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Speaker 1: brought to you by The Snowman. See it only in

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Speaker 1: theaters on October. It's presented by Universal Pictures. It's a

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Speaker 1: new film based on its terrifying bestseller. I don't like

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Speaker 1: scary movies, but this movie looks amazing. I cannot tell you.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to give you any spoilers or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. But if you've read the book, you know

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Speaker 1: it's super, super scary, So go see it in theaters October,

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Speaker 1: I think as looking. Hi there, welcome to another episode

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Speaker 1: of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, as always, by Devin and Steve,

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Speaker 1: and we are going to talk about another really fascinating

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Speaker 1: little mystery. Uh. This is a series of really grewsome

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Speaker 1: serial killings that took place in London in the eighties.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about Jack the Ripper did that already, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we did that already. This is this guy is actually

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Speaker 1: worse than Jack, I believe it or not. And the

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Speaker 1: reason I'm doing this is well, of course this is

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Speaker 1: October and this is a Halloween month, as you know,

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Speaker 1: and so we decided we're going to talk about mysteries

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Speaker 1: that are gory, creepy or scarier Queen style mysteries absolutely

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Speaker 1: because Halloween, right, Yeah, lean into our true time crime

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Speaker 1: nature exactly. I want to give a shout out first

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Speaker 1: to our listener, Mary, who I think suggested this back

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Speaker 1: in Mars. I'm not sure, but she said that we

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Speaker 1: should do a story about the Torso and the Thames.

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Speaker 1: I did a little checking on the interwebs. And there's

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Speaker 1: another more recent one, like in two thousand and one

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Speaker 1: they found the child's torso floating in the Thames River,

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Speaker 1: and it was a big story in the US. That

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Speaker 1: wasn't the one she was suggested, you'd rather talk about

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Speaker 1: this one than not. No, it is a better one, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so Mary, I think you suggested it, so thanks. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also first a warning, this is a very gruesome tale.

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Speaker 1: Would you guys not agree? Yeah? Yeah, some listeners may

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Speaker 1: find it disturbing, because well it is disturbing, so you

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Speaker 1: listener discretion, and if you decide to turn off your

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Speaker 1: iPod not listen, we won't take any of less of you,

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Speaker 1: and we won't make fun of you. So let's get

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Speaker 1: on with us. Not that they turned it off, Yeah, okay, okay.

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Speaker 1: What we're talking about is the London Torso murders of

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Speaker 1: the late eighteen eighties. These are also known as the

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Speaker 1: Thames Torso murders and more less often as the embankment

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Speaker 1: murders that take place right around the time that Jack

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Speaker 1: the Ripper was making a name for himself. And as

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Speaker 1: I said before, in my opinion, they were kind of

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Speaker 1: more heinous than Jack the Ripper's work. But for one

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Speaker 1: some reason or another, Jack the Ripper is a household name,

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Speaker 1: and nobody's heard of the Torso murderer. Why why Well,

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Speaker 1: I have series about that. I'll talk about that a

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Speaker 1: little later, I guess. But but you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of Jack had a better publicists, perhaps, yeah, or

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Speaker 1: maybe the press could just only focus on one heinous

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Speaker 1: killer at the time and so they up the coin.

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Speaker 1: Actually that could be so let me get into the

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Speaker 1: murders real quick. There weren't near There weren't quite as

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Speaker 1: many as Jack, so that might have count for some

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Speaker 1: of it. The first murder took place in what's called Rainhom.

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Speaker 1: It's spelled rayn Ham, and I think it might be Rainhom,

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Speaker 1: but knowing you know your friends, the British is probably

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Speaker 1: pronounced rum, so I'm gonna go with Raynhom. I guess.

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Speaker 1: Our first body was found in eighties seven in Random,

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Speaker 1: which is on the Thames on the eastern outskirts of London,

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Speaker 1: and it's now part of Greater London, But in eighteen

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Speaker 1: eighties seven it was actually a separate town with a

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Speaker 1: lot of major cities. Nowadays, Yeah, they've absorbed the suburbs,

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Speaker 1: so it might be more appropriate called these murders the

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Speaker 1: Thames Torso murderers, but I don't know. I kind of

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Speaker 1: like to London Towardso murders better. What do you guys think, Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't really care, stick with it. I mean anything

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Speaker 1: that says Torso murders and let's frankly, let's let's you

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Speaker 1: know that's standard there on end. Right. Well, so they

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Speaker 1: found a body. What they found was a tors of

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Speaker 1: a body which was wrapped in a bundle as found

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Speaker 1: in the river. I was just gonna ask Joe, I

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Speaker 1: you what it was wrapped in? No, I don't actually,

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Speaker 1: I mean some of them they actually said, like that

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Speaker 1: one that was like wrapped in black cloth, you know.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, well, and that's that's why I was asking,

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Speaker 1: because suddenly I realized I can't remember what this particular

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Speaker 1: one was wrapped in, just cloth of some sort, but

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Speaker 1: continue on, sir. Yeah. And then over the next several weeks,

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Speaker 1: other body parts kept showing up, and the police just

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Speaker 1: kept on collecting them, and eventually they were able to

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Speaker 1: piece together on almost complete body. The other things missing

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Speaker 1: were the head and the uppard chest, so like the

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Speaker 1: shoulder area. Yeah, naturally they were not able to determine

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Speaker 1: the cause of death. I mean, jeez, maybe it was

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Speaker 1: being like sliced up in Yeah, I don't know. There

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Speaker 1: were no actual signs of violence apart from being chopped up.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, chopped a body. There's some signs of violence

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Speaker 1: right there. There is kind of that. Yeah, And of

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Speaker 1: course the victim was never identified because the head never

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Speaker 1: turned end up, and of course they didn't have DNA

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Speaker 1: or fingerprinting back. Yeah, and I've been soaking in the

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Speaker 1: river for a while. That probably didn't help things too much.

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Speaker 1: I don't know of any attempts to make that were

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Speaker 1: made to length the body to missing person reports, because

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what they had in terms of

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Speaker 1: missing person reports in those days in London, because it

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Speaker 1: was even that in those days a huge, sprawling city

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Speaker 1: with it had been going through a huge period of urbanization.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people were flooding from the countryside into

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Speaker 1: London and a lot of other major European cities at

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Speaker 1: that time, and a lot of them were also shipping

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Speaker 1: out for other kind of work. Absolutely, so it was

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Speaker 1: so somebody advantaged so that it didn't necessarily mean anything.

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Speaker 1: I mean great times if you're a serial killer. I

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Speaker 1: mean like that's why there are two of them, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or three or who knows. So obviously this person was

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Speaker 1: never identified, It didn't really go anywhere. It didn't become

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Speaker 1: a huge story until a little over a year later

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Speaker 1: when the second Torso was discovered. And this happened in

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Speaker 1: the White Hall and this happened that the body was discovered,

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Speaker 1: or the tour so was discovered or no, excuse me,

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Speaker 1: the arm was discovered September eleven. You know that they

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Speaker 1: ever forget? Yeah right, arm and a shoulder were found

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Speaker 1: on the shore of the Thames in central London. This

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Speaker 1: is in the Pimblico neighborhood, which I'm sure you will know, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course. Yeah, for our London, for our our London listeners.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to do this every time, but between

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Speaker 1: Victoria railway station and the Thames west of Vauxhall Bridge,

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Speaker 1: there wasn't much to be done with the arms since,

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Speaker 1: as I said, already a finger putting in DNA didn't exist.

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Speaker 1: I assume they either tossed it or maybe they kept

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Speaker 1: it on ice for a while. They had to have

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Speaker 1: kept it somewhere based on what happened afterwards. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you would think that. I assume they didn't just pitch it.

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Speaker 1: A police surgeon named Thomas Bond did take note of it,

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Speaker 1: which came in handy about three weeks later when the

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Speaker 1: tours so that went with the arms showed up, which

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Speaker 1: it did, and this this new tour so that was

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Speaker 1: found in the seller. This is a funny part. Well

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Speaker 1: some people find a little ironic. Anyway, It was found

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Speaker 1: in the seller of a new bill thing that was

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Speaker 1: being built by the Metropolitan Police Service, but we also

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Speaker 1: know as Scotland Yard. Yeah. Yeah. They had outgrown their

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Speaker 1: old headquarters and so they were constructing a new headquarters

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Speaker 1: building on what's called the Victoria Embankment. I don't have

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Speaker 1: an address. You can find the coordinates if you guys

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Speaker 1: are interested. You want the latitude and longitude. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The building is still there, apparently, it's called the Norman

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Speaker 1: Shaw North Building and Scotland Yard has long since moved out,

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Speaker 1: although apparently they have plans to move back into the neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: They're going to move back into the building next door

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Speaker 1: sometime soon. Yeah. Apparently the Yaraties like to move around

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Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah, yeah, well, they get I think they

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Speaker 1: get tired of people walking into report crimes and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, so every now again they just pack up

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Speaker 1: and moved. Yeah, I know, so they're they're they're moving around.

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Speaker 1: But the tourist that was found in a vault in

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Speaker 1: the cellar, I'm not sure exactly how much construction have

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Speaker 1: been done the building as far as I know, it's

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Speaker 1: far from complete, but they had at least done the seller,

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Speaker 1: and in the seller was a vault and they founded

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Speaker 1: this torso in that vault on October two. Apparently nobody

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Speaker 1: had been in the vault for about three days, but

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Speaker 1: somebody had been in it three days before, and there

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Speaker 1: were no corpses or body parts at that time. Are

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Speaker 1: you sure about the Okay? I want to ask, because

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Speaker 1: I've seen this too, and I've seen it a couple

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Speaker 1: of different ways, is how far the construction had actually

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Speaker 1: gotten Because it is possible to, you know, make a

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Speaker 1: basement and pour the walls and have an area that's

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Speaker 1: going to be the vault, but it's still open on

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Speaker 1: the top and people could chuck stuff in. So that's

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Speaker 1: why I'm asking, do we have any sense of how

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Speaker 1: complete it is? Because, like the reading is they chucked

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Speaker 1: it over the fence and it went in, and like,

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Speaker 1: it makes me wonder, It's hard to say. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if they if they had actually gone along

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Speaker 1: and actually roofing over the whole thing. I sort of

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Speaker 1: got the impression from reading it that the killer would

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Speaker 1: have had to actually enter the vault to leave the

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Speaker 1: body there. But I'm not a hunder percent sure about that. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Other way, it's pretty cheeky. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So our

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Speaker 1: body or excuse me, our torso was wrapped in cloth,

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Speaker 1: tied up with the string, and our police surgeon Thomas Bond,

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Speaker 1: remember him, He remembered the arm of the shoulder and

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Speaker 1: realized that the arm of the torso were a match.

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Speaker 1: I'm having a hard time picturing the way that these

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Speaker 1: torso torsos are cut up. Was it consistent every time

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Speaker 1: they were bisected? It sounds like it sounds like it

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Speaker 1: wasn't totally consistent. Now, okay, so on this one, it

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Speaker 1: was what the cut was like around the shoulder, just

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Speaker 1: the shoulder, yeah, I think that, like, yeah, the shoulder

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Speaker 1: joint and stuff. Yeah, and then legs, you know, right

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Speaker 1: at the hips and then and then maybe chopping at

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Speaker 1: some of them were like chopped in the quarters for

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Speaker 1: this one. Okay, well, and and let's talk about this now,

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Speaker 1: because there is stuff out there where people will say

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Speaker 1: they will throw around the terms of surgical skill or

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Speaker 1: knowledge of you know, dissection, like as a butcher. They

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Speaker 1: make it out as if every cut was clean, But

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Speaker 1: when you read certain sites, they actually kind of clarify

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Speaker 1: there are certain joints that you simply can't just cleanly

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Speaker 1: cut into. Like let's say, cutting a leg from the hip.

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Speaker 1: You kind of gotta get in there to pry the

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Speaker 1: hip bone and the is the top on the femur,

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Speaker 1: the femur out of the socket. You know, you really

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Speaker 1: kind of gotta get in and reef stuff apart. So

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Speaker 1: it's not all smooth, beautiful cuts. There are times where

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Speaker 1: it's like, you know, there's somebody's cutting it and hacking

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Speaker 1: it and reefing on it, but they didn't take a

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Speaker 1: saw and cut parts of I will say, though, the

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Speaker 1: example I'll use is like when Booth tries to when

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Speaker 1: he because he knows how to do this really well,

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Speaker 1: like cuts up a chicken, right, versus when I try

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Speaker 1: to cut up a chicken. Right. Yeah, there are joints

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Speaker 1: that you got to get in there. But there's a

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Speaker 1: talent to getting into that joint versus like me where

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Speaker 1: I'm just like gett. It's just like hack and hack

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Speaker 1: and hack, and you can see it kind of in

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Speaker 1: the bones and the rest of everything where it's just

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Speaker 1: like get and then you like finally tear it off,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like, so I wonder if

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Speaker 1: that's kind of what they're referring to. Is like, even

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Speaker 1: if it's not like pretty, it's still Yeah, it's like

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Speaker 1: somebody just took a saw to it through that portion

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Speaker 1: of the I'm gonna start cutting out my chickens anyway sauce,

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Speaker 1: so okay, but never like a chicken is the same again.

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Speaker 1: But I yeah, I guess I just keep having a

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Speaker 1: hard time because when you say, you know, like upper chest,

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Speaker 1: it's like, well, is that from the waist up? Is

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Speaker 1: that from the like know what? Yeah? Like that first body,

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming it's like just under the like from like

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Speaker 1: the nipple area. Yeah, I'm assuming, like like from the

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Speaker 1: from the top off of the armpits across a straight line.

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Speaker 1: That's a weird place to cut up a body. Yeah

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Speaker 1: it is, Yeah, because you you know, on either end

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Speaker 1: of the rib cage. You would think you would drop

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Speaker 1: the arms off and not do that, but apparently, you know,

246
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Speaker 1: you cut the head off, keep the clavigal through the

247
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Speaker 1: rib cage, all the ribs right, and then sorry, sorry,

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Speaker 1: I just it helps me to be able to picture

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Speaker 1: these things a little bit or as gruesome as it is.

250
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Speaker 1: But unfortunately, but we don't know, unfortunately or fortunately, depending

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Speaker 1: on the point of probably fortunately, there are no photographs

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Speaker 1: surviving of the body. I know the bodies were photographed

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Speaker 1: and they're reassembled state. Yeah, grizzly as hell, but yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: so sorry I interrupted you. When we were talking about

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Speaker 1: the surgeon foul. He remembered that the arm had existed,

256
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Speaker 1: and he remembered that, and so they made that connection.

257
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Speaker 1: They figured, okay, we've got a sicko on her hands here.

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Speaker 1: And then and then an enterprising newspaper reporter whose name

259
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Speaker 1: is lost to the ages apparently, but he got himself

260
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Speaker 1: a dog and starting out at the at at the

261
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Speaker 1: new Police building, sniffed around the neighborhood and they managed

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Speaker 1: to find a severed leg, left leg, buried not too

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Speaker 1: far from the New Scotland Yard building. Okay, so this

264
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Speaker 1: is weird because this is the only one that we

265
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Speaker 1: know of it was actually buried. Yeah, I know, and so,

266
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Speaker 1: and I don't know why that is. You know, it

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Speaker 1: might have been if it was like on a construction

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Speaker 1: set or something. It just got accidentally buried. Because it

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Speaker 1: sounds like our killer was, you know, not asin tossing

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Speaker 1: parts as you walk down the streets, kind of like

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Speaker 1: you do when you've got the bucket of chicken wings

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Speaker 1: and you're going on him and then just throw the

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Speaker 1: bone and keep going. Okay, I made a chicken reference,

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00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,320
Speaker 1: and it was appropriate that that's exactly what he's doing.

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Speaker 1: He's walking down the street. I don't need this leg. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the discreet way to disposed of the body, just like

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Speaker 1: nobody's looking to flick, you know, and see people do

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Speaker 1: it with gum all the time, cigarettes whatever. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: we are not inferring the dead women. Yeah, I'm saying

280
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Speaker 1: it was done yeah, similar to Yeah, so anyway, an

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Speaker 1: interesting way to get rid of a body. I would

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Speaker 1: rather just get rid of in one fell swoop. But

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Speaker 1: maybe this guy was a little constrained. I don't know. Okay, So,

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Speaker 1: so it's a woman's body. The figure out. Yeah, data Sherman.

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Speaker 1: There was an inquest and I'm not sure if this

286
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Speaker 1: was before or after the leg had been found, but

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Speaker 1: it was absolutely at the arm of the tour so

288
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Speaker 1: that was found. The conclusion was it wasn't it was

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Speaker 1: a woman's body, and that she was around four years old,

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Speaker 1: well nourished quote unquote. I don't know what that means.

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Speaker 1: She was like, you know, obeseir That just meant she

292
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Speaker 1: was in good health general, wasn't I was going to say,

293
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Speaker 1: wasn't the like late eighteen hundreds in London kind of

294
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Speaker 1: a time of Yeah, so the fact that she was

295
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,880
Speaker 1: just was eating fine, Yeah, it was had a normal

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Speaker 1: probably body, Yeah, that could be exactly be it what else?

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Speaker 1: She was white, she had dark hair um and the

298
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Speaker 1: body had had been dead about six to eight weeks

299
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Speaker 1: when it was found, so fairly fresh corps but not

300
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Speaker 1: quite as fresh as I won't anyway. The internal organs

301
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,120
Speaker 1: were all in good shape, exceptable left lung, which had pleurrosy,

302
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Speaker 1: which is just that's an inflammation of the not easily

303
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 1: a life threatening condition. Was is no longer isn't the

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00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,200
Speaker 1: plerosis is the like actual thing you have plerosis? Well,

305
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,080
Speaker 1: it's yeah, but it's a swelling of the lining of

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Speaker 1: your lungs, so it causes shortness of breath. But she

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Speaker 1: only had it one So that's what I'm saying. I

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Speaker 1: don't think it would have been the cause of her death.

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Speaker 1: Not probably not. Some people have speculated that that that

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Speaker 1: is why she died. I kind of doubt it. I

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Speaker 1: don't think the prosy killed her. Yeah, I think some

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00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,880
Speaker 1: dude killed her. I was just going to say, though,

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Speaker 1: that it can it totally happen. I think it can't kill,

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Speaker 1: but in this, in this particular instance, I kind of

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Speaker 1: doubt it. Oh, one last thing, the uterus had been removed,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, they determined I don't know how they determined

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00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,440
Speaker 1: this the victim and not been suffocated to drown. I

318
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,200
Speaker 1: suppose that was due to the state of the lung. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No stab wounds, no bullet holes, no other signs of

320
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Speaker 1: violence except of course we're being chopped up, except for

321
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Speaker 1: there was no head and there was no head right,

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Speaker 1: All of these are like, there's no violence, but there's

323
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Speaker 1: no headset. She could have been shot between the eyes,

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Speaker 1: like you know how her head beat in Yeah, exactly. Um,

325
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,399
Speaker 1: what's probably what happened. Um, yeah, who knows. It was

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Speaker 1: determined that the right arm had been severed by somebody

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Speaker 1: with a knowledge of human anatomy, not just a random

328
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Speaker 1: dude with an axe. There was no word on the

329
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Speaker 1: left leg, but I'm not again, I'm not sure that

330
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Speaker 1: they had been found at the time of the inquest

331
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Speaker 1: or not. They did remark the police. They said that

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Speaker 1: it was sort of a surgical skill kind of thing,

333
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,720
Speaker 1: but they said that it was not necessarily a surgeon.

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Speaker 1: This might be a case of kind of covering for

335
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,320
Speaker 1: your own said, Oh, it could have been a butcher. Two,

336
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,920
Speaker 1: you know, somebody, somebody skilled in that kind of thing.

337
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:02,359
Speaker 1: And this isn't to mean either profession, but I would

338
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,040
Speaker 1: assume that being a butcher and being a surgeon are

339
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,160
Speaker 1: pretty similar. I mean, it's just about figuring out how

340
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,720
Speaker 1: bodies break down as well. I mean, you know, if

341
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,920
Speaker 1: if we're talking about somebody totally disassembling a body, right,

342
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,600
Speaker 1: a butcher and somebody who's trained to do it on

343
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:23,720
Speaker 1: a human seems like it would be about the same.

344
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 1: I mean, a butcher trains on how to break down

345
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,679
Speaker 1: bodies of a lot of different kinds of animals and

346
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,800
Speaker 1: joints are kind of the same within like most species.

347
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,159
Speaker 1: So I think it's valid. I don't think it's a

348
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 1: covering for their own sort of a thing. I think,

349
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,639
Speaker 1: in fact, it maybe that a butcher might actually be

350
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:47,000
Speaker 1: even better taking a human body apart than acher gets

351
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,760
Speaker 1: a lot more practice, that's for sure, than a surgeon.

352
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:55,920
Speaker 1: Surgeons don't actually disassemble people. They disassembled with the idea

353
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,560
Speaker 1: is to get them back together. Usually that's the point

354
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,679
Speaker 1: that is the idea usually hopefully. Yeah, an early re

355
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,680
Speaker 1: animators what we're talking about here. Yeah, yeah, let's not yea,

356
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,160
Speaker 1: remind me not to get any surgery dudes. Yeah, So

357
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,960
Speaker 1: that was about it. That was kind of a dead

358
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,440
Speaker 1: end for that body. But yeah, but no problem with

359
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,719
Speaker 1: third bodies showed up. So and this one showed up

360
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 1: June nine, So this guy is like, it's three bodies

361
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,680
Speaker 1: in about a year, or I could say it could

362
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,240
Speaker 1: be it could have been a lady killer. Yeah that's

363
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,200
Speaker 1: what you're saying. Yeah, okay, good point. This new body

364
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 1: was found on the south back of the Thames, opposite

365
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,200
Speaker 1: the Tower of London, so I know where that is. Yeah,

366
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,920
Speaker 1: I've been there, We've all been there. Other parts showed

367
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,720
Speaker 1: up later the left leg and thigh turned up the

368
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,239
Speaker 1: same day. Two days later in a different place by

369
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,600
Speaker 1: the way, and then two days later the upper part

370
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,119
Speaker 1: of the torso was found, and the neck and shoulders

371
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,479
Speaker 1: and the liver in three different places. The neck, the shoulder,

372
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,400
Speaker 1: and the livers in three places, that's what you're saying places. Yeah.

373
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,720
Speaker 1: Then the day after that, the leg and foot were found,

374
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,320
Speaker 1: and the left leg and foot were found somewhere else,

375
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,359
Speaker 1: so the feet were apparently still attached. And then after

376
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 1: that the left arm in hand and the lower part

377
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,560
Speaker 1: of the and the right thigh showed up in three

378
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,400
Speaker 1: different places. Wow, the whole body, Yeah, I got pretty close. Yeah.

379
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,480
Speaker 1: And then last of all, the right arm and hand

380
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 1: were found on June Towns. So the course of six days,

381
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 1: this body was littered up and down the river. Yeah.

382
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 1: And I don't know if he dumped it all at once,

383
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 1: you know, That's what I was, just like you actually

384
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 1: going out every day and distributing some more parts around town.

385
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know what was what was the

386
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 1: guy with the purple plastic bag that we talked about. Yeah, yeah, Peter, Yeah,

387
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 1: it's kind of like that, you know, going out every

388
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 1: day with the plastic bags right as it was a

389
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,399
Speaker 1: hacked up body, get in a boat, get in the

390
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,800
Speaker 1: middle of the river, dump it and slowly it makes

391
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,120
Speaker 1: its way to show. Yeah, it just did too well.

392
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 1: And they, you know, would have probably traveled at different

393
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 1: rates because they're different ease and sizes. Yeah, it's just

394
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 1: it's also a question of not just travel, but when

395
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 1: somebody just happens to stumble upon it and actually notice it.

396
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 1: I mean there was a lot of I mean, I'm

397
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,120
Speaker 1: sure the river was fairly filthy and have a lot

398
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:14,959
Speaker 1: of crap floating in it back in those days. So

399
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 1: figurative and literal, yeah, you could easily have have a

400
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,199
Speaker 1: have a you know, a severed foot just float right

401
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 1: past you and you wouldn't even notice it. Yeah. Uh

402
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 1: So if you want to look at the interwebs, you can,

403
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 1: and you really care about where all these different pieces

404
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 1: and parts were found, you can find an information on

405
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:31,919
Speaker 1: the webs. I have it, but I don't want to

406
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 1: borry with all these things that really won't mean much

407
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,679
Speaker 1: to you, so I'm not going to go into that.

408
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 1: But back to back to this whole third body that

409
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,640
Speaker 1: was found. All I could say is just six six

410
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 1: sick right, Yeah, I suppose it's possible somebody needed to

411
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 1: get rid of a body and the most discrete way

412
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,880
Speaker 1: to do it was in pieces. You know, if you're

413
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,120
Speaker 1: in a crowded city like London, walking down the street

414
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,200
Speaker 1: with a corpse or even wrapped in the sheet, throwing

415
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 1: over your shoulder is kind of like indiscreet, right, So

416
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 1: that's not unheard of. The top up a body for

417
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: that reason, it doesn't look good to the jury. Uh, now,

418
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: it really doesn't, although there was actually a case in

419
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 1: Portland where the jury actually did. By the story, believe

420
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 1: it or not, this guy, and I can't remember his name,

421
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,159
Speaker 1: he meets the woman in a bar, takes her back

422
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 1: to his place. His story, he murders her. His story

423
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: was that well they were they were making love and

424
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 1: all that, and then they had an argument. Things got

425
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: out of hand. He went up strangling or he didn't

426
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 1: really mean to. And then the problem was he didn't

427
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 1: have a car, he only had a bicycle. This is Portland,

428
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 1: this is the early sixties. And so he exanguinated her,

429
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: exaguinated her in his bathroom and then cut her body

430
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: up and distributed parts all over the place in in

431
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: in southeast Portland and actually some of them were found

432
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: like very close by where I live. Actually, yeah, and uh,

433
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 1: but then he when he eventually got caught, and he

434
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 1: did get caught. He he was unique in that he

435
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 1: fled the state. And he was the first person and

436
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: maybe the only person to ever be number eleven on

437
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: the FBI's ten most wanted list. And they caught up

438
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: with him in California and brought him back and put

439
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: him on trial, and he told that story to the

440
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: jury said, hey, you know, I know it looks kind

441
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 1: of bad, but really that was just the only way

442
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: to get rid of the body. I'm not a six psychopath.

443
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 1: And the jury actually convicted him, but actually recommended leniency

444
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: to the judge. Yeah, and so he got out after

445
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: about ten years. And guess what he did it again surprise,

446
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 1: But okay, that's what cyclists are like. So back to

447
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: the back to London, away from enough of Portland. In

448
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 1: the previous cases, of course, the head was never found

449
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 1: the same in this one, but some of the body

450
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: was identified as somebody named Elizabeth Jackson who was a

451
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: suspected prostitute from Chelsea. And I don't know how they

452
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: made the idea she must have maybe had a tattoo

453
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: or some sort of distinctive birth mart. If she is

454
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 1: a suspected prostitute, then people are gonna know what she

455
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: looks like unclothed, and she's probably gonna have some not

456
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 1: features like you said, there's a prince a scar or whatever. Yeah,

457
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, And so somehow they identified her and

458
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: she was the only one whoever got identified. Again, the

459
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: Corners investigation, who included whoever parted out the body had

460
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: medical knowledge, and they said again at least an experienced

461
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 1: busher and butcher, but they didn't think a skill level

462
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: was at the level of a medical surgeon. Again, it's

463
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: hard to say, because even a medical surgeon, if he's

464
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: slicing you open with the intent of fixing you and

465
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 1: put patching you back together, he's going to go about

466
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: a certain way. If he's cutting you up because he's

467
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 1: just gonna like cut your body up, then even a

468
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: surgeon isn't necessarily going to be as as delicate and

469
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 1: finesse well, there's no there's no incentive to be clean

470
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: and delicate about yeah, And so it could have been

471
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 1: a surgeon, and I still believe it could have been.

472
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: Damn surgeons. Uh. Yeah, the similarity between this body and

473
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: the previous two was obvious everyone. The surgical technique was identical,

474
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: they said. But although in the case it's Elizabeth Jackson.

475
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 1: The cause of death was still not determined. But at

476
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: least by this time they were fairly sure they had

477
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: a serial killer on their hands. Yeah, yeah, but still

478
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 1: no head. But still no heads at all, So one

479
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 1: would assume that the head was cause of death, right, Yeah,

480
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: that's maybe the head removal was cause of death. Yeah,

481
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 1: or a blow to the head or a shot to

482
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: the head or something. Somehow, it is way more disturbing

483
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: to me to think that like removal of the head

484
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: would have been cause of death then like, you know,

485
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: a bullet to the head or even like a bashing

486
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: to the head, and then after the person had died,

487
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 1: they got caught up. I don't know why that's so much. Yeah,

488
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: I agree with you. I think they're getting shot between

489
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: the eyes is better than having your head chopped off,

490
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 1: you know, slowly, especially slowly chopped off like you know,

491
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: and one of those videos. Okay, next, alright, alright, and

492
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: we come to our last known murder, which took place

493
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,479
Speaker 1: in September eighteen eighty nine, a police constable named William

494
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,719
Speaker 1: Pennett found a torso under a railroad bridge on Pinsion

495
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: Street in Whitechapel. White Chapel. Yeah that's Hamburger place, right, Yeah,

496
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: that's a good point. Uh yeah, Jack's stopping grounds. Um,

497
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: it was different from the other ones, and that no

498
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: other body parts showed up, And I don't know if

499
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: that means that our perpetrator changed his routine app or

500
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: if he distributed him all around like before, but they

501
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: just weren't found for random reasons, which is always possible.

502
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: I mean, it's possible he dumped him all on the

503
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: river and there was just especially especially strong tide that day.

504
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: He wasn't paid, he wasn't checking his tide tables, and

505
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: they all just got flushed out its out. Maybe he

506
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: actually did check his tide table this time. Yeah, maybe

507
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: he did. Yeah yeah yeah. Or maybe they all got

508
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: eaten by the fishes before somebody found them. I mean,

509
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: it's really hard to say. And of course, as always,

510
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: no head was found, no cause of death, and no

511
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: identification of the body. So to sum it up, we've

512
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: got four dismembered bodies, which is kind of a short

513
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: run for a several killer. But on the other hand,

514
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: they may have actually been more. I mean there's plenty

515
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: of you know, if you're a killer, a serial killer.

516
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: The slums of London must have been the happy hunting

517
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 1: grounds when you think about it, because there's so many

518
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: people you could disappear without a trace, and so there

519
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: might have been lots of bodies that he that just

520
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: weren't found. Um. And also there is a possibility that

521
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: there was another killing, which was in Paris, which was

522
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: the Montrouse Torso murder. Have you guys heard of that one? Yeah,

523
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: And there's not much information about that available really frankly.

524
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: All it is is that in remember eighteen eighties six,

525
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: which is a year before, not even a year, like

526
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: half a year before our first body was discovered, a

527
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: woman's tours that was found on the steps of the

528
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: Montrouse church in Paris and uh, missing the head, legs,

529
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: the right arm, left breast and here we go again,

530
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: the uterus. So maybe the same guy, I mean, some people,

531
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: some people think there might be a connection there. I'm

532
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: not entirely sure, but you know, perhaps so maybe his

533
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: career is actually so, maybe he had five deaths. There's

534
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: another guy at one author named I think his arm

535
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 1: Michael Gordon, and wrote a book about this called The

536
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: Tampas Towards the Murders of Victorian london Um. They also

537
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: thought that it was possible that a murder in London

538
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: in nineteen two was related. I'm a little skeptical about

539
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: that one. That's a pretty that's a long spell, you know,

540
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: and so I kind of doubt that one. Thevntreuse one

541
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: in Paris though that maybe because I mean Paris and

542
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: London really aren't that far apart. If it's the timeline

543
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 1: nicely about what maybe six months or so before the

544
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: first London murder. You know. One thing to keep in

545
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: mind that might have been a motivator for whoever committed this,

546
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: this Torso murder in France to maybe want to leave

547
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: France is there was the I'm gonna I know, I'm

548
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: gonna put your pronunciation that the Sino French wars which

549
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: were in Asia, but of course the French aire shuttling soldiers,

550
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,959
Speaker 1: you know, which means the number of men in the

551
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: area are going to be dropping, which means that it's

552
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: more obvious when you're the lurker left behind, which would

553
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: motivate somebody to either eight now want to go to

554
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: war or be realized that they're going to start standing

555
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: out like a sore thumb and motivate them to leave. Now,

556
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that these two were linked, but I

557
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: could see a line between those. I can too, I mean,

558
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: I definitely. Uh, it's it makes you wonder. I mean again,

559
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: Paris and London not far apart. It's entirely possible, and

560
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: there could be other murders out there somewhere else in

561
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: France or over the continent. Uh. Well, we'll talk about

562
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: that later on when we start our our period where

563
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: that part of the podcast where we talk about like,

564
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: you know, you're responsible, little speculation and things like that. Yeah,

565
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: but it does appear that that the same murder may

566
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: have struck before in London in eighteen seventy three and

567
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: maybe eighteen seventy four. Also, so as possible, maybe our

568
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: purpose started his career in London, maybe headed off for

569
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: the continent or somewhere and continue to murder people and

570
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: then eventually came back to London, you know, years later

571
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: in the late eighteen eighties. Is that possible? Maybe? So

572
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: let's go back to let's talk about the eighteen seventy

573
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: three murders, which were also grizzly and disgusting. So September five,

574
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: seventy three, Thames police been found part of the left

575
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: side of a woman's tour so in the mud in

576
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: the Battersea area, which is I'm not sure that's where

577
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: is that? That's a run of the tower kind of area,

578
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: isn't it. Oh? I suddenly cannot think of where it is.

579
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: It's in London. I don't remember exactly where one is

580
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: a big town close enough, right Uh. And also I

581
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: maybe I won't talk that much about the actual location,

582
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: says They don't really mean anything to anybody aside for

583
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: people who live in London, so maybe I won't do that.

584
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: No one but listens to us lives there, so yeah,

585
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: that's a good point. Uh. Same day another policeman found

586
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: the right half of a woman's tour so floating in

587
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: the Thames. Others found some human lungs in a couple

588
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: of different places. Uh. Next day a woman's face and

589
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: scalp were found. I know, no skull, just to face

590
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: in the scalp. They've been peeled off. And then two

591
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: days later a right thigh showed up in a right

592
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: shoulder and part of an arm. So this is very

593
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: similar to what we've just been talking about in terms

594
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: of showing up parts and there was no pun intended

595
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: in that, but in parts in different areas. Uh, yeah,

596
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: said said, what's different about it as the face and scalp,

597
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: you know, showing up to no skull, though no skull

598
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: was never found. Police the body parts. First of all,

599
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: we're all brought together somewhere police lab or something, and

600
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: they put together like some sort of metal framework and

601
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: reassembled the body on it. Yeah, and apparently pictures were taken,

602
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: but I've never seen anything. I don't really want to

603
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: sounds hideous. The police surgeon determined the victim was a

604
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: warm and about forty years old, dark hair, short dark hair,

605
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: burnt scarring or left breast. Cause of death Keeter Chrman

606
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: was most likely a blow to the head in this case.

607
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: So I'm thinking and presuming that there was maybe some

608
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: sort of contusion mark on the scalp, because they still

609
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: had that. So maybe that or like we've been talking

610
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: about before, the only part they really didn't get that

611
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 1: didn't appear to have any wound on it other than

612
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: hacking it up. Yeah, was the skull, well, was the skull?

613
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: I mean you still? I mean someboways said blow to

614
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: the head, versus you have said some sort of brain injury,

615
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: whether it's a bullet or a baseball bat or or unknown. Yeah,

616
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: but again that's not totally proven, but that's you know,

617
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: close to say. Ever came with most of these. Now

618
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: the face, the face and scalp that was stretched over

619
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: a butcher's blood right now, I know, apparently to make

620
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: it a little more identifiable, I'm not sure. And the

621
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: word got out that if you were missing a loved

622
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: one you should come on down to the police station.

623
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: There was no Netflix at the time, I know, so

624
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: what's that. There's your entertainment, I guess, but apparently a

625
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: lot of people did. You could go down there if

626
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: you wanted to and have a look at this hideous

627
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: face stretched over the butcher block. Yeah, and uh yeah,

628
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: if you're squirming a little bit right now out there, listeners,

629
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: I'd like to remind you this is Halloween months and

630
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: we did promise you tales of the macabre, and that

631
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: doesn't get much more of a cobb than this one, right,

632
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: really really doesn't. There was one guy showed up and

633
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: looked at the face and thought it might be his

634
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: daughter who was missing, although he said that she didn't

635
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: have a scar on her left breast, so maybe not.

636
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: And I really don't know how recognizable your face would

637
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: be without a skull underneath it to give it its

638
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: normal shape. I have no idea. I don't think very recognizable. Yeah,

639
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: and it would be just like those movies you see

640
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: where the bad guy peels off the mask to reveal

641
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: who he is, and he throws the mask on the

642
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: table and it's all wrinkly and no tension left to it.

643
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it's exactly what it would probably be. Yeah,

644
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: I would agree with that, Yeah, yeah, But I imagine

645
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: how weird, how oft it would be to go down

646
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: there and see your daughter's face, you know, right? Yeah? Yeah,

647
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: So we can move on, okay, all right, okay. Meantime,

648
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: some other body parts were showing up in the area

649
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: of London Bridge. They found two lower legs, part of

650
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: the right arm, and then left foot, which, of course

651
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: we're added to the reassembled body on the mettle of framework.

652
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: And eventually the police had everything accept the hands and

653
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: the skull. Yeah uh. And of course the victim was

654
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: never identified. Cause of death never dependitively found, but probably

655
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: a blow to the head. And again it was determined

656
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: that the killer had some surgical skill. Sounds a lot

657
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: like our guide, doesn't it. Uh. And then that in

658
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: June eight seventy four, another torso was found in the Thames,

659
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: uh near Putney wherever that is Putney in London. Okay,

660
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: that's close enough. The body in this case was a woman,

661
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 1: once again missing the head, arms, and feet. The other

662
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: body parts never showed up, and the victim was never

663
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 1: identified as usual, head never showed up. It's a little

664
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 1: different from the eighteen seventy three murdering that the parts

665
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: didn't show up. But other than that, you know, I

666
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: don't know. There's pretty similar surgical skill, just remembering all

667
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: that stuff. And again, just like in some of the

668
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: other cases, maybe they were put out there, you know,

669
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: at a certain time high tide and the tide flushed

670
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: about to see. Who knows. There's a lot of similarity

671
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: between these killings and the ones that happened in eighteen

672
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: eighty seven and eighty nine, I think anyway, not to

673
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: mention the Paris one um, I think maybe our killer

674
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 1: took a break, but that's hard to imagine. I mean,

675
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 1: it could be that maybe he was in prison it

676
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 1: maybe perhaps he got married and just tried to reform

677
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: himself and then along came to divorce or something and

678
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: he decided to ask for it. Could it be he

679
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 1: just went off to the continent, went on the killing spreed,

680
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: like I kind of mentioned before, And it's always possible.

681
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it would be impossible to search all of

682
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: the records. Oh yeah, across Europe. I mean, especially like

683
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: if you went someplace like um, like Russia or China

684
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: or one of those giant countries, you know, especially if

685
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: you went to a small town, went to a colony

686
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: and then you know, like a British colony and then left,

687
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: and yeah, it be impossible. It would be well it's

688
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: it's possible, but the records not by us, so hell now,

689
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: but maybe somebody could do it. I've also wondered if

690
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: maybe the killer was in the army or the Foreign service. Um,

691
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: maybe you got shipped out to some British colonial possession

692
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: like in Africa or you know, India, somewhere like that.

693
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: And while he was there, we were just talking about yeah, yeah,

694
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: like I said, like apply kept cut on applying his trade,

695
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: and there's some parts of the world where stuff like

696
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: that it probably would attract less notice than it would

697
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: in downtown London. Yeah. Well, there's parts of the world

698
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: where when you throw those bits and pieces of a

699
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: corpse around, the local animal population takes it out up.

700
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know, it might be the earlier eighteen

701
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: seventy three or four killings were carried out by somebody

702
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: difference than our our London Torso killer. I don't know.

703
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: I think the similarities are just too much to ignore

704
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: between those eighteen seventy three killings and the late eighties

705
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,479
Speaker 1: ones myself. But again, on the other other hand, maybe

706
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: the eighteen eighty eight killer was inspired by the eighteen

707
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: seventy three killer. Yeah, I don't know. It's always possible.

708
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: It is possible. I mean, it's not like there's only

709
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: a handful of people out there with surgical skill. There's

710
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: probably plenty of people that had the skill to do

711
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: this guy. Yeah, chers speculation. I don't know. I I

712
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: think it was probably the same guy. I don't know.

713
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: It's quite the break, But like we said, I mean,

714
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,959
Speaker 1: they could have gone somewhere, could have been off having

715
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: fun somewhere else, you know, so that's kind of what

716
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: I'm thinking. So unfortunately for this, this particular one, they

717
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: it's unlike Jack the ripperd no suspects were ever identified

718
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: at all. They never even had a clue as that

719
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 1: who could possibly have done this? Uh, And so that

720
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: makes our that makes sure it's kind of a thin

721
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: theories section because we don't have any actual human beings

722
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 1: that we could talk about the likelihood of them being

723
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: the killer. But nonetheless, there are some interesting theories out

724
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: there about this. But before we get into the series,

725
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: let's take a break watching kitten videos, competing in a

726
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: solitaire tournament, working on your coloring book, writing your true

727
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: romance novel, twiddling one thumb at a time. These are

728
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: all options. Is fulfilling your time over the next week

729
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: until our next episode comes out? Because you guys complain

730
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 1: about that a lot. Do you want something else to do?

731
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 1: Check out this podcast. It's true crime. It's called Unsolved

732
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: Murders True Crime Stories, and it's a great twist on

733
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 1: true crime and cold cases. Unlike us, they have a

734
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: staff of screenwriters and an ensemble of voice actors and

735
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: a talented digital production team to work on every single episode.

736
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: So you know, it's going to be great. It contains

737
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: dramatized scenes that bring cold cases to life, alongside the

738
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: hosts analysis of each case, which sounds pretty cool and

739
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: we should probably think about doing that. At the end

740
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: of each case, the hosts tell you who they believe

741
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: committed the crime, similar to us, which I know is

742
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: something that you guys all really really like. They've covered

743
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: cases like the Black Dahlia, Joan Robinson Hill Murder, and

744
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 1: even the Zodiac. So go ahead and check them out.

745
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: They come out every Tuesday, so you know, nice bounce

746
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 1: to the week. You can find them on Apple podcast,

747
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: tune In, Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play, or pretty much anywhere else.

748
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: You can check them out on podcast as well. That's

749
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: podcast p A r C a st dot com slash Unsolved.

750
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: So that's podcast with an R P A r C

751
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 1: a st dot com slash Unsolved Because waiting is kind

752
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: of like getting punched in the eye, and we're back,

753
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: all right our first series. Of course, a lot of

754
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: people thought this guy must be or might be at

755
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: least Jack the Ripper. Of course, a lot about the

756
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: time the second body showed up, Jack the Ripper had

757
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 1: just begun his big killing spree, because what's his first

758
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: killing that we know of for sure was August thirty one. Uh,

759
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 1: and that's like, what do they call those? The five

760
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: canonical five took place in a very short period. Yeah,

761
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: so there was obviously speculation about Jack being the killer.

762
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: The police said there was no connection. I'm assuming because

763
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: the details of the killing were so much different. Can

764
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: you just sorry for those of us who aren't crazy,

765
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: can you just quickly summarize what those differences were. No dismemberment.

766
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: They were killed in semi public spaces, like in an

767
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: alley just off of a street where there's traffic. The

768
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: bodies were dumped because Jack apparently I think he got

769
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: interrupted on one maybe two. But there were ones where

770
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: the body was just found and it was cut up

771
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: and like an organ or two had been removed, like

772
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: the uterus again for some reason. But the bodies were

773
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: not drug away or hacked up like the ms. Were

774
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: very different in that regard. Jack appeared to just leave

775
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: them where they lie pretty much. Yeah. And one of

776
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,879
Speaker 1: the other things that was that was probably different too.

777
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: It's just the spacing between the killings. Because Jack's the

778
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: canonical five. Absolutely Porsure confirmed Jack the Ripper murders took

779
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: place between August thirty one and November nine, which is

780
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: seventy one days, for an average of about two weeks

781
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: between murders, whereas a Torso killing is average about seven

782
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: months in between murders. And uh, well and so of

783
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: torsos showing up, well, that's true too, you know. Uh

784
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: And this is I think possibly the reason that jack

785
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 1: At wanted to be so much more famous than the

786
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: Tamas Torso killer, which is killing every two weeks. It

787
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: really keeps keeps your story in the headlines. It's easy

788
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: for people to forget that there was a body or

789
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: a series of body parts found on the bank of

790
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: the river. Yeah, years by two years, a year and

791
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: a half, six or nine. It's also scarier when you're

792
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: just like when it's such a public m o. You know,

793
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: when you're like, I'm just walking down the street and

794
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: literally any of these people could just slash out at

795
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: me and try to kill me or actually do kill me,

796
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: And you know, that's way scarier than like, well, I

797
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: don't know, there's no heads on those bodies. They don't

798
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: there's not even you know, a personage that you can

799
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: attach to that body. It's just a unfortunate Well yeah,

800
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: it's like not even human at that point, I guess. So, yeah,

801
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: because I have a head, she does not have a head.

802
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: She does not have a head. I'm alive, she's not.

803
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: We're different. But I guess that's also not to say

804
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: that I would completely discount the Jack the Ripper theory

805
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: in that, you know, it's certainly possible to me that

806
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: those were just the ones that Jack got caught or

807
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: interrupted on, or even that that was his part of

808
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: his escalation. I don't know. I mean, trying to step

809
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: up the pace and it was too fast. Yeah, maybe,

810
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, the hard part is is

811
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: that with the Jack the Ripper case, it's believed that

812
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: he had encounters with these women before because they were

813
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: known prostitutes. And yet with these women the Torso murders,

814
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: there's no nobody knows who they are, so we can't

815
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: draw that connection. So therefore, to me, it like it

816
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: opens the floodgates for people. And I don't know. Yeah,

817
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,240
Speaker 1: I don't want. I don't think it's Jack for that reason,

818
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 1: just because of the rate. I don't I would agree,

819
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: I don't think it is, but I don't think that

820
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: it's a totally, wildly implausible theory, and I think it's

821
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: one worth entertaining. It's definitely a question worth asking. Yeah,

822
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: I think that my feeling about Jack is that Jack

823
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: was a man on a mission. He really, he really

824
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: was killing a lot of people left and right. No,

825
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: I don't know why. Boys Our Torso killer was a

826
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: little more methodical, littlethodical. Yeah, and he played games with

827
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: the public and with the police. I mean putting put

828
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: putting all the parts around for everybody to find on

829
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: public display like that. He was playing games like kind

830
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: of like leaving pieces of a jigsaw puzzle scattered around

831
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: the town for people to find. Enough. Yeah, Jack didn't

832
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 1: really do that. So a lot of differences. But although

833
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: Jack Waite, Jack did mail some well supposedly mailed like

834
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: a liver or something to somebody, remember that was last Victims. Yeah,

835
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 1: but again still that's that's kind of an outlier in

836
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: his case. I don't think it links it to this one. Yeah,

837
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 1: And that was not one of the canatical five to right.

838
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: It could have been one of the it has been.

839
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,919
Speaker 1: I don't want to say that with any certainty, Joe,

840
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,479
Speaker 1: because it's been so long since I've read about Jack

841
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: the Ripper, and you know, the Ripper fans out there

842
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: that are listening to just if we get it wrong,

843
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: please don't cut me up. Okay, So probably not Jack, Okay, Yeah,

844
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: so let's say not. Jack could have been another serial killer.

845
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: And frankly, you know, obviously it was another serial killer.

846
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: And you know, who knows. Maybe this guy was Jack's inspiration.

847
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: Maybe Jack was reading the papers about this guy and

848
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: the body parts and everything of that. You know, maybe

849
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 1: I'll give that a try, and he liked it a lot. Yeah. Yeah,

850
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: in a big town like London, you'd think they'd be

851
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: at least one or two circulars at work at any

852
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: given time, even back in those days, right, yeah, especially

853
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: back in those days. Yeah, there was no TV or anything,

854
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: and yeah, people are a little less squeaming back in

855
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: those days too, you know. I mean, you know, you

856
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 1: went out and got your dinner at the Butcher's, probably

857
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: watched and kill something right in front of you and

858
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: gout it. That actually makes me wonder about the Again

859
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 1: we're going back to this, but the whole conversation about

860
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: the level of expertise that the bodies were dissected with.

861
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: If you go down and you buy a lego lamb

862
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: or a hind quarters of an animal, and then you

863
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,919
Speaker 1: have to call you butcher it on your own at home,

864
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: or you're just used to doing that kind of stuff

865
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: to prep your meals. Again, there becomes a certain level

866
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 1: of familiarity. Yeah, I mean there were a lot of people,

867
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: not just butchers. I mean you know people who hunters,

868
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: for example, they kind of rather good at at skinning

869
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: and dressing out you know, animals that they've called. You know,

870
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,439
Speaker 1: you're cooking some house, you're probably cutting up the meat

871
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: to a degree. I mean, there's all kinds of occupations. Yeah.

872
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: Podcast hosts, Oh good point. Have I shown you my knife?

873
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:24,720
Speaker 1: That okay knife? Yeah, I'm a piano wire guy myself.

874
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: You don't need to worry about me, devon. Yeah. So yeah,

875
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: probably another serial killer, right, but but who was the killer? Again?

876
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,919
Speaker 1: Police never came anywhere you're naming a suspect, and that

877
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,399
Speaker 1: that's I'm thinking that might be another reason we got

878
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: that just Jack the Ripper mystery here, which is why

879
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 1: it is Jack so much more famous. The police never

880
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: came anywhere close to naming anybody as a suspect. Nobody

881
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: at all. And in the case of Jack, of course,

882
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: there were some suspects that were out there fairly quickly,

883
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: and the doors that gave people a lot of license

884
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: to sit around the pub speculating, well, did you know,

885
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: did John Doe over here? Was he really the killer?

886
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: And there's in this case, there was just nothing much

887
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: to sink your teeth into because he who knows, there's

888
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,760
Speaker 1: no suspects. And so even though obviously it was another

889
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: serial killer, we'll never know who the hell it was.

890
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: But here, you know, there's a few possible theories just

891
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: to you know, why this person would do it. It

892
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: could have it could have been maybe some John basically

893
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: a guy who frequents prostitutes and who decided that, you know, well,

894
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: you know, maybe this particular girl is like, you know,

895
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: got the goods on me or whatever. He picked something

896
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,399
Speaker 1: up and from his encounters with her, oh, maybe that's

897
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: it too. He was feeling a little baneful about the

898
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: whole thing. But I didn't know which one it was.

899
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 1: It could have been that or maybe somebody threatening with

900
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 1: a little blackmail. Maybe it was actually somebody fairly well

901
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,439
Speaker 1: to do, and he decided to, you know, just kill

902
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: her rather than get out. Yeah, Um, you know, and

903
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: then you know, perhaps there was one person he killed

904
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: who was trying to blackmail and and the other ones

905
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 1: were kind of loose ends, people who knew about his

906
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: association with this person. Um, you know, it would be

907
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: a great reason to leave, cut off the heads and

908
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 1: make sure they never turn up, because if if they

909
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: identify that person, then then you could easily become a

910
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: suspect because you're a known associate. Ever, so prostitutes customers

911
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: just like Jack, Perhaps somebody patronized prostitutes. Another theory that's

912
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 1: possibly out there is botched abortions. This one doesn't This

913
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: one does not work for me in this particular. I

914
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 1: mean explain certain things like like the unvers is being

915
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: missing in at least a few cases. But I have

916
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: a problem with theory too, which is that if you're

917
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,439
Speaker 1: an abortionist and you're trying to cover up your little

918
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: medical misadventure, well this guy picked a rather great way

919
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: to go about it, right, Yeah, so I think we

920
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: can scratch There was the spot the botched abortion thing.

921
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: There was One of the speculations in the press was

922
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: that it was kind of a medical school prank. Yeah,

923
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: so these were possibly medical school cadavers which had been

924
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: disposed of after dissection, and so I guess I wouldn't

925
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: say there needs to be a prank involved there necessarily.

926
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems to me that sometimes, you know,

927
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 1: that was a thing, right that there were medical schools

928
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: you like, you did the dissections, and there should have

929
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: been an official way to dispose of said bodies. But

930
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 1: not always, especially if you're like hair situation, you're trying

931
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: to save some money, you know, yeah, I mean, I

932
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 1: you know, well, you probably hear some of the stories

933
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: about the way they acquired corpses to dissect back. Some

934
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: of them are pretty pretty maccabbin of themselves. They actually

935
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: people would actually go out and steal fresh bodies out

936
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 1: of graveyards and taking the medical schools and sell them,

937
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: you know, and that would be sort of a wink

938
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: weight nudge nudge. The guys at the medical schools knew

939
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: had a pretty good idea where they were coming from.

940
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: So maybe their disposal guy was trying to save I mean,

941
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: you know it's proba, yeah, because yeah, that's the thing is, uh,

942
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 1: you got this creepy hunchback that's delivering the corpses to you,

943
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 1: and maybe you gonna like canut, Igor, would you mind

944
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 1: getting word of the room mainsforce too? And he's like

945
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: sure for a few bucks, you know, because I'm gonna

946
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: have to bribe an undertake or to to basically stuff

947
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: him into a coffin with some other body or something

948
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: like that. And then and then Igor thinks, hey, why

949
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 1: not pocket the money and just toss the stuff in

950
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: the river. Maybe maybe the furnace was broke down. Yeah,

951
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, if that's an easy way, you know,

952
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: maybe that would explain why the bodies were cut into pieces,

953
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 1: was to throw it into a furnace. Today, well, if

954
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: they were cadavers, they could have been used to, you know,

955
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: practice the section in the whole process of teaching anatomy, right, yeah,

956
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: kind of go up that way. It seems out of character,

957
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: out of line, what with what I know of that

958
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: even in that day and age medical students would be doing.

959
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: It would seem they it would seem like you would

960
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,919
Speaker 1: maybe like be totally dissecting, like opening up the chest

961
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: cavity and checking out the organs and stuff like that.

962
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: But these bodies were treated more like crabs after you've

963
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,240
Speaker 1: cooked him and you're going to eat just broken and chunks.

964
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 1: Then what a medical set of medical students would do

965
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: unless they really really sucked, well they could it could

966
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 1: have been that. Yeah, maybe they were teaching how to

967
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 1: do amputations. Yeah they had an amputation has never been

968
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: a real practice, So I don't know about that one. Yeah,

969
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: toy students, the amputation one oh one, get yourselves out.

970
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: So you know, it could have been an eager just

971
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: had a twisted sense of humor. Um. And again, as

972
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: I said that, the one of time suggested that it

973
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 1: might have been a medical school prank, and apparently people

974
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: had a different kind of sense of humor back in

975
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: those days. But there's another twist on it, which was

976
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: that maybe Igor was our hunchback, was having a little

977
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: way to dispute with his employers, and this is this

978
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 1: way of sending a message to them, you know, um,

979
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 1: the message being basically, hey, you know, you guys kind

980
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: of like need me to keep my mouth shut because

981
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: I kind of got the goods in using this blackmail. Again,

982
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 1: could have been that could have been just you know,

983
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: and then you know they said, hey, Eger, we're really

984
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: really sorry, here's some extra cash for you know. And

985
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: then next time thing, Igor gets his nose how to

986
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,879
Speaker 1: joint happens. Again, I don't know. I think that's as

987
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: I mean, it's silly, kind of a stres. You didn't

988
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:12,479
Speaker 1: come up with it, so I feel comfortable saying that silly. Yeah, well,

989
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: actually I came up with part of it. I did.

990
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 1: You're not the London Times though, Yeah, No, the medical

991
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,879
Speaker 1: school prank is they came up with, Yeah, you are

992
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 1: having a way to speed. I did kind of come

993
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: up with that one myself. But yeah, I don't know,

994
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: It's just it doesn't quite make sense because again it's

995
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 1: like Steve was saying, the it's not really the way

996
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: they dissect bodies, or at least not in those days.

997
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 1: I don't think. So. Yeah, alright, I could picture another

998
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 1: game between medical students. They they finished dissecting this corpse

999
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: and uh and at the end of it all the

1000
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: the professor says, Okay, you guys, now we gotta get

1001
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,399
Speaker 1: rid of this body. So before you leave the class today,

1002
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 1: I want everybody to take one piece and throw it

1003
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 1: in the garbage. You know, I'm showing your way home,

1004
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: don't think so. Okay, that's a little weak too, So

1005
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's hard to say I'm thinking Process

1006
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: to its customer who for whatever reason was angry at prostitutes,

1007
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: or it could have been somebody who's never frequented a

1008
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: prostitute at all, maybe just to despise Process morally reasons

1009
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: did what they did. I mean, I don't know that

1010
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 1: there needs to be a reason to go to this

1011
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 1: level of cutting bodies up and then throwing those parts

1012
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: in the river. You've got to have some strong motivation,

1013
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 1: because there's not. But I I kind of think otherwise.

1014
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that if we're saying, you know,

1015
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: his motivation was he was he was angry at something,

1016
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, blah blah, I would argue that this is

1017
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: like too far. Right. The Jack the Ripper reaction is like, yeah,

1018
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 1: that's a dude who was automission and was like piste

1019
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: off at some people for whatever reason. Right, this is like,

1020
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: this is like a somebody whose brain works differently than

1021
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 1: the rest of the people. Is in my mind, it's

1022
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 1: just somebody who's just like an insane person. Not I

1023
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 1: don't even know what the correct term would be for that,

1024
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: but you know, not all I know, I don't think

1025
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: that's the right one. There's one, but it doesn't really

1026
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:16,839
Speaker 1: matter some sort of just like crazy insane person who

1027
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 1: just this is like a pathological urge for them to

1028
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,919
Speaker 1: be killing and cutting up because it just seems too yeah,

1029
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: cool headed, toolheaded. Obviously, this guy seems to be at

1030
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: least someone intelligent and you know, and clever enough to

1031
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,839
Speaker 1: actually get away with this, I mean totally get away

1032
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,879
Speaker 1: with him. When we think about it. He's not just

1033
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: dumping one body. He's dumping body parts all over the place.

1034
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 1: And you have what it being witnessed doing this by everybody.

1035
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 1: Nobody saw him. Ever, I guess that the guy was

1036
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: good at what he did. Somehow. That makes me think

1037
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: butcher more because if you see the local butcher walking

1038
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: around with you know, pieces of meat wrapped in you know,

1039
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: again wrapped in either paper or cloth, because they did

1040
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 1: wrap things in cloth and twine, you think there's a

1041
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:04,919
Speaker 1: you hamhock, you know. And then over the edge local

1042
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 1: rug sales we know, there goes Tom and then the

1043
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 1: rug over his shoulder that was selling rugs down by

1044
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 1: the river. But I mean that would to me, would

1045
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 1: speak more to something like that. I don't know. So,

1046
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 1: you know the one thing that I've I've been wondering

1047
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: about is we've been going through. This is the state

1048
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: of the bodies is such that they were all in

1049
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: the water for at least several weeks before they were found. Well,

1050
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 1: not necessarily, Okay, not necessarily because the body like like

1051
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: the bodies were somewhat old, But as far as having

1052
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: how long they have been in the water, it's kind

1053
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: of hard to tell. Me. I got the impression that

1054
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 1: they've been in the water for at least some extended

1055
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 1: amount of time. But where I'm going with this is

1056
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 1: that some of the damage or the dissection of the

1057
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 1: bodies that was done may not have actually been done

1058
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: by a person. I mean, the Thames is a very

1059
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: busy river even at that time. I mean there's not

1060
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: power boats, but there are gonna be paddle wheel boats,

1061
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: you know, steam power is a thing. At this point,

1062
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: coal burning boats are around. So it's possible that while

1063
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: not all of the cutting of the bodies was done,

1064
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: I mean, they could have been run over by ships

1065
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 1: and boats like that multiple times and that could have

1066
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: helped some of this along. So I don't I guess

1067
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 1: I just would say I would just go back to

1068
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: the corners saying like these were precise dissections. I don't.

1069
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: That doesn't really happen. When I don't, I don't know

1070
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 1: how because we can't see any imagery. I'm gonna again

1071
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 1: question how true that statement is. Helped correct that statement

1072
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: is if it's if it's a piece of a body,

1073
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 1: let's just say it's an arm, it's been severed, has

1074
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,280
Speaker 1: been floating in the river or sitting on the bank

1075
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:57,720
Speaker 1: for a week or two. It's not in good condition anymore.

1076
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: But they did did say there were no signs of violence.

1077
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 1: So if something if a body has been torn apart

1078
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 1: because it's been run over by a boat, there's gonna

1079
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: be other lacerations, ands and stuff like that. So you

1080
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,840
Speaker 1: would assume, yeah, that there would be some signs of

1081
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 1: some kind of violent trauma to the body. Well, there

1082
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: was those paddle wheelers that were going around with razor

1083
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: blades on the tips of each one, and that that

1084
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:25,439
Speaker 1: could have been it. Yeah, the scalpel model, it didn't

1085
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 1: pass very long, didn't know, just enough to cut up

1086
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: about five bodies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was discourage homeless

1087
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: people from trying to get a free ride. Those free riders,

1088
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: you know, pay up your Yeah, yeah, I don't think so,

1089
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know how long they were in

1090
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 1: the river to be, to tell you the truth, because

1091
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: I don't know that there are a lot of signs

1092
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 1: that they've been nibbled on with the fishes either. I mean, yeah,

1093
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 1: it's hard to say. If you kept him around on

1094
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: ice for a while and then chopped him up and

1095
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 1: threw him the river, maybe who knows, Maybe it's such

1096
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: a six sicko six sicko that he just chopped him

1097
00:57:58,040 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 1: up and just sort of like kept him around and

1098
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 1: just that his work for a while, you know, for

1099
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 1: for a week or two. We keep going out here.

1100
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I would get off of it,

1101
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 1: but there are people like that, at least in the movies.

1102
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: There are. Of course, there's always possibility that he didn't

1103
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 1: murder any of them. Maybe for some reason they died

1104
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: of natural causes. He decided to part you chop them

1105
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: up and dispose of the body himself for whatever reason.

1106
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: Well this is this is just a spur from your

1107
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:26,479
Speaker 1: ego theory, uh not really even from igor. But yeah,

1108
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: I kind of doubt this. I mean, but you know,

1109
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: some people have speculated that maybe he didn't actually murder them,

1110
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 1: they just chopped them up and got rid of the

1111
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: bodies for for whatever reason. I find it hard to believe.

1112
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: I can't. I don't see why the hell anybody would

1113
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, I don't understand. I I also think

1114
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: the heads would have shown up. Yeah, that's a good point.

1115
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 1: You know, there's no reason to Oh my god, there's

1116
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: no reason to withhold the heads unless you're trying to

1117
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: keep these people from being identified. Yeah, especially since we

1118
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: know that, you know, fingerprints and DNA weren't viable. The

1119
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 1: only way you were really going to be able to

1120
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 1: identify these people was yes, okay, if the whole body

1121
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 1: showed up, which you know obviously didn't happen that often,

1122
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 1: or if a head with a face on it showed well,

1123
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: you know, it could have been that the guy I say,

1124
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: let's say it was prostitutes. He detested prostitutes, and and

1125
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: I didn't like the idea of say this, this prostitute

1126
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: is identified and given a Christian burial, and maybe it's

1127
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 1: just sort of a final insult. He like, with holds

1128
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: your heads so and put your bodies on body parts

1129
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 1: on public display everywhere, kind of this final act of

1130
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 1: disrespect and seeing to she gets buried in an unmarked

1131
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 1: popper's grave instead of being buried in a marked grave,

1132
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: you know, that kind of thing. But I still really

1133
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 1: really doubt that this means that makes as much sense

1134
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 1: as he was doing this just to make shrunken head

1135
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: to Yeah. Yeah, maybe I don't. I don't think this

1136
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 1: is true. I think obviously this guy did kill them,

1137
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: and otherwise he had or maybe he had a remarkable

1138
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: streak of luck and stumbling across people who just happened

1139
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 1: to I you know, yeah, there would have been male bodies,

1140
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: because here that's the key here. Yeah, that's true too.

1141
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 1: Maybe it was a mortician who was an aspiring butcher's yeah,

1142
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: and they just you know, had the dead bodies, and

1143
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: he was like, well, this one won't be missed. It

1144
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: could have been it could have been the ones marked

1145
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 1: for cremation, unclaimed bodies that could have been you know,

1146
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 1: maybe we wanted to save on his fuel bills and

1147
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 1: so instead of cremating them, he just he just like

1148
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 1: emptied up some some ashtrays into an urn and gave

1149
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 1: them to the fence. And dude, we know that's happened

1150
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 1: in recent time. That does happen. I don't know why

1151
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,920
Speaker 1: you wouldn't just like throw full bodies into someone else's casket,

1152
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 1: you know, to to to do a casket or something

1153
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 1: like that. That seems much easier. It seems like the

1154
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 1: way to go. Yeah, I could. Well, that could actually

1155
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 1: explaining a long gaps in between. Though. It could be

1156
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: that just in these these crunch times that you got

1157
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 1: a body to get rid of and you've got you,

1158
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: only you don't have any actual bodies or coffins in

1159
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 1: your funeral home. Then it might be at that particke in. Okay,

1160
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 1: people were dropping like flies at that time in London.

1161
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 1: I don't think there was ever a time where there

1162
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:10,439
Speaker 1: wasn't a body in a box. Well, yeah, that's such

1163
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 1: a thing as competition and stuff like that. It might

1164
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 1: be that, Or there's also those damned open casket funerals.

1165
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: You know, there's those things too. Yeah, and so, but

1166
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: that's a possibility. And all right now we're almost at

1167
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 1: the end here. This is the part where I usually

1168
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 1: blame Choopy Um. However, I recently got to pull out

1169
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 1: a firmly worded email from not other than the Choops

1170
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 1: Dre himself. You guys read the email I'm sure did,

1171
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 1: asking me to cease and desist. Um, he didn't mention lawyers,

1172
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: but that was kind of the unstated subtext. So I'm

1173
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 1: gonna leave Cheapy out of this one. Besides, it's not

1174
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: really cheapis m O? Right? Yeah, alright, so cheapy You're

1175
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 1: off the hook on this one. I don't have a freeing,

1176
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 1: I don't have even a reasonable theory and we can

1177
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 1: who the hell knows I I mean neither. Yeah, so

1178
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 1: it looks like the Torso Killer is Scott free. Al Right. Well, anyway,

1179
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 1: if you have any thoughts about this, you want to

1180
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 1: send us an email. Our email address is Thinking Sideways

1181
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: podcast at gmail dot com. Uh. You can also find

1182
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 1: us on iTunes, where you can, like you know, downloader episodes.

1183
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: You can subscribe, which is be awesome. Uh, leave us

1184
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 1: a rating, leave us a review, preferably good. We like

1185
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 1: that better. You can also find us on Stitcher and

1186
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:27,760
Speaker 1: uh a lot of other streaming services too many the name,

1187
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 1: but there's lots of them out there. Um, and of

1188
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 1: course the same thing. You can leave ratings and reviews

1189
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 1: those places too, so do that. We are on of

1190
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: course Twitter, where we are Thinking Sideways and Devon's out

1191
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 1: there updating and sending out fun tweets all the time,

1192
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 1: right literally constantly? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so constantly every day. Check. Yeah,

1193
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:52,439
Speaker 1: uh where else are Oh? Facebook? I forgot Facebook? Didn't that? Yeah,

1194
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 1: we are on Facebook where we have a page and

1195
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: we also have a group, So don't try to friend us,

1196
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 1: but like our page, join the group kind of almost

1197
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 1: the same as being friends with us. You. If you're

1198
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 1: part of the group, then you can like join in

1199
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 1: conversations and have all sorts of fun times. Yeah. Yeah,

1200
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 1: we're on Reddit. We have a sub reddit our of

1201
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: our very own, and it's quite active, right devon Yeah,

1202
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 1: superci Yeah, all kinds of stuff going on out there.

1203
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:19,920
Speaker 1: And last of all, you can find us on our website,

1204
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 1: which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. Or you can

1205
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 1: also listen to our episodes and you can also buy

1206
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 1: merch inside I don't know, all kinds of cool stuff.

1207
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 1: There's the episode list, which we can update. Yeah, there

1208
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 1: is an episode list out there too, so that way

1209
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 1: if you're wondering. They talk about this trapper, the mat Trapper. Yeah, exactly,

1210
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 1: that's a good one. Rat River. Yeah, I love that name,

1211
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 1: the Matt Trap rat River. Well, you can look on

1212
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 1: the list and find it there. That's about it for

1213
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 1: this week. Happy Halloween mounts everybody. So all I kind

1214
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 1: of say is like, uh, say Anara, Yeah, we'll see

1215
01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: you guys later. I guess go buy candy b