Speaker 1: My name is Paul Lieberstein, and I am a writer
Speaker 1: and director and producer on the Office, and I played Toby.
Speaker 1: I've forgotten. I constantly forget that I've played Toby. Hello
Speaker 1: and welcome, Thank you all for being here. This is
Speaker 1: the Office Deep Dive, and I am your host, Brian Baumgartner.
Speaker 1: Today we have the quadruple maybe quintuple threat, Paul Lieberstein. Now,
Speaker 1: despite the fact that he almost forgot about it, Paul
Speaker 1: is probably most famous for playing dunder Mifflin's h R. Rep.
Speaker 1: Toby Flenderson. Toby was a fantastic character, the character that
Speaker 1: everybody love to hate. Well maybe they just hated. Toby
Speaker 1: was the character that everyone just hated. But let me
Speaker 1: be very clear, Toby was hated Paul. Nobody hated Paul.
Speaker 1: He was one of our original writers. He was a director,
Speaker 1: a producer, and he was our boss. He was the
Speaker 1: show runner on the show from seasons five all the
Speaker 1: way through season eight, which well, that means I had
Speaker 1: a lot to talk to Paul about. And Paul blew
Speaker 1: my mind with so many things I had never heard before,
Speaker 1: multiple times during this conversation. So I am very excited
Speaker 1: for you all to hear it, so without further ado,
Speaker 1: the most soft spoken man in television, Paul Lieberstein, Bubble
Speaker 1: and Squeak, I love it, Bubble and Squeak, Bubble and Squeaker,
Speaker 1: Cookie every moon lift o from the nut people. Oh
Speaker 1: there he is great. You've been doing a bunch. I've
Speaker 1: been doing a bunch. Yes, there's no way too much
Speaker 1: about the office, I way too much. And this is
Speaker 1: all off the record, correct, all of it. We're not
Speaker 1: going to record record and we're not We're literally not
Speaker 1: recording any of it. Wow, Hi, Paul, are we rolling? Um?
Speaker 1: I mean you know, we're just we're literally we're just
Speaker 1: having a conversation. Oh you know what I'm saying. Again,
Speaker 1: it's all off the record, nothing's recorded. Um, how are you?
Speaker 1: How's it work? Line? So all right? Yeah it looks yeah.
Speaker 1: Things are good. Yeah. Family, family is kid, family is good.
Speaker 1: Work is sort of so so, but family is good. Yeah. No, No,
Speaker 1: that's probably accurate. Family is great. I got a lot
Speaker 1: of joy from family and not as much from not
Speaker 1: as much from Okay when I hear you, alright, so
Speaker 1: rewind back in your mind like fifteen years. Okay, we're
Speaker 1: going back like two thousand four. What were you doing
Speaker 1: in your work not with your family? I don't know
Speaker 1: what I was doing. I mean, hell, then there was
Speaker 1: the True Care Show, and then Bernie Mac Show, and
Speaker 1: then Greg the Bunny. I think Greg the Bunny was
Speaker 1: the last show that I had done. You were writing
Speaker 1: on Greg's Bunny? And then were you unemployed at that point?
Speaker 1: I think I was free? You were free? Yeah? Were
Speaker 1: you aware? I never really think about it as unemployed,
Speaker 1: just free because like our jobs come and go, right,
Speaker 1: So if you think about it is unemployed, you can
Speaker 1: hit some very big loads in their trust's just they
Speaker 1: come and go. Yeah, so you were free. I was free. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Were you aware of the British version of it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you are very aware. I loved it. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: aware way before Greg was going to adapt it. I
Speaker 1: mean it would really hit the sweet spot of what
Speaker 1: I loved about writing UM and what I loved about
Speaker 1: t P. What do you love about writing UM? I
Speaker 1: do like trying to catch real comedy as it seems
Speaker 1: to exist in the world for me, and I like,
Speaker 1: you know, situations, and it's much less people cracking jokes,
Speaker 1: and I think there's a lot of room for people
Speaker 1: cracking jokes, comedy, you know, and I enjoy it sometimes,
Speaker 1: but it's not what I'm interested in writing, right, Um,
Speaker 1: that was really unprofessional. I didn't silence my thing, damn it. Um.
Speaker 1: So you know, we hear noises, we hear noises that
Speaker 1: deal and planes that fly over it's going to stop
Speaker 1: their car? Like, what the hell was that? Um? What
Speaker 1: was your relationship with Greg prior to you coming to
Speaker 1: work on the Office? Um? Very strong released it was
Speaker 1: he's my brother in law, right, So you've known each
Speaker 1: other for a while for a very long time. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you had worked together on King of the Hill,
Speaker 1: so you were a big fan of the Office. You
Speaker 1: knew it before he came on to adapt it. Were
Speaker 1: you excited about that? Thrilled? And I was thrilled when
Speaker 1: he asked me to be part of it. And I
Speaker 1: was quite nervous taking it on. But I couldn't imagine
Speaker 1: not taking it onto because then what am I gonna do?
Speaker 1: Just work on something that was good? Why were you nervous? Well?
Speaker 1: Because I loved the British. It was done at a
Speaker 1: very high level and you know, um, you know, most
Speaker 1: adaptations don't work. But because of your relationship with Greg.
Speaker 1: You didn't know that you would be working on the show,
Speaker 1: but you showed up for some of the filming of
Speaker 1: the pilot. Yeah, just to hang out and see how
Speaker 1: it was going, and just this kind of a viewer.
Speaker 1: Did you give notes? I think I suggested a few jokes,
Speaker 1: but you know, notes seems to be a word used
Speaker 1: when when someone has like an official role. Right, Oh shit, Okay,
Speaker 1: what are your notes? You're not interested in someone's notes.
Speaker 1: If they have some ideas, I'd love to hear their ideas, right, Um,
Speaker 1: So when did you find out that you would be
Speaker 1: joining the writing staff. I guess after the pilot was
Speaker 1: picked up. We started putting it together and called. They
Speaker 1: also didn't have a lot of money because you know,
Speaker 1: NBC wasn't releasing a lot of money, so he had
Speaker 1: a real scout and staff. And I think I was
Speaker 1: officially three days a week, although are did doing five
Speaker 1: days just because it was fun and there was lots
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah. I would not like coming in and
Speaker 1: something happened without me. It's like, wait a second, No,
Speaker 1: we just agreed on this, so that was better to
Speaker 1: be part of the whole thing. What specific challenges did
Speaker 1: you feel or did you feel like the writer's room
Speaker 1: felt adapting the show that you know, critically and at
Speaker 1: least with a core group of people with such a
Speaker 1: huge colt amazing show. I mean, obviously we were really challenged.
Speaker 1: Everyone there loves the British show. I think we just
Speaker 1: we didn't want to just copy it, nor did we
Speaker 1: want to abandon it. But I remember Greg saying early
Speaker 1: on that he kind of like took apart that show
Speaker 1: like a watch and put it back together, and he
Speaker 1: knows exactly how it works, and so I think we
Speaker 1: just grabbed the principles of how it worked without grabbing
Speaker 1: anything else. I mean, there was definitely a mirror, like
Speaker 1: a fuzzy mirror on the English show where you could
Speaker 1: point to a lot of things and be like, okay,
Speaker 1: you know American version. That's so, that's the American version
Speaker 1: of that English nag. But it really wasn't. I mean,
Speaker 1: Jim and Tim were incredibly different, as we're done in
Speaker 1: Pam and and you can't even begin to compare Ricky
Speaker 1: and Steve. You know, do you remember feeling a pressure
Speaker 1: to make it our own or americanize it? No, No,
Speaker 1: it's felt the pressure to like live up to the
Speaker 1: quality of their show, right, um, and the potential embarrassment
Speaker 1: that we faced. Yeah, when did you learn that you
Speaker 1: were also going to be an actor on the show.
Speaker 1: So we we had a while before we started production.
Speaker 1: We were writing and writing, and nothing about it came up.
Speaker 1: It never crossed our mind. But I think we had
Speaker 1: the need for someone to come in and do one line.
Speaker 1: And Greg had this idea that he wanted to kind
Speaker 1: of break down the wall between the writers and actors,
Speaker 1: which is like very like strong, sacred wall, this big tradition,
Speaker 1: and he thought, let's give it a try. Let's break
Speaker 1: this down and you know, have some writers see what
Speaker 1: it's like to be on set and have more communication
Speaker 1: between the writers and the actors. And so I got
Speaker 1: the one line. But we were up all night writing
Speaker 1: and and it was like four in the morning, but
Speaker 1: we finally went home and then I kind of stumbled
Speaker 1: onto the set the next day. I had one line.
Speaker 1: I didn't really know it very well, and I didn't
Speaker 1: know Steve was going to improvise at all. And I
Speaker 1: was so tired when we did it that I think
Speaker 1: that would like infused the performance quite a bit. And Steve,
Speaker 1: you know, He wasn't the giant yet you know he was.
Speaker 1: He was kind of another actor on set, so I mean,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine what it had been like coming in
Speaker 1: season four and having to act for them, right, I
Speaker 1: would have been really scary. But we got to know
Speaker 1: him as we went, so it wasn't so bad. And
Speaker 1: you know, we had such a forgiving as you know,
Speaker 1: filming style, you kind of couldn't make a mistake unless
Speaker 1: you broke, which happened. Which happened, But I didn't break much.
Speaker 1: You didn't. I would just kind of stop and wait
Speaker 1: for someone else to talk, which always happened. Someone would
Speaker 1: jump in. I feel like I remember a big break
Speaker 1: from you when Rain got really close to your face
Speaker 1: and asked you where the Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely broke. Yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: There was a moment in uh season one. I was
Speaker 1: barely acting, you know, I was just figuring it all out,
Speaker 1: and we were doing a scene together and they kept
Speaker 1: trying to make me be louder and and I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know why I would be louder because the
Speaker 1: person I'm talking to is right here. Why would I
Speaker 1: be louder? And you said to me, we're sitting next
Speaker 1: to the refrigerator which is off. Imagine that it's got
Speaker 1: a really loud hum and you have to talk a
Speaker 1: little louder like, Oh, okay, that was the beginning of acting.
Speaker 1: So I taught you everything you know? Yeah, well you
Speaker 1: tell me one thing that I know? Yes, yes, Wow,
Speaker 1: it could have given me a little more credit there. No,
Speaker 1: I learned from everybody on set. Oh that's amazing. You
Speaker 1: said it's not traditional and there's this huge wall typically
Speaker 1: between the writing staff and the actors. How do you
Speaker 1: think that that difference and our show changed the dynamic
Speaker 1: it would have been. I don't think I actually would
Speaker 1: have come out that way if there if there was
Speaker 1: a strict wall. We were all on the same page
Speaker 1: with the show writers and actors, and we became so
Speaker 1: close with each character an actor and liked them and
Speaker 1: liked writing for them. And that often doesn't happen when
Speaker 1: they're so separate. The writers have one idea what the
Speaker 1: show is that they want to create, and the actors
Speaker 1: have a different, and so they're fighting each other on set,
Speaker 1: just create without ever talking. They're fighting each other, right,
Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, it was such a it was
Speaker 1: such a good I need to do often that wall
Speaker 1: is there because of the producers and the director. Now,
Speaker 1: the director typically you know, you're not supposed to have
Speaker 1: any just you're supposed to be the only person talking
Speaker 1: to you about your performance, right, And I get that,
Speaker 1: But at the same time, if you have, you know,
Speaker 1: the show goes for a little while. Actors know their
Speaker 1: roles better than the director, the writers know the characters
Speaker 1: better than the director, the DP knows the show better
Speaker 1: than the director, and the directors coming in knowing the
Speaker 1: least about the show of anybody. And we're all supposed
Speaker 1: to like not make the show better and just wait
Speaker 1: for the director to catch her. It's just it doesn't
Speaker 1: really work completely right. It's the it's the thing about TV.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a great rule for a great rule
Speaker 1: for a movie. And I mean, you know you can
Speaker 1: see like as a director too. And we all became directors.
Speaker 1: You know that building someone's performance, you want to tell
Speaker 1: them just a couple of things, you can slowly try
Speaker 1: to push them in a direction, and you know, it
Speaker 1: matters how you say things. And I think we all
Speaker 1: generally respected that right boundary while we were building a scene.
Speaker 1: But we all talked about the scenes beforehand and afterwards
Speaker 1: what is going to come up the stories? And when
Speaker 1: things weren't working, we just stopped and we just talked
Speaker 1: to each other. Yeah, I've taken that with me into
Speaker 1: the future. Like I always will show respect to a director,
Speaker 1: but I will walk over to video village and have
Speaker 1: a conversation with the writer or the creators on set
Speaker 1: just about the character or or what we're going for.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm able to have a conversation with
Speaker 1: them and get to the core of actually what it
Speaker 1: is they're Yeah, yeah, which is that a director is
Speaker 1: just more skilled at having that conversation. Yeah, Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: really I'm really big it with intention. Now I'm working
Speaker 1: on The Space Force with Greg now, so we were
Speaker 1: doing scenes with Steve and I tell him to say
Speaker 1: whatever he wants and just tell him the intention, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, he's gonna say whatever he wants anyway. But right, Um,
Speaker 1: did you feel like you have because of your relationship
Speaker 1: with Greg did you feel like you had a greater
Speaker 1: accountability to him when you started working Like, did you
Speaker 1: feel big time? I think you know, there's always this
Speaker 1: this I when two people are working together and related,
Speaker 1: there there's there's this sense of nepotism, you know, and
Speaker 1: I felt like I had more to prove, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to, for both of our sakes, defend against that
Speaker 1: by just doing more and being better, you know, right, Um,
Speaker 1: I just want to talk a little bit about the
Speaker 1: form of the show. We began over time to find
Speaker 1: elements that we felt like worked that was going to create,
Speaker 1: you know, the best half hour of television, meaning in
Speaker 1: diversity day for example, like setting that episode in one day,
Speaker 1: having you know, having all episodes were one day. Those
Speaker 1: are most yes as a rule. As a rule, yeah,
Speaker 1: and which I as, I think that's something we broke
Speaker 1: a handful of times in two And why was that important?
Speaker 1: When we were talking about the concept of the show.
Speaker 1: A documentary crew had come there that day for some reason,
Speaker 1: and everything we shot was contained in like their intention
Speaker 1: and the I know, at least the first few times
Speaker 1: we broke that rule, it was because a story lingered
Speaker 1: to the next day, so they followed it. But it
Speaker 1: was our feeling that they weren't there every day catching everything,
Speaker 1: whereas I think towards the end of the show we
Speaker 1: we said, no, maybe they just are there every day.
Speaker 1: I have never heard this before I swear to god,
Speaker 1: I've never heard this before. Yeah, why why did they come?
Speaker 1: Because they came because they knew, Um, this person was
Speaker 1: coming to talk to Michael about you know problem they received,
Speaker 1: you know, the Larry movement, diversity or but there there
Speaker 1: was always that hook, right, Were they there even if
Speaker 1: it was never stated or so like, oh today it's
Speaker 1: the Christmas party? Yeah, exactly. You can imagine some days
Speaker 1: where nothing happened and they just didn't come. That is
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's so awesome. Do we have that there?
Speaker 1: I loved that so much that do we have that?
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't we have it? Are you just recording it's
Speaker 1: this sometimes? Are they just when you feel like something
Speaker 1: interesting happening? I'm making sure that it's clear from you.
Speaker 1: Um okay, So what did the cold opens give us then? Um?
Speaker 1: What did that allow us to do? Aside from that
Speaker 1: sort of core structure as we as we began to
Speaker 1: do those, I guess that it allowed us to take
Speaker 1: on something of a much smaller scope, a pure thing
Speaker 1: like you're bringing in Chile. It was not going to
Speaker 1: be an episode, right, It was a small thing, simple thing.
Speaker 1: One of the office workers brings in some food, and
Speaker 1: here's our little he fills it and there it is right,
Speaker 1: I mean side note by the way, it is by
Speaker 1: far the thing that people talk to me about the most. Oh,
Speaker 1: there is no question. How do you feel about that? Um?
Speaker 1: I thought it was a beautiful moment. I never thought
Speaker 1: it would be this. It was a humongous departure from
Speaker 1: almost anything that was ever done on the show. It
Speaker 1: was kind of controversial at the time. They were some
Speaker 1: people who didn't want to do it. Well, it's only
Speaker 1: one character for an extended monologue, largely played in voiceover. Yes,
Speaker 1: that ends in that. And they had shower. I showered
Speaker 1: and showered and scrubbed and just like throwing out dirty
Speaker 1: owls out of the shower to the wardrobe people. We
Speaker 1: filmed it, obviously at the end of the day, and
Speaker 1: Oscar and Angela and I had a dinner that night
Speaker 1: at Mastros. We would do this occasionally, we would go
Speaker 1: out and have a nice dinner and just talk and
Speaker 1: be human beings instead of accountants. And I walked in
Speaker 1: and all I could do was smell chili all over
Speaker 1: my hands. Just it just it was just in my skin. Um,
Speaker 1: all right, enough about me, So you think about the
Speaker 1: office as this place of ordinary stasis. But to me,
Speaker 1: what Greg and you did throughout the show was constantly
Speaker 1: change something which I think created a kinetic energy that
Speaker 1: kept spinning through. Was that something that you were thinking
Speaker 1: about at the time, like trying to keep stirring that pot? Yeah? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean I always thought putting Steve in with new
Speaker 1: blood and a new energy was like worth six episodes
Speaker 1: of just great comedy. Just every new person that you
Speaker 1: put next to him, So like Idris Elba, Charles Minor So, yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: you know, who's clearly not a comedy guy, hasn't done
Speaker 1: comedy before or since. But that energy next to Steve
Speaker 1: was amazing, you know, and he just it's what happens
Speaker 1: to him, you know, and he becomes a different parce
Speaker 1: Cathy Bates next to Steve, Holly Amy Ryan Um. How
Speaker 1: do you feel like, in addition into those things, kind
Speaker 1: of leaning into more of the supporting cast flashing out
Speaker 1: those stories. How did that help keep the dynamic? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was the key. I think. You know, this idea
Speaker 1: that there's five characters on the show, was this age
Speaker 1: old idea. You know, sitcoms have been following that pattern
Speaker 1: for like as long as I've been watching them sixty years,
Speaker 1: you know, Um, but there's no reason for it. And
Speaker 1: I'd say in the beginning, you know, it was five
Speaker 1: plus side characters, but that didn't last long. Everyone was
Speaker 1: a character and pretty equal. Um. And then taking turns
Speaker 1: and like saying okay, and again, a lot of it was,
Speaker 1: you know, because Steve was the comedy Michael was the
Speaker 1: comedy driver. So picking the two, picking two characters to
Speaker 1: then create an episode around saying, Okay, this is gonna
Speaker 1: be Michael Kevin or a Michael Stanley you know what
Speaker 1: did I study? Or we could just move that around
Speaker 1: and kind of take turns and we would get a
Speaker 1: completely different, new, fresh dynamic going right. How do you
Speaker 1: feel like the different relationships we move into, kind of
Speaker 1: the love relationships. How do you feel like that made
Speaker 1: the show different than just a comedy because Jim and
Speaker 1: Pam was almost always played straight. Huh yeah, well it
Speaker 1: was charged you now, So I guess it always felt
Speaker 1: straight because that's what you were paying attention to. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: something like a relationship. There's just more at stake, and
Speaker 1: that's very relatable. So I think people are I think
Speaker 1: they could be having a comic conversation and you don't
Speaker 1: even hear it sometimes, right, interesting. I mean they had
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, they had no shortage of
Speaker 1: like pranks on Dwight, and that was a dynamic taken
Speaker 1: from the British at these two are going to connect
Speaker 1: with each other over pranking Twight and I think there
Speaker 1: was a ton of comedy and us. But what you
Speaker 1: saw you didn't register his comedy, because what you really
Speaker 1: registerious love story. Right, There's another relationship that I think
Speaker 1: was maybe my favorite in the show. Will you play
Speaker 1: that clip? Why are you the way that you are? Honestly,
Speaker 1: every time I try to do something fun or exciting,
Speaker 1: you make it not that way. I hate so much
Speaker 1: about the things that you choose to be. I mean
Speaker 1: that when was the idea for that born? It wasn't
Speaker 1: born in diversity. Steve wrote that speech. Yeah, he hated
Speaker 1: And when I was watching some of those things last night,
Speaker 1: I mean, his face anytime he is looking at you
Speaker 1: and angry at you in a way is completely trans
Speaker 1: It almost looks like a different person, and he's his
Speaker 1: energy and at one point he's like, I hate your
Speaker 1: lemon head or it's just crazy, it's like I'm a
Speaker 1: Nazi and he thinks he's doing a service to the
Speaker 1: world by hating me. Well that, well, that's the other
Speaker 1: famous one, right, Like if I had two bullets and
Speaker 1: there was Hitler, Ben Laden and Toby, I would use
Speaker 1: both bullets and kill Toby. I think it happened in
Speaker 1: Meredith's birthday and we all had to sign that card.
Speaker 1: So I just had to go in and said, oh,
Speaker 1: can I have a card and sign something really quickly
Speaker 1: and leave, and he would just watch me do it
Speaker 1: the all time, take after takeing he was just standing
Speaker 1: there watching and he told me afterwards said he felt
Speaker 1: like the hate for me just just well up inside
Speaker 1: him during these takes. So it was so from that moment.
Speaker 1: Is that why you guys decided to write that story
Speaker 1: in or to continue that. You know, a lot of
Speaker 1: it he would come from Steve. I think the power
Speaker 1: of it came from Steve, you know, and he would
Speaker 1: always do more. Heven, starting with Diversity Day, who was
Speaker 1: just supposed to say he would, you know, get out
Speaker 1: or something like that, but he did more. He relished
Speaker 1: the moment and played with it, and I think he
Speaker 1: continues to do that, and really, you know, when we
Speaker 1: had these thirty six minute cuts and had to decide
Speaker 1: what would stay. When Steve loved something, he the performance
Speaker 1: would be amazing. And I think that's what helped so
Speaker 1: much of the Toby Michael stuff stay right, just his
Speaker 1: pure power and just the pure power of his like, yeah,
Speaker 1: being being there, corral genius. Right. Um, what was what's
Speaker 1: the episode that you were most proud of writing? That's
Speaker 1: a good question. Money was the first hour one that
Speaker 1: I did and I directed it as well, and Greg
Speaker 1: gave me total freedom. I ran the rewrite and everything.
Speaker 1: I think that was the one where I like totally
Speaker 1: had control every line of it, and I love doing that.
Speaker 1: I'm really I don't know, I'm really proud of. I
Speaker 1: got nominated for Directors guild Ward for or an Emmy
Speaker 1: for directing that one. That one was a really big
Speaker 1: deal of me because just where in my career it
Speaker 1: fell right. What was different about your episodes? Was there
Speaker 1: a particular strength or interest that you had? Um? I
Speaker 1: liked setting up very simple situations where people were in
Speaker 1: basic conflict and really just letting things play with very
Speaker 1: like natural dialogue that I don't know, I think I
Speaker 1: think that's probably a part of a lot of my episodes.
Speaker 1: If I go back right in the writer's room, would you, um,
Speaker 1: would you each have assignments based on what your strengths
Speaker 1: are or that was irrelevant? Yeah, I mean I don't
Speaker 1: know that. We would work on a story for a
Speaker 1: while before it had a writer, and I guess in
Speaker 1: the signing of a writer there was thought, too, who's
Speaker 1: going to do this? Well, okay, well, because you ran
Speaker 1: the show for a while. We're talking about more about
Speaker 1: that a minute, So you were assigning the writers to
Speaker 1: the particular right, So would you say, oh, this is
Speaker 1: a b J episode and so b J you'd write
Speaker 1: this or I'd never say it. No, we're not out loud,
Speaker 1: But is that what you would think? Yeah, definitely. V
Speaker 1: J was, Um, it's like one of the strongest joke
Speaker 1: writers I've ever worked with. I mean, he does a
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of strength. Everyone had a lot
Speaker 1: of overall strengths, but his his sense of the joke
Speaker 1: was extremely sharp, and certain episodes, you know, kind of
Speaker 1: require that. Right. What about Mindy? You know Mindy, I
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't have given her like an episode that had
Speaker 1: like it was based on lots of twists and turns
Speaker 1: and big plot things because she that was not her
Speaker 1: interest and people would excel when they're following their interests,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean she obviously she loved the romantic comedy,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't just that she loved She wrote the Dundee's, right,
Speaker 1: she wrote the Dundee's she wrote. I mean, she I
Speaker 1: don't know where to begin. She was a ton of them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, when I think about Mindy wrote the Christmas
Speaker 1: episode where you're sitting on Michael's lab, and I think
Speaker 1: that goes to the kind of the heart of some
Speaker 1: of the things that she did so amazingly, which was like,
Speaker 1: just find something that's funny and really play it out.
Speaker 1: And Greg loved that too, and that's one of the
Speaker 1: reasons today were such a great team. Um. So, the
Speaker 1: writer strike happens season four. Um do you remember anyways
Speaker 1: specifically that the office was tied to that strike, and
Speaker 1: you know, we were really having a moment in season four.
Speaker 1: We were very well respected. There was a lot to lose,
Speaker 1: and as it happened, the fact that Greg went out
Speaker 1: with the writers and struck set a tone for all
Speaker 1: the showrunners, you know, And it was because of them
Speaker 1: and we could read it online and see what they
Speaker 1: were saying. The fact that he kind of lad the
Speaker 1: charge for shore runners to stick by the writers and
Speaker 1: shut down the shows because technically he could have worked. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know that it's I mean, it was such
Speaker 1: a weird, murky area, right. Um. You could make an
Speaker 1: argument that he would have been on solid ground to
Speaker 1: continue to produce the shows. And you could also make
Speaker 1: an argument that you know, he had he had responsibility
Speaker 1: too as a writer to to stop writing, because both
Speaker 1: were possible. He had a choice to make, you know,
Speaker 1: and a lot of show runners were very concerned about
Speaker 1: their shows and they do the best. They had to
Speaker 1: stockpile scripts, and I think, you know, the fact that
Speaker 1: Greg was striking was a big part of Steve not
Speaker 1: crossing the picket line, and that was what brought the
Speaker 1: the office to stop. My bigest lesson from the strike was,
Speaker 1: you know, I had taken notes from a lot of
Speaker 1: directors as I was studying to be one. So we
Speaker 1: were in the middle of dinner party we were about
Speaker 1: to shoot it, and one director scattered it. It was
Speaker 1: as as if like things were being presented to him
Speaker 1: and he was figuring out how he was going to
Speaker 1: shoot it, and and then we came back that event
Speaker 1: that director was not available and Paul Fi. We got
Speaker 1: Paul Fi to direct Dinner Party, and he came in
Speaker 1: and did the exact same scatter out, but bent that place.
Speaker 1: He came in with a vision and bent the place
Speaker 1: to suit it. He was like, paint these walls and too,
Speaker 1: you know. And it was then that I learned what
Speaker 1: a scout was, how how I needed to approach a
Speaker 1: scout as a director. I should fully imagine this space
Speaker 1: working for me in every possible way I can and
Speaker 1: say it. And I need to imagine it now in
Speaker 1: the scout because three hours from now it's too late.
Speaker 1: I didn't tell the people what to do. Amazing. Um,
Speaker 1: how did you feel about when Greg decided to leave
Speaker 1: and go develop parks and recreation? I know he was
Speaker 1: never gone gone, but how did you feel? And when
Speaker 1: did you find out that you and Jen we're going
Speaker 1: to take the show over. Yeah? He and I just
Speaker 1: kind of went on a walk on Satici and he
Speaker 1: told me h and asked me if I wanted to
Speaker 1: do jan I don't thought it was a big honor.
Speaker 1: Did you say yes right away? Yeah, definitely right. I
Speaker 1: thought it was pretty pretty amazing. Were you didn't scare you?
Speaker 1: Definitely sure? No, of course. Um, so what how did
Speaker 1: the writer's room change just pragmatically with with Greg and
Speaker 1: Mike both leaving? Um, Jen and I worked together so well,
Speaker 1: and we could we could kind of work together or
Speaker 1: take turns, kind of covering for each other, and it
Speaker 1: thinks got really late and we both liked each other's
Speaker 1: writing so much that it just made it easy. Right.
Speaker 1: I remember that it didn't feel to me as though
Speaker 1: much had changed, because it wasn't like he was gone
Speaker 1: gone right. It wasn't like goodbye Greg. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think he really wanted to be the face of that too,
Speaker 1: so he was. He would be on the cause of
Speaker 1: the network. He would be at all the table reads
Speaker 1: and the places where he would typically interact. He kept interacting.
Speaker 1: He was definitely worried how people would view it. But
Speaker 1: you know, at the same time, like Jen and I,
Speaker 1: I loved Gregg's writing and it wasn't like you know,
Speaker 1: and I've been on a lot of shows that you know,
Speaker 1: when someone goes there, there could be the sad Finally
Speaker 1: we get to do it all the way now, we're
Speaker 1: really going to pick up this show. You know people
Speaker 1: are gonna see the difference here. Um No, that wasn't
Speaker 1: it at all. We loved Greg's writing, We had loved
Speaker 1: what he did, and we just wanted to keep doing that,
Speaker 1: even though he gave me authority. I wanted him to
Speaker 1: like the show. You know, this was his show, and
Speaker 1: after a table, if he didn't like it, I would
Speaker 1: change it. I don't think I ever just said, well,
Speaker 1: I like it, so we're doing it right. We would
Speaker 1: always find the overlap of where we both like the show.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like you have a different sensibility? Are
Speaker 1: generally similar? We have a big overlap, but then we
Speaker 1: also have Harry's what we don't overlap? What? What would
Speaker 1: you say the biggest thing in the non overlap is
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's not super clear to me, but
Speaker 1: I know I used to definitely feel much more comfortable
Speaker 1: going a lot darker than he would. That's exactly what
Speaker 1: I was going to say, Yeah, I could go dark.
Speaker 1: So when did you find out that Steve was not
Speaker 1: going to come back. Did you feel confident that the
Speaker 1: show could continue or were you not sure? I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: I thought there was a lot of good reasons why
Speaker 1: we could keep going ing, and you know, we had
Speaker 1: done so much. I mean, he was seven seasons. I
Speaker 1: just thought there wasn't a lot left so the show
Speaker 1: could either find a new direction or it wouldn't work.
Speaker 1: And we talked so much about what kind of new
Speaker 1: directions it could be. But then ultimately I wanted to
Speaker 1: keep going because we had a great cast. And that's
Speaker 1: the decision not to bring in somebody else huge from
Speaker 1: the outside and try to do a big gorilla, which
Speaker 1: we had talked about two but we brought in James Spader,
Speaker 1: we did, but he was part time and it revolved
Speaker 1: and then we and then we did Katherine Tade for
Speaker 1: a while in that job. I think we were we
Speaker 1: were finding it. It was not easy in season eight
Speaker 1: to figure out what the glue of the show was, right,
Speaker 1: it had a strong core. Before it was there was
Speaker 1: a guy who wanted more from this group than the
Speaker 1: group could get, and almost everything came out of it right.
Speaker 1: I had a discussion I think it was with Jenna.
Speaker 1: I think it was her. If it wasn't her, we
Speaker 1: can change this. But I had a discussion with somebody
Speaker 1: who talked about one of their biggest disappointments or regrets
Speaker 1: in the show was that it wasn't there wasn't enough
Speaker 1: confidence given to the people that we had, feeling like
Speaker 1: that we had to bring somebody else in. I think
Speaker 1: what I said, which I can sympathize with the decision,
Speaker 1: was that at that point, nobody who was there felt
Speaker 1: like a boss. Yeah. And the other thing was we
Speaker 1: were getting a lot of pressure from the network. So
Speaker 1: the network, who had historically been behind us so much,
Speaker 1: just changed hands, just changed hands to Comcast just as
Speaker 1: Steve was leaving, and they wanted a big gorilla. They
Speaker 1: wanted a big star to come in and take it over,
Speaker 1: which we fought. How to say, like, they didn't even
Speaker 1: know all the characters names at that point, they weren't
Speaker 1: really following the show. I think we were just a
Speaker 1: disappointing line item at the time. And then all of
Speaker 1: TV was losing its ratings, all of TV, right, and
Speaker 1: we didn't know how much of a hit we would
Speaker 1: take with Steve going um, but we took a pretty
Speaker 1: big one, and they wanted those numbers up. But at
Speaker 1: the time, I mean, what we know now is that
Speaker 1: was happening everywhere and people were starting everywhere happened with
Speaker 1: if he had stayed right, Um, there was no way
Speaker 1: to know, but that was behind a lot of the
Speaker 1: pressure we were getting. I was kidding. Was there a
Speaker 1: specific name that Comcast was wanting to take over? Um,
Speaker 1: lots of names were floated, Julia, Louis Dreyfuss, James Candelfini,
Speaker 1: someone we actually met with to explore it. But again,
Speaker 1: that was going to be in the part time range
Speaker 1: because I really did not want to put a new
Speaker 1: person in the office in Michael's chair. I just thought like,
Speaker 1: we're never going to get that right, and we should
Speaker 1: just diffuse that thing and focus on everyone we had
Speaker 1: interested what I was doing. And you know, even when
Speaker 1: people came in, they weren't the focus. No, absolutely, I'm surprised.
Speaker 1: I'm surprised. Yeah, Jenna's kinda I can't remember who it was,
Speaker 1: but I'll tell you so you can get mad later.
Speaker 1: I'm not mad, just really, really really hurt, you know. Um.
Speaker 1: Any personal recollections from when Steve left, Oh yeah, it
Speaker 1: was so well, we were all so tight, you know.
Speaker 1: I remember like giving it like a little toast to
Speaker 1: him and getting choked up after his last scene. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was gonna miss him a lot and did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we all did as a person, as a person, yeah,
Speaker 1: and as the genius that he was. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: think it was you know, our experience of doing the
Speaker 1: show was the people and the talent was you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot to do with the product. He was
Speaker 1: a great guy who set a tone on you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know that the first person to say this,
Speaker 1: but he set this tone that it was really important
Speaker 1: to treat people well and everyone was important. But he
Speaker 1: was also just really fun to have her own. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think we all just were said to see him go. Yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: So how much were you aware of what Greg's vision
Speaker 1: for the entire series would be? Like it was I
Speaker 1: remember hearing early on, so I know you did that
Speaker 1: there was beginning, you know, the documentary crew comes, there
Speaker 1: was a middle, and that Greg had a specific idea
Speaker 1: for what the end would be. How early on were
Speaker 1: you aware of that very you know, those ideas were
Speaker 1: out really well, you know season once and two. You
Speaker 1: these ideas, especially season one, and then and be like okay,
Speaker 1: that's an idea for season eight, that's an idea for
Speaker 1: you know that in our last season, you know, and
Speaker 1: like breaking the fourth while on the documentary crew Um
Speaker 1: and including that that was an idea that was early
Speaker 1: Um that we just but we knew that was going
Speaker 1: to be at the end put Away. Yeah right, we
Speaker 1: knew it blew up the show, right, And was there
Speaker 1: ever any talk of not doing that but being like
Speaker 1: e Er or something where it would just keep going forever.
Speaker 1: Was there ever any real talk of that just keep
Speaker 1: show going forever? Yeah? Totally. Where did you fall on that?
Speaker 1: I feel it was not possible to make this transition
Speaker 1: idea to slowly bring people on and shift focus. Everyone
Speaker 1: would have to really be on the same page for
Speaker 1: to want that to happen, and not everybody wanted that
Speaker 1: to happen, and Greg really wanted to finish the story,
Speaker 1: and you can't finish the story with everybody gone, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, you would not have had a satisfying ending
Speaker 1: if after twenty if the show is still on now
Speaker 1: and after another five ten years, we go, okay, well
Speaker 1: now we're going to break the fourth wall. The the
Speaker 1: kind of survivor element where we just if we are
Speaker 1: just in season eighteen right now or whatever it would be,
Speaker 1: this show wouldn't be as regarded as well as it is,
Speaker 1: and Survivor would probably be regarded higher than it is
Speaker 1: if it had ended after ten. Right, was there any
Speaker 1: noticeable change in Gregg coming back full time for that
Speaker 1: last season and your roles changing again? Well, I spent
Speaker 1: that year mostly trying to get the spin off going,
Speaker 1: writing that, casting that going, focusing on that development. So
Speaker 1: I really wasn't a daily part of the writer's room
Speaker 1: season nine, season nine, Yeah, yeah, there was a part
Speaker 1: of me that was like that I had kind of
Speaker 1: finished in a way, but you were still writing, right,
Speaker 1: We're still acting in every episode and no, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: aside from writing the Farm, that's the only episode I
Speaker 1: wrote that year. Writing and directing the Farm I think
Speaker 1: was the only time I directed that year too. How
Speaker 1: disappointed were you that that that did not go forward?
Speaker 1: Very disappoint and I think it would have been a
Speaker 1: really big hit. Why did it not? Again, this is
Speaker 1: the shift over to the the new management Comcasts. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't see how someone could not give the Farm
Speaker 1: a chance, right, to not give the Dwight spin off
Speaker 1: like a chance like maybe what if it does find itself?
Speaker 1: You know? Interesting? So for you, it was really about
Speaker 1: Comcast comes in and buys and doesn't have the seven
Speaker 1: year history with the show is essentially coming in now
Speaker 1: as Steve is gone, Ratings are going down and you're
Speaker 1: finding yourself creatively, and so there hasn't been an investment
Speaker 1: or a buy in exactly. Yeah. So really we needed
Speaker 1: a Kevin Riley. Yeah, we needed a Kevin Riley to
Speaker 1: be there at the time, to be at Comcast, someone
Speaker 1: that saw what could happen. Yeah. Um, why do you
Speaker 1: think that the show has become now the most watch
Speaker 1: show in television five six years after we've shot anything?
Speaker 1: Is that true? The most Yeah, fifty two something billion
Speaker 1: minutes watched. That's a hundred thousand people watching it from
Speaker 1: the moment they're born until they die, living an average lifes. Wow.
Speaker 1: Are they doing that to some people? I think they should.
Speaker 1: It's mean. I mean they wouldn't have a diverse life,
Speaker 1: but potentially a happy life. Um. Do you feel that
Speaker 1: the show in your interactions with people, that it's it's
Speaker 1: bigger today than it was? Definitely? Definitely Yeah, and going younger. Yeah,
Speaker 1: why do you think that is? Why is it connecting
Speaker 1: with people maybe even more so now today? In a
Speaker 1: way it was built for stream me I don't know,
Speaker 1: there's the it's a very hard you know, there's a
Speaker 1: phenomenon out there. It's very hard to explain. But um
Speaker 1: streaming one you kind of pay attention, and a lot
Speaker 1: of shows you're not given any permission to pay attention
Speaker 1: because they're so forced down your throat. UM streaming is
Speaker 1: lightly serialized, like the best of streaming is lightly serialized.
Speaker 1: And we were, you know, with no knowledge of what
Speaker 1: streaming was. That that was just how we thought the
Speaker 1: show would be best. We told stories over years and
Speaker 1: we we really like the mini arcs. I don't know,
Speaker 1: as a viewer, if I'm watching something streaming and it's
Speaker 1: it's too I have to wait too long for a conclusion,
Speaker 1: I get really angry and I'm out. We found these
Speaker 1: six arcs and thirteen arcs, you know that we did
Speaker 1: a lot of three six you know, we had depending
Speaker 1: on what it was. But like Michael Scott Paper Company,
Speaker 1: you know, where he takes a journey over six episodes, right,
Speaker 1: which is perfect for streaming. It's very satisfying to watch
Speaker 1: six episodes in the beginning something, see the end of it,
Speaker 1: and then you know, by the end of it, we're
Speaker 1: back to We're back to where we were, even though
Speaker 1: we're playing a giant dark with Michael Scott, you know
Speaker 1: that takes seven years to go through about him becoming
Speaker 1: kind of a whole person. So I think I think
Speaker 1: we're built for this platform. We're built for today really well.
Speaker 1: So in the last line of the show, Pam says
Speaker 1: this line about there's beauty and ordinary things. It being
Speaker 1: Greg's episode, who wrote it, I have to assume that
Speaker 1: that's what he thought the show was about, that there
Speaker 1: is beauty in ordinary things. What did you think it
Speaker 1: was about? But yeah, I guess that I thought there was.
Speaker 1: I was probably a little more focused on there's there's
Speaker 1: comedy in ordan very things. I mean, and and I
Speaker 1: know he felt both, but um, you know, the the
Speaker 1: commedy that comes from very small, ordinary conflicts is my
Speaker 1: favorite stuff. And uh, you know, when we hit that,
Speaker 1: I think we were at our past. You know, right,
Speaker 1: what are you most proud of? I mean, you led
Speaker 1: almost half of the run. I'm most proud of what
Speaker 1: we were as an aggregate. You know, it wasn't a
Speaker 1: single moment that I'm more proud of than others. Although
Speaker 1: I'm very proud of a talking head in which you
Speaker 1: did not know the alphabet Lemno. Yeah, yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: I mean. That's what I mean. That little glint, that
Speaker 1: little glinting in your eye. I go, We'll here is
Speaker 1: something I haven't I haven't ever revealed this before ever,
Speaker 1: but I remember you saying to I mean, it was
Speaker 1: just one of those moments about like we were getting
Speaker 1: towards the end. We're up in your office and you
Speaker 1: said to me, we need you because Steve is leaving,
Speaker 1: only leaves us Dwight. We need someone to do the
Speaker 1: really really dumb things. So sorry, we need somebody to
Speaker 1: do the really really dumb things now that Michael was gone,
Speaker 1: as Dwight is there, we need someone to do the
Speaker 1: things that are bigger and or dumber than Dwight. No, okay,
Speaker 1: thanks boss. Yeah yeah, um, but you This is sort
Speaker 1: of a side note, but I'm most thankful for all
Speaker 1: of the relationships that I made, and I'm thankful to
Speaker 1: you that you trusted me and gave me an opportunity
Speaker 1: to direct. It was a no brainer for me. Really,
Speaker 1: I know you do an awesome job because I'm smarter
Speaker 1: than everybody else. Yeah, I played dumb, but actually smart
Speaker 1: know you you're a highly. You're highly trained actor, right,
Speaker 1: You're very skilled and trained, and you knew a lot
Speaker 1: about acting, and we were an actor's show, right, so
Speaker 1: I thought that was a no brainer. You know, I
Speaker 1: knew you would do it an amazing tob Well, thank you.
Speaker 1: I look forward to the phone call to come direct
Speaker 1: here your next show. Um, dude, I appreciate you so
Speaker 1: much coming in. It's so fun to talk about this.
Speaker 1: I was with Steve yesterday and some way we just
Speaker 1: started talking about Michael Scott for so long on the
Speaker 1: office days. It's fun to do. I didn't want it
Speaker 1: for a long time. It's like, come on, put this
Speaker 1: show to bed, um, But it feels good now I
Speaker 1: can talk about it. Yeah. Well, I think that you
Speaker 1: and I hope this doesn't sound weird. I feel like
Speaker 1: you're the unsung hero of the show that you don't
Speaker 1: get the credit that you deserve for your vision and
Speaker 1: innovation that happened during the time that you were there.
Speaker 1: So I want you to know that I appreciate you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: no one said that. I do think you're an idiot.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, it takes away some of the good feelings. Okay, Um,
Speaker 1: but thank you for coming in. Thanks for having me here.
Speaker 1: Oh good, there you have it. That is Paul Lieberstein.
Speaker 1: Thank you Paul for sitting down with me. You know
Speaker 1: how much I love you. And I don't know is
Speaker 1: it too late to start to petition to revamp the farm.
Speaker 1: I'll ask Rain if he's free. Uh. In any case,
Speaker 1: thank you all for listening. I absolutely love sharing these
Speaker 1: interviews with you, so I hope you're loving them. To
Speaker 1: have a great week, everybody. The office. Deep Dive is
Speaker 1: hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our
Speaker 1: executive producer, Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
Speaker 1: our producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is
Speaker 1: Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore.
Speaker 1: Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great
Speaker 1: friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth
Speaker 1: Olansky