1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're trying 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: to get shouted out by Cardi B like Asia Wilson did. 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: It's Thursday, June twenty sixth Then on today's show, we'll 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: be talking to Pamela Grundy and Susan Shackelford, authors of 5 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Shattering the Glass, The Remarkable History of Women's Basketball. We'll 6 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: talk about why they decided to write a book together, 7 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: their takeaways after attending the latest Women's Basketball Hall of 8 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: Fame induction, the new pat Summit exhibit they checked out, 9 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: and the challenges of tackling a whole lot of women's 10 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: basketball history plus a high profile breakup. Number thirteen is 11 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: headed to the rafters, and it's time to. 12 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 2: Get out that eyeliner. Baby. 13 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices. 14 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: Here's what you need to know today. Let's start with 15 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: the WNBA and a star who's on the move. The 16 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: Indiana Fever announced on Wednesday that the team is waived 17 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: to Wanta Bonner, following a report on Tuesday from Front 18 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: of the Show Annie Costable that Bonner wanted out of Indiana. 19 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: The six time All Star signed a one year unprotected 20 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: contract with the Fever in February, and after starting the 21 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: first three games of the season, she was benched in 22 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: favor of Lexi Hall and came off the bench for 23 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: the next six games, but she's missed the last five 24 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,759 Speaker 1: games due to quote unquote personal reasons. Bonner last played 25 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: in the team's June tenth game against the Atlanta Dream, 26 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: in which she recorded five points, two rebounds, and two assists. 27 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: In a statement after being waived, Bonner said, quote, I 28 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: want to sincerely thank the Indiana Fever for the opportunity 29 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: to be part of the Fever franchise. Despite our shared 30 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: goals and excitement heading into the season, I felt the 31 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: fit did not work out, and I appreciate the organization's 32 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: willingness to grant my request to move on, particularly at 33 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 1: this point in my career. I wish the Fever great 34 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: success as they continue to build around this dynamic group. 35 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 2: Of young players. End quote. 36 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: Bonner has been a full time starter in the league 37 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: since twenty twelve and has averaged in double figures in 38 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: scoring in each of her fifteen previous seasons in the WNBA. 39 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: Per Annie's report for Front Office Sports, she's hoping to 40 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: land in either Phoenix or Atlanta. Bonner's high contract value 41 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: of two hundred thousand dollars for the season, it'll be 42 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: hard for most teams to claim her off waivers as 43 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: they'd be taking over her current contract, But once she 44 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: clears waivers, she could get signed to a lower value salary, 45 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: which would increase the options of where she could go. 46 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 1: With Bonner's departure comes the re signing of Airy McDonald 47 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: to a rest of season contract with the Fever. It 48 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: marks a return to Indiana for McDonald, who played three 49 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: games for the team earlier this season while in an 50 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: emergency hardship contract. The Fever are back in action tonight 51 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: with the home game against the La Sparks. More WNBA 52 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: roster movement, the Golden State Valkyrie announced on Wednesday that 53 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: the team is reactivated Temmy fag Benley following the conclusion 54 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: of Team Great Britain's participation in EuroBasket twenty twenty five, 55 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: in which the team went oh to three and finished 56 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: last in their group. With fag been lay back, the 57 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: Valx waived Aerial Powers, who had joined the team on 58 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: Jude tenth. 59 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: More Valkyrie news. 60 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: On Tuesday, Sportco published its latest WNBA franchise valuations and 61 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: the league's newest team top the list. Portico assessed that 62 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,399 Speaker 1: the Valkyries have a valuation of five hundred million dollars, 63 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: eighty million more than the second place New York Liberty 64 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: and one hundred and sixty five million more than the 65 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: third place Indiana Fever. In determining WNBA team valuations, which 66 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: is the estimated worth of a team, Sportico talked with 67 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: industry experts and league execs and owners, in addition to 68 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: considering real estate and team related assets like practice facilities. 69 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: Per the report, every WNBA team value is up more 70 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: than one hundred percent over the last twelve months, and 71 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: the teams are collectively worth three point five billion dollars. 72 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: We'll link to the full Sportico report in the show 73 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: notes more WNBA. The league announced that this week's Players 74 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: of the Week are the Washington Mystics Shakira Austin representing 75 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: the Eastern Conference, and the Seattle Storms necko Oguma kay 76 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: representing the Western Conference. It's the first time in Austin's 77 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: career that she's received Player of the Week honors, and 78 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: she's also the first Mystics player since Elena Deldon in 79 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two to earn the NOD, which UF says 80 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: a lot about the mystics the last couple of years. 81 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: Ogoomakay has been here before. She's previously been named Player 82 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: of the Week fourteen times. To the p WHL, which 83 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: held its annual draft on Tuesday night, The New York 84 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: Sirens got things started by selecting Colgate forward Christina Caltonkova 85 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: with the number one overall pick of the night, and 86 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: minutes later, Sirens general manager Pascal Daou followed that up 87 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: by making the move of the night, trading defender Ella 88 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: Shelton to Toronto to grab the number three overall pick, 89 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: which the Sirens used to select Casey O'Brien, winner of 90 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: the Patti Casmier Award for the nation's best player in 91 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: her senior season at Wisconsin this year. 92 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: And New York wasn't done making moves. 93 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: Later on draft night, Dou traded forward Abbey Rock to 94 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: Montreal in exchange for forward Kristin O'Neil. Given that the 95 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: Sirens finished last in the league for both of the 96 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: p WHL's two years in existence, the team is clearly 97 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: looking to shake things. 98 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: Up heading into season three. 99 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: Other Highlights from draft night include the Boston Fleet picking 100 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: up Clarkson defender Hailey Winn with the number two pick, 101 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: Montreal's selection of Nicole Gosling with the number four pick, 102 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: an Ottawa selection of Rory Gilday at number five, and 103 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: you know I was particularly fond of that move, as 104 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: gilde spent her college years planned for the fight in 105 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: Sarah Spains aka. 106 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 2: Cornell University. 107 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: Also shout out to fellow Cornelly and Lily Delionidas, who 108 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: was drafted in the third round by Seattle. 109 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 2: We'll link to the full p WHL draft results. 110 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: In the show notes More PWHL. The league announced its 111 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: annual award winners on Wednesday, with Montreal forward and new 112 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: friend of the Show Marie Philip Pullin receiving both the 113 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: Billie Jean King MVP Award and Forward of the Year Award. 114 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: Pulin finished the twenty twenty five season as the p 115 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: WHL's top goalscorer, finding the back of the nineteen times 116 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,679 Speaker 1: and adding seven assists. Other award winners include Toronto's Renata 117 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: Fast who is named Defender of the Year, Montreal's and 118 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: Renee Debien, who takes home Goaltender of the Year New 119 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: York Sarah Filier, who was awarded Rookie of the Year honors, 120 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: and Montreal coach Corey Schevy being named Coach of the Year. 121 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: Also shout out to another new friend of the Show, 122 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,679 Speaker 1: Laura Stacey, who received the league's Hockey for All award 123 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: after she raised more than one hundred thousand dollars through 124 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: her Sticks In for Charity Hockey tournament. The money has 125 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: been donated to athletic programs and underresourced communities in both 126 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: Toronto and Montreal to ensure that girls age twelve to 127 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: seventeen have access to sports. In honor for win, sponsor 128 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: Scotiabank will donate ten thousand Canadian dollars to the charity 129 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: of Stacy's choice. If we didn't already love that couple 130 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: enough wow. In NWSL news, expansion side Boston Legacy FC 131 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 1: has made it official selecting Benfica head coach Filippa Putau 132 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: to take up the mantle. Patau's hiring was first reported 133 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: back in May by friend at the Show Jeff cassoof, 134 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: but it's now official pending the approval of her visa. 135 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: Patau has been with Benfica's women's senior team since twenty twenty, 136 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: amassing an overwhelmingly positive all time record one hundred and 137 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: fifty six wins, twenty eight losses and fifteen draws. She 138 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 1: led the club to five consecutive Campionado Nacional titles and 139 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: to the twenty twenty three to twenty four UEFA Women's 140 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: Champions League quarterfinals, making it the first Portuguese club to 141 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: reach the tournament's knockout stage. pTau, who is non donated 142 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: for the Ball on Door for Coach of the Year 143 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: last year, starts her tenure with Boston in July, when 144 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: she'll get to work building a roster. In a Legacy release, 145 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: Patau said, quote, the American League is extremely competitive, and 146 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons I accepted this project. 147 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 2: I like competition, difficulty and getting the. 148 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: Players to strive for more and better, to transform themselves 149 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: and always demand more of themselves. I know that Boston 150 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: fans are passionate about the city and their teams, and 151 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to building a new. 152 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: History with them. End quote. 153 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: Boston Legacy FC will be the NWSL's fifteenth franchise and 154 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: start play next season. 155 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: More NWSL. 156 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: The San Diego Wave announced on Tuesday that Alex Morgan's 157 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: number thirteen jersey will officially be retired in a ceremony 158 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: on Sunday, September seventh at Snapdragon Stadium. She's the first 159 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: player in the short history of the club to receive 160 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: the honor. Morgan retired as the club's all time leading 161 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: goal scorer. In fifty appearances, she recorded twenty three goals 162 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: and nine as sists per Pro Soccer Wire. Morgan's just 163 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: the third NWSL player to have a jersey retilired. FC 164 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: Kansas City retired Lauren Holidays number twelve jersey in twenty twelve, 165 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: while the Seattle Reign retired Megan Rapino's number fifteen jersey 166 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: last season. 167 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: More Soccer. 168 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: The US women's national team takes the field at Dick's 169 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: Sporting Goods Park in Commerce City, Colorado, tonight at nine 170 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: pm Eastern for the first of two matches against Ireland. 171 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: A reminder there's a chance we could be seeing a 172 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: few friends of the Show on the pitch tonight. Angelina Anderson, 173 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: Emily SAMs, Croy, bethune Yasmine Ryan and Izzy Rodriguez all 174 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: made the latest roster. You can catch the action on TBS, 175 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: True TV, Universo Max Peacock or Westwood One Sports to 176 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: the track today in Paris, Kenyan runner Faith kitp Jegon 177 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: will attempt to become the first woman to run a 178 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: sub four minute mile. 179 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: Kitp Jegon, a three time. 180 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: Olympic gold medalist in the fifteen hundred meters, currently owns 181 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: the world record in both the fifteen hundred and the mile, 182 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: having run the latter distance in four minutes seven seconds 183 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: back in twenty twenty three. Kitp Jegon will attempt to 184 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: accomplish the sub four minute feet with the help of 185 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: a pacemaking team, Innovative Shoes, and sponsor Nike, which has 186 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: dubbed the project breaking four. Because of all the special 187 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: enhancements around the race, including the pacemakers, kit Yegon's time 188 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: won't lower the official world record, but would still be 189 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: a monumental feat. Kitpya Gun's run will be live streamed 190 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: on Prime Video and Nike's YouTube channel, with covered starting 191 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: at one fifteen pm Eastern and the event itself scheduled 192 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: to get underway at two pm Eastern. 193 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: By the way, did. 194 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: Y'all know that a mile isn't exactly sixteen hundred meters 195 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: aka four laps? Around the track. It's actually sixteen hundred 196 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: nine meters. Producer Alex didn't when she researched this, and 197 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: neither did I, and it's making both of us realize 198 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: all those quote unquote timed miles that we ran in 199 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: high school in junior high weren't actually timed miles. They 200 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: were timed sixteen hundred meters. The more you know, all 201 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: right slices. You've heard us mention many times on this 202 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: show that the WNBA is expected to agree on a 203 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: new CBA at the end of this season, So that 204 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: means both sides are geared up for what could be 205 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: a major shift in player salaries, amenities, rights and resources, 206 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: and what could be a bit of a battle behind 207 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: the scenes. Now, it's worth noting that the labor stoppage 208 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: isn't out of the question here. There's no guarantee that 209 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: the two sides are going to agree on a new deal, 210 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: but it would be a pretty terrible move for the 211 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: league and for the players to stop the current momentum 212 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: and growth with some sort of prolonged contract negotiation and 213 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: any loss of games. With that in mind, in recent days, 214 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,719 Speaker 1: the WNBPA, the players Association, has started publicly acknowledging the 215 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: upcoming negotiations via social media, wisely angling for public support 216 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: to make it more difficult for the league to deny the. 217 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 2: Players what they rightly deserve. 218 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: Among the posts by the WNBPA on Instagram, quote, men's 219 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: sports have a revenue based salary system. We deserve the same. 220 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: We're fighting for a fair share of the revenue we generate. 221 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: Fair is fair, and some of their hashtags include pay us, 222 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: fair share, transformational. Another post quote, it's simple. The player's 223 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: success should benefit the current and future generations of players 224 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: who will carry this league forward. And one more quote, 225 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: it's time to level the playing field. As the league grows, 226 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: so does our impact and worth. We're standing together for 227 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: a CBA that respects and reflects the value we bring 228 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: and the revenue we help create. If not now, when now. 229 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: The argument for players receiving a higher percentage of revenue 230 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: isn't a new one, but it has gotten stronger and 231 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: stronger with the major increases in viewership, investment, and evaluations lately. 232 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: You might remember a couple episodes ago we talked about 233 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: the New York Times opinion piece by economist Claudia Golden, 234 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: sharing that the average NBA player salary is eighty times 235 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: what the average WNBA player makes, but it should be 236 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: closer to just three to four times as much if 237 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: you base it on viewers, attendance, sponsorship, and TV money. 238 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: So you can understand why the WNBA players and the 239 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: Players Association would be pushing for a better percentage of 240 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: the revenue they bring in. After her Seattle Storms win 241 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: over the New York Liberty on Sunday, WNBA Players Union 242 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: President nek Ogumakay spoke about the negotiations, saying, quote, we 243 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: have women out here who know the business, and we 244 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: understand where our league has been and where it's going, 245 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: and we're prepared. 246 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: We're prepared, and. 247 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: We want to be able to come out here and 248 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: represent ourselves and our value the same way we do 249 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: on the court, in our contracts, in our facilities, in 250 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: the standards of the resources that are available to us. 251 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 2: End quote. 252 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: There's a scheduled meeting between the union and the league 253 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,599 Speaker 1: during next month's WNBA All Star Weekend. We'll keep you 254 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: updated on the story and on the ways the WNBPA 255 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: is using social media to make sure that fans and 256 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: media know what they're asking for, making it even more 257 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: difficult for the league to turn them down. We'll also 258 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: see if the league itself and Commissioner kat the Engelbert 259 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: start using a more public pr approach to sway folks 260 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: to their side as well. We got to take a 261 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: quick break. When we come back, watch out for those 262 00:12:51,000 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: shards of glass. It's Susan and Pamela up next joining 263 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 1: us now. She's a former sports writer for the Miami 264 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: Herald and the Charlotte Observer. She's a Phi Beta Kappa 265 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: journalism major from the UNC at Chapel Hill and was 266 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: the student. 267 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: Newspaper's first female sports editor. 268 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: Based in Charlotte, North Carolina, She's had her own writing 269 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: and consulting business since nineteen eighty two. You could find 270 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: her on the tennis court, walking, or hiking with her 271 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: wife Melissa and their dog Lucy. And she co wrote 272 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: the book Shattering the Glass, The Remarkable History of Women's Basketball. 273 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 2: It's Susan Shackelford. 274 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: Hi, Susan, Hey, good to see you, Sarah, thanks for 275 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: coming on. 276 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, this is great, we've been looking forward to it. 277 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: Well, we means there's someone else joining us, and it's 278 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: her friend, co author and neighbor, a historian, author and activist, 279 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: whose other works include From Amazon's to Glamazons, The Rise 280 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: and Fall of North Carolina Women's basketball. Her work has 281 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: won multiple academic awards, and she's written for publications including 282 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Charlotte Observer, 283 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: and The Queen City Nerve. She's currently working on a 284 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: biography of tennis and basketball Great aor Washington. 285 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 2: It's Pamela Grundy. Hi, Pamela, Hi, Sarah. 286 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to talk to both of you. We 287 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: got to meet at the final four. You were wearing 288 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: your slice Giar, which I loved, and I also love 289 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: that you are somehow neighbors, co authors and friends, and 290 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: I want to know the order of all of that 291 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: and how it happened. So, Pamela, how did you two 292 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: meet and then decide to write a book together? 293 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 4: Well, it was long, but not long. I had interviewed 294 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 4: Susan for an earlier book about playing basketball, particularly in 295 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 4: high school, which she'd done in her high school, and 296 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 4: so I knew her sort of. And then across the 297 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 4: street from where my husband and myself live, there was 298 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 4: a house for sale and people bought it. And then 299 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 4: when I saw Susan about I'm like, oh, it's Susan. 300 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 4: I know Susan, and so you know, we we talked. 301 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 4: And a little time after that, I was teaching the 302 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 4: history of sports in college at Davidson College, and I 303 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 4: realized there was no good book on women's sports that 304 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 4: you could assigned to an undergraduate. I mean this would 305 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 4: have been back two thousand and two thousand and one. 306 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 4: I mean there just there were some high level and 307 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 4: that was it. So I thought the best way to 308 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 4: fix that is to write a history of women's basketball, 309 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 4: because it's so great and so long. So I spent 310 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 4: several years trying to get someone else to write that 311 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 4: book because I didn't want to write it. But then 312 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 4: one day it just struck me out of the blue, 313 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 4: Susan and I could write that book together. 314 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: You were looking across the street. She was hanging up. 315 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: Her laundry on an old school drawing line, and you 316 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: were like, boom, yeah, no. 317 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 2: It reminds me of the quote. 318 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: I think it's like, make a decision, and the universe 319 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: will conspire to make it happen. So you were trying 320 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,239 Speaker 1: to make that decision and the universe put Susan directly 321 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: in your view, and you were like, there. 322 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 4: It is exactly there it was. 323 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: Susan, how did you feel when your next door neighbor 324 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: asked you to write a book? 325 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 3: Well, I was so excited about this possibility because I 326 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 3: love women's basketball, that I just kind of paused and 327 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 3: looked at her and said, I'm like too excited about this, 328 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 3: So I need to walk cross the street and sleep 329 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 3: on it and I'll let you know in the morning. 330 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 3: And so that's exactly what I did, and very early 331 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 3: the next morning, I talked to her and said, let's 332 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 3: get a planned. 333 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 2: Let's do it. 334 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean amazing, yeah, And we did it. 335 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: So you're both qualified to write a book, which makes 336 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: it nice if you know that your neighbor can bring 337 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: the kind of skills necessary. 338 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 2: And I want to talk about. 339 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: That quickly before we get to the book, because Susan 340 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: first female editor of The tar Heel, and you spent 341 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: time at newspapers at a time when there weren't a 342 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: lot of women in the sports section. What stands out 343 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: to you about that time and did you feel like 344 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: you had to have another particular set of skills beyond 345 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: being a writer to manage and survive and thrive. 346 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 3: Then I think you just really had to have the person, 347 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 3: passion and commitment to do it. There wasn't a lot 348 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 3: of at a girls being passed out to any of 349 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 3: us that were trying to break through. You know. When 350 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 3: I was in college, I was often, you know, waiting 351 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 3: outside the locker room and begging guys to go in 352 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 3: there and get quotes from players. They wouldn't let me in. 353 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 3: They were only a handful of us trying to cover 354 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 3: things here in North Carolina at the time, you know. 355 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 3: And when I went to the newspapers, you know, I 356 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 3: was I was not the first person woman but at 357 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 3: either the Chot Observer or the Miami Herald. But at 358 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 3: the time that I went there, I was the only one. 359 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 3: And it was still the seventies and it was hard 360 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 3: to get people really interested in women's sports. So, I mean, 361 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 3: that's just been a problem that we charted with basketball 362 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 3: in the book. 363 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, Pamily, You've written a number of other books, including 364 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: the North Carolina Women's Basketball one I mentioned, but also 365 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: American Sports Teaching US History through sports. Over the course 366 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: of your career, as you've tried to figure out what 367 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: your next big topic might be, what has pushed you 368 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: towards the book? What has pushed you toward this is 369 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: just an article versus this is something I want to 370 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 1: dive deeply into. 371 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 4: Well, I think part of it is really I am 372 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 4: not actually an academic. I mean I have a PhD. 373 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 4: But okayma independently. 374 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: Come on, you are an academic if you have a pafd. 375 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 4: Well, academic. It's not necessarily the most positive words. Sometimes so, 376 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 4: especially when they talk about your writing, there's like, oh, 377 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 4: it's very academic. That is not fair, not a compliment. 378 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 4: But in any case, the way books come to me, 379 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 4: like this women's basketball book, I was like, well, this 380 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 4: needs to happen. This needs to be done by biography 381 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 4: of or Washington to a degree, this needs to be done. 382 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 4: This woman needs to have biography to cement her place. 383 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 4: And she was the first great national black female athletic star. 384 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 4: She's this extraordinary person that people need to know about, 385 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 4: so needs to be done. That's kind of what I 386 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 4: look for. Of course, that's to be interesting. Yeah, I 387 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 4: could write something boring just because it needs to be well. 388 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: Boring probably doesn't need to be done quite so often 389 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: as it is really exciting. 390 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: Need to know So let's talk about your book. 391 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: Tackling the history of women's sports is a big task. 392 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: Whittling it down to the most compelling, most important, most meaningful, 393 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: most change making moments must have been difficult. So, Susan, 394 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: you mentioned your first response is, yes, I'll write the book. 395 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: Let's map it out, let's plan it out. What was 396 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: that first step to understanding what you wanted to get 397 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: across with the book and what stories you wanted to 398 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: make sure you're told. 399 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 3: Well, I think the first thing was to look at 400 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 3: where our strengths lay. And Sam, given her background and 401 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 3: her background in the. 402 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 4: End academic, well it's hurting. 403 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 3: At this time. Yeah, she knew where there was a 404 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 3: lot of material on this history of women's basketball going 405 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 3: back to eighteen ninety two when the game started. She 406 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 3: knew where it was, and she thought, well, Susan's been 407 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 3: covering women's sports since the seventies and I was a 408 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 3: pretty title nine baby, and I sort of went through 409 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 3: the difficulties there and came forward that I know the 410 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 3: more modern stuff. So we kind of talked about the 411 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 3: lay of the land as it were, as to where 412 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 3: we could both have our greatest strengths, and then we 413 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 3: also knew we had to decide how we're going to 414 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 3: tell it, what you know, and how we were going 415 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 3: to work together. The beauty of it was we're both 416 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 3: former journalist. I am worked at newspapers. I worked at newspapers. 417 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 3: We had a similar idea about how to tell stories, 418 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 3: and I cannot tell you how that just simplified matters 419 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 3: so much. And then I think as we talked about 420 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 3: the material, we started honing our homing in on the stories. 421 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard for me to imagine, as someone who 422 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: just wrote my first book, the idea of having to 423 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: have a co author with the same voice. I do 424 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 1: have a co author, but it's his life story, so 425 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: he just had to tell me the story. 426 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 2: I had to turn it into book for him. 427 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: But writing together and like you said, having the same 428 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: approach to reporting and telling a story super super important. Pamela, 429 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear a couple of standout selections from 430 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: the book you can share with our listeners to entice 431 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: them to buy the whole thing. 432 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 2: Because it is comprehensive. 433 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: I was so impressed by the research that you did 434 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: and the way you made it really interesting to read 435 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: about things you know, Like you said, dating really far back. 436 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 2: So what's the story that's ends out to you. 437 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 4: Well, I love the story of the young women who 438 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 4: started playing basketball in the nineteen twenties. This was a 439 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 4: moment when high schools were being built and sports was 440 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 4: coming to high schools, and high schools were you know, 441 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 4: boys and girls, and so all of a sudden, these 442 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 4: young women had access to playing sports, generally basketball because 443 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 4: I was considered the you know, appropriate sport for young women. 444 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 4: And also a lot of rural schools, I mean boys 445 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 4: was basketball too, because they didn't have enough boys for 446 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 4: a football team. So basketball was the thing. And these 447 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 4: young women, this is something they've never been able to 448 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 4: do before, and the way they talk about it is 449 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 4: so interesting. I'll just take a couple of examples from Charlotte. 450 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 4: There was a group of young women who started the 451 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 4: team at Central High School, which is Charlotte's main white 452 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 4: high school. And she said, well, we went up to 453 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 4: the you know, just to the principal and said were 454 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 4: you were your basketb that we're in. And then in 455 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 4: the in the yearbook, you see written under the picture 456 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 4: it says man's age has been here to four, but 457 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 4: now woman's age is coming in in politics and in athletics. 458 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: I can't decide if I'm excited or disappointed and depressed 459 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: by that. It feels like we've been saying that for 460 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: quite a long time and we have yet to make 461 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: it fully realized. 462 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 4: Well, it's true, they had suffrage had just passed, so 463 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 4: it was a moment of grade seven. But then the 464 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 4: other piece, and this is a young woman. About three 465 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 4: years later, I interviewed her when she was in her eighties, 466 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 4: and one of the first things she did they had 467 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 4: she had a picture of the team and she points 468 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 4: to it and she says, we rolled out. You see 469 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 4: how we did it, And what that meant was they 470 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 4: had short gloomers and they had rolled their stockings down 471 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 4: below their knees, and that was just again daring and 472 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 4: challenging the rules. And seventy years later she remembered that 473 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 4: vividly and. 474 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: Was very Yeah, I love the photos from those early 475 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: days because it is this ridiculous to imagine trying to 476 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: play basketball in a poofy skirt. And also some of 477 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: the reporting. One of the games was described as very 478 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 1: exciting despite the low score, and I'm like, oh, what 479 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: kind of low score? 480 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: Two to one? Two to one. 481 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: It was with the vital score of the game, so 482 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: the scoring was a little different as. 483 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 2: You can tell. 484 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was one point at a time. 485 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: Amazing to imagine that there was a high excitement to 486 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: the game despite only a few baskets being made. 487 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 3: It speaks to how they tried to keep the game 488 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 3: fairly sedate. Women were itching to play, as Pam described, 489 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 3: and they needed something to do, but then they put 490 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 3: all these constraints on them. Yeah, not just their clothes, 491 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 3: which were the close of the day, but the rules 492 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 3: of the game and what they could and couldn't do, 493 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 3: and oh it was. It was just kind of an nightmare. 494 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 2: For a very long time. 495 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: Women's basketball was half court, no dribbling, and six people 496 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: to a side. So it wasn't really the basketball that 497 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: we think of, But it would be delightful to play 498 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: that if you had been given nothing else. And that 499 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: was one of the things that stood out to me 500 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: from that section of the book is I had never 501 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: really considered the idea that basketball came along after sports 502 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: that men were playing, that they never would have allowed 503 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: women to things like football, things that had really physical play. 504 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: And even if it was a different form of basketball, 505 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: where you're standing and not dribbling and not creating contact, 506 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: it still was a game that they were excited to 507 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: have the chance to play. Susan, what's a segment of 508 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: the book or a story from the book that really 509 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: stands out to you when. 510 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 3: I think back on Title nine, I think back on 511 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 3: how we had some coaches that were able to step 512 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 3: in when everything was new with that wall, and where 513 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 3: did they come from? Where they came from was really 514 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 3: a bleak period in women's basketball. There was not hardly 515 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 3: any of it across the country except in small towns 516 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,199 Speaker 3: and rural areas. And a lot of the women that 517 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 3: played that came out of those areas. They loved it 518 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 3: just as much as all these other women. And so 519 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 3: then at Title nine and a little before, some of 520 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 3: them got involved in these fledgling programs. And k Yal 521 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 3: at NC State is a perfect example. She graduated high 522 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 3: school in nineteen sixty, she left basketball behind. She didn't 523 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 3: think about it, there wasn't an option. And then later 524 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 3: she had her teaching degree, she wants to get a job. 525 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 3: She goes to the high school not too far from 526 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 3: her house, just maybe thirty minutes away, and the guy 527 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 3: remembered what a high school star she was in her town, 528 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 3: and he said, well, I will give you a job 529 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 3: if you will be my girls' basketball coach. Said well, 530 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 3: I didn't train to be a basketball coach. He said, 531 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 3: I don't care, and she said, well I want the job, 532 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 3: I'll do it. And as soon as she did, she 533 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 3: got into it. She absolutely loved it, and she realized 534 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 3: that she all the way through college when she was 535 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 3: training to be a teacher, she had just kind of 536 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 3: felt like something was really missing, and it was that 537 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 3: passion for the game, having that outlet, and so it 538 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 3: rekindled that. And there are other women like that. Not 539 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 3: exactly Ka's story, but Kay, as you know, went on 540 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 3: to be a great coach at NC. 541 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: State and has left a lasting legacy in a number 542 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: of ways for sure. 543 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 4: And another great coach, Vivian Stringer. Her high school didn't 544 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 4: have a basketball team, and to get near to the 545 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 4: games because she would play like on the playground with 546 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,959 Speaker 4: all the old boys, she had to become a cheerleader. 547 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 4: That was that was it for her, and then she 548 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 4: moved from that to her fabulous coaching career. But there 549 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 4: was no girl sports at her at her. 550 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 2: School, wild to imagine that. 551 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: I was thinking, I wished I had read your book 552 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: before the interview I did with Muffett mcgron, Tara Vanderveer, 553 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: because at this point, Tara's career is so legendary. There 554 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: is so much to ask her about from her years 555 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: at Stanford, and I didn't even dive deep enough to 556 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: understand that she also came from a very different time 557 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 1: before she had the opportunity to become the Hall of 558 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: Famer that she has. 559 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 2: Can you speak to that, Pamela. 560 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 4: Well, absolutely. I mean again, you be growing up mostly 561 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 4: the late fifties to the sixties, and they just won 562 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 4: any sports, you know. I think she says in the 563 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 4: book that then at that time a lot of boys 564 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 4: wouldn't play with girls either. I think said she saved 565 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 4: her money, went out and got the best basketball she 566 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 4: could find, and if the boys wanted to play with 567 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,719 Speaker 4: that basketball, they'd have to play with her. I mean, 568 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 4: you can see how you develop this kind of determination. 569 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 4: Because she loved the game. She played as much as 570 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 4: she could. She tried to play a little bit in college, 571 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 4: but it was that very beginning. But she had to 572 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 4: take that passion. She had to make her own way 573 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 4: basically as opposed to now, where at least there's some 574 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 4: idea of how you might do it. 575 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: It's pretty remarkable to think about how recent that is. 576 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: That this is a coach that just retired a couple 577 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: of years ago, but when she started out, that was 578 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: still the state of the game for women. And she 579 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: even mentioned in our interview and was pretty effusive and 580 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: passionate about not wanting the love of the game part 581 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: of it to be lost to nil and the modernization 582 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: and professionalization of the college game. 583 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 2: And you could tell when. 584 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: She spoke to it that like it really meant something 585 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: when she said, I was dying for every chance an 586 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: opportunity I had to get on a court, whether paid 587 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: or unpaid, whether. 588 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 2: Anyone was watching or not. It was just about basketball. 589 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,959 Speaker 1: And while some people might turn up their nose at 590 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: older folks who seem critical or at least have some 591 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: sort of judgment about the new look of collegiate sports, 592 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: I understand it when you phrase it that way. I 593 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: get that there needs to be a balance of the two. 594 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: And it's great to also reward these players for their skills. 595 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 2: But there is. 596 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: Something very romantic and true and pure about the way 597 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: the women who started the game sow it because they 598 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: had no choice but to be so passionate as to 599 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: muscle their way in to the opportunities that they got. 600 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: Do you have one or two more stories from the 601 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: book you'd like to share, either one of you or both. 602 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 3: Well, one thing that was pivotal in where we are 603 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 3: today was the nineteen ninety six Olympic team. And I 604 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 3: don't know how much you remember about that, per se, 605 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 3: but when we were you know, this was what six 606 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 3: seven years before we started the book. Well, I had 607 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 3: been going to women's final fours for years, and I 608 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 3: went to I went to all kinds of games. I 609 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,719 Speaker 3: knew in the early nineties that things were really improving. 610 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 3: Cheryl Swoops came on the scene. She lit it up 611 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 3: in the Final four. And then just after that, the 612 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 3: NBA and the Olympic Committee and corporate sponsor said, we 613 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 3: really need to make a run at the ninety six Olympics. 614 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 3: And we had the women had only won the bronze 615 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 3: in ninety two, and they're like, we need the gold. 616 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 3: So they put money up and they put together a 617 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 3: team that went all around the country and overseas playing 618 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 3: the train. Essentially, they were unbelievable. Don Staley was on 619 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: that swoops, Rebecca Lobo, Gosh, I wish I could name 620 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,479 Speaker 3: them all. They were just unbelievable, and I got to 621 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 3: see them win the gold in Atlanta, amaz It was 622 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 3: just and that whole arena was pulsating. I will never 623 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 3: forget it. And I thought, this has is a pivotal moment. 624 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 3: I think some stuff's going to come out of this. 625 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 3: And sure enough, you know, we got the ABL then 626 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 3: we got to WNDA, and the WNDA is still going 627 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 3: and going at great strength right now. 628 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Pamela, she mentioned that that Olympics was just a 629 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: couple of years before you started the book. That's because 630 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: there was a two thousand and five edition, but you 631 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: updated it in twenty twenty five. So I'm curious about 632 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: the notable editions that made you feel like, oh, we've 633 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: got to re. 634 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 2: Release this and talk about what's happening now. 635 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 4: Well, that's exactly how we felt. And of course we 636 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 4: had it all organized before Caitlyn Clark burst upon the scene, 637 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 4: and you know, interest is jumped, but we could we 638 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 4: since there was more interest, you know, the game was 639 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 4: growing again. We thought those you know, like you said 640 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 4: about the nineteen twenties. We thought this was happening at 641 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 4: the beginning of the entry, you know, you thought, oh, 642 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 4: it's going to get better and better and better and better, 643 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 4: and we'll have our book and it'll be great. But 644 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 4: of course that's not what happened. But there were some 645 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 4: tremendous changes, particularly in the social activism that the WNBA 646 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 4: was taking on. I mean, it's something much more than 647 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 4: just oh, you know this had you know, day one 648 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 4: and then day one and the day one we were 649 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 4: really looking. The reason what brought us to it was 650 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 4: really thinking there's a lot more to be said both 651 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 4: about basketball and about how it and the players and 652 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 4: the game interact with society. So we have one section 653 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 4: on the way that that players overcame to a considerable 654 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 4: degree the homophobia that had kind of pervaded not just 655 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 4: society but also the organization to a degree, publicity agents, 656 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 4: all of that, and they just addressed it and dealt 657 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 4: with it. Then you both got people playing better, they're 658 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 4: more themselves, you know, Super talks about that that you 659 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 4: can just do better when you're not trying to hide something, 660 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 4: And so that happened, and then we look at the 661 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 4: Black Lives Matter work, which some people don't know started 662 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 4: with the Minnesota Lynx the sports and then it was 663 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 4: only when Colin kaepernet knelt sometime later that you know, 664 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 4: it really took off. But the WNBA then in their 665 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 4: wubble in twenty twenty, were very open and very focused 666 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 4: about what they thought should happen in society, the inequalities 667 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 4: they saw, and just speaking out on that. So there 668 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 4: was a lot of stuff to do. 669 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a lot to add. 670 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: It's been really rocket ship sort of growth the last 671 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: couple of years, which has been really exciting, but it 672 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: is always a little heartbreaking to me when I read 673 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: about or see reports of giant crowds and tons of 674 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: enthusiasm decades and decades and decades ago, and think to myself, 675 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: without the intentional suppression of this, if it had been supported, 676 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: invested in, and talked about the way we do men's 677 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: where would we be now. I'm grateful for where we are, 678 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: but also extremely pissed. I want to talk about the 679 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: way that the game keeps growing and the things that 680 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: you could be tempted to add to a future edition 681 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: of the book, and that includes the recent Women's Basketball 682 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: Hall of Fame inductions and the stories that you heard there, 683 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: the folks that were being honored there, Susan or Are 684 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: there a couple of memorable moments from that because you 685 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,919 Speaker 1: two attended that together just a couple of weeks ago. 686 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, we did. It was great. We got an invitation 687 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 3: from the Hall of Fame to come and that was 688 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 3: so nice. We autographed books. People really seem to like it. 689 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,720 Speaker 3: We were able to talk to all the inductees, plus 690 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,280 Speaker 3: be there for the opening of the Pat Summit exhibit, 691 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 3: the new one. I mean, obviously they've had her in there, 692 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 3: but this is on a whole other level. And Pam 693 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 3: and I both noticed when we first gazed on that 694 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 3: on that exhibit, how they captured Pat with a quote 695 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 3: about just out working people and they did a front 696 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 3: on picture of her with the famous stare. 697 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 2: You know, the low. 698 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 3: It was. It was so that was such a great choice. 699 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 3: And then when you stepped inside it, you were just 700 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 3: enveloped with everything Pat. I mean, it was quite quite remarkable. 701 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 3: And uh, Pam, I'll let you pick up if you 702 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 3: want to add another story, there's plenty of them. 703 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 4: It's one of the people it was just great to 704 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 4: see was Lucille Cavallos, who was so significant in this 705 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,839 Speaker 4: early era that sometimes gets lost. I think, as we've 706 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 4: all seen, always assumed things have always been the way 707 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 4: they were. People don't necessarily think about how they got there. 708 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 4: So some people just think the NCAA was it. You know, 709 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 4: the records start there they were when they took over, 710 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 4: and I think nineteen eighty two they forget those earlier 711 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 4: years that there was a whole group of women who 712 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 4: worked against much more significant odds who built the game 713 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 4: up in Lucille Cavallos, who was at Queen's was one 714 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 4: of those early early pioneers. One of the things cool. 715 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 4: Lots of people came to support her because she just 716 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 4: you know, she was a mentor. She had all this 717 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 4: influence beyond just coaching. But Kathy Rush came from from 718 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 4: the Whaling team, you know, the coach that took Whale 719 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 4: into three straight championships in that earlier era. Because I 720 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 4: think she'd she'd worked with Lucille, she'd been a coach 721 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 4: or a player. I can't remember. 722 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 3: She actually was a player under Lucille when Lucille was 723 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 3: at Westchester State, another early leader in the late sixties 724 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 3: seventies for women's basketball, and I believe Rush actually was 725 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 3: the coach of Ammacilotta. 726 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 4: Oh I'm sorry, I said, Whalen, No, you're absolutely right. 727 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 3: That's okay. Yeah, yeah, when they got those national titles, 728 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 3: and she might even still be there today, except that 729 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 3: when Title nine came in, they the school being very 730 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 3: small and the Catholic school, they didn't feel like they 731 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 3: had the money for scholarships and that was going to 732 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 3: be essential. And Kathy said, and she reiterated it to 733 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 3: me when I saw her, I met her when she 734 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 3: was there, that you know, they just couldn't do it. 735 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 3: So she stepped out at that time and just concentrated 736 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 3: on her basketball camps that she had for kids. And 737 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 3: so Lucille also was part of the first women's basketball 738 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 3: game at Madison Square Garden and that was really significant. 739 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 3: That was in the seventies. And she told the story 740 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 3: about how she was called and now I can't remember 741 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,359 Speaker 3: who it was that had the foresight about this, but 742 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 3: somebody out outside the school and just said, would you 743 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 3: be interested in this? And this was like mid seventies, 744 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 3: and she just said, of course, I would love it. 745 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 3: So she and who was a team she played? 746 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,919 Speaker 4: Did she play at mac Queens. 747 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 3: She was at Queen's but I can't remember right off 748 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,720 Speaker 3: who her opponent was, but it was on television and 749 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 3: you know, massive crowd there, big crowd on television, and 750 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 3: then I think they actually played another game later. I 751 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 3: mean that was a I remember that I was in 752 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 3: college and just after college when that was happening. So 753 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 3: to me to meet the famous Lucille Cavallas was a thrill. 754 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 1: Well, stories like that are why your book is so important, 755 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 1: Because when we hear about these WNBA games being moved 756 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: to NBA stadiums, we talk about the attendance, we talk 757 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 1: about the eyeballs. It's important to know the context that 758 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: there were games at MSG all those years ago, that 759 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 1: there were these moments and sparks for women's sport, and 760 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: YouTube documenting that and chronicling it and being a part 761 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: of the fandom and the support and the journalism around 762 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: this for so long is to be commended, and so 763 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: thank you for being on the forefront of this for 764 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 1: such a long time and for creating this incredible book 765 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: for those of us who came around later and want 766 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: to learn about what happened before us and get the 767 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: context and the nuance to really enjoy what we're watching now. 768 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: So thanks so much for the book, and thanks so much. 769 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 2: For coming on. 770 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 3: Oh you're welcome. 771 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: Thanks, We got to take another break when we come back. 772 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: Are they goth or do they just play women's basketball? 773 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: Welcome back, slices. We love that you're listening, but we 774 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: want you to get in the game every day too. 775 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: So here's our good game play of the day. Go 776 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: get Pamela and Susan's book, Shattering the Glass, The remarkable 777 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 1: History of women's Basketball. There's so much more in the 778 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: book that we didn't get to talk about, and it's 779 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: the kind of context in history we're always preaching on 780 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,399 Speaker 1: this show, stuff that'll make you appreciate the current moment 781 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: in women's hoops even more. We always love to hear 782 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 1: from you, too, so hit us up on email good 783 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: game at Wondermedia network dot com or leave us a 784 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 1: voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty seventy and 785 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. Come on, scroll down, 786 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: give us five stars, tell us you love us. 787 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 2: It's really easy. 788 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:33,479 Speaker 1: Promise watch goth basketball player Kaitlyn Cunningham aka Caitlin Dark 789 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: aka Deathcab for Kaitlin aka Backboard Confessional, rating ten out. 790 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 2: Of ten shades of black. 791 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 1: In Every Game Day Makeup Book review, Australian basketball player 792 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: Kaitlyn Cunningham set the Internet on fire with their goth makeup, 793 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: tattoos and just general emo vibes. Caitlin Rock's heavy eyeliner 794 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 1: and eyeshadow on the court for the Rockhampton Cyclones of 795 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 1: the Australian NBL one East League. Not only do they 796 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 1: ball out boy on the court, they're in a queer 797 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 1: pop punk band and model on the side as well, 798 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,720 Speaker 1: and my favorite part of the story. In a TikTok video, 799 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 1: talking about their sudden fame, Cunningham said, the comments in 800 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: their videos and posts have been all positive, with tons 801 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 1: of folks showing love for their unique and badass look. 802 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: And this is why I love women's sports. I've said 803 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 1: it once, They'll say it again. This is the good place. 804 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: Now it's your turn, y'all, rate and review, Thanks for listening, 805 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: See you tomorrow. Good game, Susan, good game, Pamela. You 806 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: anyone still voting for known sex harassers and pieces of shit? 807 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: To quote New York City Comptroller Brad Lander, good gin riddance. 808 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:37,360 Speaker 2: Andrew Cuomo. 809 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports 810 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,360 Speaker 1: production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. 811 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 2: You could find us on the. 812 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 813 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,800 Speaker 1: Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie 814 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: and Misha Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, 815 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutter, 816 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: Brittany Martinez, Grace Lynch and Gianna Palmer. Are Associate producer 817 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,360 Speaker 1: is Lucy Jones and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain