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Speaker 1: Alsome Media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to let you know this is a compilation episode. So

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Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here

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Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for

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Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to It Can Happen Here podcast about

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Speaker 2: things falling apart and people putting them back together. I

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Speaker 2: am back after us for a lengthy court battle, have

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Speaker 2: been allowed to return to the podcast, which I'm very

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Speaker 2: grateful for. And I'm joined today by John and Haval,

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Speaker 2: two friends of mine who volunteer out here in Cucumber

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Speaker 2: a lot, a lot more than I do, and we're

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Speaker 2: going to explain some developments that have happened, give you

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Speaker 2: all an update on the situation here, and let you

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Speaker 2: know how you could help soon. Welcome to the show,

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Speaker 2: both of you.

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Speaker 3: Hello, thank you, good to be back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, welcome back. If you'd like to just introduce yourself,

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Speaker 2: like your name, like whatever role you play out here,

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Speaker 2: pronouns and any affiliation with any organization you feel is relevant.

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Speaker 4: So my name is John. I'm someone that lives in

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Speaker 4: the area. This situation just kind of showed up in

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Speaker 4: my backyard. I was kind of forced into it rather

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Speaker 4: than volunteered into it, and I've been dealing with it

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Speaker 4: NonStop since the beginning. Yeah, I'm one of the main

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Speaker 4: sets of boots on the ground.

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Speaker 5: Have all I used, they them pronouns, and I organized

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Speaker 5: with Direct Action, Drumline and Zene Distro doing a lot

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Speaker 5: of mutual aid, which is how I got involved in

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Speaker 5: all this, and also with Alo Gelato helping out on

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Speaker 5: the ground since the beginning with John, pretty much just

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Speaker 5: a little after John started.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, so that's what nearly six months if you're

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Speaker 2: not counting me. Yeah, yeah, wow yeah.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, it started in May and then it stopped

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Speaker 4: during the summer time. It picked up again in September,

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Speaker 4: and we've been dealing with it NonStop.

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Speaker 2: Since the people have heard briefly from John's father Sam

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Speaker 2: in our May episodes about Title forty two, which we did. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it seems like forever ago. It also doesn't seem like

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Speaker 2: very long ago. It's just one big weird collapsing of time.

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Speaker 2: So last time we spoke, last time I spoke with Haval,

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Speaker 2: we had this situation where we had three distinct concrete

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Speaker 2: camps right adjacent to gaps in the wall, which volunteers

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Speaker 2: were servicing with food, water, warm blankets, were building shelters,

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Speaker 2: and we've heard a lot about those camps. Does one

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Speaker 2: of you guys want to explain how things have changed

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Speaker 2: since then, and really particularly in the last six weeks.

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Speaker 6: So, yeah, it's changed quite radically.

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Speaker 4: Actually, So between the months of September and December, we

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Speaker 4: were servicing these three camps kind of more or less

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Speaker 4: in our immediate area.

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Speaker 6: It was pretty straightforward.

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Speaker 4: Our routine would consist of stopping to each camp two

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Speaker 4: times a day and feeding people, providing them with all

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Speaker 4: of the different things that the US government was not

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Speaker 4: and I kind of wish things were simpler like they

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Speaker 4: were back then.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So at the end of the month of December, Secretary

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Speaker 4: Blincoln made a visit to Mexico, and I suspect that

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Speaker 4: he pressured the Mexican government to police our border for US.

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Speaker 6: One of the immediate changes.

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Speaker 4: That we saw as a result of that was the

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Speaker 4: foundation of two Mexican National Guard camps at two of

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Speaker 4: the gaps that feed into those camps in our area,

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Speaker 4: and that has basically stopped any people coming through those areas.

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Speaker 4: This has not made any less people come into the country. Actually,

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Speaker 4: the numbers have been fairly consistent. It's just that people

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Speaker 4: have been forced to go in through other areas. So

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Speaker 4: there've been many many new oads that have popped up

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Speaker 4: west of us. We have to drive quite a bit

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Speaker 4: further into towards San Diego to go and service those areas,

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Speaker 4: the main one being Sliders, which we're seeing about two

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Speaker 4: hundred people come in sometimes in a night.

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Speaker 6: It's it's not a good scene.

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Speaker 4: Whereas those three ones that we were originally servicing had

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Speaker 4: dumpsters and porta potties at the very least.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they still do.

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Speaker 6: They still still there exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm moving at the speed of government.

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Speaker 4: The new ones don't have that and people are having

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Speaker 4: to spend Well, how long were the people there most

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Speaker 4: during that crazy, crazy time, just like a few days ago.

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Speaker 4: I think they were up. They were there for up

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Speaker 4: to like nineteen hours.

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Speaker 2: See it going on a day right now. Yeah, because

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Speaker 2: we first to back crack to people like we heard

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Speaker 2: from a member of the community that there have been

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Speaker 2: people seen held there right at sliders. And then we

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Speaker 2: went out there and we kept finding like warm fires,

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Speaker 2: like where people hopefully been there and built fires. We

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Speaker 2: could see where people have scavenged to brush, and a.

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Speaker 3: Lot of documents ripped up around there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the little hill signs, Yeah, yeah, all these signs,

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Speaker 2: And so we were able to use that to suppose

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Speaker 2: that was a place where people were and then I

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Speaker 2: guess was it. Eventually someone stayed the night there and

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Speaker 2: that was what allowed us we bumped into people there.

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Speaker 2: Someone bumped into people there.

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Speaker 4: Well, we have an acquaintance that's been very helpful towards

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Speaker 4: the cause that lives just close by to there, and

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Speaker 4: he's kind.

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Speaker 6: Of one of the one that sounded the alarm.

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Speaker 2: And from there, it's like you said, it's a lot

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Speaker 2: more difficult, right, Like it's probably a thirty minute drive.

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Speaker 2: It's a steep off road, so like when it rains,

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Speaker 2: it's hard to get to, So that makes it more

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Speaker 2: difficult for us to provide stuff for people there. And like,

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Speaker 2: I guess people should realize that we didn't find out

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Speaker 2: about this because Border Patrol called us and said like, hey,

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Speaker 2: there are people here without food, water, or show they

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Speaker 2: don't do that. But yeah, that's not a thing that

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Speaker 2: they did.

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Speaker 3: We actually did one.

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Speaker 5: Another volunteer, Brendan and I were driving out and we.

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Speaker 3: Stopped on the road.

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Speaker 5: I don't think you were with us, John, but we

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Speaker 5: started talking to one of the agents because there was

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Speaker 5: two or a group of people from I think Egypt.

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Speaker 5: That was the day everyone did the mass exodus from

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Speaker 5: one seven seven. So we stopped and we're talking to

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Speaker 5: one of the agents and he did slip that there

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Speaker 5: was another camp. He didn't name it, didn't say where

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Speaker 5: it was, he just said it was that way. And

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Speaker 5: that was around the same time that Morgan had mentioned

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Speaker 5: it to us. So it's you know, we kind of

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Speaker 5: pulled it out of this agent because we were talking

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Speaker 5: very nonchalantly with him and he was being generally nice.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, they don't tell us about this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we have to find him myself. And what

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Speaker 2: I think that brings up is that there are potentially.

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Speaker 6: More, right we think know for a fact there are.

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Speaker 2: We know that there are more, and like I think

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Speaker 2: it's obviously people and people think of California and I

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Speaker 2: think of La and I think of San Diego and

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Speaker 2: they think of the beach and like pleasant weather. But

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Speaker 2: can you explain, like, it's been really cold out here.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty miserable right with the wet weather we've been having.

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Speaker 4: Pretty unknown part of southern California. You know, we're a

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Speaker 4: mountainous region just just east of San Diego, within San

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Speaker 4: Diego County. It's I mean it's not it's not crazy high.

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Speaker 4: It's you know, it's about on an average of three

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Speaker 4: thousand or four thousand feet above sea level. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: it gets very windy over here, gets very unpleasant. It

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Speaker 4: often drops down of freezing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's if you're out there all night and

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Speaker 2: you have any shelter and any anyway to get warm

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Speaker 2: and you're potentially wet from crossing a river or crossing

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Speaker 2: a stream that often pops up in the desert. Can

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Speaker 2: be a really miserable situation. So, like, it's important that

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Speaker 2: these people receive help. And right now it's just through

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Speaker 2: word of mouth and the local community that we're able

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Speaker 2: to find them right and give them that help.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So going forward, like we've seen like this movement

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Speaker 2: of migration west, what does that mean for the ability

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Speaker 2: of volunteers to provide services to migrants, And what does

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Speaker 2: it mean for the safety Like you said that the

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Speaker 2: push factors haven't changed, right, So people are still coming here.

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Speaker 2: They still have things to get away from that lead

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Speaker 2: them to come here, but they're not coming the same

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Speaker 2: way where we could so easily help them in these

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Speaker 2: three concrete sites.

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Speaker 4: So like, what does that mean, Well, it's uh, takes

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Speaker 4: a lot more time out of our day just to

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Speaker 4: drive there. For one, the main one, Sliders is up

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Speaker 4: a very shitty road.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I think they call it sliders because it's

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Speaker 5: so muddy and slidy over there when you're trying to

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Speaker 5: be Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I put someone's head into the roof of my trucks

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Speaker 2: driving that so long ago.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And uh, you know, we're not the only ones

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Speaker 4: that are displeased with this. It's more it makes the

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Speaker 4: life for the border patrol more difficult, makes life for

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Speaker 4: the emergency medical services more difficult, and of course it

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Speaker 4: makes life for the migrants more miserable. And the owner

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Speaker 4: of the property and the owners of the property in

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Speaker 4: which they're hosting these you know, detaining these migrants.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we I think every single one has been on

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Speaker 2: private property, so far right. And I think we spoke

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Speaker 2: to most of the property owners at this point and

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Speaker 2: it just seems to come out of the blue at them.

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Speaker 2: It's it's very.

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Speaker 6: Strange, permission is never sought.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think one of them is suing the

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Speaker 2: Border Patrol for it, but fake months. But obviously it

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Speaker 2: does have an impact on a landscape as well. People

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Speaker 2: understand to be a coal so they're cutting down whatever

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Speaker 2: they can to burn to make shelter, to make their

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Speaker 2: experience a little bit less miserable.

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Speaker 6: So that's the Yeah, that's that's kind of a.

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Speaker 4: Bargaining tool that we try and use when trying to

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Speaker 4: convince the property owners to allow us to build shelters

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Speaker 4: over there. It's just to try and convince them that

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Speaker 4: it'll be good for them to have migrants not be

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Speaker 4: in a position to be forced to have to cut

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Speaker 4: down the vegetation on their land and trash their land.

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Speaker 4: And you know, by allowing us to build shelters on

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Speaker 4: their property and give firewood to the to the to

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Speaker 4: the migrants that are being held on their property, it's

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Speaker 4: better for them in the long run.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And the first time we went out there, they had

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Speaker 5: created these shelters by just ripping brush and creating these

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Speaker 5: like semi circles that were maybe about a footage.

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Speaker 6: Some of them are very impressive. Yeah, yeah, like.

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Speaker 5: Two three feet high and it was nice, you know,

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Speaker 5: and enclosed, so they had some sort of shelter. But yeah,

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Speaker 5: they had to rip all that from the vegetation around

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Speaker 5: the area, which just ruins the ecosystem there, I'm sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it must tear up your hands as well.

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Speaker 2: It goes slowly bushes and stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's not

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Speaker 2: desirable for anyone talking of things aren't desirable. We unfortunately

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Speaker 2: have to take an advertising break, so we will do that.

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Speaker 2: Hit some stuff that you don't need. All right, we're back.

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Speaker 2: Those are some products and services. Now we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about the way John being very local to Kumba, right,

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Speaker 2: how it is like organizing in a rural community, and

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Speaker 2: the way that obviously you have people of very disparate

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Speaker 2: political leanings in the area, and like how you've managed

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Speaker 2: to like phrase what we're doing and to organize in

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Speaker 2: such a way that the very least people aren't like

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Speaker 2: actively pissed off at you.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So, first of all, I'm a Quaker, come from a

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Speaker 4: Quaker family, and first and foremost, I am doing this

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Speaker 4: for religious reasons, and I like to try and remind

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Speaker 4: people of that. So when people try and come at

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Speaker 4: me with anti immigrants sentiment, I just try and remind

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Speaker 4: them that, you know, this is basically what you're supposed

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Speaker 4: to do according to the Bible, and you know, to

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Speaker 4: hate on any of these people is very Unchristian, and

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Speaker 4: when I do so, it's very hard for them to

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Speaker 4: come at me with any of that stuff. But still, yes,

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Speaker 4: for the most part, the community over here have not

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Speaker 4: been very helpful towards this. They have not been very

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Speaker 4: enthused with all these migrants coming in, and you know,

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Speaker 4: they've been very regrettably misinformed about it all. They're still

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Speaker 4: looking at various crazy sources for their new use, like

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Speaker 4: YouTube channels and stuff like that, and it's kind of

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Speaker 4: kind of hard to believe. It's like, you guys live

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Speaker 4: in the area. You can just drive straight out there.

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Speaker 4: You can talk to me a person that you guys know,

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Speaker 4: yet you still choose to look up all these various

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Speaker 4: whack jobs on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we've had something of a problem with the

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Speaker 2: YouTube people, right, Like, there's a whole info, a whole

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Speaker 2: ecosystem of right wing YouTubers that I think probably most

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Speaker 2: folks don't know about, even if you take an interest

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Speaker 2: in other like right wing conspiracy stuff, as a whole

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Speaker 2: ecosystem of right wing border YouTubers who have been I mean,

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Speaker 2: describe what you've seen.

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Speaker 3: Right, We've had like a new right wing fascist out

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Speaker 3: every day.

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Speaker 5: It seems there's Oreo Express, Anthony Aguero has been out here,

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Speaker 5: JLR Investigation JLR, Roger Ogden.

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Speaker 2: Was out here the other day. Classic.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of calmed down though in the last last

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Speaker 4: couple of days.

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Speaker 6: But there was a period in late February where it

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Speaker 6: seemed like they were coming out every single day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just a different guy in a different lifted jeep.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, just after that whole border what was it that.

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Speaker 2: Take back our Border?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I got them all raled up to come out.

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Speaker 4: Actually, what really set them off to be aware of

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Speaker 4: all of this is when Fox did their big piece

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Speaker 4: out here and they were out here for multiple days.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what kind of like turned on the tap.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's very common anyway you go on the border, right,

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Speaker 2: like Fox has a border reporter Bill Malugan. People will

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Speaker 2: be familiar with Bill Malugan from publishing a story in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty which suggested the police officer had a tampon

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Speaker 2: used tampon put in his Starbucks coffee, which was demonstrably

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Speaker 2: false and didn't really very much look like a tampon.

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Speaker 2: You can google more about that if that's interesting to you.

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Speaker 2: But like someone who preps should have lost a generalistic

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Speaker 2: credibility at that point, is now doing border reporting for Fox.

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Speaker 2: And this is when I speak to people all along

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Speaker 2: the border right here Arizona, Texas. Yeah, the stuff that

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Speaker 2: Fox puts out very strongly correlates with anti migrant sentiment,

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Speaker 2: both both locally and with like these these folks coming

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Speaker 2: in and streaming and they're always asking for donations, right,

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Speaker 2: Like it's not a then they're they're not like advert

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Speaker 2: funded or like publicly funded like that. They're funded by

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Speaker 2: donations for what.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I forget the channel that Aguero is on

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Speaker 5: that he's constantly asking for the nations and like.

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Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, you just dropped ten dollars, thank you

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Speaker 2: for the five spot.

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Speaker 7: Other of like they're.

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Speaker 6: Sitting in his car ling'. That's what they're grifters.

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Speaker 4: That's that's what they're out there for every it seems

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Speaker 4: like a third of their broadcast time is spent asking

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Speaker 4: for donations, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, it's like a like a charity stream excepted

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Speaker 2: so it's the opposite of charity, I guess exactly, So

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Speaker 2: pay me to do hateful things streams. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 2: think like that as we get, as we look between

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Speaker 2: now and November, I think it's really important that, like,

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Speaker 2: the border will be a topic that people who never

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Speaker 2: come to the border will argue about constantly between now

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Speaker 2: and November. Right, Fox News will have reporting on it,

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Speaker 2: NBC will have reporting on it, like, and both of

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Speaker 2: them will have reporting that isn't anchored on what we

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Speaker 2: see every single day out here, which is a whate

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Speaker 2: variety of people from whatever the world who are having

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Speaker 2: a very difficult time right here and need our help,

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Speaker 2: right and we're doing what we can to help them.

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Speaker 2: So I guess what, like, people who are listening to

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Speaker 2: this will in the next I don't know how long

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Speaker 2: it is to a November, what six months, seven eight months,

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Speaker 2: they'll have conversations with their family members, with their friends,

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Speaker 2: with people in bars, whatever regarding the border. What do

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Speaker 2: you think they should know about, like, what we're seeing,

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Speaker 2: and like because there's this whole border invasion narrative, right,

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Speaker 2: and like, this is not an invasion. We were just

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Speaker 2: out joking with some people and helping them get their

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Speaker 2: firewood prepped. Like these people are not a threat.

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Speaker 4: I think people often make the mistake of considering this

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Speaker 4: issue to be a political issue. It really is just

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Speaker 4: a humanitarian issue. Vast majority of the people that I've

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Speaker 4: talked to have very legitimate reasons for needing to time

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Speaker 4: into this country, whether they're from Ecuador, you know, you

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Speaker 4: know the situation over there recently there were gangsters that

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Speaker 4: took over a TV station, Or in Guatemala, where I

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Speaker 4: spoke to a man who told me that his children

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Speaker 4: with college degrees can make enough family money to feed

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Speaker 4: their families, or even in Afghanistan where people have literally

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Speaker 4: had the Taliban threatened their families lives.

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Speaker 3: The same with and the Iatola escaping.

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Speaker 6: Kurdish people in Turkey. I mean, the list goes on.

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Speaker 4: Or you know, climate refugees like the Mauritanians that we

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Speaker 4: just spoke with earlier. Yes, they're they're coming, and they

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Speaker 4: have really reasonable grounds for asylum over here.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it wouldn't be such an quote unquote invasion

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Speaker 5: if they were just allowed to walk through the port

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Speaker 5: of entry. This it's this process is so silly because

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Speaker 5: they cross. They could just do this all at the

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Speaker 5: port of entry. They really could be safe. The policies

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Speaker 5: just choose not to do this. Yeah, that's the part

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Speaker 5: that really doesn't make sense. It's like we're letting them

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Speaker 5: in anyways. Why do we need to make their lives

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Speaker 5: so uncomfortable, you know and dangerous?

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Speaker 6: Right? Dangerous?

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Speaker 2: I mean, John, you and I were on a water

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Speaker 2: drop maybe two months ago now six weeks ago in

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Speaker 2: slightly west of here, right, do you remember? We were

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Speaker 2: driving down to where we're going to get off, and

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Speaker 2: we met that family from Guinea. There was like, do

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Speaker 2: you want to just describe what you saw because I

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Speaker 2: think it was like, at least for me, that was

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Speaker 2: like I've seen it a lot, but it still emotionally

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Speaker 2: affected me.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, there was a there was a Guinean woman

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Speaker 4: and her kid. I think he might have been like

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Speaker 4: what four or something three three? Yeah, and there was

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Speaker 4: also a Nigerian woman and you know, Nigerian speak English

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Speaker 4: and Guineans speak French. They weren't really able to communicate

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Speaker 4: with one another, and yet they were still traveling side

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Speaker 4: by side because they they just teamed up because they

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Speaker 4: were in a desperate situation together. One of them was

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Speaker 4: was she and sandals.

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Speaker 2: One of them didn't have shoes at all.

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Speaker 6: Didn't have shoes at all.

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Speaker 4: Right, yeah, yeah, it's six weeks is a long time,

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Speaker 4: you know what you're doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you see horrible things every day.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's been a very eventful time. Yeah, every day

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Speaker 4: feels like a news story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. And they just kind of sat on the.

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Speaker 4: Side of the road and uh, we're out of breath,

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Speaker 4: and they were just basically asking us to help them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember the little girl because we were obviously

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Speaker 2: concerned with the lady who didn't have shoes and trying

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Speaker 2: to help like bandage her feet and stuff. But then

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Speaker 2: I remember the little girl just wasn't saying anything, and

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Speaker 2: I suddenly realized, oh, this little girl is probably very cold.

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Speaker 2: She was like, you know, early, like mildly hypothermic.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I had her wrapped up in a little mylaud

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Speaker 2: blanket with me to warm her up. And it's just,

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Speaker 2: I know, it's just for one reason or another, that

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Speaker 2: was a moment where I was like, why on earth

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Speaker 2: are we doing this to a three year old? Like

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Speaker 2: what what possible reason could there be this three year

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Speaker 2: old girl to have hypothermia here and like the country

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Speaker 2: in the world.

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Speaker 4: Who could possibly agree that this is a good thing? Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 4: Or another experience I had in the beginning of February

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Speaker 4: where there was this Colombian man who was in tears,

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Speaker 4: who approached me and told me that his daughter was very,

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Speaker 4: very ill, and he dragged me over to a porta

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Speaker 4: potty and she was there, bundled up with like nine

401
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Speaker 4: blankets or something, not really responding to my questions. He

402
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Speaker 4: was trying to contact nine to one one, but the

403
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Speaker 4: responder on a nine to one to one or the

404
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Speaker 4: dispatcher didn't speak Spanish, so I had to communicate with

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Speaker 4: them and navigate the whole situation. Turns out she did

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Speaker 4: have hypothermia. Yeah, but the ambulance would not take him

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Speaker 4: along with the mother and the child to the hospital.

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Speaker 4: So again it's another case of family separation. Who knows

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Speaker 4: what might have happened. They would have gotten processed separately.

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Speaker 4: He could have ended up in Louisiana and she could

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Speaker 4: have ended up in Riverside or somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and at that point, once again, it's not the

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Speaker 2: government or your tax is it were paying for those

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Speaker 2: people to be reunified, right, that's work that's done by

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Speaker 2: NGOs and modern trey organizations exactly. Yeah, despite the massive

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Speaker 2: amount of money we spend on And we were just

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Speaker 2: talking the other day about how they like the architectural

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Speaker 2: marvel of sections of the border wall right where they've

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Speaker 2: poured concrete at like a forty five plus degree angle

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Speaker 2: and spent millions of dollars for every yard of that,

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Speaker 2: and we don't have enough money to give this three

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Speaker 2: year old girl a blanket or to get that family

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Speaker 2: back together.

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Speaker 5: It's pathetic, it's it's yeah, it's mind boggling. Yeah, even

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Speaker 5: today with that dude from Brazil. He came up to

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Speaker 5: me when we first got here, they were starving, wanted food, water,

427
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:39,919
Speaker 5: and he was like, I'm sick, I have a fever.

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Speaker 5: So I hooked him up with some cold medicine that

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Speaker 5: we had in our medkit, and then later when we

430
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Speaker 5: went back to do the second round of feeding, he

431
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Speaker 5: got more food and he was like, thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: We're starving.

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Speaker 5: We were told to when we were dropped off to

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Speaker 5: wait in the mountains at six pm to six am,

435
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Speaker 5: so they were just hadn't really I don't know if

436
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Speaker 5: they were on the American side yet or how that worked.

437
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 5: Didn't really describe it, but had to wait in the

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Speaker 5: mountains before crossing, and so people are getting sick out there.

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Speaker 3: We ran into that dude with.

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Speaker 5: The dog bite on at at one seven seven. He

441
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 5: was just so we we always go check this one

442
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 5: camp because there hasn't been out since Squaddi and SNL

443
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 5: have put their camp on the other side. There hadn't

444
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 5: been a whole lot of people crossing in this area,

445
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 5: but we go check it periodically. In one morning, yeah,

446
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 5: we saw this man hobbling towards us as we're driving

447
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 5: down the road with a stick and we're like, why

448
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,679
Speaker 5: is he walking like this? Pulled over and he was

449
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,399
Speaker 5: bitten by a dog. He said he went to take

450
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,160
Speaker 5: a drink of water and some dogs attacked him, two dogs.

451
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 6: I think.

452
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, he'd described it to the wolf, right, yeah.

453
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, So we called the MS and they picked them

454
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:39,919
Speaker 5: up and took them to the hospitals.

455
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 2: Right, but you hadn't been there. It's a long way

456
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 2: to walk with a dog bite in your.

457
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 5: Leg Yeah, and who knows, Bordevite might not even even

458
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 5: if ems them out. They might have just tried to

459
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 5: process them with the dog bite.

460
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 3: Yeah get it could have gotten infected or infect toward us.

461
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:53,719
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah.

462
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 4: But just to go back on the mutual aid question

463
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 4: that you had earlier, it hasn't all been negative. It's

464
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 4: actually been a really great experience in which I've met

465
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 4: really great people from all kinds of walks of life

466
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 4: who have just joined together because they see a problem

467
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 4: and know that they're the only they're the only ones

468
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 4: that can make a difference. And it is a sure

469
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 4: easy way to be really important and make a difference

470
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 4: in other people's lives. You don't really need to have

471
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 4: much more than a good heart and a willingness to work.

472
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I think we should talk about that more

473
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: because not that some of us had some prior life

474
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 2: experience right working with refugees or migration, but I think

475
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 2: most of us just were people who were like, yeah,

476
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 2: this isn't right, and I am able to help, and

477
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 2: so I'm going to help. So can you talk about

478
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 2: like how people can help? And then, like you said,

479
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,640
Speaker 2: I think I've actually got a lot out of this

480
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 2: and that I feel more affirmed in my belief that

481
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 2: we can look out after each other without the need

482
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 2: to control each other, and like we don't necessarily need

483
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,639
Speaker 2: people with guns and badges to create a society that

484
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 2: cares for people who need taking care of. So prep

485
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,479
Speaker 2: you could describe like how people can help, and then

486
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 2: what it is that you've got out of this that

487
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 2: keeps you wanting to do this.

488
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 6: Well, first of all, yeah, we don't.

489
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 4: We don't have a clear structure of authoritative structure over here.

490
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 4: It's we take ideas as a collective. Different people have

491
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 4: contributed different things. There's a woman that really nailed down

492
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 4: the PB and J making system and we've all just

493
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 4: been following her lead.

494
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 6: There.

495
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 4: Some people came up with the idea of having a

496
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 4: cell phone charging station.

497
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 6: That was you, And uh, it's just the list goes on.

498
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 4: And if you wanted to help, you could just come

499
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 4: by to the border, come to one of these sites

500
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 4: and just start distributing food or teaming teaming up with

501
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 4: us somehow, or by donating to the GoFundMe.

502
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's the good fund Me?

503
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 6: John?

504
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 4: So it's a go fundme that was set up by

505
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 4: my by my dad I don't actually know what it's

506
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 4: titled Cucumba Migrant Aid.

507
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: Go fund Me had Cumba Migrant eight.

508
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 3: It comes up Samuel Schultz. I think is by Samuel.

509
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 2: Schultz, so you'll know because it has like fifty thousand

510
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 2: dollars on it and like maybe seven woods as a description.

511
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 2: It's like Google because not much else is going down here,

512
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: I guess. But yeah, people can help that way, and

513
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 2: we've had people come who listened. We had two people

514
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: this morning right who'd heard about it on the podcast

515
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: and it come and helped. Yeah, and it made a

516
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 2: really really great difference.

517
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, they camped out at the Sliders and really held

518
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 5: it down, which is really important. I mean for some

519
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 5: of us, we you know, like John and I, we

520
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 5: kind of do like a morning shift where we get

521
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 5: up really early and make sure to do everything that

522
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 5: we need to do, prepping sandwiches, checking on all the camps.

523
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 5: But a lot of people come in in the middle

524
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 5: of the night. Sliders had people come in what at

525
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 5: midnight or one am?

526
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, all throughout.

527
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 4: A group came at midnight, a group came at like

528
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 4: one am, and then there were also more that came

529
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 4: at four am.

530
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, so like having someone on site camping, you know,

531
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,479
Speaker 5: making sure that people's needs are met and that if

532
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 5: any emergencies take place, that they're taken care of, and

533
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 5: it's just that smiling face when they get here.

534
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 3: It makes a huge difference.

535
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 5: Like that dude from Brazil, like earlier he was saying

536
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 5: to me, he was like, thank you so much, Like

537
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 5: this is like this is humanity right here, Like I'm

538
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 5: a human and I'm like, yes, we will treat you

539
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:15,959
Speaker 5: like humans here.

540
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 4: Like at the end of the day, you know, these

541
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 4: people coming through Central America and Mexico, they go through

542
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 4: so much, you know, extortion, people ripping them off, just

543
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 4: feeling unwelcome throughout that whole voyage. Yeah, just having a

544
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 4: group of people welcome them into the country and treat

545
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 4: them with dignity is worth more than any bottle of

546
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 4: water or sandwich that we can give them. And you know,

547
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 4: that's that's the main thing that we're doing.

548
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 2: I would say, I want to emphasize that people can

549
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 2: help in so many ways that you can send us stuff,

550
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 2: you can send us money, or you can just show up.

551
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: If you just have a weekend that's totally fine, or

552
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 2: a day it's totally fine. Or if you just want

553
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 2: to come and make sandwiches, that's totally fine. Like like it,

554
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: We're a very diverse group of people, and some people

555
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: have had more time than others. But yeah, everyone I

556
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: think is valued, and like you said, I think like

557
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,479
Speaker 2: we're the way that we organize without anyone, like we

558
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 2: organized horizontally has allowed us to be so much better.

559
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: Like do you remember the day there was a day

560
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 2: when we ran out of plates and we we were

561
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: like down in Willow and it was just it was

562
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: like chaos. And then someone who just arrived that day

563
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: was like, oh, what if we put the beans in

564
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 2: a sandwich bag and give people? That was actually Peter,

565
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 2: who's back now after going on rowing it for a while.

566
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: But yeah, like if we had been like, no, I'm

567
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,479
Speaker 2: in charge, we've been doing this for longer, then those

568
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 2: people wouldn't have got fed, right, But because we were

569
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 2: like willing to listen, then the people got fed, and

570
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: like we were all happier because the people got fed, right,

571
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 2: Like it worked better that way. So like as things change,

572
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: because like border patrol have said explicitly that they're trying

573
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 2: to push people west, right, what do you think, like

574
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 2: what do we need going forward, what do you see

575
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 2: like the situation being, and like it would be good

576
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 2: to explain the context of like the changing seasons here

577
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: as well.

578
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 4: Yes, so I think what we're going to see more

579
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 4: of is people that are crossing in unorthodox areas, more

580
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 4: people that are hopping the fence, more people that are

581
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 4: cutting holes in the walls, just popping up all over

582
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 4: the place.

583
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 6: So, yeah, it would be great to have eyes.

584
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 4: Along the border, people that are willing to travel up

585
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 4: and down along the border to find out where these

586
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 4: people are coming through, because for the most part, we

587
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 4: don't know a lot oftentimes where these people are coming through.

588
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 4: There are a couple of new oads open air detention

589
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 4: sites that are relatively close to us that we can't

590
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 4: find even.

591
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, like maybe if we had a super fancy

592
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: drone we could find them, or just boots on the ground,

593
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: nice road vehicle. Yeah yeah, yeah, then these are all

594
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: things that cost money that we don't have. But like

595
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,239
Speaker 2: we've all put lots of miles on our trucks and

596
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: lots of miles on our boots trying to trying to

597
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: help out.

598
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 3: My exhaust is falling off all these bumps.

599
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, my transfer case to competing. But like, yeah, if

600
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: we had more people, some of us could focus on

601
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: feeding people here because there was how many people were

602
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: there when we just left now one hundred and twenty

603
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: something like that.

604
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh no, actually probably more if you count the

605
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 4: new group. I think you know what a conservative estimate.

606
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 6: Would have been maybe one hundred and forty.

607
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's we'd made one hundred and forty sandwiches

608
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: to feed them today, and we'd chopped firewood and taken

609
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: that out and we'd be given all that out right.

610
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: That was after the same thing at breakfast time. That

611
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: doesn't leave much time to go meander along the border

612
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: and look for another site. So if we had more people,

613
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 2: we could do that and that would be really valuable.

614
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 3: Also, if you have connection to firewood.

615
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, if you're a person who can bring

616
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: us a lot of firewood.

617
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 5: We have one homie right now and breaking his back.

618
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 2: For us.

619
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's a definite big need out here.

620
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 6: Yeah.

621
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: Is there other stuff like that that people who maybe

622
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 2: aren't here but have connections to or they could they

623
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: could send that's particularly needed.

624
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 3: A nice off road vehicle, got one lying around.

625
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 4: Firewood is definitely a big thing. That's that's a huge need.

626
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's getting really cold up here, and especially in

627
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 5: like sliders too.

628
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 3: I think it's higher in elevation, so.

629
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: So exposed to there's nothing between you and the wind. Yeah. Yeah,

630
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: it's very cold out there.

631
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 6: Yeah.

632
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 4: But and and just other things that are that are

633
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 4: easier for us to get, but we just constantly need,

634
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 4: such as breads, blankets, bread.

635
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, tents, all these things.

636
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 7: Right.

637
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: The wind and the sun destroys everything that we've stockpiled

638
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: after a while, and we have to keep rempanking the wheel.

639
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: And then sometimes borter patrol destroys our stuff as well,

640
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 2: or sometimes some some chubs come and destroy our stuff,

641
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: which oh, the chuts destroying our Yeah, we should talk

642
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: about the destruction of the shelters before we finish, I guess,

643
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: just to end on a sad note. We was happy,

644
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: not because we built them again and they're fine. So

645
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: there were some shelters I think mostly they were ones

646
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 2: that had been built. What they were ones that have

647
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: been built volunteers. Yeah, and what joh and you saw

648
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: what happened to those shelters.

649
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, So we built some shelters at one of

650
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 4: the sites at one of the main sites. You know,

651
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 4: it was very simple just by having of plywood as

652
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 4: the frame holding it up and then nailing down some

653
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 4: tarps on it with batons. It was It was a

654
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 4: nice thing. It stood up to the heavy winds that

655
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 4: we have here very well.

656
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,719
Speaker 2: It's incomparably better to not having a shelter there.

657
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, it's a completely different They're instantly use once

658
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 5: people across and it's awesome to see, like adults that

659
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 5: are alone will get out and force family shelters like, yeah,

660
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 5: you get it first for sure.

661
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, and yeah, we built those. It was working out good.

662
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 4: And then one day the Border Patrol showed up or

663
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 4: a company that was subcontracted by them and demolished them

664
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 4: all using skiploaders and bulldozers and such. We showed up

665
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 4: the following day we rebuilt all the shelters and we're

666
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:16,239
Speaker 4: really happy about it.

667
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 6: You know.

668
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 4: It was kind of a big fuck you to them.

669
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 4: You can tear down our stuff, but we'll just come

670
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 4: back and build more.

671
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 6: Yeah. But then what was it like a three four

672
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 6: days later.

673
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 2: Or the next day maybe I'm not the day.

674
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 6: Two days it was close.

675
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 4: Ye, some guys just showed up and they tore it

676
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 4: all up with hammers.

677
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 6: They are finishing a tiny little finishing.

678
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, luckily they didn't really come equipped, like maybe.

679
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 6: With the tools, they didn't really know what they were doing.

680
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's fair to say that, but still

681
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: it's annoying when you've put the time into building it. Right,

682
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: and Border Patrol didn't destroy contractors didn't destroy the shelters. First,

683
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: we were like, oh, maybe they're not using this, but

684
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 2: there are one hundred and forty people there right now,

685
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: like in the shelters that got rebuilt for a third time.

686
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: So like, I guess even we do appreciate people donating,

687
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,959
Speaker 2: and we understand that people's resources are scarce, and like

688
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 2: the economy is bad and the rent is too damn high,

689
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: et cetera. But like every time we build up enough stuff,

690
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 2: we have to like we're always running uphill because like

691
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: stuff just gets destroyed either by the weather or by

692
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: the Border patrol or by volunteer Border Patrol judge, Like

693
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,959
Speaker 2: we could, I guess desperately need your help. And like

694
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: at some point the news cycle will move on from

695
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: the border, and that doesn't mean that we will be

696
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 2: able to move on from having people to help here, right, because,

697
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: like John said, there were people and people always deserve

698
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: to be treated with dignity. Is there anything else that

699
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 2: you guys think that people should know about the situation? Here?

700
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: We wrap ups kind of chill. It is really nice.

701
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: I like being here. Come here because it makes me happy,

702
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: and my friends are here.

703
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, And like the Slider's location is located in a

704
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 5: really awesome like you can see down just past the

705
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 5: border wall. There's like a nice little train track that

706
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 5: used to go from us into Mexico, I guess, and

707
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 5: just beyond that there's like sheep on a farm in

708
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 5: the distance, like rolling hills, the clouds come through, and

709
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 5: like say, it's a really beautiful place to be and

710
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 5: to hang out. And a lot of the locals that

711
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 5: don't hate what we're doing are very nice.

712
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 3: The people at the hotel are very supportive.

713
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 4: And yeah, we're a great group, really good people. It's

714
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 4: always really fun to do anything like this. People are

715
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 4: generally enamored by our project and want to be involved

716
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,239
Speaker 4: and come back a second time. I mean we're kind

717
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 4: of like cowboys. I mean we're doing this all on

718
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 4: our own. We're driving up and down looking at the

719
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 4: sites looking around and all that whole responsibility is on

720
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 4: our shoulders.

721
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels good to take responsibility.

722
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 6: It definitely does.

723
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: We're doing this.

724
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 7: It's like no one else will, so yeah, just do it.

725
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: Like that's fine. It's very like it reminds me of

726
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: the punk scene growing up, but like it's a big

727
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 2: important thing. Get Like you said, Fox, every national news

728
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: network has been down here, every drifting streamer has been

729
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 2: down here. But the end of the day, it's a

730
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: few dozen random people who are actually the ones making

731
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 2: sure that people don't die here. For all the government

732
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 2: attention and for all the millions of dollars spent, it's

733
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 2: just us.

734
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 6: Yeah, working on a fraction of the butt.

735
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 4: I mean, it costs them more to fly a helicopter

736
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 4: for a few hours than we've ever spent.

737
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: In our entire GOFUNDB. Yeah, and yeah, like we get

738
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 2: it done. We're very efficient, I guess in that sense.

739
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 2: But yeah, we would love more people. People have come

740
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: because I listen to podcasts and that also like just

741
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 2: for me personally means the world to me. Like most

742
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 2: of the time we just talk into a microphone and

743
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: then you can't really see who you're talking to us

744
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: unless you go on like social media, and that's not

745
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: always the best reflection of humanity. So like, it really

746
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 2: means the world to me that someone like listens to

747
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 2: this when they're driving to work or you know, going

748
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 2: on a jog or whatever I'm doing, and it's like, no,

749
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 2: I will I will go and I will help, because

750
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: I think that is how we solve so many of

751
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: our problems. Like there is a massive problem with people

752
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: not being able to afford rent living on the street

753
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 2: in this country, and we solve it in the same

754
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: way by just showing up for each other.

755
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 5: And there's also different ways to get plugged in, like

756
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 5: if the desert's not your thing, it doesn't I mean,

757
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 5: this is like where the process starts as far as

758
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 5: like the spectrum of the whole border crisis or not crisis,

759
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 5: but the whole border humanitarian situation.

760
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 3: We have going on here. So this is what we're

761
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 3: doing out here. But there's also airport runs.

762
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 5: A lot of them get ditched in the airports, so

763
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 5: I think we all we got SD and maybe m death.

764
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 3: And at last center kind of hold down.

765
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 5: They do airport runs, border patrol just I guess at

766
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 5: night they don't drop them off like after ten or something.

767
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 5: They don't drop them off at the IRIS station. They'll

768
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 5: just drop them straight off at the airport. So they

769
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 5: need help being fed. A lot of them don't have

770
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 5: plane tickets. They need to kind of some you know,

771
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 5: people need blankets because they have to sleep there. So

772
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 5: we all, I mean we all we got is great

773
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 5: for that. You can plug in with them, and I

774
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 5: think Alochlado and who else is it? M Deef as well,

775
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 5: that's doing the Irish street releases. So when the Border

776
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 5: Patrol just releases them on the street, like a lot

777
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 5: of people just getting a cab and go. They have

778
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 5: the resources they can do that, they're already planned. But

779
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 5: some people don't have any money or they got robbed

780
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 5: on the way here, so they have nothing. They need

781
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 5: a lot of help. They need to figure out where

782
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 5: to go, they need a place to stay. So there's

783
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,399
Speaker 5: the street releases, there's the airport, there's I think that's

784
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 5: kind of.

785
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 4: Or or by just helping with shelters and organizations in

786
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 4: whatever city you happen to be living in. You know,

787
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 4: the majority of the migro well not the majority, but

788
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 4: a very typical answer migrants give me when I ask

789
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 4: them where in the United States they're going to? Is

790
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 4: New York City or Chicago or any of these major cities.

791
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, Lincoln, Nebraska. Yeah, it's gonna be Idaho, have fun.

792
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was beautiful.

793
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: It was a guy have on and I met from

794
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: a minority ethnic group in Russia. We met in September,

795
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 2: Like I remember one of those first really cold nights,

796
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: and I was talking to this person and they were

797
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania and I checked in with them a few

798
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,439
Speaker 2: weeks ago and they're like happily living in Pennsylvania. Can't

799
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 2: understand a word anyone else is saying. It's nice to

800
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: see and yeah, you can help those people, lily in

801
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 2: whatever community you're in. And like, if you're further along

802
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 2: the border, there's Aarha Samaritans, there's no massive worth days,

803
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: there's humane borders, two Songsamaritans as well. Right, yeah, all

804
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 2: along the border, you know there are the there are

805
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: lots of good people in Texas, right, there's a sidewalk

806
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 2: school and Blainoso Matamoros, the people at the National Butterfly

807
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: Center who are very nice people who we've heard from before.

808
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: Like all along the border and like all around this country.

809
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 2: There are there are things you can do to help,

810
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: and I want to reinforce it. It's not like this

811
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: penurius thing we do that's miserable and we all get

812
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 2: together and cry every night. Like we do have a

813
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: nice time, even though we have seen some really stressful things.

814
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,439
Speaker 2: Like we all look after one another and held space

815
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 2: when people do need help or extra time to process something.

816
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: But it's a very supportive community and we support each

817
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: other through lots of other things, like aside from this,

818
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of people in general in

819
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,439
Speaker 2: the twenty first century America struggle with isolation. And that's

820
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 2: a thing that capitalism does to people, right, it isolates

821
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 2: us from each other. And so hopefully, like I think

822
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 2: this is a solution for me this this has been

823
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 2: a really positive thing, but like generally my sense of

824
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 2: hope and.

825
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, and like what we're doing this kind of does

826
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 5: it's disaster humanitarian relief effort.

827
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 3: It's kind of with the.

828
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 5: Way the climate is going in the world in climate

829
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 5: climate are going to.

830
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: Get less common.

831
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, this will just be getting more common, and like

832
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 5: this kind of like preparing and building community and like

833
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 5: this disaster scenario is going to Yeah, definitely be more

834
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 5: in commons.

835
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 6: And it's not that easy to do. I mean, it's

836
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 6: not that hard to do.

837
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 4: You know, you just got to have the intention and

838
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 4: then you just got to get together and that's all.

839
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:02,439
Speaker 4: That's all you really need to do.

840
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 2: Don't think that it's like this. If someone had said

841
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: to us, what plus or minus fifty thousand people probably

842
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 2: have come through, I have no idea on the numbers,

843
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 2: but somewhere around.

844
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 6: There, yeah, probably more than that.

845
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, if we like I remember in May when we

846
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 2: cleaned up the first o ads when we were like

847
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 2: when I first met your mum and dad, John, we

848
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: were cleaning up the first o ads and we were like, Wow,

849
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: that was a horrible thing that happened. That was really fucked.

850
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: If someone had said, right, well, between now and next March,

851
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 2: fifty thousand people will come through here and it's mostly

852
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: going to be you guys who are here picking up trash,

853
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 2: and that's that's all. It's going to be. Like it's

854
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 2: on you, it would have been it would have seemed overwhelming, right,

855
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: But I don't think people should feel afraid to confront

856
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 2: these big problems because like, between the group of people

857
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 2: who we've assembled here we've been able to confront this

858
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 2: problem and make it survivable and treat people with dignity

859
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 2: and bring some dignity and humanity into a situation where

860
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 2: there wasn't any right.

861
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 3: No, yeah, And there's a role for everybody.

862
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 5: No matter what you do, you can find your niche

863
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 5: of what know you makes you feel good or something

864
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 5: that you're good at, you know. Yeah, it's finding the

865
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 5: little fascists that destroyed our things online and doing all

866
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 5: that online footwork, or it's building shelters, or it's making

867
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 5: PB and j's or.

868
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: Our friends made a website and made a really good website.

869
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,720
Speaker 5: Website, yeah, or even yeah, just being someone that speaks

870
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 5: multiple languages is a huge need out here, especially I

871
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 5: mean Spanish is pretty common, but the harder languages, like

872
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 5: I mean Mandarin.

873
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, if you speak Mandarin and then you reach

874
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 2: out to us and when we can call you, then

875
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 2: that would be huge.

876
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 6: Right.

877
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 2: That can be really in a medical emergency, that could

878
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: be a life or death thing. So there were there

879
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: are a ton of ways to help and re encourage

880
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 2: people to kind of go off to they can where

881
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 2: can people follow along with you? Two? Do you have

882
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: like social media or anything that you want to plug.

883
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 6: I don't. I'm gonna keep minding.

884
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 2: The world beautiful.

885
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 7: Yeah.

886
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 5: One of the how I got involved in this is

887
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 5: through members of a drum line that I am part of,

888
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 5: So we show up for protests, have been since twenty twenty.

889
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 3: Direct Action drum Line on Instagram.

890
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 5: We post a lot of different stuff from organizing for

891
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 5: Palestine to you know, we were doing a lot of

892
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 5: Black Lives Matter stuff early in twenty twenty and now

893
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 5: it's you know, kind of cross mixed with border raide

894
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 5: since I've been out here. So we occasionally will make

895
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 5: posts so you.

896
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 3: Can follow along there.

897
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 5: Alo Gelato is a good one to follow on social media.

898
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 5: Income Paul Wellness on Instagram Borderlands Relief Collective. I'm sure

899
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 5: a lot of the people listening already follow a lot.

900
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 3: Of these people.

901
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 5: But yeah, there's a network through all of that, and

902
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 5: so once you start following one or the other, we

903
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 5: all tag each other and we share each other's stuff,

904
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 5: so you can get involved that way and figure out

905
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 5: what's going on. Yeah, and the is it bored? What's

906
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 5: the website for? That's a great resource.

907
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 2: Border Rade don't get helped to IO. I think if

908
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 2: you give it a Google somewhere somewhere around that you'll

909
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: find it. It's a good website. And like if you

910
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 2: face seen similar issues in your community, wherever you are,

911
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 2: whatever it is, Like, we've definitely made a lot of

912
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 2: mistakes and we've learned a lot, and so we've tried

913
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: to document the things that we've learned so that you

914
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 2: guys don't have to reinvent the wheel somewhere else. Right,

915
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 2: Like you know, you can be an efficient PB and jamaker,

916
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: just like us.

917
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 6: Learn Suirly's technique.

918
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: All right, thank you so much, guys. I really appreciate

919
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 2: your time.

920
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 3: Question, Thank you, jeers.

921
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 7: Welcome to It could happen here, the show about how

922
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,479
Speaker 7: a small group of people are trying to keep making

923
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 7: bad things happen, and we're going to tell you what

924
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 7: they are. I'm Garrison Davis and joined with me is

925
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 7: doctor James Stout. Hello, doctor, Hi Garrison. Thank you for

926
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 7: having me fitted some respect on my name.

927
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 2: Appreciate it.

928
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 7: So today we're going to be talking about something called

929
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,919
Speaker 7: Agenda forty seven, and actually we're going to be talking

930
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 7: about this this whole week. We've gotten a lot of

931
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 7: quests to talk about the heritage Foundation's Project twenty twenty five,

932
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 7: which is a kind of an a road map for

933
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 7: how a Republican president could change the country if they

934
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 7: get elected next year. And although this proposal is scary

935
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 7: and quite big, it's a massive, massive book. Yeah, Trump

936
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 7: certainly listens to these types of guys, but he doesn't

937
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 7: always like really like them.

938
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 3: Oa.

939
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 2: He does what the fuck he wants. And again, no

940
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: one controlling Trump.

941
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 7: He kind of does whatever he wants, right, Yeah, And

942
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 7: I mean there certainly are other people like in Congress,

943
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,479
Speaker 7: including the Speaker, who are definitely pushing this Project twenty

944
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 7: twenty five. And I think we'll probably talk about this

945
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 7: on the show at some other point. But Trump actually

946
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 7: has his own plans for if he's gonna be elected

947
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 7: president again, and we're gonna be talking about that, and

948
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 7: that is called Agenda forty seven, which I believe is

949
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 7: a subtle reference to the forty seventh president, which will

950
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 7: be him if he gets elected.

951
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, also the forty fifth president. So yeah, sell more

952
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 2: merch that way.

953
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 7: So the next the next next few episodes, we're gonna

954
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 7: be diving into Trump's plans for if he becomes the

955
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 7: forty seventh president of the United States called Agenda forty seven.

956
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 7: He has all of these listed on his website, and

957
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 7: one of my favorite parts is that to accompany each

958
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 7: one of these, like policy proposals, he has a video

959
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 7: of him like reading out something on a like a teleprompter,

960
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 7: and he very often will go off script, just completely

961
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 7: and just start talking, which which they include the entire

962
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 7: transcript for underneath each video, which is just fascinating to read,

963
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 7: totally divorced of like how he talks. It's just amazing. Also,

964
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 7: all of the videos are embedded on his website via Rumble,

965
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 7: which is just amazing, an amazing stuff happening.

966
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: It's perfect.

967
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 7: So that that's that's kind of the uh, the overview

968
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 7: of what we're gonna be doing this next week and

969
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 7: why and the reason why I have James here. James

970
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 7: you you you work in education, right I do?

971
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 2: I do some educating.

972
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 7: Yeah, so you have you have opinions on education, I

973
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 7: would assume.

974
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 2: Yeah strong ones as a doctor, yeah yeah, a doctor

975
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 2: of mond European history. Just to be clear before anyone, yes,

976
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 2: pictures of their illnesses, please don't.

977
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 7: So, I'm gonna be talking about Trump's plan for education,

978
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 7: and by the end we can see if it gets

979
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 7: the James Stout approval. As someone who works in education.

980
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean, I'm up in minded. Let's see

981
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 2: what he's got.

982
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 7: So Trump, Now, the problem with us doing these episodes

983
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 7: is that all of these are like videos right for

984
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 7: his policy proposals. And I don't want to subject to you,

985
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 7: the listener, to just videos of Trump talking.

986
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 6: I don't.

987
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 7: You don't need to hear that. But there's a part

988
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 7: of me, just deep down, a shameful part of that

989
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 7: when I'm reading these quotes, I really want to like

990
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 7: slip into like a like a bad transgender Trump impression,

991
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 7: which I've tried to suppress. I've tried to suppress the surge,

992
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 7: but every once in a while, it just it just

993
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 7: sneaks out. So as I'm going through these quotes, I

994
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 7: cannot promise that that certain things might start happening. And

995
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 7: it's just it's just a part of the deal.

996
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 2: You've been possessed by the spirit of Donald Trump.

997
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 7: Oh God. So on this note, Trump opens his education

998
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 7: proposal with this line quote, our public schools have been

999
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 7: taken over by the radical left maniacs, which really sets

1000
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 7: a tone for the rest of what we're gonna be

1001
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 7: talking about today.

1002
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 2: I do want a highlight that I've been trying for

1003
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 2: more than a decade, But obviously it's about people have

1004
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 2: been more successful than me in that regard.

1005
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 7: So over these next like twenty five minutes, I'm gonna

1006
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 7: try to explain what he calls his quote plan to

1007
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 7: save American education and give power back to American parents

1008
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 7: and the American parents line is going to be a

1009
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 7: reoccurring trend here. So in kind of a broad overview,

1010
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 7: Trump believes that regular public schools, as well as colleges

1011
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 7: and universities are just so far gone to not only

1012
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 7: require like massive, massive regressive changes, but also frankly whole

1013
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 7: new alternatives are needed, which leads us to our first

1014
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 7: policy proposal. So Trump says that Americans are horrified that

1015
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 7: quote once respected universities express support for the savages and

1016
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 7: jihattists who attacked Israel unquote. So that's obviously not great there.

1017
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 7: It is savages, very very quick, just immediate, immediately getting

1018
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 7: this sort of stuff. Despite spending more money on higher

1019
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 7: education than any other country, schools are quote turning our

1020
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 7: students into communists and terrorists and sympathize of many many

1021
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 7: different dimensions. What does that even mean. They're sympathizing with

1022
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 7: the alternate dimensions, you know, the oh I see the

1023
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 7: near universe version. They're gaining too much sympathy. Yeah, as

1024
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 7: well as turning into communists and terrorists.

1025
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 2: To be fair, he is right that like one of

1026
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: the areas where you will find like the the few whole. No,

1027
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 2: actually Twitter is the other area, unreconstructed Marxist leninists.

1028
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 7: He's in the Academy that it's there and on x

1029
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 7: dot com formerly known as Twitter. So to combat this

1030
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 7: communist and savage and g hottest incursion into universities, Trump

1031
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 7: is proposing something quote unquote dramatically different. His plan is

1032
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 7: to seize quote billions and billions unquote of dollars through taxes,

1033
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 7: finds in lawsuits against quote excessively large private university endowments unquote,

1034
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 7: and use that money to quote endow a new institution

1035
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,839
Speaker 7: called the American Academy unquote.

1036
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 2: That's already the American Academy's already. But is he spending

1037
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 2: it with an E or or it's why? Like no,

1038
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 2: it's why, Okay, So it's a place not like the institution.

1039
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 7: So the American Academy will seek to quote make a

1040
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 7: truly world class education avaiable to every American free of charge,

1041
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 7: without adding a single dime to the federal debt. And

1042
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 7: then to do this, quote, the institution will gather an

1043
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 7: entire universe of the highest quality educational content unquote. And

1044
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 7: I love the phrase educational content.

1045
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this sounds like the short prayer you

1046
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 2: videos that.

1047
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,959
Speaker 7: Yeah, what are you like? You're starting to You're starting

1048
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 7: to suspect certain things, right like, Yeah, what do you

1049
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 7: think the American Academy is going to be here? Based

1050
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 7: on the limited information you have?

1051
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't seem like a credible university, does it.

1052
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 2: It seems to look like if you're.

1053
00:49:58,719 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 7: World made, that's education.

1054
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 2: Maybe it's what Barry Weiss is doing in Texas, you know,

1055
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 2: maybe she's gonna be helming the American Academy. It sounds

1056
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 2: like Jordan Peterston's Grift University.

1057
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 7: It's a world class education after you gather an entire

1058
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,720
Speaker 7: universe of the highest quality educational content. So this content,

1059
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 7: Trump claims will quote cover the full spectrum of human

1060
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 7: knowledge and skills and make that material available to every

1061
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 7: American citizen online for free. Unquote that's just a library.

1062
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 7: Where he's describing as a library, we already have those,

1063
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 7: not quite the content. It's not just a library because

1064
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:46,280
Speaker 7: quote the Academy will utilize the latest breakthrough in computing unquote,

1065
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 7: as well as study groups, mentors, and industry partners to

1066
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 7: provide a truly quote top tier education option for the people.

1067
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 7: For the next part, I have to do it in

1068
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 7: the Trump voice, because otherwise the grammar won't make any sense.

1069
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 7: Whether you want lectures or an ancient history, or an

1070
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 7: introduction to financial accounting or a trading at a skilled trade,

1071
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 7: the goal will be to deliver it and get it

1072
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 7: done properly. I love the phrase whether you want lectures

1073
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 7: or an ancient history?

1074
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like you can give yourself a history, like

1075
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 2: you could go back to Samaria and it'sert yourself.

1076
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 7: Whether you want lectures or an ancient history, or an

1077
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 7: introduction to financial accounting or training in a skilled trade.

1078
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 7: So you will be able to learn all of this

1079
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,439
Speaker 7: online for free, getting a truly topp tier education, which

1080
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 7: sounds like okay, But Trump specified that your American Academy

1081
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 7: education will be quote unquote strictly non political unquote.

1082
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 2: Good.

1083
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 7: I'm really excited to learn an ancient history from a

1084
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 7: strictly non political standpoint. That's that's great.

1085
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 2: We can't discuss the formation of the state because there

1086
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 2: will be a political stance.

1087
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 7: Furthermore, Donald Trump promised that at American Academy quote, there

1088
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,760
Speaker 7: will be no wokeness or jihadism allowed. None of that's

1089
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 7: going to be allowed.

1090
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 2: How will I teach without jihadism? My personal jahad is

1091
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 2: is to educate the youth of America, But now I

1092
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 2: can't by taking it.

1093
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 7: Sorry, not allowed, not allowed, going to Trump, very sad,

1094
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 7: very sad. So this plan also seeks to help the

1095
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 7: forty million Americans who have some college education but no

1096
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 7: complete degree, by granting credit for past course work at

1097
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 7: quote unquote legacy institutions and giving Americans quote the chance

1098
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 7: to complete your education at the American Academy for free

1099
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 7: and much more quickly than is now possible or available unquote.

1100
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,760
Speaker 7: So now, if there weren't red flags going off already,

1101
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 7: there certainly should be now with that last line, more

1102
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 7: quickly that is now possible or available, which is which

1103
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 7: is a classic tell of an online university scam. Now,

1104
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 7: the exact details of how the American academy is supposed

1105
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 7: to work. Are kind of unclear, probably because it hasn't

1106
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:16,280
Speaker 7: been figured out yet because it's bush and quite possibly

1107
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 7: never will get figured out.

1108
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, many such cases and Agenda forty seven as it

1109
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 2: turns out.

1110
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 7: But Trump University founder Donald Trump did say that his

1111
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 7: American Academy proposal does plan to quote compete directly with

1112
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 7: existing and very costly four year university systems by granting

1113
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:39,720
Speaker 7: students degree credentials that the US government and all federal

1114
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 7: contractors will henceforth recognize.

1115
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 2: The other, recognize them as fucking useless.

1116
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 7: Not degrees. Degree credentials. Yeah, degree credentials.

1117
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 2: Gonna put my degree credential up on my wall.

1118
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 7: This is just another Trump University, an uncredited scale that

1119
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 7: Trump is hoping to prop up with the federal government,

1120
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 7: this time instead of his business empire. It's it's not

1121
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 7: it's it's not his entire thing, isn't it, Like, yes,

1122
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,479
Speaker 7: that is the whole thing. It's not real. It's not real.

1123
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 7: He's he's framing this plan as a quote unquote revolution

1124
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 7: in higher education that will provide life changing opportunities by

1125
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 7: awarding American citizens with quote the full and complete equilovent

1126
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:26,280
Speaker 7: of a bachelor's degree.

1127
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 2: I love it when he just fucking sends it on

1128
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,359
Speaker 2: there's gonna be one in my in my episode, which

1129
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 2: you're here later this week, when he just cannot say

1130
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 2: the word film, and I love that he doesn't fucking try.

1131
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 2: He just he just owns it.

1132
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 7: The full and complete equivalent. That's not neither. That's neither

1133
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 7: full nor complete if it's an equivalent anyway. Trump Trump

1134
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 7: ends this video with an eloquent quote, enjoy it, learn

1135
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 7: from it, and thank you, which is just.

1136
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to finish you on my legsures that way,

1137
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 2: and then I'll do like a smoke puff and just disappear.

1138
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 7: So yeah, this is this is the first plan to

1139
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 7: save American education. That sounds great. I cannot wait to

1140
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 7: get a fully complete equivalent the bachelor's degree credential. Very

1141
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 7: very cool.

1142
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, wonderful stuff.

1143
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 7: But do you know what isn't a scam?

1144
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 3: James?

1145
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 2: Can we say that, like I we might be absolute sure.

1146
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 7: I trust my life on every single product and or

1147
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 7: service that follows this musical sting we are back. Do not,

1148
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 7: I repeat, do not send me any of the advertisers

1149
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 7: that just aired. I don't care what they are. My

1150
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 7: life is indebted. I don't care. I don't care.

1151
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 2: You can send them to you can send them to Sophie.

1152
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 2: Her Twitter is at I right, okay.

1153
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 7: I write, okay, Senator Sophie.

1154
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 6: All right.

1155
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 7: So while this Trump University, too will remain uncredited. Donald Trump,

1156
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 7: creator of the Donald Trump board game that did not

1157
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 7: sell very well in nineteen eighty what, yeah, didn't you? Yeah,

1158
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 7: creator of the Donald Trump board game.

1159
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 2: Yeah? Wow, okay, is it like monopoly? But you just

1160
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 2: look lie and generate.

1161
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 5: I didn't.

1162
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:30,879
Speaker 7: I didn't look too far into it for the bit.

1163
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:32,359
Speaker 7: I'm gonna be honest here.

1164
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 2: This is yah. Disappointed. I was ready to go to

1165
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 2: deep dive.

1166
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 7: But Donald Trump also plans to attack the current accreditation

1167
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 7: system for being run by a communist scourge, which leads

1168
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 7: us to our second Agenda forty seven, topic titled quote

1169
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 7: protecting students from the radical Left and Marxist maniacs infecting

1170
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 7: educational institutions. But I believe he's talking about you, James.

1171
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is ironic. I'm an akiss, not a Marxist.

1172
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 7: You're not an artist maniac?

1173
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 2: No, No, sadly, not many such cases, but I do

1174
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 2: make them read the Communist Manifesto in my one oh

1175
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 2: one class.

1176
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:12,240
Speaker 7: It's okay, it's okay.

1177
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 2: You got to read it. You got to it. It's

1178
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 2: something you should emerge from history education having read.

1179
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 7: So, Trump starts for talking about how quote unquote academics

1180
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 7: are quote obsessed with indoctrinating America's youth at colleges and

1181
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 7: universities while charging a ballooning tuition fee. Trump claims to

1182
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 7: have a quote unquote secret weapon that he will use

1183
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 7: to quote reclaim our once great educational institutions from the

1184
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 7: radical left, the college accreditation system. It's called accreditation for

1185
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 7: a reason. It's called accreditation for a reason. He never

1186
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 7: extravolates on that. I genuinely don't. I can't fathom what

1187
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 7: I think he means. That could go in so many directions.

1188
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 7: There's no way to know. There's no way to know.

1189
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 2: It just leaves a hanging.

1190
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 7: So Trump explains that quote accreditors are supposed to ensure

1191
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 7: that schools are not ripping off students and taxpayers, but

1192
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 7: they have failed totally unquote, which is not really what

1193
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 7: college accreditors do. Both government run and private accreditation organizations

1194
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 7: exist to develop criteria and CONDUCTI valuations to ensure educational

1195
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 7: quality and authorize if a school qualifies for student aid

1196
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 7: programs from the Department of Education. That's generally what accreditation

1197
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 7: institutions do. They don't look out for if students are

1198
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 7: being ripped off, like that's not really their role, but whatever.

1199
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 7: So upon returning to sixteen hundred Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, DC,

1200
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 7: Donald Trump promised that he will quote fire the radical

1201
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 7: left accreditors that have allowed our colleges to become dominated

1202
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 7: by Marxist maniacs and lunatics. So he believes that there's

1203
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 7: like communists that are running the accreditation system and that's

1204
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 7: what's currently ruining colleges. That is his belief.

1205
00:58:57,800 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 2: They come in, they sit at the back, and this

1206
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 2: is the right. The little book has to be read,

1207
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 2: and then we have a criticism circle afterwards where they

1208
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 2: check how many marked references you've made in your lecture.

1209
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 7: So after sending all these communists to the goolag, Trump

1210
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 7: will then begin to quote accept applications for newer creditors.

1211
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 7: Now it's unclear if he's talking about just like the

1212
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 7: public or private sector here, but these newer creditors will

1213
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 7: quote impose real standards and colleges once again, and once

1214
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 7: and for all. Now what such standards you ask? Thank you?

1215
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 7: James Wells. Trump gave us a handy little list which includes,

1216
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 7: like some of the more average conservative to libertarian esque

1217
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 7: positions like protecting free speech, eliminating wasteful administrative positions that

1218
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 7: drive up costs, offering options for accelerated and low cost degrees,

1219
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 7: providing meaningful job placement and career services, and implementing college

1220
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 7: entrants and exit exams to prove that students are actually

1221
00:59:57,240 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 7: learning or getting their money's worth, right, Which all that

1222
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,479
Speaker 7: sounds like kind of standard politician talk, right, It's like, okay, sure,

1223
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 7: but Trumpe did mention a few other standards that will

1224
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 7: be imposed once again by this new generation of accreditors,

1225
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 7: which will also include quote defending the American tradition and

1226
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 7: Western civilization and removing all Marxist diversity, equity and inclusion

1227
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 7: be a regrets unquote. So i dei the right's new

1228
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 7: favorite boogieyman that's responsible from everything from rising university costs

1229
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 7: to botched surgeries, aviation incidents, and boat's malfunctioning in cladding

1230
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 7: with bridges. It is it is the villain of the

1231
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 7: of the conservative right at the moment, and so because

1232
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 7: this has been a trending topic among conservatives, Trump's trying

1233
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 7: to jump on this DEI train, which sounds incredibly dangerous

1234
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:53,919
Speaker 7: from their perspective because this term he probably never even

1235
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 7: heard of before, like a year ago.

1236
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 2: Like, come on, no, I don't think he. I don't

1237
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 2: think he implemented DII in his business institutions. I think

1238
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 2: this is. Yeah, it's a word they say when they

1239
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 2: can't say slurs. They think they've found a funny workaround

1240
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 2: to saying slurs.

1241
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 7: I mean, that's this thing with like every time someone

1242
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 7: says like like critical race theory, woke or DEI, they're

1243
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:16,919
Speaker 7: really just trying to say a slur. And if and if,

1244
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 7: if you replace those three terms with just a slur,

1245
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 7: their sentences make a lot more sense because the way

1246
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 7: they use the word woke does not mean anything in

1247
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 7: a lot of cases. But if you just replace it

1248
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 7: for a racial slur, you're like, oh, now I can

1249
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 7: understand what they're saying. It's it's it's a handy trick

1250
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 7: that really is not fun to think about.

1251
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, or subtle.

1252
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 7: As a part of this DEI frenzy. Trump has promised

1253
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 7: to quote direct the Department of Education to pursue federal

1254
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 7: civil rights cases against the schools they continue to engage

1255
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 7: in racial discrimination unquote, which also kind of calls upon

1256
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 7: like older, like affirmative action complaints that conservatives have been

1257
01:01:57,520 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 7: talking about for years.

1258
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 2: Now, That's what I wanted he was going after.

1259
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, it kind of it ties into that as well.

1260
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 7: And and Trump added that this race based discrimination quote

1261
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 7: includes discrimination against Asian Americans unquote, which is definitely invoking

1262
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:15,439
Speaker 7: that style of affirmative action conservative rhetoric from like, yeah, ten,

1263
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 7: five years ago.

1264
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, even more recent, when was that Supreme Court case?

1265
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that was that was that was just like

1266
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 2: last year Becky with the bad grades. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

1267
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 7: So beyond just threatening to sick the DOJ on woke schools,

1268
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 7: Trump also made the more specific promise that if schools

1269
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 7: quote persist in explicit unlawful discrimination under the guise of

1270
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 7: equity unquote, he will not only make sure that their

1271
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 7: endowments be taxed, but also quote, through budget reconciliation, I

1272
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 7: will advance to measure to have them find up to

1273
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 7: the entire amount of their endowment. Quote.

1274
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 2: Did he realize that, no, no schools have endowments, Like I

1275
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 2: teach you the community college, We ain't got an endowment.

1276
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 7: No, he's I'm sure that he's gonna go after like

1277
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 7: the Harvard endowment. Yeah, that's gonna track. Yeah, I have

1278
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 7: fun finding fifty billion dollars from Harvard. That's totally gonna happen.

1279
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 7: But his plan after he seizes these endowments quote, a

1280
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 7: portion of the seized funds will then be used as

1281
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 7: restitution for victims of these illegal and unjust policies, policies

1282
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 7: that hurt our country so badly. Colleges have gotten hundreds

1283
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 7: of billions of dollars from hard working taxpayers, and now

1284
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 7: we're gonna get this anti American insanity out of our

1285
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 7: institutions once and for all. So that's cool, Like, okay, sure,

1286
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,439
Speaker 7: you're gonna use this to pay back white people who've

1287
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 7: been if we've been denied college admission. Okay, cool, that

1288
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 7: sounds like a winning electoral strategy.

1289
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 2: You have finally the reparations people.

1290
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know who's had it too hard

1291
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 7: for too long?

1292
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 2: Chance it's white people who didn't make it through college garrets.

1293
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 7: Uh, it's it's because they didn't get it's because they

1294
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 7: didn't go to Yale. Now they have to go to Princeton.

1295
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, embarrassing, right, why would you even bother?

1296
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:12,840
Speaker 7: So it's but it's not just colleges. Trump also threatened

1297
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 7: to quote cut federal funding for any school or program

1298
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 7: publishing critical race theory, gender ideology, or other inappropriate racial, sexual,

1299
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 7: or political content onto our children. We're not going to

1300
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:27,280
Speaker 7: allow it to happen, folks.

1301
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 2: Very cool, Great, Yeah, I used to teach a gender

1302
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:33,600
Speaker 2: sociology course forward to defund defund. Yeah, yeah, I know

1303
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 2: we're going down fight together. We're gonna do that shit.

1304
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 2: They will have to fight that way in don't say

1305
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 2: that on air.

1306
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:43,000
Speaker 7: You can't say that you're gonna turn your community college

1307
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:46,959
Speaker 7: into a you can't say that. So, yeah, he's gonna

1308
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 7: go after school, regular schools, both colleges, universities, regular schools.

1309
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 7: If there's doing any any CRT gender ideology, you can

1310
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 7: tell that some of this was written like a year

1311
01:04:56,840 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 7: and a half ago, because no, no one's talking about

1312
01:04:58,520 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 7: critical race theory anymore.

1313
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah he missed it. But like, can you

1314
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 2: imagine teaching a sociology course and just being like, yeah,

1315
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 2: we're gonna skip past race and gender.

1316
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 7: Oh so politics past politics.

1317
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a man who himself went to Like,

1318
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 2: did he go to Harvard or Yale?

1319
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 7: No, he did not go to either. He was sent

1320
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 7: to a military school by his father when he was

1321
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 7: thirteen for being annoying. Then he think he went to

1322
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 7: a school in Pennsylvania, respect And then what other school

1323
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 7: did he go to?

1324
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 2: Critical respect to his dad?

1325
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 7: He yeah, he went to the New York Military Academy.

1326
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 7: That he went to Fordham University and then the University

1327
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 7: of Pennsylvania's Wharton School.

1328
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Wharton Business School. Yeah, not a real graduate degree.

1329
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 7: So the reason why this is also evils because Trump

1330
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 7: thinks that a lot of this stuff is basically forming

1331
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 7: a new religion. All this woke stuff. Quote, the Marxism

1332
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 7: being preached in our schools is totally hostile to Judeo

1333
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 7: Christian teachings, and in many ways it resemblesablishing a new religion.

1334
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 7: Can let that happen. I can't let that happen.

1335
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 2: One thing we take a big swing at is Judeo

1336
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 2: Christian institutions.

1337
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 7: To combat this growing threat of religious Marxism.

1338
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 2: His administration, I'm sorry, I can't, I cannot wrote.

1339
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 7: Oh, his administration will quote aggressively pursue potential violations of

1340
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:29,280
Speaker 7: the establishment clause and the free exercise clause of the Constitution.

1341
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 7: That's very simple.

1342
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 2: I think you quite understand before we met of that

1343
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 2: that luckily we do Russian Orthodox Marxism at my university,

1344
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 2: so we should say, god, yeah, well a lot of beards.

1345
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 7: So and then, in kind of like a laundry list

1346
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 7: of policies and talking points, Trump pledged to quote veto

1347
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 7: the sinister effort to weaponize civics education, we will keep

1348
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:58,680
Speaker 7: men out of women's sports and will create a new

1349
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 7: credentialing body that'll be the gold standard anywhere in the

1350
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 7: world to certified teachers who embrace patriotic values, support a

1351
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:07,480
Speaker 7: way of life, and understand that their job is not

1352
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 7: to indoctrinate children, but very simply to educate them.

1353
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 2: No one's ever done. No one has ever created a

1354
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 2: credentialing body for patriotic teachers who embrace quote our way

1355
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 2: of life before, it's never been done.

1356
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 7: Their efforts to weaponize civics.

1357
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, just imagine him looking for the Civics bill.

1358
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:30,919
Speaker 7: Yeah, very funny, So probably distract him for a while.

1359
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 2: Stuff, I'm doing some actual terrible shit.

1360
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:35,800
Speaker 7: A little bit with that last part was like indoctrinating children,

1361
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 7: And this next little bit will kind of demonstrate how

1362
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 7: stuff like QAnon didn't simply go away like some have postulated. Instead,

1363
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 7: it's just been absorbed into the fabric of American politics.

1364
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:49,840
Speaker 7: No longer does the boogeyman have to be a DNC

1365
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 7: pedophilic elite. Now it's been territorialized and destroyed and mutated

1366
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 7: into just being any school teacher and or like every

1367
01:07:57,080 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 7: trans person right or God forbid a transgender school, which

1368
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 7: is like the prime evil of the current conservative society.

1369
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 7: And Trump promises on day one of his new presidency

1370
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 7: he will quote begin to find and remove the radicals, zealots,

1371
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 7: and Marxists who have infiltrated the Department of Education, and

1372
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 7: that also includes others. And you know who you are,

1373
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 7: because we are not going to allow anyone to hurt

1374
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 7: our children. You are, you know who you are. So

1375
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 7: this is the weaponization of nearly eight years of QAnon rhetoric, right,

1376
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 7: that is, that has grown past the ney to actually

1377
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:39,320
Speaker 7: invoke q and on plus the two years of the

1378
01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 7: Republican Party, The Daily wire and limbs of TikTok working

1379
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:45,919
Speaker 7: to shift q Andon's kind of disgrace and unfocused momentum

1380
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 7: towards a manufactured continuation in the form of this transgender

1381
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 7: groomer craze that's taking over American schools. Quote Joe Biden

1382
01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 7: has given these lunatics unchecked power. I will have them

1383
01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 7: fired and escorted from the building, and I will tell

1384
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 7: Kung any appropriations bill I sign must reaffirm the president's

1385
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 7: ability to remove defined employees from the job. It's all

1386
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:09,520
Speaker 7: about our children.

1387
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 2: Ute just imagining an executive order to remove someone from

1388
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 2: their lecture.

1389
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 7: I am going to be signing an executive order on

1390
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:32,800
Speaker 7: this podcast. To go to another ad break, we are

1391
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 7: back and thank you James Berg for reaffirming my ability

1392
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 7: to remove defiant ads.

1393
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:41,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, why you were all away that several federal

1394
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 2: agents came in and in certain an ad break.

1395
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:46,680
Speaker 7: In this last section here, we're going to return to

1396
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:51,080
Speaker 7: Trump's conception that entire alternatives are needed to America's broken,

1397
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 7: woke school system, now focusing on the grade school side

1398
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 7: rather than just the post secondary. So in this vein,

1399
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 7: Trump is courting the growing now number of homeschooling families, though,

1400
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 7: according to a Washington Post poll from last year, Republican

1401
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:08,360
Speaker 7: homeschoolers outnumbered Democrat ones two to one, so he kind

1402
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 7: of already has the majority of that vote, but still

1403
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,400
Speaker 7: something he is going after. According to Trump, ever since

1404
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:17,920
Speaker 7: quote the China virus, America has seen an estimated thirty

1405
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:22,759
Speaker 7: percent increase in homeschool enrollment unquote. It's just a funny

1406
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 7: term as homeschool in roll. Yeah, yeah, just going to

1407
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 7: the homeschool to enroll. I'm going to be enrolling at homeschool.

1408
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:32,719
Speaker 7: Very funny an if elective president for a second time,

1409
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:36,639
Speaker 7: he will do everything to support quote parents who make

1410
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 7: the courageous choice of homes school unquote. Again, the way

1411
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 7: he uses home the word homeschool is unlike anyone else

1412
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:45,720
Speaker 7: has ever heard.

1413
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 2: Talk.

1414
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:50,160
Speaker 7: It is a very odd use of the English language.

1415
01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, he doesn't seem to understand parts of speech like no,

1416
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:54,400
Speaker 2: just what won no.

1417
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,000
Speaker 7: And Trump said he'll work to ensure that homeschoolers will

1418
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:59,799
Speaker 7: be entitled to all the benefits available to non homeschool students,

1419
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:02,919
Speaker 7: able to participate in athletic programs, clubs, after school activities,

1420
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:07,400
Speaker 7: educational trips, and more. He pledged that in his next term,

1421
01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:10,320
Speaker 7: he will allow five to nine education savings accounts to

1422
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:15,760
Speaker 7: be used for quote costs associated with homeschool education. A

1423
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:18,880
Speaker 7: current five to nine savings accounts allow families to withdraw

1424
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:20,880
Speaker 7: up to ten thousand dollars a year to spend tax

1425
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,920
Speaker 7: free on tuition for private schools, which Trump called a

1426
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 7: quote tremendous win for his school choice, very important school choice.

1427
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 7: To remember that term unquote, that term never comes up

1428
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:37,600
Speaker 7: again in this video. Great, So Trump is pledging to

1429
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 7: expand this tuition savings program to include homeschooling families as well,

1430
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:45,640
Speaker 7: with a very unknown system of checks and balances to

1431
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 7: determine what exactly qualifies as costs related to homeschooling. And

1432
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:54,880
Speaker 7: often homeschooling is used by abusive parents to just have

1433
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 7: kids do free labor around the house, and they try

1434
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 7: to make it count as like education. And like if

1435
01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 7: you're now allowing parents to put money to a savings

1436
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:05,960
Speaker 7: account to remove ten thousand a year tax free spent

1437
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:08,800
Speaker 7: on education, like what does what does that mean? Does

1438
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 7: that mean just curriculum? Does that mean like household supplies?

1439
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:17,160
Speaker 7: Because that's being put towards their homeschool because they're schooling

1440
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 7: at home. Like very very unclear, and it's kind of

1441
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 7: refers back to some of the general problems homeschooling, especially

1442
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:26,320
Speaker 7: in like conservative homeschooling or just as a large way

1443
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:29,160
Speaker 7: to abuse children, not in like the groomer way that

1444
01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:31,000
Speaker 7: right wing people talk about. It's like, no, you're just

1445
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 7: literally like limiting your kids' access to the outside world

1446
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:35,680
Speaker 7: because you think if they go outside they're going to

1447
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 7: turn gay. So but even if oh sorry, there's there's

1448
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:43,200
Speaker 7: one one final quote from this homeschooling video, which are

1449
01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 7: just fucking phenomenal to every homeschool family. I will be

1450
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:53,599
Speaker 7: your champion. Do not vote Democrat. They're looking to destroy you.

1451
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:56,439
Speaker 7: If you don't mind me saying that Joe Biden can't

1452
01:12:56,479 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 7: put two sentences together and yet he's looking to destroy you.

1453
01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:02,799
Speaker 7: Do not vote Democrats. Do not vote for crooked Joe.

1454
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:12,599
Speaker 7: Vote for honest Donald, Thank you very much. It's funny

1455
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:16,479
Speaker 7: because in the video when he says vote for honest Donald,

1456
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:20,160
Speaker 7: he also starts to crack up because he knows how

1457
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 7: ridiculousness is.

1458
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:22,240
Speaker 1: God.

1459
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 7: Do not vote for crooked Joe, Vote for honest Dundald,

1460
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:31,280
Speaker 7: thank you very much, very very cool, looking to destroy you.

1461
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:32,800
Speaker 7: If you don't mind be saying.

1462
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:35,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you don't mind me a man who rarely

1463
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:37,960
Speaker 2: asks permission to say the most extame shit.

1464
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:41,880
Speaker 7: So, even if parents are not choosing to homeschool, Trump

1465
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:45,120
Speaker 7: wants to let voters know that he will fight for parents' rights.

1466
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 7: Which isn't quite a dog whistle, but it does refer

1467
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:51,479
Speaker 7: to a very specific style of patriarchal rhetoric popularized by

1468
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 7: hyper religious conservative think tanks. I propose an extremely narrow

1469
01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:57,760
Speaker 7: version of how the American family should operate within society.

1470
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 7: More on this later. But so, what can Trump do

1471
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:03,479
Speaker 7: to let right wing religious parents know that he will

1472
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:06,719
Speaker 7: be their champion even in like blue states or big cities.

1473
01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 7: As much as Trump might want to be a dictator,

1474
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:12,760
Speaker 7: he doesn't have unlimited power to impose his war on

1475
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 7: wokeness in liberal cities. But Donald Trump, who was impeached

1476
01:14:16,280 --> 01:14:18,400
Speaker 7: for trying to blackmail the president of Ukraine in summer

1477
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:20,920
Speaker 7: of twenty nineteen, does have a plan. He wants to

1478
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:27,760
Speaker 7: quote implement massive funding preferences and favorable treatment unquote for

1479
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:32,120
Speaker 7: states and school districts that make four specific quote historic

1480
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:38,120
Speaker 7: reforms and education that Trump has decreed. These four specific

1481
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:43,680
Speaker 7: reforms include abolishing tenure for K through twelve teachers so

1482
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:46,839
Speaker 7: that we can quote remove bad teachers and adopt merit

1483
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:50,599
Speaker 7: pay to reward good teachers. The second is to quote

1484
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 7: drastically cut the blowed number of school administrators, including the

1485
01:14:54,200 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 7: costly and divisive and unnecessary deibureaucracy. Third to ad to

1486
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:03,680
Speaker 7: parental bill of rights that includes complete curriculum transparency in

1487
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:07,439
Speaker 7: the form of universal school choice, and lastly, quote implement

1488
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:12,040
Speaker 7: the direct election of school principles by the parents. Trump

1489
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:15,640
Speaker 7: calls this last bit the ultimate form of local control,

1490
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,320
Speaker 7: something our country has never had, or at least has

1491
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 7: not had for the last fifty years. So those are

1492
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 7: his four reform plans, which is like, yeah, you know

1493
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:27,519
Speaker 7: who's had it too easy for too long, teachers. Let's

1494
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:32,080
Speaker 7: abolish ten year adopt merit pay a disaster of a system,

1495
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:35,600
Speaker 7: cut administrative roles to put more work on teachers, have

1496
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 7: parents be able to fire fire principles by voting, and

1497
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 7: a vote to elect their own principle, and universal school

1498
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:45,640
Speaker 7: choices is actually more of a dog whistle that it

1499
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:48,720
Speaker 7: just refers to a series of like very racist, like

1500
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 7: urban planning policies to direct rich white people's funding into

1501
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:54,160
Speaker 7: a very few selected number of schools instead of where

1502
01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:56,320
Speaker 7: they actually like live and instead of the actual district

1503
01:15:56,360 --> 01:15:59,800
Speaker 7: they live in. So there's all of that, and like

1504
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:02,200
Speaker 7: what Trump keeps coming back to among all these quote

1505
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:06,520
Speaker 7: unquote reforms, it all kind of relates to complete parental dominance.

1506
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:09,400
Speaker 7: And part of this was the parental Bill of Rights,

1507
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:12,599
Speaker 7: which you've probably seen some conservatives talking about more these

1508
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 7: past few years. And this is another quote from Trump here.

1509
01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:19,800
Speaker 7: It's all about the parents for their children more than

1510
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:24,080
Speaker 7: anyone else. Parents know what their children need. And if

1511
01:16:24,120 --> 01:16:26,240
Speaker 7: you haven't heard of a parental bill of rights directly,

1512
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:28,479
Speaker 7: you most certainly have heard of one by another name

1513
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:31,519
Speaker 7: that don't say gay bill, that was a parental rights bill,

1514
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:35,240
Speaker 7: a sensibly targeting education, but these bills often end up

1515
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:38,400
Speaker 7: giving parents just complete control over every aspect of the

1516
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:41,439
Speaker 7: child's life. They dictate how children are allowed to express themselves,

1517
01:16:41,439 --> 01:16:44,000
Speaker 7: and allow parents to impose nearly any discipline or punishment.

1518
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:46,800
Speaker 7: They desire total control over what the child eats, what

1519
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:48,599
Speaker 7: they wear, what they read, what they watch, what they

1520
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:51,479
Speaker 7: see online, and what they're allowed to learn in school,

1521
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:54,639
Speaker 7: who they're allowed to socialize with. Some of these bills

1522
01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:57,880
Speaker 7: that I read through for this also bar mandatory masking

1523
01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:00,280
Speaker 7: policies and schools back when that was the thing, and

1524
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:03,599
Speaker 7: are often full of anti vax talking points and attempts

1525
01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:07,599
Speaker 7: to ban sex ed and quote unquote gender politics. As

1526
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:09,840
Speaker 7: a part of these bills, teachers in school administration are

1527
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:13,080
Speaker 7: legally required to act as parental surveillance tools to report

1528
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:15,479
Speaker 7: how a child behaves, how they socialize, how they dress,

1529
01:17:15,680 --> 01:17:17,280
Speaker 7: how they like to be referred to in who they

1530
01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:20,600
Speaker 7: are friends with. This includes outing children as gay or

1531
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 7: trands to parents if anyone in the school suspects that

1532
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:27,479
Speaker 7: the student has a non heterosexual sexual orientation or is

1533
01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 7: acting in any way inconsistent with their assigned gender at birth.

1534
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:34,320
Speaker 7: These types of bills often have other consequences as well.

1535
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:36,400
Speaker 7: In states where some of these bills have passed, like

1536
01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:39,720
Speaker 7: North Carolina, due to legal risks, some elementary schools have

1537
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 7: been unable to talk about or give out educational materials

1538
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:45,920
Speaker 7: on consent or how to identify when child sexual abuse

1539
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:49,160
Speaker 7: is taking place as a part of the Safe Touch programs.

1540
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:51,840
Speaker 7: These programs are basically unable to happen because teachers will

1541
01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:55,800
Speaker 7: now be held personally legally liable if any parent objects

1542
01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:59,479
Speaker 7: to this material so parental rights bills have been signed

1543
01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:02,759
Speaker 7: into law in six states over the past two legislative years,

1544
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:06,720
Speaker 7: famously Florida, as well as Arizona, Georgia, Louisiana, Iowa, and

1545
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:09,600
Speaker 7: North Carolina. Since then, similar bills have been introduced in

1546
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:11,840
Speaker 7: more than twenty five states, many of which have passed

1547
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:15,360
Speaker 7: through at least one chamber. Some of them are still

1548
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:18,200
Speaker 7: in the process of either passing through a second chamber

1549
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:21,479
Speaker 7: or being signed by the governor. I'm gonna end with

1550
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 7: two quotes here from Trump that kind of reiterate this

1551
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:28,880
Speaker 7: parental dominance thing that he's really pushing for. And also

1552
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:31,439
Speaker 7: people like Ronda Santis have been pushing for Ted Cruz

1553
01:18:31,880 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 7: a lot of writing politicians quote as the saying goes,

1554
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:38,200
Speaker 7: personnel is policy. And at the end of the day,

1555
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:41,960
Speaker 7: if we have pink haired communists teaching our kids, we

1556
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:45,439
Speaker 7: have a major problem. When I'm president, we will put

1557
01:18:45,479 --> 01:18:48,280
Speaker 7: parents back in charge and give them the finals say.

1558
01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:51,960
Speaker 7: We will get back to teaching reading, writing, and math

1559
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 7: called arithmetic, and we will kill our kids the high

1560
01:18:56,640 --> 01:19:03,280
Speaker 7: quality pro American education they deserve. They're gonna teach you

1561
01:19:03,439 --> 01:19:05,120
Speaker 7: math called arithmetic.

1562
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:08,320
Speaker 2: Magnificent, amazing.

1563
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:12,040
Speaker 7: We may spend the most. But we're going to be

1564
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:16,360
Speaker 7: tops in education no matter, no matter where you go

1565
01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:20,240
Speaker 7: anywhere in the world, We're gonna be tops in education.

1566
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 2: There will be no bottoms in the American education system

1567
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 2: going forward.

1568
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:28,200
Speaker 7: So this is this is Donald Trump, the second host

1569
01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:30,759
Speaker 7: of the TV show The Apprentice, who's run for public office.

1570
01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:35,680
Speaker 7: This is his plan for education. Doctor James Stout, how

1571
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:38,800
Speaker 7: do you feel about about these education reform proposals.

1572
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:41,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't seem like a weird idea,

1573
01:19:41,320 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 2: if I'm being honest, Having having listened to it, I

1574
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:47,599
Speaker 2: think perhaps he hasn't got the sharpest grasp on what's

1575
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:50,719
Speaker 2: going on in the education system. The reason we have

1576
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:55,559
Speaker 2: education is because your parents don't necessarily know what's best

1577
01:19:55,560 --> 01:19:57,240
Speaker 2: for you, right, Like your.

1578
01:19:57,080 --> 01:19:59,120
Speaker 7: Parents can't be an expert in everything.

1579
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:02,000
Speaker 2: Yes, so some of us go and get PhDs so

1580
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:06,040
Speaker 2: we can, and then we teach your people how the

1581
01:20:06,080 --> 01:20:09,719
Speaker 2: important things about that like you, by definition, your parents

1582
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:13,479
Speaker 2: cannot fulfill all the roles in an education system fulfills and.

1583
01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:18,160
Speaker 7: Like unlike pink haired communists who have complete who have

1584
01:20:18,200 --> 01:20:20,720
Speaker 7: complete total control over every aspect of what a child

1585
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:21,240
Speaker 7: should learn.

1586
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:23,840
Speaker 2: It's one of the things when you enter the university,

1587
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:26,240
Speaker 2: you know, like they did a tuberculosis test and then

1588
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:28,599
Speaker 2: they pass you a pink hair dye and I mean

1589
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:31,320
Speaker 2: you get a nose piercing as well.

1590
01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:34,080
Speaker 7: A lot of this is very much reminiscent of like

1591
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:38,080
Speaker 7: the the fears of like communist education that you see

1592
01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:41,439
Speaker 7: in like the nineteen thirties. How there's a lot of

1593
01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:44,759
Speaker 7: political a lot of political tension trying to be raised

1594
01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:48,520
Speaker 7: over the fear that there's communists teaching you in universities

1595
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:49,080
Speaker 7: and schools.

1596
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because at the same time.

1597
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:53,839
Speaker 7: Like Frankfurt school style stuff.

1598
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:58,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I've written a lot about like anarchist ideals,

1599
01:20:58,439 --> 01:21:01,439
Speaker 2: educational ideals rights at the same time, they were anarchists

1600
01:21:01,479 --> 01:21:03,280
Speaker 2: in Spain being like, you know, we should do we

1601
01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:05,320
Speaker 2: should do all our classes in the forest. Let's just

1602
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:08,680
Speaker 2: go out into the forest. Or absolutely there was a

1603
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:11,200
Speaker 2: school by the sea where they talked kids like they

1604
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:14,160
Speaker 2: were just having this incredible utopian education dream, which in

1605
01:21:14,200 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 2: many ways we still haven't adapted to some of the

1606
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:21,439
Speaker 2: things that that really could offer, and instead, yeah, we're

1607
01:21:21,479 --> 01:21:23,960
Speaker 2: having this McCarthyism Part two.

1608
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:28,719
Speaker 7: Well, great, that is Trump's plan for education. In case,

1609
01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:31,599
Speaker 7: in case you didn't know, so watch out for those

1610
01:21:31,640 --> 01:21:34,520
Speaker 7: pink cared communists. Keep an eye out for any parental

1611
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:37,800
Speaker 7: bill of rights being proposed in your state. And it

1612
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:41,760
Speaker 7: is probably has little little to do with actually protecting

1613
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:46,840
Speaker 7: children and more to do with making parents just complete

1614
01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:50,280
Speaker 7: dominating force and controlling every aspect of their child's life.

1615
01:21:50,439 --> 01:21:52,200
Speaker 7: And I mean the other sins we're thinking about this,

1616
01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:56,280
Speaker 7: it's like it removes access to for kids to talk

1617
01:21:56,360 --> 01:21:58,920
Speaker 7: about things that they may be upset.

1618
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:02,559
Speaker 2: About, and access to mandated reporters, like exactly, a mandated

1619
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:06,120
Speaker 2: reporter like this seems to exactly it's away from that exactly.

1620
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:09,280
Speaker 7: And and I mean the idea that that that schools

1621
01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:11,880
Speaker 7: are going to be legally required to out a child

1622
01:22:11,960 --> 01:22:16,280
Speaker 7: if he's if they're acting like perceived to be deviant

1623
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:19,800
Speaker 7: in some like gender sexual way. Like all of these

1624
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:24,400
Speaker 7: things are just ways to enable parental abuse in a

1625
01:22:24,479 --> 01:22:26,839
Speaker 7: variety of like ways that are explicit and non explicit.

1626
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:29,519
Speaker 7: And it's it's it's it's it's quite it's quite upsetting.

1627
01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:32,880
Speaker 7: And that's the that's the thing that conservatives are are

1628
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:34,960
Speaker 7: currently trying to push for. This is a big topic.

1629
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:37,360
Speaker 7: This stuff was talking about in the Republican primaries that

1630
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:40,760
Speaker 7: were completely useless, constantly stuff like this is something this

1631
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:43,439
Speaker 7: is referred to while invoking the sphere of like this

1632
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:46,840
Speaker 7: pink haired transgender communist teacher, which is currently like the

1633
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:50,000
Speaker 7: biggest threat to America according to most conservatives.

1634
01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:52,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're taking us down from the inside.

1635
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:56,040
Speaker 7: That and jihadism, which are probably linked somehow.

1636
01:22:56,800 --> 01:23:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think, Well it's the pink head jahttiest famous.

1637
01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:05,120
Speaker 2: Well that isn't for us today. What are we going

1638
01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:08,440
Speaker 2: to be learning about next for Agenda forty seven games, Well,

1639
01:23:08,439 --> 01:23:11,160
Speaker 2: we're going to be learning next about immigration. Don Donald

1640
01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:13,240
Speaker 2: Trump's border policies. Many of you will be shocked to

1641
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:17,000
Speaker 2: hear that they're not very good. And well, I have

1642
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:18,960
Speaker 2: two classes this summer if you're if you're in San

1643
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:20,960
Speaker 2: Diego and you want to get in before they take

1644
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:26,200
Speaker 2: the Marxism out of the education system, you can but

1645
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 2: strike now.

1646
01:23:28,120 --> 01:23:29,600
Speaker 7: I do love how I do love how much of

1647
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:30,840
Speaker 7: this is. Like do you know who's had it easy

1648
01:23:30,880 --> 01:23:33,960
Speaker 7: for too long? Transgender teachers there?

1649
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:37,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the people who are so fucking

1650
01:23:37,400 --> 01:23:40,000
Speaker 2: broke they have to have like go fundmes up for

1651
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:42,240
Speaker 2: their gender reassignment surgery.

1652
01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:45,920
Speaker 7: Great wonderful stuff. Yeah, all right, we will be back

1653
01:23:45,920 --> 01:23:48,800
Speaker 7: tomorrow to talk about Trump's border policies. Things that will

1654
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:51,360
Speaker 7: probably be totally normal, totally chill.

1655
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:54,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very very similar to fucking Faddy. They are

1656
01:23:54,600 --> 01:23:57,000
Speaker 2: similar to Biden's but that's a whole other just terpy.

1657
01:23:56,840 --> 01:23:59,360
Speaker 7: That's a whole other discussions. All right, See you are

1658
01:23:59,439 --> 01:24:00,240
Speaker 7: the other side.

1659
01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:23,960
Speaker 8: Bye, Hello, and welcome back to It could happen here

1660
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:26,360
Speaker 8: in your daily dose of the horrors that are in

1661
01:24:26,400 --> 01:24:29,720
Speaker 8: fact already happening all around us. I'm your occasional host,

1662
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:31,800
Speaker 8: Molly Conger, and I am delighted to be joined today

1663
01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:35,880
Speaker 8: by the critically acclaimed author of Culture Warlords, journalist researcher,

1664
01:24:36,120 --> 01:24:40,759
Speaker 8: sword enthusiast, Sandwich expert, and my friend Talia Lavid.

1665
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:41,599
Speaker 2: Hello.

1666
01:24:42,560 --> 01:24:45,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, I once introduced myself at an event as a

1667
01:24:45,280 --> 01:24:49,760
Speaker 9: Sandwich historian, which I think was the pinnacle of my

1668
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:54,360
Speaker 9: public speaking career. But this is a second pinnacle. Hey, Molly,

1669
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:54,920
Speaker 9: what's up?

1670
01:24:55,400 --> 01:24:57,240
Speaker 8: Thank you so much for coming on today to talk

1671
01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:00,920
Speaker 8: with me about your new book, Wild Faith, is coming

1672
01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:03,760
Speaker 8: out in just a few weeks October fifteenth.

1673
01:25:03,439 --> 01:25:06,719
Speaker 9: Right, Yeah, Wild Faith, How the Christian Right is taking

1674
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:10,679
Speaker 9: over America. Not the terrible b movie entitled Wild Faith.

1675
01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:14,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, the SEO is scrambled on that one. But the book, however,

1676
01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:17,960
Speaker 8: is very good. I mean, first of all, I just

1677
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:20,400
Speaker 8: want to say, like I've been reading the gally copy

1678
01:25:20,439 --> 01:25:22,320
Speaker 8: that you sent me, which I honestly made me feel

1679
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:25,080
Speaker 8: very fancy. I've never received a galley copy of a

1680
01:25:25,080 --> 01:25:27,120
Speaker 8: book that's not out yet before, so I felt, you know,

1681
01:25:27,720 --> 01:25:30,200
Speaker 8: kind of a kind of a broadcasting professional with my

1682
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:31,519
Speaker 8: special book.

1683
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:34,599
Speaker 9: It's an exclusive club. You're one of like five people

1684
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:35,320
Speaker 9: thus read it.

1685
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:37,640
Speaker 8: Oh my god, that is that's very exclusive.

1686
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:40,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, well it's about to become a lot less exclusive,

1687
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:42,599
Speaker 9: so feel special while you can, right.

1688
01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:44,720
Speaker 8: But I realized while I was reading it, you know,

1689
01:25:44,760 --> 01:25:47,360
Speaker 8: I have my little sticky tabs because I'm reading a

1690
01:25:47,360 --> 01:25:51,599
Speaker 8: lot more books lately, regrettably not not big time book guy.

1691
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:54,759
Speaker 8: It's always reading. I read a lot of court documents,

1692
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:56,000
Speaker 8: but I'm reading a lot of books right now for

1693
01:25:56,160 --> 01:25:58,639
Speaker 8: research for my show, and it's like my little sticky tabs.

1694
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:02,519
Speaker 8: And as in reading it, I realize I'm not marking

1695
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:04,560
Speaker 8: passages that I think would be useful for us to

1696
01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:07,559
Speaker 8: talk about in this interview. I'm just putting my little

1697
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:11,360
Speaker 8: tabs on passages that just like punched me in the gut,

1698
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:11,760
Speaker 8: you know.

1699
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:16,800
Speaker 9: Ah, sorry for punching you.

1700
01:26:16,400 --> 01:26:18,559
Speaker 8: No, but I mean, I mean with the way the

1701
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:21,080
Speaker 8: power of your words, because like a lot of what

1702
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:26,320
Speaker 8: I'm reading sucks. It's just right, Like I spent all

1703
01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:30,520
Speaker 8: day yesterday reading like twenty five year old Issues of Resistance,

1704
01:26:30,600 --> 01:26:34,519
Speaker 8: which was the quarterly magazine for a white power music label.

1705
01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:38,160
Speaker 8: So this, I mean it's a real departure, So you know,

1706
01:26:38,439 --> 01:26:41,160
Speaker 8: really just reveling in the richness of the pros and

1707
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:44,160
Speaker 8: the fact that it, you know, didn't want to kill me.

1708
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:45,840
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1709
01:26:46,240 --> 01:26:50,519
Speaker 9: No, I also have experienced neo Nazi research fatigue, and

1710
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:55,639
Speaker 9: also just like the sort of relentless grimness of flowing

1711
01:26:55,680 --> 01:26:59,519
Speaker 9: through these like fundamentally hostile texts, and also like academic texts,

1712
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:02,519
Speaker 9: which are difficult in their own way. I try to

1713
01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:07,080
Speaker 9: write accessively or just like excitingly. I find that a

1714
01:27:07,120 --> 01:27:13,160
Speaker 9: lot of especially nonfiction sort of journalism me books tend

1715
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:15,040
Speaker 9: to be a little dry, and I'm like, let's not

1716
01:27:15,120 --> 01:27:19,920
Speaker 9: be dry. Let's be like spicy, and you know, like

1717
01:27:20,320 --> 01:27:23,599
Speaker 9: form and function, Like you're more likely to be moved

1718
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:26,600
Speaker 9: by a message if you find the writing compelling.

1719
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:28,720
Speaker 10: You know, it's just you have.

1720
01:27:28,680 --> 01:27:30,120
Speaker 8: Such a way with words. I mean, you know this,

1721
01:27:30,200 --> 01:27:32,559
Speaker 8: You're a professional writer. I don't want to embarrass you

1722
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:33,040
Speaker 8: on the show.

1723
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:38,920
Speaker 9: So I'm twirling my hair like, yes, but I do

1724
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:39,800
Speaker 9: write for a living.

1725
01:27:40,120 --> 01:27:42,240
Speaker 8: If you'll indulge me, if it's legal, if the publisher

1726
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:44,559
Speaker 8: will allow this. I just want to read this passage

1727
01:27:44,560 --> 01:27:46,759
Speaker 8: from the introduction that I think is a good jumping

1728
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:48,160
Speaker 8: off point, and it was one of the first things

1729
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:50,840
Speaker 8: I marked because I was just like, oh, hell yeah,

1730
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:55,200
Speaker 8: we're getting into this. There's good words in here, okay.

1731
01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:58,920
Speaker 8: The Christian Right is a force in American politics and

1732
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:01,879
Speaker 8: has been for decades, half a century to be precise,

1733
01:28:02,240 --> 01:28:05,160
Speaker 8: during which it has steadily gained power. It started in

1734
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:08,080
Speaker 8: school rooms, continued in court rooms, and perseveres with the

1735
01:28:08,080 --> 01:28:10,040
Speaker 8: aid of people who are perfectly willing to call in

1736
01:28:10,080 --> 01:28:13,960
Speaker 8: bomb threats to hospitals and attempt to overturn elections. It

1737
01:28:14,000 --> 01:28:17,120
Speaker 8: features self proclaimed prophets with a distinct interest in politics,

1738
01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:20,960
Speaker 8: newly minted apostles with very definite ideas about spiritual battle

1739
01:28:21,000 --> 01:28:24,120
Speaker 8: and its earthly components, and pastors eager to usher in

1740
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:26,960
Speaker 8: the end of the world. Its adherents have hymns and

1741
01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:30,400
Speaker 8: devotionals and speaking tongues on occasion, and the showiest among

1742
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:32,799
Speaker 8: them are known to march their cities, blowing Ram's horns

1743
01:28:33,160 --> 01:28:35,760
Speaker 8: in an effort to topple, as Joshua once did, the

1744
01:28:35,800 --> 01:28:39,280
Speaker 8: wicked cities of the world. They have their own insular world,

1745
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:42,519
Speaker 8: their own media apparatus. They have legislators who could fire

1746
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:45,439
Speaker 8: in Brimstone's speeches from the badly carpeted rooms where laws

1747
01:28:45,439 --> 01:28:48,800
Speaker 8: are made. They have lawyers too, And in case the

1748
01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:53,439
Speaker 8: lawyers fail, there's always the promise of congregations that might

1749
01:28:53,479 --> 01:28:58,560
Speaker 8: coalesce into mobs or arsonists whose burning holy zeal coalesces

1750
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:03,920
Speaker 8: into the tiny pinpoint of a molotop cocktail. And I

1751
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:08,400
Speaker 8: knew from the intro that we were in for a ride.

1752
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:12,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's like cast of characters, the worst people ever,

1753
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:16,120
Speaker 9: but like, let's write about it in an exciting way.

1754
01:29:17,400 --> 01:29:19,599
Speaker 9: I think that one of the themes of the book

1755
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:24,800
Speaker 9: is really how these extra legal extremist movements like the

1756
01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:30,280
Speaker 9: anti abortion terror movement, and the legal framework of a

1757
01:29:30,320 --> 01:29:34,720
Speaker 9: movement work together. I actually initially heard about this from

1758
01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:37,320
Speaker 9: a friend who was talking about how, like during the

1759
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:39,760
Speaker 9: gay rights movement, you had sort of the act up

1760
01:29:40,240 --> 01:29:43,000
Speaker 9: built demonstrations, the diants and then you have the sort

1761
01:29:43,040 --> 01:29:47,160
Speaker 9: of like more respectively coded like gay people who you know,

1762
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:50,160
Speaker 9: we're talking to the government and trying to get elected

1763
01:29:50,280 --> 01:29:52,559
Speaker 9: and you know, really trying to influence research, and that

1764
01:29:52,640 --> 01:29:56,519
Speaker 9: every movement needs sort of a radical outside and then

1765
01:29:56,560 --> 01:29:59,760
Speaker 9: a respectable inside. And I'm like, oh, this works in

1766
01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:05,000
Speaker 9: like the acratic movements too, where you have like this

1767
01:30:05,280 --> 01:30:08,880
Speaker 9: you know, fringe that's burning down clinics, and then people

1768
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:13,160
Speaker 9: steadily working for fifty years to like ban abortion, and

1769
01:30:13,200 --> 01:30:16,280
Speaker 9: they have the same DNA and they have the same goals.

1770
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:19,639
Speaker 9: They just go about it differently but complement each other.

1771
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:22,639
Speaker 9: And I think that's like a running theme in the book,

1772
01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:26,440
Speaker 9: is that like you have lawyers and you have legislators,

1773
01:30:26,479 --> 01:30:29,599
Speaker 9: and then you have mobs and they're sort of all

1774
01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:33,880
Speaker 9: working towards the same goals. And that's really what we're seeing,

1775
01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:37,920
Speaker 9: I think, on the Christian Right after decades of building power.

1776
01:30:38,640 --> 01:30:40,559
Speaker 8: Yeah, one of the notes that I wrote down in

1777
01:30:40,560 --> 01:30:42,080
Speaker 8: that vein while I was reading was that you know,

1778
01:30:42,120 --> 01:30:45,200
Speaker 8: the Christian Right drives its power across a spectrum, right

1779
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,080
Speaker 8: from the clinic bomber to the senator, but it's not

1780
01:30:48,120 --> 01:30:49,640
Speaker 8: you know, you might say the two sides of the

1781
01:30:49,640 --> 01:30:52,599
Speaker 8: same coin. But to me it looks like this isn't

1782
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 8: two different spheres of power too sort of separate but

1783
01:30:56,160 --> 01:31:01,439
Speaker 8: coexisting or comorbid ideologies. They're just different numbers on the

1784
01:31:01,479 --> 01:31:04,240
Speaker 8: same dial, right, it's turning up and turning down.

1785
01:31:04,920 --> 01:31:08,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's like the hand that lights the torch and

1786
01:31:08,840 --> 01:31:11,920
Speaker 9: the hand that puts it to the you know, pire.

1787
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:17,439
Speaker 9: They perform different functions, but they have really the same goals.

1788
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:23,520
Speaker 9: And if like me, you view stripping half the populace

1789
01:31:23,560 --> 01:31:29,000
Speaker 9: of its bodily autonomy, imposing a theocracy, hounding queer people

1790
01:31:29,040 --> 01:31:35,840
Speaker 9: out of public life, slash into death as fundamentally violent goals, Yeah,

1791
01:31:35,840 --> 01:31:40,000
Speaker 9: I don't think there's like a respectable iteration necessarily. There's

1792
01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:44,280
Speaker 9: just cosplaying respectability and right.

1793
01:31:44,320 --> 01:31:46,200
Speaker 8: You can say it with a tie on on the

1794
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:48,599
Speaker 8: Senate floor, but it's it's the same message.

1795
01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:53,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, And I think so much of our media apparatus

1796
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:59,400
Speaker 9: and governmental apparatus is really sort of views like again

1797
01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:02,080
Speaker 9: this like four and function, right, Like if you are

1798
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:05,880
Speaker 9: if you say something politely, it doesn't really matter what

1799
01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:09,719
Speaker 9: you're saying, Like if you say something with a suit

1800
01:32:09,840 --> 01:32:12,559
Speaker 9: on in the register of like you know, in a

1801
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:17,400
Speaker 9: calm sort of Mike Pencian, Rush Limbaugh and decaf as

1802
01:32:17,439 --> 01:32:17,920
Speaker 9: he called.

1803
01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:18,760
Speaker 10: Himself a boy, She says.

1804
01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:20,519
Speaker 9: Did he say that, Yeah, that's what he called himself

1805
01:32:20,520 --> 01:32:24,560
Speaker 9: when he read it, did a like evangelical radio show. Yeah, no,

1806
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:26,240
Speaker 9: no matter what you say, as long as you are

1807
01:32:26,280 --> 01:32:30,160
Speaker 9: like white and you say it politely, like this is

1808
01:32:30,200 --> 01:32:33,160
Speaker 9: fundamentally sort of fine. And then if you look at

1809
01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:35,600
Speaker 9: it from you know, a step or two back, and

1810
01:32:35,600 --> 01:32:39,479
Speaker 9: you're like, no, actually, no matter how politely say it,

1811
01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:45,320
Speaker 9: this is like a violent, deeply unpopular theocratic agenda that

1812
01:32:45,479 --> 01:32:51,679
Speaker 9: like fundamentally is incompatible with multiracial democracy. I also think,

1813
01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:55,599
Speaker 9: and I keep running into this, like well meaning liberals

1814
01:32:55,600 --> 01:32:57,840
Speaker 9: being like, but isn't there a separation of church and state?

1815
01:32:57,840 --> 01:32:59,559
Speaker 9: And I'm like, I don't know. Do you fucking think

1816
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:01,400
Speaker 9: there is a in Alabama? Do you think there is

1817
01:33:01,439 --> 01:33:06,640
Speaker 9: in Arkansas? And all of these you know in Texas,

1818
01:33:06,680 --> 01:33:10,280
Speaker 9: Like all of these figures are like, we're Christians, We're

1819
01:33:10,320 --> 01:33:12,799
Speaker 9: making laws for Jesus, and.

1820
01:33:12,640 --> 01:33:15,120
Speaker 8: We have covenant marriages and we want you to too.

1821
01:33:15,320 --> 01:33:18,160
Speaker 9: Yeah, like we're gonna outlaw divorce because of God. And like,

1822
01:33:18,800 --> 01:33:22,400
Speaker 9: you know, women dying of sepsis in hospital parking lots

1823
01:33:22,439 --> 01:33:25,800
Speaker 9: is what Jesus wants and like, and I experienced this,

1824
01:33:26,120 --> 01:33:29,080
Speaker 9: I think you probably have to when you like report

1825
01:33:29,120 --> 01:33:35,320
Speaker 9: on you know, zealots and extremists, and people inevitably wind

1826
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:40,000
Speaker 9: up like measuring other people's weep by their own bushel.

1827
01:33:40,040 --> 01:33:42,839
Speaker 9: In other words, they're like, they can't really believe this stuff,

1828
01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:46,280
Speaker 9: and it's like, no, they really do. They can't really

1829
01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:48,800
Speaker 9: have these goals. First of all, they do, but also

1830
01:33:49,160 --> 01:33:52,439
Speaker 9: doesn't matter, right, I mean the question of like impact

1831
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:56,080
Speaker 9: versus intent. First of all, I think it's perfectly possible

1832
01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:57,920
Speaker 9: to be both a grifter and a true believer at

1833
01:33:57,960 --> 01:33:58,639
Speaker 9: the same time.

1834
01:33:59,040 --> 01:34:00,280
Speaker 8: That's just synergy.

1835
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:01,880
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1836
01:34:01,280 --> 01:34:06,160
Speaker 9: And also fundamentally, this is a world premis done grievance,

1837
01:34:06,320 --> 01:34:08,880
Speaker 9: where it's this idea that like the world has got

1838
01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:11,760
Speaker 9: one oh, we're on you. And so in a sense,

1839
01:34:11,800 --> 01:34:14,839
Speaker 9: grift is just like, well, you know, the world's corrupt

1840
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:18,200
Speaker 9: and I'm fighting a righteous cause, So what does it

1841
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:22,200
Speaker 9: matter the ethics that I sort of skip on along

1842
01:34:22,240 --> 01:34:22,599
Speaker 9: the way.

1843
01:34:23,120 --> 01:34:25,320
Speaker 8: I mean, once you've amped the stakes up to we're

1844
01:34:25,360 --> 01:34:28,519
Speaker 8: fighting the literal devil and everyone who's getting in my

1845
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:32,640
Speaker 8: way is animated by actual demons from hell. I mean

1846
01:34:32,680 --> 01:34:34,920
Speaker 8: the steaks couldn't be higher, so you do what you

1847
01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:35,639
Speaker 8: have to do.

1848
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:39,000
Speaker 9: Exactly, and it's this theory of power. And so then

1849
01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:42,720
Speaker 9: people sort of standing outside of that paradigm who are

1850
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:45,160
Speaker 9: not keyed into this idea of like we're in an

1851
01:34:45,160 --> 01:34:49,240
Speaker 9: ethical spiritual battle, like and we must create like a

1852
01:34:49,400 --> 01:34:53,000
Speaker 9: kingdom of Christ on earth in America to win against

1853
01:34:53,000 --> 01:34:56,560
Speaker 9: the devil, and then people outside being like, you're hypocrites,

1854
01:34:56,600 --> 01:34:59,280
Speaker 9: and it's like it's not a valid criticism to them

1855
01:34:59,280 --> 01:35:01,559
Speaker 9: because they're like, first of all, you're not like a

1856
01:35:01,640 --> 01:35:04,960
Speaker 9: Christian if you're a liberal, but also like you're not

1857
01:35:05,080 --> 01:35:09,360
Speaker 9: on our level, like we're fighting Lucifer and you're probably

1858
01:35:09,840 --> 01:35:12,800
Speaker 9: a stand like on his team if you oppose us. So,

1859
01:35:13,320 --> 01:35:18,200
Speaker 9: you know, a multitude of apparent hypocrisies can be excused

1860
01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:21,120
Speaker 9: by the idea that like this is a holy war

1861
01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:26,800
Speaker 9: and in war there's like all kinds of avert behavior.

1862
01:35:26,439 --> 01:35:28,600
Speaker 8: That's doing holy war crimes.

1863
01:35:29,120 --> 01:35:29,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, exactly.

1864
01:35:30,280 --> 01:35:32,160
Speaker 9: I mean this is why, for example, you see a

1865
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:36,599
Speaker 9: lot of like prominent female figures from Philish Lafley, you know,

1866
01:35:36,680 --> 01:35:39,800
Speaker 9: in the seventies and eighties to like the trad wives now,

1867
01:35:39,840 --> 01:35:42,120
Speaker 9: and it's like, how does this fit in with your

1868
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:45,880
Speaker 9: overall sort of idea that women should be chaste and

1869
01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:48,320
Speaker 9: submissive and meek and silent. I mean, first of all,

1870
01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:50,600
Speaker 9: tradwife stuff is often fetish.

1871
01:35:50,920 --> 01:35:53,479
Speaker 8: Spanish content, but yeh, I mean pilish laffy made a

1872
01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:58,600
Speaker 8: living professionally saying that women shouldn't make a living professionally,

1873
01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:01,200
Speaker 8: but that contradiction doesn't matter.

1874
01:36:01,600 --> 01:36:04,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean I think I call them valkyries for

1875
01:36:04,600 --> 01:36:06,960
Speaker 9: feminine submission in the book.

1876
01:36:07,479 --> 01:36:08,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, at the.

1877
01:36:08,160 --> 01:36:10,320
Speaker 9: End of the day, like if you believe that this

1878
01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:14,360
Speaker 9: is your your calling, your mission, you know, your mission

1879
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 9: field in the service of the Lord to undo the

1880
01:36:17,439 --> 01:36:20,960
Speaker 9: demonic sort of influence of feminism, Like of course you're

1881
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:22,439
Speaker 9: going to.

1882
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:24,040
Speaker 8: Speak, You've been moved by God to do so.

1883
01:36:24,439 --> 01:36:29,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, And of course, like female leaders with the evangelical community,

1884
01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:33,479
Speaker 9: like sort of minority Republicans can be like knocked off

1885
01:36:33,520 --> 01:36:36,960
Speaker 9: their pedestal quicker and easier, but like they still can

1886
01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:40,840
Speaker 9: come out and exist and testify and Schlaughley throughout her

1887
01:36:41,479 --> 01:36:45,360
Speaker 9: very long prolific and lucrative career, you know, was like

1888
01:36:45,400 --> 01:36:49,720
Speaker 9: I'm a housewife with six kids, and that was her

1889
01:36:49,840 --> 01:36:52,000
Speaker 9: that was how she defined herself even while being this

1890
01:36:52,080 --> 01:36:56,200
Speaker 9: incredibly prominent figure and one of the sort of key

1891
01:36:56,360 --> 01:37:00,960
Speaker 9: architects of the current Christian right coalition of like when Catholics,

1892
01:37:01,680 --> 01:37:05,000
Speaker 9: she and Paul Leric and Leonard Leo and some other

1893
01:37:05,040 --> 01:37:09,680
Speaker 9: right wing Catholics brought these Catholic values of being all

1894
01:37:09,720 --> 01:37:13,680
Speaker 9: about abortion to the evangelical right, which prior to the

1895
01:37:13,680 --> 01:37:15,599
Speaker 9: seventies is like, that's a weird Catholic thing.

1896
01:37:16,080 --> 01:37:17,439
Speaker 10: You don't really care I.

1897
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:19,720
Speaker 8: Wanted to talk about that. So I'm not sure how

1898
01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:24,719
Speaker 8: sort of common knowledge this is, but the Protestant Christian

1899
01:37:24,760 --> 01:37:28,400
Speaker 8: community in the United States did not care about abortion

1900
01:37:28,600 --> 01:37:30,839
Speaker 8: until the seventies. It was not an issue in their communities.

1901
01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:34,120
Speaker 8: They were generally pro abortion. They were you know, the

1902
01:37:34,160 --> 01:37:36,200
Speaker 8: Baptists were in favor of Roe V. Wade.

1903
01:37:36,640 --> 01:37:39,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, the fucking Southern Baptist Convention came out in like

1904
01:37:40,160 --> 01:37:42,400
Speaker 9: seventy four, I think it was, and was like, yeah,

1905
01:37:42,560 --> 01:37:44,080
Speaker 9: we approved of rov Wade.

1906
01:37:44,400 --> 01:37:46,840
Speaker 8: So it's not like, you know, opposition to abortion is

1907
01:37:47,160 --> 01:37:52,080
Speaker 8: baked into Christianity. It is baked into the American Evangelical

1908
01:37:52,160 --> 01:37:55,440
Speaker 8: Christianity of post nineteen seventy five or so.

1909
01:37:55,840 --> 01:37:59,920
Speaker 7: Because of this sort of conscious cynical political.

1910
01:37:59,280 --> 01:38:02,680
Speaker 8: Decision, and that I think is so interesting because you know,

1911
01:38:02,920 --> 01:38:05,200
Speaker 8: you get into this conversation of well, what are their

1912
01:38:05,240 --> 01:38:07,760
Speaker 8: deeply held beliefs and do they really believe it and

1913
01:38:07,800 --> 01:38:11,519
Speaker 8: does that matter? But we can pin down the moment

1914
01:38:11,560 --> 01:38:15,280
Speaker 8: they started believing this and we know why, and it's segregation.

1915
01:38:16,280 --> 01:38:18,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, first of all, I would say, like

1916
01:38:18,880 --> 01:38:22,599
Speaker 9: people can still like this is like several generations later

1917
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:28,080
Speaker 9: of like constant barrages of extremely violent propaganda against abortions.

1918
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:31,080
Speaker 8: So right, so the belief is sincere today, but you

1919
01:38:31,120 --> 01:38:34,200
Speaker 8: could look at it where it was born. Yeah, exactly,

1920
01:38:34,240 --> 01:38:36,280
Speaker 8: you should have been aborted, right, Yeah.

1921
01:38:36,240 --> 01:38:38,280
Speaker 10: No, it definitely should not have been carried to term.

1922
01:38:38,280 --> 01:38:40,280
Speaker 10: But like it's it's crazy.

1923
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:44,880
Speaker 9: And in addition, Tomah's book Randall Baumer does some really

1924
01:38:44,920 --> 01:38:48,760
Speaker 9: good coverage of this. So the sort of general arc

1925
01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:53,880
Speaker 9: is like three sort of nineteen seventies, you had this

1926
01:38:53,960 --> 01:39:00,600
Speaker 9: like generally conservative population of Southern Baptists who we're like

1927
01:39:00,760 --> 01:39:03,760
Speaker 9: on board with McCarthyism, hated the godless Reds, but kind

1928
01:39:03,800 --> 01:39:08,120
Speaker 9: of viewed politics as like worldly and not really their

1929
01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:13,040
Speaker 9: sphere and we're not particularly politically engaged. And then brown

1930
01:39:13,160 --> 01:39:18,839
Speaker 9: versus a board of Education passes immediately the white Christian

1931
01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:23,960
Speaker 9: populist just disinvests these from the public schools, leaving multiple

1932
01:39:24,040 --> 01:39:28,320
Speaker 9: counties in the South without functionally any public education at all.

1933
01:39:28,720 --> 01:39:34,120
Speaker 9: And this mushroom after rain, kind of like patch of

1934
01:39:34,840 --> 01:39:38,800
Speaker 9: patches of parochial schools with church or Christian in the

1935
01:39:38,920 --> 01:39:42,880
Speaker 9: name start popping up, and they're all white schools. Their

1936
01:39:42,920 --> 01:39:46,080
Speaker 9: segregation academies is the sort of term of art for these,

1937
01:39:46,160 --> 01:39:51,599
Speaker 9: and they're explicitly under a Christian agis they're religious schools.

1938
01:39:52,000 --> 01:39:53,960
Speaker 10: Their tax exempt as a result.

1939
01:39:54,240 --> 01:39:58,439
Speaker 9: And then in like the late sixties and seventies, the

1940
01:39:58,479 --> 01:40:02,720
Speaker 9: government was like, you can't be tax exempt and like

1941
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:07,960
Speaker 9: considered a charitable organization if you are segregated and don't

1942
01:40:08,000 --> 01:40:09,040
Speaker 9: have any black.

1943
01:40:08,840 --> 01:40:10,720
Speaker 10: Students or minority students.

1944
01:40:11,280 --> 01:40:14,880
Speaker 9: And that is what woke the sleeping dragon of the

1945
01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:18,519
Speaker 9: Christian right really like, you know, get your filthy government

1946
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:20,200
Speaker 9: hands off our tax exemptions.

1947
01:40:20,280 --> 01:40:23,000
Speaker 10: Like they just went, you know nuts.

1948
01:40:23,040 --> 01:40:26,960
Speaker 9: They were really mobilized, you know, like these are the

1949
01:40:26,960 --> 01:40:29,840
Speaker 9: people who are like growing tomatoes at Ruby Bridges, Like

1950
01:40:30,280 --> 01:40:33,479
Speaker 9: you know, they're really politically motivated for the first time

1951
01:40:33,960 --> 01:40:38,480
Speaker 9: because they're experiencing like a consequence for segregation.

1952
01:40:39,160 --> 01:40:42,360
Speaker 10: And so this is when like Jerry.

1953
01:40:42,080 --> 01:40:48,160
Speaker 9: Fowell and Ralph Reid and you know, James Dobson start

1954
01:40:48,200 --> 01:40:51,280
Speaker 9: sort of coming forward and being more prominent. And then

1955
01:40:51,840 --> 01:40:54,880
Speaker 9: by the sort of mid seventies to eighties, you had

1956
01:40:55,200 --> 01:41:00,599
Speaker 9: these like savvy or political operators coming out and saying, hey, guys,

1957
01:41:00,840 --> 01:41:05,320
Speaker 9: segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever. Is like, it's great

1958
01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:08,960
Speaker 9: that it really fired y'all up, but it has sort

1959
01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:10,400
Speaker 9: of a limited appeal.

1960
01:41:10,760 --> 01:41:12,439
Speaker 8: And they shot George Wallace. It's over.

1961
01:41:12,960 --> 01:41:15,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, Like there's gonna be a ceiling on that, and

1962
01:41:15,800 --> 01:41:18,160
Speaker 9: a lot of people think you suck. So why don't

1963
01:41:18,160 --> 01:41:19,920
Speaker 9: you get it on the ground on this new civil

1964
01:41:20,040 --> 01:41:23,839
Speaker 9: rights struggle abortion, where you can fight for the unborn

1965
01:41:23,960 --> 01:41:25,880
Speaker 9: who conveniently will never.

1966
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:29,720
Speaker 8: Disagree with you, right, their voices don't have to be

1967
01:41:29,800 --> 01:41:31,400
Speaker 8: centered here. We can speak for them.

1968
01:41:31,800 --> 01:41:36,040
Speaker 9: I mean, they're the most convenient political constituency in history.

1969
01:41:35,920 --> 01:41:39,320
Speaker 8: Right because they're so innocent and you can't milkshake duck

1970
01:41:39,360 --> 01:41:40,720
Speaker 8: a fetus. He's not even here.

1971
01:41:41,200 --> 01:41:43,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, he can't talk, but he's not gonna say shit.

1972
01:41:56,040 --> 01:41:59,400
Speaker 9: So I mean that's like the very capsule history. And

1973
01:41:59,400 --> 01:42:01,880
Speaker 9: then of course becomes this idea of like the moral

1974
01:42:01,920 --> 01:42:05,320
Speaker 9: majority and where the Guardians of America's soul and we're

1975
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:06,960
Speaker 9: gonna get really weird about sex.

1976
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:08,960
Speaker 10: Also, it's just.

1977
01:42:08,840 --> 01:42:11,200
Speaker 8: Like if you strip it all the way down to

1978
01:42:11,240 --> 01:42:14,360
Speaker 8: the studs, Like the core of this is women are

1979
01:42:14,360 --> 01:42:17,479
Speaker 8: bleeding to death in hospital parking lots because Jerry Folwell

1980
01:42:17,560 --> 01:42:22,800
Speaker 8: didn't want to pay his taxes or stop being racist. Yeah,

1981
01:42:22,920 --> 01:42:24,479
Speaker 8: I mean that's not fair.

1982
01:42:24,880 --> 01:42:28,680
Speaker 9: No, people sometimes like are a little skeptical when I'm like,

1983
01:42:28,720 --> 01:42:32,720
Speaker 9: all of the hatreds are interconnected. But then you look

1984
01:42:32,720 --> 01:42:36,400
Speaker 9: at like concrete historical examples of like this world historical

1985
01:42:36,439 --> 01:42:37,440
Speaker 9: wave of misogyny.

1986
01:42:37,439 --> 01:42:38,040
Speaker 10: I mean, it's not.

1987
01:42:38,040 --> 01:42:42,320
Speaker 9: That this population wasn't like weird about sex or weird

1988
01:42:42,320 --> 01:42:43,160
Speaker 9: about women.

1989
01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:43,760
Speaker 7: Like to start with.

1990
01:42:43,840 --> 01:42:45,800
Speaker 8: I mean maybe they would have gotten here a different way,

1991
01:42:46,240 --> 01:42:47,400
Speaker 8: but that's how we got here.

1992
01:42:47,680 --> 01:42:50,479
Speaker 9: Yeah, we got here by just like, no, we will

1993
01:42:50,560 --> 01:42:56,280
Speaker 9: pay taxes on our segregation academies. Bob Jones University's inter

1994
01:42:56,439 --> 01:43:01,640
Speaker 9: racial dating ban is perfectly great, and we're gonna mobilize

1995
01:43:01,680 --> 01:43:04,720
Speaker 9: about it. And so what you have then now is

1996
01:43:04,880 --> 01:43:08,760
Speaker 9: just like fifty years of political lock step because and

1997
01:43:09,360 --> 01:43:10,160
Speaker 9: you see this in like.

1998
01:43:10,120 --> 01:43:12,040
Speaker 10: Other religious communities, I mean, like I know.

1999
01:43:12,400 --> 01:43:15,320
Speaker 9: Like it's sort of notorious how much corruption slides by

2000
01:43:15,360 --> 01:43:17,880
Speaker 9: in New York because like the consident communities vote as

2001
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:22,800
Speaker 9: a block, Like it is very useful to have a

2002
01:43:22,880 --> 01:43:25,200
Speaker 9: congregation that all votes the same way.

2003
01:43:25,640 --> 01:43:26,960
Speaker 10: It's politically useful.

2004
01:43:27,120 --> 01:43:30,160
Speaker 8: I mean, what other populations can you get together once

2005
01:43:30,160 --> 01:43:32,680
Speaker 8: a week as a captive audience and speak to with

2006
01:43:32,760 --> 01:43:35,040
Speaker 8: authority if you can mobilize those people. And that's what

2007
01:43:35,120 --> 01:43:37,639
Speaker 8: Jerry Folwell saw, right, is like this is a great

2008
01:43:37,680 --> 01:43:40,280
Speaker 8: way to get a lot of people to vote the

2009
01:43:40,280 --> 01:43:41,320
Speaker 8: way I want them to vote.

2010
01:43:41,880 --> 01:43:44,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, And you know, the church has always been like

2011
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:49,240
Speaker 9: a really prominent institution in American civil society, especially as

2012
01:43:50,120 --> 01:43:54,120
Speaker 9: the rest of sort of civil society has fallen away

2013
01:43:54,280 --> 01:43:57,320
Speaker 9: and degraded. Like churches are some of the only social

2014
01:43:57,400 --> 01:44:00,720
Speaker 9: outlets that Americans have. And what's interest when you talk

2015
01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:03,880
Speaker 9: to evangelicals and next evangelicals is just like being a

2016
01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:06,800
Speaker 9: Republican is like part of their religious identity in a

2017
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:10,040
Speaker 9: major way. It's like this is how you vote, and

2018
01:44:10,080 --> 01:44:13,160
Speaker 9: this is you know, how you dress, and this is

2019
01:44:13,160 --> 01:44:16,160
Speaker 9: how you go to church and so on. But like

2020
01:44:16,280 --> 01:44:18,679
Speaker 9: the idea of being a democrat is like not only

2021
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:22,080
Speaker 9: you know, a little bit out of step with your community,

2022
01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:22,920
Speaker 9: it's heretical.

2023
01:44:23,040 --> 01:44:24,280
Speaker 8: I mean, that's how the demons give in.

2024
01:44:24,680 --> 01:44:28,280
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, demoncrats, I mean, and like, yeah, it's stupid.

2025
01:44:28,320 --> 01:44:31,280
Speaker 9: But it's also like half of the people saying demoncrats,

2026
01:44:31,280 --> 01:44:34,200
Speaker 9: like literally mean democrats are aligned with Lucifer.

2027
01:44:34,560 --> 01:44:36,599
Speaker 8: And I think that's a point that I don't want

2028
01:44:36,640 --> 01:44:38,920
Speaker 8: to get lost on the listener. This you know, this

2029
01:44:39,040 --> 01:44:43,000
Speaker 8: idea that people literally have demons in them, that demons

2030
01:44:43,040 --> 01:44:45,680
Speaker 8: are active in the world, that demons are motivating the

2031
01:44:45,720 --> 01:44:49,439
Speaker 8: actions of their enemies. It's real for them. And I'm

2032
01:44:49,439 --> 01:44:53,360
Speaker 8: not saying that to be derisive or you know, it's real.

2033
01:44:53,520 --> 01:44:56,760
Speaker 8: It's real. It is an animating factor for a lot

2034
01:44:56,800 --> 01:45:00,320
Speaker 8: of these people. And that's hard to wrap your mind around.

2035
01:45:00,800 --> 01:45:03,840
Speaker 8: I mean, I struggle with the idea that that is

2036
01:45:03,880 --> 01:45:05,800
Speaker 8: real for them. But like that's how you get things

2037
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:08,320
Speaker 8: like satanic panic, and we see echoes of satanic panic

2038
01:45:08,360 --> 01:45:11,200
Speaker 8: in this idea of you know, groomers in kids' schools,

2039
01:45:11,200 --> 01:45:15,679
Speaker 8: they really have this fundamental, like foundational belief in this,

2040
01:45:16,120 --> 01:45:18,000
Speaker 8: you know, whether or not they're calling it demons, that

2041
01:45:18,080 --> 01:45:21,479
Speaker 8: the existence of some sort of ontological evil that is

2042
01:45:21,520 --> 01:45:24,439
Speaker 8: coming for their children. And like, once you arrive at

2043
01:45:24,439 --> 01:45:26,519
Speaker 8: the place where like where you understand that that's real

2044
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:28,840
Speaker 8: for them, their actions make more sense, like they're not

2045
01:45:28,880 --> 01:45:31,680
Speaker 8: behaving irrationally if you if you truly believe that these

2046
01:45:31,680 --> 01:45:33,679
Speaker 8: things were happening, you'd act crazy too.

2047
01:45:34,439 --> 01:45:37,439
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean it's really hard to get people to

2048
01:45:37,520 --> 01:45:41,599
Speaker 9: step outside their own worldviews, and in both directions, right,

2049
01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:45,639
Speaker 9: Like I don't believe that demons are you know, abroad

2050
01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:49,120
Speaker 9: in the world and motivating like every element of political

2051
01:45:49,160 --> 01:45:50,400
Speaker 9: action to someone who.

2052
01:45:50,320 --> 01:45:54,800
Speaker 8: I'm starting to see them some places, but generally no.

2053
01:45:54,160 --> 01:45:58,519
Speaker 9: To someone who does my viewpoint is incomprehensible and vice versa.

2054
01:45:58,760 --> 01:46:01,160
Speaker 9: So I think part of I mean not that I'm

2055
01:46:01,200 --> 01:46:03,439
Speaker 9: like one of those people that's like polarization is the

2056
01:46:03,439 --> 01:46:06,640
Speaker 9: big problem, like you know, as opposed to anything with

2057
01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:10,400
Speaker 9: like concrete policy, like you know where it's like the

2058
01:46:10,400 --> 01:46:12,400
Speaker 9: big problem is we all don't like each other enough.

2059
01:46:12,439 --> 01:46:14,559
Speaker 9: And I'm like, no, the big problem is like people

2060
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:18,360
Speaker 9: are espousing policies that will cause deaths, and like also

2061
01:46:18,439 --> 01:46:21,360
Speaker 9: that people like believe their political enemies are like literally

2062
01:46:21,400 --> 01:46:23,679
Speaker 9: agents of Satan, I would say, is like a bigger

2063
01:46:23,720 --> 01:46:27,519
Speaker 9: problem than polarization and the abstract. But yeah, I mean

2064
01:46:27,520 --> 01:46:30,880
Speaker 9: this this doctrine of sort of spiritual warfare, which if

2065
01:46:30,880 --> 01:46:32,960
Speaker 9: you like google it it's just like, oh, this is

2066
01:46:33,000 --> 01:46:35,920
Speaker 9: the mindset, and it's like you the listener to it

2067
01:46:36,080 --> 01:46:38,519
Speaker 9: could happen here, like you've been drafted into the spirit

2068
01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:39,759
Speaker 9: war from like birth.

2069
01:46:40,640 --> 01:46:42,800
Speaker 8: Congratulations, private, and.

2070
01:46:42,720 --> 01:46:46,120
Speaker 9: You're probably on the side of the devil, so good job.

2071
01:46:46,400 --> 01:46:49,080
Speaker 9: I mean, I don't know, like a lot of Americans

2072
01:46:49,080 --> 01:46:52,120
Speaker 9: believe in angels and demons, and that's fine, but it's

2073
01:46:52,160 --> 01:46:56,040
Speaker 9: like when that starts impinging on the political sphere in

2074
01:46:56,080 --> 01:46:58,200
Speaker 9: a very serious way, It's like, how far would you

2075
01:46:58,240 --> 01:47:03,400
Speaker 9: go if you believed your opponent was under the thrall

2076
01:47:03,439 --> 01:47:08,280
Speaker 9: of like Satan, you would go pretty damn far's.

2077
01:47:07,000 --> 01:47:09,680
Speaker 8: I mean, that's why you know clinic bombings were and

2078
01:47:09,800 --> 01:47:11,680
Speaker 8: I guess are on the rise again, right, like these

2079
01:47:11,760 --> 01:47:15,479
Speaker 8: arsins of clinics. It's not like other kinds of crime

2080
01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:18,519
Speaker 8: in my mind, right, it's not a crime of passion

2081
01:47:18,640 --> 01:47:21,880
Speaker 8: or an interpersonal dispute. It is people who have been

2082
01:47:22,080 --> 01:47:25,120
Speaker 8: motivated by this belief that this is a place where

2083
01:47:25,160 --> 01:47:27,519
Speaker 8: a genocide is happening, that there's a holocaust going on

2084
01:47:27,560 --> 01:47:30,439
Speaker 8: in there, that people are ripping you know, actual living

2085
01:47:30,479 --> 01:47:32,559
Speaker 8: babies limb from limb, and if you really did believe

2086
01:47:32,600 --> 01:47:35,439
Speaker 8: that their actions make sense and that's why it happens

2087
01:47:35,479 --> 01:47:37,640
Speaker 8: so often, right, because these people are motivated by this

2088
01:47:37,720 --> 01:47:40,759
Speaker 8: belief that God commands them to take this action.

2089
01:47:41,680 --> 01:47:44,439
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean there's your dual element to that. I mean,

2090
01:47:44,479 --> 01:47:47,000
Speaker 9: first of all, absolutely yes, Like I've read some anti

2091
01:47:47,040 --> 01:47:50,920
Speaker 9: abortion terror manuals speaking of extremely unpleasant research, and it's

2092
01:47:51,040 --> 01:47:55,880
Speaker 9: just really like these people are murderers. It's mass murderers,

2093
01:47:55,920 --> 01:47:58,120
Speaker 9: Like you're like killing Hitler, right.

2094
01:47:58,200 --> 01:48:00,400
Speaker 8: And wouldn't you wouldn't you kill baby Hitler?

2095
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:05,799
Speaker 9: Exactly poetical about baby Hitler and like a countrywide scale

2096
01:48:06,000 --> 01:48:10,280
Speaker 9: and when specific abortion doctors have been mentioned in right

2097
01:48:10,360 --> 01:48:12,760
Speaker 9: wing media, those guys end up dead and that's not

2098
01:48:13,080 --> 01:48:16,360
Speaker 9: a coincidence. So there's that element of it, which is

2099
01:48:16,840 --> 01:48:17,640
Speaker 9: the majority of it.

2100
01:48:17,640 --> 01:48:18,080
Speaker 10: It's huge.

2101
01:48:18,080 --> 01:48:22,160
Speaker 9: But there's also this idea of demonic geography, where like

2102
01:48:22,640 --> 01:48:26,080
Speaker 9: demons can possess sort of places like abortion clinics or

2103
01:48:26,439 --> 01:48:31,400
Speaker 9: institutions like Planned parenthood or even the Democratic Party, which

2104
01:48:31,520 --> 01:48:35,360
Speaker 9: you know, I read a lot of demonology books like

2105
01:48:36,160 --> 01:48:40,040
Speaker 9: Taxonomies of Demons. Pigs in the Parlor was this really

2106
01:48:40,040 --> 01:48:42,240
Speaker 9: big hit in like the seventies, and it's been like

2107
01:48:42,320 --> 01:48:45,120
Speaker 9: reissued and reissued and millions of copies and it's just like,

2108
01:48:45,720 --> 01:48:48,519
Speaker 9: on one level, it's really compelling because it's like, are

2109
01:48:48,560 --> 01:48:52,800
Speaker 9: you tired, are you sad? Are you feeling clumsy? Do

2110
01:48:52,840 --> 01:48:56,320
Speaker 9: you have like persistent stomach aches? It's demons and here's

2111
01:48:56,320 --> 01:48:58,759
Speaker 9: how you deal with that. And like in a country

2112
01:48:58,800 --> 01:49:02,960
Speaker 9: with shitty health care, I can totally see why someone

2113
01:49:03,000 --> 01:49:07,560
Speaker 9: who's like really depressed might go to like an exorcist

2114
01:49:07,680 --> 01:49:10,599
Speaker 9: or a deliverance minister, which is the Protestant.

2115
01:49:10,160 --> 01:49:12,240
Speaker 8: If you'll try anything, and this guy's going to do

2116
01:49:12,280 --> 01:49:13,000
Speaker 8: it for free.

2117
01:49:13,439 --> 01:49:17,040
Speaker 9: I watch so many videos of deliverance ministers doing their thing,

2118
01:49:17,160 --> 01:49:20,240
Speaker 9: and it's like freezy. It's like people you know, are

2119
01:49:20,320 --> 01:49:23,360
Speaker 9: just like sitting there and they're like people praying over

2120
01:49:23,360 --> 01:49:26,639
Speaker 9: them and screaming in their face, like and they wind

2121
01:49:26,720 --> 01:49:29,679
Speaker 9: up vomiting and crying and it's all very like intense.

2122
01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:32,280
Speaker 9: And you know, if you think about it from a

2123
01:49:32,280 --> 01:49:35,640
Speaker 9: placebo effect perspective for like one second, you're like, obviously

2124
01:49:35,720 --> 01:49:39,320
Speaker 9: this person would feel a weightlifted from them. They've had

2125
01:49:39,320 --> 01:49:43,080
Speaker 9: this ecstatic experience. And this isn't the majority of it.

2126
01:49:43,600 --> 01:49:46,800
Speaker 9: This is about fourteen percent of America identifies this as

2127
01:49:46,840 --> 01:49:50,960
Speaker 9: white avengels. So many Protestants, it's still so many people,

2128
01:49:51,240 --> 01:49:53,920
Speaker 9: because people keep asking me, like, how many people really

2129
01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:56,920
Speaker 9: believe shit like this, and I'm like, well, about eighty

2130
01:49:57,040 --> 01:49:59,479
Speaker 9: to ninety percent of like people who identify as white

2131
01:49:59,520 --> 01:50:02,840
Speaker 9: evangel Protestants vows most of these beliefs.

2132
01:50:02,880 --> 01:50:05,080
Speaker 8: So that's like, that's like thirty million people.

2133
01:50:05,720 --> 01:50:06,000
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2134
01:50:06,120 --> 01:50:08,360
Speaker 10: Yeah. And then you add in the Catholic.

2135
01:50:08,000 --> 01:50:09,920
Speaker 8: Right, which is getting weirder every day.

2136
01:50:10,320 --> 01:50:10,519
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2137
01:50:10,640 --> 01:50:16,200
Speaker 9: Jd Vance, I hate women exist to reproduce, breathe you

2138
01:50:16,280 --> 01:50:20,000
Speaker 9: filthy sow. But like, even beyond the adult Catholic convert

2139
01:50:20,360 --> 01:50:24,360
Speaker 9: style weirdness, like right wing Catholics are an integral part

2140
01:50:24,360 --> 01:50:28,360
Speaker 9: of the Christian right, like Amy Cony Barrett, you know,

2141
01:50:28,800 --> 01:50:33,360
Speaker 9: antonin Scalia, that kind of thing. That's another bunch of millions.

2142
01:50:33,880 --> 01:50:39,439
Speaker 9: So this reactionary force has like numerically significant constituency. On

2143
01:50:39,479 --> 01:50:43,439
Speaker 9: the other hand, it definitely punches way above its weight

2144
01:50:43,560 --> 01:50:44,519
Speaker 9: in terms of right.

2145
01:50:44,560 --> 01:50:48,800
Speaker 8: They have an outsized influence of both you know, on

2146
01:50:48,840 --> 01:50:51,679
Speaker 8: the legislative floor and when it comes to you know,

2147
01:50:51,880 --> 01:50:53,320
Speaker 8: who's racking up the most bodies.

2148
01:50:53,720 --> 01:50:53,960
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2149
01:50:54,000 --> 01:50:57,600
Speaker 9: And also even like the culture wars right, like the

2150
01:50:58,040 --> 01:51:03,000
Speaker 9: sort of loudest culture warriors tend to at least come

2151
01:51:03,040 --> 01:51:06,760
Speaker 9: from like a background of I'm speaking for God or

2152
01:51:06,960 --> 01:51:09,000
Speaker 9: Christ is king or whatever it is, Like how many

2153
01:51:09,080 --> 01:51:12,360
Speaker 9: times have you and I encountered that an extremist contacts

2154
01:51:12,400 --> 01:51:15,200
Speaker 9: But also like the sort of more mainstream me.

2155
01:51:16,640 --> 01:51:18,640
Speaker 10: What the fuck the mainstream is? I don't know, it's

2156
01:51:18,680 --> 01:51:19,480
Speaker 10: full of piss.

2157
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:22,320
Speaker 9: But like the more mainstream me, like Christian grifter, right,

2158
01:51:22,479 --> 01:51:25,320
Speaker 9: they come from this. I'm speaking from my faith. These

2159
01:51:25,360 --> 01:51:29,599
Speaker 9: are my religious principles. But like it is with noting again,

2160
01:51:29,920 --> 01:51:33,439
Speaker 9: just to rewind in our conversation, but like the whole

2161
01:51:33,640 --> 01:51:38,439
Speaker 9: concept of religious liberty and religious freedom absolutely was like

2162
01:51:38,560 --> 01:51:43,439
Speaker 9: an ad slogan coined in the seventies around segregation, right.

2163
01:51:43,320 --> 01:51:45,960
Speaker 8: Religious freedom to do what? I mean, it's like states rights,

2164
01:51:46,000 --> 01:51:47,360
Speaker 8: states rights to do what?

2165
01:51:48,000 --> 01:51:48,200
Speaker 11: Right?

2166
01:51:48,320 --> 01:51:50,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, like you answer the question.

2167
01:51:50,680 --> 01:51:54,519
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's religious freedom to have segregated schools, is the

2168
01:51:54,560 --> 01:51:55,160
Speaker 9: answer to that.

2169
01:51:55,479 --> 01:51:57,639
Speaker 8: And you still see echoes of that with either still

2170
01:51:57,640 --> 01:52:01,479
Speaker 8: religious schools that can't accept federal grant money because they

2171
01:52:01,479 --> 01:52:05,360
Speaker 8: don't let students be gay, right, Like it's not racial

2172
01:52:05,360 --> 01:52:08,320
Speaker 8: segregation anymore, but they are, you know, refusing to admit

2173
01:52:08,439 --> 01:52:11,800
Speaker 8: gay students, and that is a violation of federal civil

2174
01:52:11,880 --> 01:52:12,320
Speaker 8: rights law.

2175
01:52:12,760 --> 01:52:15,599
Speaker 9: Yeah, but that's where I mean that's where that slogan started,

2176
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:18,240
Speaker 9: and then it's blossomed to include basically like a gay

2177
01:52:18,280 --> 01:52:23,080
Speaker 9: person came into my shop, except they didn't, right, I know,

2178
01:52:23,120 --> 01:52:25,479
Speaker 9: there's no standing, right, Like that whole case was built

2179
01:52:25,560 --> 01:52:26,000
Speaker 9: a lie.

2180
01:52:26,240 --> 01:52:26,599
Speaker 7: Whatever.

2181
01:52:26,720 --> 01:52:30,799
Speaker 9: That's yeah, it's like and the standing in the Supreme

2182
01:52:30,800 --> 01:52:33,759
Speaker 9: Court is so ridiculous. This, I mean, in many ways,

2183
01:52:33,800 --> 01:52:36,960
Speaker 9: this Supreme Court is the culmination and embodiment and a

2184
01:52:37,000 --> 01:52:40,200
Speaker 9: botheosis of like Christian right theocracy, because you have these

2185
01:52:40,240 --> 01:52:43,880
Speaker 9: like absolutely bat shit religious zealous I mean Amy Cony

2186
01:52:43,920 --> 01:52:48,080
Speaker 9: Barrett is like from a cult, and in this unaccountable body,

2187
01:52:48,120 --> 01:52:52,439
Speaker 9: they're passing unpopular theocratic principles that the majority of the

2188
01:52:52,439 --> 01:52:56,640
Speaker 9: American public disagrees with. But like specifically what they are

2189
01:52:56,640 --> 01:52:58,840
Speaker 9: trying to enact and what they are what they are

2190
01:52:58,920 --> 01:53:03,640
Speaker 9: enacting is this theogratic agenda, where like the government is

2191
01:53:03,640 --> 01:53:07,120
Speaker 9: in your bedroom, the government is in your doctor's office,

2192
01:53:07,200 --> 01:53:10,920
Speaker 9: like the government is sniffing your panties, and it's it's

2193
01:53:11,040 --> 01:53:15,599
Speaker 9: gross and it's upsetting and fundamentally like theocracies are just

2194
01:53:16,080 --> 01:53:19,559
Speaker 9: very famously all up in your junk, like they're obsessed

2195
01:53:19,600 --> 01:53:23,080
Speaker 9: with like controlling and censoring sexuality of all kinds of

2196
01:53:23,160 --> 01:53:27,879
Speaker 9: a particularly female sexuality and queer sexuality, like sniff those out.

2197
01:53:28,160 --> 01:53:32,559
Speaker 9: And so that's part of the reason why so many

2198
01:53:33,200 --> 01:53:36,559
Speaker 9: abortion arguments, Like, first of all, you have the like

2199
01:53:36,600 --> 01:53:40,360
Speaker 9: the you're murdering this cluster of cells, which is a

2200
01:53:40,400 --> 01:53:43,320
Speaker 9: full human baby. Like do you remember that article in

2201
01:53:43,360 --> 01:53:45,320
Speaker 9: The Guardian a couple of years ago that like showed

2202
01:53:45,320 --> 01:53:49,200
Speaker 9: the actual size of like fetuses at various stages of development,

2203
01:53:49,240 --> 01:53:52,120
Speaker 9: and it was like you were just like so little,

2204
01:53:52,160 --> 01:53:53,720
Speaker 9: like these little like little fingernails.

2205
01:53:53,800 --> 01:53:56,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, and it doesn't look like a tiny baby doll.

2206
01:53:56,160 --> 01:53:57,240
Speaker 7: That's just very small.

2207
01:53:57,680 --> 01:54:00,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, exactly, it's not like a mini baby like it

2208
01:54:01,040 --> 01:54:03,759
Speaker 9: like tides of gore. It's like literally like a tiny

2209
01:54:03,800 --> 01:54:08,519
Speaker 9: cluster of cells. So the anti abortion propaganda, like you

2210
01:54:08,560 --> 01:54:11,160
Speaker 9: are not immune to propaganda. It has like wormed its

2211
01:54:11,200 --> 01:54:14,479
Speaker 9: way into the popular consciousness just by virtue of its

2212
01:54:14,560 --> 01:54:20,160
Speaker 9: ubiquity and constant repetition being the key to successful propaganda.

2213
01:54:20,320 --> 01:54:22,240
Speaker 9: But so many of these arguments, in addition to this

2214
01:54:22,400 --> 01:54:26,360
Speaker 9: abortion is murder, staff is also just like you should

2215
01:54:26,400 --> 01:54:27,960
Speaker 9: have kept your legs closed.

2216
01:54:27,880 --> 01:54:30,439
Speaker 8: Right, this is a this is a consequence God did

2217
01:54:30,439 --> 01:54:30,920
Speaker 8: this to you.

2218
01:54:31,320 --> 01:54:34,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, like sex for your sins immortal sin and sex

2219
01:54:35,000 --> 01:54:36,320
Speaker 9: should be punished, and.

2220
01:54:36,440 --> 01:54:37,720
Speaker 8: I think must be doing it wrong.

2221
01:54:38,840 --> 01:54:41,320
Speaker 9: Like, I'm like, why do you want sex to have

2222
01:54:41,480 --> 01:54:46,720
Speaker 9: consequences and be punished? The like intensity of the misogyny

2223
01:54:46,720 --> 01:54:48,480
Speaker 9: around purity culture is so intense.

2224
01:55:00,040 --> 01:55:02,360
Speaker 8: Ask you, you know, about the experience of writing the book, right,

2225
01:55:02,400 --> 01:55:05,760
Speaker 8: So you know, your first book, Culture Warlords, was traumatizing

2226
01:55:05,800 --> 01:55:09,120
Speaker 8: for you to craft, right, because you had to spend

2227
01:55:09,200 --> 01:55:12,400
Speaker 8: so much time in these digital spaces in some in

2228
01:55:12,400 --> 01:55:16,120
Speaker 8: some cases physical spaces with you know, neo Nazis, four

2229
01:55:16,200 --> 01:55:20,919
Speaker 8: Chan guys, you know, aspiring terrorists, and so that's traumatic

2230
01:55:20,960 --> 01:55:24,879
Speaker 8: to experience, you know, But largely that experience was alone,

2231
01:55:24,920 --> 01:55:27,800
Speaker 8: like at your computer screen, sort of consuming this content

2232
01:55:27,840 --> 01:55:30,920
Speaker 8: that was eroding your soul. But the second half of

2233
01:55:30,920 --> 01:55:35,200
Speaker 8: this book is about child abuse, right, And like you

2234
01:55:35,680 --> 01:55:40,320
Speaker 8: interviewed people who grew up in this movement about their lives,

2235
01:55:40,360 --> 01:55:43,240
Speaker 8: about their husband's raping them and their parents beating them

2236
01:55:43,240 --> 01:55:50,600
Speaker 8: as children, and like how did those experiences compare? And

2237
01:55:50,600 --> 01:55:51,280
Speaker 8: like what was that?

2238
01:55:52,000 --> 01:55:52,120
Speaker 6: How?

2239
01:55:52,160 --> 01:55:53,600
Speaker 8: I mean, how did you prepare to do that? I

2240
01:55:53,640 --> 01:55:56,120
Speaker 8: don't know even know how it would begin to do

2241
01:55:56,200 --> 01:55:57,960
Speaker 8: that with care.

2242
01:55:58,600 --> 01:56:01,440
Speaker 9: I mean, I think my goal going in is like

2243
01:56:01,560 --> 01:56:04,040
Speaker 9: I'm not going to betray you. Like that was my

2244
01:56:04,960 --> 01:56:08,880
Speaker 9: guiding ethos of just like I view like your trust

2245
01:56:08,880 --> 01:56:12,160
Speaker 9: in me as a sacred thing, not like sacred in

2246
01:56:12,200 --> 01:56:15,160
Speaker 9: any formal religious sense, but just like you know, I

2247
01:56:15,240 --> 01:56:17,120
Speaker 9: view your trust in me as something that I hold

2248
01:56:17,800 --> 01:56:18,720
Speaker 9: very dearly.

2249
01:56:19,200 --> 01:56:20,240
Speaker 10: It's very important.

2250
01:56:20,400 --> 01:56:23,640
Speaker 9: I'm going to treat your pain with as much gentleness

2251
01:56:23,640 --> 01:56:26,360
Speaker 9: and respect as I can. And like I interviewed over

2252
01:56:26,360 --> 01:56:31,360
Speaker 9: one hundred people, largely about their experiences with experiencing child

2253
01:56:31,400 --> 01:56:34,480
Speaker 9: abuse in an evangelical milieu, as is laid out with

2254
01:56:34,640 --> 01:56:39,000
Speaker 9: pain steaking instructions, and like all of these parenting manuals. Actually,

2255
01:56:39,040 --> 01:56:41,840
Speaker 9: like I think reading the parenting manuals was even more

2256
01:56:41,840 --> 01:56:45,240
Speaker 9: disturbing than talking to people, because like people were like

2257
01:56:45,280 --> 01:56:47,160
Speaker 9: this fucked me up and it was wrong. And then

2258
01:56:47,200 --> 01:56:50,680
Speaker 9: these books are like, no, you must beat your toddler

2259
01:56:51,080 --> 01:56:55,040
Speaker 9: because Jesus says so, and like here's exactly how to

2260
01:56:55,080 --> 01:56:57,200
Speaker 9: beat your toddler, and here's what you should use to

2261
01:56:57,240 --> 01:57:00,480
Speaker 9: beat your toddler, and here's the like supremely fucked up,

2262
01:57:00,520 --> 01:57:04,280
Speaker 9: like weird ritual that we prescribe. And then like reading

2263
01:57:04,280 --> 01:57:07,400
Speaker 9: those in tandem with like like the accounts of people

2264
01:57:07,400 --> 01:57:10,440
Speaker 9: who were like this specific thing like sucked me up

2265
01:57:10,520 --> 01:57:13,000
Speaker 9: for life and really messed up my ability to have

2266
01:57:13,080 --> 01:57:16,480
Speaker 9: like intimacy or self confidence or whatever all of that stuff.

2267
01:57:16,520 --> 01:57:17,200
Speaker 10: I mean, it was tough.

2268
01:57:17,360 --> 01:57:20,040
Speaker 9: I definitely took more time. Like I wrote Culture Warlords

2269
01:57:20,040 --> 01:57:24,000
Speaker 9: in nine months, so I was like totally immersed constantly.

2270
01:57:24,400 --> 01:57:27,120
Speaker 9: It just like didn't come up for ayer, yeah at all.

2271
01:57:27,560 --> 01:57:28,880
Speaker 9: And this one I was like, I need a little

2272
01:57:28,880 --> 01:57:32,400
Speaker 9: more time, guys, Like I wrote it over you know,

2273
01:57:32,480 --> 01:57:36,960
Speaker 9: almost three years. I also pretentiously started calling this philosophy

2274
01:57:37,000 --> 01:57:39,440
Speaker 9: Guarding your Heart because I really got lost in the

2275
01:57:39,440 --> 01:57:41,640
Speaker 9: sauce with Culture Warlords, Like I was in a dark

2276
01:57:41,760 --> 01:57:45,040
Speaker 9: place while I was writing it, and afterwards I was

2277
01:57:45,080 --> 01:57:48,800
Speaker 9: also the like it came out in mid COVID, so

2278
01:57:48,840 --> 01:57:51,600
Speaker 9: that didn't help either. But uh, it was a really

2279
01:57:51,720 --> 01:57:54,200
Speaker 9: really rough experience with this. I was like, I'm going

2280
01:57:54,280 --> 01:57:56,960
Speaker 9: to keep writing. I'm gonna write about sandwiches all the

2281
01:57:56,960 --> 01:57:59,400
Speaker 9: way through. I'm gonna like make sure I have friendships

2282
01:57:59,440 --> 01:58:04,120
Speaker 9: and stuff that's grounding me. And I think consciously having

2283
01:58:04,120 --> 01:58:05,880
Speaker 9: that at the forefront of my mind really helped.

2284
01:58:06,600 --> 01:58:06,680
Speaker 6: That.

2285
01:58:06,760 --> 01:58:10,280
Speaker 9: Being said, like, what was really encouraging was all of

2286
01:58:10,360 --> 01:58:14,680
Speaker 9: these people who had experienced this sort of child abuse

2287
01:58:14,720 --> 01:58:19,160
Speaker 9: industrial complex in the evangelical community, where like we really

2288
01:58:19,280 --> 01:58:22,840
Speaker 9: value that someone wants to hear what we have to say,

2289
01:58:23,160 --> 01:58:25,800
Speaker 9: and also that it's someone from outside the community is

2290
01:58:25,840 --> 01:58:29,360
Speaker 9: like paying attention and thinks this is important, which is

2291
01:58:29,360 --> 01:58:33,240
Speaker 9: not to denigrate like expangelical voices, but more to say that, like,

2292
01:58:33,920 --> 01:58:36,160
Speaker 9: I guess there's a certain validation when someone who's like

2293
01:58:36,280 --> 01:58:41,720
Speaker 9: not didn't grow up in your corner of religiosity, dark corner.

2294
01:58:41,560 --> 01:58:43,520
Speaker 8: And sort of bringing it to an outside audience too.

2295
01:58:43,600 --> 01:58:46,320
Speaker 8: I think a lot of expangelicals their audience is largely

2296
01:58:46,360 --> 01:58:48,680
Speaker 8: their fellow expangelicals exactly.

2297
01:58:48,760 --> 01:58:50,480
Speaker 10: And I'm someone who, like I grew up as a Jew,

2298
01:58:50,480 --> 01:58:53,520
Speaker 10: and I'm like, yeah, this sucked. This is terrible.

2299
01:58:54,120 --> 01:58:57,000
Speaker 9: I'm like appalled reading like to Train Up a Child

2300
01:58:57,080 --> 01:59:01,560
Speaker 9: by The Pearls or The Strong Willed Child by jam Stobson, which,

2301
01:59:01,600 --> 01:59:04,960
Speaker 9: like to be clear, the strong willed child is a

2302
01:59:05,000 --> 01:59:05,520
Speaker 9: bad thing.

2303
01:59:05,760 --> 01:59:07,600
Speaker 10: It's a bad thing to have a child with us.

2304
01:59:07,720 --> 01:59:10,320
Speaker 8: You have to beat it out of them, sure, literally,

2305
01:59:10,880 --> 01:59:12,880
Speaker 8: And I'm ring into this in the wild recently. I

2306
01:59:12,880 --> 01:59:15,200
Speaker 8: don't know if you have come across this guy online.

2307
01:59:15,400 --> 01:59:17,720
Speaker 8: Do you know the nineties movie The Little Rascals.

2308
01:59:17,920 --> 01:59:20,840
Speaker 9: Oh my god, alf from The Little Rascals turns out

2309
01:59:20,880 --> 01:59:21,720
Speaker 9: to be able Salfa.

2310
01:59:21,800 --> 01:59:23,800
Speaker 7: The guy who played Alfalfa's name is Bug Hall.

2311
01:59:24,480 --> 01:59:27,920
Speaker 8: He like, really like I don't got into a sort

2312
01:59:27,960 --> 01:59:30,920
Speaker 8: of main character situation over some posts about how he

2313
01:59:31,080 --> 01:59:35,400
Speaker 8: beats his infants. He beats infants because that's I guess,

2314
01:59:35,400 --> 01:59:36,640
Speaker 8: a good way to raise a baby.

2315
01:59:37,160 --> 01:59:39,920
Speaker 10: Yeah. Also I think he's homeless.

2316
01:59:40,720 --> 01:59:41,600
Speaker 7: No, he's a surf.

2317
01:59:42,360 --> 01:59:45,960
Speaker 8: Oh he's a voluntary serfdom arrangement.

2318
01:59:47,360 --> 01:59:55,000
Speaker 9: Oh my god. Okay, well he sounds like a big rascal. Yeah,

2319
01:59:54,000 --> 01:59:58,600
Speaker 9: he's continued that trajectory of Rascal theom But don't be

2320
01:59:58,720 --> 01:59:59,200
Speaker 9: your kids.

2321
01:59:59,240 --> 02:00:01,000
Speaker 10: I mean, I will also say the.

2322
02:00:00,960 --> 02:00:04,440
Speaker 9: Reason why this book focuses so much on child abuse, which,

2323
02:00:05,000 --> 02:00:08,880
Speaker 9: like I encountered some haters and losers and doubters along

2324
02:00:08,920 --> 02:00:10,400
Speaker 9: the way who were like, why are you focused so

2325
02:00:10,440 --> 02:00:13,440
Speaker 9: much on child abuse? And I was like, there are

2326
02:00:13,440 --> 02:00:17,000
Speaker 9: a lot of different theories about like how authoritarianism develops,

2327
02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:20,400
Speaker 9: but one of the big ones is focusing on the

2328
02:00:20,440 --> 02:00:25,520
Speaker 9: pedagogy in authoritarian societies. The societies that become authoritarian, you know,

2329
02:00:26,120 --> 02:00:31,560
Speaker 9: evolve from democracy to authoritarianism and beating the shit out

2330
02:00:31,560 --> 02:00:35,760
Speaker 9: of people from when they're in infancy, and particularly when

2331
02:00:35,760 --> 02:00:41,960
Speaker 9: they display disobedience or ask why, or you know, just

2332
02:00:42,080 --> 02:00:44,440
Speaker 9: deviate from expectations.

2333
02:00:44,440 --> 02:00:46,320
Speaker 8: It's a great way to make an obedient brown shirt.

2334
02:00:46,680 --> 02:00:50,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, exactly, Like this is a recipe for future authoritarians.

2335
02:00:51,040 --> 02:00:53,680
Speaker 9: Like the people I spoke to had sort of broken

2336
02:00:53,680 --> 02:00:56,520
Speaker 9: away largely from this culture, but many of the sort

2337
02:00:56,520 --> 02:01:00,400
Speaker 9: of most obedient soldiers in the armies, Army of God

2338
02:01:00,560 --> 02:01:04,120
Speaker 9: like are that way. Because again, I can't overemphasize how

2339
02:01:04,160 --> 02:01:08,800
Speaker 9: much these parenting manuals, which spanned from like nineteen seventy

2340
02:01:08,840 --> 02:01:13,520
Speaker 9: to twenty fifteen, these texts, you know, the dates that

2341
02:01:13,560 --> 02:01:17,280
Speaker 9: they were published, emphasize having an obedient child. What you

2342
02:01:17,320 --> 02:01:19,880
Speaker 9: want is not like a child who's kind or curious

2343
02:01:20,040 --> 02:01:25,360
Speaker 9: or thoughtful or smart. It's obedient, instantly obedient. Don't make

2344
02:01:25,400 --> 02:01:28,080
Speaker 9: me count to three is the title of one of

2345
02:01:28,160 --> 02:01:31,520
Speaker 9: the books. And like, what you're creating is a culture

2346
02:01:31,520 --> 02:01:34,360
Speaker 9: of people who a like empathize with the aggressor at

2347
02:01:34,360 --> 02:01:38,080
Speaker 9: all times. So hence this admiration for strength and even

2348
02:01:38,120 --> 02:01:41,360
Speaker 9: admiration for cruelty. People who are trained to obey and

2349
02:01:41,400 --> 02:01:45,320
Speaker 9: obey without question, and people who are very acclimated to

2350
02:01:46,240 --> 02:01:47,280
Speaker 9: the use of violence.

2351
02:01:47,520 --> 02:01:50,520
Speaker 8: I mean, you're doing fascism in the home right.

2352
02:01:50,720 --> 02:01:54,360
Speaker 9: So the the author, like Alice Miller, the the author

2353
02:01:54,400 --> 02:01:56,000
Speaker 9: of the book For Your Own Good, lays out a

2354
02:01:56,000 --> 02:01:58,280
Speaker 9: pretty she was also a Holocaust survivor. She lays out

2355
02:01:58,280 --> 02:02:01,680
Speaker 9: a pretty strong case for like, you know, early twentieth

2356
02:02:01,720 --> 02:02:05,720
Speaker 9: century Germany having this poisonous pedagogy that also involved beating

2357
02:02:05,760 --> 02:02:07,640
Speaker 9: the shit out of your kids until I was like

2358
02:02:07,720 --> 02:02:12,120
Speaker 9: illegal to love your children, yeah, to obey you, and

2359
02:02:13,000 --> 02:02:15,280
Speaker 9: how basically this is how you make a torture.

2360
02:02:15,800 --> 02:02:16,960
Speaker 10: And the book is called for.

2361
02:02:16,880 --> 02:02:21,840
Speaker 9: Your Own Good and yeah, I mean I really think

2362
02:02:21,880 --> 02:02:26,680
Speaker 9: it is like under valued in politics, Like how much

2363
02:02:26,880 --> 02:02:31,360
Speaker 9: this culture of corporal punishment, which is yeah, Americans have

2364
02:02:31,520 --> 02:02:36,240
Speaker 9: like moved away from universal approval of corporal punishment, we're

2365
02:02:36,280 --> 02:02:39,400
Speaker 9: still like a lot higher than other Western democracies in

2366
02:02:39,400 --> 02:02:42,520
Speaker 9: that regard. And like on a national level, we're the

2367
02:02:42,520 --> 02:02:46,400
Speaker 9: only country in the world that hasn't ratified the UN

2368
02:02:46,560 --> 02:02:49,080
Speaker 9: Conventions on the Rights of a Child, which include like

2369
02:02:49,760 --> 02:02:52,240
Speaker 9: having a name and like not being beaten and not

2370
02:02:52,280 --> 02:02:55,440
Speaker 9: being thrown into like juvie solitary.

2371
02:02:55,760 --> 02:02:58,920
Speaker 8: Oh well, that's why America can't touch that. We need

2372
02:02:58,960 --> 02:02:59,960
Speaker 8: to incarcerate the children.

2373
02:03:00,960 --> 02:03:02,839
Speaker 10: Yeah, the children yearn for the cells.

2374
02:03:03,520 --> 02:03:06,040
Speaker 9: But it's also just like a lot of it actually

2375
02:03:06,560 --> 02:03:10,320
Speaker 9: was like worries that like evangelicals like would sort of

2376
02:03:10,360 --> 02:03:13,080
Speaker 9: object to the the interference in there.

2377
02:03:13,200 --> 02:03:15,840
Speaker 8: It's an infringement on their religious freedom to be the

2378
02:03:15,920 --> 02:03:16,960
Speaker 8: shit out of babies.

2379
02:03:17,520 --> 02:03:22,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, and their parental rights, which is another buzzword of this.

2380
02:03:21,960 --> 02:03:24,640
Speaker 8: This movement pnal rights is a red flag for me.

2381
02:03:25,400 --> 02:03:27,720
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, no, I hear parental rights and I think

2382
02:03:27,800 --> 02:03:29,600
Speaker 9: you want to beat the shit out of your kids.

2383
02:03:30,000 --> 02:03:31,640
Speaker 8: You don't want your children to learn science.

2384
02:03:31,800 --> 02:03:35,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, you at a homeschool and under educate your kids

2385
02:03:36,040 --> 02:03:37,240
Speaker 9: or miseducate.

2386
02:03:37,720 --> 02:03:41,040
Speaker 8: You want to cause a Measle's outbreak exactly.

2387
02:03:41,520 --> 02:03:43,800
Speaker 9: But that's like for us because we're weirdos. We're like

2388
02:03:44,200 --> 02:03:48,280
Speaker 9: obsessively clued into this stuff. If you're not, Like parental

2389
02:03:48,360 --> 02:03:51,720
Speaker 9: rights is like religious freedom is, like it sounds good, Yeah,

2390
02:03:51,720 --> 02:03:55,000
Speaker 9: it's an effective marketing slogan, but like what it means

2391
02:03:55,080 --> 02:03:56,560
Speaker 9: is like we're going to show up at the school

2392
02:03:56,560 --> 02:03:59,200
Speaker 9: board and yell about how I mean.

2393
02:03:59,720 --> 02:04:00,919
Speaker 10: And Trump is like bought.

2394
02:04:00,680 --> 02:04:04,440
Speaker 9: Into this obviously because he knows where his bread is buttered.

2395
02:04:04,480 --> 02:04:07,919
Speaker 9: He has savvy, Like he's like you guys do the policy.

2396
02:04:08,080 --> 02:04:12,000
Speaker 9: But like his current parental rights based his biggest like

2397
02:04:12,040 --> 02:04:15,520
Speaker 9: policy that he's advocating is like denying federal funding to

2398
02:04:15,560 --> 02:04:18,839
Speaker 9: any school with any vaccine a mandate, which is basically

2399
02:04:18,920 --> 02:04:23,680
Speaker 9: just like make measles great again, like bring back diphtheria.

2400
02:04:24,520 --> 02:04:26,960
Speaker 9: I think, like, yes, the Maga movement, ister of the

2401
02:04:27,360 --> 02:04:31,200
Speaker 9: the efflorescence, the apotheosis of this steadily building power, but

2402
02:04:31,280 --> 02:04:35,120
Speaker 9: like there's also just like fifty years of power building

2403
02:04:35,160 --> 02:04:37,920
Speaker 9: behind it. And like even if Trump was defeated at

2404
02:04:37,920 --> 02:04:40,480
Speaker 9: the federal level, which like I profoundly hope he is

2405
02:04:41,040 --> 02:04:43,960
Speaker 9: sorry to come out as like a you know, partisan

2406
02:04:44,080 --> 02:04:48,800
Speaker 9: a voter, like a hashtag a voter, but like I

2407
02:04:48,840 --> 02:04:53,840
Speaker 9: think it would be just a nauseatingly it's a horrifying

2408
02:04:53,920 --> 02:04:56,600
Speaker 9: thought that he I mean, first of all, you would

2409
02:04:56,600 --> 02:05:00,960
Speaker 9: absolutely enact every item in this theocratic agenda, starting with

2410
02:05:01,040 --> 02:05:03,040
Speaker 9: a national abortion band like that would happen in the

2411
02:05:03,080 --> 02:05:07,960
Speaker 9: first hundred days, I think, which would just functionally plunge

2412
02:05:08,000 --> 02:05:13,800
Speaker 9: American women into like a very very dark septocemic nightmare.

2413
02:05:14,160 --> 02:05:16,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, the dark place that we're going as a coffin.

2414
02:05:17,080 --> 02:05:22,160
Speaker 9: Yeah yeah, yeah. But even should he lose, which you know, hope.

2415
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:26,320
Speaker 9: There's still twenty two states where abortion is outlawed or

2416
02:05:26,360 --> 02:05:32,560
Speaker 9: severely restricted, and these places are becoming care deserts.

2417
02:05:33,000 --> 02:05:34,360
Speaker 10: Like medical residents.

2418
02:05:34,960 --> 02:05:38,520
Speaker 9: My extremely sexy partner is a medical residen so I

2419
02:05:39,080 --> 02:05:43,080
Speaker 9: know more about the state of medicine than I otherwise would.

2420
02:05:43,240 --> 02:05:46,320
Speaker 9: But like residents don't want to do their residencies in

2421
02:05:46,400 --> 02:05:47,880
Speaker 9: states with abortion restrictions.

2422
02:05:47,920 --> 02:05:49,560
Speaker 10: They're like, right, given.

2423
02:05:49,360 --> 02:05:54,920
Speaker 8: A choice, gynecological providers just aren't practicing there anymore. Like

2424
02:05:54,960 --> 02:05:58,680
Speaker 8: even if you know, even your primary focus is not abortions,

2425
02:05:58,760 --> 02:06:01,360
Speaker 8: or even if your primary focus is you know, pregnancy care,

2426
02:06:02,120 --> 02:06:03,240
Speaker 8: they just don't want to They just don't want to

2427
02:06:03,240 --> 02:06:03,680
Speaker 8: work there.

2428
02:06:04,040 --> 02:06:06,440
Speaker 9: Well, also, first of all that, but second of all,

2429
02:06:06,480 --> 02:06:08,120
Speaker 9: it's like, if you're in the er, you're going to

2430
02:06:08,160 --> 02:06:11,800
Speaker 9: experience pregnancy loss because it happens in one in five pregnancy.

2431
02:06:11,440 --> 02:06:13,480
Speaker 8: Right, So they're choosing to work in states where they're

2432
02:06:13,480 --> 02:06:15,280
Speaker 8: not going to go to jail for doing medicine.

2433
02:06:15,440 --> 02:06:18,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, Like they don't want to incur the moral injury

2434
02:06:18,160 --> 02:06:20,160
Speaker 9: of not being able to apply the standard of care

2435
02:06:20,760 --> 02:06:25,000
Speaker 9: to patients in extremely common situations such as incomplete miscarriage

2436
02:06:25,120 --> 02:06:29,800
Speaker 9: and you know, pregnancy loss, whether you know self induced

2437
02:06:30,320 --> 02:06:34,160
Speaker 9: or just like miscarriage is super common and nobody talks

2438
02:06:34,160 --> 02:06:34,760
Speaker 9: about it.

2439
02:06:34,760 --> 02:06:37,800
Speaker 8: It's more common than we an Ectopic pregnancy is so

2440
02:06:37,920 --> 02:06:39,840
Speaker 8: much more common than people realize. Like there are so

2441
02:06:39,880 --> 02:06:41,880
Speaker 8: many things that your body can do to betray you

2442
02:06:42,000 --> 02:06:45,320
Speaker 8: that you need a doctor's help with just ordinary pregnancy.

2443
02:06:45,480 --> 02:06:47,680
Speaker 8: And then after the baby is born, then your lustrous

2444
02:06:47,720 --> 02:06:48,520
Speaker 8: hair all falls out.

2445
02:06:48,920 --> 02:06:53,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, like ordinary pregnancy is so fraught with like weird

2446
02:06:53,320 --> 02:06:56,600
Speaker 9: body horror like, but anyway, that's besides the point.

2447
02:06:56,760 --> 02:06:57,120
Speaker 10: Whatever.

2448
02:06:57,240 --> 02:07:00,480
Speaker 9: The point is someone presents with abdominal pain and er

2449
02:07:00,960 --> 02:07:02,960
Speaker 9: and it turns out to be an a topic pregnancy,

2450
02:07:03,440 --> 02:07:07,879
Speaker 9: and like you can't do standard of care like dilation

2451
02:07:08,040 --> 02:07:12,720
Speaker 9: and cure tash procedures without checking with the hospital lawyer.

2452
02:07:12,880 --> 02:07:17,120
Speaker 9: Like that is a really bad position for a care

2453
02:07:17,160 --> 02:07:19,840
Speaker 9: provider to be in. So when you have these fundamentally

2454
02:07:19,960 --> 02:07:24,080
Speaker 9: unscientific laws, right that are produced by people who don't

2455
02:07:24,120 --> 02:07:29,480
Speaker 9: know anything about pregnancy and are like very intentionally ambiguous

2456
02:07:29,640 --> 02:07:33,840
Speaker 9: so that cautious institutions will sort of interpret them at

2457
02:07:34,160 --> 02:07:37,840
Speaker 9: maximally interpret them. Like the life of the mother, how

2458
02:07:37,880 --> 02:07:38,880
Speaker 9: dead does she have to be?

2459
02:07:39,040 --> 02:07:39,400
Speaker 6: First?

2460
02:07:39,680 --> 02:07:42,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, she has to be almost dead, right, and then

2461
02:07:42,680 --> 02:07:46,680
Speaker 9: sometimes she winds up dying because almost dead is tough

2462
02:07:46,720 --> 02:07:50,440
Speaker 9: to judge, Like, it just winds up this grotesque sort

2463
02:07:50,480 --> 02:07:55,080
Speaker 9: of farce of medicine and very directly, like residents don't

2464
02:07:55,120 --> 02:07:57,839
Speaker 9: want to train, doctors don't want to practice in these places,

2465
02:07:57,880 --> 02:07:58,800
Speaker 9: and so, you.

2466
02:07:58,680 --> 02:08:01,720
Speaker 8: Know, right, so this ends up killing more people than

2467
02:08:02,040 --> 02:08:04,600
Speaker 8: just the ones hemorrhaging in the parking lot. There are

2468
02:08:04,600 --> 02:08:07,640
Speaker 8: people who have completely unrelated problems who are now unable

2469
02:08:07,680 --> 02:08:11,000
Speaker 8: to access unrelated kinds of care because the doctors just

2470
02:08:11,000 --> 02:08:11,480
Speaker 8: aren't there.

2471
02:08:11,760 --> 02:08:15,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, Or people who have ordinary wanted pregnancies who can't

2472
02:08:15,280 --> 02:08:17,880
Speaker 9: access neonatal care, who have to drive hours and hours

2473
02:08:17,880 --> 02:08:21,280
Speaker 9: and hours to like get checkups, like you know, I mean,

2474
02:08:21,520 --> 02:08:25,720
Speaker 9: human reproduction is like a pretty major part of like life.

2475
02:08:25,960 --> 02:08:27,600
Speaker 7: And a lot of people are doing it.

2476
02:08:28,080 --> 02:08:30,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, like it's sort of how you know, it's just

2477
02:08:30,920 --> 02:08:33,600
Speaker 9: people do it all the time, and like not being

2478
02:08:33,640 --> 02:08:37,200
Speaker 9: able to access medical care around like the entire spectrum

2479
02:08:37,200 --> 02:08:41,200
Speaker 9: of like reproduction is pretty catastrophic. But yeah, it also

2480
02:08:41,280 --> 02:08:45,320
Speaker 9: impacts all the people not engaging in reproduction at this

2481
02:08:45,400 --> 02:08:48,200
Speaker 9: moment in time, like doctors who are just like fuck this,

2482
02:08:48,280 --> 02:08:50,920
Speaker 9: I'm not wearing out a dar in Tennessee, you know,

2483
02:08:51,000 --> 02:08:53,240
Speaker 9: because I want to be able to treat patients.

2484
02:08:52,920 --> 02:08:54,240
Speaker 7: Without a lawyer in the room.

2485
02:08:54,440 --> 02:08:55,640
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

2486
02:08:55,800 --> 02:08:57,640
Speaker 9: I mean, and then there are doctors who are bigots

2487
02:08:57,640 --> 02:09:01,560
Speaker 9: and doctors who are happily on board with with abortion bands.

2488
02:09:02,040 --> 02:09:03,640
Speaker 9: But like, do you want that to be the only

2489
02:09:03,720 --> 02:09:06,360
Speaker 9: doctor in your county? I don't think so, you know,

2490
02:09:06,480 --> 02:09:10,400
Speaker 9: it's just it's a really grim situation. And I just like,

2491
02:09:10,520 --> 02:09:13,360
Speaker 9: I'm such an absolutist about bodily autonomy. It's like, if

2492
02:09:13,400 --> 02:09:16,520
Speaker 9: you don't own your body, you are not a full citizen, period,

2493
02:09:16,680 --> 02:09:19,720
Speaker 9: end of story. Like if if a major organ in

2494
02:09:19,720 --> 02:09:23,120
Speaker 9: your body is treated as a controlled substance, like you

2495
02:09:23,160 --> 02:09:27,080
Speaker 9: are not a full and equal citizen with rights, which

2496
02:09:27,080 --> 02:09:27,760
Speaker 9: I would like to be.

2497
02:09:28,560 --> 02:09:31,080
Speaker 8: I aspire to it. Yeah, So I want to ask

2498
02:09:31,120 --> 02:09:33,200
Speaker 8: you one more question about your book and I will

2499
02:09:33,280 --> 02:09:35,120
Speaker 8: let you go. I told you that I wouldn't keep

2500
02:09:35,160 --> 02:09:36,440
Speaker 8: you very long, and I lied.

2501
02:09:37,920 --> 02:09:41,440
Speaker 9: But it's like, it's just because I like talking to you.

2502
02:09:41,480 --> 02:09:45,080
Speaker 10: So it's I think I've done the majority of the topics.

2503
02:09:45,120 --> 02:09:45,440
Speaker 3: You can't.

2504
02:09:45,560 --> 02:09:49,920
Speaker 9: You can't be like, oh, it's about your book, which

2505
02:09:50,200 --> 02:09:53,040
Speaker 9: you should buy listeners.

2506
02:09:53,440 --> 02:09:55,320
Speaker 8: Pre order it now wherever you buy a books.

2507
02:09:55,600 --> 02:09:57,960
Speaker 9: And if you like the delcent tones of my voice,

2508
02:09:58,000 --> 02:10:00,280
Speaker 9: which are I shouldn't have had you to I rate

2509
02:10:00,280 --> 02:10:00,960
Speaker 9: in my audience books.

2510
02:10:01,000 --> 02:10:02,640
Speaker 10: You brush that passage.

2511
02:10:02,760 --> 02:10:04,640
Speaker 8: I'm a professional talker now, yeah.

2512
02:10:04,720 --> 02:10:07,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, well I narrated the audio book and then was like,

2513
02:10:07,720 --> 02:10:09,720
Speaker 9: why did I write such complicated sentences?

2514
02:10:09,800 --> 02:10:10,400
Speaker 10: Afterwards?

2515
02:10:11,320 --> 02:10:14,040
Speaker 8: So now that I read my own writing like on

2516
02:10:14,080 --> 02:10:16,720
Speaker 8: a regular basis out loud, which is new for me. Right,

2517
02:10:16,760 --> 02:10:18,360
Speaker 8: so you know, I have my podcast and I'm writing

2518
02:10:18,400 --> 02:10:20,920
Speaker 8: my little scripts and then I'm reading into a little microphone.

2519
02:10:21,640 --> 02:10:24,560
Speaker 8: Now that I struggle with that. I noticed while I

2520
02:10:24,600 --> 02:10:26,240
Speaker 8: was reading your book that oh I wouldn't be able

2521
02:10:26,240 --> 02:10:30,400
Speaker 8: to read this out loud. Where would I breathe? I

2522
02:10:30,440 --> 02:10:32,240
Speaker 8: know it was because I write like that too, and

2523
02:10:32,280 --> 02:10:34,160
Speaker 8: it's something I'm like really grappling with right now.

2524
02:10:34,520 --> 02:10:36,200
Speaker 10: She's like call me ten clubs.

2525
02:10:36,680 --> 02:10:39,680
Speaker 9: I'm like, ah, fuck, this sentence is this paragraph? This

2526
02:10:39,760 --> 02:10:41,720
Speaker 9: sentence is a paragraph. Stop it.

2527
02:10:41,760 --> 02:10:44,400
Speaker 8: Like I really really lost, really lost momentum on that one.

2528
02:10:44,480 --> 02:10:47,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, I know, but like I managed to get through it.

2529
02:10:47,600 --> 02:10:50,040
Speaker 9: And if you if you enjoy the dulcage sounds of

2530
02:10:50,080 --> 02:10:52,200
Speaker 9: my voice, you can hear it for like I don't know,

2531
02:10:52,240 --> 02:10:55,800
Speaker 9: eight hours or whatever. I as so weird being like

2532
02:10:55,920 --> 02:10:58,880
Speaker 9: listen to my voice, but you know, invite me into

2533
02:10:58,880 --> 02:11:02,840
Speaker 9: your mind. Yeah, but I do think it's nice as

2534
02:11:02,840 --> 02:11:05,480
Speaker 9: an author to read your audiobook because I can like

2535
02:11:05,560 --> 02:11:08,480
Speaker 9: get mad and like, you know, emphasize stuff that I

2536
02:11:08,520 --> 02:11:09,400
Speaker 9: think is important.

2537
02:11:09,560 --> 02:11:11,440
Speaker 10: And also I'm a.

2538
02:11:11,360 --> 02:11:16,000
Speaker 9: Theater kid, like, like, I don't have many opportunities to perform,

2539
02:11:16,680 --> 02:11:19,200
Speaker 9: and it is a performance and it's it's fun.

2540
02:11:19,400 --> 02:11:21,480
Speaker 8: But yeah, and that comes out at the same time

2541
02:11:21,560 --> 02:11:22,720
Speaker 8: as the physical book.

2542
02:11:23,320 --> 02:11:27,880
Speaker 9: Yes, it comes out audio ebook, physical book with a

2543
02:11:27,920 --> 02:11:28,960
Speaker 9: cool snake on it.

2544
02:11:29,400 --> 02:11:31,920
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, Oh, I guess this is an audio medium.

2545
02:11:31,920 --> 02:11:34,560
Speaker 8: The listener can't see that I'm showing the cool cover.

2546
02:11:35,360 --> 02:11:38,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's got a cool snake, a red and black

2547
02:11:38,040 --> 02:11:40,520
Speaker 9: snake on the cover. I've named him Rocco. He has

2548
02:11:40,560 --> 02:11:43,480
Speaker 9: a cross for a tongue. If you're looking for a

2549
02:11:43,520 --> 02:11:46,080
Speaker 9: book to give to the metal head in your life,

2550
02:11:46,120 --> 02:11:50,800
Speaker 9: oh yeah, it's metal heads, atheists, degenerates.

2551
02:11:52,040 --> 02:11:54,480
Speaker 10: Everyone is going to love this book.

2552
02:11:54,480 --> 02:11:55,680
Speaker 8: It's perfect for everyone.

2553
02:11:56,240 --> 02:11:59,320
Speaker 10: And if you're light on cash flow want it.

2554
02:11:59,360 --> 02:12:02,200
Speaker 9: For supporting the authors is ask your library to stock

2555
02:12:02,280 --> 02:12:06,760
Speaker 9: it or your local bookstore, because library orders are really

2556
02:12:06,800 --> 02:12:08,760
Speaker 9: important and you can just like put in a request

2557
02:12:08,760 --> 02:12:12,839
Speaker 9: in your library system and that is super helpful.

2558
02:12:12,880 --> 02:12:15,480
Speaker 8: Hell yeah, everybody go to your library's website right now

2559
02:12:15,520 --> 02:12:18,400
Speaker 8: and request that they purchase a copy of Wild Faith

2560
02:12:18,480 --> 02:12:22,879
Speaker 8: by Talia Lavin. Yeah, tallywhere else can people find you online?

2561
02:12:23,800 --> 02:12:27,600
Speaker 9: So I have a newsletter. It's on button down. I

2562
02:12:27,680 --> 02:12:30,440
Speaker 9: left Substack because they were like, we're never going to

2563
02:12:30,520 --> 02:12:33,560
Speaker 9: censor Nazis, but we will sensor porn. And I was like,

2564
02:12:33,600 --> 02:12:35,600
Speaker 9: I don't like your priorities, so I left for button down.

2565
02:12:35,760 --> 02:12:39,160
Speaker 9: So it's buttondown dot com. Slash the Sword in the Sandwich,

2566
02:12:39,240 --> 02:12:41,120
Speaker 9: or if you just google, the Sword in the Sandwich

2567
02:12:41,240 --> 02:12:44,320
Speaker 9: comes up. Most Tuesdays I write about like the horrific

2568
02:12:44,320 --> 02:12:48,880
Speaker 9: state of politics, et cetera. And then Fridays I write

2569
02:12:48,880 --> 02:12:52,520
Speaker 9: an essay about a different sandwich on Wikipedia's list of

2570
02:12:52,560 --> 02:12:56,360
Speaker 9: notable sandwiches, and so far I've written one hundred and

2571
02:12:56,440 --> 02:12:58,560
Speaker 9: eleven sandwiches.

2572
02:12:59,080 --> 02:13:02,120
Speaker 8: The sandwich content alone is worth the price of admission.

2573
02:13:02,160 --> 02:13:04,160
Speaker 8: You need to find out about these sandwiches.

2574
02:13:04,840 --> 02:13:07,520
Speaker 9: I mean it just and I get really deep into

2575
02:13:07,560 --> 02:13:11,640
Speaker 9: like the history and the provenance and like like ah,

2576
02:13:11,680 --> 02:13:15,440
Speaker 9: the shifting of people's led to this sandwich. But so

2577
02:13:15,480 --> 02:13:18,440
Speaker 9: I get really deep into it, and then you can

2578
02:13:18,440 --> 02:13:20,760
Speaker 9: also find me on Blue Sky, where I most of

2579
02:13:20,800 --> 02:13:23,880
Speaker 9: the time now because Twitter is just like robots and

2580
02:13:24,040 --> 02:13:28,160
Speaker 9: Nazis and Nazi robots. Where I'm at Swords Jew. I'm

2581
02:13:28,200 --> 02:13:33,400
Speaker 9: still on Vishy Twitter as Mobi Dick Energy, and you know,

2582
02:13:33,800 --> 02:13:36,480
Speaker 9: if you want to say hi or invite me to

2583
02:13:36,520 --> 02:13:40,400
Speaker 9: speak at your synagogue or bookstore, I'm at Tealill even

2584
02:13:40,400 --> 02:13:42,680
Speaker 9: writes at gmail dot com.

2585
02:13:42,800 --> 02:13:44,600
Speaker 10: Or church if you're like cool.

2586
02:13:44,880 --> 02:13:48,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, if it's like a cool church, Yeah, you show

2587
02:13:48,280 --> 02:13:49,960
Speaker 8: up and they pass you a snake.

2588
02:13:50,320 --> 02:13:51,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

2589
02:13:51,720 --> 02:13:54,240
Speaker 10: Oh God, I didn't do enough speaking of times for

2590
02:13:54,280 --> 02:13:54,680
Speaker 10: this book.

2591
02:13:55,160 --> 02:13:58,800
Speaker 8: Well, Telly, thank you so much for coming on today again.

2592
02:13:58,880 --> 02:14:01,600
Speaker 8: The book is Wild Faith by Talia Lavin, and you

2593
02:14:01,680 --> 02:14:04,320
Speaker 8: can pre order it now wherever books are sold, and

2594
02:14:04,360 --> 02:14:06,480
Speaker 8: you should request it from your library.

2595
02:14:07,120 --> 02:14:11,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, we stand civic services, and I'm a huge fan

2596
02:14:11,120 --> 02:14:15,120
Speaker 9: of public libraries and also of Molly Conger.

2597
02:14:15,240 --> 02:14:19,480
Speaker 10: So thanks for having me on and take care, Bye.

2598
02:14:19,640 --> 02:14:44,160
Speaker 1: Bye, Welcome back to It Could Happen Here and our

2599
02:14:44,240 --> 02:14:49,320
Speaker 1: special two part series Irregular Naval Warfare and You, where

2600
02:14:49,400 --> 02:14:52,919
Speaker 1: James and I teach you how you too can challenge

2601
02:14:52,960 --> 02:14:56,360
Speaker 1: the US Navy's dominance of the seas, or at least

2602
02:14:56,400 --> 02:15:01,000
Speaker 1: the coasts for fun and profit. Actually, today, last episode

2603
02:15:01,040 --> 02:15:04,360
Speaker 1: we talked about people challenging the US Navy's coastal dominance.

2604
02:15:04,400 --> 02:15:07,000
Speaker 1: Today we're talking about doing the same thing for the

2605
02:15:07,120 --> 02:15:09,960
Speaker 1: Russian Navy. So that's gonna be fun. And of course

2606
02:15:10,280 --> 02:15:12,560
Speaker 1: the Navy of mianmar which is a bit of a

2607
02:15:12,560 --> 02:15:15,240
Speaker 1: different class from the US and Russian Navy, but no

2608
02:15:15,400 --> 02:15:16,160
Speaker 1: less interesting.

2609
02:15:17,120 --> 02:15:19,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, still fun. I'd love to see a boat lose.

2610
02:15:19,640 --> 02:15:21,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I just like boats going down, you know,

2611
02:15:21,720 --> 02:15:22,480
Speaker 1: I just hate a boat.

2612
02:15:22,560 --> 02:15:26,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, US, the jocas many many such cases.

2613
02:15:27,400 --> 02:15:29,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to start with Ukraine, and then we're going

2614
02:15:29,400 --> 02:15:31,160
Speaker 1: to throw to James to talk about our friends in

2615
02:15:31,240 --> 02:15:35,839
Speaker 1: Myanmar and how they have repurposed civilian technology and stolen

2616
02:15:35,880 --> 02:15:40,000
Speaker 1: weapons to counter a navy without really having one of

2617
02:15:40,040 --> 02:15:44,160
Speaker 1: their own. But first Ukraine. In twenty fourteen, when the

2618
02:15:44,200 --> 02:15:47,640
Speaker 1: Russian Army invaded eastern Ukraine and took Crimea, Ukraine lost

2619
02:15:47,680 --> 02:15:51,080
Speaker 1: a significant portion of it's already not that impressive navy.

2620
02:15:51,560 --> 02:15:54,360
Speaker 1: Most of their boats were just taken by Russia, along

2621
02:15:54,360 --> 02:15:56,840
Speaker 1: with a number of sailors who defected, a lot of

2622
02:15:56,880 --> 02:15:59,560
Speaker 1: other sailors fled the region, leaving behind their homes and

2623
02:15:59,560 --> 02:16:02,480
Speaker 1: cities like Sebastopol to continue serving their country in a

2624
02:16:02,520 --> 02:16:06,240
Speaker 1: war that a decade later is still ongoing. One of

2625
02:16:06,240 --> 02:16:08,720
Speaker 1: these sailors, who is a Sebastopol native and had to

2626
02:16:08,760 --> 02:16:12,320
Speaker 1: flee his home, possibly forever, in order to continue serving

2627
02:16:12,360 --> 02:16:16,800
Speaker 1: his country, is the current commander of Ukraine's navy, Admiral Nazpapa.

2628
02:16:17,120 --> 02:16:20,240
Speaker 1: He leads a navy that is almost without manned ships,

2629
02:16:20,280 --> 02:16:23,760
Speaker 1: and on paper, it is utterly incapable of challenging Russia's

2630
02:16:23,800 --> 02:16:26,879
Speaker 1: legendary Black Sea Fleet. Since the age of the Czars,

2631
02:16:26,920 --> 02:16:29,320
Speaker 1: the Black Sea Fleet has been infamous as a pillar

2632
02:16:29,360 --> 02:16:33,560
Speaker 1: of Russian military power. However, also since the age of

2633
02:16:33,560 --> 02:16:36,200
Speaker 1: the Tsars, it's had a nasty tendency to get utterly

2634
02:16:36,240 --> 02:16:38,800
Speaker 1: housed by enemies that should have been able to beat.

2635
02:16:38,640 --> 02:16:42,240
Speaker 2: It, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, not the first time it's

2636
02:16:42,280 --> 02:16:43,600
Speaker 2: taken an unexpected loot.

2637
02:16:43,840 --> 02:16:44,080
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2638
02:16:44,320 --> 02:16:46,720
Speaker 1: It has a legendary history that doesn't mean good.

2639
02:16:46,760 --> 02:16:52,440
Speaker 2: There's bad legends out there, you know. Yeah, it's well known. Yeah,

2640
02:16:52,520 --> 02:16:53,119
Speaker 2: today that.

2641
02:16:53,200 --> 02:16:56,760
Speaker 1: Enemy is Ukraine. Since the expanded Russian invasion in twenty

2642
02:16:56,800 --> 02:17:00,760
Speaker 1: twenty two, just two years, Ukraine has destroyed or badly

2643
02:17:00,840 --> 02:17:03,680
Speaker 1: damaged more than a third of the Black Sea fleet,

2644
02:17:03,920 --> 02:17:06,640
Speaker 1: despite having no battleships or destroyers in the sea to

2645
02:17:06,680 --> 02:17:09,879
Speaker 1: counter Russian naval power, they have done enough damage to

2646
02:17:10,040 --> 02:17:13,200
Speaker 1: reopen Odessa and at least one other port on the

2647
02:17:13,200 --> 02:17:16,320
Speaker 1: Black Sea to international commerce, which has provided Ukraine with

2648
02:17:16,360 --> 02:17:20,359
Speaker 1: a crucial economic and strategic lifeline. And that's a remarkable achievement,

2649
02:17:20,400 --> 02:17:23,439
Speaker 1: sinking a third of the Black Sea fleet. And basically

2650
02:17:23,600 --> 02:17:25,400
Speaker 1: when you reopen a port, that means that you have

2651
02:17:25,520 --> 02:17:28,480
Speaker 1: taken away naval dominance from a country that has a

2652
02:17:28,560 --> 02:17:32,959
Speaker 1: navy and you don't. That's pretty good, pretty good stuff.

2653
02:17:34,480 --> 02:17:37,760
Speaker 1: Over the last two years, Ukraine had damaged, irreparably or

2654
02:17:37,840 --> 02:17:41,560
Speaker 1: sunk seven active landing ships and one to seven active

2655
02:17:41,640 --> 02:17:44,760
Speaker 1: landing ships and one landing vessel. I don't know the difference.

2656
02:17:44,840 --> 02:17:47,439
Speaker 1: They've fucked up a lot of boats. They have destroyed

2657
02:17:47,440 --> 02:17:50,920
Speaker 1: a submarine with seed to ground capability that was docked

2658
02:17:50,920 --> 02:17:53,800
Speaker 1: for repairs. They have sunk a cruiser, the capital ship

2659
02:17:53,800 --> 02:17:55,359
Speaker 1: of the entire Black Sea fleet.

2660
02:17:55,120 --> 02:17:55,960
Speaker 2: The Moskva.

2661
02:17:56,200 --> 02:17:58,560
Speaker 1: They've also sunk a supply vessel and a handful of

2662
02:17:58,560 --> 02:18:01,080
Speaker 1: patrol boats and missile bow and a number of other

2663
02:18:01,120 --> 02:18:04,359
Speaker 1: boats have been damaged. That's a significant rate of casualties,

2664
02:18:04,680 --> 02:18:07,720
Speaker 1: especially when you consider that every actually destroyed vessel, we're

2665
02:18:07,760 --> 02:18:11,440
Speaker 1: looking at a year's multiple years lead time to replace.

2666
02:18:11,840 --> 02:18:16,480
Speaker 1: You cannot make naval vessels very quickly anymore. Back during

2667
02:18:16,720 --> 02:18:20,680
Speaker 1: the big dub dub dose, the US did, but nobody

2668
02:18:20,680 --> 02:18:24,920
Speaker 1: really does that anymore, not with the big ones at least.

2669
02:18:24,640 --> 02:18:26,280
Speaker 2: You just roll through that.

2670
02:18:26,520 --> 02:18:30,000
Speaker 1: We were just we were just yeating aircraft carriers into.

2671
02:18:29,800 --> 02:18:33,680
Speaker 2: The sea, just just flotting them out. Yeah, don't take

2672
02:18:33,680 --> 02:18:36,920
Speaker 2: them out a week. Yeah, it's because it's because Rosy

2673
02:18:36,959 --> 02:18:39,480
Speaker 2: de Riveto was really riveting at a high speed.

2674
02:18:39,640 --> 02:18:42,000
Speaker 1: She was, she was, she was quite a riveter. So

2675
02:18:42,080 --> 02:18:45,280
Speaker 1: at the start of hostilities, Turkey, which controls access to

2676
02:18:45,320 --> 02:18:49,039
Speaker 1: the Black Sea forbade any additional military vessels, or at

2677
02:18:49,080 --> 02:18:52,040
Speaker 1: least military vessels of significant size, from entering the area.

2678
02:18:52,280 --> 02:18:55,000
Speaker 1: What this means this has a significant impact on how

2679
02:18:55,080 --> 02:18:58,560
Speaker 1: well Ukraine strikes work, because even if Russia can replace

2680
02:18:58,600 --> 02:19:01,600
Speaker 1: the losses physically, they can can't actually get replacements into

2681
02:19:01,600 --> 02:19:04,360
Speaker 1: the Black Sea easily. They can't sail new shit past

2682
02:19:04,400 --> 02:19:06,959
Speaker 1: the Turks. The Turks are not allowing that right now.

2683
02:19:07,000 --> 02:19:09,959
Speaker 1: So again this is a situation that has kind of

2684
02:19:10,000 --> 02:19:13,640
Speaker 1: favored the way in which Ukraine has adapted to countering

2685
02:19:13,720 --> 02:19:16,800
Speaker 1: Russian naval dominance. It is possible that at the present

2686
02:19:16,879 --> 02:19:19,279
Speaker 1: rate of attrition, the Black Sea Fleet could be rendered

2687
02:19:19,320 --> 02:19:22,360
Speaker 1: inoperable in less than two years. Like if they keep

2688
02:19:22,360 --> 02:19:24,400
Speaker 1: going at this rates, like eighteen months or something before,

2689
02:19:24,400 --> 02:19:27,160
Speaker 1: there's not really much of a fleet anymore now. If

2690
02:19:27,280 --> 02:19:30,600
Speaker 1: Ukraine had accomplished this task with a traditional navy using

2691
02:19:30,680 --> 02:19:33,959
Speaker 1: standard naval tactics, this would have been an impressive victory

2692
02:19:34,160 --> 02:19:36,959
Speaker 1: given the disparity in resources between the two nations. But

2693
02:19:37,000 --> 02:19:39,040
Speaker 1: they have done all this with a mix of cruise missiles,

2694
02:19:39,080 --> 02:19:42,080
Speaker 1: many of which are produced in country, aerial drones, and

2695
02:19:42,160 --> 02:19:47,039
Speaker 1: new bespoke locally produced suicide drone boats. This irregular naval

2696
02:19:47,080 --> 02:19:50,160
Speaker 1: warfare has been successful enough that one Rand Corporation engineer

2697
02:19:50,160 --> 02:19:53,040
Speaker 1: and analyst, Scott Savatz, described the Black Sea Fleet as

2698
02:19:53,080 --> 02:19:56,920
Speaker 1: a fleet in being quote, it represents a potential threat

2699
02:19:56,920 --> 02:19:59,200
Speaker 1: that needs to be vigilantly guarded against, but one that

2700
02:19:59,240 --> 02:20:01,920
Speaker 1: remains in checks for now. And I'm going to quote

2701
02:20:01,959 --> 02:20:04,400
Speaker 1: from a New York Times article on the topic. It

2702
02:20:04,480 --> 02:20:08,000
Speaker 1: brought a little more context. Ukraine has effectively turned around

2703
02:20:08,000 --> 02:20:10,400
Speaker 1: ten thousand square miles in the western Black Sea off

2704
02:20:10,440 --> 02:20:13,359
Speaker 1: its southern coast, into what the military calls a gray zone,

2705
02:20:13,480 --> 02:20:15,920
Speaker 1: where neither side can sail without the threat of attack.

2706
02:20:16,440 --> 02:20:19,800
Speaker 1: James Heapy, Britain's Armed Forces minister, told a recent security

2707
02:20:19,800 --> 02:20:22,400
Speaker 1: conference in Warsaw that Russia's Black Sea fleet had suffered

2708
02:20:22,440 --> 02:20:25,720
Speaker 1: a functional defeat, and contended that the liberation of Ukraine's

2709
02:20:25,720 --> 02:20:27,720
Speaker 1: coastal waters in the Black Sea was every bit as

2710
02:20:27,760 --> 02:20:31,040
Speaker 1: important as the successful counter offensives on land and Cersona

2711
02:20:31,040 --> 02:20:34,280
Speaker 1: and Kharkiv last year. The classical approach that we studied

2712
02:20:34,280 --> 02:20:37,440
Speaker 1: at military maritime academies does not work now, Admiral Nese

2713
02:20:37,480 --> 02:20:39,960
Speaker 1: Papas said. Therefore, we have to be as flexible as

2714
02:20:39,959 --> 02:20:42,680
Speaker 1: possible and change approaches to planning and implementing work as

2715
02:20:42,760 --> 02:20:45,360
Speaker 1: much as possible, not at articles about a year old

2716
02:20:45,400 --> 02:20:46,240
Speaker 1: or so.

2717
02:20:46,240 --> 02:20:46,360
Speaker 6: So.

2718
02:20:46,600 --> 02:20:49,520
Speaker 1: The Neptune anti ship missile is one of the prides

2719
02:20:49,520 --> 02:20:53,200
Speaker 1: of Ukraine's Nascon arms industry. Neptune missiles are credited with

2720
02:20:53,280 --> 02:20:56,600
Speaker 1: destroying the Moskva in April of twenty twenty two. Ukraine

2721
02:20:56,640 --> 02:20:59,720
Speaker 1: also has access to several Western anti ship missiles, including

2722
02:20:59,760 --> 02:21:02,320
Speaker 1: these storm Shadow and Scalp missiles. I believe the storm

2723
02:21:02,360 --> 02:21:07,280
Speaker 1: Shadow comes from your your folks, right, James, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

2724
02:21:07,360 --> 02:21:09,520
Speaker 1: and these seem to be pretty effective missiles. These obviously

2725
02:21:09,600 --> 02:21:13,000
Speaker 1: much more advanced, and these are modern naval weapons, right,

2726
02:21:13,040 --> 02:21:15,400
Speaker 1: These are much more advanced than, for example, the weapons

2727
02:21:15,400 --> 02:21:17,000
Speaker 1: to who these have. These are the kind of things

2728
02:21:17,040 --> 02:21:21,080
Speaker 1: that can counter to some extent modern anti missile technology.

2729
02:21:21,600 --> 02:21:23,600
Speaker 1: For an example of kind of how that tends to work,

2730
02:21:23,600 --> 02:21:25,960
Speaker 1: they used a barrage of I believe it was mostly

2731
02:21:26,000 --> 02:21:30,040
Speaker 1: storm shadows to rain death on the crime import of Sebastopol. Recently,

2732
02:21:30,760 --> 02:21:33,240
Speaker 1: seven out of eighteen of the missiles fired made it

2733
02:21:33,280 --> 02:21:36,600
Speaker 1: through Russian air defenses, and these damaged or destroyed four

2734
02:21:36,720 --> 02:21:39,160
Speaker 1: landing ships in a single strike. And these are sizeable

2735
02:21:39,240 --> 02:21:42,320
Speaker 1: naval vessels. This is the most recent attack, although as

2736
02:21:42,360 --> 02:21:44,600
Speaker 1: after I wrote this, there was another attack on the

2737
02:21:44,680 --> 02:21:47,520
Speaker 1: Kirch Bridge. I'm not really sure how that took place

2738
02:21:47,720 --> 02:21:49,920
Speaker 1: yet that seems to have shut it down again. But

2739
02:21:50,000 --> 02:21:51,680
Speaker 1: that gives you an idea of like what you actually

2740
02:21:51,760 --> 02:21:53,240
Speaker 1: have to do. How much of these missiles you have

2741
02:21:53,280 --> 02:21:54,800
Speaker 1: to put in the air to get some through? And

2742
02:21:54,800 --> 02:21:57,400
Speaker 1: that's not too bad, right, eighteen missiles seven get through

2743
02:21:57,440 --> 02:22:01,240
Speaker 1: four ships down. That's a really good rate of return.

2744
02:22:01,480 --> 02:22:04,000
Speaker 2: Especially when you consider that, like you know, we were

2745
02:22:04,000 --> 02:22:06,080
Speaker 2: talking in our first episode about how the US is

2746
02:22:06,080 --> 02:22:10,960
Speaker 2: spending significant resources on maintaining its defending its carriers, right,

2747
02:22:11,680 --> 02:22:14,480
Speaker 2: Russia does not have the same ability to keep good

2748
02:22:14,640 --> 02:22:19,400
Speaker 2: lord saying munitions no, and so like that's a finite resource, right,

2749
02:22:19,400 --> 02:22:22,160
Speaker 2: they're their means of defining that. Defending their ships and

2750
02:22:22,200 --> 02:22:25,879
Speaker 2: defending really anything against missiles are a finite resource. So

2751
02:22:26,480 --> 02:22:30,320
Speaker 2: any time you can even if the ship doesn't get sunk,

2752
02:22:30,400 --> 02:22:32,520
Speaker 2: if the ship has to deploy one of these missiles,

2753
02:22:32,520 --> 02:22:35,120
Speaker 2: which it doesn't, which the whole country doesn't have very

2754
02:22:35,160 --> 02:22:36,320
Speaker 2: many of, that they're still a win.

2755
02:22:36,800 --> 02:22:39,920
Speaker 1: Now, this is we are talking about irregular naval warfare.

2756
02:22:39,920 --> 02:22:42,119
Speaker 1: And then this is not This is not what most

2757
02:22:42,120 --> 02:22:45,680
Speaker 1: people would have considered a traditional naval conflict prior to

2758
02:22:45,959 --> 02:22:49,440
Speaker 1: the expansion of hostilities in Ukraine. However, we are talking

2759
02:22:49,440 --> 02:22:50,959
Speaker 1: this is very different than the case of the Huthies.

2760
02:22:51,080 --> 02:22:53,879
Speaker 1: Ukraine is a state. It doesn't have a massive arms industry,

2761
02:22:53,879 --> 02:22:55,760
Speaker 1: but it has one, and it has the support of

2762
02:22:55,840 --> 02:22:58,520
Speaker 1: nations with sizable arms industries. Right, so we are not

2763
02:22:58,640 --> 02:23:01,480
Speaker 1: talking about this. We are going to talk about the

2764
02:23:01,520 --> 02:23:04,320
Speaker 1: aspects of Ukrainian a regular naval warfare. That are some

2765
02:23:04,440 --> 02:23:07,520
Speaker 1: guys that are hobbyists building shit. Yeah, this is not

2766
02:23:07,600 --> 02:23:10,760
Speaker 1: that part yet, but I think this information is kind

2767
02:23:10,760 --> 02:23:13,000
Speaker 1: of significant and that it shows the tactical use of

2768
02:23:13,000 --> 02:23:16,240
Speaker 1: anti ship cruise missiles and their ability to significantly shape

2769
02:23:16,240 --> 02:23:19,560
Speaker 1: an operational environment even when the country using them has

2770
02:23:19,640 --> 02:23:22,840
Speaker 1: minimal conventional naval assets of their own. It is largely

2771
02:23:22,879 --> 02:23:24,760
Speaker 1: through the use of these missiles that Ukraine has been

2772
02:23:24,800 --> 02:23:27,959
Speaker 1: able to reopen their black Sea ports. That matters to

2773
02:23:28,000 --> 02:23:30,880
Speaker 1: people seeking to understand both this conflict and the future

2774
02:23:30,920 --> 02:23:33,240
Speaker 1: of unconventional naval warfare. I mean, I guess you could

2775
02:23:33,280 --> 02:23:35,760
Speaker 1: say this is the future of conventional naval warfare, but

2776
02:23:35,800 --> 02:23:38,720
Speaker 1: I think we're still leaning on the unconventional side at

2777
02:23:38,720 --> 02:23:40,959
Speaker 1: the moment, at least in terms of how doctrine is

2778
02:23:41,160 --> 02:23:43,279
Speaker 1: changing as a result of this. So maybe I should

2779
02:23:43,520 --> 02:23:46,880
Speaker 1: update how we're defining this. But for our purposes as

2780
02:23:46,879 --> 02:23:49,959
Speaker 1: people unlikely to have access to cruise missiles but significantly

2781
02:23:50,080 --> 02:23:52,920
Speaker 1: likely to find ourselves waging an unconventional war than having

2782
02:23:52,959 --> 02:23:55,560
Speaker 1: cruise missiles, it's more relevant to look at the new

2783
02:23:55,560 --> 02:23:58,240
Speaker 1: weapons systems Ukraine has developed that have helped them lock

2784
02:23:58,280 --> 02:24:01,800
Speaker 1: down the Black Sea fleet using civilian hobbyists, And this

2785
02:24:01,840 --> 02:24:06,440
Speaker 1: is where we get to drones. Ukraine's conventional aerial drones

2786
02:24:06,480 --> 02:24:09,199
Speaker 1: are a mix of actual military hardware. I'm talking about

2787
02:24:09,200 --> 02:24:13,000
Speaker 1: stuff like the Bairaktar, the Turkish drone, which is like

2788
02:24:13,200 --> 02:24:15,200
Speaker 1: kind of like the Predator A right, it's like an

2789
02:24:15,280 --> 02:24:18,720
Speaker 1: actual military product. But the majority in terms of numbers

2790
02:24:18,760 --> 02:24:21,720
Speaker 1: of drones that Ukraine is fielding are civilian drones, or

2791
02:24:21,720 --> 02:24:25,080
Speaker 1: at least drones that started out a civilian technology. A

2792
02:24:25,120 --> 02:24:27,400
Speaker 1: lot of these are now built to be military, but

2793
02:24:27,400 --> 02:24:30,120
Speaker 1: they're still based on these designs that started with people

2794
02:24:30,160 --> 02:24:34,240
Speaker 1: hacking and cobbling together civilian drones and outside of naval stuff.

2795
02:24:34,360 --> 02:24:36,400
Speaker 1: Prior to the war, there had been a lot of

2796
02:24:36,480 --> 02:24:39,320
Speaker 1: veterans and hobbyists who were veterans trying to convince the

2797
02:24:39,400 --> 02:24:42,600
Speaker 1: Ukrainian military that it needed to adopt drone warfare on

2798
02:24:42,640 --> 02:24:44,680
Speaker 1: a large scale, the kind of drone warfare that you

2799
02:24:44,720 --> 02:24:48,480
Speaker 1: can do with these less expensive drones, and they received

2800
02:24:48,480 --> 02:24:50,640
Speaker 1: a lot of pushback until the war started and these

2801
02:24:50,680 --> 02:24:53,280
Speaker 1: guys just took to the field and started fucking murking

2802
02:24:53,360 --> 02:24:57,360
Speaker 1: Russian armed units and infantry and killing generals and shit.

2803
02:24:57,840 --> 02:25:00,520
Speaker 1: And now Ukraine has integrated in a way that everyone

2804
02:25:00,600 --> 02:25:03,680
Speaker 1: is going to follow, like Ukrainian like battalions have like

2805
02:25:03,760 --> 02:25:07,680
Speaker 1: companies now that are drone assault companies, and like line battalions, and.

2806
02:25:07,680 --> 02:25:11,879
Speaker 2: Within infantry you have people used artillery eating transit forward observers.

2807
02:25:12,160 --> 02:25:13,320
Speaker 6: Yes, all over.

2808
02:25:13,400 --> 02:25:15,400
Speaker 1: They have set a goal for this year producing at

2809
02:25:15,440 --> 02:25:18,080
Speaker 1: least a million and ideally more like two million drones

2810
02:25:18,480 --> 02:25:19,960
Speaker 1: and at least from what I read, that looks like

2811
02:25:20,280 --> 02:25:22,480
Speaker 1: very plausible. And most of these are quite small, right,

2812
02:25:22,520 --> 02:25:24,480
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean obviously ineffective.

2813
02:25:24,680 --> 02:25:26,080
Speaker 2: I know they buy a lot of their drones in

2814
02:25:26,120 --> 02:25:29,520
Speaker 2: the UK because the UK has consistently kicked itself in

2815
02:25:29,560 --> 02:25:32,360
Speaker 2: the nuts when it comes to like Brexit, and so

2816
02:25:32,720 --> 02:25:35,160
Speaker 2: the pound is significantly weaker, and so they're able to

2817
02:25:35,160 --> 02:25:37,000
Speaker 2: get the drones at a cheaper price and then drive

2818
02:25:37,040 --> 02:25:39,600
Speaker 2: them all the way across. Yeah, you know people who've

2819
02:25:39,640 --> 02:25:41,640
Speaker 2: done that. I was going to go join them, but

2820
02:25:41,720 --> 02:25:42,480
Speaker 2: never worked it out.

2821
02:25:42,720 --> 02:25:46,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know there are a number of different

2822
02:25:46,600 --> 02:25:50,360
Speaker 1: like these. These drones earlier in the war had an

2823
02:25:50,440 --> 02:25:53,720
Speaker 1: easier time being effective and causing casualties on the Russians

2824
02:25:53,720 --> 02:25:56,560
Speaker 1: then later This is something that you know, kind of

2825
02:25:56,560 --> 02:25:59,920
Speaker 1: the hooplaw and support, which I think is necessary that Ukraine.

2826
02:26:00,040 --> 02:26:03,000
Speaker 1: It's lead some people to discount the degree to which

2827
02:26:03,080 --> 02:26:06,280
Speaker 1: Russian forces have adapted and gotten smarter. And one of

2828
02:26:06,320 --> 02:26:08,480
Speaker 1: the ways in which they've adapted and gotten smarter is

2829
02:26:08,520 --> 02:26:11,160
Speaker 1: in blocking drones and using drones of their own. You know,

2830
02:26:11,200 --> 02:26:12,920
Speaker 1: one of the stories the last couple of weeks is

2831
02:26:12,920 --> 02:26:17,040
Speaker 1: that Russia has succeeded in carrying out strikes on advanced

2832
02:26:17,040 --> 02:26:21,600
Speaker 1: weapons systems like samsites deep in Ukrainian territory. They've extended

2833
02:26:21,600 --> 02:26:24,160
Speaker 1: their kill chain beyond what they used to be capable of,

2834
02:26:24,200 --> 02:26:27,640
Speaker 1: and that's because they've adapted. They're also adapted with less

2835
02:26:27,720 --> 02:26:31,440
Speaker 1: efficacy at blocking drones. In attacks on naval vessels, some

2836
02:26:31,520 --> 02:26:33,000
Speaker 1: of this has been kind of funny. I want to

2837
02:26:33,000 --> 02:26:36,199
Speaker 1: read a quote from a Business Insider article here. Russia

2838
02:26:36,240 --> 02:26:38,840
Speaker 1: is painting silhouettes on naval vessels on land to try

2839
02:26:38,840 --> 02:26:42,080
Speaker 1: and trick Ukraine, which keeps destroying its warships. In an

2840
02:26:42,120 --> 02:26:44,880
Speaker 1: intelligence update on Wednesday, the UK Ministry of Defense said

2841
02:26:44,879 --> 02:26:47,240
Speaker 1: that silhouettes of vessels have also been painted on the

2842
02:26:47,240 --> 02:26:51,160
Speaker 1: side of ks, probably to confuse the uncrude aerial vehicle operators.

2843
02:26:51,520 --> 02:26:54,279
Speaker 1: They showed there's some images of this. They don't seem

2844
02:26:54,360 --> 02:26:57,760
Speaker 1: convincing to me. I don't know if I think this

2845
02:26:57,800 --> 02:26:58,720
Speaker 1: is working.

2846
02:26:59,000 --> 02:27:01,879
Speaker 2: This is great these I love this, like they have

2847
02:27:01,920 --> 02:27:05,800
Speaker 2: a cardboard navy next. Yeah, it's very bugs bunny. Yes,

2848
02:27:05,840 --> 02:27:08,680
Speaker 2: they're not working as well as bugs would. They've a

2849
02:27:08,680 --> 02:27:11,360
Speaker 2: hole in the side of the cliff face and crushing

2850
02:27:11,440 --> 02:27:15,480
Speaker 2: into it, keeps throwing. It's very funny.

2851
02:27:15,480 --> 02:27:18,320
Speaker 1: I mean obviously they just Ukraine just sank like or

2852
02:27:18,400 --> 02:27:20,680
Speaker 1: damn it badly damaged four boats. So I don't think

2853
02:27:20,720 --> 02:27:23,200
Speaker 1: this is I haven't seen evidence that this is working well.

2854
02:27:23,560 --> 02:27:26,440
Speaker 1: Their actual like jamming efforts have been much more successful.

2855
02:27:26,520 --> 02:27:29,680
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, they always will be on civilian One of

2856
02:27:29,720 --> 02:27:32,440
Speaker 2: the thing that's really interesting compared to Mianma is that

2857
02:27:32,879 --> 02:27:36,280
Speaker 2: Ukraine tends to rely on modified off the shelf civilian drones. Right,

2858
02:27:36,360 --> 02:27:40,879
Speaker 2: your dji is that kind of thing in Meanma because

2859
02:27:40,959 --> 02:27:43,880
Speaker 2: of where a lot of the PDFs are. Because but

2860
02:27:43,959 --> 02:27:46,520
Speaker 2: they increasingly do control the borders, but they haven't always.

2861
02:27:47,080 --> 02:27:50,160
Speaker 2: They have been making their own drones. The group called

2862
02:27:50,200 --> 02:27:52,560
Speaker 2: Federal Wings you can find them on telegram, who make

2863
02:27:52,640 --> 02:27:55,720
Speaker 2: their own drones, and I think those seem to be

2864
02:27:56,400 --> 02:28:01,320
Speaker 2: less the jammers that the essays that the Tamado has

2865
02:28:01,680 --> 02:28:05,280
Speaker 2: uh Chinese made that Jamma rifles you see them all

2866
02:28:05,280 --> 02:28:07,640
Speaker 2: the time in captured weapon cashes, but they don't seem

2867
02:28:07,680 --> 02:28:11,200
Speaker 2: to be having as much impact on these homemade drones,

2868
02:28:11,200 --> 02:28:12,119
Speaker 2: which is really interesting.

2869
02:28:12,959 --> 02:28:15,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it's you know, I've mentioned a couple

2870
02:28:16,000 --> 02:28:18,520
Speaker 1: of times we're doing this in part because the odds

2871
02:28:18,560 --> 02:28:21,640
Speaker 1: that people listening might be involved in an a regular

2872
02:28:21,680 --> 02:28:22,959
Speaker 1: conflict are not zero.

2873
02:28:23,560 --> 02:28:23,720
Speaker 6: You Know.

2874
02:28:23,760 --> 02:28:26,560
Speaker 1: What I think about when I say that is not

2875
02:28:26,640 --> 02:28:29,480
Speaker 1: that there's high odds for any individual person fighting themselves

2876
02:28:29,520 --> 02:28:30,920
Speaker 1: in that situation.

2877
02:28:30,840 --> 02:28:31,280
Speaker 6: But there is.

2878
02:28:31,440 --> 02:28:33,320
Speaker 1: Given the number of people who listened to this podcast,

2879
02:28:33,440 --> 02:28:36,439
Speaker 1: probably someone who is not currently involved in a conflict

2880
02:28:36,440 --> 02:28:39,080
Speaker 1: that will find themselves that way in the future. And

2881
02:28:39,120 --> 02:28:40,600
Speaker 1: I base that in part on the fact that all

2882
02:28:40,600 --> 02:28:42,840
Speaker 1: of our friends in Myanmar who are currently fighting a

2883
02:28:42,879 --> 02:28:45,920
Speaker 1: war were a couple of years ago delivery drivers and

2884
02:28:46,120 --> 02:28:48,760
Speaker 1: you know, playing pubg online and not really thinking they

2885
02:28:48,800 --> 02:28:50,119
Speaker 1: would wind up as insurgents.

2886
02:28:50,440 --> 02:28:52,200
Speaker 2: Now I've spoken to a number of people who are

2887
02:28:52,200 --> 02:28:55,720
Speaker 2: currently fighting not in Mianma, who have listened to our

2888
02:28:55,760 --> 02:28:59,560
Speaker 2: Meanma podcast and realized the capacity of three D printing, yeah,

2889
02:28:59,640 --> 02:29:02,360
Speaker 2: to be very useful and and so like, even in

2890
02:29:02,360 --> 02:29:04,560
Speaker 2: that sense, it's already happening. But yeah, don't no one

2891
02:29:04,600 --> 02:29:07,800
Speaker 2: in the IMA, Like many of them said that their

2892
02:29:07,959 --> 02:29:12,359
Speaker 2: entire combat experience is playing pubg Yeah, now they're lurking ships.

2893
02:29:12,480 --> 02:29:12,720
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2894
02:29:12,760 --> 02:29:15,280
Speaker 1: So anyway, it bears thinking about this stuff. And this

2895
02:29:15,320 --> 02:29:18,600
Speaker 1: brings me back to Ukraine's irregular drone warfare units, which

2896
02:29:18,600 --> 02:29:20,879
Speaker 1: again a lot of these guys started out as civilian

2897
02:29:21,040 --> 02:29:24,320
Speaker 1: enthusiasts who expanded responded to the outbreak or at least

2898
02:29:24,320 --> 02:29:28,400
Speaker 1: expansion of hostilities by expanding their hobby into a real

2899
02:29:28,440 --> 02:29:31,279
Speaker 1: world military effort that had a real world effect. Civilian

2900
02:29:31,360 --> 02:29:34,360
Speaker 1: drones were crucial in the Battle of Kiev, allowing Ukraine

2901
02:29:34,400 --> 02:29:37,000
Speaker 1: to do severe damage to that massive Russian armored column

2902
02:29:37,000 --> 02:29:39,400
Speaker 1: heading towards the city and providing intel that led to

2903
02:29:39,400 --> 02:29:42,600
Speaker 1: the assassination of multiple general level officers. So it is

2904
02:29:42,640 --> 02:29:45,680
Speaker 1: perhaps not surprising that Ukraine looked to the same group

2905
02:29:45,680 --> 02:29:48,120
Speaker 1: of volunteer hobbyists when it came time to expand their

2906
02:29:48,200 --> 02:29:51,119
Speaker 1: naval arsenal. And there's a really good article I found

2907
02:29:51,160 --> 02:29:55,640
Speaker 1: in CNN by Sebastian Shukla, Alex Marcott and Daria Tarasova.

2908
02:29:55,680 --> 02:29:57,680
Speaker 1: And I actually want to give you the title of

2909
02:29:57,680 --> 02:29:59,320
Speaker 1: this article. Yeah, I'll try to thriller into the show.

2910
02:29:59,360 --> 02:30:02,959
Speaker 1: Notes is exclusive rare access to Ukraine's sea drones part

2911
02:30:02,959 --> 02:30:05,560
Speaker 1: of Ukraine's fight back in the Black Sea. Haven't really

2912
02:30:05,560 --> 02:30:07,400
Speaker 1: seen the word fight back use that way, but there

2913
02:30:07,440 --> 02:30:08,879
Speaker 1: you go. So I'm going to read a quote from

2914
02:30:08,879 --> 02:30:13,360
Speaker 1: that article. A government linked Ukrainian fundraising organization called United

2915
02:30:13,400 --> 02:30:15,960
Speaker 1: twenty four has sourced money from companies and individuals all

2916
02:30:16,000 --> 02:30:18,120
Speaker 1: around the world, pooling funds to disperse it to a

2917
02:30:18,160 --> 02:30:21,200
Speaker 1: variety of developers and initiatives from defense to soccer matches.

2918
02:30:21,560 --> 02:30:24,360
Speaker 1: The entire outfit is very security conscious, insisting on strict

2919
02:30:24,400 --> 02:30:27,480
Speaker 1: guidelines on filming and revealing identities. Those who seen and

2920
02:30:27,480 --> 02:30:29,280
Speaker 1: met with declined to give their full names or even

2921
02:30:29,320 --> 02:30:32,600
Speaker 1: their ranks within Ukraine's armed forces. On a creaky wooden jetty,

2922
02:30:32,600 --> 02:30:34,960
Speaker 1: a camouflaged sea drone pilot says he wants to go

2923
02:30:35,040 --> 02:30:37,440
Speaker 1: by shark. In front of him is a long, black

2924
02:30:37,480 --> 02:30:41,280
Speaker 1: hard show briefcase. He unveils a bespoke multi screened mission control,

2925
02:30:41,560 --> 02:30:44,880
Speaker 1: essentially an elaborate gaming center combined complete with levers, joysticks,

2926
02:30:44,879 --> 02:30:47,240
Speaker 1: a monitor, and buttons that have covers over switches that

2927
02:30:47,280 --> 02:30:51,359
Speaker 1: shouldn't accidentally be knocked with labels like blast. The developer

2928
02:30:51,360 --> 02:30:53,320
Speaker 1: of the drone who asked to remain anonymous, said their

2929
02:30:53,320 --> 02:30:55,600
Speaker 1: work on sea drones only began once the war started.

2930
02:30:55,800 --> 02:30:57,840
Speaker 1: It was very important because we did not have many

2931
02:30:57,879 --> 02:31:00,600
Speaker 1: forces to resist the maritime state Russia, and we needed

2932
02:31:00,600 --> 02:31:02,720
Speaker 1: to develop something of our own because we didn't have

2933
02:31:02,800 --> 02:31:07,760
Speaker 1: the existing capabilities. So again, these are hobbyist design I mean,

2934
02:31:07,800 --> 02:31:10,000
Speaker 1: this guy's not really a hobbyist any more, but that's

2935
02:31:10,040 --> 02:31:12,600
Speaker 1: how he started. He's only not a hobbyist because the

2936
02:31:12,600 --> 02:31:15,240
Speaker 1: military recognized the value of what he was doing. And

2937
02:31:15,320 --> 02:31:18,200
Speaker 1: the current iterations of this sea drone weigh a little

2938
02:31:18,200 --> 02:31:21,640
Speaker 1: over two thousand pounds with an explosive six hundred and

2939
02:31:21,640 --> 02:31:24,760
Speaker 1: sixty one pound payload, a five hundred mile range and

2940
02:31:24,800 --> 02:31:27,000
Speaker 1: a max speed of fifty miles per hour. That is

2941
02:31:27,560 --> 02:31:31,480
Speaker 1: a significant weapons system. Yeah, multiple sea drones have been

2942
02:31:31,520 --> 02:31:33,480
Speaker 1: used to strike Russian assets in the Black Sea, and

2943
02:31:33,560 --> 02:31:37,000
Speaker 1: drones were involved in a successful attack that severely damaged

2944
02:31:37,000 --> 02:31:41,160
Speaker 1: the Kirch Bridge last July, rendering it impassable since until September.

2945
02:31:41,520 --> 02:31:43,600
Speaker 1: So these have had a real battlefield effect and they

2946
02:31:43,640 --> 02:31:46,480
Speaker 1: probably will continue to do so. The developer of these

2947
02:31:46,560 --> 02:31:49,680
Speaker 1: drones told CNN these drones are a completely Ukrainian production.

2948
02:31:49,760 --> 02:31:52,039
Speaker 1: They are designed drawn and tested here. It's our own

2949
02:31:52,040 --> 02:31:55,040
Speaker 1: production of holes, electronics and software. More than fifty percent

2950
02:31:55,080 --> 02:31:57,920
Speaker 1: of the production of equipment is here in Ukraine. And

2951
02:31:57,920 --> 02:32:01,160
Speaker 1: that's really significant because you know, I think we're all

2952
02:32:01,200 --> 02:32:04,600
Speaker 1: aware of the difficulty Ukraine has had getting weaponry lately

2953
02:32:04,760 --> 02:32:07,720
Speaker 1: from the West as a result of fucking around in Congress,

2954
02:32:08,120 --> 02:32:10,640
Speaker 1: and so it is a necessity for them to be

2955
02:32:10,680 --> 02:32:13,880
Speaker 1: able to develop weapon systems like this that can interdict

2956
02:32:13,879 --> 02:32:16,680
Speaker 1: and counteract more advanced and expensive weapon systems and can

2957
02:32:16,840 --> 02:32:19,720
Speaker 1: be produced indigenously. You know, I don't think we have

2958
02:32:19,800 --> 02:32:24,120
Speaker 1: seen a mass suicide boat attack. I'm interested in what

2959
02:32:24,240 --> 02:32:27,760
Speaker 1: happens when we do, like with more significant numbers than

2960
02:32:27,760 --> 02:32:31,320
Speaker 1: we've seen deployed. I kind of wonder the degree to

2961
02:32:31,320 --> 02:32:33,280
Speaker 1: which the Russians have gotten good at spotting this stuff.

2962
02:32:33,320 --> 02:32:35,160
Speaker 1: I've come across at least a couple of stories of

2963
02:32:35,200 --> 02:32:38,119
Speaker 1: these boats likely destroyed on approach. So they certainly don't

2964
02:32:38,120 --> 02:32:40,600
Speaker 1: always work even a majority of the time. But given

2965
02:32:40,640 --> 02:32:42,200
Speaker 1: the cost of these things they don't have to get

2966
02:32:42,240 --> 02:32:44,760
Speaker 1: through the majority of the time, very much worth it

2967
02:32:44,879 --> 02:32:49,080
Speaker 1: right now. In that interview with The New York Times,

2968
02:32:49,120 --> 02:32:53,160
Speaker 1: Admiral Najpapa caution that Ukraine is still outgunned in the

2969
02:32:53,200 --> 02:32:56,519
Speaker 1: Black Sea. Even though the Russians no longer have supremacy,

2970
02:32:56,760 --> 02:32:59,800
Speaker 1: they still have air superiority. They are still able to

2971
02:33:00,040 --> 02:33:03,400
Speaker 1: lunch from the sea long range missiles at Ukrainian targets,

2972
02:33:03,440 --> 02:33:07,560
Speaker 1: including civilian targets. So this is not again a situation

2973
02:33:07,640 --> 02:33:10,160
Speaker 1: that should be portrayed as them having their own way.

2974
02:33:10,760 --> 02:33:12,880
Speaker 1: Their ability to kind of interdict the sea has been

2975
02:33:13,160 --> 02:33:15,760
Speaker 1: The primary effects of it have been number one, the

2976
02:33:15,840 --> 02:33:18,120
Speaker 1: reopening of trade in the Black Sea, and earlier in

2977
02:33:18,160 --> 02:33:21,240
Speaker 1: the war, by locking down the ability of these landing

2978
02:33:21,280 --> 02:33:23,360
Speaker 1: ships to put more troops on ground and by doing

2979
02:33:23,440 --> 02:33:26,119
Speaker 1: damage to the Kurch Bridge, they were able to slow

2980
02:33:26,320 --> 02:33:30,320
Speaker 1: Russian reinforcements in Russian materiel from entering the war zone

2981
02:33:30,400 --> 02:33:33,160
Speaker 1: in order to this aided in some of the advances,

2982
02:33:33,200 --> 02:33:37,040
Speaker 1: particularly in areas like Carson. At this moment, the situation

2983
02:33:37,120 --> 02:33:40,160
Speaker 1: has changed because again the Russians aren't just kind of

2984
02:33:40,200 --> 02:33:42,800
Speaker 1: like sitting around doing the same thing over again, or

2985
02:33:42,800 --> 02:33:45,520
Speaker 1: at least not always. And we don't tend to talk

2986
02:33:45,560 --> 02:33:47,800
Speaker 1: as much about successes on the Russian side of things,

2987
02:33:47,800 --> 02:33:49,920
Speaker 1: but that is an important part of the story and

2988
02:33:50,040 --> 02:33:51,800
Speaker 1: one of the things the Russians have done is kind

2989
02:33:51,800 --> 02:33:54,520
Speaker 1: of acknowledged that the Black Sea Fleet may not be

2990
02:33:54,760 --> 02:33:58,800
Speaker 1: a fleet in being forever and certainly cannot be relied

2991
02:33:58,879 --> 02:34:01,760
Speaker 1: upon to handle everything they initially thought it would handle.

2992
02:34:02,120 --> 02:34:04,760
Speaker 1: And so Russian engineers spent a significant period of time

2993
02:34:04,800 --> 02:34:08,360
Speaker 1: building a sizeable new railroad that connects Rostov and southern

2994
02:34:08,440 --> 02:34:12,280
Speaker 1: Russia to Mariopol and occupied southern Ukraine. This has allowed

2995
02:34:12,280 --> 02:34:15,440
Speaker 1: them to get high volume shipments into the area and

2996
02:34:15,520 --> 02:34:20,560
Speaker 1: supply troops to the area along Ukraine's southern front without

2997
02:34:20,640 --> 02:34:23,680
Speaker 1: relying on that bridge or relying on naval landings.

2998
02:34:23,760 --> 02:34:23,960
Speaker 6: Right.

2999
02:34:24,760 --> 02:34:26,840
Speaker 1: So, the fact that Ukraine has been able to take

3000
02:34:26,840 --> 02:34:29,640
Speaker 1: out for landing ships recently is good. That's a wind

3001
02:34:29,720 --> 02:34:32,840
Speaker 1: for Ukraine. It reduces Russian capability, but it is not

3002
02:34:32,959 --> 02:34:34,720
Speaker 1: half the same effect that it would have had, for example,

3003
02:34:34,760 --> 02:34:38,920
Speaker 1: two years earlier. Right, Yeah, because Russia has also evolved,

3004
02:34:38,959 --> 02:34:41,760
Speaker 1: and among other things, railroads are a lot easier or

3005
02:34:41,800 --> 02:34:44,360
Speaker 1: a lot harder to destroy to take out.

3006
02:34:44,440 --> 02:34:44,600
Speaker 6: Right.

3007
02:34:44,600 --> 02:34:46,879
Speaker 1: It's easy to damage a railroad, but they're easy to fix.

3008
02:34:46,920 --> 02:34:49,360
Speaker 1: It doesn't take a lot to get some guys over

3009
02:34:49,440 --> 02:34:52,119
Speaker 1: to fix a damage sunk of railroad, fixing a bridge

3010
02:34:52,120 --> 02:34:54,240
Speaker 1: that's been blown up, or a sunk boat is a

3011
02:34:54,320 --> 02:34:54,920
Speaker 1: lot harder.

3012
02:34:55,280 --> 02:34:58,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, and there are people within Russia

3013
02:34:58,200 --> 02:35:01,960
Speaker 2: even who are sabotaging railways say it's like it's very

3014
02:35:02,040 --> 02:35:04,720
Speaker 2: high stakes for them, and it's relatively low cost for

3015
02:35:05,160 --> 02:35:08,640
Speaker 2: the Russian state to fix that stuff, so like it's

3016
02:35:08,640 --> 02:35:09,520
Speaker 2: not as effective.

3017
02:35:10,000 --> 02:35:11,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think this gives you an idea of

3018
02:35:11,959 --> 02:35:14,280
Speaker 1: kind of like what we're looking at when we look

3019
02:35:14,320 --> 02:35:17,959
Speaker 1: at this kind of ongoing A regular conflict is the

3020
02:35:18,040 --> 02:35:21,040
Speaker 1: side that does not have access to a functional navy,

3021
02:35:21,280 --> 02:35:24,360
Speaker 1: not able to interdict or destroy fleets, but able to

3022
02:35:24,400 --> 02:35:26,720
Speaker 1: stop them from dominating the coast. And when you can

3023
02:35:26,720 --> 02:35:29,440
Speaker 1: stop them from dominating the coast, you have effectively denied

3024
02:35:29,520 --> 02:35:33,279
Speaker 1: them terrain that they can act in without being countered,

3025
02:35:33,720 --> 02:35:36,440
Speaker 1: and you have also denied them from stopping you from

3026
02:35:36,520 --> 02:35:38,640
Speaker 1: acting in that same terrain, even if you don't have

3027
02:35:38,720 --> 02:35:42,480
Speaker 1: total safety in that area. That opens up the operational

3028
02:35:42,520 --> 02:35:47,240
Speaker 1: possibilities substantially. And this is something that I kind of

3029
02:35:47,280 --> 02:35:49,320
Speaker 1: don't think is going to get put back in the bag.

3030
02:35:49,400 --> 02:35:52,520
Speaker 1: Even if some of these Star Wars ass weapons systems

3031
02:35:52,560 --> 02:35:54,920
Speaker 1: do come out in the near future, you know, maybe

3032
02:35:54,920 --> 02:35:58,360
Speaker 1: that'll have an impact in the immediate term on people

3033
02:35:58,400 --> 02:36:00,400
Speaker 1: like the houthies. But I don't think think that it

3034
02:36:00,440 --> 02:36:06,679
Speaker 1: really will on you know, for example, what Ukraine's doing right, Yes, Russia.

3035
02:36:06,360 --> 02:36:09,560
Speaker 2: Can't keep up with getting decent small arms, body armor,

3036
02:36:09,680 --> 02:36:12,280
Speaker 2: grenades and ship legs. There's no way it's going to

3037
02:36:12,280 --> 02:36:15,840
Speaker 2: implement some kind of massive star Wars system over its navy.

3038
02:36:15,879 --> 02:36:17,520
Speaker 2: Not right now, not in the middle of a conflict.

3039
02:36:17,560 --> 02:36:19,200
Speaker 2: That's it's struggling to supply.

3040
02:36:20,080 --> 02:36:22,320
Speaker 1: Yep, you know what, here's an ad break.

3041
02:36:33,160 --> 02:36:36,480
Speaker 2: All right, we're back and we are traveling around the world.

3042
02:36:36,600 --> 02:36:39,760
Speaker 2: Spend your little globe in your head and look for Meanma,

3043
02:36:40,000 --> 02:36:44,080
Speaker 2: which is of course in Asia. Now I'm talking about

3044
02:36:44,080 --> 02:36:48,800
Speaker 2: two different I guess anti ship sabotage or attack or

3045
02:36:49,120 --> 02:36:51,199
Speaker 2: two different ways ships have been sunk in the EMMA.

3046
02:36:51,480 --> 02:36:54,320
Speaker 2: I'll start with the first one, which is undoubtedly the flashiest,

3047
02:36:55,040 --> 02:36:59,520
Speaker 2: just because it's fun. So a ship in the port

3048
02:36:59,640 --> 02:37:02,199
Speaker 2: of Yeah, about about a month ago, so we're recording

3049
02:37:02,200 --> 02:37:05,320
Speaker 2: on a twenty. It's about the first of March. It

3050
02:37:05,360 --> 02:37:07,600
Speaker 2: was in the river, in the river in yangon right,

3051
02:37:07,640 --> 02:37:10,920
Speaker 2: and it was carrying allegedly carrying jet fuel. Now, if

3052
02:37:10,959 --> 02:37:15,600
Speaker 2: you follow Burmese activists, people in the Burmese Freedom Movement,

3053
02:37:15,920 --> 02:37:18,120
Speaker 2: they will. One of their demands for a long time

3054
02:37:18,200 --> 02:37:21,400
Speaker 2: has been to stop supplying the Hunter with jet fuel,

3055
02:37:21,440 --> 02:37:27,160
Speaker 2: which would in turn stop it being able to bomb villages, schools, civilians,

3056
02:37:27,480 --> 02:37:31,080
Speaker 2: PDF formations, just about anyone in the country. It's bombed

3057
02:37:31,080 --> 02:37:33,760
Speaker 2: at some point in the last couple of years. And

3058
02:37:34,080 --> 02:37:36,120
Speaker 2: they haven't been exactly right. They haven't been able to

3059
02:37:36,120 --> 02:37:39,199
Speaker 2: stop the supply of jet fuel coming to the Hunter.

3060
02:37:39,640 --> 02:37:41,480
Speaker 2: So they've taken it into their own hands. And what

3061
02:37:41,520 --> 02:37:44,320
Speaker 2: they did on the first of March was that they

3062
02:37:44,920 --> 02:37:49,040
Speaker 2: snuck onto a boat. So two this is the story

3063
02:37:49,080 --> 02:37:52,959
Speaker 2: from the Burmese National Unity Government's Ministry of Defense. Anyway,

3064
02:37:53,800 --> 02:37:58,560
Speaker 2: combat divers snuck onto this boat planted a kilogram of

3065
02:37:58,600 --> 02:38:01,680
Speaker 2: TNT or a charge equivalent to kilogram of TNT. Robert

3066
02:38:01,680 --> 02:38:04,400
Speaker 2: and I've both spoken to people who make explosives in memrs.

3067
02:38:04,480 --> 02:38:04,640
Speaker 10: We do.

3068
02:38:04,680 --> 02:38:07,039
Speaker 2: We definitely know the PDF has access to a range

3069
02:38:07,040 --> 02:38:10,000
Speaker 2: of explosives. They said it on a five hour fuse

3070
02:38:10,400 --> 02:38:12,160
Speaker 2: and it blew up in the middle of the night,

3071
02:38:12,560 --> 02:38:15,360
Speaker 2: and there's definitely footage of the ship on fire having

3072
02:38:15,440 --> 02:38:19,039
Speaker 2: blown up. Now, this is pretty remarkable for never real

3073
02:38:19,200 --> 02:38:22,800
Speaker 2: like this is like why the United States has units

3074
02:38:22,840 --> 02:38:25,960
Speaker 2: like the Navy seals right, like the higher speed guys,

3075
02:38:26,840 --> 02:38:31,920
Speaker 2: because it is not easy to scuba dive across a harbor,

3076
02:38:32,360 --> 02:38:36,000
Speaker 2: climb onto a ship, send an explosive charge without being detected,

3077
02:38:36,280 --> 02:38:38,240
Speaker 2: and then leave that ship and have the charge go

3078
02:38:38,320 --> 02:38:41,280
Speaker 2: off and sink the ship without you being compromised, without

3079
02:38:41,280 --> 02:38:45,760
Speaker 2: the charge itself being like compromised, and the ship being saved. Right,

3080
02:38:45,800 --> 02:38:49,760
Speaker 2: this is some like this is some classic like this

3081
02:38:49,879 --> 02:38:52,360
Speaker 2: is why they are a special units within the US military.

3082
02:38:52,840 --> 02:38:53,080
Speaker 6: Now.

3083
02:38:54,080 --> 02:38:56,840
Speaker 2: The PDF very obviously did not have combat dives. Two

3084
02:38:56,879 --> 02:39:00,520
Speaker 2: years ago, I was looking into hobby scuba diving in Yangon.

3085
02:39:01,120 --> 02:39:04,680
Speaker 2: The rivers in that area are extremely muddy and visibility

3086
02:39:04,760 --> 02:39:08,680
Speaker 2: is very low, So the people who you find diving

3087
02:39:08,720 --> 02:39:11,040
Speaker 2: in that area are not so much like hobby scuba

3088
02:39:11,080 --> 02:39:15,680
Speaker 2: divers or free divers. But there's salvage divers and there's

3089
02:39:15,680 --> 02:39:19,080
Speaker 2: a whole little industry of people. And these people are

3090
02:39:19,080 --> 02:39:24,080
Speaker 2: diving in equipment that I would not consider safe or reliable.

3091
02:39:24,560 --> 02:39:27,880
Speaker 2: It's clamping an air hose in between your teeth and

3092
02:39:27,959 --> 02:39:30,840
Speaker 2: diving down and trying to find there's a large deposit

3093
02:39:30,879 --> 02:39:33,280
Speaker 2: of coal in one of the rivers in Yangon because

3094
02:39:33,280 --> 02:39:35,720
Speaker 2: of a ship that's sunk. There was a coarse copper

3095
02:39:35,920 --> 02:39:39,360
Speaker 2: which everyone all around the world, including the bigcong in Santia,

3096
02:39:39,360 --> 02:39:42,879
Speaker 2: are stealing copper. There's iron, right, So these people are

3097
02:39:42,879 --> 02:39:46,280
Speaker 2: diving down and trying to collect scrap and sell that

3098
02:39:46,400 --> 02:39:48,640
Speaker 2: for whatever minimal amount they can.

3099
02:39:48,760 --> 02:39:48,840
Speaker 7: Right.

3100
02:39:48,879 --> 02:39:55,440
Speaker 2: It's an extremely dangerous and extremely low income. It's one

3101
02:39:55,480 --> 02:39:58,240
Speaker 2: of the sort of really high risk, low reward jobs

3102
02:39:58,240 --> 02:40:00,720
Speaker 2: that you get in economies where people are struggling to

3103
02:40:00,720 --> 02:40:04,720
Speaker 2: make ends meet. Right, So those are the only divers

3104
02:40:04,760 --> 02:40:07,280
Speaker 2: I can find evidence of in Yangon. I don't think

3105
02:40:07,320 --> 02:40:09,400
Speaker 2: it was them who did this, because you have to

3106
02:40:09,400 --> 02:40:11,119
Speaker 2: have a boat above you with a pump if you're

3107
02:40:11,160 --> 02:40:13,440
Speaker 2: diving with a rubber hose in your teeth, right, So

3108
02:40:14,080 --> 02:40:19,320
Speaker 2: it seems like somebody in within the They said it

3109
02:40:19,360 --> 02:40:21,520
Speaker 2: was a Yangon PDF, that's what they attribute it to,

3110
02:40:21,680 --> 02:40:25,080
Speaker 2: so that would be one of these. It would likely

3111
02:40:25,080 --> 02:40:28,000
Speaker 2: be an underground group within the PDF, right, some people

3112
02:40:28,080 --> 02:40:30,800
Speaker 2: living in the city who were able to sneak onto

3113
02:40:30,800 --> 02:40:32,640
Speaker 2: this boat, set a charge and blow it up, and

3114
02:40:32,680 --> 02:40:34,880
Speaker 2: they would also had to have intelligence at the boat

3115
02:40:35,520 --> 02:40:38,560
Speaker 2: where it was, what it was carrying, et cetera. It's

3116
02:40:38,560 --> 02:40:42,560
Speaker 2: a pretty pretty daring mission that this is the first

3117
02:40:42,560 --> 02:40:44,879
Speaker 2: one like this we've seen and we haven't seen anything since.

3118
02:40:44,959 --> 02:40:48,160
Speaker 2: But it's of course possible that this is a story

3119
02:40:48,200 --> 02:40:50,760
Speaker 2: that we're being told. In fact, they had like someone

3120
02:40:50,800 --> 02:40:53,720
Speaker 2: undercover on the ship, right or like they had some

3121
02:40:53,840 --> 02:40:56,480
Speaker 2: other means of getting this charge onto the ship, but

3122
02:40:57,360 --> 02:40:59,160
Speaker 2: one way or another they managed to blow up this

3123
02:40:59,240 --> 02:41:03,240
Speaker 2: ship carrying few, which is a significant detrimu Yeah, right,

3124
02:41:03,879 --> 02:41:05,520
Speaker 2: that's how they get most of their shit. It's not

3125
02:41:05,560 --> 02:41:08,400
Speaker 2: over land, especially with more the.

3126
02:41:08,440 --> 02:41:12,519
Speaker 1: Terrain there is just absolutely, like even with modern technology,

3127
02:41:12,560 --> 02:41:14,520
Speaker 1: difficult to get significant amounts of shit through.

3128
02:41:14,959 --> 02:41:18,640
Speaker 2: They're resupplying some of their outposts that are ten miles

3129
02:41:18,640 --> 02:41:21,440
Speaker 2: from a town with helicopters right now, like a the

3130
02:41:21,560 --> 02:41:28,280
Speaker 2: terrain is burly, and b they don't have the PDF

3131
02:41:28,320 --> 02:41:31,000
Speaker 2: has denied them access that any time they send out

3132
02:41:31,040 --> 02:41:34,520
Speaker 2: a convoy, it gets attacked, so sending out plus you

3133
02:41:34,560 --> 02:41:37,760
Speaker 2: know that their land border crossings are increasingly falling into

3134
02:41:37,760 --> 02:41:41,520
Speaker 2: the hands of the PDFs and the ROS, So getting

3135
02:41:41,520 --> 02:41:43,039
Speaker 2: stuff through the ocean is one of the ways that

3136
02:41:43,040 --> 02:41:45,680
Speaker 2: they can still get stuff. And if this keeps happening,

3137
02:41:45,720 --> 02:41:48,120
Speaker 2: then they will make that more expensive for them. And

3138
02:41:48,240 --> 02:41:51,720
Speaker 2: they're not exactly a wealthy hunter even though, I guess

3139
02:41:51,879 --> 02:41:54,920
Speaker 2: Minna Lung just made himself an air Force one recently.

3140
02:41:55,000 --> 02:41:57,040
Speaker 2: I was just looking at it. Today's good. He's got

3141
02:41:57,080 --> 02:42:01,240
Speaker 2: himself too luxury. Yeah, they called it dictators like he's

3142
02:42:01,320 --> 02:42:05,480
Speaker 2: upgraded from president class. Nice. Yeah, yeah, yes, he has

3143
02:42:06,920 --> 02:42:09,920
Speaker 2: in many ways. So yeah, that's one way that the

3144
02:42:09,920 --> 02:42:12,400
Speaker 2: PDF has been blowing up ships in the Yangon, Robert,

3145
02:42:12,480 --> 02:42:15,439
Speaker 2: do you know who else has been blowing up ships

3146
02:42:15,600 --> 02:42:16,720
Speaker 2: in the yang in Yangon?

3147
02:42:17,440 --> 02:42:22,640
Speaker 1: Well, we are sponsored entirely by the British Navy circa

3148
02:42:22,680 --> 02:42:27,280
Speaker 1: the mid eighteen hundreds, so I would guess them, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

3149
02:42:27,360 --> 02:42:31,039
Speaker 1: yeah yeah. Lots of repressed, repressed feelings and growing up

3150
02:42:31,440 --> 02:42:35,960
Speaker 1: a lot of cabin boys with deep trauma. Anyway, here's

3151
02:42:36,000 --> 02:42:36,400
Speaker 1: the ass.

3152
02:42:36,840 --> 02:42:49,880
Speaker 12: Yeah, all right, we beca We hope you enjoyed that.

3153
02:42:49,879 --> 02:42:52,320
Speaker 2: That pivot one of our best ones yet. And we're

3154
02:42:52,320 --> 02:42:56,560
Speaker 2: talking about the Arakan Army now. So the Arakan Army

3155
02:42:57,480 --> 02:43:00,000
Speaker 2: not to be confused with the Rakhan Range of Salvation Army,

3156
02:43:00,040 --> 02:43:02,920
Speaker 2: different group. Arakan is a name of what is now

3157
02:43:02,920 --> 02:43:05,680
Speaker 2: a Rakaine state before it was colonized by the Burmese.

3158
02:43:06,000 --> 02:43:08,080
Speaker 2: That was I think Arakan was a king before it

3159
02:43:08,120 --> 02:43:10,320
Speaker 2: was colonized by the Burmese, so that that's where that

3160
02:43:10,360 --> 02:43:14,680
Speaker 2: refers to. It's a geographical appellation rather than like necessarily

3161
02:43:14,720 --> 02:43:17,640
Speaker 2: an ethnic one. The Rakaine would be the ethnic group.

3162
02:43:18,120 --> 02:43:21,119
Speaker 2: So what the AA have done is sunk I think

3163
02:43:21,440 --> 02:43:25,360
Speaker 2: at least four Hunter ships now, and most of these

3164
02:43:25,360 --> 02:43:28,440
Speaker 2: ships are kind of they're like the They look like

3165
02:43:28,480 --> 02:43:32,160
Speaker 2: big Higgins boats. They're like landing craft or like car ferries,

3166
02:43:32,200 --> 02:43:35,560
Speaker 2: like flat bottom with a bow that goes down. Right.

3167
02:43:35,879 --> 02:43:37,640
Speaker 2: I rode around a lot in the Marshall Islands in

3168
02:43:38,000 --> 02:43:39,920
Speaker 2: little landing craft like that because they can get them in.

3169
02:43:39,959 --> 02:43:42,160
Speaker 2: They don't have like docks, so they can just ride

3170
02:43:42,160 --> 02:43:43,520
Speaker 2: that right up to the beach and then drop the

3171
02:43:43,560 --> 02:43:46,480
Speaker 2: front and off you go. And they use them a lot.

3172
02:43:46,720 --> 02:43:49,560
Speaker 2: The Hunter doesn't have like per se marines that they

3173
02:43:49,600 --> 02:43:53,320
Speaker 2: don't have maritime infantry, but they use them to transport

3174
02:43:53,320 --> 02:43:56,200
Speaker 2: their regular army around, right, and they use them to

3175
02:43:56,200 --> 02:43:58,920
Speaker 2: transport them up river. They also use them a lot

3176
02:43:58,959 --> 02:44:04,440
Speaker 2: in Rakaine State to shell AA positions and any townships

3177
02:44:04,440 --> 02:44:06,200
Speaker 2: that they've decided they want to wipe off the map

3178
02:44:06,320 --> 02:44:08,680
Speaker 2: and kill all the people in right. So these these

3179
02:44:08,720 --> 02:44:11,600
Speaker 2: boats have been a real like thorn in the side

3180
02:44:11,600 --> 02:44:15,119
Speaker 2: of the Aracan Army after Operation ten twenty seven, when

3181
02:44:15,400 --> 02:44:18,400
Speaker 2: they joined with two other groups to form the Three

3182
02:44:18,400 --> 02:44:21,520
Speaker 2: Brotherhood Alliance, A launch attacks on the Hunter all over VMA,

3183
02:44:22,520 --> 02:44:25,320
Speaker 2: and so what they've been doing, it appears, is using

3184
02:44:26,120 --> 02:44:30,640
Speaker 2: underwater mines to sink these ships, which is interesting, right, Like,

3185
02:44:30,800 --> 02:44:36,720
Speaker 2: I guess the mines are like a very old technology, right,

3186
02:44:36,959 --> 02:44:40,440
Speaker 2: it's probably one hundred years plus underwater mines have existed.

3187
02:44:41,000 --> 02:44:44,280
Speaker 2: It seems the way that, like, the reason they're able

3188
02:44:44,360 --> 02:44:46,960
Speaker 2: to get away with using what is the relatively dated

3189
02:44:47,000 --> 02:44:51,119
Speaker 2: technology is because the Hunter doesn't expect to encounter anything, right,

3190
02:44:51,160 --> 02:44:54,039
Speaker 2: and so has not equipped its ships as such, Like

3191
02:44:54,240 --> 02:44:56,520
Speaker 2: they do have stuff like submarines, but that's not what's

3192
02:44:56,520 --> 02:44:58,400
Speaker 2: getting sunk. What's getting sun to these big kind of

3193
02:44:58,480 --> 02:45:01,879
Speaker 2: landing craft riverboats. And it seems that they're using mines

3194
02:45:02,080 --> 02:45:04,800
Speaker 2: and then once they disabled the ship, they're then attacking

3195
02:45:04,840 --> 02:45:08,600
Speaker 2: it with small boats, small arms like indirect fire mortars

3196
02:45:08,600 --> 02:45:12,000
Speaker 2: and stuff. I saw one post that suggested they'd use

3197
02:45:12,040 --> 02:45:14,840
Speaker 2: which is pretty cool if they did. The Burmese military

3198
02:45:14,920 --> 02:45:19,880
Speaker 2: has these like tank destroyers. It's a tank, it's what

3199
02:45:19,879 --> 02:45:22,400
Speaker 2: it is. And they've captured the AA has captured a

3200
02:45:22,480 --> 02:45:24,880
Speaker 2: number of these, right, And I've seen suggestions that they're

3201
02:45:24,959 --> 02:45:27,600
Speaker 2: using some of these on like they just set up

3202
02:45:27,600 --> 02:45:29,560
Speaker 2: an ambush along the banks of the river, right and

3203
02:45:29,640 --> 02:45:31,720
Speaker 2: as the ship comes in they can they can maybe

3204
02:45:31,720 --> 02:45:33,600
Speaker 2: disable it with a mine and then attack it with those.

3205
02:45:33,920 --> 02:45:36,920
Speaker 2: But there are videos online you can find them of

3206
02:45:37,320 --> 02:45:39,880
Speaker 2: the AA sinking these ships, and then they've done some

3207
02:45:39,920 --> 02:45:43,480
Speaker 2: amazing drone photography of like they obviously they then like

3208
02:45:43,920 --> 02:45:46,879
Speaker 2: staged their units on the ships, like all saluting the

3209
02:45:46,959 --> 02:45:49,200
Speaker 2: drone and they had the Arakan Army flags and they're

3210
02:45:49,200 --> 02:45:53,600
Speaker 2: actually really cool photos of them taking these ships. But again,

3211
02:45:53,680 --> 02:45:56,360
Speaker 2: like I think this might be the first sinking of

3212
02:45:56,640 --> 02:46:02,840
Speaker 2: a Burmese naval ship since since independence from Britain. Like,

3213
02:46:03,360 --> 02:46:05,280
Speaker 2: I can't think that they were. They really haven't played

3214
02:46:05,360 --> 02:46:07,800
Speaker 2: much of a role at all in its conflicts with

3215
02:46:07,879 --> 02:46:11,800
Speaker 2: the Eros, aside as from like basically kind of just

3216
02:46:11,879 --> 02:46:15,040
Speaker 2: shelling places when they want to do that. But there's

3217
02:46:15,080 --> 02:46:17,400
Speaker 2: never really been any significant opposition to them, and that's

3218
02:46:17,480 --> 02:46:20,840
Speaker 2: changed now they have to obviously, just like everywhere else,

3219
02:46:20,840 --> 02:46:22,959
Speaker 2: watch out for drones, right, drones have been used to

3220
02:46:23,000 --> 02:46:28,000
Speaker 2: a massive extent in Myanmar, and like the AA doesn't

3221
02:46:28,000 --> 02:46:30,720
Speaker 2: have as many like associated PDFs. I haven't seen them

3222
02:46:30,840 --> 02:46:34,200
Speaker 2: doing as much of the drone stuff as the PDFs.

3223
02:46:34,360 --> 02:46:37,879
Speaker 2: The pdf tend to be like the more urban folks, right,

3224
02:46:37,879 --> 02:46:41,119
Speaker 2: the younger folks and the gen Z folks that we've

3225
02:46:41,120 --> 02:46:43,600
Speaker 2: spoken about before, and a lot of them have been

3226
02:46:43,800 --> 02:46:45,840
Speaker 2: very savvy with their use of drones. Like I said,

3227
02:46:45,879 --> 02:46:47,880
Speaker 2: you can look up Federal Wings and you can see

3228
02:46:47,920 --> 02:46:51,000
Speaker 2: them dropping bombs with drones on all kinds of stuff

3229
02:46:51,440 --> 02:46:54,560
Speaker 2: with their heavy metal soundtracks that they like. But that

3230
02:46:55,600 --> 02:46:57,920
Speaker 2: it wasn't even drone here. It's pretty simple. It was

3231
02:46:57,959 --> 02:47:01,640
Speaker 2: just mine so things they love, mines and mead mines

3232
02:47:01,640 --> 02:47:05,199
Speaker 2: all over that country. But in this case, these I guess,

3233
02:47:05,200 --> 02:47:07,880
Speaker 2: massive what mines in the rivers. Given that the Hunter

3234
02:47:08,080 --> 02:47:11,560
Speaker 2: is the only only entity sending big boats up and down,

3235
02:47:12,040 --> 02:47:13,480
Speaker 2: you could set them at a certain depth where these

3236
02:47:13,480 --> 02:47:15,960
Speaker 2: small boats wouldn't hit them, and eventually one of the

3237
02:47:16,080 --> 02:47:17,800
Speaker 2: Hunter boats is going to hit them, I guess. And

3238
02:47:18,080 --> 02:47:21,560
Speaker 2: so it's pretty basic technology, but it's still a massive

3239
02:47:21,560 --> 02:47:24,280
Speaker 2: step forward in terms of like a place where the

3240
02:47:24,360 --> 02:47:28,560
Speaker 2: state had complete impunity, it now doesn't. Right, they can't

3241
02:47:28,600 --> 02:47:31,080
Speaker 2: just cruise up and down these rivers shelling people. They

3242
02:47:31,080 --> 02:47:33,800
Speaker 2: were actually using some of the ships to evacuate soldiers

3243
02:47:33,800 --> 02:47:36,560
Speaker 2: and their families from a position. The soldiers they were

3244
02:47:36,600 --> 02:47:38,720
Speaker 2: trying to like, rather than surrendering, they were trying to

3245
02:47:38,760 --> 02:47:42,480
Speaker 2: evacuate them and move them to somewhere else. The AA

3246
02:47:42,520 --> 02:47:43,920
Speaker 2: asked them to surrender, and they didn't. They tried to

3247
02:47:43,959 --> 02:47:46,600
Speaker 2: evacuate them, so then they mined the ships and took

3248
02:47:46,640 --> 02:47:50,840
Speaker 2: those out. I think the hunters like tried to spin

3249
02:47:50,879 --> 02:47:54,360
Speaker 2: this as like the AA is attacking civilians, but I

3250
02:47:54,360 --> 02:47:57,520
Speaker 2: think a Burmese Navy ship with a Burmese Navy flag,

3251
02:47:57,879 --> 02:47:59,640
Speaker 2: when those ships have just been shelling you, seems like

3252
02:47:59,680 --> 02:48:01,560
Speaker 2: a legit fro the target. To me, I think it's

3253
02:48:01,640 --> 02:48:04,640
Speaker 2: very hard. It's you know, it's a hunter, but children

3254
02:48:04,800 --> 02:48:07,640
Speaker 2: on one of their naval ships rather than the AA

3255
02:48:07,680 --> 02:48:10,360
Speaker 2: who attacked the ship because it had children. You can

3256
02:48:10,400 --> 02:48:12,400
Speaker 2: hear in one of the things you can hear the

3257
02:48:12,480 --> 02:48:14,920
Speaker 2: AA are like attacking the ship in small boats and

3258
02:48:14,920 --> 02:48:17,120
Speaker 2: they're shouting like there are children on board, and you

3259
02:48:17,120 --> 02:48:19,240
Speaker 2: can hear them acknowledging it. And there are videos of

3260
02:48:19,280 --> 02:48:23,959
Speaker 2: the AA rescuing people who jumped overboard, rescuing them from

3261
02:48:24,040 --> 02:48:26,240
Speaker 2: the river, and then like, I guess they've just held

3262
02:48:26,280 --> 02:48:32,400
Speaker 2: us POWs cool. Yeah, it's cool, it's interesting. Obviously, not

3263
02:48:32,440 --> 02:48:37,240
Speaker 2: many of us have access to underwater minds, but you know,

3264
02:48:37,560 --> 02:48:40,320
Speaker 2: maybe in a fictional future we might. Yeah.

3265
02:48:40,440 --> 02:48:45,359
Speaker 1: Well, there you go, folks. This has been irregular naval warfare.

3266
02:48:45,400 --> 02:48:50,840
Speaker 1: And you a podcast about a regular naval warfare, and you.

3267
02:48:51,760 --> 02:48:54,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, send us to your videos of yourselves in a

3268
02:48:54,400 --> 02:48:55,160
Speaker 2: regular naval war.

3269
02:48:55,280 --> 02:48:55,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

3270
02:48:55,440 --> 02:48:56,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely, go out there.

3271
02:48:56,520 --> 02:48:59,959
Speaker 1: Look how about this, Every listener, go out and sing

3272
02:49:00,240 --> 02:49:04,120
Speaker 1: one naval vessel, you know, doesn't matter who's.

3273
02:49:03,600 --> 02:49:04,480
Speaker 2: Just any boat.

3274
02:49:04,520 --> 02:49:07,960
Speaker 1: Any go sink a boat, any boat, take out, superyot,

3275
02:49:08,600 --> 02:49:11,879
Speaker 1: knock it out. You see a dinghy, take that fucker out,

3276
02:49:12,000 --> 02:49:14,440
Speaker 1: people kayaking, fuck them up, you know.

3277
02:49:14,760 --> 02:49:15,320
Speaker 2: On a boat?

3278
02:49:15,959 --> 02:49:19,119
Speaker 1: Absolutely, a banana boat for sure. One of those weird

3279
02:49:19,280 --> 02:49:21,600
Speaker 1: duck boat car things that they have in some city.

3280
02:49:21,640 --> 02:49:24,280
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, actually, you know what, you don't need to

3281
02:49:24,280 --> 02:49:26,760
Speaker 1: do anything with that that'll kill everybody on board on it.

3282
02:49:27,160 --> 02:49:30,680
Speaker 2: Those things are traps. Just pray for those.

3283
02:49:31,360 --> 02:49:31,880
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3284
02:49:32,160 --> 02:49:34,480
Speaker 2: Any other boat. Yeah, you see a doughnut, you know,

3285
02:49:34,600 --> 02:49:36,439
Speaker 2: behind being behind a speedboat?

3286
02:49:36,640 --> 02:50:00,119
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, murk it anyway, everybody go away.

3287
02:50:01,640 --> 02:50:03,800
Speaker 11: Welcome to dick it app and here a podcast about

3288
02:50:03,800 --> 02:50:06,400
Speaker 11: things falling apart and putting it back together again. I'm

3289
02:50:06,400 --> 02:50:11,720
Speaker 11: Mia Wong, I'm with Garrison, and it is my singular

3290
02:50:11,760 --> 02:50:14,920
Speaker 11: honor and pleasure to introduce our guest, doctor Julia Serrano.

3291
02:50:15,000 --> 02:50:18,959
Speaker 11: She is the author of many books including Excluded, Making

3292
02:50:19,000 --> 02:50:22,640
Speaker 11: Feminist and core movements more inclusive, Sex Stop, How Society

3293
02:50:22,680 --> 02:50:25,959
Speaker 11: Sexualizes Us, and How We Can Fight Back, Outspoken, A

3294
02:50:26,000 --> 02:50:30,520
Speaker 11: Decade of Transgender Activism and Transfeminism, and most famously, Whipping Girl,

3295
02:50:30,560 --> 02:50:32,720
Speaker 11: a new edition of which is coming out in March.

3296
02:50:32,920 --> 02:50:34,400
Speaker 11: Doctor Serrano, welcome to the show.

3297
02:50:36,040 --> 02:50:37,040
Speaker 13: Hi, thanks for having me.

3298
02:50:38,200 --> 02:50:40,720
Speaker 11: I'm really really I'm really happy you can join us.

3299
02:50:41,400 --> 02:50:47,040
Speaker 11: So okay. Whipping Girl, I think is really one of

3300
02:50:47,120 --> 02:50:50,320
Speaker 11: the one of quietly the most influential books of the

3301
02:50:50,320 --> 02:50:52,840
Speaker 11: twenty first century, to the extent that in kind of

3302
02:50:52,879 --> 02:50:55,800
Speaker 11: classic trans woman fashion. I don't think I don't think

3303
02:50:55,840 --> 02:50:58,959
Speaker 11: people realize that the ideas that it introduced have an origin.

3304
02:50:59,760 --> 02:51:01,760
Speaker 11: So so for people who haven't read the book, and

3305
02:51:01,800 --> 02:51:04,280
Speaker 11: you should, this book is great. I guarantee you have

3306
02:51:04,360 --> 02:51:08,080
Speaker 11: seen its influence. If you've ever heard someone like who's

3307
02:51:08,120 --> 02:51:11,480
Speaker 11: not trans referred to as sis like, that's that's from

3308
02:51:11,520 --> 02:51:15,800
Speaker 11: this book. The concept of misgendering is also from this book.

3309
02:51:16,200 --> 02:51:21,320
Speaker 11: The word trans misogyny like also from this book, and

3310
02:51:21,680 --> 02:51:26,039
Speaker 11: this I think gets at something from the twenty fifteen

3311
02:51:26,080 --> 02:51:30,160
Speaker 11: second edition preface that you wrote, which is something I've

3312
02:51:30,200 --> 02:51:32,400
Speaker 11: been wondering about, is what is it like to sort

3313
02:51:32,400 --> 02:51:35,280
Speaker 11: of experience writing a book and have it just like

3314
02:51:35,480 --> 02:51:37,040
Speaker 11: ripple across society like this.

3315
02:51:38,200 --> 02:51:38,960
Speaker 13: Yeah, it's uh.

3316
02:51:40,200 --> 02:51:42,400
Speaker 14: I was very much hoping, and you know, as I

3317
02:51:42,440 --> 02:51:44,360
Speaker 14: was writing it, I was hoping that I thought that

3318
02:51:44,440 --> 02:51:47,720
Speaker 14: it would resonate with a lot of trans female and

3319
02:51:47,760 --> 02:51:51,680
Speaker 14: trans feminine people, and I hope trans communities more generally,

3320
02:51:52,280 --> 02:51:54,520
Speaker 14: and the book. This is something that a lot of

3321
02:51:54,520 --> 02:51:56,800
Speaker 14: times people who pick up the book now and like

3322
02:51:56,879 --> 02:52:00,440
Speaker 14: the twenty twenties don't necessarily realize, is that he was

3323
02:52:00,480 --> 02:52:05,520
Speaker 14: reading anything about trans people outside of feminists and LGBTQ

3324
02:52:06,000 --> 02:52:10,280
Speaker 14: plus communities, and so I was basically just speaking to

3325
02:52:10,360 --> 02:52:13,240
Speaker 14: those groups, and I thought it would resonate with some people.

3326
02:52:13,320 --> 02:52:16,400
Speaker 14: But yeah, definitely it kind of went out into the

3327
02:52:16,400 --> 02:52:19,360
Speaker 14: world and did a bunch of stuff that I wasn't

3328
02:52:19,840 --> 02:52:23,520
Speaker 14: necessarily expecting. And I'm very glad that the book has

3329
02:52:24,000 --> 02:52:27,039
Speaker 14: kind of touched a lot of people's lives and changed,

3330
02:52:27,560 --> 02:52:33,000
Speaker 14: you know, kind of societal understanding and quote unquote discourses

3331
02:52:33,080 --> 02:52:34,000
Speaker 14: about trans people.

3332
02:52:34,080 --> 02:52:38,480
Speaker 7: So yeah, it must be kind of bizarre, like being

3333
02:52:38,520 --> 02:52:42,039
Speaker 7: twenty years ago writing about you know, caniche term like

3334
02:52:42,200 --> 02:52:46,200
Speaker 7: cis and now the richest man in the world thinks

3335
02:52:46,240 --> 02:52:48,320
Speaker 7: it's like the most evil word.

3336
02:52:50,400 --> 02:52:53,840
Speaker 14: Yeah, it's quite bizarre, and I do want to definitely

3337
02:52:53,920 --> 02:52:55,360
Speaker 14: kind of clear this up, but I kind of make

3338
02:52:55,400 --> 02:52:57,520
Speaker 14: this clear in the preface. So I didn't in vet

3339
02:52:58,040 --> 02:53:01,359
Speaker 14: like sis versus trans like a that's like a prefix

3340
02:53:01,400 --> 02:53:05,160
Speaker 14: that has existed a long time, and I've since seen

3341
02:53:05,240 --> 02:53:08,840
Speaker 14: other people like point out, oh, this person was using

3342
02:53:08,920 --> 02:53:14,280
Speaker 14: it in nineteen ninety something, or some German writer like

3343
02:53:14,400 --> 02:53:18,320
Speaker 14: coined cis vestism or something like back a million years ago.

3344
02:53:18,760 --> 02:53:20,600
Speaker 14: So what I will say is that when I when

3345
02:53:20,600 --> 02:53:23,160
Speaker 14: I put out the book, I was inspired by Emi Koyama,

3346
02:53:23,200 --> 02:53:28,439
Speaker 14: who was and is an awesome activist, intersex activist who's

3347
02:53:28,440 --> 02:53:32,440
Speaker 14: written a lot of really influential trans related essays over

3348
02:53:32,480 --> 02:53:36,360
Speaker 14: the years. And it was from her blog post that

3349
02:53:36,480 --> 02:53:38,320
Speaker 14: was the first time I saw sis and trans and

3350
02:53:38,879 --> 02:53:41,680
Speaker 14: the idea of cis sexism. And at the time, it

3351
02:53:41,720 --> 02:53:43,879
Speaker 14: was while I was writing the book, and it really

3352
02:53:44,640 --> 02:53:46,280
Speaker 14: I was like, oh my god, this is kind of

3353
02:53:46,320 --> 02:53:48,800
Speaker 14: the overall idea I was talking about all these different

3354
02:53:48,879 --> 02:53:52,800
Speaker 14: facets of basically double standards between trans and non trans people,

3355
02:53:53,400 --> 02:53:56,039
Speaker 14: and so I kind of grabbed on to it, and

3356
02:53:56,080 --> 02:53:59,200
Speaker 14: I was really worried about it actually because nobody, almost

3357
02:53:59,200 --> 02:54:01,640
Speaker 14: nobody was using those terms. It was very niche at

3358
02:54:01,640 --> 02:54:05,320
Speaker 14: the time, and so the book popularized that language. And

3359
02:54:05,360 --> 02:54:07,800
Speaker 14: so now it is kind of funny every once in

3360
02:54:07,840 --> 02:54:13,879
Speaker 14: a while seeing yes, over reactions by SIS people to

3361
02:54:13,920 --> 02:54:18,640
Speaker 14: the idea of SIS being a slur or whatever. So yeah,

3362
02:54:18,840 --> 02:54:22,080
Speaker 14: and so yeah, so that's definitely something that is kind

3363
02:54:22,120 --> 02:54:24,560
Speaker 14: of is the one thing I one thing I did

3364
02:54:24,600 --> 02:54:27,119
Speaker 14: coin in the book that has kind of also taken

3365
02:54:27,120 --> 02:54:29,680
Speaker 14: a life on its own is trans misogyny. So that

3366
02:54:29,800 --> 02:54:33,600
Speaker 14: is something that kind of originated with this book and

3367
02:54:33,720 --> 02:54:36,560
Speaker 14: particularly a chap book that I wrote in two thousand

3368
02:54:36,560 --> 02:54:39,320
Speaker 14: and five that some of those essays became chapters of

3369
02:54:39,440 --> 02:54:41,720
Speaker 14: the book. And yeah, and so there are other ideas

3370
02:54:41,760 --> 02:54:44,040
Speaker 14: that kind of are out there, Like I think it

3371
02:54:44,080 --> 02:54:45,920
Speaker 14: was one of the first. I think it was the

3372
02:54:45,959 --> 02:54:48,120
Speaker 14: first book to talk about like the idea of SIS

3373
02:54:48,160 --> 02:54:52,160
Speaker 14: privilege misgendering is an idea was out there, but I

3374
02:54:52,240 --> 02:54:56,000
Speaker 14: kind of dove into it a little bit deeper. So yeah,

3375
02:54:56,040 --> 02:54:57,720
Speaker 14: So there are definitely things I was doing at the

3376
02:54:57,720 --> 02:55:02,360
Speaker 14: time that I didn't know whether be to abstract or

3377
02:55:02,360 --> 02:55:04,680
Speaker 14: how they'd be taken up, And so yes, it's been

3378
02:55:04,800 --> 02:55:05,439
Speaker 14: very interesting.

3379
02:55:06,600 --> 02:55:09,480
Speaker 11: Yeah, I wanted to talk about misgendering a bit because

3380
02:55:09,480 --> 02:55:12,040
Speaker 11: I think it's become this word that just means not

3381
02:55:12,160 --> 02:55:16,400
Speaker 11: saying someone's pronouns correctly, and I think that's, at the

3382
02:55:16,560 --> 02:55:21,720
Speaker 11: very best, like an incredibly reductionist and simplified version of

3383
02:55:21,720 --> 02:55:23,600
Speaker 11: the analysis that you were presenting. So I guess I

3384
02:55:23,600 --> 02:55:26,959
Speaker 11: have two questions here. One, can you briefly sort of

3385
02:55:27,000 --> 02:55:29,480
Speaker 11: talk about what you were trying to get at when

3386
02:55:29,520 --> 02:55:33,160
Speaker 11: you sort of did your analysis of the process of gendering,

3387
02:55:33,360 --> 02:55:35,920
Speaker 11: and too, what do you think about the way that

3388
02:55:35,959 --> 02:55:39,640
Speaker 11: it's kind of become flattened into this I don't know,

3389
02:55:39,840 --> 02:55:43,400
Speaker 11: kind of weirdly narrow thing in modern discourse.

3390
02:55:44,240 --> 02:55:49,119
Speaker 14: Sure, and a lot of the miss gendering definitely dovetails

3391
02:55:49,160 --> 02:55:51,920
Speaker 14: with the idea of passing, and a lot of my

3392
02:55:52,240 --> 02:55:54,480
Speaker 14: kind of diving into it in a particular way came

3393
02:55:54,520 --> 02:55:57,680
Speaker 14: from critiques that I had and other trans people had

3394
02:55:58,160 --> 02:56:00,920
Speaker 14: as well, but I kind of, you know, put them

3395
02:56:00,959 --> 02:56:04,840
Speaker 14: together in a particularly in the dismantling I think it's

3396
02:56:04,920 --> 02:56:08,160
Speaker 14: dismantling Sexual Privileged chapter where I kind of go through

3397
02:56:08,200 --> 02:56:11,560
Speaker 14: all these steps that lead to miss gendering, because I

3398
02:56:11,640 --> 02:56:14,680
Speaker 14: think people talk about trans people passing and also the

3399
02:56:14,720 --> 02:56:17,879
Speaker 14: people will talk about other marginalized groups passing is whatever

3400
02:56:18,000 --> 02:56:22,880
Speaker 14: dominant majority group. The term obviously had long been used

3401
02:56:23,200 --> 02:56:26,920
Speaker 14: with regards to people of color passing is white and

3402
02:56:27,120 --> 02:56:31,400
Speaker 14: in kind of white racist, you know, us and other societies.

3403
02:56:31,440 --> 02:56:34,560
Speaker 14: So it's an old term, and a big problem with

3404
02:56:34,640 --> 02:56:36,760
Speaker 14: it is that it makes it sound like we're doing

3405
02:56:36,840 --> 02:56:41,199
Speaker 14: something active, that trans people are actively trying to deceive

3406
02:56:41,280 --> 02:56:44,960
Speaker 14: other people, with huge scare quotes around the word deceive.

3407
02:56:45,920 --> 02:56:49,640
Speaker 14: And I really wanted to highlight to people that actually

3408
02:56:50,280 --> 02:56:55,440
Speaker 14: all of us very unconsciously and very compulsively gender every

3409
02:56:55,480 --> 02:56:58,280
Speaker 14: single person we meet, or at least that's how we're

3410
02:56:58,320 --> 02:56:59,160
Speaker 14: socialized to be.

3411
02:56:59,720 --> 02:57:01,480
Speaker 13: And you know, you can work towards.

3412
02:57:01,280 --> 02:57:06,119
Speaker 14: Getting you know, overcoming that, but I wanted to really

3413
02:57:06,200 --> 02:57:09,640
Speaker 14: highlight the fact that we see people, we automatically gender them,

3414
02:57:09,879 --> 02:57:14,840
Speaker 14: and that puts people who do not quite who your

3415
02:57:14,879 --> 02:57:18,800
Speaker 14: presumptions are wrong about. It puts us in difficult situations.

3416
02:57:19,160 --> 02:57:23,039
Speaker 14: It's a double bind, where do you reveal what you

3417
02:57:23,120 --> 02:57:26,959
Speaker 14: supposedly really are, or do you just allow people to

3418
02:57:27,040 --> 02:57:30,360
Speaker 14: read you that way? And it works out very differently,

3419
02:57:30,400 --> 02:57:34,640
Speaker 14: for instance, between trans and say CIS gay people, because

3420
02:57:34,640 --> 02:57:38,000
Speaker 14: when cis gay people talk about passing is straight, their

3421
02:57:38,120 --> 02:57:40,520
Speaker 14: passing is something that they know that they are not,

3422
02:57:41,560 --> 02:57:43,800
Speaker 14: whereas for a lot of trans people, people read me

3423
02:57:43,800 --> 02:57:46,480
Speaker 14: as a woman and I understand myself.

3424
02:57:46,120 --> 02:57:46,840
Speaker 13: To be a woman.

3425
02:57:47,360 --> 02:57:50,600
Speaker 14: There's it's a very different dynamic because it's not like

3426
02:57:50,680 --> 02:57:54,600
Speaker 14: I'm not hiding anything, but people are presuming what I'm

3427
02:57:54,640 --> 02:57:57,320
Speaker 14: really passing as is I'm passing a CIS gender and

3428
02:57:57,440 --> 02:58:02,240
Speaker 14: people are assuming I'm sis gender when the trans is

3429
02:58:02,240 --> 02:58:05,360
Speaker 14: the thing that I might need to or feel like

3430
02:58:05,560 --> 02:58:08,080
Speaker 14: I need to clear up or other people might put

3431
02:58:08,120 --> 02:58:13,120
Speaker 14: pressure on me to either tell them that I'm trans

3432
02:58:13,520 --> 02:58:17,280
Speaker 14: or be accused of deceiving them. So that's a little

3433
02:58:17,280 --> 02:58:20,360
Speaker 14: bit of kind of how I was approaching it when

3434
02:58:20,400 --> 02:58:23,280
Speaker 14: I started working on that idea and really stressing the

3435
02:58:23,320 --> 02:58:27,080
Speaker 14: idea of you can't understand miss gendering unless you understand

3436
02:58:27,480 --> 02:58:30,400
Speaker 14: that we make assumptions all the time, We gender people

3437
02:58:30,720 --> 02:58:35,119
Speaker 14: very actively, and you know, so trans people are often

3438
02:58:35,360 --> 02:58:39,280
Speaker 14: just reacting to that and dealing with that double bind.

3439
02:58:40,840 --> 02:58:43,200
Speaker 11: Yeah, and this is something that I think is interestingly

3440
02:58:43,200 --> 02:58:49,120
Speaker 11: discussed in the book about like kind of this this

3441
02:58:49,320 --> 02:58:52,720
Speaker 11: issue with some of the sort of prevailing gender theories

3442
02:58:52,760 --> 02:58:56,800
Speaker 11: which thought of which think about sort of like femininity

3443
02:58:56,800 --> 02:59:01,119
Speaker 11: and gender is pure performance. But and this is I think,

3444
02:59:01,200 --> 02:59:02,680
Speaker 11: like the argument that you were making that I think

3445
02:59:02,760 --> 02:59:05,760
Speaker 11: is really interesting is that something that I think is

3446
02:59:05,760 --> 02:59:09,760
Speaker 11: is very obvious to trans people is that so much

3447
02:59:09,760 --> 02:59:12,440
Speaker 11: of gender is how people perceive you and how you

3448
02:59:12,480 --> 02:59:14,440
Speaker 11: know and stuff that like you don't have any control over.

3449
02:59:14,520 --> 02:59:17,640
Speaker 11: It's how people sort of gender you. It's how people

3450
02:59:17,840 --> 02:59:21,640
Speaker 11: like construct a gender around you in ways that you

3451
02:59:21,680 --> 02:59:23,360
Speaker 11: don't really have control over.

3452
02:59:25,280 --> 02:59:29,520
Speaker 14: Yeah, and that was a big thing. So in kind

3453
02:59:29,560 --> 02:59:32,640
Speaker 14: of I was writing the book in the mid two thousands,

3454
02:59:33,240 --> 02:59:38,400
Speaker 14: and so the nineteen nineties is when Judith Butler publishes

3455
02:59:38,480 --> 02:59:42,600
Speaker 14: Gender Trouble, which Butler never said all genders performance are

3456
02:59:42,640 --> 02:59:45,720
Speaker 14: all genders drag, Yeah, but that is, but that those

3457
02:59:45,720 --> 02:59:49,040
Speaker 14: are like slogans or soundbites that other people took from

3458
02:59:49,080 --> 02:59:52,200
Speaker 14: their book, right, and they were very popular at the time.

3459
02:59:52,680 --> 02:59:58,160
Speaker 14: There's also there's a famous sociological article about doing gender,

3460
02:59:58,560 --> 03:00:01,920
Speaker 14: and so people were very focused on the way in

3461
03:00:01,959 --> 03:00:08,440
Speaker 14: which we create gender by doing it particular ways, and

3462
03:00:09,120 --> 03:00:12,480
Speaker 14: a lot of the slogans within trans communities were sort

3463
03:00:12,520 --> 03:00:15,240
Speaker 14: of like, oh, well, you know, I just have to

3464
03:00:15,240 --> 03:00:18,720
Speaker 14: do my gender differently, like more transgressively, and that will

3465
03:00:19,120 --> 03:00:21,560
Speaker 14: like tear down all of gender. And I felt that

3466
03:00:21,600 --> 03:00:24,400
Speaker 14: there was you know, that is an aspect of things,

3467
03:00:24,440 --> 03:00:28,160
Speaker 14: and most of us, whether trans or cists, most of

3468
03:00:28,240 --> 03:00:32,039
Speaker 14: us have had the experience of maybe trying.

3469
03:00:32,760 --> 03:00:34,680
Speaker 13: To perform our genders in a particular way in.

3470
03:00:34,760 --> 03:00:38,520
Speaker 14: Order to like, you know, not you know, in order

3471
03:00:38,640 --> 03:00:41,280
Speaker 14: in order to get by in the world, in order

3472
03:00:41,360 --> 03:00:43,680
Speaker 14: to not be harassed by other people.

3473
03:00:44,520 --> 03:00:45,880
Speaker 13: So we've all had that experience.

3474
03:00:46,240 --> 03:00:50,119
Speaker 14: So while that's true, there's the other partner of that dance,

3475
03:00:50,160 --> 03:00:54,920
Speaker 14: and that's perception, and we're all perceiving people very actively,

3476
03:00:55,120 --> 03:00:58,480
Speaker 14: and we're like projecting our ideas and meanings onto them.

3477
03:00:58,840 --> 03:01:00,880
Speaker 14: And I felt like that was being under discussed at

3478
03:01:00,920 --> 03:01:04,320
Speaker 14: the time, and that was not only a huge part

3479
03:01:04,440 --> 03:01:08,760
Speaker 14: of Whipping Girl, but that's become a part of a

3480
03:01:08,760 --> 03:01:11,440
Speaker 14: lot of my other books, like including my most recent book,

3481
03:01:11,480 --> 03:01:14,440
Speaker 14: sext Up, How Society sexualizes us and.

3482
03:01:14,400 --> 03:01:15,360
Speaker 13: How we can fight back.

3483
03:01:16,720 --> 03:01:19,680
Speaker 14: One way that I would describe that book is it's

3484
03:01:19,920 --> 03:01:24,160
Speaker 14: talking about sex and sexuality, not from what people do,

3485
03:01:24,280 --> 03:01:28,240
Speaker 14: but from how we perceive and interpret sex and sexuality,

3486
03:01:28,240 --> 03:01:32,240
Speaker 14: because there are a lot of unconscious ideas, often really

3487
03:01:32,560 --> 03:01:36,520
Speaker 14: horrible ideas, really hierarchical ideas that are kind of built

3488
03:01:36,520 --> 03:01:39,320
Speaker 14: into the way we view the world. And interrogating that

3489
03:01:39,720 --> 03:01:41,600
Speaker 14: and so, yeah, that was a very big part of

3490
03:01:42,000 --> 03:01:42,959
Speaker 14: both Whippen Girl.

3491
03:01:42,840 --> 03:01:44,400
Speaker 13: And then my writings since then.

3492
03:01:46,320 --> 03:01:48,240
Speaker 11: Yeah, and I think I think that is something where

3493
03:01:48,320 --> 03:01:50,920
Speaker 11: things have gotten better in terms of in terms of

3494
03:01:50,920 --> 03:01:53,840
Speaker 11: how we think about gender, which I don't know, like

3495
03:01:54,040 --> 03:01:58,680
Speaker 11: things aren't perfect, but it definitely it definitely improved things

3496
03:01:58,720 --> 03:01:59,439
Speaker 11: a lot.

3497
03:02:00,080 --> 03:02:01,840
Speaker 13: Agreed, we're going.

3498
03:02:01,800 --> 03:02:03,760
Speaker 11: To take an ad break and when we come back,

3499
03:02:03,840 --> 03:02:07,800
Speaker 11: we're talking trans misogyny.

3500
03:02:16,959 --> 03:02:18,360
Speaker 2: We're back. Yeah.

3501
03:02:18,400 --> 03:02:20,840
Speaker 11: So then other thing I wanted to sort of talk

3502
03:02:20,879 --> 03:02:25,240
Speaker 11: about was I think, in like exactly the opposite process

3503
03:02:25,240 --> 03:02:29,600
Speaker 11: that happened to misgendering, trans misogyny has become a lot

3504
03:02:29,640 --> 03:02:35,199
Speaker 11: more expansive than your original sort of kind of narrow

3505
03:02:36,080 --> 03:02:38,560
Speaker 11: conception of it. And I think this has been changing

3506
03:02:38,560 --> 03:02:42,000
Speaker 11: a lot, especially in the last about half decade or so.

3507
03:02:42,000 --> 03:02:44,800
Speaker 11: So I was wondering what you think about the way

3508
03:02:44,800 --> 03:02:46,760
Speaker 11: that this concept has kind of taken on a life

3509
03:02:46,800 --> 03:02:48,720
Speaker 11: of its own. In recent years and what it's been

3510
03:02:49,680 --> 03:02:50,440
Speaker 11: doing since.

3511
03:02:51,400 --> 03:02:55,520
Speaker 14: Yeah, So I feel like trans misogyny that there are

3512
03:02:55,520 --> 03:03:00,400
Speaker 14: a lot of different dialogues and discourses about it coming

3513
03:03:00,560 --> 03:03:04,360
Speaker 14: like people coming from different perspectives with it, and some

3514
03:03:04,400 --> 03:03:08,360
Speaker 14: people feeling like the world is doing things that I

3515
03:03:08,480 --> 03:03:10,560
Speaker 14: never suggested it was doing.

3516
03:03:11,240 --> 03:03:13,519
Speaker 13: It's kind of hard to know like where to actually.

3517
03:03:13,160 --> 03:03:16,600
Speaker 14: Come in on this, but for me, when I was

3518
03:03:16,640 --> 03:03:20,360
Speaker 14: first writing about it, I was first just noticing that

3519
03:03:20,520 --> 03:03:23,000
Speaker 14: a lot of the quote unquote transphobia that I was

3520
03:03:23,040 --> 03:03:26,000
Speaker 14: facing when people know as a trans woman was actually

3521
03:03:26,520 --> 03:03:28,760
Speaker 14: a lot of it was just misogyny, and a lot

3522
03:03:28,840 --> 03:03:33,840
Speaker 14: of it targeted like kind of my femininity rather than

3523
03:03:35,160 --> 03:03:39,600
Speaker 14: my transness, And so I wanted to write about that,

3524
03:03:40,160 --> 03:03:42,600
Speaker 14: and kind of the way that I framed it in

3525
03:03:43,840 --> 03:03:47,039
Speaker 14: the book was, which I think is a really useful

3526
03:03:47,200 --> 03:03:50,039
Speaker 14: kind of model for thinking about it, is that there

3527
03:03:50,120 --> 03:03:52,960
Speaker 14: most of the types of sexism that feminists have described

3528
03:03:53,320 --> 03:03:56,199
Speaker 14: over the many years fall into two sort of camps,

3529
03:03:56,640 --> 03:04:01,040
Speaker 14: one of them being oppositional sexism, which is the idea

3530
03:04:01,120 --> 03:04:04,440
Speaker 14: that men and women are kind of perfectly opposite, mutually

3531
03:04:04,480 --> 03:04:09,440
Speaker 14: exclusive sexes that have different interests and attributes and desires,

3532
03:04:10,000 --> 03:04:12,520
Speaker 14: and so a lot of transphobia and homophobia are kind

3533
03:04:12,560 --> 03:04:15,360
Speaker 14: of like built into this idea that men and women

3534
03:04:15,400 --> 03:04:16,480
Speaker 14: are completely distinct.

3535
03:04:17,400 --> 03:04:19,279
Speaker 13: And then the other one is traditional.

3536
03:04:18,959 --> 03:04:23,039
Speaker 14: Sexism, which is the idea that femalists and femininity are

3537
03:04:23,160 --> 03:04:25,320
Speaker 14: less legitimate than malness and masculinity.

3538
03:04:26,360 --> 03:04:30,800
Speaker 13: And a lot of CIS feminists have kind of.

3539
03:04:31,080 --> 03:04:33,879
Speaker 14: Viewed all of that as just sexism, right, But when

3540
03:04:33,920 --> 03:04:36,480
Speaker 14: you break it down like that, it makes it clear

3541
03:04:36,520 --> 03:04:38,440
Speaker 14: that the double bind that a lot of feminists have

3542
03:04:38,480 --> 03:04:42,280
Speaker 14: talked about is actually kind of these two different forms

3543
03:04:42,320 --> 03:04:47,840
Speaker 14: of sexism. So if a CIS woman acts appropriately femininely,

3544
03:04:48,000 --> 03:04:51,920
Speaker 14: so appropriate with scare quotes. If a SIS woman acts femininely,

3545
03:04:52,240 --> 03:04:57,000
Speaker 14: she'll be seen as appropriate, but she'll be dismissed because

3546
03:04:57,040 --> 03:05:00,760
Speaker 14: femininity is dismissed in our culture, so that's the way

3547
03:05:00,760 --> 03:05:03,960
Speaker 14: that she'll be delegitimized. Whereas if she acts in ways

3548
03:05:04,320 --> 03:05:06,680
Speaker 14: that are coded as masculine, and if she acts assertive

3549
03:05:06,800 --> 03:05:12,280
Speaker 14: or aggressive, then people will malign her for being kind

3550
03:05:12,320 --> 03:05:16,240
Speaker 14: of a barrant or deviant. Right, And so oppositional sexism

3551
03:05:16,560 --> 03:05:20,040
Speaker 14: helps keep traditional sexism in place because you can say

3552
03:05:20,080 --> 03:05:24,119
Speaker 14: that maln is a masculinity or superior but that only

3553
03:05:24,160 --> 03:05:26,920
Speaker 14: works if you can also make a clear distinction between

3554
03:05:27,560 --> 03:05:30,000
Speaker 14: you know, those people and people are female and.

3555
03:05:29,920 --> 03:05:32,720
Speaker 13: Feminine, and so I think this plays out differently.

3556
03:05:34,120 --> 03:05:36,440
Speaker 14: And I want to be really clear about this because

3557
03:05:36,440 --> 03:05:39,840
Speaker 14: some people have interpreted trans misogyny to mean that trans

3558
03:05:39,840 --> 03:05:43,240
Speaker 14: mail and trans masculine people don't experience misogyny, which is

3559
03:05:43,280 --> 03:05:46,520
Speaker 14: something I have never said. And obviously the fact that

3560
03:05:47,160 --> 03:05:53,080
Speaker 14: oppositional sexism is a form of sexism, and obviously trans

3561
03:05:53,080 --> 03:05:56,520
Speaker 14: maild trans masculine people experience that. But also depending upon

3562
03:05:56,560 --> 03:05:59,879
Speaker 14: how you're viewed by other people, I feel like this

3563
03:06:00,040 --> 03:06:04,040
Speaker 14: same double pined that affects this woman affects transmeild trans

3564
03:06:04,040 --> 03:06:07,120
Speaker 14: masculine people differently. Where there's this tendency, like in a

3565
03:06:07,160 --> 03:06:13,760
Speaker 14: lot of anti trans discourses to dismiss trans masculine, especially

3566
03:06:13,760 --> 03:06:17,680
Speaker 14: trans masculine youth as being merely girls quote unquote who

3567
03:06:17,720 --> 03:06:23,120
Speaker 14: are like you know, misled or seduced by gender ideology, right,

3568
03:06:23,600 --> 03:06:27,360
Speaker 14: And there's a lot of real anti feminine and anti

3569
03:06:27,400 --> 03:06:30,640
Speaker 14: misogynistic ideas in there in addition to the fact that

3570
03:06:30,680 --> 03:06:36,520
Speaker 14: it it misgenders transmeld trans masculine people. And then if

3571
03:06:36,600 --> 03:06:42,879
Speaker 14: trans mail trans masculine people when they experience transphobia. There's

3572
03:06:42,920 --> 03:06:46,800
Speaker 14: often you know, like they're seen as deviant for kind

3573
03:06:46,840 --> 03:06:51,800
Speaker 14: of breaking that role, but often the malness or their

3574
03:06:51,840 --> 03:06:56,920
Speaker 14: masculinity themselves are not, you know, denigrated in the same

3575
03:06:56,959 --> 03:07:00,720
Speaker 14: way because being now being masculine and are seen as

3576
03:07:00,720 --> 03:07:04,000
Speaker 14: good in our culture. It's just that if you trans male,

3577
03:07:04,040 --> 03:07:07,160
Speaker 14: trans masculine, it's like, well, you're quote unquote just a woman,

3578
03:07:07,280 --> 03:07:09,000
Speaker 14: so you can't do it. So I think it plays

3579
03:07:09,000 --> 03:07:12,160
Speaker 14: out in this very complex way for a lot of

3580
03:07:12,160 --> 03:07:16,800
Speaker 14: trans mail trans masculine people, I think for trans female

3581
03:07:16,800 --> 03:07:22,560
Speaker 14: and transfeminine people, because our crossing of oppositional sexism also

3582
03:07:22,560 --> 03:07:26,959
Speaker 14: involves us kind of moving towards the female towards the feminine,

3583
03:07:27,320 --> 03:07:31,400
Speaker 14: that there's kind of those two forces intersect in a

3584
03:07:31,440 --> 03:07:35,600
Speaker 14: way so that it's like exacerbated. And some of the

3585
03:07:35,640 --> 03:07:38,400
Speaker 14: ways I talk about this in Women Girl is that, well,

3586
03:07:38,440 --> 03:07:41,040
Speaker 14: we live in a world where masculinity is seen as

3587
03:07:41,080 --> 03:07:44,160
Speaker 14: natural and femininity is seen as artificial, and since trans

3588
03:07:44,200 --> 03:07:46,959
Speaker 14: people are also seen as artificial compared to sis gender people,

3589
03:07:47,280 --> 03:07:52,439
Speaker 14: a lot of times we're viewed as doubly artificial. Furthermore,

3590
03:07:52,480 --> 03:07:56,200
Speaker 14: the idea that like women are seen as sex objects

3591
03:07:56,240 --> 03:08:01,359
Speaker 14: whereas men aren't seen as sex objects often are transitions

3592
03:08:01,440 --> 03:08:04,920
Speaker 14: or gender transgressions towards a female towards a feminine are

3593
03:08:05,000 --> 03:08:08,360
Speaker 14: presumed to be driven by sexual motives that can play

3594
03:08:08,360 --> 03:08:10,840
Speaker 14: out in all sorts of ways. Whether this is the

3595
03:08:10,920 --> 03:08:15,039
Speaker 14: idea that we're like hypersexual or promiscuous, or that we

3596
03:08:15,160 --> 03:08:18,400
Speaker 14: want to be sexualized by other people, or you can

3597
03:08:18,400 --> 03:08:21,240
Speaker 14: see it a lot with the kind of the transgender

3598
03:08:21,280 --> 03:08:25,960
Speaker 14: predator is often coded as like a man who either

3599
03:08:26,040 --> 03:08:28,959
Speaker 14: has some kind of fetish or perversion or is just

3600
03:08:29,440 --> 03:08:32,840
Speaker 14: literally deceiving people to get into women's restrooms to do

3601
03:08:33,680 --> 03:08:36,440
Speaker 14: something horrific. So those are some of the ways that

3602
03:08:36,480 --> 03:08:41,520
Speaker 14: it plays out. I feel that sometimes people view it

3603
03:08:41,520 --> 03:08:44,480
Speaker 14: in a cut or dried way that either they'll assume

3604
03:08:44,560 --> 03:08:48,400
Speaker 14: that trans misogyny means that trans mental trans mascum people

3605
03:08:48,400 --> 03:08:51,600
Speaker 14: don't experience misogyny, which again is not what that's about.

3606
03:08:52,080 --> 03:08:55,520
Speaker 14: Or sometimes people will like try to make really clear distinctions.

3607
03:08:56,600 --> 03:09:00,600
Speaker 14: There's kind of language like trans misogyny effect did versus

3608
03:09:00,600 --> 03:09:06,279
Speaker 14: trans misogyny. Exempt are the terms yeah, TME and TMA,

3609
03:09:06,959 --> 03:09:08,519
Speaker 14: which are not terms I've used.

3610
03:09:08,440 --> 03:09:11,840
Speaker 13: And which or that I didn't coin them. They're not

3611
03:09:11,879 --> 03:09:12,320
Speaker 13: in the book.

3612
03:09:13,360 --> 03:09:17,039
Speaker 14: And I think that when I first saw that language,

3613
03:09:17,040 --> 03:09:19,840
Speaker 14: and I've seen people use it in a way that

3614
03:09:19,920 --> 03:09:22,800
Speaker 14: appreciates the fact that some people are non binary, so

3615
03:09:22,840 --> 03:09:24,560
Speaker 14: it's a non identity based way.

3616
03:09:24,879 --> 03:09:26,039
Speaker 13: Sometimes this can.

3617
03:09:25,920 --> 03:09:28,879
Speaker 14: Play out in a really cut or dried sort of

3618
03:09:28,920 --> 03:09:36,680
Speaker 14: manner that you know, sometimes you know, whether it's intended

3619
03:09:36,720 --> 03:09:38,840
Speaker 14: this way or not, it can make it seem that, like,

3620
03:09:39,480 --> 03:09:43,400
Speaker 14: you know, just boiling down of really complex experience, people's

3621
03:09:43,400 --> 03:09:46,920
Speaker 14: complex experiences with different types of sexism into some people

3622
03:09:47,360 --> 03:09:51,320
Speaker 14: are privileged and some people are marginalized, which I think

3623
03:09:51,400 --> 03:09:55,400
Speaker 14: is a more general problem that happens kind of throughout

3624
03:09:56,000 --> 03:09:57,640
Speaker 14: all social justice movements.

3625
03:09:57,680 --> 03:10:02,160
Speaker 7: So yeah, it turns people are not alien to having

3626
03:10:02,240 --> 03:10:07,000
Speaker 7: complex experiences be boiled down to three and four letter acronyms.

3627
03:10:07,280 --> 03:10:10,000
Speaker 7: So yeah, I mean.

3628
03:10:09,840 --> 03:10:14,600
Speaker 14: I did this in Twitter form, so it was like

3629
03:10:14,680 --> 03:10:18,520
Speaker 14: a thread, so like now, people can't access threads unless you.

3630
03:10:20,120 --> 03:10:22,480
Speaker 13: Have an account with Twitter. And it's from a couple

3631
03:10:22,520 --> 03:10:22,959
Speaker 13: of years ago.

3632
03:10:23,240 --> 03:10:25,080
Speaker 14: But one of the things that I talked about was

3633
03:10:25,080 --> 03:10:27,760
Speaker 14: I wrote this essay about ten years ago about how

3634
03:10:28,560 --> 03:10:31,560
Speaker 14: CIS and trans is kind of a useful Those are

3635
03:10:31,640 --> 03:10:34,959
Speaker 14: useful terms, but sometimes people fall in between CIS and

3636
03:10:35,000 --> 03:10:38,920
Speaker 14: trans and sometimes they can be used in a way

3637
03:10:39,320 --> 03:10:41,840
Speaker 14: to talk about different double standards, like CIS people are

3638
03:10:41,879 --> 03:10:43,840
Speaker 14: treated one way, trans people are treated another.

3639
03:10:44,560 --> 03:10:46,200
Speaker 13: But sometimes it can be used in like a sort

3640
03:10:46,240 --> 03:10:47,039
Speaker 13: of reverse.

3641
03:10:46,760 --> 03:10:50,440
Speaker 14: Discourse way, where it's like, you know, CIS people of

3642
03:10:50,480 --> 03:10:53,200
Speaker 14: all the privileged, trans people of none of the privilege,

3643
03:10:53,520 --> 03:10:54,960
Speaker 14: and it can be used to kind of create this

3644
03:10:55,040 --> 03:11:01,119
Speaker 14: strict dichotomy that ends up excluding and invisibilizing some people's experiences.

3645
03:11:01,800 --> 03:11:03,960
Speaker 14: And I feel the same thing is happening with TMME

3646
03:11:04,080 --> 03:11:07,680
Speaker 14: and TMA. So I don't think that those terms need

3647
03:11:07,720 --> 03:11:10,560
Speaker 14: to necessarily be like, I don't think there's anything bad

3648
03:11:10,560 --> 03:11:14,440
Speaker 14: about those terms per se in and of themselves, but

3649
03:11:14,520 --> 03:11:18,800
Speaker 14: I think sometimes they can be used in ways. And

3650
03:11:19,200 --> 03:11:22,160
Speaker 14: part of why I reference this this SIS and trans

3651
03:11:22,320 --> 03:11:25,640
Speaker 14: essay that I wrote many years ago. It appears in

3652
03:11:25,640 --> 03:11:28,680
Speaker 14: my book Outspoken. I forget the complete title right now,

3653
03:11:28,879 --> 03:11:32,640
Speaker 14: which is but the reason why I bring that up

3654
03:11:32,720 --> 03:11:37,600
Speaker 14: is so sometimes what happens is that when people learn

3655
03:11:37,600 --> 03:11:42,000
Speaker 14: about SIS sexism, CIS people might be like, oh, I

3656
03:11:42,080 --> 03:11:44,880
Speaker 14: face the sexism, right If I'm a woman and I

3657
03:11:44,920 --> 03:11:48,120
Speaker 14: don't shave my legs, I'm facing sexism, And so then

3658
03:11:48,160 --> 03:11:50,760
Speaker 14: trans people say yeah, but it kind of plays out

3659
03:11:50,760 --> 03:11:54,640
Speaker 14: differently for us, and so sometimes in order to stop

3660
03:11:54,680 --> 03:11:57,840
Speaker 14: people from kind of making those claims, which I think

3661
03:11:57,879 --> 03:12:01,400
Speaker 14: it is true that you know, a woman not shaving

3662
03:12:01,400 --> 03:12:03,560
Speaker 14: their legs, or if a man decides to put on

3663
03:12:03,560 --> 03:12:06,520
Speaker 14: a dress one day, regardless of whether they're sis or trans,

3664
03:12:06,640 --> 03:12:11,600
Speaker 14: they could experience sis sexism or transphobia. But it plays

3665
03:12:11,600 --> 03:12:14,280
Speaker 14: out differently for people who are actually members of that

3666
03:12:14,320 --> 03:12:17,120
Speaker 14: marginalized group. And then so then the marginalized group makes

3667
03:12:17,120 --> 03:12:20,240
Speaker 14: a distinction even sharper, and it just kind of becomes

3668
03:12:20,280 --> 03:12:27,000
Speaker 14: this escalating situation where the language and kind of battles

3669
03:12:27,000 --> 03:12:30,280
Speaker 14: over it become even more intense. In a recent piece,

3670
03:12:30,879 --> 03:12:32,560
Speaker 14: one of the most recent pieces, if you go to

3671
03:12:32,720 --> 03:12:35,960
Speaker 14: like my medium site where my essays usually are now

3672
03:12:36,520 --> 03:12:41,560
Speaker 14: is it talks about the trans mass versus trans discourse

3673
03:12:41,920 --> 03:12:44,959
Speaker 14: in terms of what I call the cultural feminist doom loop,

3674
03:12:45,520 --> 03:12:48,800
Speaker 14: where and the doom loop refers to kind of these

3675
03:12:48,840 --> 03:12:53,960
Speaker 14: ideas where everyone like both sides are trying to talk

3676
03:12:54,000 --> 03:12:57,360
Speaker 14: about the reason why their experiences are legitimate, and then

3677
03:12:57,400 --> 03:12:59,960
Speaker 14: that seems as though the other sides are not legit,

3678
03:13:00,600 --> 03:13:03,240
Speaker 14: and then that kind of cascades in a way that

3679
03:13:03,920 --> 03:13:07,320
Speaker 14: ends up not being very productive, but takes up a

3680
03:13:07,360 --> 03:13:10,199
Speaker 14: lot of energy on.

3681
03:13:10,680 --> 03:13:11,720
Speaker 13: Places like Twitter.

3682
03:13:13,120 --> 03:13:15,200
Speaker 11: Yeah, and I think I think that's something We've still

3683
03:13:15,280 --> 03:13:21,720
Speaker 11: seen about one trillion times variety of toxic ways. But

3684
03:13:21,760 --> 03:13:24,080
Speaker 11: what isn't toxic is the new third edition of Whipping

3685
03:13:24,080 --> 03:13:26,200
Speaker 11: Girl coming out in March with You can ask your

3686
03:13:26,240 --> 03:13:29,880
Speaker 11: local bookstore or pre order now and Yeah join us

3687
03:13:29,879 --> 03:13:33,720
Speaker 11: tomorrow for our discussion with Doctor Serrano of the Anatomy

3688
03:13:33,760 --> 03:13:35,880
Speaker 11: of Moral Panics. This is when it Could Happen Here.

3689
03:13:36,520 --> 03:13:37,760
Speaker 11: Trans people are great.

3690
03:13:40,840 --> 03:13:44,040
Speaker 1: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3691
03:13:44,080 --> 03:13:46,000
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3692
03:13:46,400 --> 03:13:48,920
Speaker 8: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3693
03:13:49,080 --> 03:13:52,160
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3694
03:13:52,240 --> 03:13:55,800
Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3695
03:13:55,879 --> 03:13:58,920
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3696
03:13:59,280 --> 03:14:01,440
Speaker 8: Can now find sources for it Could Happen Here listed

3697
03:14:01,440 --> 03:14:02,960
Speaker 8: directly in episode descriptions.

3698
03:14:03,320 --> 03:14:04,119
Speaker 10: Thanks for listening.