WEBVTT - Inside the Most Important Microchip Factory in the World 0:00:15.304 --> 0:00:15.824 Pushkin. 0:00:18.504 --> 0:00:21.264 I'm Virginia Hiffernan, and I wrote I saw the Face 0:00:21.344 --> 0:00:24.584 of God in a semiconductor factory for Wired, and it's 0:00:24.664 --> 0:00:25.504 the story of the week. 0:00:26.784 --> 0:00:29.504 When I was thirteen, I got an Apple two E 0:00:29.704 --> 0:00:32.984 computer from my bar Mitzvah. Every so often I'd have 0:00:33.024 --> 0:00:35.504 to pop up in the back and insert a new 0:00:35.824 --> 0:00:39.024 memory card or some kind of expansion card, and every 0:00:39.024 --> 0:00:42.064 time I did it, I thought to myself, these are 0:00:42.104 --> 0:00:44.224 the skills that are going to set me up when 0:00:44.264 --> 0:00:47.664 I go to Stanford and spend four years using this 0:00:47.744 --> 0:00:53.704 thing to write humor articles. Those expansion cards, the chips 0:00:53.744 --> 0:00:56.424 that were part of them, with their tiny bits of 0:00:56.584 --> 0:00:59.944 metal soldered onto a green board, were just a total 0:01:00.104 --> 0:01:03.344 mystery to me. They look like someone from shop class 0:01:03.424 --> 0:01:07.544 with teeny tiny hands had gotten stoned and made a maze. 0:01:08.224 --> 0:01:10.704 They were at technolog I gave no more thought to 0:01:11.104 --> 0:01:14.224 than the engine of a car. I didn't ever think 0:01:14.224 --> 0:01:17.864 about how impressive it was to make something so intricate, 0:01:18.344 --> 0:01:22.544 and could never have imagined how infinitesimal those chips would 0:01:22.584 --> 0:01:27.504 become in like a few decades, so tiny that the 0:01:27.624 --> 0:01:32.304 human eye can't even perceive them, how they'd be inside 0:01:32.504 --> 0:01:38.344 everything driving like every part of our lives. The reason 0:01:38.384 --> 0:01:41.664 I was never able to imagine any of this is 0:01:41.704 --> 0:01:44.544 because those kids in shop class would never share their weed. 0:01:51.464 --> 0:01:52.504 Writing is hard. 0:01:52.704 --> 0:01:56.024 Who's got that kind of time when you're already busy 0:01:56.144 --> 0:01:59.224 trying to bege'll stand so it turns on a mic. 0:01:59.544 --> 0:02:01.104 Maybe the twodle is enough. 0:02:01.104 --> 0:02:03.024 Because a journalist trand. 0:02:02.704 --> 0:02:07.464 Has got in that toole time outist single story just 0:02:07.584 --> 0:02:15.344 listen to smart People's conversation. Film with Information is the story. 0:02:14.984 --> 0:02:27.384 Of nearly all of the high end micro chips in 0:02:27.424 --> 0:02:30.224 the world. The ones we depend on for our phones 0:02:30.304 --> 0:02:35.024 and cars and Fauci's vaccinations are manufactured in this unassuming 0:02:35.064 --> 0:02:38.464 factory in a small city in Taiwan. Taiwan's in a 0:02:38.624 --> 0:02:41.464 very vulnerable position because China claims the country as part 0:02:41.504 --> 0:02:45.064 of its own. The situation so delicate the US won't 0:02:45.104 --> 0:02:48.744 even recognize it as a country. So Taiwan has found 0:02:48.784 --> 0:02:52.424 a strategy to use this factory to help protect itself 0:02:52.424 --> 0:02:56.264 from China. The chip factory is so key the Taiwan's 0:02:56.264 --> 0:03:00.344 survival that very few people outside of the company get 0:03:00.344 --> 0:03:03.784 to go inside. Virginia Heffernan is one of the few 0:03:03.824 --> 0:03:06.544 reporters who got to visit and she wrote about it 0:03:06.584 --> 0:03:10.624 for Wired. Okay, so you're listening to this podcast that's 0:03:10.784 --> 0:03:13.704 clearly inferior to mine, but you hear a quote that 0:03:13.744 --> 0:03:15.824 gets you interested in microships. 0:03:16.064 --> 0:03:18.384 Yeah. I mean, let's not even bother to name the podcast. 0:03:18.424 --> 0:03:20.864 This is a minor, minor podcast that may or may 0:03:20.904 --> 0:03:23.704 not be from a major name at the New York Times, 0:03:23.744 --> 0:03:28.344 and he was interviewing the economic historian Adam Twos, and 0:03:28.424 --> 0:03:34.984 Twos started to say, the fabs in Taiwan don't just 0:03:35.224 --> 0:03:38.224 protect us from China and serve as the silicon shield. 0:03:38.944 --> 0:03:41.184 To be inside the FABS is to be up against 0:03:41.224 --> 0:03:42.144 the face of God. 0:03:44.344 --> 0:03:47.424 Our ability to do this stuff at nanoscale is, you know, 0:03:47.704 --> 0:03:49.984 us up against the face of God in a sense. 0:03:50.424 --> 0:03:51.744 What was he talking about? 0:03:52.184 --> 0:03:56.344 Right? So I was like rewind rewind rewind rewind because 0:03:56.464 --> 0:03:58.544 what the hell the word in there that I was 0:03:58.744 --> 0:04:01.544 I was missing a word that he was likening to 0:04:01.584 --> 0:04:05.664 the face of God, and that word was fabs. FABS 0:04:06.304 --> 0:04:09.024 What is that? It turns out it's short for fabricators. 0:04:09.864 --> 0:04:14.464 So these are the factories that make microchips in Taiwan. 0:04:14.824 --> 0:04:17.384 How in the freaking world could you be up against 0:04:17.424 --> 0:04:19.984 the face of God to go in any factory, I 0:04:20.024 --> 0:04:20.704 had to find out. 0:04:21.184 --> 0:04:24.624 All right, So you're interested in seeing microships, which are 0:04:25.344 --> 0:04:26.424 used for everything. 0:04:26.144 --> 0:04:29.224 Right, They are in virtually everything with an on off switch, 0:04:29.344 --> 0:04:32.264 and a lot of other things too. So they're in 0:04:32.624 --> 0:04:36.944 nuclear weapons, they're in our cars, they're in planes, of course, 0:04:37.064 --> 0:04:42.304 and they're in every single iPhone, every single iPad, every 0:04:42.344 --> 0:04:43.344 single mac. 0:04:43.824 --> 0:04:46.624 Okay, so you're interested in learning more about microchips. Who 0:04:46.704 --> 0:04:47.904 do you call first? 0:04:48.584 --> 0:04:51.504 That's a good question. So I call my brother in law, 0:04:51.624 --> 0:04:53.624 who is a chip designer, and he. 0:04:53.624 --> 0:04:56.264 Was you should already know about chips then, right. 0:04:56.504 --> 0:04:59.864 Yeah, except that when I met him, I just registered. 0:04:59.904 --> 0:05:02.504 He was an engineer, he worked at IBM. He could 0:05:02.544 --> 0:05:06.304 build his own Roku device like he just tacked one together. 0:05:06.664 --> 0:05:11.464 So that was sort of what I had in my mind, somewhere. 0:05:10.824 --> 0:05:11.744 To save thirty bucks. 0:05:11.744 --> 0:05:14.304 By the way, such a great way to save thirty dollars. 0:05:14.904 --> 0:05:17.264 But I finally decided. I called them up and said 0:05:17.264 --> 0:05:20.544 what are fabs? And he said, ugh, do you really 0:05:20.584 --> 0:05:22.864 want to know this? And I said, Adam Twos said 0:05:22.904 --> 0:05:26.184 it's like being up against the face of God. And 0:05:26.264 --> 0:05:30.424 Mark said, you know, it kind of is, and he 0:05:30.504 --> 0:05:33.424 explained to me, you know that Intel had lost a 0:05:33.424 --> 0:05:38.344 lot of ground to this Taiwanese giant known boringly as TSMC, 0:05:38.544 --> 0:05:40.904 the Taiwanese semiconductor manufacturing company. 0:05:41.064 --> 0:05:43.984 That's the name they chose to go with TSMC. Yes, 0:05:44.184 --> 0:05:46.144 it's no Google. It's kind of the opposite. It's like 0:05:46.184 --> 0:05:48.744 trying to be as like uninteresting as possible. 0:05:48.384 --> 0:05:53.784 And that's for a reason. They're like a very quiet company. 0:05:54.344 --> 0:05:58.104 They just make chips and you never see their name 0:05:58.184 --> 0:05:58.664 on anything. 0:05:58.744 --> 0:06:00.744 Do the people that hire them to make chips want 0:06:00.784 --> 0:06:01.504 them to be quiet? 0:06:01.864 --> 0:06:04.664 Yeah, Well there's a lot of secrecy involved. So they 0:06:04.664 --> 0:06:07.824 have Apple as their customer, but they don't sell any 0:06:07.824 --> 0:06:12.624 finished products. They just create the chips in collaboration with 0:06:12.744 --> 0:06:15.344 the companies. It's like a printing press saying to you, 0:06:15.704 --> 0:06:17.344 I'm not going to steal the plot of your novel. 0:06:17.464 --> 0:06:20.144 All you need to do is like give us that thing. 0:06:20.184 --> 0:06:22.024 We're going to print it and then you can sell it. 0:06:22.144 --> 0:06:23.584 How big a company is TSMC. 0:06:23.904 --> 0:06:26.904 It is often ranked as the tenth biggest company in 0:06:26.944 --> 0:06:29.384 the world. Lots of people call it the most powerful 0:06:29.424 --> 0:06:33.704 company in the world. TSMC is bigger than Meta, It's 0:06:33.744 --> 0:06:35.024 sometimes bigger than Tesla. 0:06:35.584 --> 0:06:39.704 So you want to go to this incredibly secretive factory. 0:06:40.384 --> 0:06:41.704 Do they let journalists in? 0:06:42.704 --> 0:06:46.944 They mostly don't. So I asked the beleaguered PR person there. 0:06:47.184 --> 0:06:48.984 I told him about the Face of God thing, and 0:06:49.064 --> 0:06:52.344 I just said, look, I'm not looking for state secrets 0:06:52.424 --> 0:06:56.944 and I'm not looking for corporate secrets. That said, I 0:06:57.104 --> 0:06:59.744 am looking for this kind of religious experience that I've 0:06:59.744 --> 0:07:03.704 been led to believe exists there, and that's my pitch 0:07:03.744 --> 0:07:08.944 to you. What he said was no, like that. I 0:07:09.224 --> 0:07:12.104 was like, I'm hearing I have a chance, you know, 0:07:12.264 --> 0:07:15.024 like that, So I'm going to call you back, and 0:07:15.064 --> 0:07:17.664 basically he rejected me. He rejected me like, you know, 0:07:17.704 --> 0:07:19.784 three times, like as if you know you're trying to 0:07:19.784 --> 0:07:24.184 convert to Judaism or something. Go away, go away, go away? Okay? 0:07:24.624 --> 0:07:26.504 Is how that is the rule. When someone wants to 0:07:26.504 --> 0:07:28.464 convert to Judaism. The rabbi is supposed to say no 0:07:28.544 --> 0:07:29.664 three times. 0:07:29.464 --> 0:07:31.544 Which I did, by the way, so I've. 0:07:31.704 --> 0:07:34.704 Been Wow, you got past the rabbis, you might as 0:07:34.744 --> 0:07:36.464 well try and get past the publicist. 0:07:36.784 --> 0:07:37.384 That's right. 0:07:37.904 --> 0:07:41.984 And so you fly to Taiwan and it's not in Taipei, right, 0:07:41.984 --> 0:07:43.104 where is this factory. 0:07:43.184 --> 0:07:45.584 It's in a place called sin Chu. It's like a 0:07:45.784 --> 0:07:49.984 small city that's mostly a very dull office park. 0:07:50.344 --> 0:07:51.824 Does it take you a long time to get there? 0:07:52.184 --> 0:07:55.224 It was an eighteen hour flight. Eighteen hours is actually 0:07:55.304 --> 0:07:57.904 the longest seven to seventy seven can stay in the air. 0:07:58.304 --> 0:08:00.744 Why was it? Why should they not have my bags 0:08:00.784 --> 0:08:03.784 when I landed? Because when we got off the plane, 0:08:03.864 --> 0:08:06.984 they just said Ukraine War, Ukraine War, Ukraine War. There 0:08:07.064 --> 0:08:09.944 was Russian airspace that had to be or of navigated. 0:08:10.344 --> 0:08:12.624 It was extremely interesting to see how Taiwan had been 0:08:12.664 --> 0:08:14.944 affected by it because they see themselves as like a 0:08:14.984 --> 0:08:21.144 sister state to Ukraine. Well, they are neighbors to a 0:08:21.304 --> 0:08:25.864 giant nuclear power that wants to annex it, so even 0:08:25.904 --> 0:08:28.304 more than Ukraine. It's in a vulnerable place. 0:08:28.424 --> 0:08:34.104 And part of their strategy to stay safe and not 0:08:34.224 --> 0:08:37.184 be taken over by China. Is this very factory that 0:08:37.224 --> 0:08:41.184 you're going to Does this happen organically or is this plant? 0:08:41.544 --> 0:08:46.024 So Taiwan realized that it was making itself indispensable to 0:08:46.184 --> 0:08:47.864 no one with umbrellas. 0:08:48.064 --> 0:08:50.384 They made a ton of umbrellas, right, like every. 0:08:50.344 --> 0:08:54.944 Umbrella like the world. Yeah, they monopolize umbrellas. I think 0:08:55.064 --> 0:08:58.144 till the late seventies, and just like the industrial Midwest, 0:08:58.504 --> 0:09:01.064 they just started losing stuff to China, and all these 0:09:01.104 --> 0:09:04.584 towns started wondering what to do. So they just retrained 0:09:05.064 --> 0:09:08.744 with incredible engineering schools and it worked. They became the 0:09:08.784 --> 0:09:12.344 great engineers in the world. But so when they turned 0:09:12.344 --> 0:09:15.704 themselves to high tech, it was like this very deliberate 0:09:15.784 --> 0:09:20.384 effort to make the island of Taiwan indispensable to the 0:09:20.384 --> 0:09:22.664 world and especially to the United States, so we would 0:09:22.704 --> 0:09:27.304 protect them from Chinese aggression. And TSMC itself has the 0:09:27.384 --> 0:09:29.624 nickname the Sacred Mountain that protects Taiwan. 0:09:29.984 --> 0:09:34.504 The Sacred Mountain that protects Taiwan. Yes, when we come back, 0:09:34.944 --> 0:09:37.504 Virginia is going to put on a very cool outfit 0:09:37.784 --> 0:09:41.824 and finally get into that factory. But first our advertisers 0:09:41.864 --> 0:09:52.984 have some crappy, non Taiwanese umbrellas to sell you. So 0:09:53.384 --> 0:09:55.304 how are these chips actually made? 0:09:55.624 --> 0:10:00.384 So the first semiconductor factory, they were putting like, you know, 0:10:00.464 --> 0:10:04.744 two transistors together, so you know, like a little column 0:10:04.864 --> 0:10:06.744 with a lot of wires around it, and then it 0:10:06.784 --> 0:10:08.584 would connect to another little column with a lot of 0:10:08.584 --> 0:10:12.544 wires around, right, But they realized the two columns could 0:10:12.584 --> 0:10:16.184 conduct electricity between them. If they just both sat on something, 0:10:16.184 --> 0:10:18.024 they didn't need to be wired together. They could just 0:10:18.464 --> 0:10:21.584 sit on a material that was conductive and then they 0:10:21.584 --> 0:10:24.104 could communicate with each other. Right, So they take out 0:10:24.144 --> 0:10:26.904 the wires and they just put them on a flat thing, 0:10:27.144 --> 0:10:30.264 a chip. The material that it sat on didn't need 0:10:30.304 --> 0:10:35.384 to be either entirely conductive or entirely insulating. It needed 0:10:35.424 --> 0:10:39.944 to have options. So that's why they get a semiconductor material, 0:10:39.984 --> 0:10:42.664 and silicon works really well for that. All right, So 0:10:42.704 --> 0:10:46.144 they have two transistors, let's say, sitting on a piece 0:10:46.184 --> 0:10:50.664 of silicon. They slowly, slowly were realizing that they could 0:10:50.664 --> 0:10:53.184 make these things smaller so they could get more processing 0:10:53.224 --> 0:10:54.944 power on the same chip. So then they get it 0:10:54.984 --> 0:10:57.624 to four. Say, then they get it to eight. 0:10:57.824 --> 0:10:59.864 How big is a chip that they're getting eight trans. 0:10:59.824 --> 0:11:01.984 So these chips are maybe the size of a quarter 0:11:02.584 --> 0:11:06.064 okay at the time, right, And the way that they're 0:11:06.064 --> 0:11:11.064 putting them on is first they're just fixing little metal things. 0:11:11.624 --> 0:11:15.584 But then they realize that they can make these transistors 0:11:15.904 --> 0:11:20.144 with lithography. So they start carving with not knives and wax, 0:11:20.304 --> 0:11:24.944 but with light. And the light they use is first 0:11:24.984 --> 0:11:28.424 in the visible range. It's like sort of slower wavelengths, 0:11:28.944 --> 0:11:32.104 and then they start using light further up the spectrum 0:11:32.224 --> 0:11:36.544 with like tighter, smaller wavelengths, so ultraviolet light and then 0:11:36.584 --> 0:11:41.544 extreme ultraviolet light till now you know they're carving on 0:11:41.664 --> 0:11:45.944 basically material that's like four atoms thick, and that's how 0:11:45.984 --> 0:11:51.224 you can get from a piece of silicon to Gmail Instagram. 0:11:51.464 --> 0:11:54.504 Does it strike you at some point that you've come 0:11:54.624 --> 0:11:56.864 all this way to see something that's too small to 0:11:56.864 --> 0:11:59.064 be seen? It did. 0:12:01.544 --> 0:12:04.584 Michael, the pr PR person kept being like, there's not 0:12:04.704 --> 0:12:07.184 much to see in there, and I finally was like, 0:12:07.704 --> 0:12:10.184 I mean even I know that, I realized I won't 0:12:10.224 --> 0:12:10.744 see much. 0:12:10.904 --> 0:12:13.504 Okay, so you finally are going to get to enter 0:12:13.584 --> 0:12:17.064 this factory. Are you nervous in advance of this tour? 0:12:17.384 --> 0:12:19.744 So the thing I was nervous about was like I 0:12:19.824 --> 0:12:23.624 kept picturing Woody Allen and Annie Hall like sneezing into 0:12:23.664 --> 0:12:27.064 the cocaine and blowing cocaine. Yeah, I thought like I 0:12:27.144 --> 0:12:29.224 might do that, but it would be like with electrons, 0:12:29.504 --> 0:12:33.304 you know, I would be like, oh, all the protons. 0:12:33.904 --> 0:12:36.864 Like a clumsy American walking into this like perfect space 0:12:36.864 --> 0:12:38.344 and you're gonna knock exactly. 0:12:38.504 --> 0:12:40.264 So I just I really wanted to, like when I 0:12:40.344 --> 0:12:43.704 moved through, to like get my hands washed, move into 0:12:43.744 --> 0:12:47.264 this incredibly clean room. I didn't want to contaminate it 0:12:47.344 --> 0:12:49.264 with my horrible American ways. 0:12:49.624 --> 0:12:51.504 Do you walk in there and like that outfit that 0:12:51.544 --> 0:12:53.944 they need when they want to steal et? Do you 0:12:53.984 --> 0:12:56.384 have the full right? 0:12:56.464 --> 0:12:59.264 I had to put on a bunny suit gown up 0:12:59.304 --> 0:13:02.824 they call they called a bunny suit, and no one 0:13:02.984 --> 0:13:06.064 is like thinks of a cooler name for it. 0:13:06.064 --> 0:13:07.864 It's just like, look at all like a bunny suit, which, 0:13:07.864 --> 0:13:11.264 because it's white, it's a spaceman suit. 0:13:11.344 --> 0:13:12.104 It's a good point. 0:13:12.224 --> 0:13:13.744 Is it hard to walk around in that gown? Or 0:13:13.824 --> 0:13:14.864 things are mine? You know? 0:13:14.904 --> 0:13:17.904 It's like a super sweaty raincoat on all parts of 0:13:17.944 --> 0:13:21.624 you and the COVID mask. So these are clean rooms. 0:13:21.784 --> 0:13:27.104 So if we're breathing an infinite number of dust particles 0:13:27.184 --> 0:13:31.384 per cubic yard of air, it's about one hundred particles 0:13:31.904 --> 0:13:34.184 in this place. I was like, oh, does a piece 0:13:34.224 --> 0:13:36.704 of dust ever get in the machinery? And they looked 0:13:36.744 --> 0:13:39.064 at me blankly, because what they're worried about is like 0:13:39.224 --> 0:13:43.704 a particle of neon gas gunning on there wait. 0:13:43.504 --> 0:13:45.424 So what does that feel like? You're in the cleanest 0:13:45.464 --> 0:13:47.344 air you'll ever be in in your whole life. 0:13:47.744 --> 0:13:53.064 Exactly, it felt a little blander like. It turns out, 0:13:53.104 --> 0:13:55.784 I think that like the dust we breathe feels like 0:13:55.904 --> 0:13:59.904 seasoning or something to me. But the clarity from what 0:13:59.944 --> 0:14:04.984 I could see was amazing, Like that felt near religious, 0:14:05.104 --> 0:14:07.704 Like it felt like a veil had been lifted or 0:14:07.744 --> 0:14:09.064 scales had fallen from my eye. 0:14:09.264 --> 0:14:11.744 You mean visually the room just ye different. 0:14:11.944 --> 0:14:15.104 Yes, visually the room looked different. Like the main impression 0:14:15.104 --> 0:14:17.064 is that it's white. It's basically a bunch of just 0:14:17.104 --> 0:14:20.704 like white churning machines that could be just like giant 0:14:21.304 --> 0:14:26.104 old Xerox machines or something. And you're just sensitive to 0:14:26.144 --> 0:14:29.504 the fact that these tiny, tiny transistors are being etched 0:14:29.584 --> 0:14:33.464 on atoms with light somehow in the machines. But I 0:14:33.504 --> 0:14:37.144 went in and I suddenly thought, what a moving human 0:14:37.184 --> 0:14:41.824 aspiration to try to make things immaculate. Like I sort 0:14:41.864 --> 0:14:44.384 of started to cry while I was walking around, like 0:14:44.424 --> 0:14:49.824 my eyes missed it up, and I thought, tears are 0:14:49.944 --> 0:14:53.704 so contaminating. It just seems like human cells are just 0:14:53.984 --> 0:14:58.024 kind of just they like besmirch everything. They touch, you know, 0:14:58.064 --> 0:15:00.584 I was very sensitive to like did I have COVID 0:15:00.904 --> 0:15:04.544 microbes in my lungs? So I was thinking about all that, 0:15:04.584 --> 0:15:06.784 and then I was thinking about the design of a 0:15:06.864 --> 0:15:11.864 hospital to be in germ free, to be immaculate. And 0:15:11.904 --> 0:15:15.784 then at once it seemed to me not just a hospital, 0:15:15.824 --> 0:15:18.464 but like a nicke you, like a place where like 0:15:19.344 --> 0:15:26.584 little tiny precious bodies were between life and whatever comes 0:15:26.624 --> 0:15:30.864 before life. So these tiny tiny transistors that are made 0:15:31.264 --> 0:15:36.264 etched on atoms by it's incredible art are just in 0:15:36.304 --> 0:15:38.704 there fighting for their lives. Some of them don't make 0:15:38.784 --> 0:15:42.624 it because they get some kind of contamination. And they're 0:15:42.744 --> 0:15:46.984 the product of this extraordinary human collaboration made possible by 0:15:47.664 --> 0:15:52.264 the like corniest values of the Enlightenment that like science 0:15:52.304 --> 0:15:56.424 and art progressed together. And I just thought, we all 0:15:56.504 --> 0:15:59.024 are like almost holding our breath because we want them 0:15:59.064 --> 0:16:03.144 to live so much. And the physicists here, and the 0:16:03.184 --> 0:16:06.344 engineers here, and the technicians here, and the operators here 0:16:06.584 --> 0:16:10.584 and even me are just so in tested in making 0:16:10.864 --> 0:16:12.664 this project continue. 0:16:12.944 --> 0:16:15.024 I'm starting to see what the face of God means. 0:16:15.064 --> 0:16:18.304 It's like humans are not meant to be able to 0:16:18.424 --> 0:16:21.944 like understand the vastness of the universe or the tininess 0:16:21.984 --> 0:16:25.224 of an atom. And in this case, people are messing 0:16:26.264 --> 0:16:30.664 with things that humans can't see. And so that is 0:16:30.704 --> 0:16:33.704 like getting into a realm, way beyond where we should be. 0:16:33.864 --> 0:16:35.224 Is that what the face of God means? 0:16:35.424 --> 0:16:40.144 That is absolutely what I came to understand that you 0:16:40.384 --> 0:16:44.584 it is crazy. You start to see the effects of atoms. 0:16:44.784 --> 0:16:49.824 Sounds like of these maternal feelings about these microchips, which 0:16:49.864 --> 0:16:54.984 I kind of get. And at a time when there's COVID, 0:16:55.264 --> 0:16:59.904 when democracy is in trouble, it must feel like you're 0:16:59.944 --> 0:17:03.904 walking into the last room with the hopes of humanity 0:17:03.944 --> 0:17:05.064 that you've grown up with. 0:17:06.224 --> 0:17:10.624 I mean, yes, I feel like I was standing there thinking, like, 0:17:11.224 --> 0:17:13.744 what a beautiful system. I was just inventing it in 0:17:13.784 --> 0:17:16.664 my head and thinking, and it's a protection against autocracy, 0:17:16.704 --> 0:17:20.464 which stifles wisdom and stifles innovation and development and progress. 0:17:20.744 --> 0:17:24.584 And I just was so delighted with my master ideology. 0:17:24.624 --> 0:17:26.344 And then all of a sudden I realized I had 0:17:26.504 --> 0:17:30.984 just reinvented neoliberalism. 0:17:31.104 --> 0:17:34.144 Okay, as cool as all this is, it's a factory, right, Like, 0:17:34.224 --> 0:17:35.824 are people happy who work there? 0:17:35.984 --> 0:17:39.024 If you look at glassdoor, you'll see that not everyone 0:17:39.064 --> 0:17:43.224 loves it. They're on call far too much, they're exhausted. 0:17:44.024 --> 0:17:47.384 I was trying to find out why engineers would go 0:17:47.424 --> 0:17:51.024 to work at TSMC since they probably could go to Google. There. 0:17:51.144 --> 0:17:55.224 You know, it's like special, like nap rooms plus massages, 0:17:55.224 --> 0:17:58.064 plus aromatherapy plus pecon crusted rockfish. 0:17:58.264 --> 0:17:59.904 Wait, what's lunch like at TSMC. 0:18:00.104 --> 0:18:02.304 Well, you can get ten percent off at Burger King 0:18:02.544 --> 0:18:06.904 and seven eleven. So never let them say that TSMC 0:18:07.104 --> 0:18:10.664 doesn't spoil its employees. But the work itself is so extraordinary. 0:18:10.824 --> 0:18:14.944 I mean, you're you're etching on Adams. If you're drawn 0:18:14.984 --> 0:18:17.104 to engineering. This is the greatest job in the world. 0:18:17.184 --> 0:18:19.064 It's a chance to do it at the highest level. 0:18:19.104 --> 0:18:21.224 It's the chance to do it for your country, for 0:18:21.304 --> 0:18:23.984 the promise of democracy, for the further it's of progress. 0:18:24.104 --> 0:18:26.624 You're like basically treated like thank you for your service 0:18:26.784 --> 0:18:28.584 as you walk around the country. Like one thing they 0:18:28.584 --> 0:18:33.704 say is girls don't like TSMC engineers, but their mothers do, Like, oh. 0:18:33.584 --> 0:18:35.384 That was me. That was always And I thought it 0:18:35.384 --> 0:18:37.984 would change when I got older, because I thought like, oh, 0:18:38.024 --> 0:18:41.024 everyone's mom thinks, you know that their daughter should date me. 0:18:41.024 --> 0:18:44.424 Eventually I'll get old enough or I'm dating moms. But 0:18:44.464 --> 0:18:46.064 then I got old enough and it was just like 0:18:46.144 --> 0:18:50.664 their moms still approved of me. There's no oh my gosh, 0:18:50.944 --> 0:18:51.904 turtles all the way down. 0:18:52.024 --> 0:18:54.824 Yeah, maybe that's go. What's going on with TSMC too? 0:18:55.464 --> 0:18:58.744 But your country respects you? How about that? 0:18:58.944 --> 0:19:01.944 Screw that? So, but are they like Silicon Valley bros 0:19:01.984 --> 0:19:05.544 who like spend their money in splashy ways or Warren 0:19:05.584 --> 0:19:07.624 Buffett style, like not showing off with their money. 0:19:07.784 --> 0:19:10.384 They don't. It's not not showing off, but also that 0:19:10.704 --> 0:19:14.464 the great way to like spend your time is I 0:19:14.504 --> 0:19:19.464 mean tennis chess. You know, they're billionaires and they roll 0:19:19.544 --> 0:19:22.504 up their sleeves and like serve soup through their churches. 0:19:22.744 --> 0:19:27.624 And yeah, Joe Biden has made this whole idea of 0:19:28.064 --> 0:19:31.824 democracy and chips part of a plan. How did that work? 0:19:32.464 --> 0:19:35.184 In twenty twenty two the Chips and Science Act, and 0:19:35.264 --> 0:19:40.464 Keith Krock, who was in the State Department, heavily spearheaded 0:19:40.464 --> 0:19:45.584 this effort. It onshore TSMC fabs to the US, and 0:19:45.624 --> 0:19:49.184 one of them, in Phoenix, is slated to open in 0:19:49.224 --> 0:19:51.344 the fall. I think, why. 0:19:51.224 --> 0:19:52.824 Would you want them in the US if the whole 0:19:52.864 --> 0:19:54.224 point was to protect Taiwan. 0:19:54.464 --> 0:19:56.664 Yeah, why indeed would you want them in the US 0:19:56.824 --> 0:19:58.544 because you don't want the US to be like, oh 0:19:58.584 --> 0:20:00.504 we can all we can just make them here. So 0:20:00.824 --> 0:20:02.784 you know, we're cutting you loose, Taiwan and leaving you 0:20:02.824 --> 0:20:04.504 at the mercy of China. We're not going to protect you, 0:20:04.584 --> 0:20:06.984 We're not going to be allied with you. That was 0:20:07.264 --> 0:20:10.264 very carefully worked out in part by Keith Kruck, And 0:20:10.344 --> 0:20:14.624 what he made happen is made sure that the FABS 0:20:14.664 --> 0:20:19.064 in Arizona are a subsidiary of TSMC. All the researches 0:20:19.104 --> 0:20:23.264 at TSMC, all the training is at TSMC, and that basically, 0:20:23.984 --> 0:20:26.504 you know, just because we have you know, some of 0:20:26.504 --> 0:20:30.144 the materials here, we still need cent too to give 0:20:30.144 --> 0:20:33.264 the orders in the research. And also it was an 0:20:33.304 --> 0:20:36.024 act of trust, you know, it's another way of sealing 0:20:36.064 --> 0:20:38.784 the alliance between the two countries and making our position 0:20:38.824 --> 0:20:41.264 of strategic ambiguity less ambiguous. 0:20:41.504 --> 0:20:45.704 Are the TSMC people worried that like, oh, the lazy 0:20:45.784 --> 0:20:48.984 Americans who work at Google and eat the pecan crusted 0:20:49.104 --> 0:20:51.504 chicken aren't going to be up to snuff and work 0:20:51.544 --> 0:20:52.824 hard at our Phoenix factories. 0:20:53.424 --> 0:21:00.224 Wasn't it Rockfish not just chicken the dole. Lots of 0:21:00.504 --> 0:21:03.464 people have long stated that Taiwan has the best trained 0:21:03.504 --> 0:21:06.944 engineers in the world. American engineers are often like we 0:21:06.984 --> 0:21:10.224 have obviously we have a great nuclear probe, great space program, 0:21:10.264 --> 0:21:13.104 but American engineers apparently like to work on things they 0:21:13.104 --> 0:21:16.464 can see more, they like big things. So there is 0:21:16.744 --> 0:21:20.064 a running stereotype that the Americans who came to train 0:21:20.224 --> 0:21:24.904 and since Chew were lazy and we're just like you know, 0:21:25.144 --> 0:21:27.304 adhd adult duds. 0:21:27.624 --> 0:21:29.344 Would you want to work at TSMC? 0:21:30.704 --> 0:21:33.144 I could never work at TSMC, but I can stand 0:21:33.184 --> 0:21:33.624 in awe of it. 0:21:34.264 --> 0:21:36.664 I'm glad you're still a journalist and not working at 0:21:36.664 --> 0:21:38.024 a chip factory. 0:21:37.984 --> 0:21:40.864 Yeah, they didn't make me an offer. 0:21:41.424 --> 0:21:44.384 Virginia Heffernan, I'm always a fan of yours, and I 0:21:44.464 --> 0:21:47.304 particularly loved I saw the face of gold in a 0:21:47.344 --> 0:21:50.704 semiconductor factory that you wrote on the cover of Wired, 0:21:51.104 --> 0:21:53.144 and it is the story of the week. Thank you 0:21:53.424 --> 0:21:54.624 so much for talking. 0:21:54.424 --> 0:21:56.424 To me, such a pleasure. Thank you so much. 0:21:57.784 --> 0:22:00.184 I'm staring at a chip right now and it is 0:22:00.544 --> 0:22:04.944 truly a wonder like I have no idea how this 0:22:05.064 --> 0:22:12.424 thing's made. A sigilant maltodextree. Why does it say contains milk? 0:22:12.864 --> 0:22:16.224 It's a Dill pickle flavored potato chip. Why would you 0:22:16.264 --> 0:22:21.984 need milk to make that? We have come so far 0:22:22.024 --> 0:22:25.904 with technology, it's like important to take a moment, and 0:22:25.904 --> 0:22:26.824 I appreciate it. 0:22:31.064 --> 0:22:34.264 At the end of the show, what's next for Joel Stein? 0:22:34.424 --> 0:22:40.144 Maybe you'll take a nap. Our show is produced by 0:22:40.384 --> 0:22:45.064 Joey fish Ground, mo La Bard, and Nishavenka. It was 0:22:45.184 --> 0:22:48.824