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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, Welcome back Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Here is Dennis Raider, known as BTK bind Torture Kill,

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Speaker 1: a serial killer now responsible for two more murders. I say,

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Speaker 1: HG L Y E S. But we got to speak

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Speaker 1: even more and in more depth with the sheriff. The

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Speaker 1: sheriff who is credited with keeping this case alive and

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Speaker 1: finding answers.

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Speaker 2: Take a listen, sheriff, how do you go to sleep

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Speaker 2: at night with this dancing through your brain?

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Speaker 3: Well, let me tell you. My wife came in one

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Speaker 3: thirty and said, you've got to get to sleep. You're

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Speaker 3: going to kill yourself. Uh, but you know it's it's Nancy.

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Speaker 3: I'm telling you with your experience, if you've seen I mean,

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Speaker 3: we haven't even we haven't even touched the tip of

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Speaker 3: the iceberg. In what I've looked. I've been eight months

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Speaker 3: going through collecting, following up on and and the the information.

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Speaker 3: If you looked at it, you you would be absolutely

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Speaker 3: shocked and you you would know. I mean I I

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Speaker 3: had a meeting and put together a slide, and I

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Speaker 3: had the OSBI from Oklahoma, I had KBI from Kansas.

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Speaker 3: I had numerous sheriffs from Kansas. I had the US

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Speaker 3: Attorney's Office here, and I had the Oklahoma State Attorney

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Speaker 3: General's office here. We figured the presentation we put together

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Speaker 3: would last about two hours. We felt like it was

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Speaker 3: very compelling and would show everyone, you know, the need

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Speaker 3: for us to form some type of a task force

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Speaker 3: and really dedicate the time that needed to be done

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Speaker 3: on this case. That meeting ended up going the majority

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Speaker 3: of everyone stayed for at least eight hours, some up

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Speaker 3: to ten hours because of the significance of just the

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Speaker 3: tip of the iceberg. And if you look at the

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Speaker 3: things I mean, we went through his maps. James is

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Speaker 3: an incredible person with more dedication than I can say.

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Speaker 3: And again I'm dealing with day to day and I've

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Speaker 3: kept James focused on this and he's in there going

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Speaker 3: through stuff. He's he's made maps where and you know,

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Speaker 3: we we have no idea how much other law enforcement

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Speaker 3: has done because you know, we've only been accessing what

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Speaker 3: we can access when we can get it. And we

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Speaker 3: made a map of missing people or unsolved cases just

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Speaker 3: off of the map that Dennis provided and then as

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Speaker 3: we did as we did that, then we looked at

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Speaker 3: at you know what the victims were wearing their description

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Speaker 3: and compared them. He has got a ton of the

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Speaker 3: of drawings and notations and letters and poems and and

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Speaker 3: just unbelievable things. But going through that, we found you know,

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Speaker 3: not only cases that that that matched his map, but

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Speaker 3: but but other items that particularly show the description of

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Speaker 3: the victim down to colors of their shirts, matching hair color, hairstyles.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it is it's it's unbelievable and uh, you

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Speaker 3: know this thing is uh is really really amaze me

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Speaker 3: of and disappointed me. You know, I was hoping when

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Speaker 3: we find an ADT schedule and be able to really

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Speaker 3: in and out, but we got one letter that says

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Speaker 3: we don't have any records. H I mean, it goes

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Speaker 3: on and on and on, but but you know it's

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Speaker 3: just you know, like like there's an Oklahoma. I was

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Speaker 3: telling you that that he talked about his senses time

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Speaker 3: and and in his timeline it's the busiest time to

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Speaker 3: his life, which he told me in person. You know,

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Speaker 3: he couldn't be his self at home because he had

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Speaker 3: to be the the church deacon and the dad and

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Speaker 3: the husband and keep his his his his role as that.

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Speaker 3: But then when he was out on the road he

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Speaker 3: got to be BTK and have his hotel parties. He

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Speaker 3: described breaking and enterings, prowling, window peeping, all all all

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Speaker 3: over the Oklahoma Canus border.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean by hotel parties? What hotel parties?

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Speaker 3: Okay, So some of the pictures that he made, he

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Speaker 3: would again dress up, you know, in women's clothing, wigs, masks,

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Speaker 3: and bondage and take his own pictures inside those hotels,

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Speaker 3: like the one you showed where he was hanging in

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Speaker 3: the tree. Yes, okay, we have located the spot. We've

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Speaker 3: we've been with that sheriff's department. We've located a document

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Speaker 3: that he made describing that day, everything he took, what

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Speaker 3: he did when he created that, and that's a special

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Speaker 3: area of his and that's an area that will be searched,

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Speaker 3: you know, in the near future. Uh. One example, craziest

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Speaker 3: thing I ever heard. I I actually brought that up

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Speaker 3: to him, and you know what his response was, what

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Speaker 3: he actually said this. He said, he said, well, well,

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Speaker 3: if you find something there that that won't mean anything,

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Speaker 3: because every killer used that spot.

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Speaker 2: Unbelievable, unbelievable.

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Speaker 3: And me, me and me and one of the guys

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Speaker 3: that was with me after that conversation. You know, we're

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Speaker 3: going back and I mean, it's just unbelievables. Like you know,

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Speaker 3: we're we're picturing the john Wick Assassin Hotel.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: He said you would go to that, you trip over

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Speaker 3: other killers, you know where you were trying to get

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Speaker 3: your time in there. I mean, it's just insane. And

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Speaker 3: you know, at that location we haven't released it. But

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Speaker 3: in a silo we found a button to a blouse

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Speaker 3: and the middle part had been torn off, so a

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Speaker 3: shirt had been ripped open or torn which would cause

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Speaker 3: that to break off. And there's no reason that we

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Speaker 3: can think of for it to be in that location.

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Speaker 3: Why a female would be inside of a silo and

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Speaker 3: have something occurred in a grain silo that would cause

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Speaker 3: her button to be ripped off of her shirt. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, we've got so many things that that. But

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Speaker 3: you can imagine, nobody in law enforcement wants to touch BTK. Now,

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Speaker 3: you know, when I go in to talk to a sheriff,

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Speaker 3: they you know a lot of times run plumb backwards

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Speaker 3: because they don't want anything to do with that because

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Speaker 3: of the baggage that comes along with this type of investigation.

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Speaker 3: But my victim needs justice, and her family needs answers.

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Speaker 3: And I met with her parents years ago, and I

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Speaker 3: had done other things on this case, and I promise

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Speaker 3: them if I got anything, I would follow up to

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Speaker 3: the end of the earth to get those answers. I

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Speaker 3: don't want to work McDonald County things. I don't want

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Speaker 3: to work other things. I just want to find my girl.

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Speaker 3: But you know how these cases are. It's again a

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Speaker 3: domino effect. If I can get anything that's going to

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Speaker 3: cause a chain of events that will will possibly reveal

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Speaker 3: the location of my victim and get my case posed

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Speaker 3: and my answers.

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Speaker 2: You know, Sheriff, I'm just so so inspired that you are.

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Speaker 2: You call these people the same thing I called my

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Speaker 2: people my victims, And you know, I've never heard anybody

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Speaker 2: else say that in my life beside me. When you

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Speaker 2: say my victim, I mean, that tells me how much

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Speaker 2: this means to you.

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Speaker 3: Oh it does. And believe me, I won't stop off

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Speaker 3: push as long and far as I can. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm quite certain at this point I probably made a

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Speaker 3: lot of other law enforcement upset, you know. But but again,

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Speaker 3: you've got to him. That's that's why you know, we

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Speaker 3: we didn't release anything to me. The first time I

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Speaker 3: talked to him, he called the reporter out of New

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Speaker 3: York and they called me and I tried to talk him.

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Speaker 3: You know, hey, you know this is just routine. There

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Speaker 3: might not be any here. You know, I don't want

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Speaker 3: to open wounds. But of course, you know, the story

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Speaker 3: ran and caught some some buzz off that, but then

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Speaker 3: died down, and we of course had continued. You know,

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Speaker 3: we had done two prior digs at two different locations,

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Speaker 3: one in Kansas, and we're lucky to not catch any

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Speaker 3: attention on those. And you know, because it makes it

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Speaker 3: easy to move around a lot of people when they

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Speaker 3: see the media buzz, they don't want to talk to

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Speaker 3: you because they're afraid. You know, they're going to walk

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Speaker 3: out to get their mail and there's going to be

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Speaker 3: fifteen different media outlets chasing around. Ask some questions. You know,

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Speaker 3: when you run up and you know this because you've

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Speaker 3: been there. You know, you take a little couple that's

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Speaker 3: been through forty some years of misery, not knowing where

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Speaker 3: their baby is, details wondering, you know, and they go

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Speaker 3: to get their mail and somebody comes running up and says,

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Speaker 3: how do you feel Nancy? You know how they're terrible.

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Speaker 2: It's terrible, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, you don't even I mean, that's that's of course,

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Speaker 3: that's where we live in today, you know, And that's

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Speaker 3: why I try to push people, you know, to respect

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Speaker 3: those families. And Carrie, Carrie is a phenomenal, phenomenal person.

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Speaker 3: And Carrie is a true victim, just as she's as

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Speaker 3: much of a victim as as the family members of

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Speaker 3: the murdered people, and not just her but her whole family.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've been fortunate enough to to to visit

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Speaker 3: with one other family member, and I can tell you

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Speaker 3: the pain and the hurt and the things they lived with.

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Speaker 3: I mean, can you imagine, you know, you you have

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Speaker 3: nothing to do with, no knowledge't didn't didn't have anything.

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Speaker 3: But anytime you go anywhere, you're not you your bt

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Speaker 3: k's brother, or your bt k's daughter, your bt k's son,

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Speaker 3: or your bt k's wife. You know, if if if

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Speaker 3: b t k's grandkids, you know, are in school and

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Speaker 3: people find out, what what what are those other kids do?

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Speaker 3: And then if they if they have friends and they say, hey,

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Speaker 3: can I go over and stay the night there? What?

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Speaker 2: What?

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Speaker 3: What has had the world's parents going to say, you

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Speaker 3: see what I'm saying. I mean, people need to realize

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Speaker 3: that that that that the suspects families are are more

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Speaker 3: often than not.

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Speaker 2: Have been through hell and the embarrassment and the shame

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Speaker 2: attached to it much less. We know the guy's a

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Speaker 2: serial killer. How do you think he treated them growing up?

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Speaker 2: I mean, Carrie told me how awful he was to

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Speaker 2: live with. Can you even imagine?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely? But but it's it's harder on on Carrie

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Speaker 3: and the family than it is on the victims' families

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Speaker 3: because you know, when the victim's family goes somewhere, people

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Speaker 3: have compassion because of what they went through. But but

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Speaker 3: when when the suspects family goes places, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: a whole different deal. They're they're they're they're shunned, they're

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Speaker 3: talked about, they're whispered about, and and they're carrying a

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Speaker 3: harder burder and people just really need I think.

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Speaker 2: The victims family might disagree with you, because at.

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Speaker 1: Least they're all alive.

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Speaker 2: So it's that's a toss up who was You know,

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Speaker 2: everybody suffered, everybody has suffered.

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Speaker 3: I agree, don't don't don't get me wrong, I'm not

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Speaker 3: downplaying that, But I'm saying victims' family has got compassion,

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Speaker 3: where where somebody like Carrie. You know, Carrie has told

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Speaker 3: me she plans on advocating for victims as many years

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Speaker 3: as Dennis tormented society, just trying to clear their name

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Speaker 3: and do good. Where somebody did that, you know, and

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Speaker 3: you've got to admire somebody that's done that. I can

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Speaker 3: tell you she has been a tremendous asset to us.

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Speaker 3: And if you go back and look at some of

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Speaker 3: her early releases when this information broke, when Dennis put

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Speaker 3: it out, you know, I mean, she was like, I

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Speaker 3: don't believe he did any of this. And then you know,

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Speaker 3: through through time we ended up with her actually getting

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Speaker 3: to see some of the information we got, and you know,

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Speaker 3: she left here, I believe in a better position personally.

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Speaker 3: But not only that, she revealed a lot of really

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Speaker 3: really good information, because some of the notations, when you're

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Speaker 3: looking at him as a person not knowing everything, it

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Speaker 3: doesn't really make a whole lot of sense exactly. But

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Speaker 3: if you go those items with her, she can bring

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Speaker 3: them to life and fill in the gaps and make

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Speaker 3: it make perfect sense. She's the only outwitness, so you know,

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Speaker 3: it's tremendous, and you know, I would love to bring

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Speaker 3: some experts in because you know, the more recognition that

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Speaker 3: they have, the more credibility they have, the more crackh

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Speaker 3: this is going to get that is going to get

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Speaker 3: the investigation done that needs to be done. You know,

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you're aware of this or not,

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Speaker 3: but Dennis talked for thirty hours basically, and lawyered up

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Speaker 3: and then never never talked again. So the items collected

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Speaker 3: in these search warrants, he was never interviewed, item to items,

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Speaker 3: and I've had an offe opportunity to go through some

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Speaker 3: of these items with him that he hadn't seen since

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Speaker 3: his arrest. And you can imagine how that was. But

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Speaker 3: trying to get questions, you know, I mean, it's you know,

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Speaker 3: there's things he can't explain off at all. You know,

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Speaker 3: he's got kidnappings marked, not murders, but kidnapping marked in

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Speaker 3: a certain time period. And I have found letters from

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Speaker 3: people claiming to be victims that match his timeline and

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Speaker 3: we're in the process of running them down.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Sheriff All eyes on this investigation.

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Speaker 1: Good Ques