WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 158 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:06.040 Alsome Media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.080 to let you know this is a compilation episode. So 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.840 every episode of the week that just happened is here 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:16.759 in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:18.960 you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:21.520 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:23.279 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:25.000 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:31.720 Hello, and welcome to It Can Happen Here podcast about 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:35.519 things falling apart and people putting them back together. I 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:37.360 am back after us for a lengthy court battle, have 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.080 been allowed to return to the podcast, which I'm very 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:43.159 grateful for. And I'm joined today by John and Haval, 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:45.760 two friends of mine who volunteer out here in Cucumber 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:47.760 a lot, a lot more than I do, and we're 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.000 going to explain some developments that have happened, give you 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:53.120 all an update on the situation here, and let you 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:55.040 know how you could help soon. Welcome to the show, 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:55.480 both of you. 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:57.240 Hello, thank you, good to be back. 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.520 Yeah, welcome back. If you'd like to just introduce yourself, 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:04.119 like your name, like whatever role you play out here, 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:09.080 pronouns and any affiliation with any organization you feel is relevant. 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.679 So my name is John. I'm someone that lives in 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:16.280 the area. This situation just kind of showed up in 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:21.240 my backyard. I was kind of forced into it rather 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:23.920 than volunteered into it, and I've been dealing with it 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:26.880 NonStop since the beginning. Yeah, I'm one of the main 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:28.919 sets of boots on the ground. 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.560 Have all I used, they them pronouns, and I organized 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.440 with Direct Action, Drumline and Zene Distro doing a lot 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:39.880 of mutual aid, which is how I got involved in 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:42.840 all this, and also with Alo Gelato helping out on 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.880 the ground since the beginning with John, pretty much just 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:47.960 a little after John started. 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:53.440 So yeah, so that's what nearly six months if you're 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.440 not counting me. Yeah, yeah, wow yeah. 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.400 So yeah, it started in May and then it stopped 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.120 during the summer time. It picked up again in September, 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:04.160 and we've been dealing with it NonStop. 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:06.840 Since the people have heard briefly from John's father Sam 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:11.000 in our May episodes about Title forty two, which we did. Yeah, 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.519 it seems like forever ago. It also doesn't seem like 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:18.040 very long ago. It's just one big weird collapsing of time. 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:23.640 So last time we spoke, last time I spoke with Haval, 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:26.679 we had this situation where we had three distinct concrete 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:31.760 camps right adjacent to gaps in the wall, which volunteers 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:37.560 were servicing with food, water, warm blankets, were building shelters, 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.799 and we've heard a lot about those camps. Does one 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.760 of you guys want to explain how things have changed 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.000 since then, and really particularly in the last six weeks. 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:49.880 So, yeah, it's changed quite radically. 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:54.240 Actually, So between the months of September and December, we 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.000 were servicing these three camps kind of more or less 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:58.040 in our immediate area. 0:02:58.600 --> 0:02:59.799 It was pretty straightforward. 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.959 Our routine would consist of stopping to each camp two 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:06.919 times a day and feeding people, providing them with all 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.240 of the different things that the US government was not 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.799 and I kind of wish things were simpler like they 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:15.440 were back then. 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:16.079 Yeah. 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.760 So at the end of the month of December, Secretary 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.920 Blincoln made a visit to Mexico, and I suspect that 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:28.520 he pressured the Mexican government to police our border for US. 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:31.800 One of the immediate changes. 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.200 That we saw as a result of that was the 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:37.960 foundation of two Mexican National Guard camps at two of 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.440 the gaps that feed into those camps in our area, 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:47.800 and that has basically stopped any people coming through those areas. 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:51.920 This has not made any less people come into the country. Actually, 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:55.600 the numbers have been fairly consistent. It's just that people 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:59.240 have been forced to go in through other areas. So 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.960 there've been many many new oads that have popped up 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.400 west of us. We have to drive quite a bit 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:10.160 further into towards San Diego to go and service those areas, 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:14.840 the main one being Sliders, which we're seeing about two 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.400 hundred people come in sometimes in a night. 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.080 It's it's not a good scene. 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:24.680 Whereas those three ones that we were originally servicing had 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:27.440 dumpsters and porta potties at the very least. 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:28.080 Yeah, they still do. 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.360 They still still there exactly. 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:33.040 Yeah, I'm moving at the speed of government. 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.680 The new ones don't have that and people are having 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.800 to spend Well, how long were the people there most 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.280 during that crazy, crazy time, just like a few days ago. 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:45.840 I think they were up. They were there for up 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:47.119 to like nineteen hours. 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:49.799 See it going on a day right now. Yeah, because 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:53.120 we first to back crack to people like we heard 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.120 from a member of the community that there have been 0:04:55.160 --> 0:05:00.039 people seen held there right at sliders. And then we 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.800 went out there and we kept finding like warm fires, 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:07.040 like where people hopefully been there and built fires. We 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:09.880 could see where people have scavenged to brush, and a. 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:11.800 Lot of documents ripped up around there. 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.920 Yeah, the little hill signs, Yeah, yeah, all these signs, 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.200 And so we were able to use that to suppose 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:19.479 that was a place where people were and then I 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:21.760 guess was it. Eventually someone stayed the night there and 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:24.039 that was what allowed us we bumped into people there. 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:25.279 Someone bumped into people there. 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.359 Well, we have an acquaintance that's been very helpful towards 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.400 the cause that lives just close by to there, and 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:32.960 he's kind. 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:34.320 Of one of the one that sounded the alarm. 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:37.680 And from there, it's like you said, it's a lot 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.760 more difficult, right, Like it's probably a thirty minute drive. 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:43.560 It's a steep off road, so like when it rains, 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:45.800 it's hard to get to, So that makes it more 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:50.080 difficult for us to provide stuff for people there. And like, 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.040 I guess people should realize that we didn't find out 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.320 about this because Border Patrol called us and said like, hey, 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.120 there are people here without food, water, or show they 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:58.560 don't do that. But yeah, that's not a thing that 0:05:58.560 --> 0:05:58.800 they did. 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:00.360 We actually did one. 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.919 Another volunteer, Brendan and I were driving out and we. 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:04.560 Stopped on the road. 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.479 I don't think you were with us, John, but we 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:09.440 started talking to one of the agents because there was 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.000 two or a group of people from I think Egypt. 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.000 That was the day everyone did the mass exodus from 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:18.240 one seven seven. So we stopped and we're talking to 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:20.280 one of the agents and he did slip that there 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.400 was another camp. He didn't name it, didn't say where 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:24.280 it was, he just said it was that way. And 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.520 that was around the same time that Morgan had mentioned 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:28.320 it to us. So it's you know, we kind of 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:30.600 pulled it out of this agent because we were talking 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.919 very nonchalantly with him and he was being generally nice. 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:36.560 But yeah, they don't tell us about this stuff. 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.200 Yeah, and we have to find him myself. And what 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.520 I think that brings up is that there are potentially. 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:44.600 More, right we think know for a fact there are. 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:48.039 We know that there are more, and like I think 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:50.480 it's obviously people and people think of California and I 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:52.040 think of La and I think of San Diego and 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:54.000 they think of the beach and like pleasant weather. But 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:56.920 can you explain, like, it's been really cold out here. 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.719 I'm pretty miserable right with the wet weather we've been having. 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.000 Pretty unknown part of southern California. You know, we're a 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.960 mountainous region just just east of San Diego, within San 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:11.480 Diego County. It's I mean it's not it's not crazy high. 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:13.560 It's you know, it's about on an average of three 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.440 thousand or four thousand feet above sea level. But yeah, 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.360 it gets very windy over here, gets very unpleasant. It 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:20.720 often drops down of freezing. 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:24.680 Yeah, and that's if you're out there all night and 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:26.800 you have any shelter and any anyway to get warm 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:29.520 and you're potentially wet from crossing a river or crossing 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:31.720 a stream that often pops up in the desert. Can 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.040 be a really miserable situation. So, like, it's important that 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.000 these people receive help. And right now it's just through 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.720 word of mouth and the local community that we're able 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:42.320 to find them right and give them that help. 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:43.240 Yeah. 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:49.480 Yeah, So going forward, like we've seen like this movement 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:54.160 of migration west, what does that mean for the ability 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.000 of volunteers to provide services to migrants, And what does 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.280 it mean for the safety Like you said that the 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.000 push factors haven't changed, right, So people are still coming here. 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.680 They still have things to get away from that lead 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:09.720 them to come here, but they're not coming the same 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:11.920 way where we could so easily help them in these 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:12.960 three concrete sites. 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.440 So like, what does that mean, Well, it's uh, takes 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:18.320 a lot more time out of our day just to 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:22.560 drive there. For one, the main one, Sliders is up 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:24.600 a very shitty road. 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.240 Yeah, so I think they call it sliders because it's 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.600 so muddy and slidy over there when you're trying to 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:30.280 be Yeah. 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:32.080 I put someone's head into the roof of my trucks 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:34.240 driving that so long ago. 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:36.360 Yeah, And uh, you know, we're not the only ones 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.480 that are displeased with this. It's more it makes the 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.360 life for the border patrol more difficult, makes life for 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:45.000 the emergency medical services more difficult, and of course it 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.280 makes life for the migrants more miserable. And the owner 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.200 of the property and the owners of the property in 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.840 which they're hosting these you know, detaining these migrants. 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.640 Yeah, we I think every single one has been on 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.240 private property, so far right. And I think we spoke 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:01.800 to most of the property owners at this point and 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:03.400 it just seems to come out of the blue at them. 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:04.600 It's it's very. 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:06.640 Strange, permission is never sought. 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.840 Yeah, and I think one of them is suing the 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.240 Border Patrol for it, but fake months. But obviously it 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.600 does have an impact on a landscape as well. People 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:18.200 understand to be a coal so they're cutting down whatever 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:20.920 they can to burn to make shelter, to make their 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:22.439 experience a little bit less miserable. 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:24.400 So that's the Yeah, that's that's kind of a. 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:29.960 Bargaining tool that we try and use when trying to 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:32.600 convince the property owners to allow us to build shelters 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.240 over there. It's just to try and convince them that 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:38.199 it'll be good for them to have migrants not be 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.560 in a position to be forced to have to cut 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:42.960 down the vegetation on their land and trash their land. 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:46.880 And you know, by allowing us to build shelters on 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.680 their property and give firewood to the to the to 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.280 the migrants that are being held on their property, it's 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:54.800 better for them in the long run. 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:55.200 Yeah. 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:57.040 And the first time we went out there, they had 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.000 created these shelters by just ripping brush and creating these 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.520 like semi circles that were maybe about a footage. 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:04.680 Some of them are very impressive. Yeah, yeah, like. 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:07.200 Two three feet high and it was nice, you know, 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.040 and enclosed, so they had some sort of shelter. But yeah, 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:12.400 they had to rip all that from the vegetation around 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:15.320 the area, which just ruins the ecosystem there, I'm sure. 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:17.520 Yeah, and it must tear up your hands as well. 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.880 It goes slowly bushes and stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's not 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.640 desirable for anyone talking of things aren't desirable. We unfortunately 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.000 have to take an advertising break, so we will do that. 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:40.160 Hit some stuff that you don't need. All right, we're back. 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.480 Those are some products and services. Now we're going to 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:48.120 talk about the way John being very local to Kumba, right, 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:51.120 how it is like organizing in a rural community, and 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:56.120 the way that obviously you have people of very disparate 0:10:56.160 --> 0:11:00.559 political leanings in the area, and like how you've managed 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:04.240 to like phrase what we're doing and to organize in 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:05.960 such a way that the very least people aren't like 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:08.080 actively pissed off at you. 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:08.760 Yeah. 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.079 So, first of all, I'm a Quaker, come from a 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:15.840 Quaker family, and first and foremost, I am doing this 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:18.600 for religious reasons, and I like to try and remind 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:21.000 people of that. So when people try and come at 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:25.680 me with anti immigrants sentiment, I just try and remind 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:28.960 them that, you know, this is basically what you're supposed 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:32.440 to do according to the Bible, and you know, to 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:36.000 hate on any of these people is very Unchristian, and 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:37.839 when I do so, it's very hard for them to 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:41.400 come at me with any of that stuff. But still, yes, 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.200 for the most part, the community over here have not 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:48.040 been very helpful towards this. They have not been very 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:51.760 enthused with all these migrants coming in, and you know, 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:56.680 they've been very regrettably misinformed about it all. They're still 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:00.440 looking at various crazy sources for their new use, like 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:02.800 YouTube channels and stuff like that, and it's kind of 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:05.199 kind of hard to believe. It's like, you guys live 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.240 in the area. You can just drive straight out there. 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.360 You can talk to me a person that you guys know, 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:13.160 yet you still choose to look up all these various 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:14.640 whack jobs on YouTube. 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:17.280 Yeah. Yeah, we've had something of a problem with the 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.120 YouTube people, right, Like, there's a whole info, a whole 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:24.319 ecosystem of right wing YouTubers that I think probably most 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.040 folks don't know about, even if you take an interest 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.240 in other like right wing conspiracy stuff, as a whole 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.520 ecosystem of right wing border YouTubers who have been I mean, 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:33.600 describe what you've seen. 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.680 Right, We've had like a new right wing fascist out 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:37.320 every day. 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.840 It seems there's Oreo Express, Anthony Aguero has been out here, 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.880 JLR Investigation JLR, Roger Ogden. 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:47.280 Was out here the other day. Classic. 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.200 It's kind of calmed down though in the last last 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:50.920 couple of days. 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:55.080 But there was a period in late February where it 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:56.960 seemed like they were coming out every single day. 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.320 Yeah, just a different guy in a different lifted jeep. 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:03.640 Yeah, exactly, just after that whole border what was it that. 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:04.600 Take back our Border? 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.959 Yeah, yeah, I got them all raled up to come out. 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.640 Actually, what really set them off to be aware of 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:12.560 all of this is when Fox did their big piece 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:14.520 out here and they were out here for multiple days. 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:16.880 Yeah, that's what kind of like turned on the tap. 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:20.600 Yeah, and that's very common anyway you go on the border, right, 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:24.640 like Fox has a border reporter Bill Malugan. People will 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.600 be familiar with Bill Malugan from publishing a story in 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.120 twenty twenty which suggested the police officer had a tampon 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.800 used tampon put in his Starbucks coffee, which was demonstrably 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.720 false and didn't really very much look like a tampon. 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.440 You can google more about that if that's interesting to you. 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:42.559 But like someone who preps should have lost a generalistic 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.920 credibility at that point, is now doing border reporting for Fox. 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:48.600 And this is when I speak to people all along 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.320 the border right here Arizona, Texas. Yeah, the stuff that 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.840 Fox puts out very strongly correlates with anti migrant sentiment, 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.520 both both locally and with like these these folks coming 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.760 in and streaming and they're always asking for donations, right, 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:05.800 Like it's not a then they're they're not like advert 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.719 funded or like publicly funded like that. They're funded by 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:09.720 donations for what. 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.559 Yeah, well, I forget the channel that Aguero is on 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:14.920 that he's constantly asking for the nations and like. 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.360 Oh, thank you, you just dropped ten dollars, thank you 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:18.320 for the five spot. 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:19.640 Other of like they're. 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.560 Sitting in his car ling'. That's what they're grifters. 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.160 That's that's what they're out there for every it seems 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:28.360 like a third of their broadcast time is spent asking 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:29.680 for donations, right. 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.120 Yeah, Yeah, it's like a like a charity stream excepted 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.760 so it's the opposite of charity, I guess exactly, So 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:37.560 pay me to do hateful things streams. Yeah, And I 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.920 think like that as we get, as we look between 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:44.320 now and November, I think it's really important that, like, 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.240 the border will be a topic that people who never 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.720 come to the border will argue about constantly between now 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:53.320 and November. Right, Fox News will have reporting on it, 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:56.040 NBC will have reporting on it, like, and both of 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.240 them will have reporting that isn't anchored on what we 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.800 see every single day out here, which is a whate 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.880 variety of people from whatever the world who are having 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:10.240 a very difficult time right here and need our help, 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:14.000 right and we're doing what we can to help them. 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.880 So I guess what, like, people who are listening to 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.320 this will in the next I don't know how long 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.480 it is to a November, what six months, seven eight months, 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:27.440 they'll have conversations with their family members, with their friends, 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:31.760 with people in bars, whatever regarding the border. What do 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:35.160 you think they should know about, like, what we're seeing, 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:40.920 and like because there's this whole border invasion narrative, right, 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.520 and like, this is not an invasion. We were just 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.800 out joking with some people and helping them get their 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.640 firewood prepped. Like these people are not a threat. 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:52.040 I think people often make the mistake of considering this 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:54.480 issue to be a political issue. It really is just 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.360 a humanitarian issue. Vast majority of the people that I've 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.200 talked to have very legitimate reasons for needing to time 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.320 into this country, whether they're from Ecuador, you know, you 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:05.840 know the situation over there recently there were gangsters that 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.760 took over a TV station, Or in Guatemala, where I 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:12.800 spoke to a man who told me that his children 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.760 with college degrees can make enough family money to feed 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:21.680 their families, or even in Afghanistan where people have literally 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:25.120 had the Taliban threatened their families lives. 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:28.400 The same with and the Iatola escaping. 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.920 Kurdish people in Turkey. I mean, the list goes on. 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.920 Or you know, climate refugees like the Mauritanians that we 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:39.400 just spoke with earlier. Yes, they're they're coming, and they 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:43.640 have really reasonable grounds for asylum over here. 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.280 Yeah, and it wouldn't be such an quote unquote invasion 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:49.640 if they were just allowed to walk through the port 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.840 of entry. This it's this process is so silly because 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:54.880 they cross. They could just do this all at the 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:57.720 port of entry. They really could be safe. The policies 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.960 just choose not to do this. Yeah, that's the part 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:03.840 that really doesn't make sense. It's like we're letting them 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:06.440 in anyways. Why do we need to make their lives 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.200 so uncomfortable, you know and dangerous? 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:10.080 Right? Dangerous? 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.560 I mean, John, you and I were on a water 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.000 drop maybe two months ago now six weeks ago in 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.560 slightly west of here, right, do you remember? We were 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:21.240 driving down to where we're going to get off, and 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:25.440 we met that family from Guinea. There was like, do 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:27.560 you want to just describe what you saw because I 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:29.800 think it was like, at least for me, that was 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:31.520 like I've seen it a lot, but it still emotionally 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:32.080 affected me. 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.439 So yeah, there was a there was a Guinean woman 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:36.760 and her kid. I think he might have been like 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.720 what four or something three three? Yeah, and there was 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.359 also a Nigerian woman and you know, Nigerian speak English 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.480 and Guineans speak French. They weren't really able to communicate 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:51.760 with one another, and yet they were still traveling side 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.199 by side because they they just teamed up because they 0:17:55.200 --> 0:18:00.280 were in a desperate situation together. One of them was 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:01.440 was she and sandals. 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:02.719 One of them didn't have shoes at all. 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:03.680 Didn't have shoes at all. 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.280 Right, yeah, yeah, it's six weeks is a long time, 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:07.720 you know what you're doing. 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:09.520 Yeah, well, you see horrible things every day. 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:11.840 Yeah, it's been a very eventful time. Yeah, every day 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:13.040 feels like a news story. 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:14.200 Yeah. 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:17.640 Yeah. And they just kind of sat on the. 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:21.720 Side of the road and uh, we're out of breath, 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.400 and they were just basically asking us to help them. 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.600 Yeah. I remember the little girl because we were obviously 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:30.320 concerned with the lady who didn't have shoes and trying 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:32.359 to help like bandage her feet and stuff. But then 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.399 I remember the little girl just wasn't saying anything, and 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.800 I suddenly realized, oh, this little girl is probably very cold. 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:42.080 She was like, you know, early, like mildly hypothermic. 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:42.600 Yeah. 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.560 So I had her wrapped up in a little mylaud 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.000 blanket with me to warm her up. And it's just, 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:50.919 I know, it's just for one reason or another, that 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:52.600 was a moment where I was like, why on earth 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:54.240 are we doing this to a three year old? Like 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.080 what what possible reason could there be this three year 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.600 old girl to have hypothermia here and like the country 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:01.240 in the world. 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.480 Who could possibly agree that this is a good thing? Yes, yeah, 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.520 Or another experience I had in the beginning of February 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:09.960 where there was this Colombian man who was in tears, 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:14.200 who approached me and told me that his daughter was very, 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:17.600 very ill, and he dragged me over to a porta 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.400 potty and she was there, bundled up with like nine 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.560 blankets or something, not really responding to my questions. He 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:26.520 was trying to contact nine to one one, but the 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.040 responder on a nine to one to one or the 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:32.720 dispatcher didn't speak Spanish, so I had to communicate with 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.480 them and navigate the whole situation. Turns out she did 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:41.320 have hypothermia. Yeah, but the ambulance would not take him 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.480 along with the mother and the child to the hospital. 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.000 So again it's another case of family separation. Who knows 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.440 what might have happened. They would have gotten processed separately. 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:54.120 He could have ended up in Louisiana and she could 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:56.200 have ended up in Riverside or somewhere. 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:58.800 Yeah, and at that point, once again, it's not the 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:00.880 government or your tax is it were paying for those 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:04.240 people to be reunified, right, that's work that's done by 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:08.919 NGOs and modern trey organizations exactly. Yeah, despite the massive 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.280 amount of money we spend on And we were just 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:14.040 talking the other day about how they like the architectural 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.240 marvel of sections of the border wall right where they've 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.000 poured concrete at like a forty five plus degree angle 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.680 and spent millions of dollars for every yard of that, 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:25.239 and we don't have enough money to give this three 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:27.480 year old girl a blanket or to get that family 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:28.840 back together. 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.720 It's pathetic, it's it's yeah, it's mind boggling. Yeah, even 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.159 today with that dude from Brazil. He came up to 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:38.359 me when we first got here, they were starving, wanted food, water, 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:39.919 and he was like, I'm sick, I have a fever. 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.480 So I hooked him up with some cold medicine that 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:44.840 we had in our medkit, and then later when we 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:46.679 went back to do the second round of feeding, he 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:48.480 got more food and he was like, thank you so much. 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:49.080 We're starving. 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:51.480 We were told to when we were dropped off to 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.119 wait in the mountains at six pm to six am, 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:56.639 so they were just hadn't really I don't know if 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:58.879 they were on the American side yet or how that worked. 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:00.760 Didn't really describe it, but had to wait in the 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.040 mountains before crossing, and so people are getting sick out there. 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:06.400 We ran into that dude with. 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.439 The dog bite on at at one seven seven. He 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:11.720 was just so we we always go check this one 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:14.119 camp because there hasn't been out since Squaddi and SNL 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.200 have put their camp on the other side. There hadn't 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:17.960 been a whole lot of people crossing in this area, 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:20.600 but we go check it periodically. In one morning, yeah, 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:23.560 we saw this man hobbling towards us as we're driving 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.680 down the road with a stick and we're like, why 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:27.679 is he walking like this? Pulled over and he was 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:29.399 bitten by a dog. He said he went to take 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.160 a drink of water and some dogs attacked him, two dogs. 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:32.600 I think. 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.440 Yeah, he'd described it to the wolf, right, yeah. 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:38.520 Yeah, So we called the MS and they picked them 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:39.919 up and took them to the hospitals. 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.040 Right, but you hadn't been there. It's a long way 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:43.280 to walk with a dog bite in your. 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:46.520 Leg Yeah, and who knows, Bordevite might not even even 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:48.440 if ems them out. They might have just tried to 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:49.760 process them with the dog bite. 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:52.560 Yeah get it could have gotten infected or infect toward us. 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:53.719 Yeah. Yeah. 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:57.320 But just to go back on the mutual aid question 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:00.280 that you had earlier, it hasn't all been negative. It's 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:03.720 actually been a really great experience in which I've met 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:06.480 really great people from all kinds of walks of life 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.760 who have just joined together because they see a problem 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:14.200 and know that they're the only they're the only ones 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:16.280 that can make a difference. And it is a sure 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:21.159 easy way to be really important and make a difference 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.280 in other people's lives. You don't really need to have 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:27.000 much more than a good heart and a willingness to work. 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:29.360 Yeah, Like, I think we should talk about that more 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:32.720 because not that some of us had some prior life 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.760 experience right working with refugees or migration, but I think 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.320 most of us just were people who were like, yeah, 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:40.399 this isn't right, and I am able to help, and 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:43.040 so I'm going to help. So can you talk about 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:45.760 like how people can help? And then, like you said, 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:47.640 I think I've actually got a lot out of this 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:50.919 and that I feel more affirmed in my belief that 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:53.040 we can look out after each other without the need 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:55.800 to control each other, and like we don't necessarily need 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:58.639 people with guns and badges to create a society that 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.720 cares for people who need taking care of. So prep 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:03.479 you could describe like how people can help, and then 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:05.760 what it is that you've got out of this that 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:06.800 keeps you wanting to do this. 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:09.440 Well, first of all, yeah, we don't. 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:14.960 We don't have a clear structure of authoritative structure over here. 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:18.679 It's we take ideas as a collective. Different people have 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:22.359 contributed different things. There's a woman that really nailed down 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:25.159 the PB and J making system and we've all just 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:26.200 been following her lead. 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:27.600 There. 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:30.240 Some people came up with the idea of having a 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:31.440 cell phone charging station. 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:35.679 That was you, And uh, it's just the list goes on. 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:40.160 And if you wanted to help, you could just come 0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:42.199 by to the border, come to one of these sites 0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:47.639 and just start distributing food or teaming teaming up with 0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:50.440 us somehow, or by donating to the GoFundMe. 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:51.560 Yeah, what's the good fund Me? 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:51.800 John? 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:54.159 So it's a go fundme that was set up by 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:56.760 my by my dad I don't actually know what it's 0:23:56.880 --> 0:23:59.040 titled Cucumba Migrant Aid. 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:01.480 Go fund Me had Cumba Migrant eight. 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.320 It comes up Samuel Schultz. I think is by Samuel. 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:07.240 Schultz, so you'll know because it has like fifty thousand 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:10.560 dollars on it and like maybe seven woods as a description. 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:15.520 It's like Google because not much else is going down here, 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:17.800 I guess. But yeah, people can help that way, and 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:20.200 we've had people come who listened. We had two people 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:22.000 this morning right who'd heard about it on the podcast 0:24:22.040 --> 0:24:24.080 and it come and helped. Yeah, and it made a 0:24:24.080 --> 0:24:25.200 really really great difference. 0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:28.000 Yeah, they camped out at the Sliders and really held 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:30.760 it down, which is really important. I mean for some 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:33.119 of us, we you know, like John and I, we 0:24:33.240 --> 0:24:35.080 kind of do like a morning shift where we get 0:24:35.119 --> 0:24:37.800 up really early and make sure to do everything that 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:40.520 we need to do, prepping sandwiches, checking on all the camps. 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:42.359 But a lot of people come in in the middle 0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:44.320 of the night. Sliders had people come in what at 0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:45.640 midnight or one am? 0:24:45.880 --> 0:24:47.120 Oh yeah, all throughout. 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:49.679 A group came at midnight, a group came at like 0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:51.720 one am, and then there were also more that came 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:52.640 at four am. 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:55.920 Yeah, so like having someone on site camping, you know, 0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:58.479 making sure that people's needs are met and that if 0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:00.879 any emergencies take place, that they're taken care of, and 0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:03.960 it's just that smiling face when they get here. 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:05.680 It makes a huge difference. 0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:08.800 Like that dude from Brazil, like earlier he was saying 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:10.520 to me, he was like, thank you so much, Like 0:25:10.600 --> 0:25:13.080 this is like this is humanity right here, Like I'm 0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:14.840 a human and I'm like, yes, we will treat you 0:25:14.920 --> 0:25:15.959 like humans here. 0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:18.120 Like at the end of the day, you know, these 0:25:18.119 --> 0:25:21.120 people coming through Central America and Mexico, they go through 0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:27.520 so much, you know, extortion, people ripping them off, just 0:25:27.560 --> 0:25:30.960 feeling unwelcome throughout that whole voyage. Yeah, just having a 0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:33.440 group of people welcome them into the country and treat 0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:36.280 them with dignity is worth more than any bottle of 0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:39.280 water or sandwich that we can give them. And you know, 0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:41.200 that's that's the main thing that we're doing. 0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:54.080 I would say, I want to emphasize that people can 0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:56.160 help in so many ways that you can send us stuff, 0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:57.920 you can send us money, or you can just show up. 0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:00.359 If you just have a weekend that's totally fine, or 0:26:00.400 --> 0:26:02.840 a day it's totally fine. Or if you just want 0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:06.679 to come and make sandwiches, that's totally fine. Like like it, 0:26:06.760 --> 0:26:09.560 We're a very diverse group of people, and some people 0:26:09.560 --> 0:26:12.560 have had more time than others. But yeah, everyone I 0:26:12.560 --> 0:26:14.520 think is valued, and like you said, I think like 0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:18.479 we're the way that we organize without anyone, like we 0:26:18.560 --> 0:26:21.640 organized horizontally has allowed us to be so much better. 0:26:21.680 --> 0:26:24.040 Like do you remember the day there was a day 0:26:24.040 --> 0:26:26.720 when we ran out of plates and we we were 0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:29.040 like down in Willow and it was just it was 0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:32.520 like chaos. And then someone who just arrived that day 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:34.000 was like, oh, what if we put the beans in 0:26:34.040 --> 0:26:36.359 a sandwich bag and give people? That was actually Peter, 0:26:39.200 --> 0:26:42.200 who's back now after going on rowing it for a while. 0:26:42.480 --> 0:26:45.240 But yeah, like if we had been like, no, I'm 0:26:45.280 --> 0:26:47.479 in charge, we've been doing this for longer, then those 0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:50.240 people wouldn't have got fed, right, But because we were 0:26:50.280 --> 0:26:54.040 like willing to listen, then the people got fed, and 0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:57.320 like we were all happier because the people got fed, right, 0:26:57.359 --> 0:27:01.680 Like it worked better that way. So like as things change, 0:27:02.160 --> 0:27:05.000 because like border patrol have said explicitly that they're trying 0:27:05.040 --> 0:27:07.879 to push people west, right, what do you think, like 0:27:08.280 --> 0:27:10.560 what do we need going forward, what do you see 0:27:10.680 --> 0:27:14.720 like the situation being, and like it would be good 0:27:14.720 --> 0:27:17.160 to explain the context of like the changing seasons here 0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:17.560 as well. 0:27:18.880 --> 0:27:21.680 Yes, so I think what we're going to see more 0:27:21.720 --> 0:27:27.480 of is people that are crossing in unorthodox areas, more 0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:29.879 people that are hopping the fence, more people that are 0:27:29.920 --> 0:27:33.160 cutting holes in the walls, just popping up all over 0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:33.600 the place. 0:27:33.760 --> 0:27:36.960 So, yeah, it would be great to have eyes. 0:27:36.560 --> 0:27:38.800 Along the border, people that are willing to travel up 0:27:38.840 --> 0:27:41.199 and down along the border to find out where these 0:27:41.240 --> 0:27:44.080 people are coming through, because for the most part, we 0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:47.160 don't know a lot oftentimes where these people are coming through. 0:27:47.640 --> 0:27:49.879 There are a couple of new oads open air detention 0:27:50.040 --> 0:27:53.120 sites that are relatively close to us that we can't 0:27:53.200 --> 0:27:54.480 find even. 0:27:54.480 --> 0:27:56.840 Right, Yeah, like maybe if we had a super fancy 0:27:56.880 --> 0:27:59.359 drone we could find them, or just boots on the ground, 0:27:59.600 --> 0:28:03.760 nice road vehicle. Yeah yeah, yeah, then these are all 0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:05.760 things that cost money that we don't have. But like 0:28:06.240 --> 0:28:08.239 we've all put lots of miles on our trucks and 0:28:08.280 --> 0:28:10.600 lots of miles on our boots trying to trying to 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:10.960 help out. 0:28:11.080 --> 0:28:14.280 My exhaust is falling off all these bumps. 0:28:14.080 --> 0:28:17.919 Yeah, my transfer case to competing. But like, yeah, if 0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:20.080 we had more people, some of us could focus on 0:28:20.119 --> 0:28:22.560 feeding people here because there was how many people were 0:28:22.600 --> 0:28:24.080 there when we just left now one hundred and twenty 0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:24.600 something like that. 0:28:24.680 --> 0:28:27.480 Yeah, oh no, actually probably more if you count the 0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:30.960 new group. I think you know what a conservative estimate. 0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:32.480 Would have been maybe one hundred and forty. 0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:35.520 Yeah, So that's we'd made one hundred and forty sandwiches 0:28:35.520 --> 0:28:38.440 to feed them today, and we'd chopped firewood and taken 0:28:38.480 --> 0:28:41.280 that out and we'd be given all that out right. 0:28:41.280 --> 0:28:44.160 That was after the same thing at breakfast time. That 0:28:44.240 --> 0:28:46.800 doesn't leave much time to go meander along the border 0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:48.920 and look for another site. So if we had more people, 0:28:49.400 --> 0:28:51.760 we could do that and that would be really valuable. 0:28:51.840 --> 0:28:54.400 Also, if you have connection to firewood. 0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:56.800 Yeah yeah, yeah, if you're a person who can bring 0:28:56.840 --> 0:28:57.920 us a lot of firewood. 0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:01.200 We have one homie right now and breaking his back. 0:29:02.480 --> 0:29:02.840 For us. 0:29:02.920 --> 0:29:06.440 So yeah, that's a definite big need out here. 0:29:06.560 --> 0:29:06.800 Yeah. 0:29:06.960 --> 0:29:08.680 Is there other stuff like that that people who maybe 0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:10.760 aren't here but have connections to or they could they 0:29:10.800 --> 0:29:12.280 could send that's particularly needed. 0:29:14.240 --> 0:29:17.800 A nice off road vehicle, got one lying around. 0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:21.600 Firewood is definitely a big thing. That's that's a huge need. 0:29:21.760 --> 0:29:24.360 Yeah, it's getting really cold up here, and especially in 0:29:24.480 --> 0:29:25.600 like sliders too. 0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:27.920 I think it's higher in elevation, so. 0:29:27.640 --> 0:29:31.320 So exposed to there's nothing between you and the wind. Yeah. Yeah, 0:29:31.360 --> 0:29:32.680 it's very cold out there. 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:33.520 Yeah. 0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:36.200 But and and just other things that are that are 0:29:36.280 --> 0:29:39.000 easier for us to get, but we just constantly need, 0:29:39.160 --> 0:29:41.440 such as breads, blankets, bread. 0:29:43.360 --> 0:29:46.160 Yeah, yeah, tents, all these things. 0:29:46.240 --> 0:29:46.400 Right. 0:29:46.560 --> 0:29:49.880 The wind and the sun destroys everything that we've stockpiled 0:29:49.920 --> 0:29:51.920 after a while, and we have to keep rempanking the wheel. 0:29:51.960 --> 0:29:54.760 And then sometimes borter patrol destroys our stuff as well, 0:29:55.000 --> 0:29:58.000 or sometimes some some chubs come and destroy our stuff, 0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:01.080 which oh, the chuts destroying our Yeah, we should talk 0:30:01.080 --> 0:30:04.160 about the destruction of the shelters before we finish, I guess, 0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:06.120 just to end on a sad note. We was happy, 0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:08.320 not because we built them again and they're fine. So 0:30:08.520 --> 0:30:11.800 there were some shelters I think mostly they were ones 0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:13.280 that had been built. What they were ones that have 0:30:13.320 --> 0:30:16.160 been built volunteers. Yeah, and what joh and you saw 0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:17.520 what happened to those shelters. 0:30:17.200 --> 0:30:20.920 Right, Yeah, So we built some shelters at one of 0:30:20.920 --> 0:30:25.120 the sites at one of the main sites. You know, 0:30:25.280 --> 0:30:28.840 it was very simple just by having of plywood as 0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:34.600 the frame holding it up and then nailing down some 0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:37.640 tarps on it with batons. It was It was a 0:30:37.720 --> 0:30:39.560 nice thing. It stood up to the heavy winds that 0:30:39.600 --> 0:30:40.640 we have here very well. 0:30:41.560 --> 0:30:44.719 It's incomparably better to not having a shelter there. 0:30:44.760 --> 0:30:47.800 Oh yeah, it's a completely different They're instantly use once 0:30:47.840 --> 0:30:51.520 people across and it's awesome to see, like adults that 0:30:51.600 --> 0:30:55.640 are alone will get out and force family shelters like, yeah, 0:30:55.720 --> 0:30:57.000 you get it first for sure. 0:30:57.240 --> 0:31:00.000 Yeah, and yeah, we built those. It was working out good. 0:31:00.000 --> 0:31:02.560 And then one day the Border Patrol showed up or 0:31:02.960 --> 0:31:06.760 a company that was subcontracted by them and demolished them 0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:11.360 all using skiploaders and bulldozers and such. We showed up 0:31:11.400 --> 0:31:15.360 the following day we rebuilt all the shelters and we're 0:31:15.360 --> 0:31:16.239 really happy about it. 0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:16.440 You know. 0:31:16.440 --> 0:31:18.360 It was kind of a big fuck you to them. 0:31:18.440 --> 0:31:20.200 You can tear down our stuff, but we'll just come 0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:21.040 back and build more. 0:31:21.240 --> 0:31:25.560 Yeah. But then what was it like a three four 0:31:25.640 --> 0:31:26.520 days later. 0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:29.560 Or the next day maybe I'm not the day. 0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:30.760 Two days it was close. 0:31:30.960 --> 0:31:34.720 Ye, some guys just showed up and they tore it 0:31:34.760 --> 0:31:36.200 all up with hammers. 0:31:36.200 --> 0:31:38.880 They are finishing a tiny little finishing. 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:43.160 Yeah, luckily they didn't really come equipped, like maybe. 0:31:43.000 --> 0:31:45.920 With the tools, they didn't really know what they were doing. 0:31:46.000 --> 0:31:47.680 Yeah, I think it's fair to say that, but still 0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:50.360 it's annoying when you've put the time into building it. Right, 0:31:50.400 --> 0:31:55.640 and Border Patrol didn't destroy contractors didn't destroy the shelters. First, 0:31:55.640 --> 0:31:57.680 we were like, oh, maybe they're not using this, but 0:31:57.800 --> 0:31:59.680 there are one hundred and forty people there right now, 0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:03.320 like in the shelters that got rebuilt for a third time. 0:32:04.160 --> 0:32:08.440 So like, I guess even we do appreciate people donating, 0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:11.959 and we understand that people's resources are scarce, and like 0:32:12.000 --> 0:32:15.240 the economy is bad and the rent is too damn high, 0:32:15.280 --> 0:32:19.840 et cetera. But like every time we build up enough stuff, 0:32:19.880 --> 0:32:22.760 we have to like we're always running uphill because like 0:32:23.000 --> 0:32:26.400 stuff just gets destroyed either by the weather or by 0:32:26.400 --> 0:32:31.200 the Border patrol or by volunteer Border Patrol judge, Like 0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:33.959 we could, I guess desperately need your help. And like 0:32:34.880 --> 0:32:36.680 at some point the news cycle will move on from 0:32:36.680 --> 0:32:38.960 the border, and that doesn't mean that we will be 0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:41.800 able to move on from having people to help here, right, because, 0:32:41.840 --> 0:32:44.200 like John said, there were people and people always deserve 0:32:44.240 --> 0:32:46.720 to be treated with dignity. Is there anything else that 0:32:46.760 --> 0:32:49.760 you guys think that people should know about the situation? Here? 0:32:51.680 --> 0:32:58.720 We wrap ups kind of chill. It is really nice. 0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:01.240 I like being here. Come here because it makes me happy, 0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:02.040 and my friends are here. 0:33:02.120 --> 0:33:04.480 Yeah, And like the Slider's location is located in a 0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:07.640 really awesome like you can see down just past the 0:33:07.680 --> 0:33:10.200 border wall. There's like a nice little train track that 0:33:10.360 --> 0:33:12.960 used to go from us into Mexico, I guess, and 0:33:13.240 --> 0:33:16.440 just beyond that there's like sheep on a farm in 0:33:16.480 --> 0:33:19.959 the distance, like rolling hills, the clouds come through, and 0:33:20.040 --> 0:33:23.040 like say, it's a really beautiful place to be and 0:33:23.120 --> 0:33:25.800 to hang out. And a lot of the locals that 0:33:26.320 --> 0:33:28.200 don't hate what we're doing are very nice. 0:33:28.240 --> 0:33:30.320 The people at the hotel are very supportive. 0:33:30.560 --> 0:33:34.440 And yeah, we're a great group, really good people. It's 0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:37.400 always really fun to do anything like this. People are 0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:41.120 generally enamored by our project and want to be involved 0:33:41.120 --> 0:33:43.239 and come back a second time. I mean we're kind 0:33:43.240 --> 0:33:45.080 of like cowboys. I mean we're doing this all on 0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:47.840 our own. We're driving up and down looking at the 0:33:47.880 --> 0:33:51.719 sites looking around and all that whole responsibility is on 0:33:51.760 --> 0:33:52.400 our shoulders. 0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:54.640 Yeah, it feels good to take responsibility. 0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:55.440 It definitely does. 0:33:55.680 --> 0:33:56.360 We're doing this. 0:33:56.600 --> 0:33:59.360 It's like no one else will, so yeah, just do it. 0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:02.320 Like that's fine. It's very like it reminds me of 0:34:02.320 --> 0:34:05.560 the punk scene growing up, but like it's a big 0:34:05.600 --> 0:34:08.600 important thing. Get Like you said, Fox, every national news 0:34:08.640 --> 0:34:11.560 network has been down here, every drifting streamer has been 0:34:11.560 --> 0:34:13.440 down here. But the end of the day, it's a 0:34:13.440 --> 0:34:16.560 few dozen random people who are actually the ones making 0:34:16.600 --> 0:34:19.720 sure that people don't die here. For all the government 0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:21.720 attention and for all the millions of dollars spent, it's 0:34:22.000 --> 0:34:23.040 just us. 0:34:23.000 --> 0:34:24.879 Yeah, working on a fraction of the butt. 0:34:24.920 --> 0:34:27.480 I mean, it costs them more to fly a helicopter 0:34:28.600 --> 0:34:31.120 for a few hours than we've ever spent. 0:34:31.120 --> 0:34:34.640 In our entire GOFUNDB. Yeah, and yeah, like we get 0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:37.680 it done. We're very efficient, I guess in that sense. 0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:40.359 But yeah, we would love more people. People have come 0:34:40.400 --> 0:34:42.560 because I listen to podcasts and that also like just 0:34:42.920 --> 0:34:45.719 for me personally means the world to me. Like most 0:34:45.719 --> 0:34:47.239 of the time we just talk into a microphone and 0:34:47.280 --> 0:34:50.120 then you can't really see who you're talking to us 0:34:50.320 --> 0:34:52.960 unless you go on like social media, and that's not 0:34:52.960 --> 0:34:56.759 always the best reflection of humanity. So like, it really 0:34:56.800 --> 0:34:58.560 means the world to me that someone like listens to 0:34:58.600 --> 0:35:00.600 this when they're driving to work or you know, going 0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:02.400 on a jog or whatever I'm doing, and it's like, no, 0:35:02.480 --> 0:35:05.560 I will I will go and I will help, because 0:35:05.560 --> 0:35:07.239 I think that is how we solve so many of 0:35:07.280 --> 0:35:10.480 our problems. Like there is a massive problem with people 0:35:10.560 --> 0:35:12.120 not being able to afford rent living on the street 0:35:12.120 --> 0:35:14.359 in this country, and we solve it in the same 0:35:14.400 --> 0:35:16.080 way by just showing up for each other. 0:35:16.239 --> 0:35:18.160 And there's also different ways to get plugged in, like 0:35:18.160 --> 0:35:20.759 if the desert's not your thing, it doesn't I mean, 0:35:20.800 --> 0:35:23.880 this is like where the process starts as far as 0:35:23.920 --> 0:35:27.120 like the spectrum of the whole border crisis or not crisis, 0:35:27.160 --> 0:35:30.560 but the whole border humanitarian situation. 0:35:30.160 --> 0:35:32.520 We have going on here. So this is what we're 0:35:32.560 --> 0:35:34.520 doing out here. But there's also airport runs. 0:35:34.560 --> 0:35:36.920 A lot of them get ditched in the airports, so 0:35:36.960 --> 0:35:40.120 I think we all we got SD and maybe m death. 0:35:40.040 --> 0:35:42.080 And at last center kind of hold down. 0:35:42.080 --> 0:35:44.520 They do airport runs, border patrol just I guess at 0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:47.319 night they don't drop them off like after ten or something. 0:35:47.320 --> 0:35:49.759 They don't drop them off at the IRIS station. They'll 0:35:49.760 --> 0:35:51.480 just drop them straight off at the airport. So they 0:35:51.480 --> 0:35:53.080 need help being fed. A lot of them don't have 0:35:53.120 --> 0:35:55.719 plane tickets. They need to kind of some you know, 0:35:55.840 --> 0:35:58.279 people need blankets because they have to sleep there. So 0:35:58.760 --> 0:36:00.520 we all, I mean we all we got is great 0:36:00.520 --> 0:36:02.520 for that. You can plug in with them, and I 0:36:02.600 --> 0:36:07.080 think Alochlado and who else is it? M Deef as well, 0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:10.000 that's doing the Irish street releases. So when the Border 0:36:10.000 --> 0:36:11.920 Patrol just releases them on the street, like a lot 0:36:11.920 --> 0:36:14.040 of people just getting a cab and go. They have 0:36:14.120 --> 0:36:16.200 the resources they can do that, they're already planned. But 0:36:16.239 --> 0:36:18.280 some people don't have any money or they got robbed 0:36:18.280 --> 0:36:20.399 on the way here, so they have nothing. They need 0:36:20.440 --> 0:36:22.000 a lot of help. They need to figure out where 0:36:22.000 --> 0:36:24.239 to go, they need a place to stay. So there's 0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:27.399 the street releases, there's the airport, there's I think that's 0:36:27.480 --> 0:36:27.759 kind of. 0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:31.400 Or or by just helping with shelters and organizations in 0:36:31.440 --> 0:36:33.400 whatever city you happen to be living in. You know, 0:36:34.080 --> 0:36:36.319 the majority of the migro well not the majority, but 0:36:36.719 --> 0:36:39.799 a very typical answer migrants give me when I ask 0:36:39.920 --> 0:36:42.839 them where in the United States they're going to? Is 0:36:43.080 --> 0:36:46.760 New York City or Chicago or any of these major cities. 0:36:46.840 --> 0:36:54.120 Yeah, Lincoln, Nebraska. Yeah, it's gonna be Idaho, have fun. 0:36:54.600 --> 0:36:56.719 Yeah, it was beautiful. 0:36:56.840 --> 0:37:00.239 It was a guy have on and I met from 0:37:00.239 --> 0:37:03.680 a minority ethnic group in Russia. We met in September, 0:37:03.760 --> 0:37:05.680 Like I remember one of those first really cold nights, 0:37:06.200 --> 0:37:08.640 and I was talking to this person and they were 0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:10.359 in Pennsylvania and I checked in with them a few 0:37:10.360 --> 0:37:12.439 weeks ago and they're like happily living in Pennsylvania. Can't 0:37:12.520 --> 0:37:16.320 understand a word anyone else is saying. It's nice to 0:37:16.360 --> 0:37:19.120 see and yeah, you can help those people, lily in 0:37:19.440 --> 0:37:22.319 whatever community you're in. And like, if you're further along 0:37:22.400 --> 0:37:26.160 the border, there's Aarha Samaritans, there's no massive worth days, 0:37:26.200 --> 0:37:30.759 there's humane borders, two Songsamaritans as well. Right, yeah, all 0:37:30.800 --> 0:37:32.920 along the border, you know there are the there are 0:37:32.960 --> 0:37:35.080 lots of good people in Texas, right, there's a sidewalk 0:37:35.080 --> 0:37:38.680 school and Blainoso Matamoros, the people at the National Butterfly 0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:41.040 Center who are very nice people who we've heard from before. 0:37:41.120 --> 0:37:45.000 Like all along the border and like all around this country. 0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:46.680 There are there are things you can do to help, 0:37:46.760 --> 0:37:49.920 and I want to reinforce it. It's not like this 0:37:50.520 --> 0:37:52.960 penurius thing we do that's miserable and we all get 0:37:52.960 --> 0:37:55.160 together and cry every night. Like we do have a 0:37:55.239 --> 0:37:58.080 nice time, even though we have seen some really stressful things. 0:37:58.120 --> 0:38:00.439 Like we all look after one another and held space 0:38:00.480 --> 0:38:03.240 when people do need help or extra time to process something. 0:38:03.320 --> 0:38:06.160 But it's a very supportive community and we support each 0:38:06.160 --> 0:38:08.080 other through lots of other things, like aside from this, 0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:12.359 and I think a lot of people in general in 0:38:12.400 --> 0:38:15.439 the twenty first century America struggle with isolation. And that's 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:19.719 a thing that capitalism does to people, right, it isolates 0:38:19.760 --> 0:38:23.399 us from each other. And so hopefully, like I think 0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:25.440 this is a solution for me this this has been 0:38:25.480 --> 0:38:28.200 a really positive thing, but like generally my sense of 0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:28.719 hope and. 0:38:29.200 --> 0:38:31.120 Yeah, and like what we're doing this kind of does 0:38:31.239 --> 0:38:33.640 it's disaster humanitarian relief effort. 0:38:33.760 --> 0:38:35.799 It's kind of with the. 0:38:35.719 --> 0:38:39.000 Way the climate is going in the world in climate 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:41.040 climate are going to. 0:38:41.080 --> 0:38:41.880 Get less common. 0:38:42.200 --> 0:38:44.560 Yeah, this will just be getting more common, and like 0:38:44.640 --> 0:38:48.080 this kind of like preparing and building community and like 0:38:48.239 --> 0:38:51.960 this disaster scenario is going to Yeah, definitely be more 0:38:51.960 --> 0:38:52.480 in commons. 0:38:52.520 --> 0:38:54.520 And it's not that easy to do. I mean, it's 0:38:54.520 --> 0:38:55.440 not that hard to do. 0:38:56.239 --> 0:38:58.279 You know, you just got to have the intention and 0:38:58.320 --> 0:39:01.160 then you just got to get together and that's all. 0:39:01.160 --> 0:39:02.439 That's all you really need to do. 0:39:02.440 --> 0:39:04.879 Don't think that it's like this. If someone had said 0:39:04.880 --> 0:39:08.120 to us, what plus or minus fifty thousand people probably 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:09.960 have come through, I have no idea on the numbers, 0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:10.920 but somewhere around. 0:39:10.719 --> 0:39:12.160 There, yeah, probably more than that. 0:39:12.320 --> 0:39:15.080 Yeah, if we like I remember in May when we 0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:18.200 cleaned up the first o ads when we were like 0:39:18.400 --> 0:39:20.040 when I first met your mum and dad, John, we 0:39:20.040 --> 0:39:22.640 were cleaning up the first o ads and we were like, Wow, 0:39:22.680 --> 0:39:24.640 that was a horrible thing that happened. That was really fucked. 0:39:24.840 --> 0:39:28.680 If someone had said, right, well, between now and next March, 0:39:28.719 --> 0:39:30.680 fifty thousand people will come through here and it's mostly 0:39:30.719 --> 0:39:33.000 going to be you guys who are here picking up trash, 0:39:33.000 --> 0:39:34.799 and that's that's all. It's going to be. Like it's 0:39:34.800 --> 0:39:37.359 on you, it would have been it would have seemed overwhelming, right, 0:39:37.400 --> 0:39:41.000 But I don't think people should feel afraid to confront 0:39:41.080 --> 0:39:44.560 these big problems because like, between the group of people 0:39:44.640 --> 0:39:47.040 who we've assembled here we've been able to confront this 0:39:47.120 --> 0:39:50.320 problem and make it survivable and treat people with dignity 0:39:50.560 --> 0:39:53.640 and bring some dignity and humanity into a situation where 0:39:53.680 --> 0:39:54.919 there wasn't any right. 0:39:55.120 --> 0:39:57.320 No, yeah, And there's a role for everybody. 0:39:57.360 --> 0:39:59.400 No matter what you do, you can find your niche 0:39:59.440 --> 0:40:03.080 of what know you makes you feel good or something 0:40:03.120 --> 0:40:05.759 that you're good at, you know. Yeah, it's finding the 0:40:06.640 --> 0:40:09.560 little fascists that destroyed our things online and doing all 0:40:09.600 --> 0:40:13.560 that online footwork, or it's building shelters, or it's making 0:40:13.640 --> 0:40:15.200 PB and j's or. 0:40:15.160 --> 0:40:18.080 Our friends made a website and made a really good website. 0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:21.720 Website, yeah, or even yeah, just being someone that speaks 0:40:21.800 --> 0:40:25.000 multiple languages is a huge need out here, especially I 0:40:25.040 --> 0:40:28.640 mean Spanish is pretty common, but the harder languages, like 0:40:29.640 --> 0:40:30.800 I mean Mandarin. 0:40:31.760 --> 0:40:33.879 Yeah. Yeah, if you speak Mandarin and then you reach 0:40:33.920 --> 0:40:35.440 out to us and when we can call you, then 0:40:35.480 --> 0:40:36.120 that would be huge. 0:40:36.160 --> 0:40:36.239 Right. 0:40:36.320 --> 0:40:38.480 That can be really in a medical emergency, that could 0:40:38.480 --> 0:40:40.680 be a life or death thing. So there were there 0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:42.520 are a ton of ways to help and re encourage 0:40:42.560 --> 0:40:44.560 people to kind of go off to they can where 0:40:44.560 --> 0:40:46.640 can people follow along with you? Two? Do you have 0:40:46.680 --> 0:40:48.880 like social media or anything that you want to plug. 0:40:50.920 --> 0:40:56.560 I don't. I'm gonna keep minding. 0:40:54.280 --> 0:40:55.719 The world beautiful. 0:40:56.760 --> 0:40:57.000 Yeah. 0:40:57.080 --> 0:40:59.719 One of the how I got involved in this is 0:40:59.760 --> 0:41:02.120 through members of a drum line that I am part of, 0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:05.160 So we show up for protests, have been since twenty twenty. 0:41:05.920 --> 0:41:07.880 Direct Action drum Line on Instagram. 0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:10.640 We post a lot of different stuff from organizing for 0:41:10.719 --> 0:41:14.680 Palestine to you know, we were doing a lot of 0:41:14.680 --> 0:41:17.200 Black Lives Matter stuff early in twenty twenty and now 0:41:17.280 --> 0:41:19.239 it's you know, kind of cross mixed with border raide 0:41:19.280 --> 0:41:22.680 since I've been out here. So we occasionally will make 0:41:22.719 --> 0:41:23.520 posts so you. 0:41:23.480 --> 0:41:24.480 Can follow along there. 0:41:25.400 --> 0:41:29.320 Alo Gelato is a good one to follow on social media. 0:41:30.239 --> 0:41:35.359 Income Paul Wellness on Instagram Borderlands Relief Collective. I'm sure 0:41:35.400 --> 0:41:37.760 a lot of the people listening already follow a lot. 0:41:38.120 --> 0:41:38.800 Of these people. 0:41:38.880 --> 0:41:40.799 But yeah, there's a network through all of that, and 0:41:40.840 --> 0:41:42.360 so once you start following one or the other, we 0:41:42.400 --> 0:41:44.480 all tag each other and we share each other's stuff, 0:41:44.480 --> 0:41:46.520 so you can get involved that way and figure out 0:41:46.560 --> 0:41:50.279 what's going on. Yeah, and the is it bored? What's 0:41:50.280 --> 0:41:52.280 the website for? That's a great resource. 0:41:52.320 --> 0:41:55.080 Border Rade don't get helped to IO. I think if 0:41:55.080 --> 0:41:57.359 you give it a Google somewhere somewhere around that you'll 0:41:57.360 --> 0:41:59.319 find it. It's a good website. And like if you 0:41:59.719 --> 0:42:02.000 face seen similar issues in your community, wherever you are, 0:42:02.040 --> 0:42:04.239 whatever it is, Like, we've definitely made a lot of 0:42:04.360 --> 0:42:06.359 mistakes and we've learned a lot, and so we've tried 0:42:06.400 --> 0:42:08.520 to document the things that we've learned so that you 0:42:08.560 --> 0:42:10.799 guys don't have to reinvent the wheel somewhere else. Right, 0:42:10.880 --> 0:42:14.040 Like you know, you can be an efficient PB and jamaker, 0:42:14.160 --> 0:42:14.880 just like us. 0:42:16.880 --> 0:42:18.759 Learn Suirly's technique. 0:42:19.960 --> 0:42:21.960 All right, thank you so much, guys. I really appreciate 0:42:21.960 --> 0:42:22.279 your time. 0:42:22.520 --> 0:42:23.680 Question, Thank you, jeers. 0:42:44.520 --> 0:42:46.719 Welcome to It could happen here, the show about how 0:42:46.760 --> 0:42:48.479 a small group of people are trying to keep making 0:42:48.520 --> 0:42:50.319 bad things happen, and we're going to tell you what 0:42:50.400 --> 0:42:53.759 they are. I'm Garrison Davis and joined with me is 0:42:54.200 --> 0:42:59.279 doctor James Stout. Hello, doctor, Hi Garrison. Thank you for 0:42:59.320 --> 0:43:01.279 having me fitted some respect on my name. 0:43:01.320 --> 0:43:02.000 Appreciate it. 0:43:02.440 --> 0:43:04.520 So today we're going to be talking about something called 0:43:04.560 --> 0:43:06.919 Agenda forty seven, and actually we're going to be talking 0:43:06.920 --> 0:43:09.600 about this this whole week. We've gotten a lot of 0:43:09.680 --> 0:43:13.160 quests to talk about the heritage Foundation's Project twenty twenty five, 0:43:13.239 --> 0:43:16.080 which is a kind of an a road map for 0:43:16.280 --> 0:43:19.799 how a Republican president could change the country if they 0:43:19.840 --> 0:43:24.000 get elected next year. And although this proposal is scary 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:27.880 and quite big, it's a massive, massive book. Yeah, Trump 0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:31.320 certainly listens to these types of guys, but he doesn't 0:43:31.320 --> 0:43:33.200 always like really like them. 0:43:33.840 --> 0:43:34.080 Oa. 0:43:35.239 --> 0:43:37.080 He does what the fuck he wants. And again, no 0:43:37.080 --> 0:43:38.080 one controlling Trump. 0:43:38.280 --> 0:43:41.000 He kind of does whatever he wants, right, Yeah, And 0:43:41.160 --> 0:43:44.280 I mean there certainly are other people like in Congress, 0:43:44.320 --> 0:43:47.479 including the Speaker, who are definitely pushing this Project twenty 0:43:47.520 --> 0:43:49.279 twenty five. And I think we'll probably talk about this 0:43:49.320 --> 0:43:52.080 on the show at some other point. But Trump actually 0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:55.520 has his own plans for if he's gonna be elected 0:43:55.560 --> 0:43:58.279 president again, and we're gonna be talking about that, and 0:43:58.320 --> 0:44:00.560 that is called Agenda forty seven, which I believe is 0:44:00.560 --> 0:44:04.160 a subtle reference to the forty seventh president, which will 0:44:04.200 --> 0:44:07.400 be him if he gets elected. 0:44:07.840 --> 0:44:12.279 Yeah, also the forty fifth president. So yeah, sell more 0:44:12.360 --> 0:44:13.160 merch that way. 0:44:14.000 --> 0:44:16.680 So the next the next next few episodes, we're gonna 0:44:16.719 --> 0:44:20.680 be diving into Trump's plans for if he becomes the 0:44:20.680 --> 0:44:24.239 forty seventh president of the United States called Agenda forty seven. 0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:26.719 He has all of these listed on his website, and 0:44:27.000 --> 0:44:30.600 one of my favorite parts is that to accompany each 0:44:30.640 --> 0:44:33.080 one of these, like policy proposals, he has a video 0:44:33.120 --> 0:44:36.000 of him like reading out something on a like a teleprompter, 0:44:36.320 --> 0:44:39.080 and he very often will go off script, just completely 0:44:39.360 --> 0:44:43.919 and just start talking, which which they include the entire 0:44:44.000 --> 0:44:47.760 transcript for underneath each video, which is just fascinating to read, 0:44:48.000 --> 0:44:52.120 totally divorced of like how he talks. It's just amazing. Also, 0:44:52.560 --> 0:44:56.440 all of the videos are embedded on his website via Rumble, 0:44:56.760 --> 0:45:00.680 which is just amazing, an amazing stuff happening. 0:45:01.320 --> 0:45:02.480 It's perfect. 0:45:02.800 --> 0:45:06.040 So that that's that's kind of the uh, the overview 0:45:06.080 --> 0:45:07.880 of what we're gonna be doing this next week and 0:45:07.920 --> 0:45:10.960 why and the reason why I have James here. James 0:45:11.000 --> 0:45:13.680 you you you work in education, right I do? 0:45:13.800 --> 0:45:14.880 I do some educating. 0:45:14.960 --> 0:45:18.279 Yeah, so you have you have opinions on education, I 0:45:18.320 --> 0:45:19.239 would assume. 0:45:19.200 --> 0:45:22.280 Yeah strong ones as a doctor, yeah yeah, a doctor 0:45:22.480 --> 0:45:25.480 of mond European history. Just to be clear before anyone, yes, 0:45:25.800 --> 0:45:28.160 pictures of their illnesses, please don't. 0:45:28.960 --> 0:45:32.680 So, I'm gonna be talking about Trump's plan for education, 0:45:33.080 --> 0:45:34.799 and by the end we can see if it gets 0:45:34.880 --> 0:45:38.640 the James Stout approval. As someone who works in education. 0:45:38.920 --> 0:45:41.759 Yeah yeah, I mean, I'm up in minded. Let's see 0:45:41.800 --> 0:45:42.279 what he's got. 0:45:43.120 --> 0:45:48.040 So Trump, Now, the problem with us doing these episodes 0:45:48.080 --> 0:45:49.680 is that all of these are like videos right for 0:45:49.760 --> 0:45:51.840 his policy proposals. And I don't want to subject to you, 0:45:51.920 --> 0:45:54.040 the listener, to just videos of Trump talking. 0:45:54.120 --> 0:45:54.600 I don't. 0:45:55.080 --> 0:45:57.359 You don't need to hear that. But there's a part 0:45:57.400 --> 0:46:00.680 of me, just deep down, a shameful part of that 0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:03.960 when I'm reading these quotes, I really want to like 0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:09.040 slip into like a like a bad transgender Trump impression, 0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:12.320 which I've tried to suppress. I've tried to suppress the surge, 0:46:12.360 --> 0:46:14.680 but every once in a while, it just it just 0:46:14.719 --> 0:46:17.799 sneaks out. So as I'm going through these quotes, I 0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:21.880 cannot promise that that certain things might start happening. And 0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:23.560 it's just it's just a part of the deal. 0:46:24.400 --> 0:46:26.680 You've been possessed by the spirit of Donald Trump. 0:46:26.880 --> 0:46:32.440 Oh God. So on this note, Trump opens his education 0:46:32.560 --> 0:46:35.920 proposal with this line quote, our public schools have been 0:46:35.920 --> 0:46:41.320 taken over by the radical left maniacs, which really sets 0:46:41.320 --> 0:46:43.239 a tone for the rest of what we're gonna be 0:46:43.280 --> 0:46:44.080 talking about today. 0:46:44.440 --> 0:46:46.759 I do want a highlight that I've been trying for 0:46:46.800 --> 0:46:49.400 more than a decade, But obviously it's about people have 0:46:49.440 --> 0:46:50.960 been more successful than me in that regard. 0:46:51.560 --> 0:46:53.759 So over these next like twenty five minutes, I'm gonna 0:46:53.760 --> 0:46:57.120 try to explain what he calls his quote plan to 0:46:57.239 --> 0:47:01.400 save American education and give power back to American parents 0:47:02.280 --> 0:47:05.440 and the American parents line is going to be a 0:47:05.480 --> 0:47:10.759 reoccurring trend here. So in kind of a broad overview, 0:47:11.680 --> 0:47:15.080 Trump believes that regular public schools, as well as colleges 0:47:15.080 --> 0:47:18.640 and universities are just so far gone to not only 0:47:18.680 --> 0:47:23.160 require like massive, massive regressive changes, but also frankly whole 0:47:23.239 --> 0:47:27.440 new alternatives are needed, which leads us to our first 0:47:27.520 --> 0:47:33.920 policy proposal. So Trump says that Americans are horrified that 0:47:34.040 --> 0:47:38.480 quote once respected universities express support for the savages and 0:47:38.600 --> 0:47:45.120 jihattists who attacked Israel unquote. So that's obviously not great there. 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:49.520 It is savages, very very quick, just immediate, immediately getting 0:47:49.600 --> 0:47:53.080 this sort of stuff. Despite spending more money on higher 0:47:53.160 --> 0:47:56.680 education than any other country, schools are quote turning our 0:47:56.719 --> 0:48:01.520 students into communists and terrorists and sympathize of many many 0:48:01.560 --> 0:48:07.600 different dimensions. What does that even mean. They're sympathizing with 0:48:07.640 --> 0:48:10.520 the alternate dimensions, you know, the oh I see the 0:48:10.560 --> 0:48:15.239 near universe version. They're gaining too much sympathy. Yeah, as 0:48:15.239 --> 0:48:18.080 well as turning into communists and terrorists. 0:48:18.120 --> 0:48:20.839 To be fair, he is right that like one of 0:48:20.880 --> 0:48:24.680 the areas where you will find like the the few whole. No, 0:48:24.760 --> 0:48:28.800 actually Twitter is the other area, unreconstructed Marxist leninists. 0:48:28.400 --> 0:48:31.960 He's in the Academy that it's there and on x 0:48:31.960 --> 0:48:35.040 dot com formerly known as Twitter. So to combat this 0:48:35.200 --> 0:48:40.759 communist and savage and g hottest incursion into universities, Trump 0:48:40.880 --> 0:48:45.040 is proposing something quote unquote dramatically different. His plan is 0:48:45.080 --> 0:48:50.120 to seize quote billions and billions unquote of dollars through taxes, 0:48:50.120 --> 0:48:55.680 finds in lawsuits against quote excessively large private university endowments unquote, 0:48:56.000 --> 0:48:59.440 and use that money to quote endow a new institution 0:48:59.719 --> 0:49:02.839 called the American Academy unquote. 0:49:03.080 --> 0:49:06.800 That's already the American Academy's already. But is he spending 0:49:06.800 --> 0:49:09.000 it with an E or or it's why? Like no, 0:49:09.000 --> 0:49:12.799 it's why, Okay, So it's a place not like the institution. 0:49:14.000 --> 0:49:17.759 So the American Academy will seek to quote make a 0:49:17.920 --> 0:49:21.640 truly world class education avaiable to every American free of charge, 0:49:21.800 --> 0:49:25.480 without adding a single dime to the federal debt. And 0:49:25.520 --> 0:49:28.560 then to do this, quote, the institution will gather an 0:49:28.760 --> 0:49:34.200 entire universe of the highest quality educational content unquote. And 0:49:34.480 --> 0:49:37.040 I love the phrase educational content. 0:49:37.680 --> 0:49:41.440 Yeah, this is this sounds like the short prayer you 0:49:41.560 --> 0:49:42.120 videos that. 0:49:43.200 --> 0:49:45.959 Yeah, what are you like? You're starting to You're starting 0:49:45.960 --> 0:49:49.640 to suspect certain things, right like, Yeah, what do you 0:49:49.719 --> 0:49:52.080 think the American Academy is going to be here? Based 0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:53.719 on the limited information you have? 0:49:53.920 --> 0:49:57.200 Yeah, it doesn't seem like a credible university, does it. 0:49:56.840 --> 0:49:58.840 It seems to look like if you're. 0:49:58.719 --> 0:49:59.760 World made, that's education. 0:50:00.280 --> 0:50:03.719 Maybe it's what Barry Weiss is doing in Texas, you know, 0:50:03.840 --> 0:50:08.239 maybe she's gonna be helming the American Academy. It sounds 0:50:08.280 --> 0:50:09.840 like Jordan Peterston's Grift University. 0:50:10.640 --> 0:50:14.120 It's a world class education after you gather an entire 0:50:14.200 --> 0:50:18.720 universe of the highest quality educational content. So this content, 0:50:18.840 --> 0:50:22.560 Trump claims will quote cover the full spectrum of human 0:50:22.640 --> 0:50:27.200 knowledge and skills and make that material available to every 0:50:27.239 --> 0:50:32.640 American citizen online for free. Unquote that's just a library. 0:50:32.840 --> 0:50:36.120 Where he's describing as a library, we already have those, 0:50:36.560 --> 0:50:40.560 not quite the content. It's not just a library because 0:50:40.680 --> 0:50:46.280 quote the Academy will utilize the latest breakthrough in computing unquote, 0:50:48.520 --> 0:50:52.400 as well as study groups, mentors, and industry partners to 0:50:52.440 --> 0:50:56.600 provide a truly quote top tier education option for the people. 0:50:57.040 --> 0:50:58.160 For the next part, I have to do it in 0:50:58.160 --> 0:51:00.560 the Trump voice, because otherwise the grammar won't make any sense. 0:51:01.040 --> 0:51:05.000 Whether you want lectures or an ancient history, or an 0:51:05.040 --> 0:51:09.360 introduction to financial accounting or a trading at a skilled trade, 0:51:10.840 --> 0:51:12.920 the goal will be to deliver it and get it 0:51:12.960 --> 0:51:18.239 done properly. I love the phrase whether you want lectures 0:51:18.400 --> 0:51:19.880 or an ancient history? 0:51:20.239 --> 0:51:23.440 Yeah, yeah, Like you can give yourself a history, like 0:51:23.520 --> 0:51:27.040 you could go back to Samaria and it'sert yourself. 0:51:26.960 --> 0:51:31.239 Whether you want lectures or an ancient history, or an 0:51:31.239 --> 0:51:35.880 introduction to financial accounting or training in a skilled trade. 0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:37.520 So you will be able to learn all of this 0:51:37.640 --> 0:51:40.439 online for free, getting a truly topp tier education, which 0:51:40.480 --> 0:51:46.320 sounds like okay, But Trump specified that your American Academy 0:51:46.440 --> 0:51:50.759 education will be quote unquote strictly non political unquote. 0:51:51.480 --> 0:51:51.840 Good. 0:51:52.400 --> 0:51:56.040 I'm really excited to learn an ancient history from a 0:51:56.040 --> 0:51:58.840 strictly non political standpoint. That's that's great. 0:52:00.040 --> 0:52:02.880 We can't discuss the formation of the state because there 0:52:02.880 --> 0:52:03.920 will be a political stance. 0:52:05.320 --> 0:52:09.000 Furthermore, Donald Trump promised that at American Academy quote, there 0:52:09.040 --> 0:52:12.760 will be no wokeness or jihadism allowed. None of that's 0:52:12.800 --> 0:52:13.840 going to be allowed. 0:52:16.680 --> 0:52:22.600 How will I teach without jihadism? My personal jahad is 0:52:22.600 --> 0:52:24.840 is to educate the youth of America, But now I 0:52:24.920 --> 0:52:25.839 can't by taking it. 0:52:26.160 --> 0:52:29.480 Sorry, not allowed, not allowed, going to Trump, very sad, 0:52:29.680 --> 0:52:34.480 very sad. So this plan also seeks to help the 0:52:34.520 --> 0:52:37.200 forty million Americans who have some college education but no 0:52:37.280 --> 0:52:40.400 complete degree, by granting credit for past course work at 0:52:40.440 --> 0:52:44.600 quote unquote legacy institutions and giving Americans quote the chance 0:52:44.640 --> 0:52:47.160 to complete your education at the American Academy for free 0:52:47.480 --> 0:52:51.840 and much more quickly than is now possible or available unquote. 0:52:52.000 --> 0:52:55.760 So now, if there weren't red flags going off already, 0:52:55.760 --> 0:52:58.759 there certainly should be now with that last line, more 0:52:58.840 --> 0:53:02.399 quickly that is now possible or available, which is which 0:53:02.440 --> 0:53:06.400 is a classic tell of an online university scam. Now, 0:53:07.000 --> 0:53:09.880 the exact details of how the American academy is supposed 0:53:09.880 --> 0:53:11.920 to work. Are kind of unclear, probably because it hasn't 0:53:11.920 --> 0:53:16.280 been figured out yet because it's bush and quite possibly 0:53:16.320 --> 0:53:17.600 never will get figured out. 0:53:18.440 --> 0:53:20.960 Yeah, many such cases and Agenda forty seven as it 0:53:21.000 --> 0:53:21.480 turns out. 0:53:21.800 --> 0:53:24.840 But Trump University founder Donald Trump did say that his 0:53:24.920 --> 0:53:29.680 American Academy proposal does plan to quote compete directly with 0:53:29.800 --> 0:53:34.480 existing and very costly four year university systems by granting 0:53:34.520 --> 0:53:39.720 students degree credentials that the US government and all federal 0:53:39.760 --> 0:53:42.840 contractors will henceforth recognize. 0:53:43.320 --> 0:53:49.440 The other, recognize them as fucking useless. 0:53:47.080 --> 0:53:52.680 Not degrees. Degree credentials. Yeah, degree credentials. 0:53:54.040 --> 0:53:56.000 Gonna put my degree credential up on my wall. 0:53:56.800 --> 0:54:00.360 This is just another Trump University, an uncredited scale that 0:54:00.440 --> 0:54:03.080 Trump is hoping to prop up with the federal government, 0:54:03.160 --> 0:54:06.680 this time instead of his business empire. It's it's not 0:54:06.880 --> 0:54:09.520 it's it's not his entire thing, isn't it, Like, yes, 0:54:09.600 --> 0:54:12.479 that is the whole thing. It's not real. It's not real. 0:54:12.560 --> 0:54:15.920 He's he's framing this plan as a quote unquote revolution 0:54:16.040 --> 0:54:19.920 in higher education that will provide life changing opportunities by 0:54:19.920 --> 0:54:24.279 awarding American citizens with quote the full and complete equilovent 0:54:24.760 --> 0:54:26.280 of a bachelor's degree. 0:54:29.560 --> 0:54:31.600 I love it when he just fucking sends it on 0:54:31.880 --> 0:54:34.359 there's gonna be one in my in my episode, which 0:54:34.400 --> 0:54:36.839 you're here later this week, when he just cannot say 0:54:36.840 --> 0:54:39.520 the word film, and I love that he doesn't fucking try. 0:54:39.719 --> 0:54:41.000 He just he just owns it. 0:54:42.320 --> 0:54:47.560 The full and complete equivalent. That's not neither. That's neither 0:54:47.640 --> 0:54:53.239 full nor complete if it's an equivalent anyway. Trump Trump 0:54:53.480 --> 0:54:58.000 ends this video with an eloquent quote, enjoy it, learn 0:54:58.080 --> 0:55:00.640 from it, and thank you, which is just. 0:55:02.080 --> 0:55:07.120 I'm going to finish you on my legsures that way, 0:55:08.000 --> 0:55:10.560 and then I'll do like a smoke puff and just disappear. 0:55:11.719 --> 0:55:13.680 So yeah, this is this is the first plan to 0:55:13.680 --> 0:55:16.680 save American education. That sounds great. I cannot wait to 0:55:16.719 --> 0:55:23.520 get a fully complete equivalent the bachelor's degree credential. Very 0:55:23.800 --> 0:55:24.320 very cool. 0:55:25.360 --> 0:55:26.600 Yeah, wonderful stuff. 0:55:27.400 --> 0:55:29.120 But do you know what isn't a scam? 0:55:29.239 --> 0:55:29.640 James? 0:55:30.360 --> 0:55:34.239 Can we say that, like I we might be absolute sure. 0:55:34.600 --> 0:55:38.520 I trust my life on every single product and or 0:55:38.640 --> 0:55:53.640 service that follows this musical sting we are back. Do not, 0:55:53.840 --> 0:55:56.120 I repeat, do not send me any of the advertisers 0:55:56.120 --> 0:55:58.080 that just aired. I don't care what they are. My 0:55:58.200 --> 0:56:00.640 life is indebted. I don't care. I don't care. 0:56:01.440 --> 0:56:04.080 You can send them to you can send them to Sophie. 0:56:04.080 --> 0:56:06.719 Her Twitter is at I right, okay. 0:56:06.560 --> 0:56:08.200 I write, okay, Senator Sophie. 0:56:08.200 --> 0:56:08.480 All right. 0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:15.360 So while this Trump University, too will remain uncredited. Donald Trump, 0:56:15.400 --> 0:56:17.800 creator of the Donald Trump board game that did not 0:56:17.880 --> 0:56:22.279 sell very well in nineteen eighty what, yeah, didn't you? Yeah, 0:56:22.320 --> 0:56:23.560 creator of the Donald Trump board game. 0:56:23.719 --> 0:56:27.520 Yeah? Wow, okay, is it like monopoly? But you just 0:56:27.600 --> 0:56:28.600 look lie and generate. 0:56:28.800 --> 0:56:29.160 I didn't. 0:56:29.280 --> 0:56:30.879 I didn't look too far into it for the bit. 0:56:30.960 --> 0:56:32.359 I'm gonna be honest here. 0:56:32.440 --> 0:56:34.960 This is yah. Disappointed. I was ready to go to 0:56:35.080 --> 0:56:35.560 deep dive. 0:56:36.560 --> 0:56:41.400 But Donald Trump also plans to attack the current accreditation 0:56:41.480 --> 0:56:45.799 system for being run by a communist scourge, which leads 0:56:45.880 --> 0:56:48.920 us to our second Agenda forty seven, topic titled quote 0:56:49.360 --> 0:56:54.200 protecting students from the radical Left and Marxist maniacs infecting 0:56:54.360 --> 0:56:58.520 educational institutions. But I believe he's talking about you, James. 0:56:58.360 --> 0:57:01.720 Yeah, which is ironic. I'm an akiss, not a Marxist. 0:57:01.920 --> 0:57:03.000 You're not an artist maniac? 0:57:03.400 --> 0:57:06.200 No, No, sadly, not many such cases, but I do 0:57:06.239 --> 0:57:10.000 make them read the Communist Manifesto in my one oh 0:57:10.000 --> 0:57:10.600 one class. 0:57:10.800 --> 0:57:12.240 It's okay, it's okay. 0:57:12.440 --> 0:57:14.319 You got to read it. You got to it. It's 0:57:14.320 --> 0:57:16.880 something you should emerge from history education having read. 0:57:17.680 --> 0:57:21.080 So, Trump starts for talking about how quote unquote academics 0:57:21.120 --> 0:57:26.240 are quote obsessed with indoctrinating America's youth at colleges and 0:57:26.360 --> 0:57:30.680 universities while charging a ballooning tuition fee. Trump claims to 0:57:30.680 --> 0:57:33.080 have a quote unquote secret weapon that he will use 0:57:33.120 --> 0:57:37.120 to quote reclaim our once great educational institutions from the 0:57:37.240 --> 0:57:42.080 radical left, the college accreditation system. It's called accreditation for 0:57:42.160 --> 0:57:49.560 a reason. It's called accreditation for a reason. He never 0:57:49.640 --> 0:57:54.280 extravolates on that. I genuinely don't. I can't fathom what 0:57:54.320 --> 0:57:56.960 I think he means. That could go in so many directions. 0:57:57.000 --> 0:57:59.560 There's no way to know. There's no way to know. 0:58:00.040 --> 0:58:01.000 It just leaves a hanging. 0:58:02.560 --> 0:58:05.840 So Trump explains that quote accreditors are supposed to ensure 0:58:05.840 --> 0:58:08.600 that schools are not ripping off students and taxpayers, but 0:58:08.680 --> 0:58:12.320 they have failed totally unquote, which is not really what 0:58:12.360 --> 0:58:16.880 college accreditors do. Both government run and private accreditation organizations 0:58:16.880 --> 0:58:20.480 exist to develop criteria and CONDUCTI valuations to ensure educational 0:58:20.600 --> 0:58:23.880 quality and authorize if a school qualifies for student aid 0:58:23.880 --> 0:58:27.000 programs from the Department of Education. That's generally what accreditation 0:58:27.040 --> 0:58:31.160 institutions do. They don't look out for if students are 0:58:31.160 --> 0:58:34.880 being ripped off, like that's not really their role, but whatever. 0:58:35.400 --> 0:58:38.760 So upon returning to sixteen hundred Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, DC, 0:58:39.040 --> 0:58:42.720 Donald Trump promised that he will quote fire the radical 0:58:42.800 --> 0:58:46.240 left accreditors that have allowed our colleges to become dominated 0:58:46.280 --> 0:58:50.360 by Marxist maniacs and lunatics. So he believes that there's 0:58:50.360 --> 0:58:53.400 like communists that are running the accreditation system and that's 0:58:53.440 --> 0:58:57.080 what's currently ruining colleges. That is his belief. 0:58:57.800 --> 0:58:59.520 They come in, they sit at the back, and this 0:58:59.600 --> 0:59:01.560 is the right. The little book has to be read, 0:59:02.200 --> 0:59:06.080 and then we have a criticism circle afterwards where they 0:59:06.400 --> 0:59:08.800 check how many marked references you've made in your lecture. 0:59:10.200 --> 0:59:13.520 So after sending all these communists to the goolag, Trump 0:59:13.560 --> 0:59:17.800 will then begin to quote accept applications for newer creditors. 0:59:18.560 --> 0:59:21.000 Now it's unclear if he's talking about just like the 0:59:21.000 --> 0:59:24.760 public or private sector here, but these newer creditors will 0:59:24.840 --> 0:59:29.080 quote impose real standards and colleges once again, and once 0:59:29.160 --> 0:59:33.880 and for all. Now what such standards you ask? Thank you? 0:59:33.960 --> 0:59:38.880 James Wells. Trump gave us a handy little list which includes, 0:59:38.960 --> 0:59:42.360 like some of the more average conservative to libertarian esque 0:59:42.360 --> 0:59:47.160 positions like protecting free speech, eliminating wasteful administrative positions that 0:59:47.240 --> 0:59:50.760 drive up costs, offering options for accelerated and low cost degrees, 0:59:50.760 --> 0:59:54.600 providing meaningful job placement and career services, and implementing college 0:59:54.800 --> 0:59:57.200 entrants and exit exams to prove that students are actually 0:59:57.240 --> 0:59:59.720 learning or getting their money's worth, right, Which all that 0:59:59.720 --> 1:00:02.479 sounds like kind of standard politician talk, right, It's like, okay, sure, 1:00:02.800 --> 1:00:05.640 but Trumpe did mention a few other standards that will 1:00:05.680 --> 1:00:09.800 be imposed once again by this new generation of accreditors, 1:00:10.280 --> 1:00:14.520 which will also include quote defending the American tradition and 1:00:14.600 --> 1:00:19.680 Western civilization and removing all Marxist diversity, equity and inclusion 1:00:19.800 --> 1:00:24.920 be a regrets unquote. So i dei the right's new 1:00:25.000 --> 1:00:28.800 favorite boogieyman that's responsible from everything from rising university costs 1:00:28.880 --> 1:00:33.080 to botched surgeries, aviation incidents, and boat's malfunctioning in cladding 1:00:33.080 --> 1:00:36.720 with bridges. It is it is the villain of the 1:00:36.960 --> 1:00:41.480 of the conservative right at the moment, and so because 1:00:41.520 --> 1:00:44.240 this has been a trending topic among conservatives, Trump's trying 1:00:44.280 --> 1:00:47.560 to jump on this DEI train, which sounds incredibly dangerous 1:00:47.680 --> 1:00:53.919 from their perspective because this term he probably never even 1:00:53.960 --> 1:00:55.320 heard of before, like a year ago. 1:00:55.560 --> 1:00:58.040 Like, come on, no, I don't think he. I don't 1:00:58.040 --> 1:01:01.200 think he implemented DII in his business institutions. I think 1:01:01.200 --> 1:01:03.920 this is. Yeah, it's a word they say when they 1:01:03.920 --> 1:01:06.800 can't say slurs. They think they've found a funny workaround 1:01:06.920 --> 1:01:07.760 to saying slurs. 1:01:07.920 --> 1:01:10.520 I mean, that's this thing with like every time someone 1:01:10.560 --> 1:01:14.600 says like like critical race theory, woke or DEI, they're 1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:16.919 really just trying to say a slur. And if and if, 1:01:18.440 --> 1:01:21.080 if you replace those three terms with just a slur, 1:01:21.400 --> 1:01:23.520 their sentences make a lot more sense because the way 1:01:23.520 --> 1:01:25.840 they use the word woke does not mean anything in 1:01:25.880 --> 1:01:27.800 a lot of cases. But if you just replace it 1:01:27.800 --> 1:01:29.800 for a racial slur, you're like, oh, now I can 1:01:29.920 --> 1:01:33.320 understand what they're saying. It's it's it's a handy trick 1:01:33.400 --> 1:01:35.640 that really is not fun to think about. 1:01:36.320 --> 1:01:37.800 Yeah, or subtle. 1:01:38.840 --> 1:01:42.640 As a part of this DEI frenzy. Trump has promised 1:01:42.680 --> 1:01:46.400 to quote direct the Department of Education to pursue federal 1:01:46.560 --> 1:01:50.280 civil rights cases against the schools they continue to engage 1:01:50.320 --> 1:01:54.640 in racial discrimination unquote, which also kind of calls upon 1:01:54.720 --> 1:01:57.480 like older, like affirmative action complaints that conservatives have been 1:01:57.520 --> 1:01:58.600 talking about for years. 1:01:58.640 --> 1:02:00.920 Now, That's what I wanted he was going after. 1:02:01.360 --> 1:02:03.160 Yeah, it kind of it ties into that as well. 1:02:03.240 --> 1:02:06.680 And and Trump added that this race based discrimination quote 1:02:06.960 --> 1:02:11.800 includes discrimination against Asian Americans unquote, which is definitely invoking 1:02:11.880 --> 1:02:15.439 that style of affirmative action conservative rhetoric from like, yeah, ten, 1:02:15.760 --> 1:02:16.520 five years ago. 1:02:16.800 --> 1:02:19.200 Yeah, even more recent, when was that Supreme Court case? 1:02:20.080 --> 1:02:21.520 Oh yeah, that was that was that was just like 1:02:21.600 --> 1:02:26.080 last year Becky with the bad grades. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 1:02:26.120 --> 1:02:29.720 So beyond just threatening to sick the DOJ on woke schools, 1:02:30.440 --> 1:02:33.600 Trump also made the more specific promise that if schools 1:02:33.640 --> 1:02:38.160 quote persist in explicit unlawful discrimination under the guise of 1:02:38.200 --> 1:02:41.840 equity unquote, he will not only make sure that their 1:02:41.920 --> 1:02:46.760 endowments be taxed, but also quote, through budget reconciliation, I 1:02:46.760 --> 1:02:49.160 will advance to measure to have them find up to 1:02:49.200 --> 1:02:52.080 the entire amount of their endowment. Quote. 1:02:52.680 --> 1:02:55.000 Did he realize that, no, no schools have endowments, Like I 1:02:55.040 --> 1:02:57.400 teach you the community college, We ain't got an endowment. 1:02:58.720 --> 1:03:01.800 No, he's I'm sure that he's gonna go after like 1:03:01.960 --> 1:03:05.160 the Harvard endowment. Yeah, that's gonna track. Yeah, I have 1:03:05.600 --> 1:03:09.600 fun finding fifty billion dollars from Harvard. That's totally gonna happen. 1:03:10.920 --> 1:03:15.160 But his plan after he seizes these endowments quote, a 1:03:15.240 --> 1:03:17.720 portion of the seized funds will then be used as 1:03:17.840 --> 1:03:22.120 restitution for victims of these illegal and unjust policies, policies 1:03:22.160 --> 1:03:26.360 that hurt our country so badly. Colleges have gotten hundreds 1:03:26.400 --> 1:03:29.400 of billions of dollars from hard working taxpayers, and now 1:03:29.400 --> 1:03:32.680 we're gonna get this anti American insanity out of our 1:03:32.720 --> 1:03:39.560 institutions once and for all. So that's cool, Like, okay, sure, 1:03:39.800 --> 1:03:42.439 you're gonna use this to pay back white people who've 1:03:42.480 --> 1:03:47.640 been if we've been denied college admission. Okay, cool, that 1:03:47.720 --> 1:03:49.640 sounds like a winning electoral strategy. 1:03:49.720 --> 1:03:51.960 You have finally the reparations people. 1:03:52.160 --> 1:03:55.480 Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know who's had it too hard 1:03:55.520 --> 1:03:56.080 for too long? 1:03:56.160 --> 1:03:59.560 Chance it's white people who didn't make it through college garrets. 1:04:00.360 --> 1:04:02.400 Uh, it's it's because they didn't get it's because they 1:04:02.400 --> 1:04:04.160 didn't go to Yale. Now they have to go to Princeton. 1:04:04.760 --> 1:04:07.840 Yeah, embarrassing, right, why would you even bother? 1:04:08.400 --> 1:04:12.840 So it's but it's not just colleges. Trump also threatened 1:04:12.880 --> 1:04:16.240 to quote cut federal funding for any school or program 1:04:16.400 --> 1:04:22.240 publishing critical race theory, gender ideology, or other inappropriate racial, sexual, 1:04:22.320 --> 1:04:25.400 or political content onto our children. We're not going to 1:04:25.480 --> 1:04:27.280 allow it to happen, folks. 1:04:27.400 --> 1:04:29.600 Very cool, Great, Yeah, I used to teach a gender 1:04:29.640 --> 1:04:33.600 sociology course forward to defund defund. Yeah, yeah, I know 1:04:34.040 --> 1:04:36.240 we're going down fight together. We're gonna do that shit. 1:04:36.360 --> 1:04:39.160 They will have to fight that way in don't say 1:04:39.200 --> 1:04:39.640 that on air. 1:04:39.720 --> 1:04:43.000 You can't say that you're gonna turn your community college 1:04:43.040 --> 1:04:46.959 into a you can't say that. So, yeah, he's gonna 1:04:46.960 --> 1:04:51.800 go after school, regular schools, both colleges, universities, regular schools. 1:04:51.840 --> 1:04:55.400 If there's doing any any CRT gender ideology, you can 1:04:55.400 --> 1:04:56.840 tell that some of this was written like a year 1:04:56.840 --> 1:04:58.520 and a half ago, because no, no one's talking about 1:04:58.520 --> 1:04:59.560 critical race theory anymore. 1:04:59.600 --> 1:05:02.440 But yeah, yeah he missed it. But like, can you 1:05:02.480 --> 1:05:05.400 imagine teaching a sociology course and just being like, yeah, 1:05:05.480 --> 1:05:07.360 we're gonna skip past race and gender. 1:05:07.720 --> 1:05:11.400 Oh so politics past politics. 1:05:13.600 --> 1:05:16.680 Yeah, this is a man who himself went to Like, 1:05:17.240 --> 1:05:18.600 did he go to Harvard or Yale? 1:05:18.920 --> 1:05:20.400 No, he did not go to either. He was sent 1:05:20.400 --> 1:05:21.760 to a military school by his father when he was 1:05:21.800 --> 1:05:23.920 thirteen for being annoying. Then he think he went to 1:05:23.960 --> 1:05:27.600 a school in Pennsylvania, respect And then what other school 1:05:27.600 --> 1:05:28.200 did he go to? 1:05:28.960 --> 1:05:30.360 Critical respect to his dad? 1:05:30.680 --> 1:05:32.480 He yeah, he went to the New York Military Academy. 1:05:32.480 --> 1:05:35.440 That he went to Fordham University and then the University 1:05:35.480 --> 1:05:37.160 of Pennsylvania's Wharton School. 1:05:37.560 --> 1:05:44.000 Oh yeah, Wharton Business School. Yeah, not a real graduate degree. 1:05:44.640 --> 1:05:48.720 So the reason why this is also evils because Trump 1:05:48.760 --> 1:05:51.160 thinks that a lot of this stuff is basically forming 1:05:51.200 --> 1:05:54.720 a new religion. All this woke stuff. Quote, the Marxism 1:05:54.760 --> 1:05:57.280 being preached in our schools is totally hostile to Judeo 1:05:57.440 --> 1:06:01.760 Christian teachings, and in many ways it resemblesablishing a new religion. 1:06:02.200 --> 1:06:06.080 Can let that happen. I can't let that happen. 1:06:07.680 --> 1:06:10.240 One thing we take a big swing at is Judeo 1:06:10.320 --> 1:06:12.160 Christian institutions. 1:06:11.960 --> 1:06:15.120 To combat this growing threat of religious Marxism. 1:06:15.320 --> 1:06:19.200 His administration, I'm sorry, I can't, I cannot wrote. 1:06:19.360 --> 1:06:25.000 Oh, his administration will quote aggressively pursue potential violations of 1:06:25.040 --> 1:06:29.280 the establishment clause and the free exercise clause of the Constitution. 1:06:29.760 --> 1:06:30.840 That's very simple. 1:06:32.560 --> 1:06:34.880 I think you quite understand before we met of that 1:06:34.880 --> 1:06:38.200 that luckily we do Russian Orthodox Marxism at my university, 1:06:38.200 --> 1:06:41.480 so we should say, god, yeah, well a lot of beards. 1:06:42.120 --> 1:06:44.840 So and then, in kind of like a laundry list 1:06:44.840 --> 1:06:48.160 of policies and talking points, Trump pledged to quote veto 1:06:48.280 --> 1:06:56.360 the sinister effort to weaponize civics education, we will keep 1:06:56.400 --> 1:06:58.680 men out of women's sports and will create a new 1:06:58.720 --> 1:07:01.640 credentialing body that'll be the gold standard anywhere in the 1:07:01.640 --> 1:07:05.600 world to certified teachers who embrace patriotic values, support a 1:07:05.600 --> 1:07:07.480 way of life, and understand that their job is not 1:07:07.520 --> 1:07:11.440 to indoctrinate children, but very simply to educate them. 1:07:11.760 --> 1:07:13.760 No one's ever done. No one has ever created a 1:07:13.800 --> 1:07:17.120 credentialing body for patriotic teachers who embrace quote our way 1:07:17.160 --> 1:07:19.960 of life before, it's never been done. 1:07:20.480 --> 1:07:23.280 Their efforts to weaponize civics. 1:07:23.440 --> 1:07:28.040 Yeah, just imagine him looking for the Civics bill. 1:07:28.480 --> 1:07:30.919 Yeah, very funny, So probably distract him for a while. 1:07:30.960 --> 1:07:32.560 Stuff, I'm doing some actual terrible shit. 1:07:33.240 --> 1:07:35.800 A little bit with that last part was like indoctrinating children, 1:07:35.800 --> 1:07:38.400 And this next little bit will kind of demonstrate how 1:07:38.800 --> 1:07:43.200 stuff like QAnon didn't simply go away like some have postulated. Instead, 1:07:43.320 --> 1:07:46.960 it's just been absorbed into the fabric of American politics. 1:07:47.400 --> 1:07:49.840 No longer does the boogeyman have to be a DNC 1:07:50.040 --> 1:07:53.800 pedophilic elite. Now it's been territorialized and destroyed and mutated 1:07:54.000 --> 1:07:57.040 into just being any school teacher and or like every 1:07:57.080 --> 1:08:01.880 trans person right or God forbid a transgender school, which 1:08:02.000 --> 1:08:06.320 is like the prime evil of the current conservative society. 1:08:06.840 --> 1:08:09.880 And Trump promises on day one of his new presidency 1:08:09.920 --> 1:08:14.560 he will quote begin to find and remove the radicals, zealots, 1:08:14.600 --> 1:08:18.280 and Marxists who have infiltrated the Department of Education, and 1:08:18.360 --> 1:08:21.000 that also includes others. And you know who you are, 1:08:21.560 --> 1:08:24.960 because we are not going to allow anyone to hurt 1:08:25.120 --> 1:08:31.400 our children. You are, you know who you are. So 1:08:31.720 --> 1:08:34.880 this is the weaponization of nearly eight years of QAnon rhetoric, right, 1:08:34.920 --> 1:08:37.080 that is, that has grown past the ney to actually 1:08:37.120 --> 1:08:39.320 invoke q and on plus the two years of the 1:08:39.320 --> 1:08:42.160 Republican Party, The Daily wire and limbs of TikTok working 1:08:42.200 --> 1:08:45.919 to shift q Andon's kind of disgrace and unfocused momentum 1:08:46.200 --> 1:08:49.840 towards a manufactured continuation in the form of this transgender 1:08:49.920 --> 1:08:54.000 groomer craze that's taking over American schools. Quote Joe Biden 1:08:54.040 --> 1:08:57.320 has given these lunatics unchecked power. I will have them 1:08:57.360 --> 1:08:59.559 fired and escorted from the building, and I will tell 1:08:59.640 --> 1:09:04.040 Kung any appropriations bill I sign must reaffirm the president's 1:09:04.040 --> 1:09:07.599 ability to remove defined employees from the job. It's all 1:09:07.640 --> 1:09:09.520 about our children. 1:09:09.400 --> 1:09:14.360 Ute just imagining an executive order to remove someone from 1:09:14.400 --> 1:09:15.280 their lecture. 1:09:16.400 --> 1:09:19.320 I am going to be signing an executive order on 1:09:19.320 --> 1:09:32.800 this podcast. To go to another ad break, we are 1:09:32.960 --> 1:09:36.240 back and thank you James Berg for reaffirming my ability 1:09:36.280 --> 1:09:38.240 to remove defiant ads. 1:09:38.880 --> 1:09:41.799 Yeah, well, why you were all away that several federal 1:09:41.800 --> 1:09:43.880 agents came in and in certain an ad break. 1:09:44.800 --> 1:09:46.680 In this last section here, we're going to return to 1:09:46.760 --> 1:09:51.080 Trump's conception that entire alternatives are needed to America's broken, 1:09:51.560 --> 1:09:55.040 woke school system, now focusing on the grade school side 1:09:55.120 --> 1:09:58.040 rather than just the post secondary. So in this vein, 1:09:58.200 --> 1:10:02.320 Trump is courting the growing now number of homeschooling families, though, 1:10:02.320 --> 1:10:04.960 according to a Washington Post poll from last year, Republican 1:10:05.000 --> 1:10:08.360 homeschoolers outnumbered Democrat ones two to one, so he kind 1:10:08.360 --> 1:10:10.120 of already has the majority of that vote, but still 1:10:10.280 --> 1:10:13.400 something he is going after. According to Trump, ever since 1:10:13.520 --> 1:10:17.920 quote the China virus, America has seen an estimated thirty 1:10:18.000 --> 1:10:22.759 percent increase in homeschool enrollment unquote. It's just a funny 1:10:22.840 --> 1:10:25.400 term as homeschool in roll. Yeah, yeah, just going to 1:10:25.439 --> 1:10:29.400 the homeschool to enroll. I'm going to be enrolling at homeschool. 1:10:29.920 --> 1:10:32.719 Very funny an if elective president for a second time, 1:10:33.160 --> 1:10:36.639 he will do everything to support quote parents who make 1:10:36.680 --> 1:10:41.160 the courageous choice of homes school unquote. Again, the way 1:10:41.200 --> 1:10:45.040 he uses home the word homeschool is unlike anyone else 1:10:45.120 --> 1:10:45.720 has ever heard. 1:10:45.800 --> 1:10:46.040 Talk. 1:10:46.439 --> 1:10:50.160 It is a very odd use of the English language. 1:10:50.280 --> 1:10:53.000 Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand parts of speech like no, 1:10:53.320 --> 1:10:54.400 just what won no. 1:10:54.760 --> 1:10:57.000 And Trump said he'll work to ensure that homeschoolers will 1:10:57.000 --> 1:10:59.799 be entitled to all the benefits available to non homeschool students, 1:11:00.000 --> 1:11:02.919 able to participate in athletic programs, clubs, after school activities, 1:11:03.040 --> 1:11:07.400 educational trips, and more. He pledged that in his next term, 1:11:07.439 --> 1:11:10.320 he will allow five to nine education savings accounts to 1:11:10.360 --> 1:11:15.760 be used for quote costs associated with homeschool education. A 1:11:15.880 --> 1:11:18.880 current five to nine savings accounts allow families to withdraw 1:11:19.000 --> 1:11:20.880 up to ten thousand dollars a year to spend tax 1:11:20.920 --> 1:11:23.920 free on tuition for private schools, which Trump called a 1:11:24.000 --> 1:11:28.160 quote tremendous win for his school choice, very important school choice. 1:11:28.200 --> 1:11:31.680 To remember that term unquote, that term never comes up 1:11:31.680 --> 1:11:37.600 again in this video. Great, So Trump is pledging to 1:11:38.400 --> 1:11:42.280 expand this tuition savings program to include homeschooling families as well, 1:11:42.680 --> 1:11:45.640 with a very unknown system of checks and balances to 1:11:45.680 --> 1:11:50.519 determine what exactly qualifies as costs related to homeschooling. And 1:11:51.439 --> 1:11:54.880 often homeschooling is used by abusive parents to just have 1:11:55.400 --> 1:11:58.000 kids do free labor around the house, and they try 1:11:58.040 --> 1:12:01.040 to make it count as like education. And like if 1:12:01.080 --> 1:12:03.160 you're now allowing parents to put money to a savings 1:12:03.160 --> 1:12:05.960 account to remove ten thousand a year tax free spent 1:12:06.040 --> 1:12:08.800 on education, like what does what does that mean? Does 1:12:08.840 --> 1:12:13.040 that mean just curriculum? Does that mean like household supplies? 1:12:13.120 --> 1:12:17.160 Because that's being put towards their homeschool because they're schooling 1:12:17.200 --> 1:12:19.519 at home. Like very very unclear, and it's kind of 1:12:19.760 --> 1:12:23.400 refers back to some of the general problems homeschooling, especially 1:12:23.400 --> 1:12:26.320 in like conservative homeschooling or just as a large way 1:12:26.360 --> 1:12:29.160 to abuse children, not in like the groomer way that 1:12:29.240 --> 1:12:31.000 right wing people talk about. It's like, no, you're just 1:12:31.040 --> 1:12:33.880 literally like limiting your kids' access to the outside world 1:12:33.880 --> 1:12:35.680 because you think if they go outside they're going to 1:12:35.760 --> 1:12:40.160 turn gay. So but even if oh sorry, there's there's 1:12:40.200 --> 1:12:43.200 one one final quote from this homeschooling video, which are 1:12:43.320 --> 1:12:49.400 just fucking phenomenal to every homeschool family. I will be 1:12:49.520 --> 1:12:53.599 your champion. Do not vote Democrat. They're looking to destroy you. 1:12:53.680 --> 1:12:56.439 If you don't mind me saying that Joe Biden can't 1:12:56.479 --> 1:13:00.000 put two sentences together and yet he's looking to destroy you. 1:13:00.120 --> 1:13:02.799 Do not vote Democrats. Do not vote for crooked Joe. 1:13:03.479 --> 1:13:12.599 Vote for honest Donald, Thank you very much. It's funny 1:13:12.600 --> 1:13:16.479 because in the video when he says vote for honest Donald, 1:13:16.760 --> 1:13:20.160 he also starts to crack up because he knows how 1:13:20.240 --> 1:13:21.360 ridiculousness is. 1:13:22.000 --> 1:13:22.240 God. 1:13:23.400 --> 1:13:26.920 Do not vote for crooked Joe, Vote for honest Dundald, 1:13:27.080 --> 1:13:31.280 thank you very much, very very cool, looking to destroy you. 1:13:31.320 --> 1:13:32.800 If you don't mind be saying. 1:13:33.040 --> 1:13:35.679 Yeah, if you don't mind me a man who rarely 1:13:35.720 --> 1:13:37.960 asks permission to say the most extame shit. 1:13:39.320 --> 1:13:41.880 So, even if parents are not choosing to homeschool, Trump 1:13:41.920 --> 1:13:45.120 wants to let voters know that he will fight for parents' rights. 1:13:45.840 --> 1:13:48.280 Which isn't quite a dog whistle, but it does refer 1:13:48.320 --> 1:13:51.479 to a very specific style of patriarchal rhetoric popularized by 1:13:51.560 --> 1:13:55.280 hyper religious conservative think tanks. I propose an extremely narrow 1:13:55.360 --> 1:13:57.760 version of how the American family should operate within society. 1:13:58.160 --> 1:14:01.200 More on this later. But so, what can Trump do 1:14:01.360 --> 1:14:03.479 to let right wing religious parents know that he will 1:14:03.479 --> 1:14:06.719 be their champion even in like blue states or big cities. 1:14:07.120 --> 1:14:09.240 As much as Trump might want to be a dictator, 1:14:09.280 --> 1:14:12.760 he doesn't have unlimited power to impose his war on 1:14:12.800 --> 1:14:16.280 wokeness in liberal cities. But Donald Trump, who was impeached 1:14:16.280 --> 1:14:18.400 for trying to blackmail the president of Ukraine in summer 1:14:18.400 --> 1:14:20.920 of twenty nineteen, does have a plan. He wants to 1:14:21.000 --> 1:14:27.760 quote implement massive funding preferences and favorable treatment unquote for 1:14:27.920 --> 1:14:32.120 states and school districts that make four specific quote historic 1:14:32.280 --> 1:14:38.120 reforms and education that Trump has decreed. These four specific 1:14:38.640 --> 1:14:43.680 reforms include abolishing tenure for K through twelve teachers so 1:14:43.720 --> 1:14:46.839 that we can quote remove bad teachers and adopt merit 1:14:46.840 --> 1:14:50.599 pay to reward good teachers. The second is to quote 1:14:50.720 --> 1:14:54.120 drastically cut the blowed number of school administrators, including the 1:14:54.200 --> 1:15:00.200 costly and divisive and unnecessary deibureaucracy. Third to ad to 1:15:00.240 --> 1:15:03.680 parental bill of rights that includes complete curriculum transparency in 1:15:03.720 --> 1:15:07.439 the form of universal school choice, and lastly, quote implement 1:15:07.560 --> 1:15:12.040 the direct election of school principles by the parents. Trump 1:15:12.080 --> 1:15:15.640 calls this last bit the ultimate form of local control, 1:15:15.960 --> 1:15:18.320 something our country has never had, or at least has 1:15:18.360 --> 1:15:21.360 not had for the last fifty years. So those are 1:15:21.400 --> 1:15:25.160 his four reform plans, which is like, yeah, you know 1:15:25.160 --> 1:15:27.519 who's had it too easy for too long, teachers. Let's 1:15:27.920 --> 1:15:32.080 abolish ten year adopt merit pay a disaster of a system, 1:15:32.320 --> 1:15:35.600 cut administrative roles to put more work on teachers, have 1:15:36.000 --> 1:15:39.960 parents be able to fire fire principles by voting, and 1:15:40.200 --> 1:15:43.360 a vote to elect their own principle, and universal school 1:15:43.400 --> 1:15:45.640 choices is actually more of a dog whistle that it 1:15:45.720 --> 1:15:48.720 just refers to a series of like very racist, like 1:15:48.800 --> 1:15:52.120 urban planning policies to direct rich white people's funding into 1:15:52.160 --> 1:15:54.160 a very few selected number of schools instead of where 1:15:54.160 --> 1:15:56.320 they actually like live and instead of the actual district 1:15:56.360 --> 1:15:59.800 they live in. So there's all of that, and like 1:16:00.160 --> 1:16:02.200 what Trump keeps coming back to among all these quote 1:16:02.240 --> 1:16:06.520 unquote reforms, it all kind of relates to complete parental dominance. 1:16:06.640 --> 1:16:09.400 And part of this was the parental Bill of Rights, 1:16:09.439 --> 1:16:12.599 which you've probably seen some conservatives talking about more these 1:16:12.640 --> 1:16:17.160 past few years. And this is another quote from Trump here. 1:16:17.439 --> 1:16:19.800 It's all about the parents for their children more than 1:16:19.840 --> 1:16:24.080 anyone else. Parents know what their children need. And if 1:16:24.120 --> 1:16:26.240 you haven't heard of a parental bill of rights directly, 1:16:26.400 --> 1:16:28.479 you most certainly have heard of one by another name 1:16:28.800 --> 1:16:31.519 that don't say gay bill, that was a parental rights bill, 1:16:31.600 --> 1:16:35.240 a sensibly targeting education, but these bills often end up 1:16:35.320 --> 1:16:38.400 giving parents just complete control over every aspect of the 1:16:38.479 --> 1:16:41.439 child's life. They dictate how children are allowed to express themselves, 1:16:41.439 --> 1:16:44.000 and allow parents to impose nearly any discipline or punishment. 1:16:44.040 --> 1:16:46.800 They desire total control over what the child eats, what 1:16:46.840 --> 1:16:48.599 they wear, what they read, what they watch, what they 1:16:48.600 --> 1:16:51.479 see online, and what they're allowed to learn in school, 1:16:51.680 --> 1:16:54.639 who they're allowed to socialize with. Some of these bills 1:16:54.640 --> 1:16:57.880 that I read through for this also bar mandatory masking 1:16:57.920 --> 1:17:00.280 policies and schools back when that was the thing, and 1:17:00.439 --> 1:17:03.599 are often full of anti vax talking points and attempts 1:17:03.640 --> 1:17:07.599 to ban sex ed and quote unquote gender politics. As 1:17:07.600 --> 1:17:09.840 a part of these bills, teachers in school administration are 1:17:09.880 --> 1:17:13.080 legally required to act as parental surveillance tools to report 1:17:13.120 --> 1:17:15.479 how a child behaves, how they socialize, how they dress, 1:17:15.680 --> 1:17:17.280 how they like to be referred to in who they 1:17:17.320 --> 1:17:20.600 are friends with. This includes outing children as gay or 1:17:20.600 --> 1:17:23.880 trands to parents if anyone in the school suspects that 1:17:23.920 --> 1:17:27.479 the student has a non heterosexual sexual orientation or is 1:17:27.560 --> 1:17:30.920 acting in any way inconsistent with their assigned gender at birth. 1:17:31.880 --> 1:17:34.320 These types of bills often have other consequences as well. 1:17:34.600 --> 1:17:36.400 In states where some of these bills have passed, like 1:17:36.439 --> 1:17:39.720 North Carolina, due to legal risks, some elementary schools have 1:17:39.760 --> 1:17:42.800 been unable to talk about or give out educational materials 1:17:42.800 --> 1:17:45.920 on consent or how to identify when child sexual abuse 1:17:45.960 --> 1:17:49.160 is taking place as a part of the Safe Touch programs. 1:17:49.520 --> 1:17:51.840 These programs are basically unable to happen because teachers will 1:17:51.880 --> 1:17:55.800 now be held personally legally liable if any parent objects 1:17:55.800 --> 1:17:59.479 to this material so parental rights bills have been signed 1:17:59.479 --> 1:18:02.759 into law in six states over the past two legislative years, 1:18:02.800 --> 1:18:06.720 famously Florida, as well as Arizona, Georgia, Louisiana, Iowa, and 1:18:06.800 --> 1:18:09.600 North Carolina. Since then, similar bills have been introduced in 1:18:09.640 --> 1:18:11.840 more than twenty five states, many of which have passed 1:18:11.880 --> 1:18:15.360 through at least one chamber. Some of them are still 1:18:15.720 --> 1:18:18.200 in the process of either passing through a second chamber 1:18:18.280 --> 1:18:21.479 or being signed by the governor. I'm gonna end with 1:18:21.560 --> 1:18:25.120 two quotes here from Trump that kind of reiterate this 1:18:25.800 --> 1:18:28.880 parental dominance thing that he's really pushing for. And also 1:18:29.000 --> 1:18:31.439 people like Ronda Santis have been pushing for Ted Cruz 1:18:31.880 --> 1:18:35.439 a lot of writing politicians quote as the saying goes, 1:18:35.720 --> 1:18:38.200 personnel is policy. And at the end of the day, 1:18:38.560 --> 1:18:41.960 if we have pink haired communists teaching our kids, we 1:18:42.040 --> 1:18:45.439 have a major problem. When I'm president, we will put 1:18:45.479 --> 1:18:48.280 parents back in charge and give them the finals say. 1:18:48.600 --> 1:18:51.960 We will get back to teaching reading, writing, and math 1:18:52.320 --> 1:18:56.519 called arithmetic, and we will kill our kids the high 1:18:56.640 --> 1:19:03.280 quality pro American education they deserve. They're gonna teach you 1:19:03.439 --> 1:19:05.120 math called arithmetic. 1:19:06.360 --> 1:19:08.320 Magnificent, amazing. 1:19:09.760 --> 1:19:12.040 We may spend the most. But we're going to be 1:19:12.160 --> 1:19:16.360 tops in education no matter, no matter where you go 1:19:16.479 --> 1:19:20.240 anywhere in the world, We're gonna be tops in education. 1:19:20.560 --> 1:19:23.360 There will be no bottoms in the American education system 1:19:23.400 --> 1:19:23.920 going forward. 1:19:24.800 --> 1:19:28.200 So this is this is Donald Trump, the second host 1:19:28.360 --> 1:19:30.759 of the TV show The Apprentice, who's run for public office. 1:19:31.280 --> 1:19:35.680 This is his plan for education. Doctor James Stout, how 1:19:35.680 --> 1:19:38.800 do you feel about about these education reform proposals. 1:19:39.560 --> 1:19:41.240 Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't seem like a weird idea, 1:19:41.320 --> 1:19:44.040 if I'm being honest, Having having listened to it, I 1:19:44.040 --> 1:19:47.599 think perhaps he hasn't got the sharpest grasp on what's 1:19:47.640 --> 1:19:50.719 going on in the education system. The reason we have 1:19:51.320 --> 1:19:55.559 education is because your parents don't necessarily know what's best 1:19:55.560 --> 1:19:57.240 for you, right, Like your. 1:19:57.080 --> 1:19:59.120 Parents can't be an expert in everything. 1:19:59.400 --> 1:20:02.000 Yes, so some of us go and get PhDs so 1:20:02.080 --> 1:20:06.040 we can, and then we teach your people how the 1:20:06.080 --> 1:20:09.719 important things about that like you, by definition, your parents 1:20:09.800 --> 1:20:13.479 cannot fulfill all the roles in an education system fulfills and. 1:20:13.680 --> 1:20:18.160 Like unlike pink haired communists who have complete who have 1:20:18.200 --> 1:20:20.720 complete total control over every aspect of what a child 1:20:20.720 --> 1:20:21.240 should learn. 1:20:21.560 --> 1:20:23.840 It's one of the things when you enter the university, 1:20:23.880 --> 1:20:26.240 you know, like they did a tuberculosis test and then 1:20:26.240 --> 1:20:28.599 they pass you a pink hair dye and I mean 1:20:29.800 --> 1:20:31.320 you get a nose piercing as well. 1:20:31.680 --> 1:20:34.080 A lot of this is very much reminiscent of like 1:20:34.120 --> 1:20:38.080 the the fears of like communist education that you see 1:20:38.160 --> 1:20:41.439 in like the nineteen thirties. How there's a lot of 1:20:41.479 --> 1:20:44.759 political a lot of political tension trying to be raised 1:20:45.160 --> 1:20:48.520 over the fear that there's communists teaching you in universities 1:20:48.520 --> 1:20:49.080 and schools. 1:20:49.520 --> 1:20:51.880 Yeah, it's interesting because at the same time. 1:20:51.920 --> 1:20:53.839 Like Frankfurt school style stuff. 1:20:54.120 --> 1:20:58.040 Yeah, yeah, I've written a lot about like anarchist ideals, 1:20:58.439 --> 1:21:01.439 educational ideals rights at the same time, they were anarchists 1:21:01.479 --> 1:21:03.280 in Spain being like, you know, we should do we 1:21:03.320 --> 1:21:05.320 should do all our classes in the forest. Let's just 1:21:05.360 --> 1:21:08.680 go out into the forest. Or absolutely there was a 1:21:08.680 --> 1:21:11.200 school by the sea where they talked kids like they 1:21:11.200 --> 1:21:14.160 were just having this incredible utopian education dream, which in 1:21:14.200 --> 1:21:18.320 many ways we still haven't adapted to some of the 1:21:18.320 --> 1:21:21.439 things that that really could offer, and instead, yeah, we're 1:21:21.479 --> 1:21:23.960 having this McCarthyism Part two. 1:21:25.560 --> 1:21:28.719 Well, great, that is Trump's plan for education. In case, 1:21:28.800 --> 1:21:31.599 in case you didn't know, so watch out for those 1:21:31.640 --> 1:21:34.520 pink cared communists. Keep an eye out for any parental 1:21:34.560 --> 1:21:37.800 bill of rights being proposed in your state. And it 1:21:37.280 --> 1:21:41.760 is probably has little little to do with actually protecting 1:21:42.120 --> 1:21:46.840 children and more to do with making parents just complete 1:21:47.200 --> 1:21:50.280 dominating force and controlling every aspect of their child's life. 1:21:50.439 --> 1:21:52.200 And I mean the other sins we're thinking about this, 1:21:52.280 --> 1:21:56.280 it's like it removes access to for kids to talk 1:21:56.360 --> 1:21:58.920 about things that they may be upset. 1:21:58.640 --> 1:22:02.559 About, and access to mandated reporters, like exactly, a mandated 1:22:02.640 --> 1:22:06.120 reporter like this seems to exactly it's away from that exactly. 1:22:06.240 --> 1:22:09.280 And and I mean the idea that that that schools 1:22:09.280 --> 1:22:11.880 are going to be legally required to out a child 1:22:11.960 --> 1:22:16.280 if he's if they're acting like perceived to be deviant 1:22:16.400 --> 1:22:19.800 in some like gender sexual way. Like all of these 1:22:19.840 --> 1:22:24.400 things are just ways to enable parental abuse in a 1:22:24.479 --> 1:22:26.839 variety of like ways that are explicit and non explicit. 1:22:27.000 --> 1:22:29.519 And it's it's it's it's it's quite it's quite upsetting. 1:22:30.280 --> 1:22:32.880 And that's the that's the thing that conservatives are are 1:22:32.880 --> 1:22:34.960 currently trying to push for. This is a big topic. 1:22:35.000 --> 1:22:37.360 This stuff was talking about in the Republican primaries that 1:22:37.400 --> 1:22:40.760 were completely useless, constantly stuff like this is something this 1:22:40.880 --> 1:22:43.439 is referred to while invoking the sphere of like this 1:22:43.560 --> 1:22:46.840 pink haired transgender communist teacher, which is currently like the 1:22:46.920 --> 1:22:50.000 biggest threat to America according to most conservatives. 1:22:50.760 --> 1:22:52.720 Yeah, they're taking us down from the inside. 1:22:53.040 --> 1:22:56.040 That and jihadism, which are probably linked somehow. 1:22:56.800 --> 1:23:00.000 Yeah, yeah, I think, Well it's the pink head jahttiest famous. 1:23:02.120 --> 1:23:05.120 Well that isn't for us today. What are we going 1:23:05.200 --> 1:23:08.440 to be learning about next for Agenda forty seven games, Well, 1:23:08.439 --> 1:23:11.160 we're going to be learning next about immigration. Don Donald 1:23:11.160 --> 1:23:13.240 Trump's border policies. Many of you will be shocked to 1:23:13.240 --> 1:23:17.000 hear that they're not very good. And well, I have 1:23:17.040 --> 1:23:18.960 two classes this summer if you're if you're in San 1:23:19.000 --> 1:23:20.960 Diego and you want to get in before they take 1:23:21.000 --> 1:23:26.200 the Marxism out of the education system, you can but 1:23:26.360 --> 1:23:27.000 strike now. 1:23:28.120 --> 1:23:29.600 I do love how I do love how much of 1:23:29.640 --> 1:23:30.840 this is. Like do you know who's had it easy 1:23:30.880 --> 1:23:33.960 for too long? Transgender teachers there? 1:23:35.200 --> 1:23:37.360 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the people who are so fucking 1:23:37.400 --> 1:23:40.000 broke they have to have like go fundmes up for 1:23:40.040 --> 1:23:42.240 their gender reassignment surgery. 1:23:42.479 --> 1:23:45.920 Great wonderful stuff. Yeah, all right, we will be back 1:23:45.920 --> 1:23:48.800 tomorrow to talk about Trump's border policies. Things that will 1:23:48.800 --> 1:23:51.360 probably be totally normal, totally chill. 1:23:51.720 --> 1:23:54.519 Yeah, it's very very similar to fucking Faddy. They are 1:23:54.600 --> 1:23:57.000 similar to Biden's but that's a whole other just terpy. 1:23:56.840 --> 1:23:59.360 That's a whole other discussions. All right, See you are 1:23:59.439 --> 1:24:00.240 the other side. 1:24:00.680 --> 1:24:23.960 Bye, Hello, and welcome back to It could happen here 1:24:23.960 --> 1:24:26.360 in your daily dose of the horrors that are in 1:24:26.400 --> 1:24:29.720 fact already happening all around us. I'm your occasional host, 1:24:29.800 --> 1:24:31.800 Molly Conger, and I am delighted to be joined today 1:24:31.800 --> 1:24:35.880 by the critically acclaimed author of Culture Warlords, journalist researcher, 1:24:36.120 --> 1:24:40.759 sword enthusiast, Sandwich expert, and my friend Talia Lavid. 1:24:41.280 --> 1:24:41.599 Hello. 1:24:42.560 --> 1:24:45.240 Yeah, I once introduced myself at an event as a 1:24:45.280 --> 1:24:49.760 Sandwich historian, which I think was the pinnacle of my 1:24:49.840 --> 1:24:54.360 public speaking career. But this is a second pinnacle. Hey, Molly, 1:24:54.439 --> 1:24:54.920 what's up? 1:24:55.400 --> 1:24:57.240 Thank you so much for coming on today to talk 1:24:57.240 --> 1:25:00.920 with me about your new book, Wild Faith, is coming 1:25:00.920 --> 1:25:03.760 out in just a few weeks October fifteenth. 1:25:03.439 --> 1:25:06.719 Right, Yeah, Wild Faith, How the Christian Right is taking 1:25:06.760 --> 1:25:10.679 over America. Not the terrible b movie entitled Wild Faith. 1:25:11.280 --> 1:25:14.960 Yeah, the SEO is scrambled on that one. But the book, however, 1:25:15.400 --> 1:25:17.960 is very good. I mean, first of all, I just 1:25:18.000 --> 1:25:20.400 want to say, like I've been reading the gally copy 1:25:20.439 --> 1:25:22.320 that you sent me, which I honestly made me feel 1:25:22.400 --> 1:25:25.080 very fancy. I've never received a galley copy of a 1:25:25.080 --> 1:25:27.120 book that's not out yet before, so I felt, you know, 1:25:27.720 --> 1:25:30.200 kind of a kind of a broadcasting professional with my 1:25:30.840 --> 1:25:31.519 special book. 1:25:31.800 --> 1:25:34.599 It's an exclusive club. You're one of like five people 1:25:34.680 --> 1:25:35.320 thus read it. 1:25:35.400 --> 1:25:37.640 Oh my god, that is that's very exclusive. 1:25:38.000 --> 1:25:40.840 Yeah, well it's about to become a lot less exclusive, 1:25:40.880 --> 1:25:42.599 so feel special while you can, right. 1:25:43.160 --> 1:25:44.720 But I realized while I was reading it, you know, 1:25:44.760 --> 1:25:47.360 I have my little sticky tabs because I'm reading a 1:25:47.360 --> 1:25:51.599 lot more books lately, regrettably not not big time book guy. 1:25:52.479 --> 1:25:54.759 It's always reading. I read a lot of court documents, 1:25:54.760 --> 1:25:56.000 but I'm reading a lot of books right now for 1:25:56.160 --> 1:25:58.639 research for my show, and it's like my little sticky tabs. 1:25:58.720 --> 1:26:02.519 And as in reading it, I realize I'm not marking 1:26:02.560 --> 1:26:04.560 passages that I think would be useful for us to 1:26:04.600 --> 1:26:07.559 talk about in this interview. I'm just putting my little 1:26:07.600 --> 1:26:11.360 tabs on passages that just like punched me in the gut, 1:26:11.560 --> 1:26:11.760 you know. 1:26:13.280 --> 1:26:16.800 Ah, sorry for punching you. 1:26:16.400 --> 1:26:18.559 No, but I mean, I mean with the way the 1:26:18.560 --> 1:26:21.080 power of your words, because like a lot of what 1:26:21.120 --> 1:26:26.320 I'm reading sucks. It's just right, Like I spent all 1:26:26.400 --> 1:26:30.520 day yesterday reading like twenty five year old Issues of Resistance, 1:26:30.600 --> 1:26:34.519 which was the quarterly magazine for a white power music label. 1:26:36.000 --> 1:26:38.160 So this, I mean it's a real departure, So you know, 1:26:38.439 --> 1:26:41.160 really just reveling in the richness of the pros and 1:26:41.760 --> 1:26:44.160 the fact that it, you know, didn't want to kill me. 1:26:45.600 --> 1:26:45.840 Yeah. 1:26:46.240 --> 1:26:50.519 No, I also have experienced neo Nazi research fatigue, and 1:26:50.640 --> 1:26:55.639 also just like the sort of relentless grimness of flowing 1:26:55.680 --> 1:26:59.519 through these like fundamentally hostile texts, and also like academic texts, 1:26:59.560 --> 1:27:02.519 which are difficult in their own way. I try to 1:27:02.520 --> 1:27:07.080 write accessively or just like excitingly. I find that a 1:27:07.120 --> 1:27:13.160 lot of especially nonfiction sort of journalism me books tend 1:27:13.240 --> 1:27:15.040 to be a little dry, and I'm like, let's not 1:27:15.120 --> 1:27:19.920 be dry. Let's be like spicy, and you know, like 1:27:20.320 --> 1:27:23.599 form and function, Like you're more likely to be moved 1:27:23.600 --> 1:27:26.600 by a message if you find the writing compelling. 1:27:27.200 --> 1:27:28.720 You know, it's just you have. 1:27:28.680 --> 1:27:30.120 Such a way with words. I mean, you know this, 1:27:30.200 --> 1:27:32.559 You're a professional writer. I don't want to embarrass you 1:27:32.600 --> 1:27:33.040 on the show. 1:27:34.120 --> 1:27:38.920 So I'm twirling my hair like, yes, but I do 1:27:39.080 --> 1:27:39.800 write for a living. 1:27:40.120 --> 1:27:42.240 If you'll indulge me, if it's legal, if the publisher 1:27:42.280 --> 1:27:44.559 will allow this. I just want to read this passage 1:27:44.560 --> 1:27:46.759 from the introduction that I think is a good jumping 1:27:46.800 --> 1:27:48.160 off point, and it was one of the first things 1:27:48.160 --> 1:27:50.840 I marked because I was just like, oh, hell yeah, 1:27:50.880 --> 1:27:55.200 we're getting into this. There's good words in here, okay. 1:27:56.200 --> 1:27:58.920 The Christian Right is a force in American politics and 1:27:59.040 --> 1:28:01.879 has been for decades, half a century to be precise, 1:28:02.240 --> 1:28:05.160 during which it has steadily gained power. It started in 1:28:05.200 --> 1:28:08.080 school rooms, continued in court rooms, and perseveres with the 1:28:08.080 --> 1:28:10.040 aid of people who are perfectly willing to call in 1:28:10.080 --> 1:28:13.960 bomb threats to hospitals and attempt to overturn elections. It 1:28:14.000 --> 1:28:17.120 features self proclaimed prophets with a distinct interest in politics, 1:28:17.640 --> 1:28:20.960 newly minted apostles with very definite ideas about spiritual battle 1:28:21.000 --> 1:28:24.120 and its earthly components, and pastors eager to usher in 1:28:24.120 --> 1:28:26.960 the end of the world. Its adherents have hymns and 1:28:27.000 --> 1:28:30.400 devotionals and speaking tongues on occasion, and the showiest among 1:28:30.400 --> 1:28:32.799 them are known to march their cities, blowing Ram's horns 1:28:33.160 --> 1:28:35.760 in an effort to topple, as Joshua once did, the 1:28:35.800 --> 1:28:39.280 wicked cities of the world. They have their own insular world, 1:28:39.400 --> 1:28:42.519 their own media apparatus. They have legislators who could fire 1:28:42.520 --> 1:28:45.439 in Brimstone's speeches from the badly carpeted rooms where laws 1:28:45.439 --> 1:28:48.800 are made. They have lawyers too, And in case the 1:28:48.880 --> 1:28:53.439 lawyers fail, there's always the promise of congregations that might 1:28:53.479 --> 1:28:58.560 coalesce into mobs or arsonists whose burning holy zeal coalesces 1:28:58.600 --> 1:29:03.920 into the tiny pinpoint of a molotop cocktail. And I 1:29:04.000 --> 1:29:08.400 knew from the intro that we were in for a ride. 1:29:08.640 --> 1:29:12.320 Yeah, it's like cast of characters, the worst people ever, 1:29:12.479 --> 1:29:16.120 but like, let's write about it in an exciting way. 1:29:17.400 --> 1:29:19.599 I think that one of the themes of the book 1:29:19.720 --> 1:29:24.800 is really how these extra legal extremist movements like the 1:29:24.840 --> 1:29:30.280 anti abortion terror movement, and the legal framework of a 1:29:30.320 --> 1:29:34.720 movement work together. I actually initially heard about this from 1:29:34.760 --> 1:29:37.320 a friend who was talking about how, like during the 1:29:37.360 --> 1:29:39.760 gay rights movement, you had sort of the act up 1:29:40.240 --> 1:29:43.000 built demonstrations, the diants and then you have the sort 1:29:43.040 --> 1:29:47.160 of like more respectively coded like gay people who you know, 1:29:47.200 --> 1:29:50.160 we're talking to the government and trying to get elected 1:29:50.280 --> 1:29:52.559 and you know, really trying to influence research, and that 1:29:52.640 --> 1:29:56.519 every movement needs sort of a radical outside and then 1:29:56.560 --> 1:29:59.760 a respectable inside. And I'm like, oh, this works in 1:30:00.160 --> 1:30:05.000 like the acratic movements too, where you have like this 1:30:05.280 --> 1:30:08.880 you know, fringe that's burning down clinics, and then people 1:30:09.000 --> 1:30:13.160 steadily working for fifty years to like ban abortion, and 1:30:13.200 --> 1:30:16.280 they have the same DNA and they have the same goals. 1:30:16.720 --> 1:30:19.639 They just go about it differently but complement each other. 1:30:20.040 --> 1:30:22.639 And I think that's like a running theme in the book, 1:30:22.720 --> 1:30:26.440 is that like you have lawyers and you have legislators, 1:30:26.479 --> 1:30:29.599 and then you have mobs and they're sort of all 1:30:29.640 --> 1:30:33.880 working towards the same goals. And that's really what we're seeing, 1:30:33.920 --> 1:30:37.920 I think, on the Christian Right after decades of building power. 1:30:38.640 --> 1:30:40.559 Yeah, one of the notes that I wrote down in 1:30:40.560 --> 1:30:42.080 that vein while I was reading was that you know, 1:30:42.120 --> 1:30:45.200 the Christian Right drives its power across a spectrum, right 1:30:45.240 --> 1:30:48.080 from the clinic bomber to the senator, but it's not 1:30:48.120 --> 1:30:49.640 you know, you might say the two sides of the 1:30:49.640 --> 1:30:52.599 same coin. But to me it looks like this isn't 1:30:52.600 --> 1:30:56.040 two different spheres of power too sort of separate but 1:30:56.160 --> 1:31:01.439 coexisting or comorbid ideologies. They're just different numbers on the 1:31:01.479 --> 1:31:04.240 same dial, right, it's turning up and turning down. 1:31:04.920 --> 1:31:08.800 Yeah, it's like the hand that lights the torch and 1:31:08.840 --> 1:31:11.920 the hand that puts it to the you know, pire. 1:31:12.880 --> 1:31:17.439 They perform different functions, but they have really the same goals. 1:31:17.600 --> 1:31:23.520 And if like me, you view stripping half the populace 1:31:23.560 --> 1:31:29.000 of its bodily autonomy, imposing a theocracy, hounding queer people 1:31:29.040 --> 1:31:35.840 out of public life, slash into death as fundamentally violent goals, Yeah, 1:31:35.840 --> 1:31:40.000 I don't think there's like a respectable iteration necessarily. There's 1:31:40.080 --> 1:31:44.280 just cosplaying respectability and right. 1:31:44.320 --> 1:31:46.200 You can say it with a tie on on the 1:31:46.240 --> 1:31:48.599 Senate floor, but it's it's the same message. 1:31:48.680 --> 1:31:53.600 Yeah, And I think so much of our media apparatus 1:31:53.640 --> 1:31:59.400 and governmental apparatus is really sort of views like again 1:31:59.439 --> 1:32:02.080 this like four and function, right, Like if you are 1:32:02.200 --> 1:32:05.880 if you say something politely, it doesn't really matter what 1:32:05.920 --> 1:32:09.719 you're saying, Like if you say something with a suit 1:32:09.840 --> 1:32:12.559 on in the register of like you know, in a 1:32:12.600 --> 1:32:17.400 calm sort of Mike Pencian, Rush Limbaugh and decaf as 1:32:17.439 --> 1:32:17.920 he called. 1:32:17.760 --> 1:32:18.760 Himself a boy, She says. 1:32:18.760 --> 1:32:20.519 Did he say that, Yeah, that's what he called himself 1:32:20.520 --> 1:32:24.560 when he read it, did a like evangelical radio show. Yeah, no, 1:32:24.560 --> 1:32:26.240 no matter what you say, as long as you are 1:32:26.280 --> 1:32:30.160 like white and you say it politely, like this is 1:32:30.200 --> 1:32:33.160 fundamentally sort of fine. And then if you look at 1:32:33.200 --> 1:32:35.600 it from you know, a step or two back, and 1:32:35.600 --> 1:32:39.479 you're like, no, actually, no matter how politely say it, 1:32:39.520 --> 1:32:45.320 this is like a violent, deeply unpopular theocratic agenda that 1:32:45.479 --> 1:32:51.679 like fundamentally is incompatible with multiracial democracy. I also think, 1:32:52.200 --> 1:32:55.599 and I keep running into this, like well meaning liberals 1:32:55.600 --> 1:32:57.840 being like, but isn't there a separation of church and state? 1:32:57.840 --> 1:32:59.559 And I'm like, I don't know. Do you fucking think 1:32:59.600 --> 1:33:01.400 there is a in Alabama? Do you think there is 1:33:01.439 --> 1:33:06.640 in Arkansas? And all of these you know in Texas, 1:33:06.680 --> 1:33:10.280 Like all of these figures are like, we're Christians, We're 1:33:10.320 --> 1:33:12.799 making laws for Jesus, and. 1:33:12.640 --> 1:33:15.120 We have covenant marriages and we want you to too. 1:33:15.320 --> 1:33:18.160 Yeah, like we're gonna outlaw divorce because of God. And like, 1:33:18.800 --> 1:33:22.400 you know, women dying of sepsis in hospital parking lots 1:33:22.439 --> 1:33:25.800 is what Jesus wants and like, and I experienced this, 1:33:26.120 --> 1:33:29.080 I think you probably have to when you like report 1:33:29.120 --> 1:33:35.320 on you know, zealots and extremists, and people inevitably wind 1:33:35.400 --> 1:33:40.000 up like measuring other people's weep by their own bushel. 1:33:40.040 --> 1:33:42.839 In other words, they're like, they can't really believe this stuff, 1:33:42.840 --> 1:33:46.280 and it's like, no, they really do. They can't really 1:33:46.320 --> 1:33:48.800 have these goals. First of all, they do, but also 1:33:49.160 --> 1:33:52.439 doesn't matter, right, I mean the question of like impact 1:33:52.560 --> 1:33:56.080 versus intent. First of all, I think it's perfectly possible 1:33:56.120 --> 1:33:57.920 to be both a grifter and a true believer at 1:33:57.960 --> 1:33:58.639 the same time. 1:33:59.040 --> 1:34:00.280 That's just synergy. 1:34:00.760 --> 1:34:01.880 Yeah. 1:34:01.280 --> 1:34:06.160 And also fundamentally, this is a world premis done grievance, 1:34:06.320 --> 1:34:08.880 where it's this idea that like the world has got 1:34:08.880 --> 1:34:11.760 one oh, we're on you. And so in a sense, 1:34:11.800 --> 1:34:14.839 grift is just like, well, you know, the world's corrupt 1:34:14.880 --> 1:34:18.200 and I'm fighting a righteous cause, So what does it 1:34:18.240 --> 1:34:22.200 matter the ethics that I sort of skip on along 1:34:22.240 --> 1:34:22.599 the way. 1:34:23.120 --> 1:34:25.320 I mean, once you've amped the stakes up to we're 1:34:25.360 --> 1:34:28.519 fighting the literal devil and everyone who's getting in my 1:34:28.600 --> 1:34:32.640 way is animated by actual demons from hell. I mean 1:34:32.680 --> 1:34:34.920 the steaks couldn't be higher, so you do what you 1:34:35.000 --> 1:34:35.639 have to do. 1:34:36.400 --> 1:34:39.000 Exactly, and it's this theory of power. And so then 1:34:39.080 --> 1:34:42.720 people sort of standing outside of that paradigm who are 1:34:42.760 --> 1:34:45.160 not keyed into this idea of like we're in an 1:34:45.160 --> 1:34:49.240 ethical spiritual battle, like and we must create like a 1:34:49.400 --> 1:34:53.000 kingdom of Christ on earth in America to win against 1:34:53.000 --> 1:34:56.560 the devil, and then people outside being like, you're hypocrites, 1:34:56.600 --> 1:34:59.280 and it's like it's not a valid criticism to them 1:34:59.280 --> 1:35:01.559 because they're like, first of all, you're not like a 1:35:01.640 --> 1:35:04.960 Christian if you're a liberal, but also like you're not 1:35:05.080 --> 1:35:09.360 on our level, like we're fighting Lucifer and you're probably 1:35:09.840 --> 1:35:12.800 a stand like on his team if you oppose us. So, 1:35:13.320 --> 1:35:18.200 you know, a multitude of apparent hypocrisies can be excused 1:35:18.240 --> 1:35:21.120 by the idea that like this is a holy war 1:35:21.240 --> 1:35:26.800 and in war there's like all kinds of avert behavior. 1:35:26.439 --> 1:35:28.600 That's doing holy war crimes. 1:35:29.120 --> 1:35:29.920 Yeah, exactly. 1:35:30.280 --> 1:35:32.160 I mean this is why, for example, you see a 1:35:32.200 --> 1:35:36.599 lot of like prominent female figures from Philish Lafley, you know, 1:35:36.680 --> 1:35:39.800 in the seventies and eighties to like the trad wives now, 1:35:39.840 --> 1:35:42.120 and it's like, how does this fit in with your 1:35:42.560 --> 1:35:45.880 overall sort of idea that women should be chaste and 1:35:46.080 --> 1:35:48.320 submissive and meek and silent. I mean, first of all, 1:35:48.320 --> 1:35:50.600 tradwife stuff is often fetish. 1:35:50.920 --> 1:35:53.479 Spanish content, but yeh, I mean pilish laffy made a 1:35:53.520 --> 1:35:58.600 living professionally saying that women shouldn't make a living professionally, 1:35:59.040 --> 1:36:01.200 but that contradiction doesn't matter. 1:36:01.600 --> 1:36:04.360 Yeah, I mean I think I call them valkyries for 1:36:04.600 --> 1:36:06.960 feminine submission in the book. 1:36:07.479 --> 1:36:08.120 Yeah, I mean, at the. 1:36:08.160 --> 1:36:10.320 End of the day, like if you believe that this 1:36:10.400 --> 1:36:14.360 is your your calling, your mission, you know, your mission 1:36:14.400 --> 1:36:17.439 field in the service of the Lord to undo the 1:36:17.439 --> 1:36:20.960 demonic sort of influence of feminism, Like of course you're 1:36:21.000 --> 1:36:22.439 going to. 1:36:21.880 --> 1:36:24.040 Speak, You've been moved by God to do so. 1:36:24.439 --> 1:36:29.560 Yeah, And of course, like female leaders with the evangelical community, 1:36:30.120 --> 1:36:33.479 like sort of minority Republicans can be like knocked off 1:36:33.520 --> 1:36:36.960 their pedestal quicker and easier, but like they still can 1:36:37.000 --> 1:36:40.840 come out and exist and testify and Schlaughley throughout her 1:36:41.479 --> 1:36:45.360 very long prolific and lucrative career, you know, was like 1:36:45.400 --> 1:36:49.720 I'm a housewife with six kids, and that was her 1:36:49.840 --> 1:36:52.000 that was how she defined herself even while being this 1:36:52.080 --> 1:36:56.200 incredibly prominent figure and one of the sort of key 1:36:56.360 --> 1:37:00.960 architects of the current Christian right coalition of like when Catholics, 1:37:01.680 --> 1:37:05.000 she and Paul Leric and Leonard Leo and some other 1:37:05.040 --> 1:37:09.680 right wing Catholics brought these Catholic values of being all 1:37:09.720 --> 1:37:13.680 about abortion to the evangelical right, which prior to the 1:37:13.680 --> 1:37:15.599 seventies is like, that's a weird Catholic thing. 1:37:16.080 --> 1:37:17.439 You don't really care I. 1:37:17.400 --> 1:37:19.720 Wanted to talk about that. So I'm not sure how 1:37:19.760 --> 1:37:24.719 sort of common knowledge this is, but the Protestant Christian 1:37:24.760 --> 1:37:28.400 community in the United States did not care about abortion 1:37:28.600 --> 1:37:30.839 until the seventies. It was not an issue in their communities. 1:37:30.880 --> 1:37:34.120 They were generally pro abortion. They were you know, the 1:37:34.160 --> 1:37:36.200 Baptists were in favor of Roe V. Wade. 1:37:36.640 --> 1:37:39.760 Yeah, the fucking Southern Baptist Convention came out in like 1:37:40.160 --> 1:37:42.400 seventy four, I think it was, and was like, yeah, 1:37:42.560 --> 1:37:44.080 we approved of rov Wade. 1:37:44.400 --> 1:37:46.840 So it's not like, you know, opposition to abortion is 1:37:47.160 --> 1:37:52.080 baked into Christianity. It is baked into the American Evangelical 1:37:52.160 --> 1:37:55.440 Christianity of post nineteen seventy five or so. 1:37:55.840 --> 1:37:59.920 Because of this sort of conscious cynical political. 1:37:59.280 --> 1:38:02.680 Decision, and that I think is so interesting because you know, 1:38:02.920 --> 1:38:05.200 you get into this conversation of well, what are their 1:38:05.240 --> 1:38:07.760 deeply held beliefs and do they really believe it and 1:38:07.800 --> 1:38:11.519 does that matter? But we can pin down the moment 1:38:11.560 --> 1:38:15.280 they started believing this and we know why, and it's segregation. 1:38:16.280 --> 1:38:18.880 Yeah, I mean, first of all, I would say, like 1:38:18.880 --> 1:38:22.599 people can still like this is like several generations later 1:38:22.760 --> 1:38:28.080 of like constant barrages of extremely violent propaganda against abortions. 1:38:28.120 --> 1:38:31.080 So right, so the belief is sincere today, but you 1:38:31.120 --> 1:38:34.200 could look at it where it was born. Yeah, exactly, 1:38:34.240 --> 1:38:36.280 you should have been aborted, right, Yeah. 1:38:36.240 --> 1:38:38.280 No, it definitely should not have been carried to term. 1:38:38.280 --> 1:38:40.280 But like it's it's crazy. 1:38:40.400 --> 1:38:44.880 And in addition, Tomah's book Randall Baumer does some really 1:38:44.920 --> 1:38:48.760 good coverage of this. So the sort of general arc 1:38:48.960 --> 1:38:53.880 is like three sort of nineteen seventies, you had this 1:38:53.960 --> 1:39:00.600 like generally conservative population of Southern Baptists who we're like 1:39:00.760 --> 1:39:03.760 on board with McCarthyism, hated the godless Reds, but kind 1:39:03.800 --> 1:39:08.120 of viewed politics as like worldly and not really their 1:39:08.160 --> 1:39:13.040 sphere and we're not particularly politically engaged. And then brown 1:39:13.160 --> 1:39:18.839 versus a board of Education passes immediately the white Christian 1:39:18.960 --> 1:39:23.960 populist just disinvests these from the public schools, leaving multiple 1:39:24.040 --> 1:39:28.320 counties in the South without functionally any public education at all. 1:39:28.720 --> 1:39:34.120 And this mushroom after rain, kind of like patch of 1:39:34.840 --> 1:39:38.800 patches of parochial schools with church or Christian in the 1:39:38.920 --> 1:39:42.880 name start popping up, and they're all white schools. Their 1:39:42.920 --> 1:39:46.080 segregation academies is the sort of term of art for these, 1:39:46.160 --> 1:39:51.599 and they're explicitly under a Christian agis they're religious schools. 1:39:52.000 --> 1:39:53.960 Their tax exempt as a result. 1:39:54.240 --> 1:39:58.439 And then in like the late sixties and seventies, the 1:39:58.479 --> 1:40:02.720 government was like, you can't be tax exempt and like 1:40:02.880 --> 1:40:07.960 considered a charitable organization if you are segregated and don't 1:40:08.000 --> 1:40:09.040 have any black. 1:40:08.840 --> 1:40:10.720 Students or minority students. 1:40:11.280 --> 1:40:14.880 And that is what woke the sleeping dragon of the 1:40:15.120 --> 1:40:18.519 Christian right really like, you know, get your filthy government 1:40:18.560 --> 1:40:20.200 hands off our tax exemptions. 1:40:20.280 --> 1:40:23.000 Like they just went, you know nuts. 1:40:23.040 --> 1:40:26.960 They were really mobilized, you know, like these are the 1:40:26.960 --> 1:40:29.840 people who are like growing tomatoes at Ruby Bridges, Like 1:40:30.280 --> 1:40:33.479 you know, they're really politically motivated for the first time 1:40:33.960 --> 1:40:38.480 because they're experiencing like a consequence for segregation. 1:40:39.160 --> 1:40:42.360 And so this is when like Jerry. 1:40:42.080 --> 1:40:48.160 Fowell and Ralph Reid and you know, James Dobson start 1:40:48.200 --> 1:40:51.280 sort of coming forward and being more prominent. And then 1:40:51.840 --> 1:40:54.880 by the sort of mid seventies to eighties, you had 1:40:55.200 --> 1:41:00.599 these like savvy or political operators coming out and saying, hey, guys, 1:41:00.840 --> 1:41:05.320 segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever. Is like, it's great 1:41:05.360 --> 1:41:08.960 that it really fired y'all up, but it has sort 1:41:08.960 --> 1:41:10.400 of a limited appeal. 1:41:10.760 --> 1:41:12.439 And they shot George Wallace. It's over. 1:41:12.960 --> 1:41:15.760 Yeah, Like there's gonna be a ceiling on that, and 1:41:15.800 --> 1:41:18.160 a lot of people think you suck. So why don't 1:41:18.160 --> 1:41:19.920 you get it on the ground on this new civil 1:41:20.040 --> 1:41:23.839 rights struggle abortion, where you can fight for the unborn 1:41:23.960 --> 1:41:25.880 who conveniently will never. 1:41:26.880 --> 1:41:29.720 Disagree with you, right, their voices don't have to be 1:41:29.800 --> 1:41:31.400 centered here. We can speak for them. 1:41:31.800 --> 1:41:36.040 I mean, they're the most convenient political constituency in history. 1:41:35.920 --> 1:41:39.320 Right because they're so innocent and you can't milkshake duck 1:41:39.360 --> 1:41:40.720 a fetus. He's not even here. 1:41:41.200 --> 1:41:43.920 Yeah, he can't talk, but he's not gonna say shit. 1:41:56.040 --> 1:41:59.400 So I mean that's like the very capsule history. And 1:41:59.400 --> 1:42:01.880 then of course becomes this idea of like the moral 1:42:01.920 --> 1:42:05.320 majority and where the Guardians of America's soul and we're 1:42:05.360 --> 1:42:06.960 gonna get really weird about sex. 1:42:07.600 --> 1:42:08.960 Also, it's just. 1:42:08.840 --> 1:42:11.200 Like if you strip it all the way down to 1:42:11.240 --> 1:42:14.360 the studs, Like the core of this is women are 1:42:14.360 --> 1:42:17.479 bleeding to death in hospital parking lots because Jerry Folwell 1:42:17.560 --> 1:42:22.800 didn't want to pay his taxes or stop being racist. Yeah, 1:42:22.920 --> 1:42:24.479 I mean that's not fair. 1:42:24.880 --> 1:42:28.680 No, people sometimes like are a little skeptical when I'm like, 1:42:28.720 --> 1:42:32.720 all of the hatreds are interconnected. But then you look 1:42:32.720 --> 1:42:36.400 at like concrete historical examples of like this world historical 1:42:36.439 --> 1:42:37.440 wave of misogyny. 1:42:37.439 --> 1:42:38.040 I mean, it's not. 1:42:38.040 --> 1:42:42.320 That this population wasn't like weird about sex or weird 1:42:42.320 --> 1:42:43.160 about women. 1:42:43.160 --> 1:42:43.760 Like to start with. 1:42:43.840 --> 1:42:45.800 I mean maybe they would have gotten here a different way, 1:42:46.240 --> 1:42:47.400 but that's how we got here. 1:42:47.680 --> 1:42:50.479 Yeah, we got here by just like, no, we will 1:42:50.560 --> 1:42:56.280 pay taxes on our segregation academies. Bob Jones University's inter 1:42:56.439 --> 1:43:01.640 racial dating ban is perfectly great, and we're gonna mobilize 1:43:01.680 --> 1:43:04.720 about it. And so what you have then now is 1:43:04.880 --> 1:43:08.760 just like fifty years of political lock step because and 1:43:09.360 --> 1:43:10.160 you see this in like. 1:43:10.120 --> 1:43:12.040 Other religious communities, I mean, like I know. 1:43:12.400 --> 1:43:15.320 Like it's sort of notorious how much corruption slides by 1:43:15.360 --> 1:43:17.880 in New York because like the consident communities vote as 1:43:17.880 --> 1:43:22.800 a block, Like it is very useful to have a 1:43:22.880 --> 1:43:25.200 congregation that all votes the same way. 1:43:25.640 --> 1:43:26.960 It's politically useful. 1:43:27.120 --> 1:43:30.160 I mean, what other populations can you get together once 1:43:30.160 --> 1:43:32.680 a week as a captive audience and speak to with 1:43:32.760 --> 1:43:35.040 authority if you can mobilize those people. And that's what 1:43:35.120 --> 1:43:37.639 Jerry Folwell saw, right, is like this is a great 1:43:37.680 --> 1:43:40.280 way to get a lot of people to vote the 1:43:40.280 --> 1:43:41.320 way I want them to vote. 1:43:41.880 --> 1:43:44.880 Yeah, And you know, the church has always been like 1:43:44.880 --> 1:43:49.240 a really prominent institution in American civil society, especially as 1:43:50.120 --> 1:43:54.120 the rest of sort of civil society has fallen away 1:43:54.280 --> 1:43:57.320 and degraded. Like churches are some of the only social 1:43:57.400 --> 1:44:00.720 outlets that Americans have. And what's interest when you talk 1:44:00.760 --> 1:44:03.880 to evangelicals and next evangelicals is just like being a 1:44:03.960 --> 1:44:06.800 Republican is like part of their religious identity in a 1:44:06.800 --> 1:44:10.040 major way. It's like this is how you vote, and 1:44:10.080 --> 1:44:13.160 this is you know, how you dress, and this is 1:44:13.160 --> 1:44:16.160 how you go to church and so on. But like 1:44:16.280 --> 1:44:18.679 the idea of being a democrat is like not only 1:44:19.520 --> 1:44:22.080 you know, a little bit out of step with your community, 1:44:22.120 --> 1:44:22.920 it's heretical. 1:44:23.040 --> 1:44:24.280 I mean, that's how the demons give in. 1:44:24.680 --> 1:44:28.280 Yeah, yeah, demoncrats, I mean, and like, yeah, it's stupid. 1:44:28.320 --> 1:44:31.280 But it's also like half of the people saying demoncrats, 1:44:31.280 --> 1:44:34.200 like literally mean democrats are aligned with Lucifer. 1:44:34.560 --> 1:44:36.599 And I think that's a point that I don't want 1:44:36.640 --> 1:44:38.920 to get lost on the listener. This you know, this 1:44:39.040 --> 1:44:43.000 idea that people literally have demons in them, that demons 1:44:43.040 --> 1:44:45.680 are active in the world, that demons are motivating the 1:44:45.720 --> 1:44:49.439 actions of their enemies. It's real for them. And I'm 1:44:49.439 --> 1:44:53.360 not saying that to be derisive or you know, it's real. 1:44:53.520 --> 1:44:56.760 It's real. It is an animating factor for a lot 1:44:56.800 --> 1:45:00.320 of these people. And that's hard to wrap your mind around. 1:45:00.800 --> 1:45:03.840 I mean, I struggle with the idea that that is 1:45:03.880 --> 1:45:05.800 real for them. But like that's how you get things 1:45:05.840 --> 1:45:08.320 like satanic panic, and we see echoes of satanic panic 1:45:08.360 --> 1:45:11.200 in this idea of you know, groomers in kids' schools, 1:45:11.200 --> 1:45:15.679 they really have this fundamental, like foundational belief in this, 1:45:16.120 --> 1:45:18.000 you know, whether or not they're calling it demons, that 1:45:18.080 --> 1:45:21.479 the existence of some sort of ontological evil that is 1:45:21.520 --> 1:45:24.439 coming for their children. And like, once you arrive at 1:45:24.439 --> 1:45:26.519 the place where like where you understand that that's real 1:45:26.560 --> 1:45:28.840 for them, their actions make more sense, like they're not 1:45:28.880 --> 1:45:31.680 behaving irrationally if you if you truly believe that these 1:45:31.680 --> 1:45:33.679 things were happening, you'd act crazy too. 1:45:34.439 --> 1:45:37.439 Yeah, I mean it's really hard to get people to 1:45:37.520 --> 1:45:41.599 step outside their own worldviews, and in both directions, right, 1:45:41.760 --> 1:45:45.639 Like I don't believe that demons are you know, abroad 1:45:45.680 --> 1:45:49.120 in the world and motivating like every element of political 1:45:49.160 --> 1:45:50.400 action to someone who. 1:45:50.320 --> 1:45:54.800 I'm starting to see them some places, but generally no. 1:45:54.160 --> 1:45:58.519 To someone who does my viewpoint is incomprehensible and vice versa. 1:45:58.760 --> 1:46:01.160 So I think part of I mean not that I'm 1:46:01.200 --> 1:46:03.439 like one of those people that's like polarization is the 1:46:03.439 --> 1:46:06.640 big problem, like you know, as opposed to anything with 1:46:06.720 --> 1:46:10.400 like concrete policy, like you know where it's like the 1:46:10.400 --> 1:46:12.400 big problem is we all don't like each other enough. 1:46:12.439 --> 1:46:14.559 And I'm like, no, the big problem is like people 1:46:14.760 --> 1:46:18.360 are espousing policies that will cause deaths, and like also 1:46:18.439 --> 1:46:21.360 that people like believe their political enemies are like literally 1:46:21.400 --> 1:46:23.679 agents of Satan, I would say, is like a bigger 1:46:23.720 --> 1:46:27.519 problem than polarization and the abstract. But yeah, I mean 1:46:27.520 --> 1:46:30.880 this this doctrine of sort of spiritual warfare, which if 1:46:30.880 --> 1:46:32.960 you like google it it's just like, oh, this is 1:46:33.000 --> 1:46:35.920 the mindset, and it's like you the listener to it 1:46:36.080 --> 1:46:38.519 could happen here, like you've been drafted into the spirit 1:46:38.600 --> 1:46:39.759 war from like birth. 1:46:40.640 --> 1:46:42.800 Congratulations, private, and. 1:46:42.720 --> 1:46:46.120 You're probably on the side of the devil, so good job. 1:46:46.400 --> 1:46:49.080 I mean, I don't know, like a lot of Americans 1:46:49.080 --> 1:46:52.120 believe in angels and demons, and that's fine, but it's 1:46:52.160 --> 1:46:56.040 like when that starts impinging on the political sphere in 1:46:56.080 --> 1:46:58.200 a very serious way, It's like, how far would you 1:46:58.240 --> 1:47:03.400 go if you believed your opponent was under the thrall 1:47:03.439 --> 1:47:08.280 of like Satan, you would go pretty damn far's. 1:47:07.000 --> 1:47:09.680 I mean, that's why you know clinic bombings were and 1:47:09.800 --> 1:47:11.680 I guess are on the rise again, right, like these 1:47:11.760 --> 1:47:15.479 arsins of clinics. It's not like other kinds of crime 1:47:15.600 --> 1:47:18.519 in my mind, right, it's not a crime of passion 1:47:18.640 --> 1:47:21.880 or an interpersonal dispute. It is people who have been 1:47:22.080 --> 1:47:25.120 motivated by this belief that this is a place where 1:47:25.160 --> 1:47:27.519 a genocide is happening, that there's a holocaust going on 1:47:27.560 --> 1:47:30.439 in there, that people are ripping you know, actual living 1:47:30.479 --> 1:47:32.559 babies limb from limb, and if you really did believe 1:47:32.600 --> 1:47:35.439 that their actions make sense and that's why it happens 1:47:35.479 --> 1:47:37.640 so often, right, because these people are motivated by this 1:47:37.720 --> 1:47:40.759 belief that God commands them to take this action. 1:47:41.680 --> 1:47:44.439 Yeah, I mean there's your dual element to that. I mean, 1:47:44.479 --> 1:47:47.000 first of all, absolutely yes, Like I've read some anti 1:47:47.040 --> 1:47:50.920 abortion terror manuals speaking of extremely unpleasant research, and it's 1:47:51.040 --> 1:47:55.880 just really like these people are murderers. It's mass murderers, 1:47:55.920 --> 1:47:58.120 Like you're like killing Hitler, right. 1:47:58.200 --> 1:48:00.400 And wouldn't you wouldn't you kill baby Hitler? 1:48:00.720 --> 1:48:05.799 Exactly poetical about baby Hitler and like a countrywide scale 1:48:06.000 --> 1:48:10.280 and when specific abortion doctors have been mentioned in right 1:48:10.360 --> 1:48:12.760 wing media, those guys end up dead and that's not 1:48:13.080 --> 1:48:16.360 a coincidence. So there's that element of it, which is 1:48:16.840 --> 1:48:17.640 the majority of it. 1:48:17.640 --> 1:48:18.080 It's huge. 1:48:18.080 --> 1:48:22.160 But there's also this idea of demonic geography, where like 1:48:22.640 --> 1:48:26.080 demons can possess sort of places like abortion clinics or 1:48:26.439 --> 1:48:31.400 institutions like Planned parenthood or even the Democratic Party, which 1:48:31.520 --> 1:48:35.360 you know, I read a lot of demonology books like 1:48:36.160 --> 1:48:40.040 Taxonomies of Demons. Pigs in the Parlor was this really 1:48:40.040 --> 1:48:42.240 big hit in like the seventies, and it's been like 1:48:42.320 --> 1:48:45.120 reissued and reissued and millions of copies and it's just like, 1:48:45.720 --> 1:48:48.519 on one level, it's really compelling because it's like, are 1:48:48.560 --> 1:48:52.800 you tired, are you sad? Are you feeling clumsy? Do 1:48:52.840 --> 1:48:56.320 you have like persistent stomach aches? It's demons and here's 1:48:56.320 --> 1:48:58.759 how you deal with that. And like in a country 1:48:58.800 --> 1:49:02.960 with shitty health care, I can totally see why someone 1:49:03.000 --> 1:49:07.560 who's like really depressed might go to like an exorcist 1:49:07.680 --> 1:49:10.599 or a deliverance minister, which is the Protestant. 1:49:10.160 --> 1:49:12.240 If you'll try anything, and this guy's going to do 1:49:12.280 --> 1:49:13.000 it for free. 1:49:13.439 --> 1:49:17.040 I watch so many videos of deliverance ministers doing their thing, 1:49:17.160 --> 1:49:20.240 and it's like freezy. It's like people you know, are 1:49:20.320 --> 1:49:23.360 just like sitting there and they're like people praying over 1:49:23.360 --> 1:49:26.639 them and screaming in their face, like and they wind 1:49:26.720 --> 1:49:29.679 up vomiting and crying and it's all very like intense. 1:49:29.720 --> 1:49:32.280 And you know, if you think about it from a 1:49:32.280 --> 1:49:35.640 placebo effect perspective for like one second, you're like, obviously 1:49:35.720 --> 1:49:39.320 this person would feel a weightlifted from them. They've had 1:49:39.320 --> 1:49:43.080 this ecstatic experience. And this isn't the majority of it. 1:49:43.600 --> 1:49:46.800 This is about fourteen percent of America identifies this as 1:49:46.840 --> 1:49:50.960 white avengels. So many Protestants, it's still so many people, 1:49:51.240 --> 1:49:53.920 because people keep asking me, like, how many people really 1:49:53.920 --> 1:49:56.920 believe shit like this, and I'm like, well, about eighty 1:49:57.040 --> 1:49:59.479 to ninety percent of like people who identify as white 1:49:59.520 --> 1:50:02.840 evangel Protestants vows most of these beliefs. 1:50:02.880 --> 1:50:05.080 So that's like, that's like thirty million people. 1:50:05.720 --> 1:50:06.000 Yeah. 1:50:06.120 --> 1:50:08.360 Yeah. And then you add in the Catholic. 1:50:08.000 --> 1:50:09.920 Right, which is getting weirder every day. 1:50:10.320 --> 1:50:10.519 Yeah. 1:50:10.640 --> 1:50:16.200 Jd Vance, I hate women exist to reproduce, breathe you 1:50:16.280 --> 1:50:20.000 filthy sow. But like, even beyond the adult Catholic convert 1:50:20.360 --> 1:50:24.360 style weirdness, like right wing Catholics are an integral part 1:50:24.360 --> 1:50:28.360 of the Christian right, like Amy Cony Barrett, you know, 1:50:28.800 --> 1:50:33.360 antonin Scalia, that kind of thing. That's another bunch of millions. 1:50:33.880 --> 1:50:39.439 So this reactionary force has like numerically significant constituency. On 1:50:39.479 --> 1:50:43.439 the other hand, it definitely punches way above its weight 1:50:43.560 --> 1:50:44.519 in terms of right. 1:50:44.560 --> 1:50:48.800 They have an outsized influence of both you know, on 1:50:48.840 --> 1:50:51.679 the legislative floor and when it comes to you know, 1:50:51.880 --> 1:50:53.320 who's racking up the most bodies. 1:50:53.720 --> 1:50:53.960 Yeah. 1:50:54.000 --> 1:50:57.600 And also even like the culture wars right, like the 1:50:58.040 --> 1:51:03.000 sort of loudest culture warriors tend to at least come 1:51:03.040 --> 1:51:06.760 from like a background of I'm speaking for God or 1:51:06.960 --> 1:51:09.000 Christ is king or whatever it is, Like how many 1:51:09.080 --> 1:51:12.360 times have you and I encountered that an extremist contacts 1:51:12.400 --> 1:51:15.200 But also like the sort of more mainstream me. 1:51:16.640 --> 1:51:18.640 What the fuck the mainstream is? I don't know, it's 1:51:18.680 --> 1:51:19.480 full of piss. 1:51:19.680 --> 1:51:22.320 But like the more mainstream me, like Christian grifter, right, 1:51:22.479 --> 1:51:25.320 they come from this. I'm speaking from my faith. These 1:51:25.360 --> 1:51:29.599 are my religious principles. But like it is with noting again, 1:51:29.920 --> 1:51:33.439 just to rewind in our conversation, but like the whole 1:51:33.640 --> 1:51:38.439 concept of religious liberty and religious freedom absolutely was like 1:51:38.560 --> 1:51:43.439 an ad slogan coined in the seventies around segregation, right. 1:51:43.320 --> 1:51:45.960 Religious freedom to do what? I mean, it's like states rights, 1:51:46.000 --> 1:51:47.360 states rights to do what? 1:51:48.000 --> 1:51:48.200 Right? 1:51:48.320 --> 1:51:50.360 Yeah, like you answer the question. 1:51:50.680 --> 1:51:54.519 Yeah, it's religious freedom to have segregated schools, is the 1:51:54.560 --> 1:51:55.160 answer to that. 1:51:55.479 --> 1:51:57.639 And you still see echoes of that with either still 1:51:57.640 --> 1:52:01.479 religious schools that can't accept federal grant money because they 1:52:01.479 --> 1:52:05.360 don't let students be gay, right, Like it's not racial 1:52:05.360 --> 1:52:08.320 segregation anymore, but they are, you know, refusing to admit 1:52:08.439 --> 1:52:11.800 gay students, and that is a violation of federal civil 1:52:11.880 --> 1:52:12.320 rights law. 1:52:12.760 --> 1:52:15.599 Yeah, but that's where I mean that's where that slogan started, 1:52:15.600 --> 1:52:18.240 and then it's blossomed to include basically like a gay 1:52:18.280 --> 1:52:23.080 person came into my shop, except they didn't, right, I know, 1:52:23.120 --> 1:52:25.479 there's no standing, right, Like that whole case was built 1:52:25.560 --> 1:52:26.000 a lie. 1:52:26.240 --> 1:52:26.599 Whatever. 1:52:26.720 --> 1:52:30.799 That's yeah, it's like and the standing in the Supreme 1:52:30.800 --> 1:52:33.759 Court is so ridiculous. This, I mean, in many ways, 1:52:33.800 --> 1:52:36.960 this Supreme Court is the culmination and embodiment and a 1:52:37.000 --> 1:52:40.200 botheosis of like Christian right theocracy, because you have these 1:52:40.240 --> 1:52:43.880 like absolutely bat shit religious zealous I mean Amy Cony 1:52:43.920 --> 1:52:48.080 Barrett is like from a cult, and in this unaccountable body, 1:52:48.120 --> 1:52:52.439 they're passing unpopular theocratic principles that the majority of the 1:52:52.439 --> 1:52:56.640 American public disagrees with. But like specifically what they are 1:52:56.640 --> 1:52:58.840 trying to enact and what they are what they are 1:52:58.920 --> 1:53:03.640 enacting is this theogratic agenda, where like the government is 1:53:03.640 --> 1:53:07.120 in your bedroom, the government is in your doctor's office, 1:53:07.200 --> 1:53:10.920 like the government is sniffing your panties, and it's it's 1:53:11.040 --> 1:53:15.599 gross and it's upsetting and fundamentally like theocracies are just 1:53:16.080 --> 1:53:19.559 very famously all up in your junk, like they're obsessed 1:53:19.600 --> 1:53:23.080 with like controlling and censoring sexuality of all kinds of 1:53:23.160 --> 1:53:27.879 a particularly female sexuality and queer sexuality, like sniff those out. 1:53:28.160 --> 1:53:32.559 And so that's part of the reason why so many 1:53:33.200 --> 1:53:36.559 abortion arguments, Like, first of all, you have the like 1:53:36.600 --> 1:53:40.360 the you're murdering this cluster of cells, which is a 1:53:40.400 --> 1:53:43.320 full human baby. Like do you remember that article in 1:53:43.360 --> 1:53:45.320 The Guardian a couple of years ago that like showed 1:53:45.320 --> 1:53:49.200 the actual size of like fetuses at various stages of development, 1:53:49.240 --> 1:53:52.120 and it was like you were just like so little, 1:53:52.160 --> 1:53:53.720 like these little like little fingernails. 1:53:53.800 --> 1:53:56.120 Yeah, and it doesn't look like a tiny baby doll. 1:53:56.160 --> 1:53:57.240 That's just very small. 1:53:57.680 --> 1:54:00.720 Yeah, exactly, it's not like a mini baby like it 1:54:01.040 --> 1:54:03.759 like tides of gore. It's like literally like a tiny 1:54:03.800 --> 1:54:08.519 cluster of cells. So the anti abortion propaganda, like you 1:54:08.560 --> 1:54:11.160 are not immune to propaganda. It has like wormed its 1:54:11.200 --> 1:54:14.479 way into the popular consciousness just by virtue of its 1:54:14.560 --> 1:54:20.160 ubiquity and constant repetition being the key to successful propaganda. 1:54:20.320 --> 1:54:22.240 But so many of these arguments, in addition to this 1:54:22.400 --> 1:54:26.360 abortion is murder, staff is also just like you should 1:54:26.400 --> 1:54:27.960 have kept your legs closed. 1:54:27.880 --> 1:54:30.439 Right, this is a this is a consequence God did 1:54:30.439 --> 1:54:30.920 this to you. 1:54:31.320 --> 1:54:34.960 Yeah, like sex for your sins immortal sin and sex 1:54:35.000 --> 1:54:36.320 should be punished, and. 1:54:36.440 --> 1:54:37.720 I think must be doing it wrong. 1:54:38.840 --> 1:54:41.320 Like, I'm like, why do you want sex to have 1:54:41.480 --> 1:54:46.720 consequences and be punished? The like intensity of the misogyny 1:54:46.720 --> 1:54:48.480 around purity culture is so intense. 1:55:00.040 --> 1:55:02.360 Ask you, you know, about the experience of writing the book, right, 1:55:02.400 --> 1:55:05.760 So you know, your first book, Culture Warlords, was traumatizing 1:55:05.800 --> 1:55:09.120 for you to craft, right, because you had to spend 1:55:09.200 --> 1:55:12.400 so much time in these digital spaces in some in 1:55:12.400 --> 1:55:16.120 some cases physical spaces with you know, neo Nazis, four 1:55:16.200 --> 1:55:20.919 Chan guys, you know, aspiring terrorists, and so that's traumatic 1:55:20.960 --> 1:55:24.879 to experience, you know, But largely that experience was alone, 1:55:24.920 --> 1:55:27.800 like at your computer screen, sort of consuming this content 1:55:27.840 --> 1:55:30.920 that was eroding your soul. But the second half of 1:55:30.920 --> 1:55:35.200 this book is about child abuse, right, And like you 1:55:35.680 --> 1:55:40.320 interviewed people who grew up in this movement about their lives, 1:55:40.360 --> 1:55:43.240 about their husband's raping them and their parents beating them 1:55:43.240 --> 1:55:50.600 as children, and like how did those experiences compare? And 1:55:50.600 --> 1:55:51.280 like what was that? 1:55:52.000 --> 1:55:52.120 How? 1:55:52.160 --> 1:55:53.600 I mean, how did you prepare to do that? I 1:55:53.640 --> 1:55:56.120 don't know even know how it would begin to do 1:55:56.200 --> 1:55:57.960 that with care. 1:55:58.600 --> 1:56:01.440 I mean, I think my goal going in is like 1:56:01.560 --> 1:56:04.040 I'm not going to betray you. Like that was my 1:56:04.960 --> 1:56:08.880 guiding ethos of just like I view like your trust 1:56:08.880 --> 1:56:12.160 in me as a sacred thing, not like sacred in 1:56:12.200 --> 1:56:15.160 any formal religious sense, but just like you know, I 1:56:15.240 --> 1:56:17.120 view your trust in me as something that I hold 1:56:17.800 --> 1:56:18.720 very dearly. 1:56:19.200 --> 1:56:20.240 It's very important. 1:56:20.400 --> 1:56:23.640 I'm going to treat your pain with as much gentleness 1:56:23.640 --> 1:56:26.360 and respect as I can. And like I interviewed over 1:56:26.360 --> 1:56:31.360 one hundred people, largely about their experiences with experiencing child 1:56:31.400 --> 1:56:34.480 abuse in an evangelical milieu, as is laid out with 1:56:34.640 --> 1:56:39.000 pain steaking instructions, and like all of these parenting manuals. Actually, 1:56:39.040 --> 1:56:41.840 like I think reading the parenting manuals was even more 1:56:41.840 --> 1:56:45.240 disturbing than talking to people, because like people were like 1:56:45.280 --> 1:56:47.160 this fucked me up and it was wrong. And then 1:56:47.200 --> 1:56:50.680 these books are like, no, you must beat your toddler 1:56:51.080 --> 1:56:55.040 because Jesus says so, and like here's exactly how to 1:56:55.080 --> 1:56:57.200 beat your toddler, and here's what you should use to 1:56:57.240 --> 1:57:00.480 beat your toddler, and here's the like supremely fucked up, 1:57:00.520 --> 1:57:04.280 like weird ritual that we prescribe. And then like reading 1:57:04.280 --> 1:57:07.400 those in tandem with like like the accounts of people 1:57:07.400 --> 1:57:10.440 who were like this specific thing like sucked me up 1:57:10.520 --> 1:57:13.000 for life and really messed up my ability to have 1:57:13.080 --> 1:57:16.480 like intimacy or self confidence or whatever all of that stuff. 1:57:16.520 --> 1:57:17.200 I mean, it was tough. 1:57:17.360 --> 1:57:20.040 I definitely took more time. Like I wrote Culture Warlords 1:57:20.040 --> 1:57:24.000 in nine months, so I was like totally immersed constantly. 1:57:24.400 --> 1:57:27.120 It just like didn't come up for ayer, yeah at all. 1:57:27.560 --> 1:57:28.880 And this one I was like, I need a little 1:57:28.880 --> 1:57:32.400 more time, guys, Like I wrote it over you know, 1:57:32.480 --> 1:57:36.960 almost three years. I also pretentiously started calling this philosophy 1:57:37.000 --> 1:57:39.440 Guarding your Heart because I really got lost in the 1:57:39.440 --> 1:57:41.640 sauce with Culture Warlords, Like I was in a dark 1:57:41.760 --> 1:57:45.040 place while I was writing it, and afterwards I was 1:57:45.080 --> 1:57:48.800 also the like it came out in mid COVID, so 1:57:48.840 --> 1:57:51.600 that didn't help either. But uh, it was a really 1:57:51.720 --> 1:57:54.200 really rough experience with this. I was like, I'm going 1:57:54.280 --> 1:57:56.960 to keep writing. I'm gonna write about sandwiches all the 1:57:56.960 --> 1:57:59.400 way through. I'm gonna like make sure I have friendships 1:57:59.440 --> 1:58:04.120 and stuff that's grounding me. And I think consciously having 1:58:04.120 --> 1:58:05.880 that at the forefront of my mind really helped. 1:58:06.600 --> 1:58:06.680 That. 1:58:06.760 --> 1:58:10.280 Being said, like, what was really encouraging was all of 1:58:10.360 --> 1:58:14.680 these people who had experienced this sort of child abuse 1:58:14.720 --> 1:58:19.160 industrial complex in the evangelical community, where like we really 1:58:19.280 --> 1:58:22.840 value that someone wants to hear what we have to say, 1:58:23.160 --> 1:58:25.800 and also that it's someone from outside the community is 1:58:25.840 --> 1:58:29.360 like paying attention and thinks this is important, which is 1:58:29.360 --> 1:58:33.240 not to denigrate like expangelical voices, but more to say that, like, 1:58:33.920 --> 1:58:36.160 I guess there's a certain validation when someone who's like 1:58:36.280 --> 1:58:41.720 not didn't grow up in your corner of religiosity, dark corner. 1:58:41.560 --> 1:58:43.520 And sort of bringing it to an outside audience too. 1:58:43.600 --> 1:58:46.320 I think a lot of expangelicals their audience is largely 1:58:46.360 --> 1:58:48.680 their fellow expangelicals exactly. 1:58:48.760 --> 1:58:50.480 And I'm someone who, like I grew up as a Jew, 1:58:50.480 --> 1:58:53.520 and I'm like, yeah, this sucked. This is terrible. 1:58:54.120 --> 1:58:57.000 I'm like appalled reading like to Train Up a Child 1:58:57.080 --> 1:59:01.560 by The Pearls or The Strong Willed Child by jam Stobson, which, 1:59:01.600 --> 1:59:04.960 like to be clear, the strong willed child is a 1:59:05.000 --> 1:59:05.520 bad thing. 1:59:05.760 --> 1:59:07.600 It's a bad thing to have a child with us. 1:59:07.720 --> 1:59:10.320 You have to beat it out of them, sure, literally, 1:59:10.880 --> 1:59:12.880 And I'm ring into this in the wild recently. I 1:59:12.880 --> 1:59:15.200 don't know if you have come across this guy online. 1:59:15.400 --> 1:59:17.720 Do you know the nineties movie The Little Rascals. 1:59:17.920 --> 1:59:20.840 Oh my god, alf from The Little Rascals turns out 1:59:20.880 --> 1:59:21.720 to be able Salfa. 1:59:21.800 --> 1:59:23.800 The guy who played Alfalfa's name is Bug Hall. 1:59:24.480 --> 1:59:27.920 He like, really like I don't got into a sort 1:59:27.960 --> 1:59:30.920 of main character situation over some posts about how he 1:59:31.080 --> 1:59:35.400 beats his infants. He beats infants because that's I guess, 1:59:35.400 --> 1:59:36.640 a good way to raise a baby. 1:59:37.160 --> 1:59:39.920 Yeah. Also I think he's homeless. 1:59:40.720 --> 1:59:41.600 No, he's a surf. 1:59:42.360 --> 1:59:45.960 Oh he's a voluntary serfdom arrangement. 1:59:47.360 --> 1:59:55.000 Oh my god. Okay, well he sounds like a big rascal. Yeah, 1:59:54.000 --> 1:59:58.600 he's continued that trajectory of Rascal theom But don't be 1:59:58.720 --> 1:59:59.200 your kids. 1:59:59.240 --> 2:00:01.000 I mean, I will also say the. 2:00:00.960 --> 2:00:04.440 Reason why this book focuses so much on child abuse, which, 2:00:05.000 --> 2:00:08.880 like I encountered some haters and losers and doubters along 2:00:08.920 --> 2:00:10.400 the way who were like, why are you focused so 2:00:10.440 --> 2:00:13.440 much on child abuse? And I was like, there are 2:00:13.440 --> 2:00:17.000 a lot of different theories about like how authoritarianism develops, 2:00:17.080 --> 2:00:20.400 but one of the big ones is focusing on the 2:00:20.440 --> 2:00:25.520 pedagogy in authoritarian societies. The societies that become authoritarian, you know, 2:00:26.120 --> 2:00:31.560 evolve from democracy to authoritarianism and beating the shit out 2:00:31.560 --> 2:00:35.760 of people from when they're in infancy, and particularly when 2:00:35.760 --> 2:00:41.960 they display disobedience or ask why, or you know, just 2:00:42.080 --> 2:00:44.440 deviate from expectations. 2:00:44.440 --> 2:00:46.320 It's a great way to make an obedient brown shirt. 2:00:46.680 --> 2:00:50.880 Yeah, exactly, Like this is a recipe for future authoritarians. 2:00:51.040 --> 2:00:53.680 Like the people I spoke to had sort of broken 2:00:53.680 --> 2:00:56.520 away largely from this culture, but many of the sort 2:00:56.520 --> 2:01:00.400 of most obedient soldiers in the armies, Army of God 2:01:00.560 --> 2:01:04.120 like are that way. Because again, I can't overemphasize how 2:01:04.160 --> 2:01:08.800 much these parenting manuals, which spanned from like nineteen seventy 2:01:08.840 --> 2:01:13.520 to twenty fifteen, these texts, you know, the dates that 2:01:13.560 --> 2:01:17.280 they were published, emphasize having an obedient child. What you 2:01:17.320 --> 2:01:19.880 want is not like a child who's kind or curious 2:01:20.040 --> 2:01:25.360 or thoughtful or smart. It's obedient, instantly obedient. Don't make 2:01:25.400 --> 2:01:28.080 me count to three is the title of one of 2:01:28.160 --> 2:01:31.520 the books. And like, what you're creating is a culture 2:01:31.520 --> 2:01:34.360 of people who a like empathize with the aggressor at 2:01:34.360 --> 2:01:38.080 all times. So hence this admiration for strength and even 2:01:38.120 --> 2:01:41.360 admiration for cruelty. People who are trained to obey and 2:01:41.400 --> 2:01:45.320 obey without question, and people who are very acclimated to 2:01:46.240 --> 2:01:47.280 the use of violence. 2:01:47.520 --> 2:01:50.520 I mean, you're doing fascism in the home right. 2:01:50.720 --> 2:01:54.360 So the the author, like Alice Miller, the the author 2:01:54.400 --> 2:01:56.000 of the book For Your Own Good, lays out a 2:01:56.000 --> 2:01:58.280 pretty she was also a Holocaust survivor. She lays out 2:01:58.280 --> 2:02:01.680 a pretty strong case for like, you know, early twentieth 2:02:01.720 --> 2:02:05.720 century Germany having this poisonous pedagogy that also involved beating 2:02:05.760 --> 2:02:07.640 the shit out of your kids until I was like 2:02:07.720 --> 2:02:12.120 illegal to love your children, yeah, to obey you, and 2:02:13.000 --> 2:02:15.280 how basically this is how you make a torture. 2:02:15.800 --> 2:02:16.960 And the book is called for. 2:02:16.880 --> 2:02:21.840 Your Own Good and yeah, I mean I really think 2:02:21.880 --> 2:02:26.680 it is like under valued in politics, Like how much 2:02:26.880 --> 2:02:31.360 this culture of corporal punishment, which is yeah, Americans have 2:02:31.520 --> 2:02:36.240 like moved away from universal approval of corporal punishment, we're 2:02:36.280 --> 2:02:39.400 still like a lot higher than other Western democracies in 2:02:39.400 --> 2:02:42.520 that regard. And like on a national level, we're the 2:02:42.520 --> 2:02:46.400 only country in the world that hasn't ratified the UN 2:02:46.560 --> 2:02:49.080 Conventions on the Rights of a Child, which include like 2:02:49.760 --> 2:02:52.240 having a name and like not being beaten and not 2:02:52.280 --> 2:02:55.440 being thrown into like juvie solitary. 2:02:55.760 --> 2:02:58.920 Oh well, that's why America can't touch that. We need 2:02:58.960 --> 2:02:59.960 to incarcerate the children. 2:03:00.960 --> 2:03:02.839 Yeah, the children yearn for the cells. 2:03:03.520 --> 2:03:06.040 But it's also just like a lot of it actually 2:03:06.560 --> 2:03:10.320 was like worries that like evangelicals like would sort of 2:03:10.360 --> 2:03:13.080 object to the the interference in there. 2:03:13.200 --> 2:03:15.840 It's an infringement on their religious freedom to be the 2:03:15.920 --> 2:03:16.960 shit out of babies. 2:03:17.520 --> 2:03:22.800 Yeah, and their parental rights, which is another buzzword of this. 2:03:21.960 --> 2:03:24.640 This movement pnal rights is a red flag for me. 2:03:25.400 --> 2:03:27.720 Oh yeah, no, I hear parental rights and I think 2:03:27.800 --> 2:03:29.600 you want to beat the shit out of your kids. 2:03:30.000 --> 2:03:31.640 You don't want your children to learn science. 2:03:31.800 --> 2:03:35.760 Yeah, you at a homeschool and under educate your kids 2:03:36.040 --> 2:03:37.240 or miseducate. 2:03:37.720 --> 2:03:41.040 You want to cause a Measle's outbreak exactly. 2:03:41.520 --> 2:03:43.800 But that's like for us because we're weirdos. We're like 2:03:44.200 --> 2:03:48.280 obsessively clued into this stuff. If you're not, Like parental 2:03:48.360 --> 2:03:51.720 rights is like religious freedom is, like it sounds good, Yeah, 2:03:51.720 --> 2:03:55.000 it's an effective marketing slogan, but like what it means 2:03:55.080 --> 2:03:56.560 is like we're going to show up at the school 2:03:56.560 --> 2:03:59.200 board and yell about how I mean. 2:03:59.720 --> 2:04:00.919 And Trump is like bought. 2:04:00.680 --> 2:04:04.440 Into this obviously because he knows where his bread is buttered. 2:04:04.480 --> 2:04:07.919 He has savvy, Like he's like you guys do the policy. 2:04:08.080 --> 2:04:12.000 But like his current parental rights based his biggest like 2:04:12.040 --> 2:04:15.520 policy that he's advocating is like denying federal funding to 2:04:15.560 --> 2:04:18.839 any school with any vaccine a mandate, which is basically 2:04:18.920 --> 2:04:23.680 just like make measles great again, like bring back diphtheria. 2:04:24.520 --> 2:04:26.960 I think, like, yes, the Maga movement, ister of the 2:04:27.360 --> 2:04:31.200 the efflorescence, the apotheosis of this steadily building power, but 2:04:31.280 --> 2:04:35.120 like there's also just like fifty years of power building 2:04:35.160 --> 2:04:37.920 behind it. And like even if Trump was defeated at 2:04:37.920 --> 2:04:40.480 the federal level, which like I profoundly hope he is 2:04:41.040 --> 2:04:43.960 sorry to come out as like a you know, partisan 2:04:44.080 --> 2:04:48.800 a voter, like a hashtag a voter, but like I 2:04:48.840 --> 2:04:53.840 think it would be just a nauseatingly it's a horrifying 2:04:53.920 --> 2:04:56.600 thought that he I mean, first of all, you would 2:04:56.600 --> 2:05:00.960 absolutely enact every item in this theocratic agenda, starting with 2:05:01.040 --> 2:05:03.040 a national abortion band like that would happen in the 2:05:03.080 --> 2:05:07.960 first hundred days, I think, which would just functionally plunge 2:05:08.000 --> 2:05:13.800 American women into like a very very dark septocemic nightmare. 2:05:14.160 --> 2:05:16.240 Yeah, the dark place that we're going as a coffin. 2:05:17.080 --> 2:05:22.160 Yeah yeah, yeah. But even should he lose, which you know, hope. 2:05:22.640 --> 2:05:26.320 There's still twenty two states where abortion is outlawed or 2:05:26.360 --> 2:05:32.560 severely restricted, and these places are becoming care deserts. 2:05:33.000 --> 2:05:34.360 Like medical residents. 2:05:34.960 --> 2:05:38.520 My extremely sexy partner is a medical residen so I 2:05:39.080 --> 2:05:43.080 know more about the state of medicine than I otherwise would. 2:05:43.240 --> 2:05:46.320 But like residents don't want to do their residencies in 2:05:46.400 --> 2:05:47.880 states with abortion restrictions. 2:05:47.920 --> 2:05:49.560 They're like, right, given. 2:05:49.360 --> 2:05:54.920 A choice, gynecological providers just aren't practicing there anymore. Like 2:05:54.960 --> 2:05:58.680 even if you know, even your primary focus is not abortions, 2:05:58.760 --> 2:06:01.360 or even if your primary focus is you know, pregnancy care, 2:06:02.120 --> 2:06:03.240 they just don't want to They just don't want to 2:06:03.240 --> 2:06:03.680 work there. 2:06:04.040 --> 2:06:06.440 Well, also, first of all that, but second of all, 2:06:06.480 --> 2:06:08.120 it's like, if you're in the er, you're going to 2:06:08.160 --> 2:06:11.800 experience pregnancy loss because it happens in one in five pregnancy. 2:06:11.440 --> 2:06:13.480 Right, So they're choosing to work in states where they're 2:06:13.480 --> 2:06:15.280 not going to go to jail for doing medicine. 2:06:15.440 --> 2:06:18.120 Yeah, Like they don't want to incur the moral injury 2:06:18.160 --> 2:06:20.160 of not being able to apply the standard of care 2:06:20.760 --> 2:06:25.000 to patients in extremely common situations such as incomplete miscarriage 2:06:25.120 --> 2:06:29.800 and you know, pregnancy loss, whether you know self induced 2:06:30.320 --> 2:06:34.160 or just like miscarriage is super common and nobody talks 2:06:34.160 --> 2:06:34.760 about it. 2:06:34.760 --> 2:06:37.800 It's more common than we an Ectopic pregnancy is so 2:06:37.920 --> 2:06:39.840 much more common than people realize. Like there are so 2:06:39.880 --> 2:06:41.880 many things that your body can do to betray you 2:06:42.000 --> 2:06:45.320 that you need a doctor's help with just ordinary pregnancy. 2:06:45.480 --> 2:06:47.680 And then after the baby is born, then your lustrous 2:06:47.720 --> 2:06:48.520 hair all falls out. 2:06:48.920 --> 2:06:53.240 Yeah, like ordinary pregnancy is so fraught with like weird 2:06:53.320 --> 2:06:56.600 body horror like, but anyway, that's besides the point. 2:06:56.760 --> 2:06:57.120 Whatever. 2:06:57.240 --> 2:07:00.480 The point is someone presents with abdominal pain and er 2:07:00.960 --> 2:07:02.960 and it turns out to be an a topic pregnancy, 2:07:03.440 --> 2:07:07.879 and like you can't do standard of care like dilation 2:07:08.040 --> 2:07:12.720 and cure tash procedures without checking with the hospital lawyer. 2:07:12.880 --> 2:07:17.120 Like that is a really bad position for a care 2:07:17.160 --> 2:07:19.840 provider to be in. So when you have these fundamentally 2:07:19.960 --> 2:07:24.080 unscientific laws, right that are produced by people who don't 2:07:24.120 --> 2:07:29.480 know anything about pregnancy and are like very intentionally ambiguous 2:07:29.640 --> 2:07:33.840 so that cautious institutions will sort of interpret them at 2:07:34.160 --> 2:07:37.840 maximally interpret them. Like the life of the mother, how 2:07:37.880 --> 2:07:38.880 dead does she have to be? 2:07:39.040 --> 2:07:39.400 First? 2:07:39.680 --> 2:07:42.560 Yeah, she has to be almost dead, right, and then 2:07:42.680 --> 2:07:46.680 sometimes she winds up dying because almost dead is tough 2:07:46.720 --> 2:07:50.440 to judge, Like, it just winds up this grotesque sort 2:07:50.480 --> 2:07:55.080 of farce of medicine and very directly, like residents don't 2:07:55.120 --> 2:07:57.839 want to train, doctors don't want to practice in these places, 2:07:57.880 --> 2:07:58.800 and so, you. 2:07:58.680 --> 2:08:01.720 Know, right, so this ends up killing more people than 2:08:02.040 --> 2:08:04.600 just the ones hemorrhaging in the parking lot. There are 2:08:04.600 --> 2:08:07.640 people who have completely unrelated problems who are now unable 2:08:07.680 --> 2:08:11.000 to access unrelated kinds of care because the doctors just 2:08:11.000 --> 2:08:11.480 aren't there. 2:08:11.760 --> 2:08:15.240 Yeah, Or people who have ordinary wanted pregnancies who can't 2:08:15.280 --> 2:08:17.880 access neonatal care, who have to drive hours and hours 2:08:17.880 --> 2:08:21.280 and hours to like get checkups, like you know, I mean, 2:08:21.520 --> 2:08:25.720 human reproduction is like a pretty major part of like life. 2:08:25.960 --> 2:08:27.600 And a lot of people are doing it. 2:08:28.080 --> 2:08:30.880 Yeah, like it's sort of how you know, it's just 2:08:30.920 --> 2:08:33.600 people do it all the time, and like not being 2:08:33.640 --> 2:08:37.200 able to access medical care around like the entire spectrum 2:08:37.200 --> 2:08:41.200 of like reproduction is pretty catastrophic. But yeah, it also 2:08:41.280 --> 2:08:45.320 impacts all the people not engaging in reproduction at this 2:08:45.400 --> 2:08:48.200 moment in time, like doctors who are just like fuck this, 2:08:48.280 --> 2:08:50.920 I'm not wearing out a dar in Tennessee, you know, 2:08:51.000 --> 2:08:53.240 because I want to be able to treat patients. 2:08:52.920 --> 2:08:54.240 Without a lawyer in the room. 2:08:54.440 --> 2:08:55.640 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 2:08:55.800 --> 2:08:57.640 I mean, and then there are doctors who are bigots 2:08:57.640 --> 2:09:01.560 and doctors who are happily on board with with abortion bands. 2:09:02.040 --> 2:09:03.640 But like, do you want that to be the only 2:09:03.720 --> 2:09:06.360 doctor in your county? I don't think so, you know, 2:09:06.480 --> 2:09:10.400 it's just it's a really grim situation. And I just like, 2:09:10.520 --> 2:09:13.360 I'm such an absolutist about bodily autonomy. It's like, if 2:09:13.400 --> 2:09:16.520 you don't own your body, you are not a full citizen, period, 2:09:16.680 --> 2:09:19.720 end of story. Like if if a major organ in 2:09:19.720 --> 2:09:23.120 your body is treated as a controlled substance, like you 2:09:23.160 --> 2:09:27.080 are not a full and equal citizen with rights, which 2:09:27.080 --> 2:09:27.760 I would like to be. 2:09:28.560 --> 2:09:31.080 I aspire to it. Yeah, So I want to ask 2:09:31.120 --> 2:09:33.200 you one more question about your book and I will 2:09:33.280 --> 2:09:35.120 let you go. I told you that I wouldn't keep 2:09:35.160 --> 2:09:36.440 you very long, and I lied. 2:09:37.920 --> 2:09:41.440 But it's like, it's just because I like talking to you. 2:09:41.480 --> 2:09:45.080 So it's I think I've done the majority of the topics. 2:09:45.120 --> 2:09:45.440 You can't. 2:09:45.560 --> 2:09:49.920 You can't be like, oh, it's about your book, which 2:09:50.200 --> 2:09:53.040 you should buy listeners. 2:09:53.440 --> 2:09:55.320 Pre order it now wherever you buy a books. 2:09:55.600 --> 2:09:57.960 And if you like the delcent tones of my voice, 2:09:58.000 --> 2:10:00.280 which are I shouldn't have had you to I rate 2:10:00.280 --> 2:10:00.960 in my audience books. 2:10:01.000 --> 2:10:02.640 You brush that passage. 2:10:02.760 --> 2:10:04.640 I'm a professional talker now, yeah. 2:10:04.720 --> 2:10:07.720 Yeah, well I narrated the audio book and then was like, 2:10:07.720 --> 2:10:09.720 why did I write such complicated sentences? 2:10:09.800 --> 2:10:10.400 Afterwards? 2:10:11.320 --> 2:10:14.040 So now that I read my own writing like on 2:10:14.080 --> 2:10:16.720 a regular basis out loud, which is new for me. Right, 2:10:16.760 --> 2:10:18.360 so you know, I have my podcast and I'm writing 2:10:18.400 --> 2:10:20.920 my little scripts and then I'm reading into a little microphone. 2:10:21.640 --> 2:10:24.560 Now that I struggle with that. I noticed while I 2:10:24.600 --> 2:10:26.240 was reading your book that oh I wouldn't be able 2:10:26.240 --> 2:10:30.400 to read this out loud. Where would I breathe? I 2:10:30.440 --> 2:10:32.240 know it was because I write like that too, and 2:10:32.280 --> 2:10:34.160 it's something I'm like really grappling with right now. 2:10:34.520 --> 2:10:36.200 She's like call me ten clubs. 2:10:36.680 --> 2:10:39.680 I'm like, ah, fuck, this sentence is this paragraph? This 2:10:39.760 --> 2:10:41.720 sentence is a paragraph. Stop it. 2:10:41.760 --> 2:10:44.400 Like I really really lost, really lost momentum on that one. 2:10:44.480 --> 2:10:47.120 Yeah, I know, but like I managed to get through it. 2:10:47.600 --> 2:10:50.040 And if you if you enjoy the dulcage sounds of 2:10:50.080 --> 2:10:52.200 my voice, you can hear it for like I don't know, 2:10:52.240 --> 2:10:55.800 eight hours or whatever. I as so weird being like 2:10:55.920 --> 2:10:58.880 listen to my voice, but you know, invite me into 2:10:58.880 --> 2:11:02.840 your mind. Yeah, but I do think it's nice as 2:11:02.840 --> 2:11:05.480 an author to read your audiobook because I can like 2:11:05.560 --> 2:11:08.480 get mad and like, you know, emphasize stuff that I 2:11:08.520 --> 2:11:09.400 think is important. 2:11:09.560 --> 2:11:11.440 And also I'm a. 2:11:11.360 --> 2:11:16.000 Theater kid, like, like, I don't have many opportunities to perform, 2:11:16.680 --> 2:11:19.200 and it is a performance and it's it's fun. 2:11:19.400 --> 2:11:21.480 But yeah, and that comes out at the same time 2:11:21.560 --> 2:11:22.720 as the physical book. 2:11:23.320 --> 2:11:27.880 Yes, it comes out audio ebook, physical book with a 2:11:27.920 --> 2:11:28.960 cool snake on it. 2:11:29.400 --> 2:11:31.920 Oh yeah, Oh, I guess this is an audio medium. 2:11:31.920 --> 2:11:34.560 The listener can't see that I'm showing the cool cover. 2:11:35.360 --> 2:11:38.040 Yeah, it's got a cool snake, a red and black 2:11:38.040 --> 2:11:40.520 snake on the cover. I've named him Rocco. He has 2:11:40.560 --> 2:11:43.480 a cross for a tongue. If you're looking for a 2:11:43.520 --> 2:11:46.080 book to give to the metal head in your life, 2:11:46.120 --> 2:11:50.800 oh yeah, it's metal heads, atheists, degenerates. 2:11:52.040 --> 2:11:54.480 Everyone is going to love this book. 2:11:54.480 --> 2:11:55.680 It's perfect for everyone. 2:11:56.240 --> 2:11:59.320 And if you're light on cash flow want it. 2:11:59.360 --> 2:12:02.200 For supporting the authors is ask your library to stock 2:12:02.280 --> 2:12:06.760 it or your local bookstore, because library orders are really 2:12:06.800 --> 2:12:08.760 important and you can just like put in a request 2:12:08.760 --> 2:12:12.839 in your library system and that is super helpful. 2:12:12.880 --> 2:12:15.480 Hell yeah, everybody go to your library's website right now 2:12:15.520 --> 2:12:18.400 and request that they purchase a copy of Wild Faith 2:12:18.480 --> 2:12:22.879 by Talia Lavin. Yeah, tallywhere else can people find you online? 2:12:23.800 --> 2:12:27.600 So I have a newsletter. It's on button down. I 2:12:27.680 --> 2:12:30.440 left Substack because they were like, we're never going to 2:12:30.520 --> 2:12:33.560 censor Nazis, but we will sensor porn. And I was like, 2:12:33.600 --> 2:12:35.600 I don't like your priorities, so I left for button down. 2:12:35.760 --> 2:12:39.160 So it's buttondown dot com. Slash the Sword in the Sandwich, 2:12:39.240 --> 2:12:41.120 or if you just google, the Sword in the Sandwich 2:12:41.240 --> 2:12:44.320 comes up. Most Tuesdays I write about like the horrific 2:12:44.320 --> 2:12:48.880 state of politics, et cetera. And then Fridays I write 2:12:48.880 --> 2:12:52.520 an essay about a different sandwich on Wikipedia's list of 2:12:52.560 --> 2:12:56.360 notable sandwiches, and so far I've written one hundred and 2:12:56.440 --> 2:12:58.560 eleven sandwiches. 2:12:59.080 --> 2:13:02.120 The sandwich content alone is worth the price of admission. 2:13:02.160 --> 2:13:04.160 You need to find out about these sandwiches. 2:13:04.840 --> 2:13:07.520 I mean it just and I get really deep into 2:13:07.560 --> 2:13:11.640 like the history and the provenance and like like ah, 2:13:11.680 --> 2:13:15.440 the shifting of people's led to this sandwich. But so 2:13:15.480 --> 2:13:18.440 I get really deep into it, and then you can 2:13:18.440 --> 2:13:20.760 also find me on Blue Sky, where I most of 2:13:20.800 --> 2:13:23.880 the time now because Twitter is just like robots and 2:13:24.040 --> 2:13:28.160 Nazis and Nazi robots. Where I'm at Swords Jew. I'm 2:13:28.200 --> 2:13:33.400 still on Vishy Twitter as Mobi Dick Energy, and you know, 2:13:33.800 --> 2:13:36.480 if you want to say hi or invite me to 2:13:36.520 --> 2:13:40.400 speak at your synagogue or bookstore, I'm at Tealill even 2:13:40.400 --> 2:13:42.680 writes at gmail dot com. 2:13:42.800 --> 2:13:44.600 Or church if you're like cool. 2:13:44.880 --> 2:13:48.200 Yeah, if it's like a cool church, Yeah, you show 2:13:48.280 --> 2:13:49.960 up and they pass you a snake. 2:13:50.320 --> 2:13:51.200 Yeah, exactly. 2:13:51.720 --> 2:13:54.240 Oh God, I didn't do enough speaking of times for 2:13:54.280 --> 2:13:54.680 this book. 2:13:55.160 --> 2:13:58.800 Well, Telly, thank you so much for coming on today again. 2:13:58.880 --> 2:14:01.600 The book is Wild Faith by Talia Lavin, and you 2:14:01.680 --> 2:14:04.320 can pre order it now wherever books are sold, and 2:14:04.360 --> 2:14:06.480 you should request it from your library. 2:14:07.120 --> 2:14:11.080 Yeah, we stand civic services, and I'm a huge fan 2:14:11.120 --> 2:14:15.120 of public libraries and also of Molly Conger. 2:14:15.240 --> 2:14:19.480 So thanks for having me on and take care, Bye. 2:14:19.640 --> 2:14:44.160 Bye, Welcome back to It Could Happen Here and our 2:14:44.240 --> 2:14:49.320 special two part series Irregular Naval Warfare and You, where 2:14:49.400 --> 2:14:52.919 James and I teach you how you too can challenge 2:14:52.960 --> 2:14:56.360 the US Navy's dominance of the seas, or at least 2:14:56.400 --> 2:15:01.000 the coasts for fun and profit. Actually, today, last episode 2:15:01.040 --> 2:15:04.360 we talked about people challenging the US Navy's coastal dominance. 2:15:04.400 --> 2:15:07.000 Today we're talking about doing the same thing for the 2:15:07.120 --> 2:15:09.960 Russian Navy. So that's gonna be fun. And of course 2:15:10.280 --> 2:15:12.560 the Navy of mianmar which is a bit of a 2:15:12.560 --> 2:15:15.240 different class from the US and Russian Navy, but no 2:15:15.400 --> 2:15:16.160 less interesting. 2:15:17.120 --> 2:15:19.440 Yeah, still fun. I'd love to see a boat lose. 2:15:19.640 --> 2:15:21.680 Yeah, Well, I just like boats going down, you know, 2:15:21.720 --> 2:15:22.480 I just hate a boat. 2:15:22.560 --> 2:15:26.560 Yeah, yeah, US, the jocas many many such cases. 2:15:27.400 --> 2:15:29.360 I'm going to start with Ukraine, and then we're going 2:15:29.400 --> 2:15:31.160 to throw to James to talk about our friends in 2:15:31.240 --> 2:15:35.839 Myanmar and how they have repurposed civilian technology and stolen 2:15:35.880 --> 2:15:40.000 weapons to counter a navy without really having one of 2:15:40.040 --> 2:15:44.160 their own. But first Ukraine. In twenty fourteen, when the 2:15:44.200 --> 2:15:47.640 Russian Army invaded eastern Ukraine and took Crimea, Ukraine lost 2:15:47.680 --> 2:15:51.080 a significant portion of it's already not that impressive navy. 2:15:51.560 --> 2:15:54.360 Most of their boats were just taken by Russia, along 2:15:54.360 --> 2:15:56.840 with a number of sailors who defected, a lot of 2:15:56.880 --> 2:15:59.560 other sailors fled the region, leaving behind their homes and 2:15:59.560 --> 2:16:02.480 cities like Sebastopol to continue serving their country in a 2:16:02.520 --> 2:16:06.240 war that a decade later is still ongoing. One of 2:16:06.240 --> 2:16:08.720 these sailors, who is a Sebastopol native and had to 2:16:08.760 --> 2:16:12.320 flee his home, possibly forever, in order to continue serving 2:16:12.360 --> 2:16:16.800 his country, is the current commander of Ukraine's navy, Admiral Nazpapa. 2:16:17.120 --> 2:16:20.240 He leads a navy that is almost without manned ships, 2:16:20.280 --> 2:16:23.760 and on paper, it is utterly incapable of challenging Russia's 2:16:23.800 --> 2:16:26.879 legendary Black Sea Fleet. Since the age of the Czars, 2:16:26.920 --> 2:16:29.320 the Black Sea Fleet has been infamous as a pillar 2:16:29.360 --> 2:16:33.560 of Russian military power. However, also since the age of 2:16:33.560 --> 2:16:36.200 the Tsars, it's had a nasty tendency to get utterly 2:16:36.240 --> 2:16:38.800 housed by enemies that should have been able to beat. 2:16:38.640 --> 2:16:42.240 It, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, not the first time it's 2:16:42.280 --> 2:16:43.600 taken an unexpected loot. 2:16:43.840 --> 2:16:44.080 Yeah. 2:16:44.320 --> 2:16:46.720 It has a legendary history that doesn't mean good. 2:16:46.760 --> 2:16:52.440 There's bad legends out there, you know. Yeah, it's well known. Yeah, 2:16:52.520 --> 2:16:53.119 today that. 2:16:53.200 --> 2:16:56.760 Enemy is Ukraine. Since the expanded Russian invasion in twenty 2:16:56.800 --> 2:17:00.760 twenty two, just two years, Ukraine has destroyed or badly 2:17:00.840 --> 2:17:03.680 damaged more than a third of the Black Sea fleet, 2:17:03.920 --> 2:17:06.640 despite having no battleships or destroyers in the sea to 2:17:06.680 --> 2:17:09.879 counter Russian naval power, they have done enough damage to 2:17:10.040 --> 2:17:13.200 reopen Odessa and at least one other port on the 2:17:13.200 --> 2:17:16.320 Black Sea to international commerce, which has provided Ukraine with 2:17:16.360 --> 2:17:20.359 a crucial economic and strategic lifeline. And that's a remarkable achievement, 2:17:20.400 --> 2:17:23.439 sinking a third of the Black Sea fleet. And basically 2:17:23.600 --> 2:17:25.400 when you reopen a port, that means that you have 2:17:25.520 --> 2:17:28.480 taken away naval dominance from a country that has a 2:17:28.560 --> 2:17:32.959 navy and you don't. That's pretty good, pretty good stuff. 2:17:34.480 --> 2:17:37.760 Over the last two years, Ukraine had damaged, irreparably or 2:17:37.840 --> 2:17:41.560 sunk seven active landing ships and one to seven active 2:17:41.640 --> 2:17:44.760 landing ships and one landing vessel. I don't know the difference. 2:17:44.840 --> 2:17:47.439 They've fucked up a lot of boats. They have destroyed 2:17:47.440 --> 2:17:50.920 a submarine with seed to ground capability that was docked 2:17:50.920 --> 2:17:53.800 for repairs. They have sunk a cruiser, the capital ship 2:17:53.800 --> 2:17:55.359 of the entire Black Sea fleet. 2:17:55.120 --> 2:17:55.960 The Moskva. 2:17:56.200 --> 2:17:58.560 They've also sunk a supply vessel and a handful of 2:17:58.560 --> 2:18:01.080 patrol boats and missile bow and a number of other 2:18:01.120 --> 2:18:04.359 boats have been damaged. That's a significant rate of casualties, 2:18:04.680 --> 2:18:07.720 especially when you consider that every actually destroyed vessel, we're 2:18:07.760 --> 2:18:11.440 looking at a year's multiple years lead time to replace. 2:18:11.840 --> 2:18:16.480 You cannot make naval vessels very quickly anymore. Back during 2:18:16.720 --> 2:18:20.680 the big dub dub dose, the US did, but nobody 2:18:20.680 --> 2:18:24.920 really does that anymore, not with the big ones at least. 2:18:24.640 --> 2:18:26.280 You just roll through that. 2:18:26.520 --> 2:18:30.000 We were just we were just yeating aircraft carriers into. 2:18:29.800 --> 2:18:33.680 The sea, just just flotting them out. Yeah, don't take 2:18:33.680 --> 2:18:36.920 them out a week. Yeah, it's because it's because Rosy 2:18:36.959 --> 2:18:39.480 de Riveto was really riveting at a high speed. 2:18:39.640 --> 2:18:42.000 She was, she was, she was quite a riveter. So 2:18:42.080 --> 2:18:45.280 at the start of hostilities, Turkey, which controls access to 2:18:45.320 --> 2:18:49.039 the Black Sea forbade any additional military vessels, or at 2:18:49.080 --> 2:18:52.040 least military vessels of significant size, from entering the area. 2:18:52.280 --> 2:18:55.000 What this means this has a significant impact on how 2:18:55.080 --> 2:18:58.560 well Ukraine strikes work, because even if Russia can replace 2:18:58.600 --> 2:19:01.600 the losses physically, they can can't actually get replacements into 2:19:01.600 --> 2:19:04.360 the Black Sea easily. They can't sail new shit past 2:19:04.400 --> 2:19:06.959 the Turks. The Turks are not allowing that right now. 2:19:07.000 --> 2:19:09.959 So again this is a situation that has kind of 2:19:10.000 --> 2:19:13.640 favored the way in which Ukraine has adapted to countering 2:19:13.720 --> 2:19:16.800 Russian naval dominance. It is possible that at the present 2:19:16.879 --> 2:19:19.279 rate of attrition, the Black Sea Fleet could be rendered 2:19:19.320 --> 2:19:22.360 inoperable in less than two years. Like if they keep 2:19:22.360 --> 2:19:24.400 going at this rates, like eighteen months or something before, 2:19:24.400 --> 2:19:27.160 there's not really much of a fleet anymore now. If 2:19:27.280 --> 2:19:30.600 Ukraine had accomplished this task with a traditional navy using 2:19:30.680 --> 2:19:33.959 standard naval tactics, this would have been an impressive victory 2:19:34.160 --> 2:19:36.959 given the disparity in resources between the two nations. But 2:19:37.000 --> 2:19:39.040 they have done all this with a mix of cruise missiles, 2:19:39.080 --> 2:19:42.080 many of which are produced in country, aerial drones, and 2:19:42.160 --> 2:19:47.039 new bespoke locally produced suicide drone boats. This irregular naval 2:19:47.080 --> 2:19:50.160 warfare has been successful enough that one Rand Corporation engineer 2:19:50.160 --> 2:19:53.040 and analyst, Scott Savatz, described the Black Sea Fleet as 2:19:53.080 --> 2:19:56.920 a fleet in being quote, it represents a potential threat 2:19:56.920 --> 2:19:59.200 that needs to be vigilantly guarded against, but one that 2:19:59.240 --> 2:20:01.920 remains in checks for now. And I'm going to quote 2:20:01.959 --> 2:20:04.400 from a New York Times article on the topic. It 2:20:04.480 --> 2:20:08.000 brought a little more context. Ukraine has effectively turned around 2:20:08.000 --> 2:20:10.400 ten thousand square miles in the western Black Sea off 2:20:10.440 --> 2:20:13.359 its southern coast, into what the military calls a gray zone, 2:20:13.480 --> 2:20:15.920 where neither side can sail without the threat of attack. 2:20:16.440 --> 2:20:19.800 James Heapy, Britain's Armed Forces minister, told a recent security 2:20:19.800 --> 2:20:22.400 conference in Warsaw that Russia's Black Sea fleet had suffered 2:20:22.440 --> 2:20:25.720 a functional defeat, and contended that the liberation of Ukraine's 2:20:25.720 --> 2:20:27.720 coastal waters in the Black Sea was every bit as 2:20:27.760 --> 2:20:31.040 important as the successful counter offensives on land and Cersona 2:20:31.040 --> 2:20:34.280 and Kharkiv last year. The classical approach that we studied 2:20:34.280 --> 2:20:37.440 at military maritime academies does not work now, Admiral Nese 2:20:37.480 --> 2:20:39.960 Papas said. Therefore, we have to be as flexible as 2:20:39.959 --> 2:20:42.680 possible and change approaches to planning and implementing work as 2:20:42.760 --> 2:20:45.360 much as possible, not at articles about a year old 2:20:45.400 --> 2:20:46.240 or so. 2:20:46.240 --> 2:20:46.360 So. 2:20:46.600 --> 2:20:49.520 The Neptune anti ship missile is one of the prides 2:20:49.520 --> 2:20:53.200 of Ukraine's Nascon arms industry. Neptune missiles are credited with 2:20:53.280 --> 2:20:56.600 destroying the Moskva in April of twenty twenty two. Ukraine 2:20:56.640 --> 2:20:59.720 also has access to several Western anti ship missiles, including 2:20:59.760 --> 2:21:02.320 these storm Shadow and Scalp missiles. I believe the storm 2:21:02.360 --> 2:21:07.280 Shadow comes from your your folks, right, James, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:21:07.360 --> 2:21:09.520 and these seem to be pretty effective missiles. These obviously 2:21:09.600 --> 2:21:13.000 much more advanced, and these are modern naval weapons, right, 2:21:13.040 --> 2:21:15.400 These are much more advanced than, for example, the weapons 2:21:15.400 --> 2:21:17.000 to who these have. These are the kind of things 2:21:17.040 --> 2:21:21.080 that can counter to some extent modern anti missile technology. 2:21:21.600 --> 2:21:23.600 For an example of kind of how that tends to work, 2:21:23.600 --> 2:21:25.960 they used a barrage of I believe it was mostly 2:21:26.000 --> 2:21:30.040 storm shadows to rain death on the crime import of Sebastopol. Recently, 2:21:30.760 --> 2:21:33.240 seven out of eighteen of the missiles fired made it 2:21:33.280 --> 2:21:36.600 through Russian air defenses, and these damaged or destroyed four 2:21:36.720 --> 2:21:39.160 landing ships in a single strike. And these are sizeable 2:21:39.240 --> 2:21:42.320 naval vessels. This is the most recent attack, although as 2:21:42.360 --> 2:21:44.600 after I wrote this, there was another attack on the 2:21:44.680 --> 2:21:47.520 Kirch Bridge. I'm not really sure how that took place 2:21:47.720 --> 2:21:49.920 yet that seems to have shut it down again. But 2:21:50.000 --> 2:21:51.680 that gives you an idea of like what you actually 2:21:51.760 --> 2:21:53.240 have to do. How much of these missiles you have 2:21:53.280 --> 2:21:54.800 to put in the air to get some through? And 2:21:54.800 --> 2:21:57.400 that's not too bad, right, eighteen missiles seven get through 2:21:57.440 --> 2:22:01.240 four ships down. That's a really good rate of return. 2:22:01.480 --> 2:22:04.000 Especially when you consider that, like you know, we were 2:22:04.000 --> 2:22:06.080 talking in our first episode about how the US is 2:22:06.080 --> 2:22:10.960 spending significant resources on maintaining its defending its carriers, right, 2:22:11.680 --> 2:22:14.480 Russia does not have the same ability to keep good 2:22:14.640 --> 2:22:19.400 lord saying munitions no, and so like that's a finite resource, right, 2:22:19.400 --> 2:22:22.160 they're their means of defining that. Defending their ships and 2:22:22.200 --> 2:22:25.879 defending really anything against missiles are a finite resource. So 2:22:26.480 --> 2:22:30.320 any time you can even if the ship doesn't get sunk, 2:22:30.400 --> 2:22:32.520 if the ship has to deploy one of these missiles, 2:22:32.520 --> 2:22:35.120 which it doesn't, which the whole country doesn't have very 2:22:35.160 --> 2:22:36.320 many of, that they're still a win. 2:22:36.800 --> 2:22:39.920 Now, this is we are talking about irregular naval warfare. 2:22:39.920 --> 2:22:42.119 And then this is not This is not what most 2:22:42.120 --> 2:22:45.680 people would have considered a traditional naval conflict prior to 2:22:45.959 --> 2:22:49.440 the expansion of hostilities in Ukraine. However, we are talking 2:22:49.440 --> 2:22:50.959 this is very different than the case of the Huthies. 2:22:51.080 --> 2:22:53.879 Ukraine is a state. It doesn't have a massive arms industry, 2:22:53.879 --> 2:22:55.760 but it has one, and it has the support of 2:22:55.840 --> 2:22:58.520 nations with sizable arms industries. Right, so we are not 2:22:58.640 --> 2:23:01.480 talking about this. We are going to talk about the 2:23:01.520 --> 2:23:04.320 aspects of Ukrainian a regular naval warfare. That are some 2:23:04.440 --> 2:23:07.520 guys that are hobbyists building shit. Yeah, this is not 2:23:07.600 --> 2:23:10.760 that part yet, but I think this information is kind 2:23:10.760 --> 2:23:13.000 of significant and that it shows the tactical use of 2:23:13.000 --> 2:23:16.240 anti ship cruise missiles and their ability to significantly shape 2:23:16.240 --> 2:23:19.560 an operational environment even when the country using them has 2:23:19.640 --> 2:23:22.840 minimal conventional naval assets of their own. It is largely 2:23:22.879 --> 2:23:24.760 through the use of these missiles that Ukraine has been 2:23:24.800 --> 2:23:27.959 able to reopen their black Sea ports. That matters to 2:23:28.000 --> 2:23:30.880 people seeking to understand both this conflict and the future 2:23:30.920 --> 2:23:33.240 of unconventional naval warfare. I mean, I guess you could 2:23:33.280 --> 2:23:35.760 say this is the future of conventional naval warfare, but 2:23:35.800 --> 2:23:38.720 I think we're still leaning on the unconventional side at 2:23:38.720 --> 2:23:40.959 the moment, at least in terms of how doctrine is 2:23:41.160 --> 2:23:43.279 changing as a result of this. So maybe I should 2:23:43.520 --> 2:23:46.880 update how we're defining this. But for our purposes as 2:23:46.879 --> 2:23:49.959 people unlikely to have access to cruise missiles but significantly 2:23:50.080 --> 2:23:52.920 likely to find ourselves waging an unconventional war than having 2:23:52.959 --> 2:23:55.560 cruise missiles, it's more relevant to look at the new 2:23:55.560 --> 2:23:58.240 weapons systems Ukraine has developed that have helped them lock 2:23:58.280 --> 2:24:01.800 down the Black Sea fleet using civilian hobbyists, And this 2:24:01.840 --> 2:24:06.440 is where we get to drones. Ukraine's conventional aerial drones 2:24:06.480 --> 2:24:09.199 are a mix of actual military hardware. I'm talking about 2:24:09.200 --> 2:24:13.000 stuff like the Bairaktar, the Turkish drone, which is like 2:24:13.200 --> 2:24:15.200 kind of like the Predator A right, it's like an 2:24:15.280 --> 2:24:18.720 actual military product. But the majority in terms of numbers 2:24:18.760 --> 2:24:21.720 of drones that Ukraine is fielding are civilian drones, or 2:24:21.720 --> 2:24:25.080 at least drones that started out a civilian technology. A 2:24:25.120 --> 2:24:27.400 lot of these are now built to be military, but 2:24:27.400 --> 2:24:30.120 they're still based on these designs that started with people 2:24:30.160 --> 2:24:34.240 hacking and cobbling together civilian drones and outside of naval stuff. 2:24:34.360 --> 2:24:36.400 Prior to the war, there had been a lot of 2:24:36.480 --> 2:24:39.320 veterans and hobbyists who were veterans trying to convince the 2:24:39.400 --> 2:24:42.600 Ukrainian military that it needed to adopt drone warfare on 2:24:42.640 --> 2:24:44.680 a large scale, the kind of drone warfare that you 2:24:44.720 --> 2:24:48.480 can do with these less expensive drones, and they received 2:24:48.480 --> 2:24:50.640 a lot of pushback until the war started and these 2:24:50.680 --> 2:24:53.280 guys just took to the field and started fucking murking 2:24:53.360 --> 2:24:57.360 Russian armed units and infantry and killing generals and shit. 2:24:57.840 --> 2:25:00.520 And now Ukraine has integrated in a way that everyone 2:25:00.600 --> 2:25:03.680 is going to follow, like Ukrainian like battalions have like 2:25:03.760 --> 2:25:07.680 companies now that are drone assault companies, and like line battalions, and. 2:25:07.680 --> 2:25:11.879 Within infantry you have people used artillery eating transit forward observers. 2:25:12.160 --> 2:25:13.320 Yes, all over. 2:25:13.400 --> 2:25:15.400 They have set a goal for this year producing at 2:25:15.440 --> 2:25:18.080 least a million and ideally more like two million drones 2:25:18.480 --> 2:25:19.960 and at least from what I read, that looks like 2:25:20.280 --> 2:25:22.480 very plausible. And most of these are quite small, right, 2:25:22.520 --> 2:25:24.480 but that doesn't mean obviously ineffective. 2:25:24.680 --> 2:25:26.080 I know they buy a lot of their drones in 2:25:26.120 --> 2:25:29.520 the UK because the UK has consistently kicked itself in 2:25:29.560 --> 2:25:32.360 the nuts when it comes to like Brexit, and so 2:25:32.720 --> 2:25:35.160 the pound is significantly weaker, and so they're able to 2:25:35.160 --> 2:25:37.000 get the drones at a cheaper price and then drive 2:25:37.040 --> 2:25:39.600 them all the way across. Yeah, you know people who've 2:25:39.640 --> 2:25:41.640 done that. I was going to go join them, but 2:25:41.720 --> 2:25:42.480 never worked it out. 2:25:42.720 --> 2:25:46.520 Yeah, And you know there are a number of different 2:25:46.600 --> 2:25:50.360 like these. These drones earlier in the war had an 2:25:50.440 --> 2:25:53.720 easier time being effective and causing casualties on the Russians 2:25:53.720 --> 2:25:56.560 then later This is something that you know, kind of 2:25:56.560 --> 2:25:59.920 the hooplaw and support, which I think is necessary that Ukraine. 2:26:00.040 --> 2:26:03.000 It's lead some people to discount the degree to which 2:26:03.080 --> 2:26:06.280 Russian forces have adapted and gotten smarter. And one of 2:26:06.320 --> 2:26:08.480 the ways in which they've adapted and gotten smarter is 2:26:08.520 --> 2:26:11.160 in blocking drones and using drones of their own. You know, 2:26:11.200 --> 2:26:12.920 one of the stories the last couple of weeks is 2:26:12.920 --> 2:26:17.040 that Russia has succeeded in carrying out strikes on advanced 2:26:17.040 --> 2:26:21.600 weapons systems like samsites deep in Ukrainian territory. They've extended 2:26:21.600 --> 2:26:24.160 their kill chain beyond what they used to be capable of, 2:26:24.200 --> 2:26:27.640 and that's because they've adapted. They're also adapted with less 2:26:27.720 --> 2:26:31.440 efficacy at blocking drones. In attacks on naval vessels, some 2:26:31.520 --> 2:26:33.000 of this has been kind of funny. I want to 2:26:33.000 --> 2:26:36.199 read a quote from a Business Insider article here. Russia 2:26:36.240 --> 2:26:38.840 is painting silhouettes on naval vessels on land to try 2:26:38.840 --> 2:26:42.080 and trick Ukraine, which keeps destroying its warships. In an 2:26:42.120 --> 2:26:44.880 intelligence update on Wednesday, the UK Ministry of Defense said 2:26:44.879 --> 2:26:47.240 that silhouettes of vessels have also been painted on the 2:26:47.240 --> 2:26:51.160 side of ks, probably to confuse the uncrude aerial vehicle operators. 2:26:51.520 --> 2:26:54.279 They showed there's some images of this. They don't seem 2:26:54.360 --> 2:26:57.760 convincing to me. I don't know if I think this 2:26:57.800 --> 2:26:58.720 is working. 2:26:59.000 --> 2:27:01.879 This is great these I love this, like they have 2:27:01.920 --> 2:27:05.800 a cardboard navy next. Yeah, it's very bugs bunny. Yes, 2:27:05.840 --> 2:27:08.680 they're not working as well as bugs would. They've a 2:27:08.680 --> 2:27:11.360 hole in the side of the cliff face and crushing 2:27:11.440 --> 2:27:15.480 into it, keeps throwing. It's very funny. 2:27:15.480 --> 2:27:18.320 I mean obviously they just Ukraine just sank like or 2:27:18.400 --> 2:27:20.680 damn it badly damaged four boats. So I don't think 2:27:20.720 --> 2:27:23.200 this is I haven't seen evidence that this is working well. 2:27:23.560 --> 2:27:26.440 Their actual like jamming efforts have been much more successful. 2:27:26.520 --> 2:27:29.680 Right, Yeah, they always will be on civilian One of 2:27:29.720 --> 2:27:32.440 the thing that's really interesting compared to Mianma is that 2:27:32.879 --> 2:27:36.280 Ukraine tends to rely on modified off the shelf civilian drones. Right, 2:27:36.360 --> 2:27:40.879 your dji is that kind of thing in Meanma because 2:27:40.959 --> 2:27:43.880 of where a lot of the PDFs are. Because but 2:27:43.959 --> 2:27:46.520 they increasingly do control the borders, but they haven't always. 2:27:47.080 --> 2:27:50.160 They have been making their own drones. The group called 2:27:50.200 --> 2:27:52.560 Federal Wings you can find them on telegram, who make 2:27:52.640 --> 2:27:55.720 their own drones, and I think those seem to be 2:27:56.400 --> 2:28:01.320 less the jammers that the essays that the Tamado has 2:28:01.680 --> 2:28:05.280 uh Chinese made that Jamma rifles you see them all 2:28:05.280 --> 2:28:07.640 the time in captured weapon cashes, but they don't seem 2:28:07.680 --> 2:28:11.200 to be having as much impact on these homemade drones, 2:28:11.200 --> 2:28:12.119 which is really interesting. 2:28:12.959 --> 2:28:15.920 Yeah, yeah, and it's you know, I've mentioned a couple 2:28:16.000 --> 2:28:18.520 of times we're doing this in part because the odds 2:28:18.560 --> 2:28:21.640 that people listening might be involved in an a regular 2:28:21.680 --> 2:28:22.959 conflict are not zero. 2:28:23.560 --> 2:28:23.720 You Know. 2:28:23.760 --> 2:28:26.560 What I think about when I say that is not 2:28:26.640 --> 2:28:29.480 that there's high odds for any individual person fighting themselves 2:28:29.520 --> 2:28:30.920 in that situation. 2:28:30.840 --> 2:28:31.280 But there is. 2:28:31.440 --> 2:28:33.320 Given the number of people who listened to this podcast, 2:28:33.440 --> 2:28:36.439 probably someone who is not currently involved in a conflict 2:28:36.440 --> 2:28:39.080 that will find themselves that way in the future. And 2:28:39.120 --> 2:28:40.600 I base that in part on the fact that all 2:28:40.600 --> 2:28:42.840 of our friends in Myanmar who are currently fighting a 2:28:42.879 --> 2:28:45.920 war were a couple of years ago delivery drivers and 2:28:46.120 --> 2:28:48.760 you know, playing pubg online and not really thinking they 2:28:48.800 --> 2:28:50.119 would wind up as insurgents. 2:28:50.440 --> 2:28:52.200 Now I've spoken to a number of people who are 2:28:52.200 --> 2:28:55.720 currently fighting not in Mianma, who have listened to our 2:28:55.760 --> 2:28:59.560 Meanma podcast and realized the capacity of three D printing, yeah, 2:28:59.640 --> 2:29:02.360 to be very useful and and so like, even in 2:29:02.360 --> 2:29:04.560 that sense, it's already happening. But yeah, don't no one 2:29:04.600 --> 2:29:07.800 in the IMA, Like many of them said that their 2:29:07.959 --> 2:29:12.359 entire combat experience is playing pubg Yeah, now they're lurking ships. 2:29:12.480 --> 2:29:12.720 Yeah. 2:29:12.760 --> 2:29:15.280 So anyway, it bears thinking about this stuff. And this 2:29:15.320 --> 2:29:18.600 brings me back to Ukraine's irregular drone warfare units, which 2:29:18.600 --> 2:29:20.879 again a lot of these guys started out as civilian 2:29:21.040 --> 2:29:24.320 enthusiasts who expanded responded to the outbreak or at least 2:29:24.320 --> 2:29:28.400 expansion of hostilities by expanding their hobby into a real 2:29:28.440 --> 2:29:31.279 world military effort that had a real world effect. Civilian 2:29:31.360 --> 2:29:34.360 drones were crucial in the Battle of Kiev, allowing Ukraine 2:29:34.400 --> 2:29:37.000 to do severe damage to that massive Russian armored column 2:29:37.000 --> 2:29:39.400 heading towards the city and providing intel that led to 2:29:39.400 --> 2:29:42.600 the assassination of multiple general level officers. So it is 2:29:42.640 --> 2:29:45.680 perhaps not surprising that Ukraine looked to the same group 2:29:45.680 --> 2:29:48.120 of volunteer hobbyists when it came time to expand their 2:29:48.200 --> 2:29:51.119 naval arsenal. And there's a really good article I found 2:29:51.160 --> 2:29:55.640 in CNN by Sebastian Shukla, Alex Marcott and Daria Tarasova. 2:29:55.680 --> 2:29:57.680 And I actually want to give you the title of 2:29:57.680 --> 2:29:59.320 this article. Yeah, I'll try to thriller into the show. 2:29:59.360 --> 2:30:02.959 Notes is exclusive rare access to Ukraine's sea drones part 2:30:02.959 --> 2:30:05.560 of Ukraine's fight back in the Black Sea. Haven't really 2:30:05.560 --> 2:30:07.400 seen the word fight back use that way, but there 2:30:07.440 --> 2:30:08.879 you go. So I'm going to read a quote from 2:30:08.879 --> 2:30:13.360 that article. A government linked Ukrainian fundraising organization called United 2:30:13.400 --> 2:30:15.960 twenty four has sourced money from companies and individuals all 2:30:16.000 --> 2:30:18.120 around the world, pooling funds to disperse it to a 2:30:18.160 --> 2:30:21.200 variety of developers and initiatives from defense to soccer matches. 2:30:21.560 --> 2:30:24.360 The entire outfit is very security conscious, insisting on strict 2:30:24.400 --> 2:30:27.480 guidelines on filming and revealing identities. Those who seen and 2:30:27.480 --> 2:30:29.280 met with declined to give their full names or even 2:30:29.320 --> 2:30:32.600 their ranks within Ukraine's armed forces. On a creaky wooden jetty, 2:30:32.600 --> 2:30:34.960 a camouflaged sea drone pilot says he wants to go 2:30:35.040 --> 2:30:37.440 by shark. In front of him is a long, black 2:30:37.480 --> 2:30:41.280 hard show briefcase. He unveils a bespoke multi screened mission control, 2:30:41.560 --> 2:30:44.880 essentially an elaborate gaming center combined complete with levers, joysticks, 2:30:44.879 --> 2:30:47.240 a monitor, and buttons that have covers over switches that 2:30:47.280 --> 2:30:51.359 shouldn't accidentally be knocked with labels like blast. The developer 2:30:51.360 --> 2:30:53.320 of the drone who asked to remain anonymous, said their 2:30:53.320 --> 2:30:55.600 work on sea drones only began once the war started. 2:30:55.800 --> 2:30:57.840 It was very important because we did not have many 2:30:57.879 --> 2:31:00.600 forces to resist the maritime state Russia, and we needed 2:31:00.600 --> 2:31:02.720 to develop something of our own because we didn't have 2:31:02.800 --> 2:31:07.760 the existing capabilities. So again, these are hobbyist design I mean, 2:31:07.800 --> 2:31:10.000 this guy's not really a hobbyist any more, but that's 2:31:10.040 --> 2:31:12.600 how he started. He's only not a hobbyist because the 2:31:12.600 --> 2:31:15.240 military recognized the value of what he was doing. And 2:31:15.320 --> 2:31:18.200 the current iterations of this sea drone weigh a little 2:31:18.200 --> 2:31:21.640 over two thousand pounds with an explosive six hundred and 2:31:21.640 --> 2:31:24.760 sixty one pound payload, a five hundred mile range and 2:31:24.800 --> 2:31:27.000 a max speed of fifty miles per hour. That is 2:31:27.560 --> 2:31:31.480 a significant weapons system. Yeah, multiple sea drones have been 2:31:31.520 --> 2:31:33.480 used to strike Russian assets in the Black Sea, and 2:31:33.560 --> 2:31:37.000 drones were involved in a successful attack that severely damaged 2:31:37.000 --> 2:31:41.160 the Kirch Bridge last July, rendering it impassable since until September. 2:31:41.520 --> 2:31:43.600 So these have had a real battlefield effect and they 2:31:43.640 --> 2:31:46.480 probably will continue to do so. The developer of these 2:31:46.560 --> 2:31:49.680 drones told CNN these drones are a completely Ukrainian production. 2:31:49.760 --> 2:31:52.039 They are designed drawn and tested here. It's our own 2:31:52.040 --> 2:31:55.040 production of holes, electronics and software. More than fifty percent 2:31:55.080 --> 2:31:57.920 of the production of equipment is here in Ukraine. And 2:31:57.920 --> 2:32:01.160 that's really significant because you know, I think we're all 2:32:01.200 --> 2:32:04.600 aware of the difficulty Ukraine has had getting weaponry lately 2:32:04.760 --> 2:32:07.720 from the West as a result of fucking around in Congress, 2:32:08.120 --> 2:32:10.640 and so it is a necessity for them to be 2:32:10.680 --> 2:32:13.880 able to develop weapon systems like this that can interdict 2:32:13.879 --> 2:32:16.680 and counteract more advanced and expensive weapon systems and can 2:32:16.840 --> 2:32:19.720 be produced indigenously. You know, I don't think we have 2:32:19.800 --> 2:32:24.120 seen a mass suicide boat attack. I'm interested in what 2:32:24.240 --> 2:32:27.760 happens when we do, like with more significant numbers than 2:32:27.760 --> 2:32:31.320 we've seen deployed. I kind of wonder the degree to 2:32:31.320 --> 2:32:33.280 which the Russians have gotten good at spotting this stuff. 2:32:33.320 --> 2:32:35.160 I've come across at least a couple of stories of 2:32:35.200 --> 2:32:38.119 these boats likely destroyed on approach. So they certainly don't 2:32:38.120 --> 2:32:40.600 always work even a majority of the time. But given 2:32:40.640 --> 2:32:42.200 the cost of these things they don't have to get 2:32:42.240 --> 2:32:44.760 through the majority of the time, very much worth it 2:32:44.879 --> 2:32:49.080 right now. In that interview with The New York Times, 2:32:49.120 --> 2:32:53.160 Admiral Najpapa caution that Ukraine is still outgunned in the 2:32:53.200 --> 2:32:56.519 Black Sea. Even though the Russians no longer have supremacy, 2:32:56.760 --> 2:32:59.800 they still have air superiority. They are still able to 2:33:00.040 --> 2:33:03.400 lunch from the sea long range missiles at Ukrainian targets, 2:33:03.440 --> 2:33:07.560 including civilian targets. So this is not again a situation 2:33:07.640 --> 2:33:10.160 that should be portrayed as them having their own way. 2:33:10.760 --> 2:33:12.880 Their ability to kind of interdict the sea has been 2:33:13.160 --> 2:33:15.760 The primary effects of it have been number one, the 2:33:15.840 --> 2:33:18.120 reopening of trade in the Black Sea, and earlier in 2:33:18.160 --> 2:33:21.240 the war, by locking down the ability of these landing 2:33:21.280 --> 2:33:23.360 ships to put more troops on ground and by doing 2:33:23.440 --> 2:33:26.119 damage to the Kurch Bridge, they were able to slow 2:33:26.320 --> 2:33:30.320 Russian reinforcements in Russian materiel from entering the war zone 2:33:30.400 --> 2:33:33.160 in order to this aided in some of the advances, 2:33:33.200 --> 2:33:37.040 particularly in areas like Carson. At this moment, the situation 2:33:37.120 --> 2:33:40.160 has changed because again the Russians aren't just kind of 2:33:40.200 --> 2:33:42.800 like sitting around doing the same thing over again, or 2:33:42.800 --> 2:33:45.520 at least not always. And we don't tend to talk 2:33:45.560 --> 2:33:47.800 as much about successes on the Russian side of things, 2:33:47.800 --> 2:33:49.920 but that is an important part of the story and 2:33:50.040 --> 2:33:51.800 one of the things the Russians have done is kind 2:33:51.800 --> 2:33:54.520 of acknowledged that the Black Sea Fleet may not be 2:33:54.760 --> 2:33:58.800 a fleet in being forever and certainly cannot be relied 2:33:58.879 --> 2:34:01.760 upon to handle everything they initially thought it would handle. 2:34:02.120 --> 2:34:04.760 And so Russian engineers spent a significant period of time 2:34:04.800 --> 2:34:08.360 building a sizeable new railroad that connects Rostov and southern 2:34:08.440 --> 2:34:12.280 Russia to Mariopol and occupied southern Ukraine. This has allowed 2:34:12.280 --> 2:34:15.440 them to get high volume shipments into the area and 2:34:15.520 --> 2:34:20.560 supply troops to the area along Ukraine's southern front without 2:34:20.640 --> 2:34:23.680 relying on that bridge or relying on naval landings. 2:34:23.760 --> 2:34:23.960 Right. 2:34:24.760 --> 2:34:26.840 So, the fact that Ukraine has been able to take 2:34:26.840 --> 2:34:29.640 out for landing ships recently is good. That's a wind 2:34:29.720 --> 2:34:32.840 for Ukraine. It reduces Russian capability, but it is not 2:34:32.959 --> 2:34:34.720 half the same effect that it would have had, for example, 2:34:34.760 --> 2:34:38.920 two years earlier. Right, Yeah, because Russia has also evolved, 2:34:38.959 --> 2:34:41.760 and among other things, railroads are a lot easier or 2:34:41.800 --> 2:34:44.360 a lot harder to destroy to take out. 2:34:44.440 --> 2:34:44.600 Right. 2:34:44.600 --> 2:34:46.879 It's easy to damage a railroad, but they're easy to fix. 2:34:46.920 --> 2:34:49.360 It doesn't take a lot to get some guys over 2:34:49.440 --> 2:34:52.119 to fix a damage sunk of railroad, fixing a bridge 2:34:52.120 --> 2:34:54.240 that's been blown up, or a sunk boat is a 2:34:54.320 --> 2:34:54.920 lot harder. 2:34:55.280 --> 2:34:58.119 Yeah, absolutely, I mean, and there are people within Russia 2:34:58.200 --> 2:35:01.960 even who are sabotaging railways say it's like it's very 2:35:02.040 --> 2:35:04.720 high stakes for them, and it's relatively low cost for 2:35:05.160 --> 2:35:08.640 the Russian state to fix that stuff, so like it's 2:35:08.640 --> 2:35:09.520 not as effective. 2:35:10.000 --> 2:35:11.880 Yeah, but I think this gives you an idea of 2:35:11.959 --> 2:35:14.280 kind of like what we're looking at when we look 2:35:14.320 --> 2:35:17.959 at this kind of ongoing A regular conflict is the 2:35:18.040 --> 2:35:21.040 side that does not have access to a functional navy, 2:35:21.280 --> 2:35:24.360 not able to interdict or destroy fleets, but able to 2:35:24.400 --> 2:35:26.720 stop them from dominating the coast. And when you can 2:35:26.720 --> 2:35:29.440 stop them from dominating the coast, you have effectively denied 2:35:29.520 --> 2:35:33.279 them terrain that they can act in without being countered, 2:35:33.720 --> 2:35:36.440 and you have also denied them from stopping you from 2:35:36.520 --> 2:35:38.640 acting in that same terrain, even if you don't have 2:35:38.720 --> 2:35:42.480 total safety in that area. That opens up the operational 2:35:42.520 --> 2:35:47.240 possibilities substantially. And this is something that I kind of 2:35:47.280 --> 2:35:49.320 don't think is going to get put back in the bag. 2:35:49.400 --> 2:35:52.520 Even if some of these Star Wars ass weapons systems 2:35:52.560 --> 2:35:54.920 do come out in the near future, you know, maybe 2:35:54.920 --> 2:35:58.360 that'll have an impact in the immediate term on people 2:35:58.400 --> 2:36:00.400 like the houthies. But I don't think think that it 2:36:00.440 --> 2:36:06.679 really will on you know, for example, what Ukraine's doing right, Yes, Russia. 2:36:06.360 --> 2:36:09.560 Can't keep up with getting decent small arms, body armor, 2:36:09.680 --> 2:36:12.280 grenades and ship legs. There's no way it's going to 2:36:12.280 --> 2:36:15.840 implement some kind of massive star Wars system over its navy. 2:36:15.879 --> 2:36:17.520 Not right now, not in the middle of a conflict. 2:36:17.560 --> 2:36:19.200 That's it's struggling to supply. 2:36:20.080 --> 2:36:22.320 Yep, you know what, here's an ad break. 2:36:33.160 --> 2:36:36.480 All right, we're back and we are traveling around the world. 2:36:36.600 --> 2:36:39.760 Spend your little globe in your head and look for Meanma, 2:36:40.000 --> 2:36:44.080 which is of course in Asia. Now I'm talking about 2:36:44.080 --> 2:36:48.800 two different I guess anti ship sabotage or attack or 2:36:49.120 --> 2:36:51.199 two different ways ships have been sunk in the EMMA. 2:36:51.480 --> 2:36:54.320 I'll start with the first one, which is undoubtedly the flashiest, 2:36:55.040 --> 2:36:59.520 just because it's fun. So a ship in the port 2:36:59.640 --> 2:37:02.199 of Yeah, about about a month ago, so we're recording 2:37:02.200 --> 2:37:05.320 on a twenty. It's about the first of March. It 2:37:05.360 --> 2:37:07.600 was in the river, in the river in yangon right, 2:37:07.640 --> 2:37:10.920 and it was carrying allegedly carrying jet fuel. Now, if 2:37:10.959 --> 2:37:15.600 you follow Burmese activists, people in the Burmese Freedom Movement, 2:37:15.920 --> 2:37:18.120 they will. One of their demands for a long time 2:37:18.200 --> 2:37:21.400 has been to stop supplying the Hunter with jet fuel, 2:37:21.440 --> 2:37:27.160 which would in turn stop it being able to bomb villages, schools, civilians, 2:37:27.480 --> 2:37:31.080 PDF formations, just about anyone in the country. It's bombed 2:37:31.080 --> 2:37:33.760 at some point in the last couple of years. And 2:37:34.080 --> 2:37:36.120 they haven't been exactly right. They haven't been able to 2:37:36.120 --> 2:37:39.199 stop the supply of jet fuel coming to the Hunter. 2:37:39.640 --> 2:37:41.480 So they've taken it into their own hands. And what 2:37:41.520 --> 2:37:44.320 they did on the first of March was that they 2:37:44.920 --> 2:37:49.040 snuck onto a boat. So two this is the story 2:37:49.080 --> 2:37:52.959 from the Burmese National Unity Government's Ministry of Defense. Anyway, 2:37:53.800 --> 2:37:58.560 combat divers snuck onto this boat planted a kilogram of 2:37:58.600 --> 2:38:01.680 TNT or a charge equivalent to kilogram of TNT. Robert 2:38:01.680 --> 2:38:04.400 and I've both spoken to people who make explosives in memrs. 2:38:04.480 --> 2:38:04.640 We do. 2:38:04.680 --> 2:38:07.039 We definitely know the PDF has access to a range 2:38:07.040 --> 2:38:10.000 of explosives. They said it on a five hour fuse 2:38:10.400 --> 2:38:12.160 and it blew up in the middle of the night, 2:38:12.560 --> 2:38:15.360 and there's definitely footage of the ship on fire having 2:38:15.440 --> 2:38:19.039 blown up. Now, this is pretty remarkable for never real 2:38:19.200 --> 2:38:22.800 like this is like why the United States has units 2:38:22.840 --> 2:38:25.960 like the Navy seals right, like the higher speed guys, 2:38:26.840 --> 2:38:31.920 because it is not easy to scuba dive across a harbor, 2:38:32.360 --> 2:38:36.000 climb onto a ship, send an explosive charge without being detected, 2:38:36.280 --> 2:38:38.240 and then leave that ship and have the charge go 2:38:38.320 --> 2:38:41.280 off and sink the ship without you being compromised, without 2:38:41.280 --> 2:38:45.760 the charge itself being like compromised, and the ship being saved. Right, 2:38:45.800 --> 2:38:49.760 this is some like this is some classic like this 2:38:49.879 --> 2:38:52.360 is why they are a special units within the US military. 2:38:52.840 --> 2:38:53.080 Now. 2:38:54.080 --> 2:38:56.840 The PDF very obviously did not have combat dives. Two 2:38:56.879 --> 2:39:00.520 years ago, I was looking into hobby scuba diving in Yangon. 2:39:01.120 --> 2:39:04.680 The rivers in that area are extremely muddy and visibility 2:39:04.760 --> 2:39:08.680 is very low, So the people who you find diving 2:39:08.720 --> 2:39:11.040 in that area are not so much like hobby scuba 2:39:11.080 --> 2:39:15.680 divers or free divers. But there's salvage divers and there's 2:39:15.680 --> 2:39:19.080 a whole little industry of people. And these people are 2:39:19.080 --> 2:39:24.080 diving in equipment that I would not consider safe or reliable. 2:39:24.560 --> 2:39:27.880 It's clamping an air hose in between your teeth and 2:39:27.959 --> 2:39:30.840 diving down and trying to find there's a large deposit 2:39:30.879 --> 2:39:33.280 of coal in one of the rivers in Yangon because 2:39:33.280 --> 2:39:35.720 of a ship that's sunk. There was a coarse copper 2:39:35.920 --> 2:39:39.360 which everyone all around the world, including the bigcong in Santia, 2:39:39.360 --> 2:39:42.879 are stealing copper. There's iron, right, So these people are 2:39:42.879 --> 2:39:46.280 diving down and trying to collect scrap and sell that 2:39:46.400 --> 2:39:48.640 for whatever minimal amount they can. 2:39:48.760 --> 2:39:48.840 Right. 2:39:48.879 --> 2:39:55.440 It's an extremely dangerous and extremely low income. It's one 2:39:55.480 --> 2:39:58.240 of the sort of really high risk, low reward jobs 2:39:58.240 --> 2:40:00.720 that you get in economies where people are struggling to 2:40:00.720 --> 2:40:04.720 make ends meet. Right, So those are the only divers 2:40:04.760 --> 2:40:07.280 I can find evidence of in Yangon. I don't think 2:40:07.320 --> 2:40:09.400 it was them who did this, because you have to 2:40:09.400 --> 2:40:11.119 have a boat above you with a pump if you're 2:40:11.160 --> 2:40:13.440 diving with a rubber hose in your teeth, right, So 2:40:14.080 --> 2:40:19.320 it seems like somebody in within the They said it 2:40:19.360 --> 2:40:21.520 was a Yangon PDF, that's what they attribute it to, 2:40:21.680 --> 2:40:25.080 so that would be one of these. It would likely 2:40:25.080 --> 2:40:28.000 be an underground group within the PDF, right, some people 2:40:28.080 --> 2:40:30.800 living in the city who were able to sneak onto 2:40:30.800 --> 2:40:32.640 this boat, set a charge and blow it up, and 2:40:32.680 --> 2:40:34.880 they would also had to have intelligence at the boat 2:40:35.520 --> 2:40:38.560 where it was, what it was carrying, et cetera. It's 2:40:38.560 --> 2:40:42.560 a pretty pretty daring mission that this is the first 2:40:42.560 --> 2:40:44.879 one like this we've seen and we haven't seen anything since. 2:40:44.959 --> 2:40:48.160 But it's of course possible that this is a story 2:40:48.200 --> 2:40:50.760 that we're being told. In fact, they had like someone 2:40:50.800 --> 2:40:53.720 undercover on the ship, right or like they had some 2:40:53.840 --> 2:40:56.480 other means of getting this charge onto the ship, but 2:40:57.360 --> 2:40:59.160 one way or another they managed to blow up this 2:40:59.240 --> 2:41:03.240 ship carrying few, which is a significant detrimu Yeah, right, 2:41:03.879 --> 2:41:05.520 that's how they get most of their shit. It's not 2:41:05.560 --> 2:41:08.400 over land, especially with more the. 2:41:08.440 --> 2:41:12.519 Terrain there is just absolutely, like even with modern technology, 2:41:12.560 --> 2:41:14.520 difficult to get significant amounts of shit through. 2:41:14.959 --> 2:41:18.640 They're resupplying some of their outposts that are ten miles 2:41:18.640 --> 2:41:21.440 from a town with helicopters right now, like a the 2:41:21.560 --> 2:41:28.280 terrain is burly, and b they don't have the PDF 2:41:28.320 --> 2:41:31.000 has denied them access that any time they send out 2:41:31.040 --> 2:41:34.520 a convoy, it gets attacked, so sending out plus you 2:41:34.560 --> 2:41:37.760 know that their land border crossings are increasingly falling into 2:41:37.760 --> 2:41:41.520 the hands of the PDFs and the ROS, So getting 2:41:41.520 --> 2:41:43.039 stuff through the ocean is one of the ways that 2:41:43.040 --> 2:41:45.680 they can still get stuff. And if this keeps happening, 2:41:45.720 --> 2:41:48.120 then they will make that more expensive for them. And 2:41:48.240 --> 2:41:51.720 they're not exactly a wealthy hunter even though, I guess 2:41:51.879 --> 2:41:54.920 Minna Lung just made himself an air Force one recently. 2:41:55.000 --> 2:41:57.040 I was just looking at it. Today's good. He's got 2:41:57.080 --> 2:42:01.240 himself too luxury. Yeah, they called it dictators like he's 2:42:01.320 --> 2:42:05.480 upgraded from president class. Nice. Yeah, yeah, yes, he has 2:42:06.920 --> 2:42:09.920 in many ways. So yeah, that's one way that the 2:42:09.920 --> 2:42:12.400 PDF has been blowing up ships in the Yangon, Robert, 2:42:12.480 --> 2:42:15.439 do you know who else has been blowing up ships 2:42:15.600 --> 2:42:16.720 in the yang in Yangon? 2:42:17.440 --> 2:42:22.640 Well, we are sponsored entirely by the British Navy circa 2:42:22.680 --> 2:42:27.280 the mid eighteen hundreds, so I would guess them, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:42:27.360 --> 2:42:31.039 yeah yeah. Lots of repressed, repressed feelings and growing up 2:42:31.440 --> 2:42:35.960 a lot of cabin boys with deep trauma. Anyway, here's 2:42:36.000 --> 2:42:36.400 the ass. 2:42:36.840 --> 2:42:49.880 Yeah, all right, we beca We hope you enjoyed that. 2:42:49.879 --> 2:42:52.320 That pivot one of our best ones yet. And we're 2:42:52.320 --> 2:42:56.560 talking about the Arakan Army now. So the Arakan Army 2:42:57.480 --> 2:43:00.000 not to be confused with the Rakhan Range of Salvation Army, 2:43:00.040 --> 2:43:02.920 different group. Arakan is a name of what is now 2:43:02.920 --> 2:43:05.680 a Rakaine state before it was colonized by the Burmese. 2:43:06.000 --> 2:43:08.080 That was I think Arakan was a king before it 2:43:08.120 --> 2:43:10.320 was colonized by the Burmese, so that that's where that 2:43:10.360 --> 2:43:14.680 refers to. It's a geographical appellation rather than like necessarily 2:43:14.720 --> 2:43:17.640 an ethnic one. The Rakaine would be the ethnic group. 2:43:18.120 --> 2:43:21.119 So what the AA have done is sunk I think 2:43:21.440 --> 2:43:25.360 at least four Hunter ships now, and most of these 2:43:25.360 --> 2:43:28.440 ships are kind of they're like the They look like 2:43:28.480 --> 2:43:32.160 big Higgins boats. They're like landing craft or like car ferries, 2:43:32.200 --> 2:43:35.560 like flat bottom with a bow that goes down. Right. 2:43:35.879 --> 2:43:37.640 I rode around a lot in the Marshall Islands in 2:43:38.000 --> 2:43:39.920 little landing craft like that because they can get them in. 2:43:39.959 --> 2:43:42.160 They don't have like docks, so they can just ride 2:43:42.160 --> 2:43:43.520 that right up to the beach and then drop the 2:43:43.560 --> 2:43:46.480 front and off you go. And they use them a lot. 2:43:46.720 --> 2:43:49.560 The Hunter doesn't have like per se marines that they 2:43:49.600 --> 2:43:53.320 don't have maritime infantry, but they use them to transport 2:43:53.320 --> 2:43:56.200 their regular army around, right, and they use them to 2:43:56.200 --> 2:43:58.920 transport them up river. They also use them a lot 2:43:58.959 --> 2:44:04.440 in Rakaine State to shell AA positions and any townships 2:44:04.440 --> 2:44:06.200 that they've decided they want to wipe off the map 2:44:06.320 --> 2:44:08.680 and kill all the people in right. So these these 2:44:08.720 --> 2:44:11.600 boats have been a real like thorn in the side 2:44:11.600 --> 2:44:15.119 of the Aracan Army after Operation ten twenty seven, when 2:44:15.400 --> 2:44:18.400 they joined with two other groups to form the Three 2:44:18.400 --> 2:44:21.520 Brotherhood Alliance, A launch attacks on the Hunter all over VMA, 2:44:22.520 --> 2:44:25.320 and so what they've been doing, it appears, is using 2:44:26.120 --> 2:44:30.640 underwater mines to sink these ships, which is interesting, right, Like, 2:44:30.800 --> 2:44:36.720 I guess the mines are like a very old technology, right, 2:44:36.959 --> 2:44:40.440 it's probably one hundred years plus underwater mines have existed. 2:44:41.000 --> 2:44:44.280 It seems the way that, like, the reason they're able 2:44:44.360 --> 2:44:46.960 to get away with using what is the relatively dated 2:44:47.000 --> 2:44:51.119 technology is because the Hunter doesn't expect to encounter anything, right, 2:44:51.160 --> 2:44:54.039 and so has not equipped its ships as such, Like 2:44:54.240 --> 2:44:56.520 they do have stuff like submarines, but that's not what's 2:44:56.520 --> 2:44:58.400 getting sunk. What's getting sun to these big kind of 2:44:58.480 --> 2:45:01.879 landing craft riverboats. And it seems that they're using mines 2:45:02.080 --> 2:45:04.800 and then once they disabled the ship, they're then attacking 2:45:04.840 --> 2:45:08.600 it with small boats, small arms like indirect fire mortars 2:45:08.600 --> 2:45:12.000 and stuff. I saw one post that suggested they'd use 2:45:12.040 --> 2:45:14.840 which is pretty cool if they did. The Burmese military 2:45:14.920 --> 2:45:19.880 has these like tank destroyers. It's a tank, it's what 2:45:19.879 --> 2:45:22.400 it is. And they've captured the AA has captured a 2:45:22.480 --> 2:45:24.880 number of these, right, And I've seen suggestions that they're 2:45:24.959 --> 2:45:27.600 using some of these on like they just set up 2:45:27.600 --> 2:45:29.560 an ambush along the banks of the river, right and 2:45:29.640 --> 2:45:31.720 as the ship comes in they can they can maybe 2:45:31.720 --> 2:45:33.600 disable it with a mine and then attack it with those. 2:45:33.920 --> 2:45:36.920 But there are videos online you can find them of 2:45:37.320 --> 2:45:39.880 the AA sinking these ships, and then they've done some 2:45:39.920 --> 2:45:43.480 amazing drone photography of like they obviously they then like 2:45:43.920 --> 2:45:46.879 staged their units on the ships, like all saluting the 2:45:46.959 --> 2:45:49.200 drone and they had the Arakan Army flags and they're 2:45:49.200 --> 2:45:53.600 actually really cool photos of them taking these ships. But again, 2:45:53.680 --> 2:45:56.360 like I think this might be the first sinking of 2:45:56.640 --> 2:46:02.840 a Burmese naval ship since since independence from Britain. Like, 2:46:03.360 --> 2:46:05.280 I can't think that they were. They really haven't played 2:46:05.360 --> 2:46:07.800 much of a role at all in its conflicts with 2:46:07.879 --> 2:46:11.800 the Eros, aside as from like basically kind of just 2:46:11.879 --> 2:46:15.040 shelling places when they want to do that. But there's 2:46:15.080 --> 2:46:17.400 never really been any significant opposition to them, and that's 2:46:17.480 --> 2:46:20.840 changed now they have to obviously, just like everywhere else, 2:46:20.840 --> 2:46:22.959 watch out for drones, right, drones have been used to 2:46:23.000 --> 2:46:28.000 a massive extent in Myanmar, and like the AA doesn't 2:46:28.000 --> 2:46:30.720 have as many like associated PDFs. I haven't seen them 2:46:30.840 --> 2:46:34.200 doing as much of the drone stuff as the PDFs. 2:46:34.360 --> 2:46:37.879 The pdf tend to be like the more urban folks, right, 2:46:37.879 --> 2:46:41.119 the younger folks and the gen Z folks that we've 2:46:41.120 --> 2:46:43.600 spoken about before, and a lot of them have been 2:46:43.800 --> 2:46:45.840 very savvy with their use of drones. Like I said, 2:46:45.879 --> 2:46:47.880 you can look up Federal Wings and you can see 2:46:47.920 --> 2:46:51.000 them dropping bombs with drones on all kinds of stuff 2:46:51.440 --> 2:46:54.560 with their heavy metal soundtracks that they like. But that 2:46:55.600 --> 2:46:57.920 it wasn't even drone here. It's pretty simple. It was 2:46:57.959 --> 2:47:01.640 just mine so things they love, mines and mead mines 2:47:01.640 --> 2:47:05.199 all over that country. But in this case, these I guess, 2:47:05.200 --> 2:47:07.880 massive what mines in the rivers. Given that the Hunter 2:47:08.080 --> 2:47:11.560 is the only only entity sending big boats up and down, 2:47:12.040 --> 2:47:13.480 you could set them at a certain depth where these 2:47:13.480 --> 2:47:15.960 small boats wouldn't hit them, and eventually one of the 2:47:16.080 --> 2:47:17.800 Hunter boats is going to hit them, I guess. And 2:47:18.080 --> 2:47:21.560 so it's pretty basic technology, but it's still a massive 2:47:21.560 --> 2:47:24.280 step forward in terms of like a place where the 2:47:24.360 --> 2:47:28.560 state had complete impunity, it now doesn't. Right, they can't 2:47:28.600 --> 2:47:31.080 just cruise up and down these rivers shelling people. They 2:47:31.080 --> 2:47:33.800 were actually using some of the ships to evacuate soldiers 2:47:33.800 --> 2:47:36.560 and their families from a position. The soldiers they were 2:47:36.600 --> 2:47:38.720 trying to like, rather than surrendering, they were trying to 2:47:38.760 --> 2:47:42.480 evacuate them and move them to somewhere else. The AA 2:47:42.520 --> 2:47:43.920 asked them to surrender, and they didn't. They tried to 2:47:43.959 --> 2:47:46.600 evacuate them, so then they mined the ships and took 2:47:46.640 --> 2:47:50.840 those out. I think the hunters like tried to spin 2:47:50.879 --> 2:47:54.360 this as like the AA is attacking civilians, but I 2:47:54.360 --> 2:47:57.520 think a Burmese Navy ship with a Burmese Navy flag, 2:47:57.879 --> 2:47:59.640 when those ships have just been shelling you, seems like 2:47:59.680 --> 2:48:01.560 a legit fro the target. To me, I think it's 2:48:01.640 --> 2:48:04.640 very hard. It's you know, it's a hunter, but children 2:48:04.800 --> 2:48:07.640 on one of their naval ships rather than the AA 2:48:07.680 --> 2:48:10.360 who attacked the ship because it had children. You can 2:48:10.400 --> 2:48:12.400 hear in one of the things you can hear the 2:48:12.480 --> 2:48:14.920 AA are like attacking the ship in small boats and 2:48:14.920 --> 2:48:17.120 they're shouting like there are children on board, and you 2:48:17.120 --> 2:48:19.240 can hear them acknowledging it. And there are videos of 2:48:19.280 --> 2:48:23.959 the AA rescuing people who jumped overboard, rescuing them from 2:48:24.040 --> 2:48:26.240 the river, and then like, I guess they've just held 2:48:26.280 --> 2:48:32.400 us POWs cool. Yeah, it's cool, it's interesting. Obviously, not 2:48:32.440 --> 2:48:37.240 many of us have access to underwater minds, but you know, 2:48:37.560 --> 2:48:40.320 maybe in a fictional future we might. Yeah. 2:48:40.440 --> 2:48:45.359 Well, there you go, folks. This has been irregular naval warfare. 2:48:45.400 --> 2:48:50.840 And you a podcast about a regular naval warfare, and you. 2:48:51.760 --> 2:48:54.360 Yeah, send us to your videos of yourselves in a 2:48:54.400 --> 2:48:55.160 regular naval war. 2:48:55.280 --> 2:48:55.440 Yeah. 2:48:55.440 --> 2:48:56.440 Absolutely, go out there. 2:48:56.520 --> 2:48:59.959 Look how about this, Every listener, go out and sing 2:49:00.240 --> 2:49:04.120 one naval vessel, you know, doesn't matter who's. 2:49:03.600 --> 2:49:04.480 Just any boat. 2:49:04.520 --> 2:49:07.960 Any go sink a boat, any boat, take out, superyot, 2:49:08.600 --> 2:49:11.879 knock it out. You see a dinghy, take that fucker out, 2:49:12.000 --> 2:49:14.440 people kayaking, fuck them up, you know. 2:49:14.760 --> 2:49:15.320 On a boat? 2:49:15.959 --> 2:49:19.119 Absolutely, a banana boat for sure. One of those weird 2:49:19.280 --> 2:49:21.600 duck boat car things that they have in some city. 2:49:21.640 --> 2:49:24.280 Oh yeah, actually, you know what, you don't need to 2:49:24.280 --> 2:49:26.760 do anything with that that'll kill everybody on board on it. 2:49:27.160 --> 2:49:30.680 Those things are traps. Just pray for those. 2:49:31.360 --> 2:49:31.880 Yeah. 2:49:32.160 --> 2:49:34.480 Any other boat. Yeah, you see a doughnut, you know, 2:49:34.600 --> 2:49:36.439 behind being behind a speedboat? 2:49:36.640 --> 2:50:00.119 Oh yeah, murk it anyway, everybody go away. 2:50:01.640 --> 2:50:03.800 Welcome to dick it app and here a podcast about 2:50:03.800 --> 2:50:06.400 things falling apart and putting it back together again. I'm 2:50:06.400 --> 2:50:11.720 Mia Wong, I'm with Garrison, and it is my singular 2:50:11.760 --> 2:50:14.920 honor and pleasure to introduce our guest, doctor Julia Serrano. 2:50:15.000 --> 2:50:18.959 She is the author of many books including Excluded, Making 2:50:19.000 --> 2:50:22.640 Feminist and core movements more inclusive, Sex Stop, How Society 2:50:22.680 --> 2:50:25.959 Sexualizes Us, and How We Can Fight Back, Outspoken, A 2:50:26.000 --> 2:50:30.520 Decade of Transgender Activism and Transfeminism, and most famously, Whipping Girl, 2:50:30.560 --> 2:50:32.720 a new edition of which is coming out in March. 2:50:32.920 --> 2:50:34.400 Doctor Serrano, welcome to the show. 2:50:36.040 --> 2:50:37.040 Hi, thanks for having me. 2:50:38.200 --> 2:50:40.720 I'm really really I'm really happy you can join us. 2:50:41.400 --> 2:50:47.040 So okay. Whipping Girl, I think is really one of 2:50:47.120 --> 2:50:50.320 the one of quietly the most influential books of the 2:50:50.320 --> 2:50:52.840 twenty first century, to the extent that in kind of 2:50:52.879 --> 2:50:55.800 classic trans woman fashion. I don't think I don't think 2:50:55.840 --> 2:50:58.959 people realize that the ideas that it introduced have an origin. 2:50:59.760 --> 2:51:01.760 So so for people who haven't read the book, and 2:51:01.800 --> 2:51:04.280 you should, this book is great. I guarantee you have 2:51:04.360 --> 2:51:08.080 seen its influence. If you've ever heard someone like who's 2:51:08.120 --> 2:51:11.480 not trans referred to as sis like, that's that's from 2:51:11.520 --> 2:51:15.800 this book. The concept of misgendering is also from this book. 2:51:16.200 --> 2:51:21.320 The word trans misogyny like also from this book, and 2:51:21.680 --> 2:51:26.039 this I think gets at something from the twenty fifteen 2:51:26.080 --> 2:51:30.160 second edition preface that you wrote, which is something I've 2:51:30.200 --> 2:51:32.400 been wondering about, is what is it like to sort 2:51:32.400 --> 2:51:35.280 of experience writing a book and have it just like 2:51:35.480 --> 2:51:37.040 ripple across society like this. 2:51:38.200 --> 2:51:38.960 Yeah, it's uh. 2:51:40.200 --> 2:51:42.400 I was very much hoping, and you know, as I 2:51:42.440 --> 2:51:44.360 was writing it, I was hoping that I thought that 2:51:44.440 --> 2:51:47.720 it would resonate with a lot of trans female and 2:51:47.760 --> 2:51:51.680 trans feminine people, and I hope trans communities more generally, 2:51:52.280 --> 2:51:54.520 and the book. This is something that a lot of 2:51:54.520 --> 2:51:56.800 times people who pick up the book now and like 2:51:56.879 --> 2:52:00.440 the twenty twenties don't necessarily realize, is that he was 2:52:00.480 --> 2:52:05.520 reading anything about trans people outside of feminists and LGBTQ 2:52:06.000 --> 2:52:10.280 plus communities, and so I was basically just speaking to 2:52:10.360 --> 2:52:13.240 those groups, and I thought it would resonate with some people. 2:52:13.320 --> 2:52:16.400 But yeah, definitely it kind of went out into the 2:52:16.400 --> 2:52:19.360 world and did a bunch of stuff that I wasn't 2:52:19.840 --> 2:52:23.520 necessarily expecting. And I'm very glad that the book has 2:52:24.000 --> 2:52:27.039 kind of touched a lot of people's lives and changed, 2:52:27.560 --> 2:52:33.000 you know, kind of societal understanding and quote unquote discourses 2:52:33.080 --> 2:52:34.000 about trans people. 2:52:34.080 --> 2:52:38.480 So yeah, it must be kind of bizarre, like being 2:52:38.520 --> 2:52:42.039 twenty years ago writing about you know, caniche term like 2:52:42.200 --> 2:52:46.200 cis and now the richest man in the world thinks 2:52:46.240 --> 2:52:48.320 it's like the most evil word. 2:52:50.400 --> 2:52:53.840 Yeah, it's quite bizarre, and I do want to definitely 2:52:53.920 --> 2:52:55.360 kind of clear this up, but I kind of make 2:52:55.400 --> 2:52:57.520 this clear in the preface. So I didn't in vet 2:52:58.040 --> 2:53:01.359 like sis versus trans like a that's like a prefix 2:53:01.400 --> 2:53:05.160 that has existed a long time, and I've since seen 2:53:05.240 --> 2:53:08.840 other people like point out, oh, this person was using 2:53:08.920 --> 2:53:14.280 it in nineteen ninety something, or some German writer like 2:53:14.400 --> 2:53:18.320 coined cis vestism or something like back a million years ago. 2:53:18.760 --> 2:53:20.600 So what I will say is that when I when 2:53:20.600 --> 2:53:23.160 I put out the book, I was inspired by Emi Koyama, 2:53:23.200 --> 2:53:28.439 who was and is an awesome activist, intersex activist who's 2:53:28.440 --> 2:53:32.440 written a lot of really influential trans related essays over 2:53:32.480 --> 2:53:36.360 the years. And it was from her blog post that 2:53:36.480 --> 2:53:38.320 was the first time I saw sis and trans and 2:53:38.879 --> 2:53:41.680 the idea of cis sexism. And at the time, it 2:53:41.720 --> 2:53:43.879 was while I was writing the book, and it really 2:53:44.640 --> 2:53:46.280 I was like, oh my god, this is kind of 2:53:46.320 --> 2:53:48.800 the overall idea I was talking about all these different 2:53:48.879 --> 2:53:52.800 facets of basically double standards between trans and non trans people, 2:53:53.400 --> 2:53:56.039 and so I kind of grabbed on to it, and 2:53:56.080 --> 2:53:59.200 I was really worried about it actually because nobody, almost 2:53:59.200 --> 2:54:01.640 nobody was using those terms. It was very niche at 2:54:01.640 --> 2:54:05.320 the time, and so the book popularized that language. And 2:54:05.360 --> 2:54:07.800 so now it is kind of funny every once in 2:54:07.840 --> 2:54:13.879 a while seeing yes, over reactions by SIS people to 2:54:13.920 --> 2:54:18.640 the idea of SIS being a slur or whatever. So yeah, 2:54:18.840 --> 2:54:22.080 and so yeah, so that's definitely something that is kind 2:54:22.120 --> 2:54:24.560 of is the one thing I one thing I did 2:54:24.600 --> 2:54:27.119 coin in the book that has kind of also taken 2:54:27.120 --> 2:54:29.680 a life on its own is trans misogyny. So that 2:54:29.800 --> 2:54:33.600 is something that kind of originated with this book and 2:54:33.720 --> 2:54:36.560 particularly a chap book that I wrote in two thousand 2:54:36.560 --> 2:54:39.320 and five that some of those essays became chapters of 2:54:39.440 --> 2:54:41.720 the book. And yeah, and so there are other ideas 2:54:41.760 --> 2:54:44.040 that kind of are out there, Like I think it 2:54:44.080 --> 2:54:45.920 was one of the first. I think it was the 2:54:45.959 --> 2:54:48.120 first book to talk about like the idea of SIS 2:54:48.160 --> 2:54:52.160 privilege misgendering is an idea was out there, but I 2:54:52.240 --> 2:54:56.000 kind of dove into it a little bit deeper. So yeah, 2:54:56.040 --> 2:54:57.720 So there are definitely things I was doing at the 2:54:57.720 --> 2:55:02.360 time that I didn't know whether be to abstract or 2:55:02.360 --> 2:55:04.680 how they'd be taken up, And so yes, it's been 2:55:04.800 --> 2:55:05.439 very interesting. 2:55:06.600 --> 2:55:09.480 Yeah, I wanted to talk about misgendering a bit because 2:55:09.480 --> 2:55:12.040 I think it's become this word that just means not 2:55:12.160 --> 2:55:16.400 saying someone's pronouns correctly, and I think that's, at the 2:55:16.560 --> 2:55:21.720 very best, like an incredibly reductionist and simplified version of 2:55:21.720 --> 2:55:23.600 the analysis that you were presenting. So I guess I 2:55:23.600 --> 2:55:26.959 have two questions here. One, can you briefly sort of 2:55:27.000 --> 2:55:29.480 talk about what you were trying to get at when 2:55:29.520 --> 2:55:33.160 you sort of did your analysis of the process of gendering, 2:55:33.360 --> 2:55:35.920 and too, what do you think about the way that 2:55:35.959 --> 2:55:39.640 it's kind of become flattened into this I don't know, 2:55:39.840 --> 2:55:43.400 kind of weirdly narrow thing in modern discourse. 2:55:44.240 --> 2:55:49.119 Sure, and a lot of the miss gendering definitely dovetails 2:55:49.160 --> 2:55:51.920 with the idea of passing, and a lot of my 2:55:52.240 --> 2:55:54.480 kind of diving into it in a particular way came 2:55:54.520 --> 2:55:57.680 from critiques that I had and other trans people had 2:55:58.160 --> 2:56:00.920 as well, but I kind of, you know, put them 2:56:00.959 --> 2:56:04.840 together in a particularly in the dismantling I think it's 2:56:04.920 --> 2:56:08.160 dismantling Sexual Privileged chapter where I kind of go through 2:56:08.200 --> 2:56:11.560 all these steps that lead to miss gendering, because I 2:56:11.640 --> 2:56:14.680 think people talk about trans people passing and also the 2:56:14.720 --> 2:56:17.879 people will talk about other marginalized groups passing is whatever 2:56:18.000 --> 2:56:22.880 dominant majority group. The term obviously had long been used 2:56:23.200 --> 2:56:26.920 with regards to people of color passing is white and 2:56:27.120 --> 2:56:31.400 in kind of white racist, you know, us and other societies. 2:56:31.440 --> 2:56:34.560 So it's an old term, and a big problem with 2:56:34.640 --> 2:56:36.760 it is that it makes it sound like we're doing 2:56:36.840 --> 2:56:41.199 something active, that trans people are actively trying to deceive 2:56:41.280 --> 2:56:44.960 other people, with huge scare quotes around the word deceive. 2:56:45.920 --> 2:56:49.640 And I really wanted to highlight to people that actually 2:56:50.280 --> 2:56:55.440 all of us very unconsciously and very compulsively gender every 2:56:55.480 --> 2:56:58.280 single person we meet, or at least that's how we're 2:56:58.320 --> 2:56:59.160 socialized to be. 2:56:59.720 --> 2:57:01.480 And you know, you can work towards. 2:57:01.280 --> 2:57:06.119 Getting you know, overcoming that, but I wanted to really 2:57:06.200 --> 2:57:09.640 highlight the fact that we see people, we automatically gender them, 2:57:09.879 --> 2:57:14.840 and that puts people who do not quite who your 2:57:14.879 --> 2:57:18.800 presumptions are wrong about. It puts us in difficult situations. 2:57:19.160 --> 2:57:23.039 It's a double bind, where do you reveal what you 2:57:23.120 --> 2:57:26.959 supposedly really are, or do you just allow people to 2:57:27.040 --> 2:57:30.360 read you that way? And it works out very differently, 2:57:30.400 --> 2:57:34.640 for instance, between trans and say CIS gay people, because 2:57:34.640 --> 2:57:38.000 when cis gay people talk about passing is straight, their 2:57:38.120 --> 2:57:40.520 passing is something that they know that they are not, 2:57:41.560 --> 2:57:43.800 whereas for a lot of trans people, people read me 2:57:43.800 --> 2:57:46.480 as a woman and I understand myself. 2:57:46.120 --> 2:57:46.840 To be a woman. 2:57:47.360 --> 2:57:50.600 There's it's a very different dynamic because it's not like 2:57:50.680 --> 2:57:54.600 I'm not hiding anything, but people are presuming what I'm 2:57:54.640 --> 2:57:57.320 really passing as is I'm passing a CIS gender and 2:57:57.440 --> 2:58:02.240 people are assuming I'm sis gender when the trans is 2:58:02.240 --> 2:58:05.360 the thing that I might need to or feel like 2:58:05.560 --> 2:58:08.080 I need to clear up or other people might put 2:58:08.120 --> 2:58:13.120 pressure on me to either tell them that I'm trans 2:58:13.520 --> 2:58:17.280 or be accused of deceiving them. So that's a little 2:58:17.280 --> 2:58:20.360 bit of kind of how I was approaching it when 2:58:20.400 --> 2:58:23.280 I started working on that idea and really stressing the 2:58:23.320 --> 2:58:27.080 idea of you can't understand miss gendering unless you understand 2:58:27.480 --> 2:58:30.400 that we make assumptions all the time, We gender people 2:58:30.720 --> 2:58:35.119 very actively, and you know, so trans people are often 2:58:35.360 --> 2:58:39.280 just reacting to that and dealing with that double bind. 2:58:40.840 --> 2:58:43.200 Yeah, and this is something that I think is interestingly 2:58:43.200 --> 2:58:49.120 discussed in the book about like kind of this this 2:58:49.320 --> 2:58:52.720 issue with some of the sort of prevailing gender theories 2:58:52.760 --> 2:58:56.800 which thought of which think about sort of like femininity 2:58:56.800 --> 2:59:01.119 and gender is pure performance. But and this is I think, 2:59:01.200 --> 2:59:02.680 like the argument that you were making that I think 2:59:02.760 --> 2:59:05.760 is really interesting is that something that I think is 2:59:05.760 --> 2:59:09.760 is very obvious to trans people is that so much 2:59:09.760 --> 2:59:12.440 of gender is how people perceive you and how you 2:59:12.480 --> 2:59:14.440 know and stuff that like you don't have any control over. 2:59:14.520 --> 2:59:17.640 It's how people sort of gender you. It's how people 2:59:17.840 --> 2:59:21.640 like construct a gender around you in ways that you 2:59:21.680 --> 2:59:23.360 don't really have control over. 2:59:25.280 --> 2:59:29.520 Yeah, and that was a big thing. So in kind 2:59:29.560 --> 2:59:32.640 of I was writing the book in the mid two thousands, 2:59:33.240 --> 2:59:38.400 and so the nineteen nineties is when Judith Butler publishes 2:59:38.480 --> 2:59:42.600 Gender Trouble, which Butler never said all genders performance are 2:59:42.640 --> 2:59:45.720 all genders drag, Yeah, but that is, but that those 2:59:45.720 --> 2:59:49.040 are like slogans or soundbites that other people took from 2:59:49.080 --> 2:59:52.200 their book, right, and they were very popular at the time. 2:59:52.680 --> 2:59:58.160 There's also there's a famous sociological article about doing gender, 2:59:58.560 --> 3:00:01.920 and so people were very focused on the way in 3:00:01.959 --> 3:00:08.440 which we create gender by doing it particular ways, and 3:00:09.120 --> 3:00:12.480 a lot of the slogans within trans communities were sort 3:00:12.520 --> 3:00:15.240 of like, oh, well, you know, I just have to 3:00:15.240 --> 3:00:18.720 do my gender differently, like more transgressively, and that will 3:00:19.120 --> 3:00:21.560 like tear down all of gender. And I felt that 3:00:21.600 --> 3:00:24.400 there was you know, that is an aspect of things, 3:00:24.440 --> 3:00:28.160 and most of us, whether trans or cists, most of 3:00:28.240 --> 3:00:32.039 us have had the experience of maybe trying. 3:00:32.760 --> 3:00:34.680 To perform our genders in a particular way in. 3:00:34.760 --> 3:00:38.520 Order to like, you know, not you know, in order 3:00:38.640 --> 3:00:41.280 in order to get by in the world, in order 3:00:41.360 --> 3:00:43.680 to not be harassed by other people. 3:00:44.520 --> 3:00:45.880 So we've all had that experience. 3:00:46.240 --> 3:00:50.119 So while that's true, there's the other partner of that dance, 3:00:50.160 --> 3:00:54.920 and that's perception, and we're all perceiving people very actively, 3:00:55.120 --> 3:00:58.480 and we're like projecting our ideas and meanings onto them. 3:00:58.840 --> 3:01:00.880 And I felt like that was being under discussed at 3:01:00.920 --> 3:01:04.320 the time, and that was not only a huge part 3:01:04.440 --> 3:01:08.760 of Whipping Girl, but that's become a part of a 3:01:08.760 --> 3:01:11.440 lot of my other books, like including my most recent book, 3:01:11.480 --> 3:01:14.440 sext Up, How Society sexualizes us and. 3:01:14.400 --> 3:01:15.360 How we can fight back. 3:01:16.720 --> 3:01:19.680 One way that I would describe that book is it's 3:01:19.920 --> 3:01:24.160 talking about sex and sexuality, not from what people do, 3:01:24.280 --> 3:01:28.240 but from how we perceive and interpret sex and sexuality, 3:01:28.240 --> 3:01:32.240 because there are a lot of unconscious ideas, often really 3:01:32.560 --> 3:01:36.520 horrible ideas, really hierarchical ideas that are kind of built 3:01:36.520 --> 3:01:39.320 into the way we view the world. And interrogating that 3:01:39.720 --> 3:01:41.600 and so, yeah, that was a very big part of 3:01:42.000 --> 3:01:42.959 both Whippen Girl. 3:01:42.840 --> 3:01:44.400 And then my writings since then. 3:01:46.320 --> 3:01:48.240 Yeah, and I think I think that is something where 3:01:48.320 --> 3:01:50.920 things have gotten better in terms of in terms of 3:01:50.920 --> 3:01:53.840 how we think about gender, which I don't know, like 3:01:54.040 --> 3:01:58.680 things aren't perfect, but it definitely it definitely improved things 3:01:58.720 --> 3:01:59.439 a lot. 3:02:00.080 --> 3:02:01.840 Agreed, we're going. 3:02:01.800 --> 3:02:03.760 To take an ad break and when we come back, 3:02:03.840 --> 3:02:07.800 we're talking trans misogyny. 3:02:16.959 --> 3:02:18.360 We're back. Yeah. 3:02:18.400 --> 3:02:20.840 So then other thing I wanted to sort of talk 3:02:20.879 --> 3:02:25.240 about was I think, in like exactly the opposite process 3:02:25.240 --> 3:02:29.600 that happened to misgendering, trans misogyny has become a lot 3:02:29.640 --> 3:02:35.199 more expansive than your original sort of kind of narrow 3:02:36.080 --> 3:02:38.560 conception of it. And I think this has been changing 3:02:38.560 --> 3:02:42.000 a lot, especially in the last about half decade or so. 3:02:42.000 --> 3:02:44.800 So I was wondering what you think about the way 3:02:44.800 --> 3:02:46.760 that this concept has kind of taken on a life 3:02:46.800 --> 3:02:48.720 of its own. In recent years and what it's been 3:02:49.680 --> 3:02:50.440 doing since. 3:02:51.400 --> 3:02:55.520 Yeah, So I feel like trans misogyny that there are 3:02:55.520 --> 3:03:00.400 a lot of different dialogues and discourses about it coming 3:03:00.560 --> 3:03:04.360 like people coming from different perspectives with it, and some 3:03:04.400 --> 3:03:08.360 people feeling like the world is doing things that I 3:03:08.480 --> 3:03:10.560 never suggested it was doing. 3:03:11.240 --> 3:03:13.519 It's kind of hard to know like where to actually. 3:03:13.160 --> 3:03:16.600 Come in on this, but for me, when I was 3:03:16.640 --> 3:03:20.360 first writing about it, I was first just noticing that 3:03:20.520 --> 3:03:23.000 a lot of the quote unquote transphobia that I was 3:03:23.040 --> 3:03:26.000 facing when people know as a trans woman was actually 3:03:26.520 --> 3:03:28.760 a lot of it was just misogyny, and a lot 3:03:28.840 --> 3:03:33.840 of it targeted like kind of my femininity rather than 3:03:35.160 --> 3:03:39.600 my transness, And so I wanted to write about that, 3:03:40.160 --> 3:03:42.600 and kind of the way that I framed it in 3:03:43.840 --> 3:03:47.039 the book was, which I think is a really useful 3:03:47.200 --> 3:03:50.039 kind of model for thinking about it, is that there 3:03:50.120 --> 3:03:52.960 most of the types of sexism that feminists have described 3:03:53.320 --> 3:03:56.199 over the many years fall into two sort of camps, 3:03:56.640 --> 3:04:01.040 one of them being oppositional sexism, which is the idea 3:04:01.120 --> 3:04:04.440 that men and women are kind of perfectly opposite, mutually 3:04:04.480 --> 3:04:09.440 exclusive sexes that have different interests and attributes and desires, 3:04:10.000 --> 3:04:12.520 and so a lot of transphobia and homophobia are kind 3:04:12.560 --> 3:04:15.360 of like built into this idea that men and women 3:04:15.400 --> 3:04:16.480 are completely distinct. 3:04:17.400 --> 3:04:19.279 And then the other one is traditional. 3:04:18.959 --> 3:04:23.039 Sexism, which is the idea that femalists and femininity are 3:04:23.160 --> 3:04:25.320 less legitimate than malness and masculinity. 3:04:26.360 --> 3:04:30.800 And a lot of CIS feminists have kind of. 3:04:31.080 --> 3:04:33.879 Viewed all of that as just sexism, right, But when 3:04:33.920 --> 3:04:36.480 you break it down like that, it makes it clear 3:04:36.520 --> 3:04:38.440 that the double bind that a lot of feminists have 3:04:38.480 --> 3:04:42.280 talked about is actually kind of these two different forms 3:04:42.320 --> 3:04:47.840 of sexism. So if a CIS woman acts appropriately femininely, 3:04:48.000 --> 3:04:51.920 so appropriate with scare quotes. If a SIS woman acts femininely, 3:04:52.240 --> 3:04:57.000 she'll be seen as appropriate, but she'll be dismissed because 3:04:57.040 --> 3:05:00.760 femininity is dismissed in our culture, so that's the way 3:05:00.760 --> 3:05:03.960 that she'll be delegitimized. Whereas if she acts in ways 3:05:04.320 --> 3:05:06.680 that are coded as masculine, and if she acts assertive 3:05:06.800 --> 3:05:12.280 or aggressive, then people will malign her for being kind 3:05:12.320 --> 3:05:16.240 of a barrant or deviant. Right, And so oppositional sexism 3:05:16.560 --> 3:05:20.040 helps keep traditional sexism in place because you can say 3:05:20.080 --> 3:05:24.119 that maln is a masculinity or superior but that only 3:05:24.160 --> 3:05:26.920 works if you can also make a clear distinction between 3:05:27.560 --> 3:05:30.000 you know, those people and people are female and. 3:05:29.920 --> 3:05:32.720 Feminine, and so I think this plays out differently. 3:05:34.120 --> 3:05:36.440 And I want to be really clear about this because 3:05:36.440 --> 3:05:39.840 some people have interpreted trans misogyny to mean that trans 3:05:39.840 --> 3:05:43.240 mail and trans masculine people don't experience misogyny, which is 3:05:43.280 --> 3:05:46.520 something I have never said. And obviously the fact that 3:05:47.160 --> 3:05:53.080 oppositional sexism is a form of sexism, and obviously trans 3:05:53.080 --> 3:05:56.520 maild trans masculine people experience that. But also depending upon 3:05:56.560 --> 3:05:59.879 how you're viewed by other people, I feel like this 3:06:00.040 --> 3:06:04.040 same double pined that affects this woman affects transmeild trans 3:06:04.040 --> 3:06:07.120 masculine people differently. Where there's this tendency, like in a 3:06:07.160 --> 3:06:13.760 lot of anti trans discourses to dismiss trans masculine, especially 3:06:13.760 --> 3:06:17.680 trans masculine youth as being merely girls quote unquote who 3:06:17.720 --> 3:06:23.120 are like you know, misled or seduced by gender ideology, right, 3:06:23.600 --> 3:06:27.360 And there's a lot of real anti feminine and anti 3:06:27.400 --> 3:06:30.640 misogynistic ideas in there in addition to the fact that 3:06:30.680 --> 3:06:36.520 it it misgenders transmeld trans masculine people. And then if 3:06:36.600 --> 3:06:42.879 trans mail trans masculine people when they experience transphobia. There's 3:06:42.920 --> 3:06:46.800 often you know, like they're seen as deviant for kind 3:06:46.840 --> 3:06:51.800 of breaking that role, but often the malness or their 3:06:51.840 --> 3:06:56.920 masculinity themselves are not, you know, denigrated in the same 3:06:56.959 --> 3:07:00.720 way because being now being masculine and are seen as 3:07:00.720 --> 3:07:04.000 good in our culture. It's just that if you trans male, 3:07:04.040 --> 3:07:07.160 trans masculine, it's like, well, you're quote unquote just a woman, 3:07:07.280 --> 3:07:09.000 so you can't do it. So I think it plays 3:07:09.000 --> 3:07:12.160 out in this very complex way for a lot of 3:07:12.160 --> 3:07:16.800 trans mail trans masculine people, I think for trans female 3:07:16.800 --> 3:07:22.560 and transfeminine people, because our crossing of oppositional sexism also 3:07:22.560 --> 3:07:26.959 involves us kind of moving towards the female towards the feminine, 3:07:27.320 --> 3:07:31.400 that there's kind of those two forces intersect in a 3:07:31.440 --> 3:07:35.600 way so that it's like exacerbated. And some of the 3:07:35.640 --> 3:07:38.400 ways I talk about this in Women Girl is that, well, 3:07:38.440 --> 3:07:41.040 we live in a world where masculinity is seen as 3:07:41.080 --> 3:07:44.160 natural and femininity is seen as artificial, and since trans 3:07:44.200 --> 3:07:46.959 people are also seen as artificial compared to sis gender people, 3:07:47.280 --> 3:07:52.439 a lot of times we're viewed as doubly artificial. Furthermore, 3:07:52.480 --> 3:07:56.200 the idea that like women are seen as sex objects 3:07:56.240 --> 3:08:01.359 whereas men aren't seen as sex objects often are transitions 3:08:01.440 --> 3:08:04.920 or gender transgressions towards a female towards a feminine are 3:08:05.000 --> 3:08:08.360 presumed to be driven by sexual motives that can play 3:08:08.360 --> 3:08:10.840 out in all sorts of ways. Whether this is the 3:08:10.920 --> 3:08:15.039 idea that we're like hypersexual or promiscuous, or that we 3:08:15.160 --> 3:08:18.400 want to be sexualized by other people, or you can 3:08:18.400 --> 3:08:21.240 see it a lot with the kind of the transgender 3:08:21.280 --> 3:08:25.960 predator is often coded as like a man who either 3:08:26.040 --> 3:08:28.959 has some kind of fetish or perversion or is just 3:08:29.440 --> 3:08:32.840 literally deceiving people to get into women's restrooms to do 3:08:33.680 --> 3:08:36.440 something horrific. So those are some of the ways that 3:08:36.480 --> 3:08:41.520 it plays out. I feel that sometimes people view it 3:08:41.520 --> 3:08:44.480 in a cut or dried way that either they'll assume 3:08:44.560 --> 3:08:48.400 that trans misogyny means that trans mental trans mascum people 3:08:48.400 --> 3:08:51.600 don't experience misogyny, which again is not what that's about. 3:08:52.080 --> 3:08:55.520 Or sometimes people will like try to make really clear distinctions. 3:08:56.600 --> 3:09:00.600 There's kind of language like trans misogyny effect did versus 3:09:00.600 --> 3:09:06.279 trans misogyny. Exempt are the terms yeah, TME and TMA, 3:09:06.959 --> 3:09:08.519 which are not terms I've used. 3:09:08.440 --> 3:09:11.840 And which or that I didn't coin them. They're not 3:09:11.879 --> 3:09:12.320 in the book. 3:09:13.360 --> 3:09:17.039 And I think that when I first saw that language, 3:09:17.040 --> 3:09:19.840 and I've seen people use it in a way that 3:09:19.920 --> 3:09:22.800 appreciates the fact that some people are non binary, so 3:09:22.840 --> 3:09:24.560 it's a non identity based way. 3:09:24.879 --> 3:09:26.039 Sometimes this can. 3:09:25.920 --> 3:09:28.879 Play out in a really cut or dried sort of 3:09:28.920 --> 3:09:36.680 manner that you know, sometimes you know, whether it's intended 3:09:36.720 --> 3:09:38.840 this way or not, it can make it seem that, like, 3:09:39.480 --> 3:09:43.400 you know, just boiling down of really complex experience, people's 3:09:43.400 --> 3:09:46.920 complex experiences with different types of sexism into some people 3:09:47.360 --> 3:09:51.320 are privileged and some people are marginalized, which I think 3:09:51.400 --> 3:09:55.400 is a more general problem that happens kind of throughout 3:09:56.000 --> 3:09:57.640 all social justice movements. 3:09:57.680 --> 3:10:02.160 So yeah, it turns people are not alien to having 3:10:02.240 --> 3:10:07.000 complex experiences be boiled down to three and four letter acronyms. 3:10:07.280 --> 3:10:10.000 So yeah, I mean. 3:10:09.840 --> 3:10:14.600 I did this in Twitter form, so it was like 3:10:14.680 --> 3:10:18.520 a thread, so like now, people can't access threads unless you. 3:10:20.120 --> 3:10:22.480 Have an account with Twitter. And it's from a couple 3:10:22.520 --> 3:10:22.959 of years ago. 3:10:23.240 --> 3:10:25.080 But one of the things that I talked about was 3:10:25.080 --> 3:10:27.760 I wrote this essay about ten years ago about how 3:10:28.560 --> 3:10:31.560 CIS and trans is kind of a useful Those are 3:10:31.640 --> 3:10:34.959 useful terms, but sometimes people fall in between CIS and 3:10:35.000 --> 3:10:38.920 trans and sometimes they can be used in a way 3:10:39.320 --> 3:10:41.840 to talk about different double standards, like CIS people are 3:10:41.879 --> 3:10:43.840 treated one way, trans people are treated another. 3:10:44.560 --> 3:10:46.200 But sometimes it can be used in like a sort 3:10:46.240 --> 3:10:47.039 of reverse. 3:10:46.760 --> 3:10:50.440 Discourse way, where it's like, you know, CIS people of 3:10:50.480 --> 3:10:53.200 all the privileged, trans people of none of the privilege, 3:10:53.520 --> 3:10:54.960 and it can be used to kind of create this 3:10:55.040 --> 3:11:01.119 strict dichotomy that ends up excluding and invisibilizing some people's experiences. 3:11:01.800 --> 3:11:03.960 And I feel the same thing is happening with TMME 3:11:04.080 --> 3:11:07.680 and TMA. So I don't think that those terms need 3:11:07.720 --> 3:11:10.560 to necessarily be like, I don't think there's anything bad 3:11:10.560 --> 3:11:14.440 about those terms per se in and of themselves, but 3:11:14.520 --> 3:11:18.800 I think sometimes they can be used in ways. And 3:11:19.200 --> 3:11:22.160 part of why I reference this this SIS and trans 3:11:22.320 --> 3:11:25.640 essay that I wrote many years ago. It appears in 3:11:25.640 --> 3:11:28.680 my book Outspoken. I forget the complete title right now, 3:11:28.879 --> 3:11:32.640 which is but the reason why I bring that up 3:11:32.720 --> 3:11:37.600 is so sometimes what happens is that when people learn 3:11:37.600 --> 3:11:42.000 about SIS sexism, CIS people might be like, oh, I 3:11:42.080 --> 3:11:44.880 face the sexism, right If I'm a woman and I 3:11:44.920 --> 3:11:48.120 don't shave my legs, I'm facing sexism, And so then 3:11:48.160 --> 3:11:50.760 trans people say yeah, but it kind of plays out 3:11:50.760 --> 3:11:54.640 differently for us, and so sometimes in order to stop 3:11:54.680 --> 3:11:57.840 people from kind of making those claims, which I think 3:11:57.879 --> 3:12:01.400 it is true that you know, a woman not shaving 3:12:01.400 --> 3:12:03.560 their legs, or if a man decides to put on 3:12:03.560 --> 3:12:06.520 a dress one day, regardless of whether they're sis or trans, 3:12:06.640 --> 3:12:11.600 they could experience sis sexism or transphobia. But it plays 3:12:11.600 --> 3:12:14.280 out differently for people who are actually members of that 3:12:14.320 --> 3:12:17.120 marginalized group. And then so then the marginalized group makes 3:12:17.120 --> 3:12:20.240 a distinction even sharper, and it just kind of becomes 3:12:20.280 --> 3:12:27.000 this escalating situation where the language and kind of battles 3:12:27.000 --> 3:12:30.280 over it become even more intense. In a recent piece, 3:12:30.879 --> 3:12:32.560 one of the most recent pieces, if you go to 3:12:32.720 --> 3:12:35.960 like my medium site where my essays usually are now 3:12:36.520 --> 3:12:41.560 is it talks about the trans mass versus trans discourse 3:12:41.920 --> 3:12:44.959 in terms of what I call the cultural feminist doom loop, 3:12:45.520 --> 3:12:48.800 where and the doom loop refers to kind of these 3:12:48.840 --> 3:12:53.960 ideas where everyone like both sides are trying to talk 3:12:54.000 --> 3:12:57.360 about the reason why their experiences are legitimate, and then 3:12:57.400 --> 3:12:59.960 that seems as though the other sides are not legit, 3:13:00.600 --> 3:13:03.240 and then that kind of cascades in a way that 3:13:03.920 --> 3:13:07.320 ends up not being very productive, but takes up a 3:13:07.360 --> 3:13:10.199 lot of energy on. 3:13:10.680 --> 3:13:11.720 Places like Twitter. 3:13:13.120 --> 3:13:15.200 Yeah, and I think I think that's something We've still 3:13:15.280 --> 3:13:21.720 seen about one trillion times variety of toxic ways. But 3:13:21.760 --> 3:13:24.080 what isn't toxic is the new third edition of Whipping 3:13:24.080 --> 3:13:26.200 Girl coming out in March with You can ask your 3:13:26.240 --> 3:13:29.880 local bookstore or pre order now and Yeah join us 3:13:29.879 --> 3:13:33.720 tomorrow for our discussion with Doctor Serrano of the Anatomy 3:13:33.760 --> 3:13:35.880 of Moral Panics. This is when it Could Happen Here. 3:13:36.520 --> 3:13:37.760 Trans people are great. 3:13:40.840 --> 3:13:44.040 Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:13:44.080 --> 3:13:46.000 from now until the heat death of the universe. 3:13:46.400 --> 3:13:48.920 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:13:49.080 --> 3:13:52.160 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:13:52.240 --> 3:13:55.800 Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:13:55.879 --> 3:13:58.920 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3:13:59.280 --> 3:14:01.440 Can now find sources for it Could Happen Here listed 3:14:01.440 --> 3:14:02.960 directly in episode descriptions. 3:14:03.320 --> 3:14:04.119 Thanks for listening.