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Speaker 3: Hey, Orge, did you share a room with siblings when

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Speaker 3: you were a kid?

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Speaker 2: I did.

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Speaker 3: I shared a room with my brother oooh. And was

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Speaker 3: that like cozy and fun for the two of you?

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Speaker 3: Or did you get on each other's nerves?

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Speaker 2: It was pretty fun. We get along pretty good. How

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Speaker 2: about you.

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Speaker 3: I shared a room with two brothers and there was

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Speaker 3: not a whole lot of coziness there. We got on

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Speaker 3: each other's nerves a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yikes. Sounds intense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember after one argument my mom telling us

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Speaker 3: if we couldn't get along, we'd have to live outside. Intense.

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Speaker 2: WHOA, sounds intense? But is that why you like camping

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Speaker 2: so much? Because you did end up outside in the tent.

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Speaker 2: That's that where your love of the stars came from.

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Speaker 2: This is your origin story. It's all because of your brother,

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Speaker 2: your nemesis or nemesi.

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Speaker 3: Is how I extracted something beautiful from a difficult story.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like a hallmark move. We know how you overcame

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Speaker 2: sibling Riberry.

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Speaker 3: Depends on whether it ends well or not.

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Speaker 2: I guess it only ends when one of you dies.

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Speaker 2: Hi am Jorhemrick cartoonis and the author of Oliver's Great

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Speaker 2: Big Universe.

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Speaker 6: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at

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Speaker 3: u C Irvine, and I've been totally eclipsed by my

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Speaker 3: younger brother.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, is he a more shiny star or something.

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Speaker 3: He's taller than me. He's a professor at a fancier

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Speaker 3: university than I am. What else is there?

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Speaker 2: But does he have a podcast?

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Speaker 3: There you go. I don't know if he wants a podcast,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, that's a good point. I'm going to bring

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Speaker 3: that up at Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 2: Thanks You know, it's super hard to do a podcast,

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Speaker 2: or at least to start one. There's a high bar

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Speaker 2: for putting things on the internet. They don't just let

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Speaker 2: anyone post things on the internet, you know.

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Speaker 3: I guess we'll find out if he listens to the podcast,

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Speaker 3: if he responds to this.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy one. In case you're listening, Hello, Daniel's brother.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like we should have you on a podcast

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Speaker 2: and break it down Oprah style.

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Speaker 3: He's been on the podcast once before when we talked

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Speaker 3: about artificial intelligence, because he's a machine learning professor.

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Speaker 2: Oh I thought you were going to say he's a

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Speaker 2: machine that too. But anyways, welcome to our podcast Daniel

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Speaker 2: and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of our Heart Radio.

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Speaker 3: In which we try not to eclipse your knowledge of

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Speaker 3: the universe. We try to shine a light on it.

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Speaker 3: We think everybody should be cozy with the physics of

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Speaker 3: the universe, snuggling up to a deep understanding of what's

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Speaker 3: going on out there, how it all works, how it started,

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Speaker 3: and what story it tells us about where we live

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Speaker 3: and where we will live in the future.

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Speaker 2: That's right. We tried to be your big brother in

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Speaker 2: terms of telling you how the universe works and what

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Speaker 2: we've learned from our mistakes and our discoveries so that

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Speaker 2: you can navigate this fantastic universe with a little bit

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Speaker 2: more ease and a little bit more confidence.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure big brother has the connotations we're looking for.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a little bit overwhelminging, isn't it?

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Speaker 2: M not necessarily? Isn't there like a big Brother program

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Speaker 2: where you mentor kids. That's a positive thing too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go. We're not telling you what to

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Speaker 3: think of what not to think. We're just teaching you

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Speaker 3: about the universe.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And there is a lot to know about

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Speaker 2: the universe and to discover and to find out because

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Speaker 2: it is pretty interesting, pretty complex, pretty vast, and also

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Speaker 2: microscopic in the way that it reveals its secrets.

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Speaker 3: And one surefire way to figure out how the universe

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Speaker 3: works is to ask basic questions about it. To look

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Speaker 3: up at the night sky and ask why does this

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Speaker 3: do this, and why does this not that. How can

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Speaker 3: we see this happening and not some other thing happening.

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Speaker 3: What are the rules of the universe that allow us

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Speaker 3: to have huge planets like Jupiter but not other situations

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Speaker 3: like planets shaped like a pretzel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because I guess you can look around and wonder like,

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Speaker 2: are we a result of the rules of the universe

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Speaker 2: or are we like an exception to the rules of

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Speaker 2: the universe.

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Speaker 3: Well, we definitely a results of the rules of the universe,

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Speaker 3: if you believe the universe has rules and it follows them.

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Speaker 3: But there might be weird outcomes and there might be

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Speaker 3: standard outcomes like it. It could be that our solar system

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Speaker 3: is very unusual as an example of things in the galaxy,

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Speaker 3: or it could be that we're totally vanilla.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because this humans here in planet Earth. We only

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Speaker 2: really have one view of one planet that we can

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Speaker 2: study up close so far, and so it makes you

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Speaker 2: wonder if other planets are the same, or if humans

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Speaker 2: could have lived in other planets, could things have been

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Speaker 2: different in our history?

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Speaker 3: That's true, and there are other planets nearby that we

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Speaker 3: can study, though not quite as up close, to try

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Speaker 3: to get more insight into what a planet can be like,

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Speaker 3: where the various possibility how planets can turn.

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Speaker 2: Out, and do they get along as siblings? Or have

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Speaker 2: any siblings been kicked out of the Solar System and

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Speaker 2: are living in intents by the astory build That's right.

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Speaker 3: We talked recently about those really fun theories that there

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Speaker 3: was once an ice giant in the outer Solar System

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Speaker 3: that was ejected during a period of chaos.

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Speaker 2: WHOA, so you think it just couldn't get along with

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Speaker 2: the other planets.

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Speaker 3: I'm wondering who the parent is in this analogy, Like,

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Speaker 3: is it really the Sun's fault that it didn't work out?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And how responsible is it to kick your children outside

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Speaker 2: and live outside? Yeah? Yeah, somebody should call it you

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Speaker 2: universal child services.

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Speaker 3: But one thing we do notice about our Solar system

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Speaker 3: is that the planets all seem to have their own orbits.

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Speaker 3: Jupiter's got an orbit, or Earth has an orbit, Mars

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Speaker 3: has an orbit. It's sort of like everybody's got their

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Speaker 3: own room.

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Speaker 2: They all have their own lane.

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Speaker 3: You mean, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Like there's no other Earth on the other side of

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Speaker 2: our orbit, right, or didn't scientists think for a while

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Speaker 2: or maybe there was?

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Speaker 3: It sounds like a pretty cool science fiction story, right,

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Speaker 3: second Earth on the other side of the Sun?

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Speaker 2: Planet X. Wasn't it called planet X?

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Speaker 3: I think planet X is an idea for a tenth

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Speaker 3: or now ninth planet that might be out there tugging

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Speaker 3: on distant planets, but wouldn't necessarily share an orbit with ours.

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Speaker 2: But it's technically is it possible that there's like another

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Speaker 2: Earth on the other side of the Sun. Wech just

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Speaker 2: have never seen it because it's on the other side

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Speaker 2: of the Sun.

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Speaker 3: We wouldn't be able to see it directly from Earth.

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Speaker 3: But of course we've had probes go all over the

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Speaker 3: Solar System. We would have seen it, and we would

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Speaker 3: have noticed its gravitational effects on Mars and Venus and

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Speaker 3: other stuff in the Solar System.

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Speaker 2: So I guess each planet does have its own orbit

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Speaker 2: its ow lane.

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Speaker 3: In our Solar system, each planet mostly does have its

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Speaker 3: own lane. But of course the question is why is

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Speaker 3: that and is that typical?

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Speaker 2: So today on the podcast, we'll be tackling the question

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Speaker 2: why don't planet share an orbit?

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Speaker 3: Is it because they couldn't get along?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? And are we the little the younger sibling or

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Speaker 2: are we the the more accomplished sibling.

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Speaker 3: I think the younger sibling is often motivated to eclipse

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Speaker 3: the older siblings.

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Speaker 2: Boy, it sounds like a lot to attack there in

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Speaker 2: your family.

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Speaker 3: I'm nothing but proud of my younger brother.

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Speaker 2: Let's stick to physics maybe, but yeah, it's an interesting question.

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Speaker 2: I guess. The implied fact is that no planets in

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Speaker 2: our Solar system share an orbit, meaning they're not going

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Speaker 2: around the Sun at the same distance.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, although you could quibble about that in the case

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Speaker 3: of Jupiter. There is some stuff in Jupiter's orbit, not

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Speaker 3: another planet, but it does share its orbit with some

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Speaker 3: other chunks.

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Speaker 2: M And I guess the other implied fact is that

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Speaker 2: all the orbits don't overlap. I guess right, because most

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Speaker 2: of the orbits are pretty much circular, right, They're not

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Speaker 2: like ellipses that kind of overlap with each other.

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Speaker 3: You mean like if they intersect, Yeah, like.

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Speaker 2: They intersect, or if you look at them from the top,

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Speaker 2: they're maybe like the two ellipsoids are overlapped.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think two ellipsoids that overlap and have different

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Speaker 3: periods would eventually collide. So I don't think you could

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Speaker 3: have that situation for very long.

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Speaker 2: But it's true that most of the orbits are pretty

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Speaker 2: much circular, right.

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Speaker 3: They're all a little bit eccentric. None of them are

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Speaker 3: exactly circular, kind.

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Speaker 2: Of like you and your brothers. They're all a little

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Speaker 2: eccentric as well. I think a little is kind of

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Speaker 2: generous there. We're all quite eccentric, actually, professors or something.

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Speaker 3: Exactly how does that happen? But in the case of

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Speaker 3: the Solar system, none of the orbits are perfectly circular.

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Speaker 3: They're all at least a little bit eccentric. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: none of them are overlapping. They basically all have their

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Speaker 3: own lanes.

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Speaker 2: So the question is why don't two planets have the

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Speaker 2: same orbit? So, as usually, we were wondering how many

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Speaker 2: people out there had thought about this question.

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Speaker 3: Thanks very much to our group of volunteers. We'd love

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Speaker 3: if you joined them. Right to me two questions at

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Speaker 3: Daniel and Jorge dot com and I'll send the questions

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Speaker 3: on over.

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Speaker 2: So think about it for a second. Why do you

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Speaker 2: think no two planets share an orbit. Here's what people

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Speaker 2: had to say.

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Speaker 8: I think planets don't share orbits because the center of

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Speaker 8: gravity would have to be absolutely stationary like and shake

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Speaker 8: itself out of sync.

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Speaker 2: But I think they actually do. It's just very unlikely

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Speaker 2: because it'd be a major coincidence.

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Speaker 9: So I'm under the impression that planet's by definition or

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Speaker 9: celestial objects orbiting stars that have cleared their orbital path

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Speaker 9: of competing debris like asteroids, and that as a planet forms,

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Speaker 9: it's gravity gets stronger and it sucks up other objects

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Speaker 9: in that orbital path. And that's one of the reasons

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Speaker 9: that objects like series are not considered true planets, because

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Speaker 9: they share their orbit with a number of other large

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Speaker 9: asteroids and other competing debris.

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Speaker 7: Planets don't share orbits because of the way closters get together.

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Speaker 7: If there is a clumble matter very close to another

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Speaker 7: glombal matter, they will make a planet. And it is

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Speaker 7: that are foot up are they will make another planet?

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Speaker 2: All right? Some interesting answers. Some people think it's maybe

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Speaker 2: unlikely because they would be a big coincidence.

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Speaker 3: Or that gravity just doesn't work that way, that it

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Speaker 3: can't pull things together into two planets. Oom.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, But I guess, you know, thinking about it, like

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Speaker 2: the asteroid built has a whole bunch of mini planets

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Speaker 2: and they're all kind of in the same orbit.

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Speaker 3: Mm hmm, yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I guess we'll dig into that. So first of all, Daniel,

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Speaker 2: let's maybe start with the basics. What is a planet

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Speaker 2: or what do you define as a planet?

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Speaker 3: So a planet famously has a fairly legalistic definition of

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Speaker 3: what it is. And remember this is just astronomers giving

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Speaker 3: names to things, like there's stuff out there in the universe.

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Speaker 3: The rocks don't care whether you call them a rock

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Speaker 3: or an asteroid, or a planet or a planet. It

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Speaker 3: is well, they're still out there and doing the physics.

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Speaker 3: This is just humans applying like our framework of categorization

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Speaker 3: to the stuff, and different humans on a different planet

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Speaker 3: or aliens whatever it might come up with a totally

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Speaker 3: different categorization. It's mostly historical. It doesn't really reflect deep

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Speaker 3: underlying physics. But it's language and we should all agree

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Speaker 3: what the meanings of words are. And so In the

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Speaker 3: case of a planet, there are three requirements. One that

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Speaker 3: it's mostly spherical. This is basically, isn't big enough because

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Speaker 3: any thing that's big enough is going to be mostly

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Speaker 3: a spear due to gravity. Requirement Number two is that

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Speaker 3: it orbits the Sun and not some other object like

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Speaker 3: a planet, otherwise the Moon would be a candidate for

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Speaker 3: a planet. And then the last one is that it's

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Speaker 3: cleared its path of planetismals and other big objects. Basically

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Speaker 3: that of all the stuff in its lane, it's gathered

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Speaker 3: up all the bits into one object.

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Speaker 2: WHOA It sounds like by definition, then a planet cannot

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Speaker 2: share an orbit because a planet, in your definition, is

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Speaker 2: something that is by itself in an orbit exactly.

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Speaker 3: So technically speaking, like the legal answer is no, because

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Speaker 3: then it wouldn't be a planet. But really we're asking, like,

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Speaker 3: could you have two jupiters on opposite sides of the

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Speaker 3: Sun orbiting in the same orbit. That would be really fascinating.

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Speaker 3: Now astronomers from this committee would say, well, technically those

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Speaker 3: aren't planets, and we say like, well, we don't really care.

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Speaker 3: It's fascinating that they're doing this thing, whether or not

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Speaker 3: you call them planets.

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Speaker 2: I mean if there was another Earth orbiting in our orbit,

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Speaker 2: just on the other side of the Sun, we wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be like, that's not a planet. We would still call

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Speaker 2: it a planet, and you'd just be forced to change

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Speaker 2: the definition of a planet.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Maybe, or we'd have t shirts saying like Earth

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Speaker 3: isn't a planet, or Earth is a planet, or I'm

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Speaker 3: on Team Earth or whatever. It'd be a whole ridiculous

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Speaker 3: battle really just over names. You know, where do you

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Speaker 3: draw the dotted line?

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Speaker 2: But I guess maybe the question is like, why is

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Speaker 2: that part of the definition? Why is it important for

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Speaker 2: astronomers it a planet quote unquote has its own orbit.

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Speaker 3: It's a good question, and I don't think the answer

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Speaker 3: is just scientific. I think it's historical. You know, we

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Speaker 3: try to sometimes reverse engineer these definitions to reflect the

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Speaker 3: decisions we've been making historically. We've been calling these things planets,

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Speaker 3: and we sort of want to have a definition that

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Speaker 3: aligns with the decisions we've already made, even if they

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Speaker 3: aren't the decisions we would have made if we knew

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Speaker 3: better at the time. You know, early on when we

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Speaker 3: started talking about planets, we didn't understand everything that was

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Speaker 3: out there in the Solar System, all the smaller rocks

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Speaker 3: that were invisible to us. We didn't realize that there

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Speaker 3: was like a full spectrum from tiny rocks to planetisimals,

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Speaker 3: to dwarf planets to real planets.

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Speaker 2: But I guess maybe the idea that this is part

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Speaker 2: of the definition maybe tells me that there are things

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Speaker 2: out there that are spherical that orbit the Sun but

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Speaker 2: that don't have cleared its path of planetesimals, that are

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Speaker 2: maybe as big as some of the things we do

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Speaker 2: call planets. Is that true?

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Speaker 3: Well, basically that's Pluto, right. Pluto got rejected as a

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Speaker 3: planet because it was judged to have not sufficiently cleared

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Speaker 3: the neighborhood around its orbit of other stuff. Basically, if

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Speaker 3: you look in Pluto's orbit, you find other pretty big

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Speaker 3: rocks that are roughly the size of Pluto. Pluto is

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Speaker 3: just one of an example of lots of we call

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Speaker 3: them dwarf planets that far out in the Solar System.

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Speaker 3: They have not gathered together sufficiently to say there's one

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Speaker 3: really dominant object and nothing else out there.

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Speaker 2: Wait wait, wait, wait wait, this was the rule that

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Speaker 2: they kicked Pluto out because of you mean, it's not

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Speaker 2: because of its size. I always thought it was because

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Speaker 2: of its size.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of indirectly because of its size. I mean,

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Speaker 3: if everything else out there in Pluto's orbit was just

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Speaker 3: dust and tiny greens, then they would have said, Okay,

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Speaker 3: it's a planet. But because there are chunks of rock

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Speaker 3: out there that are sort of too big to ignore,

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Speaker 3: then you say Pluto hasn't really cleared its orbit. I mean, really,

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Speaker 3: technically speaking, nothing has cleared its orbit, because you know,

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Speaker 3: there's dust in all sorts of other rocks in Earth's

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Speaker 3: orbit certainly, right, It's not like it's perfectly empty space

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Speaker 3: in Earth's orbit, So you can ask, like, well, what

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Speaker 3: does it mean to clear its orbit? Even that definition

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Speaker 3: gets a little bit fuzzy, but that's the reason why

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Speaker 3: Pluto was demoted.

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Speaker 2: WHOA, I'm a little bit outraged. I feel like this

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Speaker 2: is such a weird technicality to have kick Pluto for.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is the problem with creating categories, right, You're

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Speaker 3: always going to find something on the edge of the category,

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Speaker 3: and then you're going to have to try to crisply

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Speaker 3: define the category, and then you discover the category is

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Speaker 3: just artificial. You're just really drawing dotted lines between a

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Speaker 3: smooth spectrum of stuff. Like I remember when we talked

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Speaker 3: about space centaurs, the things that are so kind of

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Speaker 3: comets and kind of asteroids, And what you discover is

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Speaker 3: really the two things are part of a larger community.

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Speaker 3: And you've drawn a dotted line between commets and asteroids,

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Speaker 3: and it doesn't really make sense to distinguish between them.

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Speaker 3: This is just the problem of humans creating categories that

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Speaker 3: don't really work.

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Speaker 2: But there was sort of like a voter, there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of discussion about Pluto. So what is it

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Speaker 2: about not having anything in its path that is so

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Speaker 2: important to scientists to kick you know, change change science books,

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Speaker 2: basically for everybody. You know, why is that important whether

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Speaker 2: or not it has little chunks of rocks in its

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Speaker 2: path or not.

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Speaker 3: I think it's just sociological, Like we look at Earth

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Speaker 3: and Jupiter and Mars and Venus and we say this

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Speaker 3: is one kind of thing, and Pluto is sort of

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Speaker 3: a different kind of thing because it's different in this way.

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Speaker 3: Is just one example of many big chunks of rock

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Speaker 3: out there in the Pluto orbit. So I think there

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Speaker 3: is a distinction to be made between these two different

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Speaker 3: categories of objects. Then again, it's sort of fuzzy.

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Speaker 2: Meaning like the fact that it has chunks in its

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Speaker 2: path is maybe the only thing that sits it apart

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Speaker 2: from the like, none of the other things that we

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Speaker 2: call planets have things in its path, and so they're

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Speaker 2: using this as an excuse to kick Pluto out exactly.

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Speaker 3: And when we talk about the history of the formation

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Speaker 3: of the Solar System, you see that it's sort of

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Speaker 3: like one step, you know, the Solar System. You have

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Speaker 3: the planetary disk, and it gathers into rocks and those

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Speaker 3: become planetesimals, and then in some cases they form big planets.

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Speaker 3: In other cases they just stay a big spread of

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Speaker 3: planet isimals, they don't really form planets. So in that sense,

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Speaker 3: planets really are sort of like the next step in

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Speaker 3: the formation of an object in the Solar System, and

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Speaker 3: you've got to respect that or reflect it, or at least,

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Speaker 3: you know, describe it.

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Speaker 7: You know.

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Speaker 2: I guess it would make sense if there were a

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Speaker 2: lot of Pluto like planets that look like Pluto or

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Speaker 2: the size of Pluto, but didn't clear its path, and

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Speaker 2: then maybe I could see like, Okay, if you let

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Speaker 2: Pluto in, you have to let all these other things in.

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Speaker 2: But is that the case, or is Pluto just like

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Speaker 2: a lone border case.

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Speaker 3: Well, Pluto is maybe the thing closest to the edge,

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Speaker 3: But there are a lot of things out there, you know.

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Speaker 3: There aren't a lot of these dwarf planets that you

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Speaker 3: might call planets. You know, Series, for example, is a

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Speaker 3: dwarf planet, but it's part of the asteroid belt, and

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Speaker 3: there's lots of other stuff in the asteroid belt. So

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Speaker 3: you can't say that Series really is a planet because

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Speaker 3: it didn't gather together all the other bits. So I

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Speaker 3: think that is true that once you open the door

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Speaker 3: to Pluto, you have to let in lots of other folks.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why that's the problem. Like, let's have

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Speaker 3: a solar system with hundreds of planets. That sounds awesome

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Speaker 3: to be big party.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, more siblings to fight with.

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Speaker 3: But there is something of a distinction here between objects

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Speaker 3: that are basically alone in their orbit and objects that

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Speaker 3: are not. And I do think it's really interesting to wonder, like,

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Speaker 3: could you have two planet like objects orbiting the Sun

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Speaker 3: in the same orbit. Why don't we see that in

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Speaker 3: our solar system? Is that something you might see in

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Speaker 3: other solar systems, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: I see you want to sort of pivot to the

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Speaker 2: question of, like, what would happen if two planets did

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Speaker 2: share an orbit or two large objects like the Earth

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Speaker 2: share it an orbit?

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Speaker 3: Could that situation be stable? Why don't we see it?

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Speaker 3: Could that form at all? I think those are really

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Speaker 3: interesting sort of physics questions instead of like category legalistic questions.

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Speaker 2: That sounds like something siblings would argue about for no

443
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,400
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444
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445
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493
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 3: of cheese into your mouth or enjoy a rich spoonful

494
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 3: of Greek yogurt, you're probably not thinking about the environmental

495
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 3: impact of each and every bite. But the people in

496
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,639
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497
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:57,679
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498
00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,800
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499
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500
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,840
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501
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,000
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502
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,680
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503
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 3: How is US Dairy tackling greenhouse gases. Many farms use

504
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,400
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505
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506
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508
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509
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510
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511
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512
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: All right, we're asking the question here today why don't

513
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 2: planets share an orbit? And we just went through a

514
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 2: defined print to find out that astronomers call a planet

515
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 2: something that doesn't share an orbit, So technically planets cannot

516
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 2: share an orbit. But now we're going to pivot a

517
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 2: little bit and ask the question, well, what would happen

518
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: if something like the Earth share it an orbit with

519
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 2: another big thing like the Earth? Well, first of all,

520
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: it would get kicked out of the planet category, right.

521
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. If you built an earth sized death

522
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 3: star and put it in orbit on the other side

523
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 3: of the Sun, then Earth would no longer be a planet.

524
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,919
Speaker 2: Would you say, maybe the Moon is still something that

525
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 2: we haven't cleared.

526
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 3: Well, but the Moon is orbiting the Earth, right, so

527
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 3: mm hmmm, Oh, I see what you mean. Does the

528
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 3: Moon disqualify the Earth because we haven't absorbed it into

529
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 3: the Earth. Yeah, these are complicated legal questions.

530
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: That sounds like we need a lawyer. Is the brother

531
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: a lawyer, also an accomplished lawyer.

532
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 3: Probably he's arguing in front of the Astronomy Supreme Court

533
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 3: right now.

534
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, now he just broken a machine.

535
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 3: To do it for him.

536
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 2: But yeah, so, I guess we're asking more of a

537
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: physics question, not a technical definition question, like could you

538
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 2: have two giant Earth or to Jupiter is kind of

539
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 2: circling each other, maybe opposite sides of the Sun or

540
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 2: maybe not. I don't know. That's kind of the question now, right, Yeah, I.

541
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 3: Think that's the interesting physics question, you know, is that possible?

542
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 3: Is there some law physics that prevents that from happening,

543
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 3: either to stop it from forming or to break it

544
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 3: up if it did somehow randomly land that way.

545
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 2: Because I guess the question is have we seen that.

546
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 2: We haven't seen that in our Solar system, or have

547
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: we maybe like Pluto has it and anti Pluto out there.

548
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 3: So we don't have examples of Earth sized objects with

549
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 3: other Earth sized objects in their orbits, but we do

550
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 3: have in our solar system some sort of edge cases.

551
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,719
Speaker 3: Like Jupiter has a whole collection of asteroids that are

552
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 3: not in the asteroid belt per se, the one you

553
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 3: think about between Mars and Jupiter, but are actually in

554
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 3: its orbit. There's two different groups of asteroids that are

555
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 3: orbiting with Jupiter.

556
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 2: Wait wait, wait, Like on the opposite side of Jupiter

557
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: from the Sun there's a whole bunch of debris.

558
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 3: So not on the opposite side of Jupiter thirty degrees

559
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 3: trailing and thirty degrees ahead of it, because there are

560
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 3: several stable points around Jupiter where you can balance the

561
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 3: gravity of Jupiter and the gravity of the Sun, so

562
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 3: they cancel out. These are called the lagrange points. And

563
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 3: in the fourth and fifth lagrange points in front of

564
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 3: Jupiter and behind Jupiter in its orbit, there's a whole

565
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 3: collection of asteroids that are sort of hanging out there. WHOA, well,

566
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 3: does that mean Jupiter is not a planet? I know

567
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 3: exactly right, Like, has Jupiter really cleared its orbit? Well,

568
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 3: it's so much bigger than these rocks that I guess

569
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 3: you can say so. But like, if I were Pluto's lawyers,

570
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 3: I would have raised that.

571
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: Example, right right. Why didn't anybody raise that example? Was

572
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 2: nobody advocating for Pluto or four science books in general

573
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: and not confusing the entire human population.

574
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 3: I'm not going to make the mistake of trying to

575
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 3: defend any of these definitions because to me, they're all

576
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 3: just arbitrary, and they all break down under some scenario.

577
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 3: And this is an example, you know, and Earth even

578
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 3: has one of these. Earth has an object like this

579
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 3: that's in its orbit. That orbit's in one of its

580
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 3: lagrange points. It's a pretty big rock. Wait, what really?

581
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 3: How big is it? It's not that big. It's like

582
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 3: five kilometers in diameter. We've only known about it since

583
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 3: like nineteen eighty six when it was first spotted. It's

584
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 3: got this terrible name I won't even try to pronounce,

585
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 3: but it's spelled c r ui th and e. Maybe

586
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 3: you can pronounce it, maybe, yeah, but not on air

587
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 3: apparently anyway. It's the sort of feature of gravity. You know,

588
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 3: there are places you can be where you can be

589
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 3: in a stable orbit, like the James Web Space Telescope

590
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 3: is in one of these lagrange points relative to the

591
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 3: Earth and the Sun.

592
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: Well, I think what you mean by stable orbit points

593
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 2: meaning that it has the same location relative to the

594
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: Earth and it goes around the Sun at the same rate,

595
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 2: Like it takes the same amount of time to go

596
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: around the Sun. That's what you mean by like being

597
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: in a stable position.

598
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 3: Well, there's two different things there. One is being in

599
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 3: the same orbit, and that means following the same path,

600
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 3: taking the same amount of time to go around the Sun.

601
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 3: The second thing is whether you're stable, and stability beings

602
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 3: like if you get a little push, do you return

603
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 3: back to the path you are on or does that

604
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 3: cause like a cascade where it creates a bigger push,

605
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 3: and then a bigger push, and then a bigger push,

606
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,239
Speaker 3: and then you fall away, sort of the way like

607
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 3: a pencil balanced on its tip is unstable. The tiniest

608
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 3: little push and it will fall over. But like a

609
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: ball in the bottom of a glass is stable. You

610
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 3: can give a little push, gravity restores it back to

611
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 3: where it was. So some configurations are stable, meaning that

612
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 3: gravity will push them back to that configuration if they

613
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 3: get pushed by a little rock or hit by the

614
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 3: solar wind or whatever. And if you have two objects

615
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 3: like the Sun and the Earth, there are five points

616
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 3: they are called the Grange points that are stable. Three

617
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 3: of them are in your orbit, and two of them

618
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 3: are not right.

619
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: Meaning three of them are in the same circle that

620
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: the Earth traces around the Sun, and two of them

621
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: are like one of them a little bit further from

622
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 2: the circle on the other one closer to the Sun.

623
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 2: And if you're at those positions going at the right speed,

624
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: then you're going to trace a circle kind of along

625
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: with the Earth exactly.

626
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 3: The simplest one to understand is that there's a point

627
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 3: between the Earth and the Sun where the gravity cancels

628
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 3: up because the Sun is pulling in one way and

629
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 3: the Earth is pulling another way. And if you're just

630
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 3: the right point, it's not halfway between the Earth and

631
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 3: the Sun, because the Sun is obviously more massive and

632
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 3: has more gravity, But there is a point there where

633
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 3: the Earth and the Sun gravity balances out, and if

634
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 3: you're right there, there's effectively no gravity and you could

635
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 3: just move with the same period, though not the same

636
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 3: velocity as the Earth and stay there.

637
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 2: Meaning like you'll go around the Sun in exactly a year,

638
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 2: just like the Earth exactly. That's what it means to

639
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: kind of share an orbit.

640
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 3: In that case, you would have a different radius, so

641
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 3: you'd have the same period, but it wouldn't really be

642
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 3: the same orbit. But there are three of these points

643
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 3: that are actually in the same orbit, meaning you're following

644
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 3: the same path. One of them is on the other

645
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 3: side of the Sun from the Earth, as you said,

646
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 3: and that's very intuitive, right, and because you're like exactly

647
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 3: balancing the Earth, and so you could just be like

648
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 3: constantly one hundred and eighty degrees out of phase with

649
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 3: the Earth. And then there are two points thirty degrees

650
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: behind and thirty degrees ahead of the Earth also have

651
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 3: this special gravitational balance where the Sun and the Earth

652
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 3: effectively neutralize each other's gravity.

653
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 2: And does it depend on how big you are or

654
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 2: how heavy you are.

655
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 3: So the location of some of these points do depend

656
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 3: on the mass ratios, but the other ones are just geometric.

657
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 3: So Jupiter has them, Earth has them. All the planets

658
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 3: have these lagrange points, and that's why, for example, Jupiter

659
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 3: has this collection of asteroids behind it and ahead of

660
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 3: it because they're hanging out at one of these lagrange points.

661
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 2: Okay, so I think what we're trying to say here

662
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 2: is that each planet has an orbit, and each orbit

663
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: sort of has these spots where you could maybe put

664
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 2: in another planet and it would still be stable and

665
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: both of them will keep going around the Sun, like

666
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: it's possible.

667
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 3: It's possible. One tiny little wrinkle there is that some

668
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 3: of these lagrange points are stable, some of them are unstable.

669
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 3: There are all locations where the gravity balance is out

670
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 3: and if you're exactly at the right spot, you can

671
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: stay there forever. But some of them are unstable, meaning

672
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 3: if you deviate a tiny little bit, it's like a

673
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 3: pencil leaning over on the table. It's going to fall over,

674
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 3: and you're not going to where some of them are stable,

675
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 3: meaning that if you deviate a little bit, you'll come back.

676
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 3: So the fourth and fifth La Grange point, so one

677
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 3: ahead and behind you in the orbit, are actually stable locations.

678
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 3: So yeah, and principle, you could have another Earth that's

679
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 3: not on the other side of the Sun, but just

680
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 3: like thirty degrees behind us in our orbit, and it

681
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 3: could be there and be stable gravitationally.

682
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: But didn't you say it sort of depends on the mass,

683
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: like and you can imagine if I put a James

684
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: Web telescope, it'll be stable there, or maybe a small

685
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: asteroid or five kilometer rock. But if I put a

686
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 2: whole Earth, wouldn't it just destabilize the whole thing? Or

687
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 2: wouldn't it be totally a different point.

688
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 3: If you put another Earth there, it would be stable,

689
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 3: Like the situation is symmetric and they could both survive there.

690
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 3: There are mass limitations, like if you put a star

691
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 3: there that's much more massive than the Earth and things

692
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 3: is like a limit of like twenty five times the

693
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 3: mass of the Earth, then you break some of the assumptions.

694
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 3: It doesn't work anymore. But you could put a pretty

695
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 3: massive planet there and it would be stable.

696
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 2: Interesting. But then now the question is, why isn't there

697
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: something there? Because I'm sure at the beginning of the

698
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: Solar System they're asteroids everywhere, there were rocks everywhere. Why

699
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: didn't those two points start to gather things? And why

700
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: don't we have a little twin Earth.

701
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 3: The answer to that is that we don't really know.

702
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: I mean, we think that in the formation of a

703
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 3: Solar system, it's possible for it to happen. Remember the

704
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: story we told earlier. We start from a big cloud

705
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 3: of gas and dust and leftover bits from other Solar

706
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 3: systems that have died, and that collapses most of it

707
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 3: into the star, but like one percent of it stays

708
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 3: in this protoplanetary disc, a bunch of heavy metals and

709
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 3: gas and dust and ice that is moving too fast

710
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 3: to fall into the stars. The star gobbles up mostly

711
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: gas and leaves behind this protoplanetary disc, and then gravity

712
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 3: does this thing. It starts from little seeding locations, there

713
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 3: are little dots of heavy metal or little gravitational spots

714
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: that have over densities. Starts to cluster together other stuff

715
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: and you get the string of rocks. So now instead

716
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 3: of having like a disc, you have a bunch of rings,

717
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 3: rings of these rocks of various sizes, which then gather

718
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 3: together and form stuff. And so one option is that

719
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 3: you know, it forms into a planet. There's like one

720
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 3: dominant thing that pulls out all together into a planet.

721
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 3: Another option is that it just sort of stays a

722
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 3: ring of rocks because of tidal forces from neighboring planets

723
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: that prevent it from gathering together. But there's nothing that

724
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 3: says in physics that you couldn't have two objects coalescing.

725
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 3: You know that two things couldn't have pulled together sort

726
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 3: of in each other's lagrange points and ended up being

727
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 3: what looks like two planets, although you know the astronomers

728
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 3: would have said neither of them are planets.

729
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like maybe we skip a step there.

730
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: So you're saying, like the early Solar System was a

731
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: flat disc, and then the stuff that was orbiting the

732
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: Sun or the new Sun kind of arranged itself into rings,

733
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 2: sort of like maybe Saturn's rings, So you can mentione

734
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: the Sun in the middle a bunch of rings, just

735
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 2: like Saturn has rings of rocks, and then those rings

736
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: eventually collapse into planets. Now, what's the process for that,

737
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: Like what causes a ring of rock to suddenly collapse

738
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 2: into a giant ball on one specific spot.

739
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 3: Well, that's gravity. Also, you know, you have one spot

740
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 3: along the ring that's denser than another, and so it's

741
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 3: going to pull on stuff nearby, stuff that's ahead of it,

742
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 3: it's going to pull closer. The stuff that's behind it,

743
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 3: it's going to pull closer. And then as it gathers

744
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 3: more stuff, it's going to have more gravity. It's gonna

745
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 3: be able to reach further along that ring, and it

746
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 3: essentially grab that stuff together.

747
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 2: But I can see that for gathering the things around it.

748
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: But what about the things that we're on, like on

749
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 2: the opposite side of the ring.

750
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:29,959
Speaker 3: I think the answer is that we aren't one hundred

751
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 3: percent sure how that happens. We don't know. For example,

752
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 3: if you can really form stuff on the other side

753
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 3: of the Solar System that stays there, like for example,

754
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 3: Jupiter's asteroids, did those form? There is an example of

755
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 3: exactly what you're talking about, stuff forming along that same

756
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 3: ring and not getting absorbed into the planet, basically resisting

757
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 3: because it's in a lagrange point and it's gravity is

758
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 3: totally balanced, or is that stuff that came later. Did

759
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 3: Jupiter actually clear its own path use up all the

760
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 3: stuff in the ring, and then and later on stuff

761
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 3: fell into Jupiter's legrange points. We just don't know the

762
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 3: answer to that. If stuff really can form stably at

763
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 3: the same time as a planet, that's what you're asking, right.

764
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 2: Well, I think I'm asking like it. Once we had

765
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: a ring of rocks, sort of like Saturn has rings.

766
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 2: Is it the case that each ring could only clasp

767
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 2: into one planet because of the math. Basically, like the

768
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 2: math doesn't let you make more than one big planet

769
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 2: because anything else would be unstable.

770
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,439
Speaker 3: No, the math would let you imagine a perfectly symmetric ring,

771
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 3: and then imagine like ten or twelve or fifty tiny

772
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,959
Speaker 3: points perfectly spaced around that ring that are a little

773
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 3: bit heavier. Those would gather up all the stuff around them.

774
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 3: You'd end up with like ten or twelve or fifty

775
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 3: or whatever, identically sized objects in an orbit around the Sun.

776
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 3: Physically and mathematically, it is nothing preventing that from happening.

777
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 3: I think the reason why it's not likely to happen

778
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 3: is that it requires a lot of symmetry and balance

779
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 3: For that arrangement to get set up. It's much more

780
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 3: likely that one of them is bigger and one of

781
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 3: them is smaller, and then the bigger when eats the

782
00:35:58,640 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 3: smaller one.

783
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 2: But I feel like told me that before that there's

784
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: only like two stable spots around and stable orbit where

785
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: other things can be. You know, if I formed four

786
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: miniplanets along the Earth's orbit, that wouldn't like some of

787
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 2: them be unstable.

788
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 3: It gets much more complicated as soon as you add

789
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 3: more than two objects. But now you could have that

790
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 3: stable arrangement. You could have like a thousand planets in

791
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 3: a stable orbit around the Sun as long as they're

792
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 3: perfectly equally spaced in equal mass. That's also allowed. Earlier

793
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 3: we were just talking about like two planets around the Sun.

794
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 3: But if you allow them for more than two planets,

795
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 3: there's a lot more configurations you could have, but they're

796
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 3: also much more unstable, like they need to be perfectly

797
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 3: balanced in mass. In fact, I found some guy on

798
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 3: the web who's done a bunch of simulations of like

799
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 3: crazy solar systems.

800
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 2: You know, we say, some guy on the web, Yeah,

801
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: on the web, Wait what this is? Okay, mm hmm.

802
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 3: I found some guy in the web who posted a

803
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 3: blog about simulations he had done about crazy solar systems

804
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 3: where you have like sixty jupiters in orbit around the

805
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 3: Sun and it's stable. Like if you arrange them perfectly,

806
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 3: the sixty jupiters can stay in orbit around the Sun

807
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 3: if you set them up perfectly.

808
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 2: I see, I see. But how do you know he's right?

809
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 2: I mean, no offense. But if I told you that

810
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 2: some guy in the Internet it's only something, would you

811
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 2: assume it's true?

812
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 3: No, But this one makes sense. I mean, just from

813
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,919
Speaker 3: symmetry arguments, a ring could collapse and do a bunch

814
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 3: of objects. As long as it does it symmetrically, then

815
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 3: it's still stable. Every one of those objects is the

816
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: same as any other objects, so it feels the same

817
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 3: gravity from all the other ones. They all cancel out essentially.

818
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: But I wonder how true that is. I don't know.

819
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: I mean not that I don't trust your guy on

820
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 2: the internet, but you know, at some point, maybe, like

821
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 2: if you have four things going around the Sun, maybe

822
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 2: the angles and the way they interact with each other,

823
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 2: and depending on how big they are, maybe it would

824
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: make it unstable.

825
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 3: I think it's a pretty simple extension of the argument

826
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 3: for why you don't feel gravity from anything that orbits

827
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 3: the Sun at like the same radius as you or

828
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 3: larger or for example, as you dig into the Earth,

829
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 3: you're not feeling gravity from layers of the Earth that

830
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 3: are larger than you because they all add up to

831
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 3: cancel out. There are fewer that are closer to you

832
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,839
Speaker 3: and more that are further and they all balance out.

833
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 3: It's basically the same argument. It's like gravitational shell argument.

834
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 3: If you have a whole string of earths in orbit

835
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 3: with you, all of their gravity will cancel out.

836
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 2: All right, Well, it sounds like we have a big mystery,

837
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 2: which is that it sounds like it's possible for two

838
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: planets to share an orbit definitions notwithstanding, but we don't

839
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 2: really see that in our solar system or maybe in

840
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 2: other solar systems out there in space. So let's dig

841
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: a little bit more into that mystery. But first, let's

842
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: take out a quick break.

843
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,560
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844
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,800
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845
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,880
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846
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847
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848
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849
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850
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851
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852
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853
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856
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857
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858
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859
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860
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861
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862
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863
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864
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865
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866
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867
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Speaker 2: All right, we're asking the question why can't planets share

886
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 2: what's going on? Why are they so selfish?

887
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 3: It's the parent's fault.

888
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: It's always the parent's fault. But yeah, the planets like

889
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: to be loners. They don't like to share an orbit.

890
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 2: And we sort of know that mostly from what we

891
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 2: can see, right, because it sounds like theoretically it is

892
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 2: possible to have like two Earth orbiting or maybe for

893
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: Earth orbiting the same circle around the Sun. But we

894
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: just don't see that, and so the question is like

895
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 2: why not. Yeah, I think that mathematically it's possible. If

896
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: you set up a solar system that way, you're like

897
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: a solar system builder, and you bring into Jupiter's and

898
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: you align them perfectly, you could build a solar system

899
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 2: like that, which would be stable and last a long time.

900
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: You know.

901
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 3: The other question is would a solar system like that

902
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 3: form naturally? I think they're the answer is that it's

903
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 3: most likely for things to collapse into one big planet,

904
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 3: or for things to not really collapse at all, like

905
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 3: Pluto or the asteroid belt because of tidal forces, or

906
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 3: they're just two distant gravity. And for things to collapse

907
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 3: into two really big or three big objects would require

908
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 3: a sort of a perfect symmetry where they like divide

909
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 3: up the mass budget into two or three portions and

910
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 3: each of them gather it up themselves. I think that

911
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 3: just requires a lot of balance for it to happen.

912
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: Like it basically a big coincidence you're saying, But I

913
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 2: guess maybe paint the scenario for us. So we have

914
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 2: initially around the young Sun sort of a ring of rocks.

915
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 2: Let's say, like there's a ring of rocks around where

916
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 2: Earth goes around the Sun in the Earth's orbit, and

917
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: maybe there's a little bit more rocks in one spot,

918
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 2: and so that once starts to gather more things, but

919
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 2: there's a whole bunch of things all around the circle.

920
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: Does that mean like the things on the other side

921
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 2: of the orbit somehow speed up in order to catch

922
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 2: up to the Earth or slow down. What causes those

923
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 2: things to slow down or speed up? And if they did,

924
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 2: wouldn't they change orbits?

925
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 3: No, you're right, something on the other side of the

926
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 3: Earth like perfectly opposed to the Earth, feels no gravitational tug. Right,

927
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 3: the Earth cannot pull that thing into itself because it's

928
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,720
Speaker 3: at a labraange point. Right, So something that's there will

929
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 3: stay there. But that's a really tiny spot, the actual

930
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 3: exact lagrange point. Anything slightly ahead of it or slightly

931
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,479
Speaker 3: behind it will feel a gravitational tug from the Earth,

932
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 3: and eventually the Earth will pull it into itself.

933
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 2: But it has to go all the way around the circle,

934
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 2: meaning like it speeds up in the orbit. But if

935
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 2: it speeds up, wouldn't it change orbits?

936
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's possible. Also, the Earth could tug it, not

937
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 3: so that it ends up in the Earth, but that

938
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 3: it falls into another orbit or falls into the Sun. Right.

939
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 3: And remember that this is a very simplified way of

940
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 3: thinking about the Solar System, just one planet and the

941
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 3: Sun and one rock. In reality, there's lots of other

942
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 3: things going on there, So lots of chaotic tugs from

943
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 3: Jupiter and Mars as it passes by, so all sorts

944
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 3: of stuff disrupting this pile of rocks, some of them

945
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 3: falling out of this orbit and landing on Venus or

946
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 3: landing on Mars, or some of them ending up on Earth.

947
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 3: That's why Earth has rocks from all over the Solar

948
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 3: System that are landing on it, not just things from

949
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 3: our orbit.

950
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: Oh I see you're saying like maybe the picture I

951
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: had of how planet's form is not quite correct, Like

952
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 2: you know, maybe to go from the equivalent of Saturn's

953
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 2: rings around the Sun to a planet, it doesn't mean

954
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 2: like a ring of rocks is kind of collapsed into

955
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 2: a planet, like Earth might be made out of the

956
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 2: rocks from different rings.

957
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 3: Absolutely it is.

958
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 2: Other planets might be made from rocks from other rings.

959
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah. There is is not just made from rocks

960
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 3: from one specific range of radii. Definitely, stuff is contributed

961
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 3: from the inner Solar System and from further out. Absolutely

962
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 3: there's a big mix.

963
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:43,479
Speaker 2: Oh I see. So like the history of the Solar

964
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 2: System is that it pour into a disk, then rings.

965
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 2: Then it was a free for all where all the

966
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 2: siblings for fighting over who gets which toys and which rocks,

967
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 2: and then and then whoever was left victorious, whoever it

968
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: was bigger one exactly, yeah, and whoever it couldn't get

969
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: along is sleeping outside in a tent.

970
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 3: And that's mostly the story. And to understand whether that's

971
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 3: the story the Solar system. We look around to see

972
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 3: if there's like weird stuff happening. You know, we'd love

973
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 3: to have seen two planets in the same orbit so

974
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 3: we could try to understand how that happened. There are

975
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 3: some really fascinating and interesting counter examples to this that

976
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 3: we see even in our own Solar system, like the

977
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 3: moons of Saturn.

978
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 2: What do you mean, what's going on with the moons

979
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 2: of Saturn.

980
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 3: So Saturn's got lots of moons, and there's two in

981
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 3: particular that's swap orbits. So there's the moon Janus and

982
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 3: then there's the moon Epimetheus, and these two swap orbits

983
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 3: every four years, Like Janus is on the outside and

984
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 3: Epimetheus is on the inside, which has a short orbit

985
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 3: and it comes really close to Janus and tugs on it,

986
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 3: and the gravitational interaction means that they end up swapping.

987
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 3: So now Genus is on the inside and Epimetheus is

988
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 3: on the outside.

989
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 2: Well, well, do they swap orbits or it's just that

990
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 2: they both have really complicated orbits that overlap each other.

991
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 3: Well, there's two different radii and for four years, one

992
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 3: of them has the inner one and the other one

993
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 3: has the outer one and then they swap. So you

994
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 3: can think about it two ways, like one is they

995
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 3: have different lanes and they're changing lanes, or you could

996
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,479
Speaker 3: think about it in the more general sense, like each

997
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 3: moon does four laps on the outer one and then

998
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 3: four laps on the inner one, and they're perfectly syncd

999
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,359
Speaker 3: to never be on top of each other.

1000
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: And the reason they change lanes is from the where

1001
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 2: they interact with each other, or just the way they

1002
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 2: interact with Saturn.

1003
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 3: The way they interact with each other, like the one

1004
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 3: on the inner lane catches up to the one on

1005
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 3: the outer lane and tugs on it, pulling it in,

1006
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 3: and the gravitational interaction pushes the one from the inner lane.

1007
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 2: Out well, meaning sort of like a younger sibling who's

1008
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 2: motivated to catch up to its older sibling and then

1009
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 2: or takes it for four years.

1010
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 3: What else motivates younger siblings if not that? I mean,

1011
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 3: that's basically it.

1012
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 9: Right.

1013
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 2: Wait, are you trying to take credit for your brother's accomplishments?

1014
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 2: Is this what this is all about?

1015
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 3: That's right?

1016
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: Is this why this whole episode is just to take

1017
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 2: some of your brother's glory.

1018
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 3: My entire life is just nothing but setting the stage

1019
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,720
Speaker 3: to take credit from my younger brother. That's all right, right, yeah.

1020
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,919
Speaker 2: Okay, you're trying to overtake him and steal his orbit.

1021
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 3: Yeah. The whole thing is a fifty year long con man.

1022
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 2: The whole thing is a therapy session. I feel like, oh, in.

1023
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 3: The end, you know, you're defined by the circumstances in

1024
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 3: which you're born, just like Saturn and Janus and Epimetheus

1025
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 3: doomed to do this dance forever. But it's really fascinating

1026
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 3: to see this like every four years. And it's a

1027
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 3: funny story because when these moons were discovered, they didn't

1028
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 3: realize there were actually two moons there basically in the

1029
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 3: same orbit. They saw one, and then somebody else was

1030
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 3: looking at that moon and realizing, huh, this doesn't look

1031
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 3: like the same moon that was previously reported, but it's

1032
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,439
Speaker 3: in the right orbit. What's going on? And took people

1033
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 3: a while to figure out, actually the two moons here

1034
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,240
Speaker 3: that are swapping orbits.

1035
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 2: Whoa, And does the swapping happen like really fast or

1036
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 2: over years as well?

1037
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 3: The swapping happens pretty fast, I mean it's every four

1038
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 3: years that happens. But the swap itself doesn't take years.

1039
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 2: And could something like that happen elsewhere or is this

1040
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 2: like a super duper bizarre circumstance.

1041
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 3: It's a pretty bizarre circumstance. You need exactly the right

1042
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 3: radii and exactly the right masses. We also don't know

1043
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 3: how long it can go on for. You know, it's

1044
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 3: pretty chaotic, and so it seems like something else passing

1045
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 3: nearby gives just the right tug and one of these

1046
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 3: things just plummets into Jupiter. But it's an example of

1047
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 3: how really weird, rare stuff can happen in the Solar System.

1048
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 3: And it might mean that even if two big planets

1049
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 3: forming in the same orbit seems unlikely because you need

1050
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 3: just the right balance, it might happen. It might happen

1051
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 3: in other Solar systems. It might happen more than we

1052
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 3: even expect.

1053
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like it might happen, just from how

1054
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 2: random and chaotic the you know, young Solar system is, right, Like,

1055
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 2: you know, maybe you wouldn't get two plants from the

1056
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 2: same ring of rocks, but maybe, you know, you could

1057
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 2: get the Earth and then something like Mars drifts into

1058
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 2: our orbit or something, or we swap orbits with Mars,

1059
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 2: just like these two moons. That's totally possible, right.

1060
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 3: It's totally possible, And some people think that something like

1061
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 3: that might have been a cause for the collision actually

1062
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 3: between the proto Moon and the proto Earth. Remember, the

1063
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 3: theory of the Moon's formation is that there were two

1064
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 3: proto planets that slammed into each other that formed the

1065
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 3: Earth the Moon. And it could have been like two

1066
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 3: planets that formed separately and then got too close to

1067
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 3: each other, or maybe they were in one of each

1068
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 3: other's lagarrange points for a while, but it wasn't stable

1069
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:23,720
Speaker 3: and then it ended up colliding.

1070
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 2: And it sounds like it could still happen maybe in

1071
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,439
Speaker 2: our Solar system, Like you know those meteors that are

1072
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 2: orbiting with Jupiter ahead and behind it, those could kind

1073
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 2: of maybe cluster together into something that might look like

1074
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 2: a planet, couldn't they.

1075
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, eventually they might unionize and work together and form

1076
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 3: their own planet, and then they could protest Jupiter and

1077
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 3: they could get Jupiter demoted from being a planet or

1078
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 3: Pluto upgraded. You never know once you start an astronomical

1079
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 3: lawsuit what happens.

1080
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 2: Right, it might be like a planetary conspiracy and they

1081
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 2: all get, you know, sued together.

1082
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 3: Maybe we just get rid of this whole name for

1083
00:49:58,040 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 3: a planet, which is sad.

1084
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,280
Speaker 2: This stuff out there, man, let's just call them yeah rocks,

1085
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 2: big floating rocks, unless they're made out of gas.

1086
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 3: Oh no, there's big planets the size of balls.

1087
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 2: Just call them balls. If it's circular and it's southern space,

1088
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 2: just call them space balls.

1089
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 3: I know. And they even require these things to be spherical,

1090
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 3: and none of them actually are sphericle, right, even the

1091
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 3: Earth is not technically spherical.

1092
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 2: Oh boy, so it's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Well,

1093
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 2: how about out there beyond our Solar system? You know,

1094
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 2: now we can see with our telescopes really far away

1095
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 2: distant stars and distant planets. Have we seen two planets

1096
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 2: share in orbit out there in the wider universe?

1097
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 3: We have not yet seen it, and we've looked. You know,

1098
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 3: we are pretty good at seeing planets around stars in

1099
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,959
Speaker 3: other Solar systems in some scenarios. And we can tell

1100
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 3: because those planets like orbit the star and eclipse it,

1101
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 3: or they tug on the star, and we can tell

1102
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 3: about the change and the light from the star. And

1103
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 3: so it's looking for the wobble in the star and

1104
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 3: dips in its brightness that give us clues, and from

1105
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 3: those dips or from those wobbles, we can get a

1106
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 3: sensor like the period of the planet. And so far

1107
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 3: we've never seen like two wobbles or dips with the

1108
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 3: same period that would indicate like co orbiting planets. So

1109
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,879
Speaker 3: so far we haven't seen anything like that.

1110
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 2: I feel like maybe there's something else going on here,

1111
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 2: maybe something that physicists haven't thought about, because it seems possible,

1112
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 2: it seems sort of not impossible. And given so many

1113
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 2: planets and asteroids and things out there floating in space

1114
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 2: in our Solar system, and also all of the trillions

1115
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 2: of Solar systems we can see out there that we

1116
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 2: haven't seen one, it seems like there's something going on.

1117
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 3: There's a conspiracy. Remember that we've looked at only several

1118
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 3: thousand stars to see if there are planets around them,

1119
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 3: and there's billions and billions of stars in the galaxy.

1120
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 3: That might mean that it's unlikely and not that common,

1121
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 3: but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. In fact, there

1122
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 3: are astronomers that used a radio array in Chile to

1123
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 3: look at a planetary system that's still forming. There's a

1124
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,240
Speaker 3: young star like three hundred and seventy light years from Earth,

1125
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 3: and it's not done making its planets, like they see

1126
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 3: exoplanets forming around it, but it's still got a really

1127
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 3: big disc of protoplanetary stuff. And when they studied this system,

1128
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 3: they found a big blob of dust in one of

1129
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 3: the lagrange points near that exoplanet. So that might be

1130
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 3: like a coplanet that's forming, or it could be that

1131
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 3: whatever this conspiracy is, you know, breaks that up before it.

1132
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 2: Can happen, Like maybe it's not as stable as you

1133
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 2: think it is or something. That's what you're saying.

1134
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 3: Right, Maybe it's technically possible, but it requires such ridiculous

1135
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 3: balance between all the factors that it's never practically achieved

1136
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 3: in the universe.

1137
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: All right, well, it sounds like maybe the answer to

1138
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 2: the question of why don't you have two planets sharing

1139
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 2: in orbit? The answer is a like, we don't know.

1140
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 2: It seems possible, but we just haven't seen it yet.

1141
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems possible. It might just require very very

1142
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 3: special set of circumstances that we just haven't had a

1143
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 3: chance to see yet. But as you look deeper into

1144
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 3: the universe, everything that's possible, everything that's weird. I think

1145
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 3: eventually you will see.

1146
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 2: Like two brothers that get along statistically, it might happen.

1147
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 3: Two brothers that are professors at exactly the same level

1148
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 3: of prestigious university.

1149
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 2: There you go. Make it all depends on their intent.

1150
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for

1151
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:15,919
Speaker 2: joining us. See you next time.

1152
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 3: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social

1153
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 3: media where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discboard, Insta,

1154
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 3: and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel

1155
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 3: and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production iHeartRadio. For

1156
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 3: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1157
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1158
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,160
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1167
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 3: you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact. But the

1168
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,480
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1169
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1170
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1171
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1173
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Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by FX's The Old Man.

1176
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