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Speaker 1: School of Humans.

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Speaker 2: This episode discusses sensitive topics. Please listen with care. I'm

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Speaker 2: your host, Miranda Hawkins. Welcome to the Deep Dark Woods.

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Speaker 2: Today's story is three two seven, or Hansel and Gretel.

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Speaker 3: Next to a great forest, there lived a poor woodcutter

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Speaker 3: who had come upon such hard times that he could

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Speaker 3: scarcely provide daily bread for his wife and his two children,

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Speaker 3: Hansel and Gretel. Finally, he could no longer even manage this,

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Speaker 3: and he did not know where to turn for help.

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Speaker 3: One evening, as he was lying in bed worrying about

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Speaker 3: his problems, his wife said to him, listen, man, early tomorrow,

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Speaker 3: take the two children, give them each a little piece

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Speaker 3: of bread, then lead them into the middle of the

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Speaker 3: thickest part of the woods. Make a fire for them,

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Speaker 3: and leave them there, for we can no longer feed them.

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Speaker 3: No woman, said the man. I cannot bring myself to

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Speaker 3: abandon my own children to wild animals that would quickly

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Speaker 3: tear them to pieces. If you don't do it, said

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Speaker 3: the woman, all of us will starve together. And she

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Speaker 3: gave him no peace until he said yes. The two

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Speaker 3: children were still awake from hunger and heard everything that

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Speaker 3: the mother had said.

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Speaker 1: To the father.

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Speaker 3: Gretel thought that she was doomed and began to cry pitifully,

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Speaker 3: but Hansel said, be quiet, Gretel, and don't worry.

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Speaker 1: I know what to do with that.

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Speaker 3: He got up, pulled on his jacket, opened the lower door,

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Speaker 3: and crept outside. The moon was shining brightly, and the

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Speaker 3: white pebbles were glistening like silver coins. Hansel bent over

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Speaker 3: and filled his jacket pockets with them as many as

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Speaker 3: would fit. Then he went back into the house and said,

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Speaker 3: don't worry, Gretel.

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Speaker 1: Sleep well.

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Speaker 3: Then he went back to bed and fell asleep. The

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Speaker 3: next morning, the mother came and woke them both before sunrise.

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Speaker 3: Get up, you children were going into the woods. Here's

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Speaker 3: a little piece of bread. Take care and save it

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Speaker 3: until midday.

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Speaker 1: Gretel put the.

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Speaker 3: Bread under her apron because Hansel's pockets were full of stones,

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Speaker 3: and they set forth into the woods. After they had

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Speaker 3: walked a little way, Hansel began stopping again and again

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Speaker 3: and looking back toward the house. The father said, Hansel,

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Speaker 3: why are you stopping and looking back?

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Speaker 1: Pay attention now.

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Speaker 3: And keep up with us, oh father. I am looking

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Speaker 3: at my white cat that is sitting on the roof,

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Speaker 3: and wants to say goodbye to me. The mother said,

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Speaker 3: you fool, That isn't your cat. That's the morning sun

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Speaker 3: shining on the chimney. However, Hansel had not been looking

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Speaker 3: at his cat, but instead he had been dropping the

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Speaker 3: shiny pebbles from his pockets onto the path. When they

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Speaker 3: are in the middle of the woods, the father said,

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Speaker 3: you children, gather some wood, and I will make a

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Speaker 3: fire so we won't freeze. Hansel and Gretel gathered up

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Speaker 3: some twigs a pile as high as a small mountain.

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Speaker 3: They set it a fire, and when the flames were

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Speaker 3: burning well, the mother said, lie down by the fire

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Speaker 3: and sleep. We will go into the woods to cut

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Speaker 3: down trees. Wait here until we come back and get you.

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Speaker 3: Hansel and Gretel sat by the fire until midday and

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Speaker 3: then ate their bread. They sat on until evening, but

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Speaker 3: the mother and father did not return, and no one

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Speaker 3: came to get them. When it became dark, Gretel began

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Speaker 3: to cry, and Hansel said, wait a little till the

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Speaker 3: moon comes up. After the moon had come up, he

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Speaker 3: took Gretel by the hand. The pebbles were lying there

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Speaker 3: like newly minted coins, glistening. They showed them the way.

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Speaker 3: They walked throughout the entire night, and as morning was breaking,

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Speaker 3: they arrived at the father's house. The father was overjoyed

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Speaker 3: when he saw his children once more, for he had

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Speaker 3: not wanted to leave them alone. The mother pretended that

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Speaker 3: she too was happy, but secretly she was angry. Not

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Speaker 3: long afterward, there was once again no bread in the house,

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Speaker 3: and one evening, Hansel and Gretel heard the mother say

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Speaker 3: to the father, the children found their way back once,

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Speaker 3: and I let it be. But again we only have

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Speaker 3: half a loaf of bread in the house. Tomorrow, you

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Speaker 3: must take them deeper into the woods so they cannot

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Speaker 3: find their way home. Otherwise there will be no help

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Speaker 3: for us.

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Speaker 1: The man was.

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Speaker 3: Very disheartened, and he thought it would be better to

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Speaker 3: share the last bit with the children, but because he

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Speaker 3: had done it once, he could not say no. Hansel

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Speaker 3: and Gretel heard the parent's conversation. Hansel got up and

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Speaker 3: wanted to gather pebbles once again, but when he came

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Speaker 3: to the door, he found that the mother had locked it. Still,

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Speaker 3: he comforted Gretel and said, just go to sleep, Gretel,

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Speaker 3: Dear God will help us. Early the next morning, they

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Speaker 3: received their little pieces of bread even less than last time.

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Speaker 3: On the way, Hansel crumbled his piece of bread in

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Speaker 3: his pocket, then often stood still and threw crumbs on

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Speaker 3: to the ground. Why are you always stopping and looking around,

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Speaker 3: said his father. Keep walking straight ahead. Oh, I can

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Speaker 3: see my pigeon sitting on the roof. It wants to

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Speaker 3: say good bye to me, you fool, said his mother.

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Speaker 3: That isn't your pigeon. That's the morning sun shining on

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Speaker 3: the chimney. But Hansel crumbled all of his bread and

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Speaker 3: dropped the crumbs on to the path. The mother took

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Speaker 3: them deeper into the woods than they had ever been

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Speaker 3: in their whole lifetime. There they were told to sleep

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Speaker 3: by a large fire and that the parents would come

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Speaker 3: get them in the evening. At midday, Gretel shared her

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Speaker 3: bread with Hansel because he had scattered all of his

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Speaker 3: along the path. Midday passed and evening passed, but no

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Speaker 3: one came to get the poor children. Hansel comforted Gretel

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Speaker 3: and said, wait, when the moon comes up, I will

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Speaker 3: be able to see the crumbs of bread that I scattered,

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Speaker 3: and they will show us the way back home. The

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Speaker 3: moon came up, but when Hansel looked for the crumbs.

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Speaker 1: They were gone.

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Speaker 3: The many thousands of birds in the woods had found

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Speaker 3: them and pecked them up. Hansel thought that he would

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Speaker 3: still be able to find the way home, and he

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Speaker 3: and Gretel set forth, but they soon became totally lost

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Speaker 3: in the great wilderness. They walked through the night and

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Speaker 3: the entire next day, and then exhausted, they fell asleep.

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Speaker 3: They walked another day, but they could not find their

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Speaker 3: way out of the woods. They were terribly hungry, for

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Speaker 3: they had eaten only a few small berries that were

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Speaker 3: growing on the ground. On the third day, they walked

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Speaker 3: until midday, when they came to a little house built

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Speaker 3: entirely from bread, with a roof made of cake, and

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Speaker 3: the windows were made of clear sugar. Let's sit down

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Speaker 3: and eat our fill, said Hansel. I'll eat from the roof,

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Speaker 3: and Gretel, you eat from the window. That will be

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Speaker 3: nice and sweet for you. Hansel had already eaten a

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Speaker 3: piece from the roof, and Gretel had eaten a few

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Speaker 3: round window panes, and she had just broken out another

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Speaker 3: one when she heard a gentle voice calling from inside. Nibble, nibble,

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Speaker 3: little mouse, who is nibbling at my house. Hansel and

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Speaker 3: Gretel were so frightened that they dropped what they were

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Speaker 3: holding in their hands, and immediately they saw a little

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Speaker 3: woman as old as the hills creeping out the door.

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Speaker 3: She shook her head and said, oh, you, dear children,

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Speaker 3: where did you come from? Come inside with me, and

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Speaker 3: you will be just fine. She took them by the

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Speaker 3: hand and led them into her house.

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Speaker 2: It's funny, I've never thought of Hansel and Gretel as

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Speaker 2: a dark fairy tale, or maybe I've heard it so

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Speaker 2: many times it's lost some of its pact. But how

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Speaker 2: the story of Hansel and Gretel came to be is

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Speaker 2: more horrific than the tail itself. From around nine fifty

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Speaker 2: to twelve fifty AD, during Europe's medieval period, there was

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Speaker 2: a peculiar phenomenon. The temperature began to rise. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of reasons for this to happen, but the result

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Speaker 2: was that this unseasonably warm time led to surplus and crops,

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Speaker 2: and Europe's population exploded. But then in the early thirteen hundreds,

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Speaker 2: temperatures dropped for Europe. This meant torrential rains and cold weather.

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Speaker 2: Crops failed, and livestock died. All of a sudden, that

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Speaker 2: population boom that seemed so great was in a dire situation.

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Speaker 2: People were sick, people were starving. When it came to

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Speaker 2: basic items like grain, wheat, barley, oats, bread, and salt,

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Speaker 2: it was either too expensive or just gone. In desperation,

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Speaker 2: people resorted to murdering and stealing just to fill their bellies.

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Speaker 2: Adults starved themselves so the young could eat, or they

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Speaker 2: would abandon their children. And if that wasn't enough, people

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Speaker 2: also ate dogs and horses. People would even eat each other.

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Speaker 2: It was eat or be eaten. Along with a mass famine,

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Speaker 2: regions were destabilized, which led to class warfare and political strife.

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Speaker 2: Europe was in chaos. Finally, in thirteen seventeen, the crop stabilized,

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Speaker 2: but it wasn't until five years later the food.

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Speaker 1: Supply was replenished.

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Speaker 2: During this time, Northern Europe alone, which includes Germany, saw

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Speaker 2: five to twelve percent of their population die of starvation

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Speaker 2: and starvation related illnesses. This is where people believe the

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Speaker 2: tale of two starving children abandoned by their mother and

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Speaker 2: father began. Centuries later, the brothers Grim heard the story

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Speaker 2: of Hansel and Gretel. Some people think the story might

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Speaker 2: have come from the German region of Hesse, which is

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Speaker 2: where Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm were from, but most people

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Speaker 2: think the brothers heard the story from a twelve year

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Speaker 2: old girl named Henrietta Dorothea Wilde. She was called Dorchen

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Speaker 2: for short. Dorten's father forbade her and his six other

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Speaker 2: daughters from hanging out with the brothers because they were

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Speaker 2: too poor. But fast forward to eighteen twenty five, Dortun

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Speaker 2: became Missus Grimm when she and Wilhelm were married. The

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Speaker 2: brothers Grim published Handel and Gretel in their first collection

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Speaker 2: in eighteen twelve, picking up from where we left off

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Speaker 2: of the start of this episode. After the children met

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Speaker 2: the old woman in the woods, she led them to

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Speaker 2: her house. The witch then knocked handle on the page

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Speaker 2: while she made Gretel to the housework to eat both children,

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Speaker 2: but started with Hansel. She forced Hansel to eat every

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Speaker 2: day to fatten him up. She'd then make him stick

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Speaker 2: out his finger to check if he was getting fatter,

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Speaker 2: but Hansel would stick out a bone instead. After a month,

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Speaker 2: the witch got fed up and decided she was going

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Speaker 2: to eat Hansel. When the witch called Gretel over and

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Speaker 2: asked her if the oven was hot enough. Gretel tricked

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Speaker 2: the witch, saying she didn't know how to tell, so

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Speaker 2: the witch leaned over to show Gretel, and then Gretel

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Speaker 2: shoved the witch in the oven and locked it up,

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Speaker 2: leaving the witch to burn. After Gretel freed her brother,

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Speaker 2: the two made it home. Their father was overjoyed to

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Speaker 2: see them. Their mother, however, was dead. Of course, the

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Speaker 2: Grims Hansel and Gretel wasn't the only version of this story.

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Speaker 2: We know that stories travel and adapt across places and time,

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Speaker 2: resulting in numerous variations with common themes and ideas.

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Speaker 1: Besides, Germany was not.

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Speaker 2: The only place where children were abandoned in the woods.

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Speaker 2: One was written by Italian author John Battista Bazille, who

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Speaker 2: was born in fifteen sixty six and died in sixteen

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Speaker 2: thirty two. His version, Nanillo and Nanilla was published after

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Speaker 2: his death, although.

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Speaker 1: The published day is unknown.

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Speaker 2: But in this one, it's a stepmother, not the mother,

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Speaker 2: who forces the father to abandon the children. The two

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Speaker 2: kids are separated by the howling of a prince's hounds.

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Speaker 2: The young boy is taken in by the prince. The

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Speaker 2: sister by pirates. When the pirates are attacked and shipwrecked,

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Speaker 2: a large magical fish swallows her whole, and she grows

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Speaker 2: up in a mansion inside the fish's belly. Years later,

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Speaker 2: the sister catches sight of her brother on shore, and

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Speaker 2: they are reunited when the fish delivers her to him.

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Speaker 2: The prince in puts out a to find their father,

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Speaker 2: who eventually shows up at the castle, glad to see

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Speaker 2: his children are safe and alive. As for the cruel stepmother,

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Speaker 2: she is put in a cask and rolled down a mountain.

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Speaker 2: Remember Charles Perraut, He's a French author who wrote the

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Speaker 2: magical version of Cinderella that Disney pulled from. He also

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Speaker 2: wrote a story like Hansel and Gretel. His came more

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Speaker 2: than a century before the Grims, in sixteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 2: titled The Little Thumb. In Pierrot's story, a father and

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Speaker 2: mother have seven children. The mother never has less than

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Speaker 2: two at a time. There's nothing magical about it. She

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Speaker 2: just happens to love kids. Her youngest is named Little

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Speaker 2: Thumb because he's born as small as a person's thumb.

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Speaker 2: The father is a one who says the children.

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Speaker 1: Must be abandoned.

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Speaker 2: It's a mother who is absolutely against the idea, but

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Speaker 2: eventually the father wears her down. The next day, the

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Speaker 2: brothers are led into the woods the first time. The

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Speaker 2: boys find their way back using pebbles little Thumb had

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Speaker 2: tossed to the ground to leave a trail.

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Speaker 1: When they return.

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Speaker 2: Initially, everyone is happy because the parents had run into

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Speaker 2: some money so there was food for all. But when

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Speaker 2: the money runs out and their bellies are hungry, the

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Speaker 2: parents take their kids to the woods a second time. Again,

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Speaker 2: the mother is against it, but the father pushes.

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Speaker 1: Her into making this decision.

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Speaker 2: The second time, the seven brothers get lost in the

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Speaker 2: woods and end up at an ogre's house. The ogre's

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Speaker 2: wife wants to protect the boys from her husband, who

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Speaker 2: wants to kill and eat them. The ogre and Ogris

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Speaker 2: have seven daughters who have already bitten and drink the

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Speaker 2: blood of human kids. To save himself and his brothers,

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Speaker 2: Thumb tricks the Ogre into slitting the throats of his daughters.

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Speaker 2: Thumb and his brothers then make run for it.

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Speaker 1: When the Ogre realizes what.

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Speaker 2: He's done, he puts on his magical seven League boots

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Speaker 2: to hunt the boys down. Seven League boots allow the

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Speaker 2: wearer to travel seven leagues per step, which of course

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Speaker 2: enables a person to cover great distances in a short time.

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Speaker 2: The boys see the ogre coming and hide behind a rock.

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Speaker 2: The ogre, who's very tired from wearing the boots, lays

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Speaker 2: down for a nap, which happens to be by the

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Speaker 2: same rock where the boys are hiding.

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Speaker 1: Thumb tells his brothers to head home, and they do.

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Speaker 2: Meanwhile, them puts on the boots and heads back to

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Speaker 2: the ogre's wife.

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Speaker 1: He tells her that her.

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Speaker 2: Husband has been captured by a gang of thieves and

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Speaker 2: he needs all the gold and silver to save him.

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Speaker 2: She of course gives him the gold and silver. Her

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Speaker 2: husband might eat children, but he is a good husband. Now,

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Speaker 2: there are two endings to this story. Perrot wrote both

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Speaker 2: within the same story, although it's uncle clear why. The

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Speaker 2: first is that Thumb heads home with all the Ogre's

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Speaker 2: money and is received with great joy. But in Perou's

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Speaker 2: alternate version, the little Thumb doesn't get any money from

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Speaker 2: the ogre's wife. Instead, he takes the seven league boots

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Speaker 2: and heads to court, where he speaks with the king

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Speaker 2: and helps with the war. After serving for a while

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Speaker 2: and getting rich. It's only then them returns home and

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Speaker 2: is received with great joy. While Basili's story involves child abandonment,

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Speaker 2: it lacks cannibalism.

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Speaker 1: It's also more in line with.

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Speaker 2: A traditional fairy tale and that it has a clear

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Speaker 2: and decisive, happy ending. Pero's is different in that the

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Speaker 2: roles of the mother and father are reversed, and while

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Speaker 2: it still involves child abandonment, cannibalism still plays a factor. However,

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Speaker 2: there is something to be said about the ogress wanting

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Speaker 2: to protect the seven brothers, So what about Hansel and Gretel.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: As time win on, Hansel and Gretel's roots became too

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Speaker 2: dark even for the Brother's Graham. My first memories of

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Speaker 2: Hansel and Gretel always include the stepmother. It was a

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Speaker 2: stepmother who came up with the idea to abandon the kids.

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Speaker 2: It was a stepmother who convinced a father to go

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Speaker 2: along with the plan. It was a stepmother who felt

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Speaker 2: no remorse about leaving two children alone in the woods.

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Speaker 2: But as you heard at the beginning of this episode,

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Speaker 2: the original Brother's Graham story didn't have a stepmother. It

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Speaker 2: was a children's biological mother who did all of those things.

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Speaker 2: Even for Jacob and Wilhelm. This soon became too dark

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Speaker 2: for them.

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Speaker 1: How could a mother abandon.

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Speaker 2: Her own children? It was too dark a mark on motherhood.

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Speaker 2: So by the time their fourth collection was published, the

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Speaker 2: mother had become the stepmother. Also, after the mother became

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Speaker 2: a stepmother, she went from being portrayed as practical to mean,

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Speaker 2: even abusive. She called both a husband and children names

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Speaker 2: like fool and lazy bones, and was more apt to

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Speaker 2: criticize and scold. The father evolved into a more sympathetic character.

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Speaker 2: This is shown through changes made in his dialogue. There's

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Speaker 2: one line that is added in the later version where

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Speaker 2: the father says, but I do feel sorry for the

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Speaker 2: poor children. By the time the final edition was published

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Speaker 2: in eighteen fifty seven, the Brother's Grim had made even

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Speaker 2: more changes. Not only had the family dynamics changed, but

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Speaker 2: it had become more of a fairy tale. For example,

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Speaker 2: at the end of the final story, the children come

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Speaker 2: to a large body of water they can't cross, so

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Speaker 2: they call out and a duckling carries him across, one

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Speaker 2: at a time before finally making a home.

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Speaker 1: To their father.

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Speaker 2: And as the years passed, Hansel and Gretel drifted even

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Speaker 2: further from its dark, twisted roots. In eighteen ninety three,

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Speaker 2: composer Engelbert Humperdink wrote an opera that is still performed

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Speaker 2: widely today. In his story, Hansel and Gretel's father is

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Speaker 2: a broommaker. The children are home when Hansel complains he's hungry,

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Speaker 2: so Gretel shows him milk the neighbors have given them.

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Speaker 2: The kids are happy and danced and end up knocking

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Speaker 2: the milk over. Their mother, who is their biological mother,

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Speaker 2: is furious with the children, so she sends them to

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Speaker 2: pick strawberries. Notice this isn't based on malice or coldness.

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Speaker 2: This is just one of those hey, you spilled the milk,

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Speaker 2: now clean it up kind of things. But when the

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Speaker 2: dad returns home and the wife tells him where the

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Speaker 2: kids are, he tells her about the witch that lives

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Speaker 2: in the woods. Both parents are worried and immediately set

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Speaker 2: out searching for their kids. This all happens in Act one.

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Speaker 2: From there things become even more fantastical. An act two,

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00:20:09,925 --> 00:20:13,045
Speaker 2: Hansel admits he's lost the way, and then a magical

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Speaker 2: bang called the Sandman comes and puts kids to sleep.

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00:20:16,965 --> 00:20:20,245
Speaker 2: Then an act three, Hansel and Gretel are woken by

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Speaker 2: the dew fairy and see the gingerbread house where the

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Speaker 2: witch lives.

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Speaker 1: But they don't see the witch.

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Speaker 2: Things are per usual here, with the witch getting shoved

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Speaker 2: and burned in the oven and Hansel and Gretel escaping,

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00:20:33,725 --> 00:20:38,365
Speaker 2: except with a lot more spell casting. Also, after the

346
00:20:38,405 --> 00:20:41,605
Speaker 2: witch is shoved into the oven, it explodes, and then

347
00:20:41,765 --> 00:20:44,565
Speaker 2: all the children that had been captured and turned into

348
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Speaker 2: gingerbread before Hansel and Gretel are turned back into children.

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Speaker 2: It's not clear if the other kids may get home

350
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Speaker 2: to their parents, but overall it's portrayed as a happy

351
00:20:54,645 --> 00:20:58,405
Speaker 2: ending for everyone. It's a far cry from the original

352
00:20:58,445 --> 00:21:02,485
Speaker 2: grim tale of food insecurity, starvation, and child abandonment. And

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00:21:02,565 --> 00:21:05,365
Speaker 2: while Graham had a witch and at some point a duck,

354
00:21:05,645 --> 00:21:08,085
Speaker 2: it did not have a magic wand or spells or

355
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Speaker 2: a sandman. Ray harry Hausen dropped to stop motion animation

356
00:21:16,925 --> 00:21:21,485
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty one. The story once again has changed completely.

357
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Speaker 2: In this story, Handel and Gretel head into the woods

358
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Speaker 2: to forts for food to help their dad, who is

359
00:21:28,125 --> 00:21:30,685
Speaker 2: stressed trying to keep in a food on the table.

360
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Speaker 2: What's important to note here is they choose to go

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Speaker 2: into the woods entirely of their own free will. After

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Speaker 2: their mini ordeals, they are of course rewarded with gold, silver,

363
00:21:42,285 --> 00:21:45,885
Speaker 2: and precious jewels. Each version of Handel and Gretel has

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00:21:45,925 --> 00:21:50,565
Speaker 2: its own moral, but this one was specifically about familial bonds.

365
00:21:51,245 --> 00:21:55,965
Speaker 2: During the nineteen fifties, nuclear families were important, meaning a mother, father,

366
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Speaker 2: and children. Divorce was majorly looked down upon, so value

367
00:22:00,605 --> 00:22:03,885
Speaker 2: was placed on keeping the family together. This is shown

368
00:22:03,925 --> 00:22:06,365
Speaker 2: through Harry Hausen's stop motion and that it was about

369
00:22:06,365 --> 00:22:09,285
Speaker 2: the children wanting to help their father rather than the

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Speaker 2: father or parents betraying the children.

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Speaker 1: The entire ordeal.

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Speaker 2: Strengthened the family's relationship, and then in nineteen eighty three,

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Speaker 2: the story was stripped down even further with Shelley Devall's

374
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Speaker 2: Fairytale Theater, which was created for television. The big takeaway

375
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Speaker 2: from the Fairytale Theater is that it's a cautionary tale

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Speaker 2: for kids to not take candy from strangers. In the

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Speaker 2: early two thousands, there were a couple more remakes. Hansel

378
00:22:38,445 --> 00:22:41,405
Speaker 2: and Gretel Get Baked was a weird, trippy movie released

379
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Speaker 2: in twenty thirteen that involved a witch, grawing Weed, and

380
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Speaker 2: two kids who liked to get high. There's a witch who,

381
00:22:51,525 --> 00:22:55,245
Speaker 2: in order to stay young, kills and eats teenagers, and

382
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Speaker 2: instead of a gingerbread house, she uses a special brand

383
00:22:58,525 --> 00:23:02,205
Speaker 2: of weed to lure them to her place. In the movie,

384
00:23:02,365 --> 00:23:05,405
Speaker 2: Gretel's boyfriend introduces her to a strain of weed called

385
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Speaker 2: black Forest. Gretel makes him go get more, and he

386
00:23:09,805 --> 00:23:12,605
Speaker 2: gets taken and eaten by the witch, whose name is Agnes.

387
00:23:13,325 --> 00:23:16,125
Speaker 2: Gretel convinces Hansel to come with her to search for

388
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Speaker 2: her boyfriend, where they inevitably battle the witch.

389
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Speaker 1: The two escape, but so does Agnes.

390
00:23:25,005 --> 00:23:29,445
Speaker 2: Also in twenty thirteen, Hansel and Gretel Witch Hunters was released.

391
00:23:30,165 --> 00:23:33,845
Speaker 2: The movie picks up fifteen years after Hansel and Gretel

392
00:23:33,965 --> 00:23:36,565
Speaker 2: burn the witch in the oven. The two have become

393
00:23:36,685 --> 00:23:39,885
Speaker 2: hell bent on revenge by hunting down and killing witches.

394
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Speaker 1: What they don't know is not every.

395
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Speaker 2: Witch's bad, and as a movie unfolds, you learn Hansel

396
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Speaker 2: and Gretel's mother was the original white Witch. Now the

397
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Speaker 2: head of the coven of the Bad Witches needs Gretel's

398
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Speaker 2: heart to complete a ceremony. What I found interesting here

399
00:24:00,325 --> 00:24:03,685
Speaker 2: was how they transformed the character of the witch. I

400
00:24:03,725 --> 00:24:06,205
Speaker 2: would argue the presence of the good, good, and bad

401
00:24:06,245 --> 00:24:08,965
Speaker 2: witch in the Witch Hunters shows a shift in how

402
00:24:09,005 --> 00:24:12,725
Speaker 2: we view women now and the brothers Grim tales witches

403
00:24:12,765 --> 00:24:17,645
Speaker 2: were always evil, They ate children, tortured people, and overall

404
00:24:17,765 --> 00:24:21,445
Speaker 2: weren't to be trusted. But more so, the fear around

405
00:24:21,485 --> 00:24:25,765
Speaker 2: witches was that they were women, women who showed independence

406
00:24:26,045 --> 00:24:30,365
Speaker 2: or owned their agency, or defy typical gender roles. It

407
00:24:30,445 --> 00:24:33,365
Speaker 2: was those women who lived during the Grim's time who

408
00:24:33,405 --> 00:24:38,165
Speaker 2: are considered the real threat. Folkloris and retired professor Jack

409
00:24:38,325 --> 00:24:41,205
Speaker 2: Zipes also believes there's been a recent shift in how

410
00:24:41,245 --> 00:24:45,645
Speaker 2: witches are viewed. Zips has written, translated, and critiqued many

411
00:24:45,645 --> 00:24:48,405
Speaker 2: fairy tales and continues to do public engagements.

412
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Speaker 4: So what has happened in Western societies is that the

413
00:24:54,565 --> 00:25:00,645
Speaker 4: witch has no longer become dangerous because the women's movement,

414
00:25:01,125 --> 00:25:07,325
Speaker 4: the way women have fought for their own independence, has

415
00:25:07,405 --> 00:25:12,245
Speaker 4: made tremendous gains in most Western societies. Not in the

416
00:25:12,285 --> 00:25:16,765
Speaker 4: Middle East, not in India or China or other places,

417
00:25:16,925 --> 00:25:21,205
Speaker 4: but in Western societies. Women like to be called witches.

418
00:25:21,285 --> 00:25:25,565
Speaker 4: They have taken over the witch, and they formed groups

419
00:25:25,605 --> 00:25:29,245
Speaker 4: called the witches, and they're proud and they have deflated

420
00:25:29,965 --> 00:25:35,925
Speaker 4: the critique of women who are called witches and shown

421
00:25:36,285 --> 00:25:39,405
Speaker 4: that we in society has gotten everything wrong, and so

422
00:25:40,005 --> 00:25:45,765
Speaker 4: tales about witches today are much softer or unusual or whatever,

423
00:25:46,125 --> 00:25:51,165
Speaker 4: But they do not show women more or less as killers,

424
00:25:51,325 --> 00:25:55,165
Speaker 4: as eaters, as cannibals, and things like that.

425
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Speaker 2: The same can be said at the twenty twenty movie

426
00:25:58,805 --> 00:26:04,605
Speaker 2: Gretel and Hansel. The first most notable change is that

427
00:26:04,605 --> 00:26:08,445
Speaker 2: Gretel's name is first in the title. The second is

428
00:26:08,485 --> 00:26:11,405
Speaker 2: that at the end, while the witch is killed, Gretel

429
00:26:11,485 --> 00:26:15,485
Speaker 2: starts to become a witch herself. The movie sets itself

430
00:26:15,485 --> 00:26:19,445
Speaker 2: apart at the beginning by creating different stakes. Their father

431
00:26:19,565 --> 00:26:21,925
Speaker 2: is already dead and the mother threatens that if they

432
00:26:21,965 --> 00:26:25,325
Speaker 2: come back, they will be killed themselves, so there is

433
00:26:25,445 --> 00:26:28,965
Speaker 2: no home to go back to. The mother also casts

434
00:26:29,005 --> 00:26:33,845
Speaker 2: out Gretel because of her affinity for magical powers. I

435
00:26:33,885 --> 00:26:36,565
Speaker 2: think this could be an argument on women taking their

436
00:26:36,565 --> 00:26:40,485
Speaker 2: power back or not shying away from it. Other articles

437
00:26:40,525 --> 00:26:43,365
Speaker 2: I've read point to this film showing a shift from

438
00:26:43,405 --> 00:26:47,845
Speaker 2: patriarchy to patriarchy and also a lesson of gender roles,

439
00:26:48,125 --> 00:26:52,165
Speaker 2: since Gretel, by circumstances, is found taking care of her

440
00:26:52,205 --> 00:26:55,245
Speaker 2: brother at such a young age, at least at the

441
00:26:55,285 --> 00:27:03,645
Speaker 2: beginning of the film, but at the end, after the

442
00:27:03,685 --> 00:27:06,525
Speaker 2: witch is killed and the two are free, they each

443
00:27:06,605 --> 00:27:10,485
Speaker 2: go their own way, Hansel to the foresters, who are

444
00:27:10,605 --> 00:27:13,085
Speaker 2: basically people who help to take care of the forest,

445
00:27:13,645 --> 00:27:17,365
Speaker 2: and Gretel to learn more about herself and her powers.

446
00:27:18,005 --> 00:27:19,125
Speaker 1: But let's back.

447
00:27:19,045 --> 00:27:22,245
Speaker 2: Up a bit, because while remakes and revisions of the

448
00:27:22,285 --> 00:27:25,525
Speaker 2: original tale are being fit for the big screen, there's

449
00:27:25,605 --> 00:27:28,445
Speaker 2: one author who took Hansel and Gretel back to its

450
00:27:28,485 --> 00:27:39,365
Speaker 2: tragic roots, just in a slightly different way. Known best

451
00:27:39,445 --> 00:27:42,725
Speaker 2: for his graphic novels The Sandman and his novels like

452
00:27:42,765 --> 00:27:47,605
Speaker 2: Stardust and American Gods, Neil Gaiman does not shy away

453
00:27:47,805 --> 00:27:52,405
Speaker 2: from horror or hardships. In fact, all of his stories

454
00:27:52,565 --> 00:27:57,285
Speaker 2: center on uncomfortable truths, and in twenty fourteen, he and

455
00:27:57,445 --> 00:28:01,805
Speaker 2: illustrator Lorenzo Matati teamed up to create their own version

456
00:28:01,925 --> 00:28:08,845
Speaker 2: of Hansel and Gretel. In Gayman's retelling, the family is poor,

457
00:28:09,085 --> 00:28:11,885
Speaker 2: but they still have enough to eat. They catch game

458
00:28:11,925 --> 00:28:15,245
Speaker 2: in the woods, dig up vegetables from the gardens. When

459
00:28:15,245 --> 00:28:17,925
Speaker 2: they have enough money, their pop brings home chunks of meat.

460
00:28:18,325 --> 00:28:21,445
Speaker 2: There was freshly baked bread and cook cabbage and eggs

461
00:28:21,485 --> 00:28:22,125
Speaker 2: on their table.

462
00:28:22,885 --> 00:28:25,005
Speaker 1: The family wasn't necessarily happy.

463
00:28:25,725 --> 00:28:29,285
Speaker 2: Gamon describes their mother as sharp tongued and their father

464
00:28:29,485 --> 00:28:33,045
Speaker 2: as sullen. The father doesn't always want to be around

465
00:28:33,085 --> 00:28:36,525
Speaker 2: the kids, but those were the good days because that

466
00:28:37,045 --> 00:28:40,565
Speaker 2: was before the war. Gamon was intentional on how he

467
00:28:40,645 --> 00:28:44,165
Speaker 2: described the war. He never said when, who, or where.

468
00:28:44,685 --> 00:28:47,805
Speaker 2: He never had Hansel and Gretel's family chose side. In

469
00:28:47,845 --> 00:28:50,645
Speaker 2: this way, the story can be applied to any war

470
00:28:51,045 --> 00:28:55,365
Speaker 2: in their family, to everyone who is affected. As the

471
00:28:55,405 --> 00:28:58,285
Speaker 2: war drags on, there is no food to be found,

472
00:28:58,725 --> 00:29:01,125
Speaker 2: and that is when the mother mentions to the father

473
00:29:01,405 --> 00:29:04,165
Speaker 2: that they must take the kids to the woods. The

474
00:29:04,285 --> 00:29:07,725
Speaker 2: ending is also different. Not only do the children return

475
00:29:07,805 --> 00:29:10,485
Speaker 2: to a happy father and a dead mother, but in

476
00:29:10,525 --> 00:29:13,325
Speaker 2: the years that followed there were no more empty plates,

477
00:29:13,765 --> 00:29:16,405
Speaker 2: and when Hansel and Gretel got married, there was so

478
00:29:16,565 --> 00:29:18,725
Speaker 2: much food at their weddings that the fat from the

479
00:29:18,765 --> 00:29:24,645
Speaker 2: meat written down their chins. I feel Gaymon's version of

480
00:29:24,725 --> 00:29:28,605
Speaker 2: Hansel and Gretel is the most important retelling. Other versions

481
00:29:28,605 --> 00:29:31,765
Speaker 2: softened the original story, basically taking out its teeth and

482
00:29:31,805 --> 00:29:35,805
Speaker 2: watering it down. Gaiman's version restored some of the initial

483
00:29:35,885 --> 00:29:39,445
Speaker 2: integrity of Hansel and Gretel being about famine and child abandonment,

484
00:29:40,365 --> 00:29:43,845
Speaker 2: But as retired professor Jack Zeipes points out, war is

485
00:29:44,005 --> 00:29:46,845
Speaker 2: not the only reason for child abandonment.

486
00:29:48,125 --> 00:29:53,645
Speaker 4: And it's popular today because we abandoned children. We abuse children.

487
00:29:54,125 --> 00:29:56,725
Speaker 4: You know, you can talk about all the people who

488
00:29:56,725 --> 00:29:59,725
Speaker 4: are coming to our country from South America who send

489
00:29:59,805 --> 00:30:03,445
Speaker 4: their children ahead of themselves because they can't get there,

490
00:30:03,805 --> 00:30:07,365
Speaker 4: but the children might be They pray, probably you know

491
00:30:07,445 --> 00:30:09,485
Speaker 4: that the children will have a better life that they

492
00:30:09,485 --> 00:30:12,765
Speaker 4: get to America, but they abandon them on the border.

493
00:30:12,845 --> 00:30:17,525
Speaker 4: There are tons of children who have been abandoned by

494
00:30:17,525 --> 00:30:21,565
Speaker 4: their parents because they don't know what to do. And

495
00:30:21,605 --> 00:30:26,525
Speaker 4: so why do we continue to read, listen, and play

496
00:30:26,885 --> 00:30:30,525
Speaker 4: with this particular tale. It's because of the fact that

497
00:30:30,565 --> 00:30:35,045
Speaker 4: we haven't resolved this. We have not developed the conditions

498
00:30:35,125 --> 00:30:39,205
Speaker 4: that we should develop that will enable poor people to

499
00:30:39,565 --> 00:30:44,765
Speaker 4: lead fulfilled lives. And this tale deals with that question.

500
00:30:44,845 --> 00:30:49,205
Speaker 4: It deals with why we abandon children leave them. But

501
00:30:49,325 --> 00:30:54,085
Speaker 4: the whole question of abandonment of children hasn't gone away today,

502
00:30:54,565 --> 00:30:57,845
Speaker 4: and that's why Hansel and Gretel is so significant.

503
00:31:05,485 --> 00:31:08,445
Speaker 2: There are different reasons why children go hungry, or why

504
00:31:08,525 --> 00:31:09,565
Speaker 2: they're just abandoned.

505
00:31:10,165 --> 00:31:12,045
Speaker 1: It can be argued children.

506
00:31:12,205 --> 00:31:15,725
Speaker 2: Are left behind out of love or selfishness, but it's

507
00:31:15,845 --> 00:31:20,085
Speaker 2: never really that simple. While Hansel and Grettel is a

508
00:31:20,125 --> 00:31:23,805
Speaker 2: fairy tale, it's not meant to be easily digested. In

509
00:31:23,845 --> 00:31:27,405
Speaker 2: an article Claire McBride wrote for sci Fi, she said,

510
00:31:27,485 --> 00:31:31,085
Speaker 2: quote the idea that when famine comes, the people who

511
00:31:31,165 --> 00:31:34,365
Speaker 2: are meant to care for you will fail you. Handol

512
00:31:34,445 --> 00:31:37,365
Speaker 2: and Bruttel contend not only with their mother, but with

513
00:31:37,445 --> 00:31:40,885
Speaker 2: their father's and ability to protect them from the consequences

514
00:31:40,885 --> 00:31:45,645
Speaker 2: of famine and the fairy tale. After the children successfully

515
00:31:45,725 --> 00:31:49,485
Speaker 2: kill the witch, the mother dies, suggesting a connection between

516
00:31:49,525 --> 00:31:50,485
Speaker 2: the two characters.

517
00:31:51,285 --> 00:31:53,005
Speaker 1: The one trying to survive.

518
00:31:52,765 --> 00:31:55,765
Speaker 2: By abandoning the children and the one trying to survive

519
00:31:55,885 --> 00:31:59,085
Speaker 2: by eating them might be one and the same, just

520
00:31:59,125 --> 00:32:01,165
Speaker 2: at different points in their desperation.

521
00:32:01,965 --> 00:32:04,325
Speaker 1: End quote Hanslin.

522
00:32:04,405 --> 00:32:07,645
Speaker 2: Grettel was intended to encompass the hardships of hunger and

523
00:32:07,725 --> 00:32:10,765
Speaker 2: what people will do to survive, but Decades chose to

524
00:32:10,805 --> 00:32:12,885
Speaker 2: soften the blow in the end.

525
00:32:13,045 --> 00:32:16,725
Speaker 5: As Zipe says, most important thing is to bear in

526
00:32:16,765 --> 00:32:20,845
Speaker 5: mind when these tales were collected, why they'd be so

527
00:32:20,925 --> 00:32:25,285
Speaker 5: significant in Europe at that time and why they have

528
00:32:25,445 --> 00:32:29,325
Speaker 5: stuck with us because we live in a society we

529
00:32:29,605 --> 00:32:37,245
Speaker 5: abandon children, we exploit children. Children are really not socialized,

530
00:32:37,645 --> 00:32:47,645
Speaker 5: and so this tale will never go away.

531
00:32:48,765 --> 00:32:52,205
Speaker 2: Next time, beware those who say they want to help.

532
00:32:52,645 --> 00:32:54,325
Speaker 1: It always comes with a price.

533
00:32:58,325 --> 00:33:01,005
Speaker 2: The Deep Dark Woods is a production of School Humans

534
00:33:01,045 --> 00:33:05,285
Speaker 2: and iHeart Podcasts. It was created, written, and hosted by

535
00:33:05,325 --> 00:33:09,765
Speaker 2: me Miranda Hawkins. This episode was produced by mikel June

536
00:33:10,005 --> 00:33:15,085
Speaker 2: was senior producer Gabby Watts. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott,

537
00:33:15,445 --> 00:33:20,325
Speaker 2: Brandon Barr, Elsie Crowley, and Maya Howard. Stories were voiced

538
00:33:20,405 --> 00:33:25,085
Speaker 2: by Julia Christgau. Theme song was composed by Jesse Niswanger,

539
00:33:25,245 --> 00:33:28,885
Speaker 2: who also sound designed and mixed this episode. If you

540
00:33:29,045 --> 00:33:32,445
Speaker 2: enjoyed this show, please leave a review and you can

541
00:33:32,485 --> 00:33:35,085
Speaker 2: follow along with the show on Instagram at School of

542
00:33:35,125 --> 00:33:50,805
Speaker 2: Humans