149 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: He also goes on to say that the civil disobedience 150 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: and teardowns of white people will just make black folks 151 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: more enemies, and it won't solve any problems, and he 152 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: had a problem with how the media uplifted the opinions 153 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: of civil rights leaders and not their critics. In his 154 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: later years, the Black Delegation pretty much disowned him, but 155 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: he stayed on the conservative wave until he died in 156 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven. Deep sigh, Right, it seemed like he 157 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: did a lot of waffling, like back and forth, switching 158 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: between things that didn't make sense, like you brought up 159 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: just now. Because he often called people who were in 160 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: the civil rights movements who were protesting people who he 161 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: considered black militants. He would often call them agitators. But 162 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: if like, just if you're looking at everything he's saying 163 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 1: and he's like, he's very prolific. He's written a lot 164 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 1: of stuff as a journalist, Like he is agitating too. 165 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: That's literally what he's doing. He's asking for a contrarian opinion. 166 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: He's presenting contrarian opinions in ways that are a pretty 167 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: harsh and brutal, sometimes in the way that he phrases them. 168 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: But in addition to that, he knows that his opinions 169 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: are contrary to the ones that a lot of other 170 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: people have at the same time, and to make it 171 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: seem like agitation is something that's to be condemned or 172 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: looked down upon, are disparaged. It feels pretty antithetical to 173 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: everything that he's doing because he is agitating as well. 174 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder learning about his comments about what he 175 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 2: wrote about in when he serialized the book, saying like, 176 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 2: oh I just did this and it was like a joke. Basically, 177 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 2: I wondered, like did he ever switch? Because I feel 178 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 2: like there's a lot of like black people who will 179 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 2: like write black stuff because they know it'll sell, but 180 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 2: they really don't feel like in community with other black people. 181 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 2: M I feel like that's what he was on because 182 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 2: he's like, oh, I put like this racial chauvinism and 183 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: it was, you know, a big Koko move he says. 184 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: So I'm like, did you ever switch? Because I read 185 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 2: Black note More that was my first thing I read 186 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 2: from him, and I was like, Oh, this guy he 187 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 2: has a lot to say about white people. He has 188 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: a lot to say about like black liberals in the 189 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: leadership class. Like there's a character in the book that 190 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,839 Speaker 2: was like Madam C. J. Walker and was like, oh, 191 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 2: like y'all not upset, y'all got nappy hair? No more 192 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: like how am I going to get rich? Or the 193 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: NAACP leader who's like, oh, y'all not getting lynch? No 194 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: more like how am I going to get a check? 195 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 2: So he had, you know, those impulses, which I got 196 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 2: those two, but it was really like about how society 197 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 2: treats black people and how like being racist like literally 198 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 2: doesn't make sense. That's what I got from the book. 199 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 2: But I think he could have just been doing it 200 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: for a check all along. 201 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: There is a general sense in his ideology that's like 202 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: even without racism, like we would always there would be 203 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: some sort of oppression, Like there are other things that 204 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: everybody deals with, and he's critical of the way that 205 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of protesters at the time, a 206 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: lot of people who were involved in the civil rights movement, 207 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: the way that they uplifted or I guess in his 208 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: view maybe belabored the point of racism and the divisions 209 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: that it created. But yes, it does seem like the 210 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: switch happened for him pretty early on, or he always 211 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: had these ideas because he at first seemed to be 212 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: dipping and dabbling in Marxism and in communist ideals. He 213 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: was reading socialist things, and from what I can tell, 214 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: sources have made it seem like, oh, he was reading 215 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: these things and that he was into these things at 216 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: the time. But I think there was an element of 217 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: he was reading them and he was into them as 218 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: a measure of just information gathering and trying to get 219 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: a lay on what his actual political ideologies were, and 220 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: that he may not have been that aligned with them 221 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: ever in the first place, is just something a direction 222 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: in which he was thinking about going other people who 223 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: shared some of his ideals, who did care about blackness, 224 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: so that's the thing, Like overall he cared about black 225 00:12:55,160 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 1: people's continuation, about the progress of the race seemingly, but 226 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: had beef with the way that everybody else did it. 227 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: And it just seemed like he tended more and more 228 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: right over time, So dipping and dabbling, maybe this, maybe that, 229 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: maybe left, maybe right, maybe somewhere in the middle. And 230 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: then over time he just got pretty conservative and started 231 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 1: to say things that didn't really make sense, but also 232 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: forefronted a lot of the I want government to be 233 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: hands off approach. Okay, a pioneer, I mean, a model 234 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: for so many people today. But after the break, we'll 235 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: talk about a person who Skyler might have considered a 236 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: black militant. Just two years after Skyler published Black and Conservative, 237 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: Eldridge Cleaver's autobiography, Sold on Ice came out. But Cleaver 238 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: wasn't anything like Skyler in the nineteen sixties, Skyler was 239 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: critical of militant black activist and he denounced separatism. Cleaver, 240 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: on the other hand, was a prominent member of the 241 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: Black Panther Party in the nineteen fifties and sixties. Cleaver 242 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: served time in California prisons for cannabis charges and assault 243 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: with the intent to murder. He read a lot while 244 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: he was locked up. He read folks like Malcolm X, 245 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: Thomas Paine, Richard Wright, and Karl Marx. He also wrote 246 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: about his own personal politics while he was in prison. 247 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: By the time he got out of prison in nineteen 248 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: sixty six, he had a bunch of essays that were 249 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: published in Ramparts magazine. These essays would eventually be put 250 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: into book form in Soul on Ice. In that autobiography, 251 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: Clever makes some disgusting admissions about raping women. He said 252 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: in hindsight that he didn't approve of his actions, but 253 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: either way it went. The Black Panther Party brought him 254 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: into the fold. When he got out of prison in 255 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, Cleaver was caught up in a shootout 256 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: between Black Panther Party members and the Oakland police, so 257 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: he fled the US and lived in exile in Mexico, Cuba, Algeria, 258 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: and France. Cleaver's relationship with leaders of the party soon 259 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: became strained, and in nineteen seventy one he left the 260 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: Black Panthers. 261 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: Like, not only left them, like turned on them. 262 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, He denounced them and he went back to 263 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: the US. In nineteen seventy five, his attempt at murder 264 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: charges were dropped and he had to do community service. 265 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: But things got really weird. He became a born again 266 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: Christian after dumping his old allegiance to Marxism, and he 267 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: was disgraced. He was no longer a respected revolutionary. Black 268 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: folks in the revolution didn't want much to do with him, 269 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: but Cleaver was deep in his new conservative bag. Anyway. 270 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: He continued on his crusade against black radicalism and Satanic communism, 271 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: and he did his best to lead people to Jesus 272 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: in a way from black nationalism. 273 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 2: I feel like he would do really well in twenty 274 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: twenty four as like a Blacks for Trump guy. 275 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: I agree with you. I mean, think about it. Look 276 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: at his story of transformation. He went from a militant 277 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: black rebel to a docile Bible thumper. But you know, 278 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: the white Christians tossed him to the side after a 279 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: while too. He became a Mormon. He got involved in 280 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: other kind of Christian leaning islam leaning religious situations, just 281 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: kind of of his own creation. He became addicted to 282 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: crack and he became an anti communist Republican. In nineteen 283 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: eighty two, he gave a speech at Yale's Afro American 284 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: Student Center. He said that the US is the freest 285 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: and most democratic country in the world. He also said, 286 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: quote Ronald Reagan has said that no longer will the 287 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: federal government house clothe and feed black people. I am 288 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: glad about that because it will force blacks to unify 289 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: and lobby for their needs. Cleaver tried to run for 290 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: a Senate seat in California as a Republican, but that 291 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: bid failed. He died in nineteen ninety eight, and by 292 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: then all of the groups Cleaver had associated with had 293 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: pretty much distanced themselves from him, the Evangelicals, the Conservatives, 294 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: and the Panthers gone. It's interesting, as a person who 295 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: was involved in the Black Panthers knowing how integral self 296 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: sufficiency and arming ourselves and working together in a cooperative 297 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: way was integral to the Black Panther Party's mission, that 298 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: he would say that anybody else needed to do anything 299 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: to get black people to unify and lobby for their needs, 300 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: like obviously you know they don't because you did it. 301 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: I think that makes it clear how delusional he actually was. 302 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: He was saying things that were literally the opposite of 303 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: the truth, and he knew that truth had a capital 304 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: T because he had actually been involved in that truth. 305 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: So the delusion is strong in the turn for him. 306 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if you like got paid in any way, 307 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 2: because I know that's a more common thing. Like the 308 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 2: lady who was the woman behind roe V Wade said that, like, 309 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: you know, pro life Christians paid her to say that 310 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 2: she regretted getting an abortion and being the face of it, 311 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,719 Speaker 2: and she just needed money, you know. So it's like 312 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: you come at a prison, you know, the panther's not 313 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 2: really rocking with you no more. Isn't just a financial thing? 314 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: I think it very well could be. 315 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: Is it a drug thing? You know that senator Fetterman 316 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 2: I think his name is, who had a stroke and 317 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 2: became conservative after being super liberal. Yeah, I should have laughed, 318 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 2: But it's funny to me because this man had had 319 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 2: a stroke, meaning there was no action going to your brain. 320 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 2: You survived, and now you're a conservative. 321 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: I mean, wilder things have happened. I mean that's pretty wild. 322 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:58,959 Speaker 1: You could go up from there. But you know how 323 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: they talk about the people who learned completely new languages 324 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: after they go into a cod or a stroke or something. 325 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: Like that your brain was a compromised and now you 326 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: think like this. 327 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think it's a mixture of all the things. 328 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: His ex wife, Kathleen Cleaver, said that after he came 329 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: back to the US and he wasn't the same. So 330 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: I also wonder what happened while he was in exile. 331 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there he talked a little bit 332 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: about being in Algeria and his book sold on fire. 333 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 1: But I'm sure there are stories that we don't know, 334 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: and maybe there are ways that causes led to consequences 335 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: that maybe he doesn't even understand how one thing led 336 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: to the other either or didn't. But it's clear that 337 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: something went wrong. 338 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 339 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: But also you know, he had been his reasoning was 340 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: illogical and problematic from the very beginning, and just all 341 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: of the sexual vibe lens that he committed, the ways 342 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: that he spoke about women, he went all right already 343 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, I mean this is I mean, his story 344 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: is pretty dark to me, you know, And I think 345 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: that all of those things compiled, they all compounded when 346 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: you add the Christianity element of it, the evangelical element 347 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: of it, and also going this far in these lames. 348 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: So what if he was paid only to be completely 349 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: rejected and left alone by all of these people that 350 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,719 Speaker 1: were supposed to be the ones who were I don't know, 351 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: giving him access to whatever he was aiming for. I 352 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: can't say what that thing was. But yeah, for both 353 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: Skylar and for Cleaver, they both had these turns from 354 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: being really upstate people in the community. Like a lot 355 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: of people admired the way that they thought. They both 356 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: shared things through writing. Two people who were cast to 357 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: the side. You know, they weren't at the end of 358 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: their lives. It didn't seem like they had as much stature, 359 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: Their reputations weren't as good as they were in the 360 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: beginning of their lives. But it seemed like with Skyler 361 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: there were fewer like external conditions of like environmental risk 362 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: factors that were imposed upon Skyler. There were fewer of 363 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: those for Skylar, it seemed like than there were for 364 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: Eldridge Cleaver. But for both of them, yeah, it seems 365 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: like things definitely went downhill. But there are so many 366 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: of their written words left over about their lives that 367 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: makes it easier to get a glimpse into how they thought. 368 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: But as we've talked about before on this show, when 369 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: people write their own things, they're often unreliable narrators. We 370 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: can't fully trust and believe that everything that they're saying 371 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: is truth. But at least in the case, they both 372 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: wrote autobiographies memoirs, so we know things that actually happened 373 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: as they reported them, and we also get to see 374 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: a little bit of their internalized thoughts about why they 375 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 1: chose to be conservative. I mean, Skyler wrote a whole 376 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: book on being black and Conservative, so he clearly that 377 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: was in nineteen sixty six, so he had plenty of 378 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: time to think about its views of being black and conservative. 379 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: You know, at that point he had already started shifting 380 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: very heavily in that direction for many decades at that point. 381 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: But it's still I think helpful for us as things 382 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: are still divided, very much so divided today, to look 383 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: at examples of people and like how they were radicalized, 384 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: and just think of all of the examples today of 385 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: people and how they get their misinformation and disinformation off 386 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: of the Internet, and how propaganda of the day influences 387 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: us to think in certain ways, and how sometimes we 388 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: don't have the people around us, or we don't have 389 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: the capability or capacity to be able to process those 390 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: things in ways which we can kind of come back 391 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: down to the ground in reality. I think there are 392 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: good examples of that because they're intelligent men, but these 393 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: things like the communist propaganda that were happening during the 394 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: Red Scare clearly affected them. And not only is it 395 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: that we still have their writing to see their views, 396 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: it's like they were sharing that with so many people. 397 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: They wanted people to know about their conservatism. 398 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's when you have a platform, like Clever 399 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: did and like Scholar did. They both had big platforms, 400 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: particularly when Cleaver was in the Black Panther Party in 401 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: those years when he first got out of prison. In 402 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 1: his work soul on Ice came out, a lot of 403 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: people were reading it and a lot of people were 404 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: looking to him as an early leader in the Black 405 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: Panther Party, So he had clout. Both of these men 406 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: had cloud so that you know, we can say things 407 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: in our basements all day long, Yeah, but when you 408 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: got thousands or if not millions of people listening to 409 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: what you say and admiring you and respecting your words, 410 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: that can that really does have influence for sure. 411 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,959 Speaker 2: And now it is time for role credits. The segment 412 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 2: where we give credit to a person, place, or thing 413 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 2: that we've encountered during the week eves. Who are what 414 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 2: would you like to give credit to? 415 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: I would like to give credit to animals in like 416 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: urban spaces. So I just I saw deer that were 417 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: hanging out around a conference center that I was at recently. 418 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,239 Speaker 1: You know, segull just chilling, you know, I have. There 419 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: are community cats. There's a community cat that I take 420 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: care of at home. There are birds, you know that 421 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: I was talking to someone yesterday about the birds always 422 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: moving into a nest and the fact that they didn't 423 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: come back this year for both of us that always 424 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: move into a nest that stays like in near my home. 425 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,239 Speaker 1: But you know, animals are everywhere, and it's nice to 426 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: just come back to things sometimes and like where you're 427 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: walking around and running into people and doing all these 428 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: mundane worldly things that you know are really important to 429 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: you as a human, and then just to stop for 430 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: a second and think about this is nature right here 431 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 1: in my face. It can be pretty grounding sometimes. So 432 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: that's what I like to give credit to today. 433 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that. I'd like to give credit to 434 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 2: think in the spirit of this episode, accepting people where 435 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 2: are they at right now? You ain't got to worry 436 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 2: about what they was doing in nineteen sixty six what 437 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 2: you're doing for me lately. And I think you just 438 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 2: get a lot of peace when you just accept people like, Okay, 439 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 2: this is how you are. It's just how you are, 440 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: and I can respond to it accordingly. And I think 441 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 2: that's what people did with these meta So I want 442 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 2: to give credit to that ethic. Yeah, and we'll see 443 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 2: y'all next week. 444 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: By y'all. On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and 445 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves Jeffco 446 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. 447 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also 448 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: send us an email at hello at on Theme dot show. 449 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: Head to on Themet Show to check out the show 450 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 451 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 452 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: favorite shows.