1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Unaddictioned the podcast. My name is doctor Enzinga Harrison. 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health. 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery. 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: have helped them along the way, and the formulas that 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time. 9 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: I am so excited to tell you about my book, Unaddictioned, 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, is 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: now available from Union Squaring Company or wherever books are sold. Hey, y'all, 12 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: welcome to Unaddictioned Podcast. I am thrilled this episode to 13 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: be talking to Kadija Ola Watoyan, who affectionately goes by 14 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: Katie's Attorney and recovery from Alcohol Use disorder. Born and 15 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: raised in New York City, now living in Tulsa, and 16 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: founder of Sober Black Girls Club. We spend so much 17 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: time talking about how she came to found Sober Black 18 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: Girls Club and why, and I really appreciate how we 19 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: landed on her final words of wisdom for Black girls 20 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: and black women, specifically about the importance of rest and 21 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: unlearning the idea that productivity defines our value and the 22 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: risk of always being productive to our health. So this 23 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: was just an incredible conversation. Let's get into it. We're 24 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: on the record. So welcome to the Unaddictioned Podcast. So 25 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: excited to have you. Thank you for having me. I'm 26 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: so happy to be here. Yeah, I'm just happy to 27 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: be you. 28 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: When I got your invitation that they had to say yes, yes, yes, 29 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: because having conversations with other black women about addiction as 30 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: a abuse, et cetera is important. So I was just 31 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: so excited to be invited. 32 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 1: Thank you, Yes, thank you. So we started this podcast 33 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: to bring awareness to my book that came out January 34 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: ninth called Unaddictioned Six mind Changing Conversations, Thank you that 35 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: could change a life. Exactly like you said, we have 36 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: to be talking about this, and I think specifically for 37 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: Black people, specifically for Black women. Whereas we have lower 38 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: rates of addiction than other races and ethnicities, when we 39 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: develop addiction, the consequences fall on us more quickly, more severely, 40 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: and these illnesses kill us at higher rates, and so like, 41 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: genuinely we have to be having these conversations to save life. 42 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: So I'm just going to ask you to tell us 43 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: who you are, what your journey has been, what your 44 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: passions are, and I'll tell you. The book aims to 45 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: help people figure out their own individual magic formula, and 46 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: the podcast I'm hoping people can hear themselves in the 47 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: conversations and say, maybe that part fits into my own formula. 48 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: So can you just tell us who you are? 49 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 2: Yes? I love that. So, yes, my name is Katie Eloatoyan. 50 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 2: As they get older, I found myself going more by 51 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 2: my full name, and it's you know, the first day Ramadan, 52 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 2: so Ramadama bar for anyone who's who's practicing. My full 53 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: name is Khadija, our first name, but folks do call 54 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 2: me Katie. I'm from Staten Island, New York, so east 55 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 2: coast definitely goes, even though I wouldn't was that there 56 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: right now what we state Island New York had pretty 57 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 2: much at that time thinking I had an average childhood 58 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 2: until like years later like oh well nope, that's that average. 59 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: A shrauma, Java drama, but blowing up. You know, I 60 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: was really confident, go get a child, you know, really smart. 61 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: I could talk my wise gymnastics. You know, I started 62 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 2: working since I was fourteen. I was always like an 63 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 2: I don't want to say an overachiever. I just excelled 64 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: in the things that made me feel, made me feel happy, 65 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: or that I proceed to be important. When it was 66 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 2: time to go with always to college, I made sure 67 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 2: to go somewhere as far as away as possible from 68 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 2: my parents. So like the farthest place I could go 69 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 2: in New York will stay within the New York State 70 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: school system for education was Buffalo. So you know, when 71 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 2: it was time to go, I went to Buffalo Stay. 72 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: And I remember the first day that my well, the 73 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: first day being there, my dad and my brother dropped 74 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 2: me off. And as soon as they like left to 75 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 2: head back down state to New York City, like, I 76 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: had gotten a knock on my door and it was 77 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: a member of a fraternity and he was like, hey, 78 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: do you want to hang out? And I was just 79 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: like sure. So later on that day, later on that 80 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: day in the evening time, you know, he introduced me 81 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: to my first drink, and from there on I was like, oh, 82 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 2: my gosh, this it was just so magical, It felt 83 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: so great, it felt amazing. I kind of skipped my 84 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 2: religious background, so I grew up, you know, in a 85 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 2: Muslim home to Nigerian parents, so there was no alcohol 86 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 2: in the household. I used to say initially when I 87 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 2: first started to like have these conversations on a broader platform, 88 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 2: I used to say, like, I didn't know anyone who 89 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: drank when I was younger, But that's not true. I 90 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: just didn't. Alcohol just wasn't in my mind and I 91 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: didn't care for it. I didn't like really, I just 92 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 2: didn't put two and two together. Right. In hindsight, I 93 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 2: realized that I actually went to school with someone who 94 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 2: would constantly come to. 95 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: School drunk, like high school, middle school, elementary school, high school. 96 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 2: High school with vodka her bottle. And I my head, 97 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: you're crazy, like this is just like what you do 98 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 2: being just mental, So that's this is give me an 99 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: idea and I just stop there and not trying to 100 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 2: put this person's business on fut street. But yeah, I 101 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 2: realized later on, like, oh wow, this person was suffering 102 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 2: from addiction in front of me, and no one did 103 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: anything but like judge her, including myself and put her 104 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: to the side anyway. So throughout undergrad you know, I 105 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 2: will say that the first time I started drinking A 106 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: was always magic for me. It helped me get out 107 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 2: of my body. So I'd be very clear. I didn't 108 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: develop an addiction until two thousand and let's say eighteen, 109 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: But from like twenty and thirteen, I believe that's when 110 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 2: I started. Don't quote no. So that was not don't 111 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 2: quote me. 112 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: But years what's before I would like to quote Katie 113 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: it was twenty thirteen. 114 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 2: I'm just kidding, go ahead, I get confuse it like 115 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 2: my law school day that grad I just I think 116 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: it's like two thousand. I don't even know. 117 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: No, I do the same thing. I'm like, I graduated 118 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: in medical I graduated medical school in ninety eight. It's like, no, No, 119 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: you graduated college in ninety eight. 120 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'll just say this for the next four years. 121 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: I'll say this. My drinking was always problematic because I 122 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: used it to escape. I used it to literally check out. 123 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 2: I didn't drink to socialize. I drank to the point 124 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: where I was not going to remember what happened or 125 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: I was just an out of body experience and for 126 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 2: the next four years, it was okay, does everyone drink really, 127 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: you know, drink and appropriately. And I was going to school, 128 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: you know, I was part of sorority. I DoD a 129 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: government body and was an assistant. Like I am checking 130 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: out I'm checking out boxes, I'm doing what I had 131 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: to do. So it wasn't a big deal when it 132 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: was time for me to like when it was time 133 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: to graduate, I was trying to figure out what I 134 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: wanted to do. And I think it was like the 135 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: death of Trey m and Martin rest in peace and 136 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: and and the fact that I liked a challenge, and 137 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 2: I felt like law school was going to be that 138 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 2: that scenario where I can be challenged. But I never 139 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: I didn't grow up wanting to be a lawyer. In fact, 140 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 2: when I went to college, I went to study communications 141 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: and theater, and I remember like that's what I applied 142 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: for to get in. And I remember like the first 143 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 2: day of school, I'm just like this is just so easy. 144 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: And that's still child like the mindset I had of 145 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 2: just always feeling like I had I couldn't be myself. 146 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: I had to be I had to be or do 147 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 2: more like ignoring my own interests for what I thought 148 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: would bring me like you know, you know, glory and 149 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: and and just occolades and and a lot of appreciations. 150 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: It would make you good enough. 151 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so yeah, So it was a passing shiamarin 152 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: and then just me thinking like okay, if I have 153 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 2: a lot of degree, no one could tell me nothing. 154 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: And I went to and I went to law school 155 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 2: without without thought, like literally graduated, applied, got in and 156 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 2: you know, law school and the legal practice is a 157 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 2: field of just not just, but includes more drinking. It 158 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,719 Speaker 2: glorifies drinking, It rewards us, It rewards our hard work 159 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: drinking and to fit in yes, yes, just like college. Yes, 160 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 2: and so yeah the next three years again drink. But 161 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,479 Speaker 2: I excelled in school, I selled in like extracurricular activities. 162 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: I excelled in my in work. However, I was drinking 163 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: at an abnormal rate. And one of the indicators that 164 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 2: like my body was trying to tell me that this 165 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 2: is the problem and I did not even know. And 166 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 2: it's so funny how we're now in Ramadan. I will 167 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 2: say in my second year, I had an internship. And 168 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: in this internship, it's really common for law students to 169 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,679 Speaker 2: work intern during the summer and you want to a 170 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 2: nice firm get a big pay chat. So I'm working 171 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 2: at a firm getting an enormous amount of money that 172 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 2: I've never even was able to have my hand up on, right, 173 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 2: So I'm living life. The firm is treating or rewarding 174 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 2: me constantly with like dinners and cocktail hours. So I'm drinking. 175 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 2: I'm having fun. So at that time in my life, 176 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: I always told myself when Ramadan came, I would not 177 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 2: drink because it's it's anyways definitely not in this holy month. Yeah, 178 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: and I remember the first day that I, like within 179 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 2: that summer that I didn't drink because I was observing 180 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: yamadad my body started itching like ridiculously. Yeah, I thought 181 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: spiders falling on me. 182 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: Oh so you had delirium tremens the DTS. 183 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 2: Can you believe that no one knew? I want to 184 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 2: I had to leave my internship early. 185 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: Wow. I'm glad you didn't die, Katie, because sorry, let 186 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,719 Speaker 1: me be a doctor will kick quick and drop a statistic. 187 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: One in five people that developed the DTS and doesn't 188 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: get detoxed dies. It is like literally a life threatening condition. 189 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: When I tell you I went to doctor, doctor, doctor doctor. 190 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: They couldn't see it. They couldn't even begin to consider 191 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: it because you're a high performing attorney. Y'all cannot see 192 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: our faces. But me and Katie are giving each other 193 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: the black girl eyeballs like this is but that's what 194 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: it is. 195 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 2: Right, almost was my life, And I always say that 196 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 2: at that time I was able to stop. I went 197 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: through Ramadad without drinking. So I still feel like I 198 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: had an addiction, clearly, like my body was saying, what, 199 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 2: you know, you need to stop drinking. I imagine, Sorry, 200 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 2: y'all'm observing Ramadad to our kids of water. 201 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: By the way, Ramadan moved bark. Is that what I say? 202 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: Yes, thank you so much. So, you know, I just 203 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: always think that what if they just told Like if 204 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 2: someone told me that this is what was happening and 205 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: you needed to stop drinking, you needed to stop. No 206 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 2: one told me anything. So I went back to school 207 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: in the following fall, picked up my drinking habit, and 208 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: it wasn't until I graduated out in this year. By 209 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 2: saying it wasn't until I graduated, you know, I had 210 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 2: the apartment of my dreams, car and attorney. You have 211 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 2: a job. You know, I did exceptionally well on the bar, 212 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 2: but internally I was a mess. I was not happy 213 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 2: and I didn't know why. I didn't know why I 214 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 2: was unhappy. I didn't know why I was sad. But 215 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 2: the only at that time I had no idea or 216 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 2: concept of like hoping mechanisms and trauma and A B 217 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 2: and C and this and that. So I did what 218 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: I need to do, which was drink. Yeah, that's what 219 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 2: I need to do. 220 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: I drank the solution until it's the problem and so. 221 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I drank. And it was when a 222 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: therapist said, you know, maybe two years later, it happened 223 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 2: really quickly when she said, I think you're like you 224 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:30,719 Speaker 2: have an addiction. And I just was looking at her 225 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 2: like you're crazy. I do not have an addiction. Didn't 226 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: know what addiction it was, didn't even know black people 227 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 2: could be addicted to anything, didn't know. I just was 228 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: just in the wind and I literally left her office. 229 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 2: Didn't see her a year later when I finally was 230 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: able to admit, oh, I think alcohol is at the 231 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: root of a lot of the external problems. So because 232 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 2: back when you're drinking, problems arise, you get get fired, 233 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 2: you don't go show up to work, you get to arguments, 234 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 2: use relationships, and I was experiencing all of that, and 235 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: she was telling me like, we can't get to the 236 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 2: root of why how we got here, but you need 237 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,119 Speaker 2: to stop drinking, Like that's ting on more problems. 238 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: And wasn't Katie, was it one thing a year later 239 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,839 Speaker 1: that really kind of made you say, let me take 240 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: a look at this, or was oh, if you will 241 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: share it with us. 242 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm very honest. I realize so some things 243 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 2: I think, like where you're going through an addiction, you 244 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:30,719 Speaker 2: blame a lot of things of the addiction that and 245 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 2: you realize, Okay, that's just not for me. So I 246 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: just couldn't work. I just did. I had no motivations 247 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: and get up and go to work. And I think 248 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 2: at that time, like a second two year attorney, like 249 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 2: going through like three firms, that's that's a problem. Yeah, 250 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 2: and putting myself in like Missy situations where I wasn't 251 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: where you know, I constantly had to go to the doctor, 252 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 2: my doctors. Why would you want I was getting sick? 253 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: Am She was like why, Like you can only see 254 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: me really once or twice a year, getting this is 255 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 2: getting ridiculous. So it was just honestly like in cumulation 256 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 2: of things. But I think that once I couldn't afford 257 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 2: my apartment anymore and I had to move back to 258 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 2: my parents house. Yeah, that's what it was. I was like, 259 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 2: I have to get my life together. 260 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: I want to put that right next to So the 261 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: book is divided into six chapters, and it has this 262 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: idea that addiction develops for biological, psychological, and environmental reasons, 263 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: and you're born into some of those right, So biologically 264 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: you're born into a genetic risk risk. Psychologically you have 265 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: your childhood experiences. And so I love what you said 266 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: when you started. You were like, I thought I had 267 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: the average childhood and you said, but no trauma, trauma, trauma, 268 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: And unfortunately those two are not mutually exclusive, like average 269 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: childhood and trauma trauma, trauma. A lot of people don't 270 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: realize what they experienced as kids or trauma, and that's 271 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: setting them up. And then environmentally is like the home 272 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: environment for yours, like Nigerian Muslim home for example. But 273 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: then these repeat again throughout our lives. So biologically, when 274 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: we develop illnesses get prescribed in medication something like that. 275 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: Psychologically needing to be good enough for you environmentally is culture. Right, 276 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: So that college drinking culture and then that law firm 277 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: drinking culture. But what really stood out to me that 278 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: you said just now and so your experience is just 279 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: falling into the framework like lock and step. You said, 280 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: when I went away to college, I went to the 281 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: furthest away from home that I could possibly go without 282 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: being in Canada. Right, you were like, oh, and all 283 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: the way to the top of New York. And then 284 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: what led you to say this alcohol may be an 285 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: addiction is when you had to come back home. 286 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 287 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: Right, that's a full circle. Okay, so you come back 288 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: home and keep bringing us forward to your recovery journey. 289 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: Now that's I didn't have an even I never even 290 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 2: thought about it like that. So yeah, thank you for 291 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: like definitely that insight. Yeah. I remember like moving back 292 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: into my parents home and I was like, Okay, no, 293 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 2: I'm gonna go to I'm gonna check into a rehab 294 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 2: because you know, my parents are family, They're doing the 295 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 2: best they can. But what I realized that I had 296 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 2: to do a whole complete belief system, switch thinking switch 297 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 2: value switch that wasn't aligned, that is not aligned with 298 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: how my parents were raised, how what they find important, right, 299 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 2: So and I think somebodyn't know that, so I but 300 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 2: I just do, like, Okay, I had to go. I 301 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: needed some way to stay, and I went to rehab, 302 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: and even though I had moved back into my parents' house, 303 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 2: but I needed And I remember being a rehab and 304 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: being the only black girl at the rehab and thinking 305 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: to myself, oh, I'm not like these people. These people 306 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 2: they have been in and out for years. They you know, 307 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: don't have the level of education I have. Again being 308 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 2: just mental, they have problems. I'm okay, I'm not that bad. 309 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 2: So and honestly, while I was in the rehab, like 310 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 2: you know, they were like med students. I think they 311 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: were doing the residencies and like my doctor would invite 312 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 2: me to sit in like to use me as amused. 313 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 2: So honestly, I'm getting like good treatment in the here too. 314 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 2: I'm not really feeling like I have a problem. Yeah, 315 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: And throughout three rehab, like the workers, employees and doctors 316 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: and therapists and this and that kept on just telling 317 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 2: me that I can bounce back. I'm not like too 318 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 2: far gone. So again I'm not really understanding the gravity 319 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: of my situation. And it's even like just even till today, 320 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: I can be suffering, like I can literally tell you 321 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 2: I'm not well, not you, but this is my life. 322 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: I can be like, I am not okay, I'm on 323 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 2: a verge of a relapse, a slipt, and people would 324 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 2: be like, but Katie, you you know you just so 325 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 2: well to right, It's like, right, do you want me 326 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 2: to walk out? Like what do you want me to do? 327 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,239 Speaker 2: What do you want me to? Like? What? What? So 328 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 2: I left that rehab I think I did like many 329 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 2: thirty days because it was like the talks and reap 330 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 2: when I tell you how that same bit I went 331 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: back to drinking. 332 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want you know what, Katie. So in season one, 333 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: we spoke to Phil Rutherford, who also I think was 334 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: having trouble with drinking. He said the same thing, he 335 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: didn't know that one addiction that black people had addictions 336 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: other than like crack. That's like all you see, right, 337 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: It's like black people are in crack cocaine. So if 338 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: it ain't crack cocaine, it's cool. But like alcoholism though, 339 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 1: and then also that there's anything for us you went 340 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: to that Rehabbyer the only black face there, and he 341 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: was like, what really made a difference for him? I 342 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: hope people will go back and listen to his episod. 343 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: So somebody brought him into an AA meeting for black 344 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: men and it was life changing. Two. You're like, I 345 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: can tell you I am critically in danger for a 346 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: relapse today. But because you are not homeless, because you 347 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: are not jobless, because you are not living in the street, 348 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: because you are not begging, because you are not dirty. 349 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: People's concept of what addiction looks like is keeping us 350 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: from getting healthy. It's the same thing when you had 351 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 1: that withdrawal as a lawyer to that stop that doctor 352 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: from being able to see it. It is so, so, 353 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: so critically important that we understand, yes, black people, highly 354 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: performing like us are addicted to things and there is 355 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: help for us. And this is what I love about 356 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: sober black girls. I know we're going to get to 357 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: it and there's a community for us. 358 00:19:54,560 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 2: Well that's so real. So yeah, I left, We had 359 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 2: went back to drinking. There was an incident maybe I 360 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 2: think I left. We had like in February and in 361 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 2: July there was an incident with like me and a 362 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: family member and I really realized how much Apple played 363 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 2: a role in that, and I needed to stop drinking. 364 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 2: But at that time, I literally couldn't stop drinking, Like 365 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: I could not stop drinking. And I wasn't drinking all 366 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 2: the time every day, but maybe every other day I 367 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 2: needed to drink. And I don't know at the time, 368 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 2: but I had a bunch of like inflammation issues, stomach issues. 369 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 2: I honestly, I was diagnosed with vitis maybe a year ago, 370 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 2: and I honestly do I feel like it's there's a 371 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: connection between that and like my drinking, even though the 372 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 2: doctor there's no connection, like whatever, because I was so 373 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 2: inflamed when I was drinking, not not like just red 374 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 2: and big and bloated. So that's when I decided to 375 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: get sober or decided to emboculate join like that's why 376 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 2: I accepted I had a drinking problem, except that I 377 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 2: needed help. And I remember the first twelve SEP meeting 378 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: I did go to. I remember well, no, I looked 379 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 2: on line. I remember looking online and at that time, 380 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 2: the recovery sobriety community was nothing like how it is today. 381 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: And I'm definitely going to I'm definitely going to. I 382 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: don't say tried it touble backo stuff for that. I 383 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: remember being online like twos and stuff at eighteen, trying 384 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 2: to get help, and a lot of folks were like 385 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 2: just talking about their sobriety was like you know, coffee 386 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 2: and yoga. They were like, it was just they weren't 387 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 2: being real about their experience. They were not being real 388 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 2: about their experiences that folks thought like only the rooms 389 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: were for that, right, So I couldn't really relate. There 390 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 2: were other pro there were other girl groups of sobriety groups, 391 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 2: but I could not relate to anything that they were 392 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: talking about. Why do you say anything? But I couldn't 393 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 2: relate to most of the things they were talking about. 394 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: And then the pictures that they would use on Instagram 395 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 2: or Twitter didn't show girls that looked like. 396 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: We're never you yep. 397 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 2: So that was one. 398 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: So how can you see yourself and how can you 399 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: hear yourself when your face is not being shown and 400 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: your story is not being told exactly? Yep? 401 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: So that was one aspect. And then I went to 402 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 2: a top Step meeting and I remember like in my city, 403 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 2: the city that was living in, there were hardly any 404 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 2: twelve Step meetings I had to take, like because I 405 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 2: that's mine have a car anymore, Like I'm down back. Yeah, 406 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 2: I had to take two buses to get to like 407 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 2: the twelve step meeting that I attended, and I remember, 408 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 2: like I remember doing it for a while, but a 409 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: lot of the things that I hurt and I do, 410 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 2: like even today, if I need a meeting, if SPGC 411 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 2: is the hosting meeting, I need a mean, I'll go. 412 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,479 Speaker 2: A lot of SPGC members are twelve steppers, because I 413 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 2: think the program for the most part, I don't think 414 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: any program as a hundred pet era free, but I 415 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: think the program for the most part does I think 416 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: any program that telling people stay sober it is going 417 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: it works right and whatever capacity. So I wanted to 418 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 2: put that out there because I know how sometimes you 419 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 2: saw suppers get But I remember like going to this 420 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 2: twelve step meeting and again being like one of the 421 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: only black people there, and then it was just a 422 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 2: lot of like bragging a competition. It just it felt 423 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 2: like this is not what I needed. And now this 424 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 2: time I didn't know what I needed, but I know 425 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 2: that this wasn't what I needed. It was a lot like, yeah, 426 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 2: you gotta get somewhere so you can get your house again. 427 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 2: You know, like everyone is like robbing about how much 428 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 2: money I make, several figures I make this and that. 429 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 2: I remember a speaker meeting I attended where the speaker 430 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 2: was like basically describing her addiction and she was she 431 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 2: said something to the effect of, you know, this is 432 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 2: one of the worst times of my life. I was 433 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 2: living in this neighborhood. 434 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 1: This ain't that's the neighborhood you live in. 435 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 2: I was like, what is well with my neighborhood? Besides, 436 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: it's just not this bow I live in is very divided. 437 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 2: So this is Shore north Shore. Yeah, what is we're 438 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 2: living in that neighbor Besides, it's just not feel of 439 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: white people. Are you in your mind? Like I was 440 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 2: so mind. I was like, I just didn't understand what 441 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 2: she meant by that. Besides that they were just black 442 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 2: people in that neighborhood and that was the lack of 443 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 2: comunity attendant for them. I'm just like, yeah, this is 444 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 2: just not you know, let's be clear, I was still relapsing, 445 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 2: not blaming my relaps on that on that I was 446 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 2: just in the throes of addiction. But I knew that 447 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 2: that wasn't helping. Yeah, and that's when I decided to 448 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: intend outpatient and increase to a Blackos club. And in 449 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 2: the beginning, So Black Oos Club was just a blog 450 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 2: where I was documenting my experiences in addiction. And I'm 451 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: still relapsing, but I can still write, but I can 452 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,719 Speaker 2: write about my relapse. A lot of folks get surprised 453 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: when they hear that, Like I was still an addiction 454 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 2: at that time. 455 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, uh, yeah, read the blog right, Yeah, we're 456 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 1: honest about your experiences you were having. 457 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was still an addiction. And then like in 458 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, and I was still and I don't want 459 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 2: to say, Look, it wasn't like the height of my addiction. 460 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,199 Speaker 2: Like now I have like three months ober and then 461 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 2: I'll re left. So we and they have another dree men. 462 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 2: So I'm doing better, but to me it's still I 463 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 2: know I shouldn't be drinking, and the fact that I 464 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 2: am drinking, it's to me it's still an addiction. So 465 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 2: there's levels to everything. But even in twenty twenty, when 466 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 2: when so the Bacus Club became a collective and so 467 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 2: Blacking Club became a collective because folks in the pandemic, 468 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 2: they realized that they're drinking patterns or habits had taken 469 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 2: a turn. And also a lot of folks were in 470 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: a space now where they candid now and they've always 471 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 2: had a drinking problem, you know, when you're in the 472 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: throws of life. They were able to just keep on 473 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 2: performing and doing so, you know, they didn't have space, 474 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 2: so the opportunity to address it. So it was until 475 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, during the height of the pandemic that you know, 476 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 2: other black girls were searching on Google, you know, black support, 477 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 2: and then they found for the Blacks Club and we 478 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 2: started meeting once a week on Thursdays and we've been 479 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: you know, we've just grown from there. Now we're not 480 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 2: a profit organization, but that's how the Blackness Club came up. 481 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, So what I love about your story is one 482 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: it's so accessible. I think it was Dave and the 483 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: dopey episode that was also very young. The first time 484 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: he went to rehab and he said the same thing 485 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 1: you said. He was like, the worst thing they said 486 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: to me was you'll be fine. What they really need 487 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: to say to me is like this can kill you, 488 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: and you are young, so you have a lot of 489 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: opportunity to save yourself. But it's going to be hard 490 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: work to save yourself. And so similarly, Katie, like you said, 491 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: they were telling you like, oh, you're gonna be fine. 492 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: They made it seem like not a serious, life threatening 493 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: illness that you have. And then you were like, I 494 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: don't know what I needed at that moment, but I 495 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: knew this twelve step meeting was not what I needed. 496 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: And I think so often for people with addiction, we 497 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: don't trust them to know what they need, and we 498 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: have to trust them to know this is what I 499 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: don't need, Like this is not helping me, this is 500 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: hurting me. And because we don't create a way for 501 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: people to safely say I'm going to try something else, 502 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: then you just we make you think this is the 503 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: only thing. So if that's not it, there's nothing right. 504 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: And luckily you didn't take that there's nothing. You were like, 505 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: let me find a way that works for me, and 506 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: you created this blog which was really for yourself and 507 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: now has turned into for so many black girls getting sober. 508 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: Last thing I'll say that I absolutely love. I'm like 509 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: hardcore militant harm reduction approach, and so this concept that 510 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: you have to be completely abstinent or you're not making 511 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: a difference is wrong. For people with severe alcohol use disorder, 512 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: complete abstinence most likely is the right recommendation. But does 513 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: it matter that you cut down from drinking every single 514 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: day to drinking every other day? Yes it matters. Does 515 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: it matter you were making so much effort to make 516 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: that change, Yes it matters. Does it matter that you 517 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: were able to put together three months, Yes matters, And 518 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: we rob people of those successes, and I think it 519 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: poisons the recovery process for people. So I just wanted 520 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: to pull out all of those elements of your story 521 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: that I think are so like people will hear that 522 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: in their own experience. I want them to hear that. 523 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And I you know what I realized. 524 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 2: I realized that like no one knows what goes, No 525 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 2: one knows what's going on in our household, right, So 526 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 2: I think that like when sobriety recovery, sobriety social media 527 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 2: just took off, maybe in twenty twenty. I think like 528 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 2: during the pandemic, it's when it kind of took off, 529 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 2: and you know, there were a lot of folks trying 530 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 2: to now become sobriety influencers, which I need for an influencer. 531 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: But I get it. I get that this is like 532 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 2: a niche that people can tap into. And you know, 533 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 2: they were at a time where like people influencers were passing 534 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 2: away from like overdoses and relapses, and it's like being 535 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 2: on social media portraying one thing, which is they're right. 536 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 2: I get it, like I get it, but they're not 537 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 2: feeling safe or I don't know what they're not what 538 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 2: they're feeling or not feeling, but just not being in 539 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: a space where they're letting us they need help or 540 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,239 Speaker 2: they relapse or they just I'm sorry. I don't think 541 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: relips has to be a part of everyone's story, but 542 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: it's a part of most people's story, especially now in 543 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 2: today's today's world where people are struggling from a post 544 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 2: pinion I shouldn't say post pandemic, but you get like 545 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 2: a post quarantine world. You know, the economy, just mental 546 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 2: health overall has to die. Relapse and slips are a 547 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 2: part of a lot of stories. And I don't say 548 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 2: that to enforce or encourage it, but I'm just like, 549 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 2: you have to be real. No one would know what 550 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 2: I'm going for unless I like literally no one would 551 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 2: know I have a slip or relapse unless I tell them, 552 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 2: how are you going to? Don't live in my apartment? 553 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 2: You don't live with me. So I think that like, yeah, 554 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,239 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess we can go. We could go 555 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 2: and move through the world pretending that people do not relapse. 556 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 2: People and you do not relapse or have slips. But 557 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 2: just as a myself, as an individual, and as a 558 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 2: person who works with so many you know, a whole club, 559 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: and then in the Swakabi community, having talks with people 560 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 2: like you, doctors like you, like you, and then in 561 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 2: conferences I know a lot of people do, especially in 562 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 2: the beginning, do relapse. They do have slips. Hopefully they're 563 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: able to learn from it. But I think pretending that 564 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: like it's uh, you know, make it a declaration that 565 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 2: you want to get sober, and then you just all 566 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 2: it gets sober, It's like, Okay, that's not it's not realistic. 567 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: It is also dangerous. Okay. So I'm gonna go doctory 568 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: and drop a couple of stats again. First step I'm 569 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,719 Speaker 1: gonna drop is seventy five percent of people with addiction recover. 570 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: This is massively important. That means it is not just possible, 571 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: it is probable okay, three out of four people. The 572 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: next statistic is, in the first year of trying to 573 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: get sober, as much as fifty five percent of people 574 00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: experience and relapse of that illness. That's more than half, right, 575 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: So we cannot make people think they are the only 576 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: ones experiencing a slip or a relapse of this illness, 577 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: because that makes people keep it a secret. And the 578 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: reason it's because we value people who are sober, but 579 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: we don't value people who are in active addiction. And 580 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,959 Speaker 1: that's a trash approach, right, Like, we have to value 581 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: people no matter what stage their illness is in. And 582 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: if we can let people know we value them. And 583 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: the safer thing to do is to let somebody know 584 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: when you slip or if your illness relapses, so that 585 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: it doesn't turn back into stage four. I'm going to 586 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: use a cancer metaphor here. It's just as dangerous as 587 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: pretending that breast cancer doesn't relapse. It's just as dangerous 588 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: as pretending that lung cancer doesn't relapse, because yes they do, 589 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: and no, we don't want it for you. And so 590 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: we do everything we know possible that decreases the chance 591 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: of that relapse. But we also surveil. We have you 592 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: doing your monthly breast exams, have you doing your mammogram 593 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: every six months instead of every year. We have you 594 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: doing your colonoscupy every five years instead of every ten. Right, Like, 595 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: let's not pretend. Let's be real about what we know 596 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: about the course of this illness and maximally equip people 597 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: to keep themselves safe. Part of that is being able 598 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: to say I drink. 599 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is so real. Yeah, because that's so real 600 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 2: for a number of reasons. One the success of a 601 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 2: Blaco's club, not only as a club, but like members 602 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 2: saying like, hey, they have two years sober, three years sober, 603 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 2: and thanking me for a freedom club. I freedo this 604 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 2: club when I was still an addiction. So again it's 605 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: like what you're saying is so true, Like you can't 606 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 2: discount people just because they are currently in an addiction 607 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 2: or don't have that many years that folks will deem worthy. 608 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 2: But I would say, like one of the downsides for 609 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: me is that, like, you know, starting sober Blacos club 610 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: and I feel like my addiction, like what I knew 611 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 2: I had an addiction, It all just happened so fast, 612 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 2: and it happened really really fast when like again, my 613 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 2: dreging was always problematic, but from it being an addiction 614 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 2: where I couldn't stop drinking to getting my own help, 615 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 2: like you know, recovering from myself and then being thrown 616 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 2: into service, it really truly did happen fast. So there's 617 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: some people that I sort of tell a Blackco's Club 618 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 2: with who when I mean I started with like they 619 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: were first meeting attendees and they have more years than me. 620 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 2: Because I was not taking care of my of my recovery, 621 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 2: of my sobriety, you know, it just hit me. You know, 622 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 2: I was having a really challenging time. You know, that's 623 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 2: where we had to be scheduled. One of our members 624 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 2: passed away, and it really hit me and hit me 625 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 2: in a way that it's just it's just weird, like 626 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 2: when you're you're on the sobriety journey, this recovery journey. 627 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: So the Blacks Club, you know, the age ranges from 628 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 2: like let's say, like twenties to like sixties, and yeah, 629 00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 2: we do have younger folks and all the folks, but 630 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 2: that's that's like a range of folks meetings who say 631 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 2: their ages. So it's just you know, it was just 632 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 2: so hurtful. This person. I'm never going to see them 633 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 2: online anymore. And this is a person that really, you know, 634 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 2: made it two years sober, really was trying to you know, 635 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 2: even though I felt like she was doing so great, 636 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 2: she was always trying to do better and trying to 637 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 2: improve it. I think it's something that a lot of 638 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 2: black girls like, you know, it's just like you're not 639 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 2: drinking anymore, like you could say you're red and I know, 640 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 2: like we shouldn't settle there, but I feel like for 641 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 2: a lot of folk, and again look at me, like, 642 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 2: I just feel like, you know, for a lot of us, 643 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: it's like that's not enough, not but it is something. 644 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: It's not everything, but it is something, and we tend 645 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 1: to discount it as nothing. 646 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 2: Yes, right, yes, So it wasn't until recently with like 647 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 2: my therapist and I was just telling her like, oh, 648 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 2: I'm struggling like really bad, like really badly, and she 649 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 2: like out, She's like, Kadie, it'sn't someone you've ever had 650 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 2: time to just focus on yourself, focused on your mental 651 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 2: health without like constantly being thrown into work into work, 652 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 2: and even though service like you know, services service it's 653 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 2: still work. And she put it in my head about 654 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,439 Speaker 2: like taking a sabbatical at the end of the year. 655 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 2: I'm just well, because you know, we have a lot 656 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 2: of things coming up, and I'm like, sabbatic goal, Like 657 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 2: I'm not a clergyman. But then she's like, no, she 658 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 2: made sense of it for me. She's like, no, So 659 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 2: backs Club is your ministry and you have been doing 660 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 2: this work since you were an addiction and say, I 661 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 2: guess I want to stay with people my relapse and 662 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 2: we're talking about slips and we're talking about how you 663 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 2: can still be addictionate and help people. And I do 664 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 2: agree with that, agree with that, I believe in that. 665 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 2: But she when it comes to my story, when it 666 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 2: comes to our member's story who just passed away, Kelly, 667 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 2: but it is important, like you said, when you are 668 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 2: having those challenging moments to let people know and then 669 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 2: get the help that you need. And even like the 670 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 2: help may not be what you wanted to be, Like, 671 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 2: I don't w anyone tell me you have to like 672 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 2: take up two months of battle goal. But the truth is, 673 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 2: the more I say that out loud, the more I 674 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 2: share with my friends, and like you, I'm like Oh, 675 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 2: I do need that. Actually I need a. 676 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 1: Well listen, I'll tell you I'm being psychiatric here. So 677 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,479 Speaker 1: as psychiatrists, we listen to the things that people don't say, 678 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: and the order kind of like the thoughts that you 679 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: put next to each other. So you said, I don't 680 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: even know how we got on this. We got on 681 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: this because we were talking about it being safe to 682 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,720 Speaker 1: say when you need help. And then you talked about 683 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: your friend who died, which is an unspoken connection there 684 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 1: that like maybe she needed some sort of help even 685 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: though she was doing great and everything, you know, like 686 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: she needed some sort of help. And then you drew 687 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: an unspoken connection there to your therapist telling you need 688 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: a sabbatical, and it sounds like you're working your way through. 689 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: But what I'm hearing from you, Katie, and it's it's interesting. 690 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you about this other influencer that 691 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 1: is I'll tell you what the threat of connection is is. 692 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you what is your magic 693 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: formula for staying sober? And you started to answer it 694 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 1: a little bit, and it sounds like what you're learning 695 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: is that part of what you may need to add 696 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: to your formula is space for yourself for sure, right, 697 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: it's space for yourself. So my son is seventeen. He's 698 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: an avid trampoline guy. He literally goes to Skyzone every 699 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: single day of the week. He's like taught himself all 700 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: this stuff is funny. He's senior in high school. But 701 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: so he follows this diver influencer on social media. She's 702 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: an extreme high diver, so she dives from like I 703 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: don't even know how know how high this platform is, 704 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: but it's so high that you cannot go in the 705 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: water head first. You go in the water feet first 706 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: from your dives because it's so high. And he was 707 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: showing me her Instagram feed the other day and it 708 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: said I am taking it didn't say Sabbattlekle, I'm taking 709 00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: a break. For two straight years, I have been diving 710 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: and posting every single day, and for my mental health 711 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 1: and my physical health, I need to take a break. 712 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: And then two days later, this podcast or Norah macan Ernie, 713 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: I love her. Her podcast is terrible. Thanks for asking, 714 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: I'm taking a break, right. And so service is beautiful 715 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: and it fills our cups. It is also pouring out 716 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,839 Speaker 1: of your cup. And I think people more than understand 717 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: when you need to take a break. So I just 718 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: want to validate you and I want to encourage you, 719 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: whether it's a two month sabbatical or some other strategy. 720 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: What your unconscious mind just told me is that you 721 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: need to create some space for. 722 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 2: Cakes and fire, and I work moved towards that. Like 723 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 2: we got a board. You know, we have a new 724 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 2: board of very skilled people, so I'm hoping by the 725 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 2: end of the year they can you know, take off. 726 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 2: You know, they understand the ways and the lands or 727 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 2: SBGC because you know, we host meetings just you know, 728 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 2: anyone looking for the support that meets a little c plug. 729 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 2: We host four support meetings on Wednesday. We're working with 730 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 2: a recovered man in Kenya who hosts men's meeting and 731 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 2: community meetings for anyone regardless of their gender. And the 732 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 2: other meetings. We have a queer meeting where we have 733 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 2: two meetings to specifically excuse me, for black girls and 734 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 2: black women. You know, we have our mentorship program. We 735 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 2: have a mentorship program. We do in person events. You know, 736 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 2: we have a Facebook group of about six one point 737 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 2: five thousand members I think maybe one point six on 738 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 2: social media. We have a blog, we have a podcast, 739 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 2: our newsletter. So there's a lot of support out there 740 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 2: for folks. I think, like you said, Nick, sorry, I 741 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 2: want to call you to. 742 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:48,879 Speaker 1: Go are you an Joan? 743 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:55,720 Speaker 2: No? All right, sorry, So there's a lot of support 744 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 2: there and I just want people to know that again, 745 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,399 Speaker 2: I just get always inspired for so just like you know, 746 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,839 Speaker 2: SBGC SPGC saved their lives that they wouldn't even have 747 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 2: like for and from days if it wasn't for the club. 748 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 2: And it's so you know, it's a it's a lot 749 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 2: for me to hear. It's a lot because it's like 750 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 2: I get it, and I think, yeah, I'm just under 751 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,479 Speaker 2: there by saying yeah, yeah. But I wanted to thank 752 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 2: you for your previous comments because I swear like I 753 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 2: not my experiences with like therapists, especially during my addiction 754 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,839 Speaker 2: when I couldn't afford to pay for private therapy, if 755 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 2: that makes sense, so I would have to like be 756 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 2: with the thought. And I don't think that really matters, 757 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,959 Speaker 2: but I think it sometimes in my experience it does. 758 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 2: Like I'm able to just say stuff and and now 759 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 2: me and my rapists are just chatting about what we 760 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 2: did on Saturday, like we're just laughing and I'm able, 761 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 2: and I don't know if you want to call it 762 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 2: the New Yorker me, if you want to call it 763 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 2: the lawyer and me, I'm able to say things. But 764 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 2: in a way we're people just really are not picking 765 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 2: up what I'm saying and just gate through. And I've 766 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 2: always said that, like, you know, that's another thing, reflexible, 767 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 2: Bible's club, our values of fearness and equity. When people 768 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,280 Speaker 2: are like, you know, you don't need money to recover, 769 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,279 Speaker 2: I'm like, are you out of your mind? Yes? You do? 770 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 2: Like you know what I mean? Like, I can definitely 771 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 2: tell the difference. And I don't want to say it's 772 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 2: the education. I really don't. I think that, like, you know, 773 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 2: the therapists that I was worth seeing, counselors I was 774 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,200 Speaker 2: seeing while I was in an addiction, they had so 775 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 2: many clients and so many patients, and so I don't 776 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 2: think it's the education level, but there is something. And 777 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 2: I recognize the difference of what I'm paying a therapist 778 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty dollars a session in comparison to 779 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 2: you know, State Randal, state the government led it's a different. 780 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the system, and it's the time that's available 781 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 1: to connect with people. It's a real thing, and I 782 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: hate that for us. 783 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 2: I hate that, like I do hate, I really just 784 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 2: it just breaks my heart. So I think that to say, 785 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 2: I feel like I've been rambling and again I haven't 786 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 2: been able to eat or deep water. 787 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: But you have not been rambling. You have not been rambling. 788 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: This has been beautiful. It is over. That's how time 789 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 1: flies when you're like dropping knowledge on people. So let 790 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 1: me ask you this last question, Katie. First of all, 791 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on here. This is incredible. 792 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: I would love to figure out a way to magnify 793 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 1: sober black girl clubs work. Let's just figure out how 794 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 1: we do that. But this is a question I ask everybody. 795 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 1: I try to remember to give people heads up at 796 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: the beginning. I did not give you a heads up, 797 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 1: so you's gonna have to go off the dome. The 798 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,719 Speaker 1: name of the book is Unaddiction. It is undoing what 799 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: we think we know about addiction that's hurting people. Oh sorry, unlearning, 800 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 1: unlearning what we think we know, undoing the stigma that 801 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,919 Speaker 1: is killing people, and uncovering the conversations that we need 802 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,360 Speaker 1: to have to make a difference. So your parting words. 803 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: If there's just one thing and I want to talk 804 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: scifically to black girls and black women, if there is 805 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: one thing that you want black girls and black women 806 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: to unlearn, undo or conversation to uncover, what would it be. 807 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 2: I think we need to unlearn the practice of doing, 808 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 2: of producing, of exerting. I truly think it's killing us, 809 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 2: like when I was slapped on these last couple of months. 810 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 2: It's killing us. Yeah, feeling like we're not enough even 811 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 2: when we have overcome some of the worst possible things. 812 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want you to play that back for yourself, Okay, Katie, Yeah, Yeah, 813 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 1: you are enough. You are doing enough. You have done enough. 814 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: I followed the NAT Ministry on Instagram. I don't know 815 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,320 Speaker 1: if you know it is. Their tagline is rest is Revolutionary. 816 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're reading that book in our Tuesday cersover meeting 817 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 2: that one of our members, Pastcilla. I think she's a 818 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 2: therapist as well or counselor. She hosts that meeting. So yeah, 819 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,439 Speaker 2: we're currently reading that book right now our Tuesday meeting. 820 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 1: Thank you. I heard your tears, which is how I 821 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,760 Speaker 1: know you felt it so deeply. I felt I felt 822 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: it for you, and so I know that you need 823 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 1: some rest. Yeah, thank you for coming on here. All right, 824 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 1: y'all check out Sober Black Girls Club as you can hear. 825 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 1: Katie is amazing and has created this community which I'm 826 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: super proud of. So okay, let's not let this be 827 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: the last time. Let's stay connected for sure. Thank you, 828 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,360 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for tuning in. And if you 829 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: like this episode, please check out my book on addiction, 830 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 1: Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, available 831 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: at Barnes Andnoble, Bookshop, dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon, 832 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: and wherever books are sold. If you liked this episode, 833 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: please share it with someone think may need to hear it. Also, 834 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 1: please subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star 835 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,839 Speaker 1: review that helps us reach any and everyone who may 836 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 1: be looking for support in the face of addiction.