Speaker 1: School of Humans.
Speaker 2: This episode discusses sensitive topics. Please listen with care. I'm
Speaker 2: your host, Miranda Hawkins. Welcome to the Deep Dark Woods.
Speaker 2: Today's story is three two seven, or Hansel and Gretel.
Speaker 3: Next to a great forest, there lived a poor woodcutter
Speaker 3: who had come upon such hard times that he could
Speaker 3: scarcely provide daily bread for his wife and his two children,
Speaker 3: Hansel and Gretel. Finally, he could no longer even manage this,
Speaker 3: and he did not know where to turn for help.
Speaker 3: One evening, as he was lying in bed worrying about
Speaker 3: his problems, his wife said to him, listen, man, early tomorrow,
Speaker 3: take the two children, give them each a little piece
Speaker 3: of bread, then lead them into the middle of the
Speaker 3: thickest part of the woods. Make a fire for them,
Speaker 3: and leave them there, for we can no longer feed them.
Speaker 3: No woman, said the man. I cannot bring myself to
Speaker 3: abandon my own children to wild animals that would quickly
Speaker 3: tear them to pieces. If you don't do it, said
Speaker 3: the woman, all of us will starve together. And she
Speaker 3: gave him no peace until he said yes. The two
Speaker 3: children were still awake from hunger and heard everything that
Speaker 3: the mother had said.
Speaker 1: To the father.
Speaker 3: Gretel thought that she was doomed and began to cry pitifully,
Speaker 3: but Hansel said, be quiet, Gretel, and don't worry.
Speaker 1: I know what to do with that.
Speaker 3: He got up, pulled on his jacket, opened the lower door,
Speaker 3: and crept outside. The moon was shining brightly, and the
Speaker 3: white pebbles were glistening like silver coins. Hansel bent over
Speaker 3: and filled his jacket pockets with them as many as
Speaker 3: would fit. Then he went back into the house and said,
Speaker 3: don't worry, Gretel.
Speaker 1: Sleep well.
Speaker 3: Then he went back to bed and fell asleep. The
Speaker 3: next morning, the mother came and woke them both before sunrise.
Speaker 3: Get up, you children were going into the woods. Here's
Speaker 3: a little piece of bread. Take care and save it
Speaker 3: until midday.
Speaker 1: Gretel put the.
Speaker 3: Bread under her apron because Hansel's pockets were full of stones,
Speaker 3: and they set forth into the woods. After they had
Speaker 3: walked a little way, Hansel began stopping again and again
Speaker 3: and looking back toward the house. The father said, Hansel,
Speaker 3: why are you stopping and looking back?
Speaker 1: Pay attention now.
Speaker 3: And keep up with us, oh father. I am looking
Speaker 3: at my white cat that is sitting on the roof,
Speaker 3: and wants to say goodbye to me. The mother said,
Speaker 3: you fool, That isn't your cat. That's the morning sun
Speaker 3: shining on the chimney. However, Hansel had not been looking
Speaker 3: at his cat, but instead he had been dropping the
Speaker 3: shiny pebbles from his pockets onto the path. When they
Speaker 3: are in the middle of the woods, the father said,
Speaker 3: you children, gather some wood, and I will make a
Speaker 3: fire so we won't freeze. Hansel and Gretel gathered up
Speaker 3: some twigs a pile as high as a small mountain.
Speaker 3: They set it a fire, and when the flames were
Speaker 3: burning well, the mother said, lie down by the fire
Speaker 3: and sleep. We will go into the woods to cut
Speaker 3: down trees. Wait here until we come back and get you.
Speaker 3: Hansel and Gretel sat by the fire until midday and
Speaker 3: then ate their bread. They sat on until evening, but
Speaker 3: the mother and father did not return, and no one
Speaker 3: came to get them. When it became dark, Gretel began
Speaker 3: to cry, and Hansel said, wait a little till the
Speaker 3: moon comes up. After the moon had come up, he
Speaker 3: took Gretel by the hand. The pebbles were lying there
Speaker 3: like newly minted coins, glistening. They showed them the way.
Speaker 3: They walked throughout the entire night, and as morning was breaking,
Speaker 3: they arrived at the father's house. The father was overjoyed
Speaker 3: when he saw his children once more, for he had
Speaker 3: not wanted to leave them alone. The mother pretended that
Speaker 3: she too was happy, but secretly she was angry. Not
Speaker 3: long afterward, there was once again no bread in the house,
Speaker 3: and one evening, Hansel and Gretel heard the mother say
Speaker 3: to the father, the children found their way back once,
Speaker 3: and I let it be. But again we only have
Speaker 3: half a loaf of bread in the house. Tomorrow, you
Speaker 3: must take them deeper into the woods so they cannot
Speaker 3: find their way home. Otherwise there will be no help
Speaker 3: for us.
Speaker 1: The man was.
Speaker 3: Very disheartened, and he thought it would be better to
Speaker 3: share the last bit with the children, but because he
Speaker 3: had done it once, he could not say no. Hansel
Speaker 3: and Gretel heard the parent's conversation. Hansel got up and
Speaker 3: wanted to gather pebbles once again, but when he came
Speaker 3: to the door, he found that the mother had locked it. Still,
Speaker 3: he comforted Gretel and said, just go to sleep, Gretel,
Speaker 3: Dear God will help us. Early the next morning, they
Speaker 3: received their little pieces of bread even less than last time.
Speaker 3: On the way, Hansel crumbled his piece of bread in
Speaker 3: his pocket, then often stood still and threw crumbs on
Speaker 3: to the ground. Why are you always stopping and looking around,
Speaker 3: said his father. Keep walking straight ahead. Oh, I can
Speaker 3: see my pigeon sitting on the roof. It wants to
Speaker 3: say good bye to me, you fool, said his mother.
Speaker 3: That isn't your pigeon. That's the morning sun shining on
Speaker 3: the chimney. But Hansel crumbled all of his bread and
Speaker 3: dropped the crumbs on to the path. The mother took
Speaker 3: them deeper into the woods than they had ever been
Speaker 3: in their whole lifetime. There they were told to sleep
Speaker 3: by a large fire and that the parents would come
Speaker 3: get them in the evening. At midday, Gretel shared her
Speaker 3: bread with Hansel because he had scattered all of his
Speaker 3: along the path. Midday passed and evening passed, but no
Speaker 3: one came to get the poor children. Hansel comforted Gretel
Speaker 3: and said, wait, when the moon comes up, I will
Speaker 3: be able to see the crumbs of bread that I scattered,
Speaker 3: and they will show us the way back home. The
Speaker 3: moon came up, but when Hansel looked for the crumbs.
Speaker 1: They were gone.
Speaker 3: The many thousands of birds in the woods had found
Speaker 3: them and pecked them up. Hansel thought that he would
Speaker 3: still be able to find the way home, and he
Speaker 3: and Gretel set forth, but they soon became totally lost
Speaker 3: in the great wilderness. They walked through the night and
Speaker 3: the entire next day, and then exhausted, they fell asleep.
Speaker 3: They walked another day, but they could not find their
Speaker 3: way out of the woods. They were terribly hungry, for
Speaker 3: they had eaten only a few small berries that were
Speaker 3: growing on the ground. On the third day, they walked
Speaker 3: until midday, when they came to a little house built
Speaker 3: entirely from bread, with a roof made of cake, and
Speaker 3: the windows were made of clear sugar. Let's sit down
Speaker 3: and eat our fill, said Hansel. I'll eat from the roof,
Speaker 3: and Gretel, you eat from the window. That will be
Speaker 3: nice and sweet for you. Hansel had already eaten a
Speaker 3: piece from the roof, and Gretel had eaten a few
Speaker 3: round window panes, and she had just broken out another
Speaker 3: one when she heard a gentle voice calling from inside. Nibble, nibble,
Speaker 3: little mouse, who is nibbling at my house. Hansel and
Speaker 3: Gretel were so frightened that they dropped what they were
Speaker 3: holding in their hands, and immediately they saw a little
Speaker 3: woman as old as the hills creeping out the door.
Speaker 3: She shook her head and said, oh, you, dear children,
Speaker 3: where did you come from? Come inside with me, and
Speaker 3: you will be just fine. She took them by the
Speaker 3: hand and led them into her house.
Speaker 2: It's funny, I've never thought of Hansel and Gretel as
Speaker 2: a dark fairy tale, or maybe I've heard it so
Speaker 2: many times it's lost some of its pact. But how
Speaker 2: the story of Hansel and Gretel came to be is
Speaker 2: more horrific than the tail itself. From around nine fifty
Speaker 2: to twelve fifty AD, during Europe's medieval period, there was
Speaker 2: a peculiar phenomenon. The temperature began to rise. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of reasons for this to happen, but the result
Speaker 2: was that this unseasonably warm time led to surplus and crops,
Speaker 2: and Europe's population exploded. But then in the early thirteen hundreds,
Speaker 2: temperatures dropped for Europe. This meant torrential rains and cold weather.
Speaker 2: Crops failed, and livestock died. All of a sudden, that
Speaker 2: population boom that seemed so great was in a dire situation.
Speaker 2: People were sick, people were starving. When it came to
Speaker 2: basic items like grain, wheat, barley, oats, bread, and salt,
Speaker 2: it was either too expensive or just gone. In desperation,
Speaker 2: people resorted to murdering and stealing just to fill their bellies.
Speaker 2: Adults starved themselves so the young could eat, or they
Speaker 2: would abandon their children. And if that wasn't enough, people
Speaker 2: also ate dogs and horses. People would even eat each other.
Speaker 2: It was eat or be eaten. Along with a mass famine,
Speaker 2: regions were destabilized, which led to class warfare and political strife.
Speaker 2: Europe was in chaos. Finally, in thirteen seventeen, the crop stabilized,
Speaker 2: but it wasn't until five years later the food.
Speaker 1: Supply was replenished.
Speaker 2: During this time, Northern Europe alone, which includes Germany, saw
Speaker 2: five to twelve percent of their population die of starvation
Speaker 2: and starvation related illnesses. This is where people believe the
Speaker 2: tale of two starving children abandoned by their mother and
Speaker 2: father began. Centuries later, the brothers Grim heard the story
Speaker 2: of Hansel and Gretel. Some people think the story might
Speaker 2: have come from the German region of Hesse, which is
Speaker 2: where Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm were from, but most people
Speaker 2: think the brothers heard the story from a twelve year
Speaker 2: old girl named Henrietta Dorothea Wilde. She was called Dorchen
Speaker 2: for short. Dorten's father forbade her and his six other
Speaker 2: daughters from hanging out with the brothers because they were
Speaker 2: too poor. But fast forward to eighteen twenty five, Dortun
Speaker 2: became Missus Grimm when she and Wilhelm were married. The
Speaker 2: brothers Grim published Handel and Gretel in their first collection
Speaker 2: in eighteen twelve, picking up from where we left off
Speaker 2: of the start of this episode. After the children met
Speaker 2: the old woman in the woods, she led them to
Speaker 2: her house. The witch then knocked handle on the page
Speaker 2: while she made Gretel to the housework to eat both children,
Speaker 2: but started with Hansel. She forced Hansel to eat every
Speaker 2: day to fatten him up. She'd then make him stick
Speaker 2: out his finger to check if he was getting fatter,
Speaker 2: but Hansel would stick out a bone instead. After a month,
Speaker 2: the witch got fed up and decided she was going
Speaker 2: to eat Hansel. When the witch called Gretel over and
Speaker 2: asked her if the oven was hot enough. Gretel tricked
Speaker 2: the witch, saying she didn't know how to tell, so
Speaker 2: the witch leaned over to show Gretel, and then Gretel
Speaker 2: shoved the witch in the oven and locked it up,
Speaker 2: leaving the witch to burn. After Gretel freed her brother,
Speaker 2: the two made it home. Their father was overjoyed to
Speaker 2: see them. Their mother, however, was dead. Of course, the
Speaker 2: Grims Hansel and Gretel wasn't the only version of this story.
Speaker 2: We know that stories travel and adapt across places and time,
Speaker 2: resulting in numerous variations with common themes and ideas.
Speaker 1: Besides, Germany was not.
Speaker 2: The only place where children were abandoned in the woods.
Speaker 2: One was written by Italian author John Battista Bazille, who
Speaker 2: was born in fifteen sixty six and died in sixteen
Speaker 2: thirty two. His version, Nanillo and Nanilla was published after
Speaker 2: his death, although.
Speaker 1: The published day is unknown.
Speaker 2: But in this one, it's a stepmother, not the mother,
Speaker 2: who forces the father to abandon the children. The two
Speaker 2: kids are separated by the howling of a prince's hounds.
Speaker 2: The young boy is taken in by the prince. The
Speaker 2: sister by pirates. When the pirates are attacked and shipwrecked,
Speaker 2: a large magical fish swallows her whole, and she grows
Speaker 2: up in a mansion inside the fish's belly. Years later,
Speaker 2: the sister catches sight of her brother on shore, and
Speaker 2: they are reunited when the fish delivers her to him.
Speaker 2: The prince in puts out a to find their father,
Speaker 2: who eventually shows up at the castle, glad to see
Speaker 2: his children are safe and alive. As for the cruel stepmother,
Speaker 2: she is put in a cask and rolled down a mountain.
Speaker 2: Remember Charles Perraut, He's a French author who wrote the
Speaker 2: magical version of Cinderella that Disney pulled from. He also
Speaker 2: wrote a story like Hansel and Gretel. His came more
Speaker 2: than a century before the Grims, in sixteen ninety seven,
Speaker 2: titled The Little Thumb. In Pierrot's story, a father and
Speaker 2: mother have seven children. The mother never has less than
Speaker 2: two at a time. There's nothing magical about it. She
Speaker 2: just happens to love kids. Her youngest is named Little
Speaker 2: Thumb because he's born as small as a person's thumb.
Speaker 2: The father is a one who says the children.
Speaker 1: Must be abandoned.
Speaker 2: It's a mother who is absolutely against the idea, but
Speaker 2: eventually the father wears her down. The next day, the
Speaker 2: brothers are led into the woods the first time. The
Speaker 2: boys find their way back using pebbles little Thumb had
Speaker 2: tossed to the ground to leave a trail.
Speaker 1: When they return.
Speaker 2: Initially, everyone is happy because the parents had run into
Speaker 2: some money so there was food for all. But when
Speaker 2: the money runs out and their bellies are hungry, the
Speaker 2: parents take their kids to the woods a second time. Again,
Speaker 2: the mother is against it, but the father pushes.
Speaker 1: Her into making this decision.
Speaker 2: The second time, the seven brothers get lost in the
Speaker 2: woods and end up at an ogre's house. The ogre's
Speaker 2: wife wants to protect the boys from her husband, who
Speaker 2: wants to kill and eat them. The ogre and Ogris
Speaker 2: have seven daughters who have already bitten and drink the
Speaker 2: blood of human kids. To save himself and his brothers,
Speaker 2: Thumb tricks the Ogre into slitting the throats of his daughters.
Speaker 2: Thumb and his brothers then make run for it.
Speaker 1: When the Ogre realizes what.
Speaker 2: He's done, he puts on his magical seven League boots
Speaker 2: to hunt the boys down. Seven League boots allow the
Speaker 2: wearer to travel seven leagues per step, which of course
Speaker 2: enables a person to cover great distances in a short time.
Speaker 2: The boys see the ogre coming and hide behind a rock.
Speaker 2: The ogre, who's very tired from wearing the boots, lays
Speaker 2: down for a nap, which happens to be by the
Speaker 2: same rock where the boys are hiding.
Speaker 1: Thumb tells his brothers to head home, and they do.
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, them puts on the boots and heads back to
Speaker 2: the ogre's wife.
Speaker 1: He tells her that her.
Speaker 2: Husband has been captured by a gang of thieves and
Speaker 2: he needs all the gold and silver to save him.
Speaker 2: She of course gives him the gold and silver. Her
Speaker 2: husband might eat children, but he is a good husband. Now,
Speaker 2: there are two endings to this story. Perrot wrote both
Speaker 2: within the same story, although it's uncle clear why. The
Speaker 2: first is that Thumb heads home with all the Ogre's
Speaker 2: money and is received with great joy. But in Perou's
Speaker 2: alternate version, the little Thumb doesn't get any money from
Speaker 2: the ogre's wife. Instead, he takes the seven league boots
Speaker 2: and heads to court, where he speaks with the king
Speaker 2: and helps with the war. After serving for a while
Speaker 2: and getting rich. It's only then them returns home and
Speaker 2: is received with great joy. While Basili's story involves child abandonment,
Speaker 2: it lacks cannibalism.
Speaker 1: It's also more in line with.
Speaker 2: A traditional fairy tale and that it has a clear
Speaker 2: and decisive, happy ending. Pero's is different in that the
Speaker 2: roles of the mother and father are reversed, and while
Speaker 2: it still involves child abandonment, cannibalism still plays a factor. However,
Speaker 2: there is something to be said about the ogress wanting
Speaker 2: to protect the seven brothers, So what about Hansel and Gretel.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: As time win on, Hansel and Gretel's roots became too
Speaker 2: dark even for the Brother's Graham. My first memories of
Speaker 2: Hansel and Gretel always include the stepmother. It was a
Speaker 2: stepmother who came up with the idea to abandon the kids.
Speaker 2: It was a stepmother who convinced a father to go
Speaker 2: along with the plan. It was a stepmother who felt
Speaker 2: no remorse about leaving two children alone in the woods.
Speaker 2: But as you heard at the beginning of this episode,
Speaker 2: the original Brother's Graham story didn't have a stepmother. It
Speaker 2: was a children's biological mother who did all of those things.
Speaker 2: Even for Jacob and Wilhelm. This soon became too dark
Speaker 2: for them.
Speaker 1: How could a mother abandon.
Speaker 2: Her own children? It was too dark a mark on motherhood.
Speaker 2: So by the time their fourth collection was published, the
Speaker 2: mother had become the stepmother. Also, after the mother became
Speaker 2: a stepmother, she went from being portrayed as practical to mean,
Speaker 2: even abusive. She called both a husband and children names
Speaker 2: like fool and lazy bones, and was more apt to
Speaker 2: criticize and scold. The father evolved into a more sympathetic character.
Speaker 2: This is shown through changes made in his dialogue. There's
Speaker 2: one line that is added in the later version where
Speaker 2: the father says, but I do feel sorry for the
Speaker 2: poor children. By the time the final edition was published
Speaker 2: in eighteen fifty seven, the Brother's Grim had made even
Speaker 2: more changes. Not only had the family dynamics changed, but
Speaker 2: it had become more of a fairy tale. For example,
Speaker 2: at the end of the final story, the children come
Speaker 2: to a large body of water they can't cross, so
Speaker 2: they call out and a duckling carries him across, one
Speaker 2: at a time before finally making a home.
Speaker 1: To their father.
Speaker 2: And as the years passed, Hansel and Gretel drifted even
Speaker 2: further from its dark, twisted roots. In eighteen ninety three,
Speaker 2: composer Engelbert Humperdink wrote an opera that is still performed
Speaker 2: widely today. In his story, Hansel and Gretel's father is
Speaker 2: a broommaker. The children are home when Hansel complains he's hungry,
Speaker 2: so Gretel shows him milk the neighbors have given them.
Speaker 2: The kids are happy and danced and end up knocking
Speaker 2: the milk over. Their mother, who is their biological mother,
Speaker 2: is furious with the children, so she sends them to
Speaker 2: pick strawberries. Notice this isn't based on malice or coldness.
Speaker 2: This is just one of those hey, you spilled the milk,
Speaker 2: now clean it up kind of things. But when the
Speaker 2: dad returns home and the wife tells him where the
Speaker 2: kids are, he tells her about the witch that lives
Speaker 2: in the woods. Both parents are worried and immediately set
Speaker 2: out searching for their kids. This all happens in Act one.
Speaker 2: From there things become even more fantastical. An act two,
Speaker 2: Hansel admits he's lost the way, and then a magical
Speaker 2: bang called the Sandman comes and puts kids to sleep.
Speaker 2: Then an act three, Hansel and Gretel are woken by
Speaker 2: the dew fairy and see the gingerbread house where the
Speaker 2: witch lives.
Speaker 1: But they don't see the witch.
Speaker 2: Things are per usual here, with the witch getting shoved
Speaker 2: and burned in the oven and Hansel and Gretel escaping,
Speaker 2: except with a lot more spell casting. Also, after the
Speaker 2: witch is shoved into the oven, it explodes, and then
Speaker 2: all the children that had been captured and turned into
Speaker 2: gingerbread before Hansel and Gretel are turned back into children.
Speaker 2: It's not clear if the other kids may get home
Speaker 2: to their parents, but overall it's portrayed as a happy
Speaker 2: ending for everyone. It's a far cry from the original
Speaker 2: grim tale of food insecurity, starvation, and child abandonment. And
Speaker 2: while Graham had a witch and at some point a duck,
Speaker 2: it did not have a magic wand or spells or
Speaker 2: a sandman. Ray harry Hausen dropped to stop motion animation
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty one. The story once again has changed completely.
Speaker 2: In this story, Handel and Gretel head into the woods
Speaker 2: to forts for food to help their dad, who is
Speaker 2: stressed trying to keep in a food on the table.
Speaker 2: What's important to note here is they choose to go
Speaker 2: into the woods entirely of their own free will. After
Speaker 2: their mini ordeals, they are of course rewarded with gold, silver,
Speaker 2: and precious jewels. Each version of Handel and Gretel has
Speaker 2: its own moral, but this one was specifically about familial bonds.
Speaker 2: During the nineteen fifties, nuclear families were important, meaning a mother, father,
Speaker 2: and children. Divorce was majorly looked down upon, so value
Speaker 2: was placed on keeping the family together. This is shown
Speaker 2: through Harry Hausen's stop motion and that it was about
Speaker 2: the children wanting to help their father rather than the
Speaker 2: father or parents betraying the children.
Speaker 1: The entire ordeal.
Speaker 2: Strengthened the family's relationship, and then in nineteen eighty three,
Speaker 2: the story was stripped down even further with Shelley Devall's
Speaker 2: Fairytale Theater, which was created for television. The big takeaway
Speaker 2: from the Fairytale Theater is that it's a cautionary tale
Speaker 2: for kids to not take candy from strangers. In the
Speaker 2: early two thousands, there were a couple more remakes. Hansel
Speaker 2: and Gretel Get Baked was a weird, trippy movie released
Speaker 2: in twenty thirteen that involved a witch, grawing Weed, and
Speaker 2: two kids who liked to get high. There's a witch who,
Speaker 2: in order to stay young, kills and eats teenagers, and
Speaker 2: instead of a gingerbread house, she uses a special brand
Speaker 2: of weed to lure them to her place. In the movie,
Speaker 2: Gretel's boyfriend introduces her to a strain of weed called
Speaker 2: black Forest. Gretel makes him go get more, and he
Speaker 2: gets taken and eaten by the witch, whose name is Agnes.
Speaker 2: Gretel convinces Hansel to come with her to search for
Speaker 2: her boyfriend, where they inevitably battle the witch.
Speaker 1: The two escape, but so does Agnes.
Speaker 2: Also in twenty thirteen, Hansel and Gretel Witch Hunters was released.
Speaker 2: The movie picks up fifteen years after Hansel and Gretel
Speaker 2: burn the witch in the oven. The two have become
Speaker 2: hell bent on revenge by hunting down and killing witches.
Speaker 1: What they don't know is not every.
Speaker 2: Witch's bad, and as a movie unfolds, you learn Hansel
Speaker 2: and Gretel's mother was the original white Witch. Now the
Speaker 2: head of the coven of the Bad Witches needs Gretel's
Speaker 2: heart to complete a ceremony. What I found interesting here
Speaker 2: was how they transformed the character of the witch. I
Speaker 2: would argue the presence of the good, good, and bad
Speaker 2: witch in the Witch Hunters shows a shift in how
Speaker 2: we view women now and the brothers Grim tales witches
Speaker 2: were always evil, They ate children, tortured people, and overall
Speaker 2: weren't to be trusted. But more so, the fear around
Speaker 2: witches was that they were women, women who showed independence
Speaker 2: or owned their agency, or defy typical gender roles. It
Speaker 2: was those women who lived during the Grim's time who
Speaker 2: are considered the real threat. Folkloris and retired professor Jack
Speaker 2: Zipes also believes there's been a recent shift in how
Speaker 2: witches are viewed. Zips has written, translated, and critiqued many
Speaker 2: fairy tales and continues to do public engagements.
Speaker 4: So what has happened in Western societies is that the
Speaker 4: witch has no longer become dangerous because the women's movement,
Speaker 4: the way women have fought for their own independence, has
Speaker 4: made tremendous gains in most Western societies. Not in the
Speaker 4: Middle East, not in India or China or other places,
Speaker 4: but in Western societies. Women like to be called witches.
Speaker 4: They have taken over the witch, and they formed groups
Speaker 4: called the witches, and they're proud and they have deflated
Speaker 4: the critique of women who are called witches and shown
Speaker 4: that we in society has gotten everything wrong, and so
Speaker 4: tales about witches today are much softer or unusual or whatever,
Speaker 4: But they do not show women more or less as killers,
Speaker 4: as eaters, as cannibals, and things like that.
Speaker 2: The same can be said at the twenty twenty movie
Speaker 2: Gretel and Hansel. The first most notable change is that
Speaker 2: Gretel's name is first in the title. The second is
Speaker 2: that at the end, while the witch is killed, Gretel
Speaker 2: starts to become a witch herself. The movie sets itself
Speaker 2: apart at the beginning by creating different stakes. Their father
Speaker 2: is already dead and the mother threatens that if they
Speaker 2: come back, they will be killed themselves, so there is
Speaker 2: no home to go back to. The mother also casts
Speaker 2: out Gretel because of her affinity for magical powers. I
Speaker 2: think this could be an argument on women taking their
Speaker 2: power back or not shying away from it. Other articles
Speaker 2: I've read point to this film showing a shift from
Speaker 2: patriarchy to patriarchy and also a lesson of gender roles,
Speaker 2: since Gretel, by circumstances, is found taking care of her
Speaker 2: brother at such a young age, at least at the
Speaker 2: beginning of the film, but at the end, after the
Speaker 2: witch is killed and the two are free, they each
Speaker 2: go their own way, Hansel to the foresters, who are
Speaker 2: basically people who help to take care of the forest,
Speaker 2: and Gretel to learn more about herself and her powers.
Speaker 1: But let's back.
Speaker 2: Up a bit, because while remakes and revisions of the
Speaker 2: original tale are being fit for the big screen, there's
Speaker 2: one author who took Hansel and Gretel back to its
Speaker 2: tragic roots, just in a slightly different way. Known best
Speaker 2: for his graphic novels The Sandman and his novels like
Speaker 2: Stardust and American Gods, Neil Gaiman does not shy away
Speaker 2: from horror or hardships. In fact, all of his stories
Speaker 2: center on uncomfortable truths, and in twenty fourteen, he and
Speaker 2: illustrator Lorenzo Matati teamed up to create their own version
Speaker 2: of Hansel and Gretel. In Gayman's retelling, the family is poor,
Speaker 2: but they still have enough to eat. They catch game
Speaker 2: in the woods, dig up vegetables from the gardens. When
Speaker 2: they have enough money, their pop brings home chunks of meat.
Speaker 2: There was freshly baked bread and cook cabbage and eggs
Speaker 2: on their table.
Speaker 1: The family wasn't necessarily happy.
Speaker 2: Gamon describes their mother as sharp tongued and their father
Speaker 2: as sullen. The father doesn't always want to be around
Speaker 2: the kids, but those were the good days because that
Speaker 2: was before the war. Gamon was intentional on how he
Speaker 2: described the war. He never said when, who, or where.
Speaker 2: He never had Hansel and Gretel's family chose side. In
Speaker 2: this way, the story can be applied to any war
Speaker 2: in their family, to everyone who is affected. As the
Speaker 2: war drags on, there is no food to be found,
Speaker 2: and that is when the mother mentions to the father
Speaker 2: that they must take the kids to the woods. The
Speaker 2: ending is also different. Not only do the children return
Speaker 2: to a happy father and a dead mother, but in
Speaker 2: the years that followed there were no more empty plates,
Speaker 2: and when Hansel and Gretel got married, there was so
Speaker 2: much food at their weddings that the fat from the
Speaker 2: meat written down their chins. I feel Gaymon's version of
Speaker 2: Hansel and Gretel is the most important retelling. Other versions
Speaker 2: softened the original story, basically taking out its teeth and
Speaker 2: watering it down. Gaiman's version restored some of the initial
Speaker 2: integrity of Hansel and Gretel being about famine and child abandonment,
Speaker 2: But as retired professor Jack Zeipes points out, war is
Speaker 2: not the only reason for child abandonment.
Speaker 4: And it's popular today because we abandoned children. We abuse children.
Speaker 4: You know, you can talk about all the people who
Speaker 4: are coming to our country from South America who send
Speaker 4: their children ahead of themselves because they can't get there,
Speaker 4: but the children might be They pray, probably you know
Speaker 4: that the children will have a better life that they
Speaker 4: get to America, but they abandon them on the border.
Speaker 4: There are tons of children who have been abandoned by
Speaker 4: their parents because they don't know what to do. And
Speaker 4: so why do we continue to read, listen, and play
Speaker 4: with this particular tale. It's because of the fact that
Speaker 4: we haven't resolved this. We have not developed the conditions
Speaker 4: that we should develop that will enable poor people to
Speaker 4: lead fulfilled lives. And this tale deals with that question.
Speaker 4: It deals with why we abandon children leave them. But
Speaker 4: the whole question of abandonment of children hasn't gone away today,
Speaker 4: and that's why Hansel and Gretel is so significant.
Speaker 2: There are different reasons why children go hungry, or why
Speaker 2: they're just abandoned.
Speaker 1: It can be argued children.
Speaker 2: Are left behind out of love or selfishness, but it's
Speaker 2: never really that simple. While Hansel and Grettel is a
Speaker 2: fairy tale, it's not meant to be easily digested. In
Speaker 2: an article Claire McBride wrote for sci Fi, she said,
Speaker 2: quote the idea that when famine comes, the people who
Speaker 2: are meant to care for you will fail you. Handol
Speaker 2: and Bruttel contend not only with their mother, but with
Speaker 2: their father's and ability to protect them from the consequences
Speaker 2: of famine and the fairy tale. After the children successfully
Speaker 2: kill the witch, the mother dies, suggesting a connection between
Speaker 2: the two characters.
Speaker 1: The one trying to survive.
Speaker 2: By abandoning the children and the one trying to survive
Speaker 2: by eating them might be one and the same, just
Speaker 2: at different points in their desperation.
Speaker 1: End quote Hanslin.
Speaker 2: Grettel was intended to encompass the hardships of hunger and
Speaker 2: what people will do to survive, but Decades chose to
Speaker 2: soften the blow in the end.
Speaker 5: As Zipe says, most important thing is to bear in
Speaker 5: mind when these tales were collected, why they'd be so
Speaker 5: significant in Europe at that time and why they have
Speaker 5: stuck with us because we live in a society we
Speaker 5: abandon children, we exploit children. Children are really not socialized,
Speaker 5: and so this tale will never go away.
Speaker 2: Next time, beware those who say they want to help.
Speaker 1: It always comes with a price.
Speaker 2: The Deep Dark Woods is a production of School Humans
Speaker 2: and iHeart Podcasts. It was created, written, and hosted by
Speaker 2: me Miranda Hawkins. This episode was produced by mikel June
Speaker 2: was senior producer Gabby Watts. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott,
Speaker 2: Brandon Barr, Elsie Crowley, and Maya Howard. Stories were voiced
Speaker 2: by Julia Christgau. Theme song was composed by Jesse Niswanger,
Speaker 2: who also sound designed and mixed this episode. If you
Speaker 2: enjoyed this show, please leave a review and you can
Speaker 2: follow along with the show on Instagram at School of
Speaker 2: Humans