Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host, Joshua Tapolski,
Speaker 1: and I have to tell you something. I have been
Speaker 1: watching the show's succession, and finally, after four seasons, I've
Speaker 1: decided that I'm enjoying it. I don't know about you,
Speaker 1: the listener. If you're watching Succession, if you're not a
Speaker 1: member of the media elite the way I am. If
Speaker 1: you're not a member of the blue chech mafia from Twitter,
Speaker 1: the old one, not the new shitty one, then you
Speaker 1: maybe don't know about Succession. Maybe you're not watching it
Speaker 1: because you're not a member of the coastal elites that
Speaker 1: define and shape all news and culture. But as a
Speaker 1: member of that elite squad of soy boys and I
Speaker 1: don't know, whatever the fucking I don't know people call them,
Speaker 1: but anyhow, as a member of the squad, not the
Speaker 1: political one, but the elite squad of TV watchers, to
Speaker 1: show about a very rich family that runs a media organization,
Speaker 1: perhaps the only remaining successful media organization that any of
Speaker 1: us have ever seen. I sort of hate watched the
Speaker 1: first three seasons. To be honest with you, I didn't
Speaker 1: love it. I didn't dislike it, but I wouldn't say
Speaker 1: I was in love with it or even totally liking it.
Speaker 1: And then the season things have really taken off, and
Speaker 1: unfortunately now it's ending. But I have been following and
Speaker 1: reading a great writer at The Ringer named Katie Baker,
Speaker 1: who's a senior staff writer there who writes about Succession,
Speaker 1: amongst other things. She also writes about sports and all
Speaker 1: sorts of really interesting stuff. And I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to somebody about Succession because I think Laura is tired
Speaker 1: of me talking about it with her, and I thought
Speaker 1: Katie would be fantastic because she's in the guts of
Speaker 1: this stuff in a way that a normal person would
Speaker 1: not be. And that's what I'm looking for is and
Speaker 1: have normal conversation about a normal topic, which is the
Speaker 1: television show Succession, which airs on HBO Max, which now
Speaker 1: I guess is called Max. Anyhow, Katie's here and we're
Speaker 1: going to talk to her, so let's get into it. Baker,
Speaker 1: Is that how you say that?
Speaker 2: Yep, Katie Baker.
Speaker 1: Have you ever had anybody mispronounce that just out of curiosity? No?
Speaker 2: But I had a funny story back when I worked
Speaker 2: in finance, when I was an intern where you know,
Speaker 2: my big boss said, Katie, how do you spell your
Speaker 2: last name? You know, because he didn't know my last name?
Speaker 2: And I was, right, that's smart, that's smart Baker b
Speaker 2: A k R. And he was so busted and everyone
Speaker 2: started making fun of him. You know, I felt cool
Speaker 2: because then that was that was the whole joke for
Speaker 2: the rest of the summer.
Speaker 1: So he used the classic. Yeah, this was like a
Speaker 1: pickup thing. I think like when I used to go
Speaker 1: to bars, like if you were talking to somebody you
Speaker 1: forgot what their name was, you would say something like,
Speaker 1: your name is so interesting, how do you spell that right?
Speaker 1: And then it was always like a real problem if
Speaker 1: their name was like Jill, that's not that Yeah, you
Speaker 1: know what, but that's so funny the idea that it
Speaker 1: was done in a work contact, and couldn't he have
Speaker 1: just like looked at your file or something.
Speaker 2: I know, I'm surprised you knew my first name to
Speaker 2: be able to even ask me.
Speaker 1: So strange. Where was this? Where was this?
Speaker 2: This was it Goldman Saxon Company down at one New
Speaker 2: York Plaza at the time.
Speaker 1: You worked at Goldman.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the first seven years out of college worked at
Speaker 2: Goldman and yeah.
Speaker 1: Really, I didn't know this. I didn't know. Okay, wait,
Speaker 1: you worked at Goldman and then for seven years is
Speaker 1: that what you're saying? Yeah, okay, and then what happened?
Speaker 2: Well, I'd say, let's see what year was it that
Speaker 2: I got a that I finally got a laptop at
Speaker 2: home and started a tumbler. That was probably in like
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven or something like that or two
Speaker 2: thousand and eight.
Speaker 1: Time. That's a great time to get online. I literally
Speaker 1: last week we were talking about this. That was when
Speaker 1: I started blogging at en Gadget was two thousand and seven,
Speaker 1: So that was that was a real online time in
Speaker 1: my recollection.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I mean, like, my online story is kind
Speaker 2: of funny in that it started way back when with
Speaker 2: e World, which used to come if you bought an
Speaker 2: Apple computer, you got this. It was like an AOL disc,
Speaker 2: except in this case it was for the Apple only
Speaker 2: AOL that they shut down e World, and so I
Speaker 2: put in the disc. I remember I got my dad's
Speaker 2: like wallet out of he kept it in the side
Speaker 2: of his car, you know, and like the side console
Speaker 2: right in his credit card dialed up on the modem,
Speaker 2: joined e World, started an account I was probably in
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know, sixth grade or something like that, right,
Speaker 2: And that led to me being like a teen moderator
Speaker 2: in a chat room on e World, which led to
Speaker 2: me working for an IRC company called talk City when
Speaker 2: I was a teen. Oh my god, yeah, wow, it's funny, Like,
Speaker 2: I know, you're a veteran of Business Week, and they
Speaker 2: had an article in Business Week at the time about
Speaker 2: talk City and they took a picture of me, and
Speaker 2: so anyway, the whole thing was so funny. But then
Speaker 2: I was kind of like not online for a while,
Speaker 2: well with some like you know, hockey and Dave Matthews
Speaker 2: band usenet in between. I always liked computers and the Internet,
Speaker 2: and I you know, had met people from the Internet
Speaker 2: when it was really weird to do that. It's kind
Speaker 2: of moulnerable now. I remember I lived in New York
Speaker 2: City at the time. I lived really close to Tom
Speaker 2: and Jerry's bar down in off Houston Street, and that's
Speaker 2: where a lot of bloggers hung out back in the day.
Speaker 2: And I remember, you know, I read, I've read a
Speaker 2: lot of blogs, and so I started a tumbler and
Speaker 2: I just would would tumble from work at Goldman, and yeah,
Speaker 2: I was kind of started writing a little bit while
Speaker 2: I was still working there, sometimes using pseudonyms, but often
Speaker 2: just using the fact that my name is so common,
Speaker 2: even in the New York media world. It's common. But
Speaker 2: there's another and there's another. Yes, yeah, so anyway, YadA YadA.
Speaker 2: So like one thing led to another, and I was
Speaker 2: kind of doing random blogging and Bill Simmons, you know,
Speaker 2: who was of ESPN at the time, read something that
Speaker 2: I wrote on the site media which gives you place
Speaker 2: as I was writing for Yes.
Speaker 1: I didn't know all this. This is so good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's how I got, you know, into that job.
Speaker 2: But you know, Tumblr at the time was like my
Speaker 2: big outlet. And then I started meeting people in person,
Speaker 2: often at Tom and Jerry's, you know, in the New
Speaker 2: York blogging scene, and that was a really just fun
Speaker 2: moment for me where I really realized that, you know,
Speaker 2: you start to kind of meet your people. And I
Speaker 2: remember I would go back to work at Goldman and
Speaker 2: feel frustrated because no one knew what the New York
Speaker 2: Observer was. It's like, you know, but but you know,
Speaker 2: but I'd beel like, you should know what that is?
Speaker 2: You know, you're it's part of the culture in the
Speaker 2: city in which you live.
Speaker 1: So that's so interesting. So this was so you're saying
Speaker 1: you were at Goldman. You're saying you started doing the
Speaker 1: tumbler around two thousand and seven and two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: is that correct.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to think what year would have been
Speaker 2: to probably twousan and eight. It was right around the
Speaker 2: like when the financial crash was like in the midst
Speaker 2: of happening. So it was just a crazy time to
Speaker 2: be watching that unfold while also going on Tumblr and
Speaker 2: seeing you know, sad photos of traders at tumblr dot
Speaker 2: com and sort of it all happening at the same time.
Speaker 1: People don't remember this era. I mean, this is like
Speaker 1: Katie Natopolis, my sister in law, had a tumblr. I
Speaker 1: want to say it was a tumbler. Sorry I missed
Speaker 1: your party, which was like really weird, bad, like people
Speaker 1: posted horrible photos of like weird shit going on at
Speaker 1: their parties. And I don't know if you remember that, but.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was like a thing that.
Speaker 1: Whole like electroclash, like New York people who had like
Speaker 1: turned into like last Night's party or whatever, which was
Speaker 1: like the Cobra snake or whatever. That was the whole thing,
Speaker 1: but media meshing. But then there were all these tumblers
Speaker 1: that people just make like I had one. I had
Speaker 1: one called Bag of Bags, which was just patures of
Speaker 1: bags that I liked, and then like like you know,
Speaker 1: like shoulder bags. I also had one called I think
Speaker 1: it was Guilt Models tumbler dot co. Do you remember
Speaker 1: Guilt the service Guilt I do.
Speaker 2: I've made many a transaction on that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well Guilt Guilt had really depressed looking models. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you remember, but they had like very unhappy
Speaker 1: looking models, and so I just started like I would
Speaker 1: just pull the people who looked most unhappy, and I
Speaker 1: would just post, it's still there somewhere.
Speaker 2: I think, like, yeah, they're all They're all there somewhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, so you were a nerdy kid. You got
Speaker 1: online using something called eWorld, which I honestly I'm trying
Speaker 1: to search my brain bank here to figure out if
Speaker 1: I can even remember what E World was. I'm getting nothing,
Speaker 1: so like it was.
Speaker 2: I think it was a brief flash in the pan.
Speaker 2: It came bundled with an apple, like I when I
Speaker 2: finally got my parents to get me my first computer
Speaker 2: of my own. Yeah that wasn't just the kind of
Speaker 2: DOS computer that my dad got from work that he
Speaker 2: never touched once in his life. Oh wow, So I
Speaker 2: got my own, like, you know, I think it was
Speaker 2: some sort of power PC desktop computer.
Speaker 1: It was a Macintosh.
Speaker 2: It was a mac And this was kind of in
Speaker 2: the still in the first Steve Jobs era, like I
Speaker 2: went to like I went to Macworld a few times.
Speaker 2: I mean I was I was in I was in
Speaker 2: deep like as a young tween.
Speaker 1: Wow, it's so interesting we have It's interesting because your
Speaker 1: story is so familiar to me, but only because of
Speaker 1: my experience. I was online really young. My dad took
Speaker 1: me to CES when it was in Chicago. I was
Speaker 1: probably twelve years old, because I was like, this is
Speaker 1: where all the game stuff is and where all the
Speaker 1: computers are or whatever, and you know, just super nerdy.
Speaker 1: But that's interesting.
Speaker 2: First of all, like, props to parents who bring their
Speaker 2: kids to these weird places and understand that they there's
Speaker 2: a reason they're asking to go. May I may I
Speaker 2: have that spirit with my kids, you know, continue to
Speaker 2: have those seriously. Okay, so E World was very friendly.
Speaker 2: It was sort of the anti AOL.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm looking at the Wikipedia entry now, just yeah, and.
Speaker 2: It's a great graphics. It was this little a little
Speaker 2: mail truck and it would say yeah mail wow, and
Speaker 2: you go to these different little houses that were different,
Speaker 2: Like there was like an arts pavilion and that's where
Speaker 2: you go to the movie chat rooms or the movie.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It was like it was like AOL like graphical boards
Speaker 2: of things and pictures that took forever to load.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm just looking at it now. It's like,
Speaker 1: welcome to e World. There's a little guy who's or
Speaker 1: a person who's like talking to you. There's an arts
Speaker 1: and leisure pavilion, learning center. So it was like yeah, online,
Speaker 1: but not online.
Speaker 2: Basically, it was it was like, yeah, there was so
Speaker 2: in a later version of your world that you can't
Speaker 2: see in this picture. It was the same interface except
Speaker 2: basically next to the mail truck there was a little
Speaker 2: off ramp to like the Information super Highway, and that's
Speaker 2: when you could go on like the unfiltered Worldwide Web.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So anyway, like I got in these chat rooms,
Speaker 2: but then they closed it down like Apple, I'm sure
Speaker 2: it wasn't profitable in any way. Or whatever it was,
Speaker 2: So I remember it so clearly, like I thought, I've
Speaker 2: thought about this a little bit with Twitter sort of
Speaker 2: being in a weird twilight phase, but I mean they
Speaker 2: literally pulled the plug one night at like midnight Pacific time,
Speaker 2: and so everyone.
Speaker 1: Did everybody know?
Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone knew, and we were all up in the
Speaker 2: chat room, like I was on the East coast. So
Speaker 2: I remember, I think, I don't think I could stay
Speaker 2: up all the way, but we might have done like
Speaker 2: a fox goodbye at midnight, but I think I stayed
Speaker 2: up or I was set an alarm and woke up
Speaker 2: and was kind of there for like the final It
Speaker 2: was just like a lot of people being like goodbye forever, right,
Speaker 2: and then it just like a little window appeared that
Speaker 2: said like goodbye, like thank you, like it. And it's
Speaker 2: a really crazy kind of experience to have gone through.
Speaker 1: God, first off, such a vivid and depressing scene you've
Speaker 1: set like where the services everybody's there waiting. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, the end of the world, right like were
Speaker 1: you're waiting for the for the asteroid to hit and
Speaker 1: you're kind of like everybody's holding hands or i'man drinking
Speaker 1: I don't know what people would be doing.
Speaker 2: But yeah, and you don't know like what's going to
Speaker 2: actually happen at the moment, What if there's a what
Speaker 2: if there was a it doesn't go or whatever that
Speaker 2: has happened.
Speaker 1: I think we're like things just kind of hobble on,
Speaker 1: you know, indefinitely.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So you said you were working in Goldman and said,
Speaker 1: this is going way back to the stuff we were
Speaker 1: just talking about. But you were working in Goldman. You
Speaker 1: had been there for seven years? Is that correct? Is
Speaker 1: that number accurate? You started like doing a tumbler, that's right, yep.
Speaker 1: And at what point did you go from like I'm
Speaker 1: doing a tumbler on the internet too, Like now I'm
Speaker 1: writing something for a blog or for like a publication,
Speaker 1: Like what was that transition for you?
Speaker 2: I think the first paid work I did was for Mediaite,
Speaker 2: and I remember it was if I wrote seven articles,
Speaker 2: they would pay me five hundred dollars. But I had
Speaker 2: to do the seven articles first. And then I was
Speaker 2: writing for Gawker. I was doing a New York Times
Speaker 2: wedding Like I wasn't the first person to have done
Speaker 2: the column in which they called altercations, but I sort
Speaker 2: of took over the mantle of it, and was you know,
Speaker 2: kind of rating New York Times wedding announcement and.
Speaker 1: So were you like trashing wedding announcement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know we're reading them. I liked to think
Speaker 2: of it as celebrating the absurdities. But yeah, for sure
Speaker 2: it was like that, right, that early aughts snark.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's like classic Goker. I mean the wedding announcements
Speaker 1: were like in the New York Times are always like
Speaker 1: the people are not normal, and like, you know, they're
Speaker 1: either like fabulously wealthy or have some really insane jobs.
Speaker 1: It's very rarely.
Speaker 2: It's always been punching down, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: No where it's like he's a garbage man and she
Speaker 1: worked retail. Like that's not you don't read about those
Speaker 1: in the New York Times. Like nuptials or whatever. They're
Speaker 1: always like he's a vagabond software developer and she's an
Speaker 1: heir to the to this like chicken fortune or whatever.
Speaker 1: And then you know they got married.
Speaker 2: Exactly like a lot of Mayflower Society references. And yeah,
Speaker 2: so many people that have the grandmother's house in Maine
Speaker 2: where they get married, and.
Speaker 1: Right, all these people have a comment, no offense, but
Speaker 1: the rich or whatever. I mean. Okay, so it was
Speaker 1: Mediaite and then Gonker, did you remember the first thing
Speaker 1: you wrote, like the first article? Man?
Speaker 2: I remember I wrote a few things for a blog
Speaker 2: called Young Manhattan Nite. One was about like the US
Speaker 2: Open I went to the US Open. And another was
Speaker 2: about you know, not using any real names, but a
Speaker 2: little bit about like Lehman Brothers collapsing and sort of
Speaker 2: the experience of some of my friends. You did some
Speaker 2: like reporting, no, not even it was like one guy
Speaker 2: that I'll call Peter said da da da, and you know,
Speaker 2: and they were real quotes, but it wasn't you know,
Speaker 2: I hadn't gone out and talked to them. It was
Speaker 2: just relaying conversations, right. It was like a little bloggy essay. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I remember that being like a big thing that
Speaker 2: like when I wrote that, like a lot of people,
Speaker 2: you know, people in the New York blog scene read it.
Speaker 1: And oh yeah, no, that sounds like really juicy shit,
Speaker 1: like you know, that's the kind of stuff where it
Speaker 1: was like, what is this right? Is this journalism? Is
Speaker 1: it like hearsay? Is it you know, is it defamatory
Speaker 1: or whatever? You know, it's like nobody really knew what
Speaker 1: it was because it was just something that was like
Speaker 1: it's part diary, it's part like somebody's like thoughts, it's
Speaker 1: part reporting. It's you know, like what an amazing time.
Speaker 2: Anyway, Like I was writing about kind of like ESPN
Speaker 2: personalities or I remember there was like a some kind
Speaker 2: of Serena Williams scandal at the time where she had
Speaker 2: you know, told like a ball a ball woman she
Speaker 2: was going to like shove the ball down her throat
Speaker 2: in a moment of anger or whatever it was. So
Speaker 2: I was writing I would write a piece about how
Speaker 2: ESPN covered that, you know, just kind of right whatever
Speaker 2: it was. And so yeah, I wrote, I wrote a
Speaker 2: few things like that, and that was what got the
Speaker 2: attention of Bill Simmons, who's you know, kind of my
Speaker 2: boss now and.
Speaker 1: Kind of your boss. I haven't met that many people,
Speaker 1: or maybe I haven't talked to that many people who've
Speaker 1: had such a similar experience where you were so online,
Speaker 1: so young, and you were doing things that were not
Speaker 1: even really online, not the internet the way it is now,
Speaker 1: And it's just interesting to hear because you did a
Speaker 1: similar thing that I did, where you had a job
Speaker 1: that you were doing, that you'd done for a long time,
Speaker 1: and then you were like, no, I'm going to blog,
Speaker 1: which is an interesting move. Like I don't know a
Speaker 1: lot of people that did it, but there are a
Speaker 1: handful of people that did it. You had a real job,
Speaker 1: though My job was like making music and chasing people
Speaker 1: for money. Your job was like.
Speaker 2: At Goldman chasing people for money.
Speaker 1: Though, well sure, but like they're much more successful than
Speaker 1: I was. I can tell you that we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about Succession, that the HBO TV show and not HBO,
Speaker 1: I guess I call that anymore the Max TV show
Speaker 1: about a media family. And we're probably going to have spoilers.
Speaker 1: So if you haven't caught up to Succession, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: turn this off, but I would just really quickly watch
Speaker 1: all those episodes and then turn this back on. So anyhow,
Speaker 1: you you recently read about the Old People in Succession
Speaker 1: and that that was based round episode four.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so episode four has a lot of great
Speaker 2: wrangling between you know what they call the quote, the
Speaker 2: Old Guard, the Gray Beards, the ember are penguins, yeah,
Speaker 2: the Emperor penguins, the you know, the inner circle of Logan,
Speaker 2: the intercorporate, but also because Logan had no real life
Speaker 2: outside the corporation, also his maybe the closest things he
Speaker 2: had to personal friends too, in a twisted.
Speaker 1: Them in The Bodyguard.
Speaker 2: There's so many things all about succession, but one of
Speaker 2: them is that next layer around the family, and just
Speaker 2: all these people who you know are are important to
Speaker 2: the family, because there's a layer beyond them of people
Speaker 2: who are probably big deals in their worlds. You know,
Speaker 2: the investment bankers, all the people that write the hundred
Speaker 2: or whatever. You know, it's supposed to be happening there.
Speaker 1: It's the hundred, that's that's their startup.
Speaker 2: Right their startup. You don't even see those people. You
Speaker 2: see them in the smallest glimpses, and.
Speaker 1: So they show a lot of the heads. Actually I've
Speaker 1: noticed of some of those people where they barely even
Speaker 1: acknowledge there, and I think that's probably purposeful.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so, you know, I've always loved those characters,
Speaker 2: and I've written before about some of the women in
Speaker 2: Succession and Jerry being one of them, and she's always
Speaker 2: just been such an interesting character in terms of her
Speaker 2: you know, succession doesn't tell you that much about people's backgrounds,
Speaker 2: but they drop little nuggets here and there, and so, yeah,
Speaker 2: you learn that she's known Logan for so long, and
Speaker 2: her kids wonder if they've you know, ever been romantically involved,
Speaker 2: and I don't think we will ever know the answer
Speaker 2: to that. But yeah, So it was after episode four
Speaker 2: that I spoke with some of them, you know, with
Speaker 2: the actors who play Carl and Frank, and you know,
Speaker 2: just about what it's like to be in that role
Speaker 2: of you know, you're kind of managing up you're but
Speaker 2: you're also managing a lot of shit all the time.
Speaker 2: What keeps them there in their minds? Like is it
Speaker 2: the money or is it the proximity to power?
Speaker 1: And right?
Speaker 2: So, yeah, so it was really fun to talk to them.
Speaker 2: And you know, one thing that stuck out to me
Speaker 2: is that those actors, as many people in succession do,
Speaker 2: have such a like rich theater background, and it's kind
Speaker 2: of made me watch the show a little bit like
Speaker 2: like it's this play and it's been fun since I
Speaker 2: spoke to them to watch it, you know in that context.
Speaker 1: Right, it's actually I mean it's funny that hearing you
Speaker 1: say that now makes me realize how many scenes on
Speaker 1: that show are like, yes, people are traveling to in
Speaker 1: from places, but like they are ultimately are often sort
Speaker 1: of almost trapped in places. Right. There's like I can't
Speaker 1: remember what season is when when Logan is like sick
Speaker 1: and he's supposed to give some big speech at like
Speaker 1: an investor conference or whatever, and they're like can he
Speaker 1: go on? Like is he with it? Like he was
Speaker 1: like mentally out of it, but they're like basically trapped
Speaker 1: in the building, right, like everybody's there and trying to
Speaker 1: like solve it. Like the episode from This Sunday, which
Speaker 1: in my opinion, well, I'll just say this, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think the latest episode it was the first time
Speaker 1: that I kind of I would say I warmed up
Speaker 1: to the show. It took me a while to really
Speaker 1: warm up to it, and I do believe, like I
Speaker 1: have a I think it's tough because where you know,
Speaker 1: my viewpoint on a lot of it is like I'm
Speaker 1: so close to people that are like these people not
Speaker 1: like close like I like them or we're buddies. But
Speaker 1: I have spent so many I've spent so much time
Speaker 1: in rooms with people like those people, or at least
Speaker 1: adjacent to those people that Like it's tough because it's
Speaker 1: like very realistic, but it's also like, okay, like I
Speaker 1: know what they're doing, you know. It's like sometimes you're
Speaker 1: kind of like, I know what they're doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But the episode this past Sunday, which was perhaps I
Speaker 1: would say one of the top five most uncomfortable TV
Speaker 1: viewing experiences I've had, like ever, and uh, and I've
Speaker 1: watched a lot of Curb Your Enthusiasm, so I think,
Speaker 1: like that's saying something made me feel like I would
Speaker 1: like to watch like another five years of Succession. Like
Speaker 1: it was the first time that I think I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't want the show. I mean, I'm not ready
Speaker 1: for this show to not be doing this, Like, and
Speaker 1: there is something that's interesting to to happen, like following
Speaker 1: again spoiler alert, the death of Logan that obviously this
Speaker 1: is on purpose and obviously they're leading to a conclusion
Speaker 1: because this is the final season, right, this is really
Speaker 1: going to be the final season. Do we think there's
Speaker 1: any chance there?
Speaker 2: No, I think I think i'd be surprised if if
Speaker 2: they were, if this is a big fake out. Sadly, Yeah,
Speaker 2: they had always said the like for a long time,
Speaker 2: they said they had five in mind and so I
Speaker 2: was like, all right, this is the penultimate season. That's great, right.
Speaker 2: So I was taken aback because I really thought they
Speaker 2: would do the five. But I guess, yeah, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's sad.
Speaker 1: But this episode, it was so full of just the
Speaker 1: worst of the characters and also in some way the
Speaker 1: best of them. And but you got to see the
Speaker 1: Emperor Penguins as they're described or whatever. You got to
Speaker 1: see the kind of older characters. They're much more unbridled
Speaker 1: in that episode, and they're like to the point where
Speaker 1: it was so interesting. There's an interaction that Kendall has
Speaker 1: with Carl, who I didn't actually, for some reason, never
Speaker 1: I never really fully understood what their roles were. There's
Speaker 1: actually like a little bit of like a lack of
Speaker 1: clarity about what they do. For a lot of the show.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, he's the CFO, okay, And it
Speaker 1: made me think a lot about like CFOs I've known
Speaker 1: and he there's something about the way he plays that
Speaker 1: character that is so CFO, like if you've met you know,
Speaker 1: and this is both like an insult and and and
Speaker 1: a sort of prop to that to him as an
Speaker 1: actor into CFOs. Generally, there's just a vibe that CFOs
Speaker 1: have and one of the things I've actually struggled with it.
Speaker 1: I'm curious to know if you what your take on
Speaker 1: this is is like, do normal people watch Succession like
Speaker 1: I've had for a little bit of I know, I've
Speaker 1: talked for a while. I'm gonna let you get in here,
Speaker 1: but I've had a sneaking suspicion for a while that
Speaker 1: the only people who really are invested in Succession are
Speaker 1: media people. And because we decide what's going on the
Speaker 1: blogs and in the papers and in the magazines, like,
Speaker 1: we have over indexed tremendously on the importance of Succession
Speaker 1: as a TV show. What is your what is your
Speaker 1: what does your take on that?
Speaker 2: Well? I think you know, the classic comparison that people
Speaker 2: have made lately is, you know, when you compare the
Speaker 2: viewership of Succession to like Yellowstone, which is kind of
Speaker 2: of you know, yeah, Succession out West and and a
Speaker 2: lot like Dummer. And I say that as someone that's
Speaker 2: that's seen all the Yellowstones and all the spinoffs and
Speaker 2: is it good? Yes? But now no?
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, my septic guy yesterday, I'm the guy. We
Speaker 1: have a guy comes up because we have a septic
Speaker 1: tank here to make sure we are sept tank isn't
Speaker 1: getting getting blow up on us. He literally was like
Speaker 1: talking to me about Yellowstone, like and I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: I've never seen it.
Speaker 2: You know, the most recent season is absurd, but it
Speaker 2: you should watch it. It's really good. It's really silly.
Speaker 2: And if you start to if you do watch it
Speaker 2: and you start to like tally up the family's you know,
Speaker 2: death count and body count of like or just all
Speaker 2: the weird things that you're like, how would this actually
Speaker 2: happen in the world, Whereas I do think succession does
Speaker 2: give sort of real world consequences to things, even when
Speaker 2: those consequences are a little like absurdist or like.
Speaker 1: Not right rich people consequences, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: But anyway, like the Yellowstone spinoffs are really good, by
Speaker 2: the way, and I really don't think you need to
Speaker 2: have seen Yellowstone to watch them. They're called eighteen eighty
Speaker 2: three and nineteen twenty three.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, somebody really, somebody really great is in one
Speaker 1: of those. I would like, I want to say, it's
Speaker 1: like Harrison Ford or something is in one of these.
Speaker 2: Is that Kristen He's in nineteen twenty three? Eighteen eighty
Speaker 2: three is strangely Faith Hill and Tim McGraw, but it works.
Speaker 1: God, this is like so American. What you're describing is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: the ultimately it's like the show's Yellowstone. I think Kevin
Speaker 1: Costners is he in the main one? Yeah? Okay, maybe
Speaker 1: he's dead. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean I got I got for my for Christmas.
Speaker 2: I got my dad the Blu ray set complete set
Speaker 2: of Yellowstone. And I don't think eighteen eighty three was
Speaker 2: out yet, so that'll be. That'll be next Christmas. And
Speaker 2: sometimes I get them these things, and I don't know
Speaker 2: if he ever really watches them or you know, and
Speaker 2: he like he and my mom watched every episode like
Speaker 2: every day. We're fell asleep to it, Like oh my god,
Speaker 2: keep asking me what the like when they can watch
Speaker 2: the new season?
Speaker 1: So wow, okay, interesting.
Speaker 2: I think they would like fall asleep during succession. Like honestly,
Speaker 2: I think, if you sure, I get it. And I
Speaker 2: find that I love watching every episode the second time,
Speaker 2: like I love watching them the first time too, But man,
Speaker 2: that second watch, you're just like you notice so many things,
Speaker 2: you know, But it's like, should someone have to watch
Speaker 2: a show twice? To appreciate it, sure, but I think
Speaker 2: that I think that not everyone will. And you know,
Speaker 2: you kind of always hear from people that try to
Speaker 2: watch it from the beginning. You know, it can be
Speaker 2: slow to get into, you know, I know a lot
Speaker 2: of people don't really love like the first few episodes.
Speaker 2: I mean, I liked it from the start, but I
Speaker 2: remember when I first started writing about it in the
Speaker 2: first season, it was kind of like people didn't know
Speaker 2: what to make of it or understand what it was
Speaker 2: trying to do. I think a lot more people do now, right,
Speaker 2: And you know, when you watch it, like with that
Speaker 2: in mind, it's it's great. But if you're going into
Speaker 2: it thinking it's going to be either really overtly funny
Speaker 2: or really dramatic and soapy, like you're not going to
Speaker 2: find and either one in the way that you're expecting.
Speaker 2: I guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, there are some dramatic moments, some dramatic beats,
Speaker 1: certainly in some of the seasons, but like it is
Speaker 1: a show of micro aggressions. It's like kind of the
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like the things that happen
Speaker 1: that are I mean, Shiv, who is the actress that
Speaker 1: plays her name I'm blank, amare Yeah, Sarah Snook, who
Speaker 1: is just like one of the most expressive actors and
Speaker 1: so has done so much with so like with so little,
Speaker 1: such like these little tiny expressions. Like in fact, there's
Speaker 1: some scenes with her and her husband Tom, who is
Speaker 1: played by the actor another British actor.
Speaker 2: What is his name, I'm blank, I'm kindly gonna mispronounce
Speaker 2: it. It is like Matthew McFadyen. I think, sure, why not,
Speaker 2: I'm such one of those people that reads and writes
Speaker 2: and can never pronounce names.
Speaker 1: But yeah, all the time, I'm like, oh right, these
Speaker 1: people are not like these American these totally American characters.
Speaker 1: They are so perfect to playing. But there's just like
Speaker 1: so much going on between them. But it is nothing
Speaker 1: like in the grand scheme of like TV drama or whatever,
Speaker 1: or just drama generally. It's so so subtle. But that's
Speaker 1: what I'm asking, is like I think like the show
Speaker 1: feels like I feel like everybody talks about it that
Speaker 1: I know, and I feel like it's been written about
Speaker 1: a ton and like Jeremy Strong is this character he's
Speaker 1: like become this meme because he's like a method actor
Speaker 1: and everybody thinks that's hilarious, which you know, I think
Speaker 1: it probably is. But like, what is the viewership of Succession? Like, well,
Speaker 1: I know they.
Speaker 2: Recently had I think this season, let's see, it's like
Speaker 2: two million or something, setting record. Yeah exactly, it's like
Speaker 2: in oh actually, oh whoa, this is actually like way
Speaker 2: more than I thought. It's now averaging eight point four million.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: I feel like it was originally like way lower than that.
Speaker 1: I'm from one point two or something like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this says season four premiere of Succession was up
Speaker 2: sixty two percent compared to season three.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, season three premiere viewership was one point four million. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so it's kind of that's that's actually really interesting. I
Speaker 2: wouldn't That's not something I would have like expected. It
Speaker 2: kind of shows how much is like created the culture
Speaker 2: that like now people are probably watching because everyone's talking
Speaker 2: about it and they're like right.
Speaker 1: No, there you go. But you see that's the media
Speaker 1: once again, the media's narrative pushing you know, people towards
Speaker 1: a story that maybe wasn't a story to begin with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I also think it's a show that's
Speaker 2: fun to watch in the context of like, you know,
Speaker 2: it's not about any certain family. There are obviously lots
Speaker 2: of influences about many families that we've heard of, and
Speaker 2: so it's fun when you you know, recently there was
Speaker 2: that big Rupert Murdoch Gabriel Sherman peace about kind of
Speaker 2: just what's what's the latest in his life, and you
Speaker 2: know some of his relationships with you know, women ranging
Speaker 2: from Jerry Hall to this you know, dental hygienicist who
Speaker 2: thinks Tucker Carlson is somehow the Messiah. And so when
Speaker 2: you start to see that and then you start to
Speaker 2: kind of put these things together, you realize that, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: this show is weird, and all these people are you know,
Speaker 2: on the surface bad, but like that's baby, and it's
Speaker 2: you know, I love the character of Roman Roy and
Speaker 2: I love Karen Culkin, and I'm like, oh, Roman, he
Speaker 2: you know, he's poor guy. Here's a there's a good
Speaker 2: guy in there somewhere trying to come out. And then
Speaker 2: they show him on that studio Hollywood golf cart and
Speaker 2: just hit looking at the people and with this look
Speaker 2: on his face, like with utter disdain, and you just
Speaker 2: realize that's the asshole that goes through the set and
Speaker 2: is mean to everyone and those are the same person
Speaker 2: and I love that tension, but some people hate that discomfort,
Speaker 2: like you mentioned this right, so it was like very
Speaker 2: cringe but very.
Speaker 1: Good, like well, one of the problems with the show
Speaker 1: that I think for for like people to get I
Speaker 1: mean not problems, but one of the challenges. And again
Speaker 1: I sort of took me a while to warm up
Speaker 1: to it. I would say this season is by by
Speaker 1: far my most enjoyable watch, but I think that you know,
Speaker 1: the characters are detestable. There's not a likable character, to
Speaker 1: be honest, I mean there's they have likable qualities. There
Speaker 1: are moments of extreme likability, like the character of Roman
Speaker 1: Roy played by Karen Culkin, as you mentioned, is super
Speaker 1: funny and also in very endearing in parts like but
Speaker 1: ultimately is a callous, horrible, shitty person with who is
Speaker 1: really pretty dumb and like That's I think one of
Speaker 1: the things of this season that I've enjoyed is this
Speaker 1: kind of exploration of how sort of inexperienced and stupid
Speaker 1: the kids of the family are, and just how so
Speaker 1: out of their depth they are in so many of
Speaker 1: their whether it's interpersonal relationships or professional relationships or ideas
Speaker 1: about you know, who they are and what they're supposed
Speaker 1: to be doing. Like it's I think there is. It
Speaker 1: seems to me like the writers have taken a bit
Speaker 1: of joy in like exposing the emptiness of these characters,
Speaker 1: because like, you know, these these people are so present
Speaker 1: in our lives and in our minds, like they're so
Speaker 1: they occupy so much, they suck up so much air
Speaker 1: and have I mean, Rupert Murdock as an example, has
Speaker 1: like altered the shape of politics. Not just an American
Speaker 1: by Baker in the world, I mean like globally. His
Speaker 1: power to wield the media as a weapon is you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like demonic, Like it's pretty crazy. And
Speaker 1: so there's something that's really intriguing about trying to understand
Speaker 1: or get a glimpse inside of, like what their lives are.
Speaker 1: Like Yeah, but again, like I think, like a big
Speaker 1: I don't know what Yellowstone is, Like I haven't seen it.
Speaker 1: My guess is there are pretty likable characters, and some
Speaker 1: of the characters must be pretty likable, like it can't
Speaker 1: all be back. But yeah, okay, okay, I gotta watch it,
Speaker 1: But like I don't know, this is a show where
Speaker 1: where you know, it's hard to you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: rooting for anybody. I kind of like, I'm like, I
Speaker 1: hope they all fail. Like that's my my overarching feeling
Speaker 1: of it is not like, boy, I hope Kendall pulls
Speaker 1: this off. It's like, you know, I'm like it's hard
Speaker 1: to watch, but like I don't want him to win. Basically,
Speaker 1: you know, we're all projecting something you know about reality.
Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting to me is like when I worked
Speaker 2: at Goldman, I was in wealth management, and there's been
Speaker 2: these studies done in the in the field where they
Speaker 2: talk about how when you have a you know, big,
Speaker 2: big source of wealth, it doesn't take very many generations
Speaker 2: to like really fuck that up, you know, basically takes
Speaker 2: like two generations by the time you get to the
Speaker 2: grandchildren where really you know, they just don't have that connection. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like it's faster than you'd think beyond. But I just
Speaker 2: remember working with people where we would refer to them
Speaker 2: as the children. We'd say, oh, well we're having a
Speaker 2: meeting with the children today, and then the children would
Speaker 2: come in and they'd be like fifty years old, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, I was like assuming that they were not.
Speaker 2: You know, this is when I was in my twenties,
Speaker 2: and like these are like grown adults, but and yet
Speaker 2: they're the children to all these institutions that have sort
Speaker 2: of already been involved with like their father and that wealth.
Speaker 2: And you don't want to always believe in these like
Speaker 2: birth word or things or whatever the you know, but
Speaker 2: there is always a lot of these. If you have
Speaker 2: enough kids, like one of them is going to be
Speaker 2: a hippie. And if you have enough kids, one of
Speaker 2: them is going to like really want to go into
Speaker 2: the father of the mother's footsteps in a way that
Speaker 2: maybe becomes pathological or you know whatever.
Speaker 1: It is right right now? Yeah, yeah, I mean so
Speaker 1: much of the show is like is like adults acting
Speaker 1: like babies and yeah.
Speaker 2: And you know a line that I just always come
Speaker 2: back to, I think from like the first season is
Speaker 2: Marcia says to Shive, like your father built you a
Speaker 2: playground and you think it's the world. And it's kind
Speaker 2: of interesting because so much of that, like you were
Speaker 2: saying in succession, like they go to these amazing places
Speaker 2: and then they never leave like the hotel or the
Speaker 2: yacht dining room or whatever it is, right and it
Speaker 2: doesn't look very fun, and I always wonder, like, you know,
Speaker 2: Shive doesn't have any friends, Like you know, none of
Speaker 2: these people have like these real support structures almost and
Speaker 2: so that's why you know they they turn to, you know,
Speaker 2: the closest thing they have is like you know, Frank,
Speaker 2: who is also actively trying to you know, caring about this,
Speaker 2: the shareholders and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean, it's it's definitely like, you know,
Speaker 1: if they were sympathetic characters, I would say, like I
Speaker 1: feel bad for them because they seem isolated. But I
Speaker 1: feel I maybe I'm being cruel in my sort of
Speaker 1: estimation of the family. But like I think about those
Speaker 1: characters and I think about the real people, I'm like,
Speaker 1: you have so much wealth, you have so much opportunity.
Speaker 1: There are so many things a person could do. Like
Speaker 1: I think a lot of what like kind of has
Speaker 1: driven the drama between the father and the kids is
Speaker 1: like he wasn't, as far as I can tell, did
Speaker 1: not come from wealth. I think his backstory is that
Speaker 1: like he's sort of a he is actually like a
Speaker 1: self made man, like a person who kind of fought
Speaker 1: for everything he had or whatever. And the kids who've
Speaker 1: just been handed it, and it's like, well, you have
Speaker 1: all this opportunity and all this wealth, and like what
Speaker 1: you do with it is like amounts to almost nothing,
Speaker 1: Like you don't have an idea, you don't have like
Speaker 1: an impulse. It's all just like kind of surface. They
Speaker 1: do seem very isolated, and they are in these very
Speaker 1: isolated situations, which I kind of to me, there's always
Speaker 1: remind me of a horror film, like I always think
Speaker 1: of like a lot of the places they're in, like
Speaker 1: when they went to the retreat Matson's like retreat that's
Speaker 1: a very horror film setting, like inside of offices, trapped
Speaker 1: inside of offices, very horrific, you know, like hotels kind of
Speaker 1: a horrific vibe to them sometimes.
Speaker 2: And I did love what you talked about, like when
Speaker 2: they were at one of the shareholder meetings, I think
Speaker 2: the one where Logan goes like quote piss mad.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, you know.
Speaker 2: I loved like as anyone that's ever been to like
Speaker 2: a you know, a Macworld or a CS them sort
Speaker 2: of half running through these long corridors at these expo
Speaker 2: centers where you know, to get from place you.
Speaker 1: Can pay you know, you know what the carpet feels
Speaker 1: like like you know, like you know how the floor
Speaker 1: vibrates like in those places. I guess like as a
Speaker 1: person who's you know, covered these things and gone to
Speaker 1: them and been a part of them and whatever, like,
Speaker 1: I understand those environments in a way that when I
Speaker 1: see it, I mean again, that's like I think watching
Speaker 1: it from me and a lot of people in media,
Speaker 1: it is different than if you're just a regular person.
Speaker 1: I like hotels, I like hotel bars. I think there's
Speaker 1: something like very enjoyable about them. But it is like
Speaker 1: a very very specific kind of anonymousness that can exist
Speaker 1: there that this like weird like all these people from
Speaker 1: all these different places and like you kind of like, yeah,
Speaker 1: nothing there is permanent. It's like this very strange sort
Speaker 1: of you know what would have been referred to as a.
Speaker 2: Temporary national waters.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this concept of the temporary autonomous zone, which
Speaker 1: I'm blanking on the writer who sort of coined it.
Speaker 1: But it's like airports and hotels and these places where
Speaker 1: they have their own rules, they have their own like
Speaker 1: all the people that are gathered but not for like
Speaker 1: to be in that place, but usually like to go
Speaker 1: between some other from there to some other place and anyhow.
Speaker 1: But like, but that's the show. It lives in a
Speaker 1: lot of those spaces that are maybe I'm getting too
Speaker 1: philosophical on it, but like I think you know about it,
Speaker 1: but no.
Speaker 2: I totally agree. I mean it's like, you know, even
Speaker 2: when they were just in la you know, and this
Speaker 2: is the classic alley experience, but they're just like in
Speaker 2: a car for so much of it. If they're not right,
Speaker 2: you know, you're in a room and then you go
Speaker 2: from the room to the car and then from the
Speaker 2: car to the next room with all the same people
Speaker 2: in each place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting to me. There is like just a
Speaker 1: there's a dread, a feeling of dread that had over
Speaker 1: the whole thing, and that I think this season and
Speaker 1: obvious for obvious reasons, perhaps like it has come forward
Speaker 1: more in a way that makes me feel engaged and
Speaker 1: excited about it. There are some plot points that are
Speaker 1: brewing that have yet to be really brought to the
Speaker 1: surface that I think are you know, as far as
Speaker 1: the drama goes, Like I make this joke every time
Speaker 1: Shiv and Tom are in a scene, I'm like, ah,
Speaker 1: the greatest romance of our time Shiv and Tom like
Speaker 1: because there is like an enormous amount of attention paid
Speaker 1: to their relationship and its struggles and their defeats and
Speaker 1: sort of you know, the possibility of reconciliation, and yet
Speaker 1: like they're again very unlikable characters that don't even seem
Speaker 1: to like each other, and you're sort of like, this
Speaker 1: is not a great romance, but it is an interesting
Speaker 1: one at the very least. But yeah, you know, Shiv
Speaker 1: is again spoiler alert, for the love of God, spoiler alert,
Speaker 1: Shive is it last we heard?
Speaker 2: I think pregnant, we believe, So, yeah.
Speaker 1: It hasn't come back up. And since the episode of
Speaker 1: like the Wake or whatever, I guess like the day
Speaker 1: after her dad died, I think is when that was
Speaker 1: supposed to have taken place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they talk about scheduling like the you know, the
Speaker 2: twenty week scan, so she's kind of still in that
Speaker 2: like fifteen weekish probably area.
Speaker 1: And just to be clear, in this season, I was
Speaker 1: a little confused, but these episodes are moving like almost
Speaker 1: day to day, like they're not there's not a huge
Speaker 1: amount of time that's gone on, right, Like, he dies
Speaker 1: and then the next episode they're flying to Sweden or
Speaker 1: wherever they're going, and that's like the next day, right,
Speaker 1: like literally or close to the day after.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like at one point, it like people were kind
Speaker 2: of wondering if it was going to be each episode
Speaker 2: was basically a day, and I think like that's gotten
Speaker 2: a little like just given the travel times between some
Speaker 2: of these continents, you know, I think there might be
Speaker 2: a little bit of fudging, but it does seem like
Speaker 2: they're from what we can see so far, they've really
Speaker 2: been kind of putting all this stuff in a really
Speaker 2: compressed period of time. And I think, what the election
Speaker 2: is a few days away or whatever, right.
Speaker 1: And they keep talking about the election and yeah, nothing
Speaker 1: has happened, So it's like, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that. I mean my understanding is,
Speaker 2: you know, and we still haven't even had Logan's funeral,
Speaker 2: which I assume will be the setting of something.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: You see the prediction here we are prediction. Yeah, this
Speaker 2: is all a prediction. I haven't I haven't seen in
Speaker 2: the head.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so we have four more episodes left, Yeah,
Speaker 1: many unresolved. What do you think where are going to?
Speaker 1: What are gonna be the big points that we see?
Speaker 1: Have any any character development, any arcs, any moments that
Speaker 1: you predict.
Speaker 2: You know, I always think about like what Jesse Armstrong,
Speaker 2: the showrunner, talks about, how you know, his decision on
Speaker 2: when or whether to have Logan die, And it does
Speaker 2: seem like the kind of thing that a lesser show
Speaker 2: would have done in you know, the second to last
Speaker 2: episode or something like that, or you know, right at
Speaker 2: the end and that's the end or whatever, right, And
Speaker 2: so I love the fact that they did it pretty
Speaker 2: early on. To me, I just am trying to think,
Speaker 2: like put myself in Jesse Armstrong's head, like what is
Speaker 2: he trying to what story is he trying to tell
Speaker 2: about this, because he's always been obsessed with the idea
Speaker 2: of what happens when you have this big thing, what's
Speaker 2: the succession that that happens, and how does it play out?
Speaker 2: So I don't know. For me, I don't think this
Speaker 2: is like necessarily going to be the big thing, but
Speaker 2: like it would be realistic to have you know, this
Speaker 2: company that's the heart and soul of its family, for
Speaker 2: better and worse, mostly worse probably you know, be purchased
Speaker 2: and kind of like sold for parts and assets, you know,
Speaker 2: spun off and like cause that's kind of sometimes what
Speaker 2: happens in the real world, and that's capitalism and it's
Speaker 2: not very exciting, but right, I sometimes wonder if there's
Speaker 2: going to be that just sort of dismantling element, Like
Speaker 2: on a personal level. There is an interesting shot that
Speaker 2: a lot of people have picked up on. You know,
Speaker 2: people pick up on all sorts of things. I don't
Speaker 2: think it necessarily means anything more, but when Kendall takes
Speaker 2: Shiv's seat and she has to sit in another chair
Speaker 2: at the table, they have a shot where she's shot
Speaker 2: from behind, kind of like in the Logan Roy shot
Speaker 2: in the opening credits where he's at the table behind.
Speaker 2: So a lot of people are like, ooh, Kendall took
Speaker 2: her spot, but as a result, she ended up in
Speaker 2: that seat. Maybe that's a sign.
Speaker 1: Okay's kind of thinking about.
Speaker 2: That ever since. But that's I'm stealing from Reddit theories there,
Speaker 2: like very blatantly.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know enough about Jesse Armstrong. Just
Speaker 1: is he the kind of you know, creator who would
Speaker 1: put that kind of easter egg in there? Like has
Speaker 1: that happened before? Like I don't know, is that like
Speaker 1: that feels like a not a stretch but no, totally.
Speaker 2: I know, you mean, I feel like, yeah, like I'm
Speaker 2: more so when I'm writing, I'm I'm going back to
Speaker 2: old episodes and looking at like sometimes you see old
Speaker 2: things in old episodes of the script where you're like, wow,
Speaker 2: there's just a remarkable amount of like continuity. Not in
Speaker 2: an easter egg way, like it doesn't feel like they're
Speaker 2: like trying to plant some like seed that is not hacky,
Speaker 2: but but it is interesting to see like the things
Speaker 2: that kind of carry through. And I'm like, just even
Speaker 2: in the context of like the Frank Jerry Carl stuff
Speaker 2: like you when you go back, you realize, oh wow,
Speaker 2: it was pretty early on that. You know, they try
Speaker 2: to like appoint her CEO like in episode two and
Speaker 2: it's when Logan has just had like a brain hemorrhage
Speaker 2: and she's like the job that makes people's head explode,
Speaker 2: Like I don't want that. Yeah, interesting, and you just
Speaker 2: start to like realize these things have kind of been
Speaker 2: in motion for longer than you'd like realize, right right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, like I don't know, I could also see
Speaker 2: it being that Kendall really does sort of win, but
Speaker 2: what is winning even mean, and that he sort of
Speaker 2: just continues on like his father's ways. It's like, is
Speaker 2: that even a good thing? You know, Like it's just
Speaker 2: kind of depressing.
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, so much as this last episode was
Speaker 1: them trying to imagine, like clearly it's like trying to
Speaker 1: imagine what their father would be doing or what he'd
Speaker 1: be like or and and trying to execute in a
Speaker 1: totally shitty, stupid, like misguided way. Right. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: the Kendall thing is so interesting because like this last
Speaker 1: episode was triumphant for him. He seemed like he was
Speaker 1: like you know, on draw Uggs and was like hatching
Speaker 1: these crazy schemes and was going to like tank the
Speaker 1: company and tank the deal and blah blah blah. And
Speaker 1: but then everybody's like, oh, look, people really like this,
Speaker 1: Like you did a great he's doing a great job,
Speaker 1: Like this is really good, and it's sort of like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's emerging as a capable leader or whatever. I mean.
Speaker 1: One thing I did respond to, I have to say,
Speaker 1: is in the scene where he does his like keynote
Speaker 1: speech or whatever, where he starts talking about living plus,
Speaker 1: which incredible, by the way. Whoever is responsible in that
Speaker 1: writing writer's room for the concept of Living Plus as
Speaker 1: a real I mean to me, it feels exactly like
Speaker 1: something that one of these companies would introduce, no question,
Speaker 1: Like it is directly from the playbook.
Speaker 2: And like it's so perc how Manton is just like
Speaker 2: cuts right through the right through it. But even after
Speaker 2: he's done that, you're still watching the presentation like huh
Speaker 2: and yeah, like I could see that this is like.
Speaker 1: Actually kind of a good Like it's like it's yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I can see a large company going like
Speaker 1: we're creating these like amazing homes that they're going to
Speaker 1: be like high security. I mean, think about like these
Speaker 1: gated communities in all these different places. Like if you
Speaker 1: could sell that package that like an apple product or whatever,
Speaker 1: I think there is a one hundred percent of market for
Speaker 1: that and so yeah, and so they captured that perfectly.
Speaker 1: But then he starts going into like all this weird
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like life extension stuff, and then
Speaker 1: you know the part of that scene is they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: like you know what it's The response is pretty good,
Speaker 1: like we're seeing some good tweets about it or whatever,
Speaker 1: and it's like you've been to events like this, if
Speaker 1: you've been to one of these like corporate events when
Speaker 1: the like when the Elon musker whoever gets on stage,
Speaker 1: it starts talking shit. Like whatever they're talking about, they
Speaker 1: are just so full of shit most of the time,
Speaker 1: just absolutely whether it's made up on the spot or
Speaker 1: it's from a script or whatever, Like there's so much
Speaker 1: of it that is just complete horseshit, and it is
Speaker 1: you know, often sort of bought by the public, you know,
Speaker 1: hook line in synchro. And I was like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is like they're really capturing both the fakeness of the
Speaker 1: whole thing and also how easy it is, Like that's
Speaker 1: you were saying, Like even though you heard him like
Speaker 1: hatching this stuff at like two in the morning or whatever,
Speaker 1: you can see how you can so easily be drawn
Speaker 1: into it as a concept. You go like, yeah, like
Speaker 1: that seems workable, Like that seems doable, Like I believe
Speaker 1: in that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's like meanwhile, I'm there and it's like,
Speaker 2: why can't we cancel this precision because it's already on
Speaker 2: the calendar. It's just one more product. And then like
Speaker 2: to your point, it's whoever is coming up with this stuff,
Speaker 2: it's like the same that we here for you in
Speaker 2: the last season, like exactly the same example. It was
Speaker 2: so perfect of just like.
Speaker 1: That yeah he is, Oh my god, it's it's incredible writing.
Speaker 1: And also I think like that one of the talents
Speaker 1: of the people who write this show, you know, not
Speaker 1: to just like hit them with so much praise, but
Speaker 1: like they just are really good at picking up what
Speaker 1: is very real about this stuff and kind of like
Speaker 1: just putting that unvarnished on display. And that's what I
Speaker 1: find I think why I'm so drawn into, like particularly
Speaker 1: the season, because there's so much of the window dressing
Speaker 1: that they're kind of showing so much of like the
Speaker 1: products and the way that these companies actually sort of
Speaker 1: like present their image to the world. Like the whole
Speaker 1: thing about like you know, doing like bad press about
Speaker 1: his dad. Now he wasn't really like you know, in
Speaker 1: with it, and they were kind of leading, you know,
Speaker 1: secretly or whatever. I think that just feels like all
Speaker 1: the artifice kind of pulling back and seeing how the
Speaker 1: sausage is made for lack of a better term, Okay,
Speaker 1: so is she going to keep the baby?
Speaker 2: Yes? I think so. One thing I was trying to
Speaker 2: figure out is like if Tom even knows that she
Speaker 2: was trying, like, I mean, obviously, I guess I don't know, Like,
Speaker 2: what does Tom think is happening?
Speaker 1: Right? Is it Tom's? Do we think it's Tom? It
Speaker 1: could not be Tom?
Speaker 2: I guess that is some people, Yeah, some people do
Speaker 2: think that, like.
Speaker 1: Right, maybe Also people were talking about the fall, like
Speaker 1: maybe something's going to happen, like because she fell at
Speaker 1: the at the wake or whatever. So a bunch of
Speaker 1: people mentioned that to me, Like I was talking about
Speaker 1: it with maybe Laura said something about it, and then
Speaker 1: somebody else I was talking to said something about it,
Speaker 1: like and I was like, oh, yeah, I hadn't thought
Speaker 1: of it. I thought it was just like she was
Speaker 1: just flustered and tripped or whatever. But I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's start Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, And I guess what's weird is that if it is,
Speaker 2: if they really, if there really are just a few
Speaker 2: days that have gone by, like it could still like
Speaker 2: that ball was only a couple of days ago, which right.
Speaker 1: I mean a lot's happened in five days or whatever, right,
Speaker 1: Like her and Tom were total enemies like five days ago,
Speaker 1: and now like they're back in some kind of weird
Speaker 1: you know, death biting like romance. Yeah, Bidey. I don't
Speaker 1: know that game I'm not familiar.
Speaker 2: With, but they Yeah, I grew up doing a lot
Speaker 2: of weird you know, rope burns and all that, but
Speaker 2: Bidy was not in the in the arsenal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Biddy's very strange. It's interesting you mentioned like how
Speaker 1: they have no friends and stuff. The thing with Kendall
Speaker 1: has a family, like this is the thing that I
Speaker 1: every once in a while, I'll remember Kendall has like
Speaker 1: several children, like at least two, right, and like a
Speaker 1: for an ex wife, and they don't exist in his
Speaker 1: world like at all. I know, like they're not there.
Speaker 2: And it's strange because we have seen them existing in
Speaker 2: his world, Like it's not like I don't know if
Speaker 2: you're familiar with sort of the Roman, like in season
Speaker 2: one he had there was a woman named Grace who
Speaker 2: watching it at the time you kind of thought was
Speaker 2: maybe his wife. And there's a daughter, but you know
Speaker 2: they've said, oh, it was just a girlfriend and their daughter.
Speaker 2: But then he's also wearing a wedding ring, so real storyline. Yeah,
Speaker 2: if you go back to season one, like the first
Speaker 2: couple episodes and that storyline kind of got written.
Speaker 1: Out, Oh wow, Okay, I remember vaguely like a girlfriend
Speaker 1: or something.
Speaker 2: But yeah, and like I always just assumed it was
Speaker 2: a girlfriend that had that had a child and it
Speaker 2: wasn't his child, and I and I sort of think
Speaker 2: that's what they have, like like RT cond it into.
Speaker 2: But people have pointed out, no, they're wearing wedding rings.
Speaker 2: And but I say that to say that, like, I
Speaker 2: think they sort of pushed that away and obviously did
Speaker 2: it well because I think a lot of people haven't
Speaker 2: really thought about it since in order to give Roman
Speaker 2: like more freedom to you know, develop his character, and
Speaker 2: you can kind of see the constraints or black theo
Speaker 2: with Kendall in the sense of that you do sometimes
Speaker 2: think about, well, wait, wait, what about when he was
Speaker 2: kind of hanging out with his kids a lot and
Speaker 2: taking them to birthday parties?
Speaker 1: I mean he did I guess he took them to
Speaker 1: uh he took them wherever they were in Rome or
Speaker 1: something is when.
Speaker 2: He yeah, they were like in the pool. Yeah, he
Speaker 2: was like the poor kids come to Rome and see
Speaker 2: their dad like floating face down on the pool, and
Speaker 2: they were.
Speaker 1: Like side character. I mean they're like you know, you know,
Speaker 1: props or basically it's.
Speaker 2: Seemed like his ex wife is doing well. She seemed
Speaker 2: to have a you know, she seems like she's kind
Speaker 2: of living her best life.
Speaker 1: So okay, I don't I have no recollection of what
Speaker 1: last time when you even saw his ex wife, Like
Speaker 1: when do we see her?
Speaker 2: It was I'm pretty sure last season at the beginning,
Speaker 2: he has like a like an operational thing set up
Speaker 2: in her apartment.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, right, like his like his like social
Speaker 1: media team is there.
Speaker 2: And I think she even has like a new man yeah,
Speaker 2: because I think she kicks him out once because she's
Speaker 2: like her I forget the guy's name. He has like
Speaker 2: a meeting early in the morning or something. But I
Speaker 2: was like, okay, good, she's doing well. There was a
Speaker 2: time where I was thinking, oh, I could see it
Speaker 2: ending with you know, shive whatever it is like with
Speaker 2: this baby being somehow important because it's the next generation.
Speaker 2: And then I was like, wait, there already is a
Speaker 2: next generation, right iverson, He's right there, right there, yeah.
Speaker 1: Right exactly. Oh god, the daming so perfect. It's the
Speaker 1: Kendall construction of that character is just like incredible. You're
Speaker 1: writing on it, and the insight is just so interesting
Speaker 1: and everybody should read your stuff. It's all all of
Speaker 1: it's at the Ringer, right, there's.
Speaker 2: Nothing nowhere else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you've got four more episodes to watch
Speaker 1: and observe and write about. Are you going to are
Speaker 1: you going to feel like? Is there going to be
Speaker 1: a sadness when Succession ends? Are you preparing for it?
Speaker 2: I think you know what, I think there will be, like,
Speaker 2: especially you know, because I've been writing about it, I've
Speaker 2: been going back and watching these old episodes and I
Speaker 2: I'm now starting to see it as this sort of
Speaker 2: big work of art as a unit, and it's just
Speaker 2: I don't know, I love this and I just think
Speaker 2: it's brilliant. That said, whenever someone says I don't like it,
Speaker 2: I'm like totally get you. I'm not going to even
Speaker 2: try to convince you. You know, if you haven't liked
Speaker 2: it by episode six of season one, like you're done right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to start liking it, but anyway, like
Speaker 2: I will be sad. I respect and admire the decision
Speaker 2: to stop it after four seasons, Like that's a pretty
Speaker 2: cool creative choice. And Jesse Armstrong has obviously shown that
Speaker 2: he has you know, really good tastes and really good sensibilities.
Speaker 2: I was joking like they should do some sort of
Speaker 2: procedural spin off where you know, there's some investment banking
Speaker 2: firm that you know, and all these people are coming through.
Speaker 2: That's kind of like the Good or something like that.
Speaker 2: You've got these recurring characters.
Speaker 1: No, they should do a spin off with the Emperor Penguins.
Speaker 1: They should be about those characters and like their lives,
Speaker 1: like what's going on at home with those characters? I
Speaker 1: have no idea.
Speaker 2: Well, and it's funny because having interviewed them, they say
Speaker 2: like they kind of have no idea either, which is
Speaker 2: so funny. Like Peter Friedman, who plays was saying that
Speaker 2: sometimes when there's little nuggets in the script about Frank's past,
Speaker 2: he doesn't know if it's real or not because he
Speaker 2: doesn't know if it's just the characters like roasting him
Speaker 2: or actually based on like the no bable of who's
Speaker 2: he exactly, like, right, who's Frank? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Right, that's amazing, that's incredible. Yeah, No, I mean I
Speaker 1: spin off potential. I mean that's I don't know. I
Speaker 1: don't know. This feels like a CAP's like a time
Speaker 1: capsule to me, like this feels like one of those
Speaker 1: shows like that if it ends, you know, it's season
Speaker 1: four and that's it. It's going to be perfect. It's
Speaker 1: going to be like what it needs to be. These
Speaker 1: aren't there's no like you said earlier one time, there
Speaker 1: isn't some big explosive drama that's happening. It's actually like
Speaker 1: in the grand scheme of things, it's a small story.
Speaker 1: It's like, who's going to run the old man's business
Speaker 1: when he kicks the bucket? Is really the question? Right,
Speaker 1: Like that's all it is.
Speaker 2: It's funny, Yeah, the number of freaking investor meetings they
Speaker 2: have had, you know that it's which is true to me,
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. It's just funny that they just basically like
Speaker 2: mark time through Logan's birthday and investor meetings and like
Speaker 2: that's that's the whole life cycle of succession.
Speaker 1: These days, the show's called succession. Do you believe we
Speaker 1: will witness a succession? I mean we've sort of I
Speaker 1: guess we have this like co CEO situation. So but
Speaker 1: it all feels like it's very impermanent, Like everybody's kind
Speaker 1: of like, well, it's just you're just kind of keeping
Speaker 1: the seat warm. Until like Mattson shows up to break
Speaker 1: the company apart or whatever final prediction. Does Matson buy
Speaker 1: the company, sell it off for parts that do the
Speaker 1: kids ultimately keep it?
Speaker 2: I'm going to say, like, I think he buys it
Speaker 2: and sells it off for parts. I think I could
Speaker 2: see them going with a a not neatly wrapped up
Speaker 2: satisfying conclusion. I don't know if it'll be that particular one,
Speaker 2: but like, but that idea feels interesting to me in
Speaker 2: a way that I could see them playing with it.
Speaker 1: Interesting interesting. I'm going to say, since you know, I
Speaker 1: might as well answer question. I think, you know, it's
Speaker 1: got a real kind of no exit thing going on,
Speaker 1: Like I think it's possible, like they're in a room
Speaker 1: in hell together, you know, like that, and then and
Speaker 1: that's the room they're going to be in for the
Speaker 1: rest of their lives, like constantly warring over this, like
Speaker 1: inconsequential bullshit that only matters to them, and only matters
Speaker 1: for reasons that are like this is the kind of
Speaker 1: esoteric like sentimental pride and shit, you know, just like
Speaker 1: weird sort of like familial stuff, you know, like or
Speaker 1: cousin Greg is going to become somehow b CEO. I
Speaker 1: think there's a possibility that just for some reason, somehow,
Speaker 1: like his dad is the actor's still alive, right, who
Speaker 1: plays his dad?
Speaker 2: Believe?
Speaker 1: So so weird question to ask it. So yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like James Cromwell, yes, who is also has a great
Speaker 1: character arc in Six Feet Under, one of the greatest
Speaker 1: television dramas of all time.
Speaker 2: So funny because I was just about to reference Six
Speaker 2: Feet Under in the sense of I'm thinking of the
Speaker 2: finale where you see Billy and uh, what's the what's
Speaker 2: the women's saying I forgot his sister Brenda Billiam Brenda
Speaker 2: and it's like there, all these years later, they're still
Speaker 2: together bickering and he's just like talking at her and
Speaker 2: she's so bored, and like I love that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The Six Feet Under ending is I think iconic and
Speaker 1: like just so over the top and it's like taking
Speaker 1: it to its logical conclusion, like just unbelievable. Like Laura
Speaker 1: actually introduced me to that show. She had watched it.
Speaker 1: She's like, oh my god, we have to watch it,
Speaker 1: and I was like just absolutely devastating.
Speaker 2: Made the crossover between the two shows, right, Yeah, it
Speaker 2: would be funny to imagine the logan episode of Six
Speaker 2: Feet Under. You know, the opening scene of him in
Speaker 2: the aeroplane bathroom.
Speaker 1: No, that's a great idea, that's amazing. Well, his death
Speaker 1: is very six feet Under. I mean a lot of
Speaker 1: that show is like people dying in the most stupid
Speaker 1: or mundane ways, because that is what happens, right, like, like,
Speaker 1: you know, what is the story, Like Tom says, he
Speaker 1: was like trying to fish his iPhone out of the toilet.
Speaker 2: That Carl clogged. He says, by the way, which I
Speaker 2: didn't even hear until I watched it like the third time.
Speaker 1: Such an unglamorous, sad, little death for such a big man.
Speaker 1: And that is like and that's sort of like it's
Speaker 1: a interesting fuck you, Like he didn't die in some
Speaker 1: heroic yeah, or even like I don't know.
Speaker 2: Emotional like yeah, final goodbye.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just that, but like death, I mean that was
Speaker 1: I actually thought that episode. Sorry, I know we keep
Speaker 1: going down rabbit holes, but I thought that episode was
Speaker 1: one of the finest depictions I've ever seen of what
Speaker 1: it's really like to get bad news, like the way
Speaker 1: the bad news, not the whole thing, because I actually
Speaker 1: thought they went on a bit long with the with
Speaker 1: the whole like kids find it out thing, It just
Speaker 1: felt like it took a little longer than needed to.
Speaker 1: But I was like at the end of it, I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, I think they could have edited down, like
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes of that could have been edited straight out
Speaker 1: and it would have been fine. But the way the
Speaker 1: news is communicated and the call comes through and that
Speaker 1: whole thing is like, I'm like, this is exactly what
Speaker 1: it's like when somebody tells you that somebody has died.
Speaker 1: This is the exact feeling, and this sort of like
Speaker 1: the way it like sounds when you're listening to them
Speaker 1: on the phone, or when you know, if you're listening
Speaker 1: to somebody get the news or whatever. Anyhow, we got
Speaker 1: to wrap up, Katie. This has been so fascinating, not
Speaker 1: only the succession talk which is Lee, which was like
Speaker 1: I wanted to get into and it was desperate to
Speaker 1: get into because I really was hoping to do this
Speaker 1: kind of stupidly detailed exploration with you. So I'm glad
Speaker 1: that we did it, but like the what a fascinating,
Speaker 1: Like You've had such a fascinating career and like I
Speaker 1: had no idea what a long strange trip it had
Speaker 1: been for you to the world of journalism, and is
Speaker 1: this it? Are you done? You're not going to go
Speaker 1: back to Goldmen or anything.
Speaker 2: Who knows if they'd ever have me back? But no.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm it's been funny like writing about Succession
Speaker 2: the last few months, and I'm like, this is kind
Speaker 2: of silly, but also kind of nice. This has become
Speaker 2: like my mini beat for a little while here.
Speaker 1: With your background, I would imagine there's a lot of
Speaker 1: like material there from those like that World of Money
Speaker 1: that would be really anyhow, this is great. You got
Speaker 1: to come back and we got to do this again.
Speaker 2: You know, we should talk about the show Industry or
Speaker 2: something down the road. I don't know if you've ever
Speaker 2: watched that show.
Speaker 1: It's kind of interesting our industry.
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 1: I have watched so Industry. I have watched alone because
Speaker 1: Laura hated it. When I'm like alone in front of
Speaker 1: the TV and I want to watch something, that's one
Speaker 1: of those shows that I've put on because i know
Speaker 1: Laura won't watch it with me and doesn't care about it.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, Okay, I'm not going to like try
Speaker 1: to you know, because I'm not going to watch, you know,
Speaker 1: an important show. Yeah, he's interesting. It is definitely in
Speaker 1: the family.
Speaker 2: I thought season I like season two a lot better
Speaker 2: than season one, and now I'm they've like hooked me
Speaker 2: a little bit more than I is it?
Speaker 1: Are they continuing to make Industry? Is that going to
Speaker 1: be a show they're getting? Yeah?
Speaker 2: So season three there I think filming now? And the
Speaker 2: guy that what's the guy the guy from Game of Thrones?
Speaker 2: You know nothing, John Snow, John Snow.
Speaker 1: Isn't it John's coming to industry? It's just John Snowe's
Speaker 1: coming to industry would sell a lot, put a lot
Speaker 1: of asses in seeds. Actually, all right, fine, maybe I'll
Speaker 1: finish season two of Industry and then and then we'll
Speaker 1: have talk about it. Or maybe I'll watch all of
Speaker 1: Yellowstone on a Blu ray box set and and give
Speaker 1: you my take on What was the character you mentioned?
Speaker 1: What was her name?
Speaker 2: Oh, Beth Button, Debbie Boone or you'll see Debbie Boone.
Speaker 2: That's actually her.
Speaker 1: That's what that's a person, that's a verse. What did
Speaker 1: you do do this her day?
Speaker 2: That's her character's day, that's her characters? Da am I?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't even know. Here's the thing about Yellowstone. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I know we're just so over time here, but like
Speaker 1: I don't even know when it's set. Like in my
Speaker 1: mind it's like a Western set in the old days.
Speaker 1: But it's not, is it.
Speaker 2: It's a modern got to like go on the journey
Speaker 2: for yourself. I guess you want to tell me.
Speaker 1: There must be some shows that are not set in
Speaker 1: present day because they're called nineteen twenty three three? Okay, good,
Speaker 1: all right, Well listen, this is great. You got to
Speaker 1: come back. We're going to talk about industry, We're going
Speaker 1: to talk about Yellowstone, and then some secret third thing
Speaker 1: that has yet to be put on television yet, and
Speaker 1: we're going to have a long conversation about it. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for doing this.
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it you as well. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Well that is our show for this week. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think there's a good chance I'm going to be
Speaker 1: discussing Succession after next week's episode, and so just going
Speaker 1: to be filling this the next one with huge spoilers
Speaker 1: about whoever is going to die next that show. But anyhow,
Speaker 1: we'll be back with more what future, And as always,
Speaker 1: I wish you and your family the very best