WEBVTT - What We Can Learn From Struggles Past: Hong Kong 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:12.280 Welcome to the Worst Happenings Here Ever, Bastards pod shit. 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.480 I'm Robert evans Um. This is it could Happen here, 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:18.800 a daily podcast about the fact that everything seems to 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:21.319 be falling apart, and wouldn't it be nice if we 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.760 tried to do something better than the stuff that's falling apart? 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.400 That seems like a good idea. Huh do you agree 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:31.760 with me my my panel for today's episode? Yes, I 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:35.560 agree with that general concept. That's Garrison Davis. And who 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:39.599 else is agreeing with me today? That Christopher Wong is? 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:44.680 Is that Christopher Wong mildly agreeing, mildly agreeing, mildly agreeing. Wow, well, 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.000 that's extra disturbing because you you you you're in charge 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:51.320 of today's episode. So in brief, when we did our 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:52.920 first so you know, if you're new to the show, 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:55.120 come back check out the first five episodes of the show. 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:59.279 They're scripted Evergreen kind of layout our philosophy on the 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:01.720 crumbling of society and what to do next. But one 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:04.000 of the questions we had is, Okay, it kind of 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:07.080 seems like one of the only ways potentially forward without 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.640 just accepting that everything's going to keep falling apart is 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.880 some sort of big general strike that forces action on 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.160 you know, things like climate that are are we can't 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:18.480 really wait on anymore. And of course one of the 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:20.000 big questions is, well, all right, you get a bunch 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:21.800 of people to agree to strike, how do you agree 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:23.800 what to do with the strike? How do you agree? 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:25.440 What like the terms are? You know, how do you 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:27.319 how do you put together a list of demands? How 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:29.560 do you get millions of people to agree to a 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.119 list of demands and then fight the government in order 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.600 to institute those demands? Um? And I don't know the 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.319 answer to that question. Um, but there are some people 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.080 in the world right now who did a version of 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:44.120 that in Hong Kong. And today we're going to talk 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.240 with someone who can talk to us about that process 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.560 and hopefully kind of give us some insight both and 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:51.240 how it worked and what didn't work over there, and 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.600 that might inform us on what we might do here 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:59.040 someday in the future. Uh, if you know that, that'd 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:03.520 be nice. Maybe did I get it right? Chris? Yeah, yeah, 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:10.359 this is yeah, that's good enough for that ringing endorsement. Yeah, 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:12.760 you know. Okay, So so to to to work more 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.359 of this out. Um, I've brought in j n who 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.359 is a writer, researcher and organizer with a Laosan collective. 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:23.960 Um he's currently be I said of Los Angeles and Jane, Okay, 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.880 do you do you want to talk a little bit 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.520 about what Lauson is and then also talk a bit 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.959 about how, you know, for people who've sort of forgotten, 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.960 weren't paying attention at the time, how the Hong Kong 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:41.919 protest started. Yeah. Sure, thanks thanks for having me excited 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:44.280 to be here and to talk about this kind of 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:46.920 stuff because I've been wanting to kind of you know, 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.840 talk about this and discuss the way things have gone 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.519 with the protests for a while. Um It's been hard 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.880 to find the time, I guess with our cascading crises 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:00.799 and whatnot. Um, but yeah, so I guess Lao Son. 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:03.400 I'll speak briefly about law Song, since you know, I'm 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:05.480 not speaking on behalf of the collective in this interview, 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.440 but just kind of like, um, talking about how we 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:10.960 started and then everything else after that is is kind 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.760 of just my view of things. UM. So Lawson has 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:19.320 members with kind of like different leftist orientations, um, from 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.880 you know, anarchists to more social democratic um, and you know, 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:24.440 it's been a kind of a lot to work through, 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.560 as you can imagine. But I think it also that 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:32.440 also kind of reflects the necessity of our political condition, um, 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.240 which is that they're really you know, in my view, 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.080 there hasn't really been any internationalist groups that focus on 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:42.600 Hong Kong from those different perspectives um, at least for 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.680 me when I was growing up. Um, most of the 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:47.960 kind of like radical Hong Kong folks that I knew 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.360 would tend to just be uh, you know, we would 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.440 join different we would join other movements and stuff like that. 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:57.840 Like there was never anything that was Hong Kong centered, um. 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:01.880 And I guess stuff in the daspora, uh it's pretty conservative. 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:04.520 You know, the diasporad folks that I grew up with, 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.560 we're we're pretty conservative. So there wasn't that that kind 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:11.720 of avenue for organizing, unlike other kind of Asian dasper 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.400 groups like uh, Philipinos folks have like this kind of 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.880 very long history of radical das board organizing and I 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.440 don't really think Hong Kong has had that ever. So 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:22.919 I think that's why law Son is this kind of 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:27.440 very broad tent, big umbrella type of organ where we 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.400 try where we do kind of collect a lot of 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:33.440 folks who are you know, progressive, left leaning to to 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:38.559 to otherwise. Um And but I I guess our general 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.800 orientation is the kind of neither Washington nor Beijing line 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:46.240 with with varying degrees of general anti statis um in 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.839 the mix. Um And I think, you know, I'm hopeful 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.120 that this is helping to build the foundation for more 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.960 of that in the Hong Kong diaspora and then hopefully 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.159 in the broader Asian dasper as I see it, since 0:04:57.760 --> 0:04:59.680 I think the general divide tends to be kind of 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:02.200 like you know, radical Asian folks will be anti U 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:04.840 s imperiless, which is great, but then specifically do that 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.960 by expressing support for states elsewhere and um, you know 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.760 that can that can take good forms and bad forms 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.480 and whatnot. So um And I guess just really quick, 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.240 we we do both kind of organizing and writing and translation. 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:20.240 Those are kind of the three pillars of the group, 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:22.479 I guess, and the bedrock of our work is really 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:26.080 kind of aiming to create international solidarity with Left US 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.880 around the world to kind of amplify left his voices 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:32.640 in Hong Kong, but then also kind of create nonstate 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:37.719 centered connections across Asia, Southeast Asia and the Pacific. Yeah, 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.520 and how do you I mean, I think one of 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:42.920 the big questions that that keeps coming to me over 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:48.440 and over again is how do you overcome the how 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.599 do you overcome the resistance to internationals? And that's caused 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:53.680 by kind of I don't know, conspiracism may not be 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:55.600 exactly the right way to frame it, but this belief 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:59.440 that you know, your your struggle for liberation is really 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.719 just a c I, A OP or whatever like this 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:06.120 this this, this case of brain worms that keeps that 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.360 I see as a major barrier towards you know, kind 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:12.600 of functional internationalism in a lot of cases, particularly within 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.560 the United States. Um, what are some ways in which 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.920 you you've actually seen some luck in combating that? Yeah, 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:21.280 I mean, that's that's really the million dollar question, I think, 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:23.640 which is, like, you know, I think if we had 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:27.160 figured it out, it wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately, it's 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:31.680 growing problem growing. So in many ways, from one view 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:34.159 could say that it's we haven't been very successful in 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:37.839 combating that. But I think in some you know, some 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:39.880 of the leading groups in that camp you know, the 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:42.800 campus I think are very well funded and they have 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:47.600 very powerful connections. When you say campus, could you explain 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:49.560 that term briefly, because I don't think it's something and 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:51.320 certainly that's when we've talked about on the show, and 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.919 I think a lot of our listeners probably wouldn't be 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:57.559 familiar with that. Yeah. Sure, I mean, I'm sure Chris 0:06:57.600 --> 0:06:59.880 could speak much more about this. I feel like you 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.680 of your expertise is is kind of explaining these very 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:08.120 kind of deep left traditions and whatnot. But I guess 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:12.720 my understanding is is just very generally the campus will UM. 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:16.960 You know, it's like the anti imperialism that UM sees 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:20.640 the US as the kind of number one enemy and 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.400 everything kind of is is you know, they're the primary 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:28.080 contradiction I guess to use some malice terminology UM, and 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.360 that everything must be subordinated to that, to that cause 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:35.080 of like being against the U. S empire UM, And 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:39.520 usually that requires supporting what they see as uh, you know, 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.680 abbreviate as a as actually existing socialism UH states that 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:47.120 kind of use that that are nominally socialists, nominally communist 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:49.600 UM and use all the kind of like imagery and 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:54.200 trappings of that um to kind of like whole maintain 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:58.680 that political identity despite the kind of material reality of 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:04.080 their politics and economy and all that. So um, Yeah, 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:06.680 I can tell more about that later maybe, But I 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.600 think one thing that I've been chatting with a lot 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.920 of my kind of like uh, radical Asian friends, who 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:15.640 are you know, I I am very kind of obviously 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:19.920 against these campus because they are so veriantly against Hong Kong. 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:22.840 But you know, other folks that I've talked to have 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:26.120 have said, you know, they really kind of understand that 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.000 viewpoint in the sunset. It's a very emotional attachment, right. 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.760 It's like folks for you know, folks let's let's say 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:36.600 Vietnamese folks who uh their families were refugees and had 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:40.120 to come to the US because of the Vietnam War, 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:44.080 for example. Then you know when when you're the child 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.720 of refugees and you're like, why the hell am I 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.400 here in America, and then you start to kind of 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.640 like learn about the history and background of what happened, 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:55.959 then it makes sense that you would have this kind 0:08:56.000 --> 0:09:00.680 of very emotional attachment to a s these actually existing 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:04.360 social states UM and those histories and those those radical 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.640 anti imperial histories and whatnot, despite the fact that you know, 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.760 clearly history has shown that they have either betrayed their 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:16.360 own movements or gone down in defeat and whatnot, which, 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:18.640 you know, I think there's two ways to react to that. 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:22.079 One is to kind of continue to cling to the fantasy, 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.720 and then one is to try and figure out what's next. Right, 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.679 It's like, how can we either revive that or continue 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:32.079 that in in the ways that makes sense in this world? Right? 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.120 And so I think, you know, I guess to answer 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:36.920 the initial question, I think it is a little bit 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:41.439 easier to for especially if we're like young, newly radicalized 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:47.119 Asian folks, it's a little bit easier to maintain that fantasy. 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:50.240 And then, you know, I think the way that media, 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:53.360 you know, social media and online media has gone nowadays, 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:57.880 it's like it's becoming distilled into even like the most 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:02.480 simple and understand bowl like nuggets of that, so like 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.000 infographics and stuff like that. So I feel like that 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:10.240 entire ecosystem uh tries to make it so that people 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:12.720 do stay within that fantasy rather than trying to do 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.680 the harder work of like how do we extrapolate this 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.560 or how do we adapt this to our conditions? Now? Yeah, 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:21.240 and I think, you know, I can talk about this 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.719 for a little like a brief amount because I don't 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.280 want to spend Jewish time. Yeah, I'm talking about these people, 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:30.640 but you know, like I think, like like one way 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.319 to look at them is so camp is um is 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.440 a thing from from the Cold War. Right. It's basically like, okay, 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:38.160 you pick you pick one of your like two maybe 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:39.920 three camps. If you come an online movement, it's like, okay, 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.240 you're really with the Soviets or with you with the Americans? Right, 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:44.959 And you know, part part of this happening here is 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.320 it's like that that's a very easy way to look 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:48.920 at the world. And this is this is why it's 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.240 so easy to sort of like condense it in infographics. Right, 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:52.719 It's like there's two sides. One of them is good, 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:55.760 one of them bad. But you know, this is like 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:57.960 the thing that's that's sort of the problem here is 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:01.920 that the Cold War is over, like it's done. It's 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.920 it's it's gone, right, the communist countries are gone. None 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:06.560 of the stuff, none of the stuff exists anymore. And 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:10.160 so you know, and it's it's very easy particular, particularly 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.080 for for the diaspor to sort of get stuck, suck 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:14.800 like back into the politics where well, okay, well well 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:16.160 no, no no, no, hold on, there's a new Cold War. 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:18.800 The Cold War is happening again. It's all the same stuff, 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:20.040 and you can just sort of like tack all the 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.920 same symbols back on. But you know, it leads you 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:26.680 to down these pasts where you know, and this is 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:28.520 like like something Janna I think is dealt with a lot, 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:31.200 which is like, you know, when when when the protests 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:32.959 started happening in Hong Kong, all these people are like, oh, 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.880 this is all the CIA, and it's like not at all, 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.600 it's you know, it's sort of yees. So it's they 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.240 they they come to see this world in a way 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:47.720 that's sort of purely conspiratorial and purely sort of based 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:52.120 in this old Cold War stuff that just doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:54.200 I think part of the problem is that there's been 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.560 this consistent failure and this isn't even really a left 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.439 or right issue. This is like a a a culture 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:03.840 issue and kind of how to refer to places that 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:07.440 are outside of the US or sort of you know, 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.400 in the old days, the USSR is influence block. Like 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.040 you have terms like third world and now Global South, 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:17.400 and all of them are really um bad, bad terms 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:19.439 for kind And I'm We're going to try to have 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:21.280 Joey I U bon soon. But I've come to like 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.520 the term the periphery to refer to those states that 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:26.560 are kind of outside of or at least kind of 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.000 mingling influences from those you know, the major power blocks. 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:35.600 UM and I but it's it is um it I 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.600 think has led to this that kind of binary thinking 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:42.360 kind of the failure too. I think the complexity of 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.480 the actual global geopolitical situation leads to a failure, leads 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:48.920 to kind of a rejection of that complexity, in which 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:53.640 everything boils down to either pro or anti um socialism 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:55.600 or whatever on a lot of people's heads. And I 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.720 don't think that is a particularly good framework for making 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:04.040 good decisions. Yeah, absolutely, And yeah that that piece by 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:08.280 Joey is really amazing, And yeah, I think, you know, 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:10.360 I think the reason you know, a lot of times 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:12.320 folks are just kind of like, well, you know, these 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.760 these campus these tankis or whatever, it's just like they 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.800 have no real world impacts, so like just don't bother uh, 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:19.640 you know, don't don't spend too much time arguing with 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.240 them or whatever. But I guess the part that really 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:24.880 bothers me about all that is, I think what you're 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.640 kind of just saying, Robert, is like it's reducing the 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:31.600 complexity of places outside the US so much that it's dehumanizing. Right. 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:36.240 It's just like people in Hong Kong aren't full humans 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:38.920 to these people because they see it's like the c 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:40.600 I you can just kind of parachute one or two 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.480 people in and lead like a two million person march, right, 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:46.120 as if Hong Kong people have no political agency of 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:50.839 their own or you know, understandings of how complex their 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:55.119 own situation is, right, just this kind of interimperial entanglement 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.560 that they're stuck in. So you know, there's this book 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.800 called Nothing Ever Dies by Vieton Win that I would 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.199 really recommend folks read, and I wish a lot of 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:05.680 these folks would read it too, because you know, his 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:08.960 he's talking about memory in the Vietnam War. But I 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:11.120 think the thing that really stuck out to me and 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.720 that in that framework that he develops is like, you know, 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:19.600 everyone is capable of doing right and wrong, and uh, 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:23.200 it's it's the way that we remember things like the 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:26.920 Vietnam War, for example, there are always good and bad 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:32.440 sides that people UM each side will deploy those different 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.960 types of memory in order to like villainize others and 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.000 uh lionize themselves, right. And then so I guess you know, 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:43.080 he sees the true task as being able to recognize UM, 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.800 the agency of all of us to do good and 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:48.160 bad UM, and that that earned him a lot of 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.760 hate within the Vietnamese community, I think, right, because you're 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.440 encouraged to you know, in southern California, you're encouraged to 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:58.680 be very anti communist in Orange County, that that community, 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:03.360 because that's the southern Vietnamese to Aspera. And then uh, 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.600 you know, people in Vietnam saw him as as still 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.320 kind of like this this compromised person who lives in 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.560 the US. The Vietnamese to Aspera. So it's it's kind 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:14.760 of like, you know, no way to win there, and 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:16.880 I think there's a lot of residents with that in 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:30.400 the Hong Kong ASPMA as well. I kind of want 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:32.720 to move us along if I can to actually talking 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:37.880 about UM the five demands and sort of the process 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:41.520 by which first off like, how you know, and this 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:43.200 is a thing that like a lot of people who 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.400 marched in the streets during the Black Lives Matter protests 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.640 last year, the uprisings whatever you want to call them, um, 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.080 we kind of kept running into this wall of well 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:53.840 what do we what do we want? And a lot 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:55.600 of folks were like, well, we want no police. But 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:57.480 also a lot of folks were like, well we just 0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.120 want to defund or right, and we just want to 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.600 reform the police. And even some of those folks were like, 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:03.400 we want to reform the police by giving them more 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.480 money and they'll hopefully kill less people. Like it was, 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:10.320 it was, um, you know, I'm trying to speak abroad here, right. 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.200 There were different local kind of movements and organizations that 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:17.240 were more specific, but you had this tremendous amount of 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.720 energy and precedent amount of energy out in the streets. Um, 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.280 but you did not have concerted demands. I think the 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.360 anchor was pretty concerned. I think everybody was more or 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.360 less pissed about the right things. But there was not 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:33.120 there was at no point did did we come together 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.800 I think in a meaningful way on a big enough 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:40.480 scale to to force to force into the mainstream of 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.480 very specific set of demands. Um. And that's not even 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:47.800 really a criticism, it's just an acknowledgement of the reality, right. Um. 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.360 Whereas in Hong Kong, I think one of the things 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:54.640 that was really successful was the messaging, the way that 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.200 kind of the messaging of the movement united around these 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:02.720 initially five demands, which I think was very successful. And 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.600 I'm kind of curious, first off, how did that come about. 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.760 It really did kind of take center stage very quickly, 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:10.960 I think, and I think some people maybe we're a 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.439 little bit surprised by that, but um, it did. I 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:17.120 think it. You know, it really kind of crystallized around 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.000 because you know, the big protests happened kind of like 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:25.399 June nine, um, and it was just like millions of 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:30.480 people on the street, and you know, the protests were 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.480 so singular in many ways, like it was the biggest 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:38.320 political mobilization in Hong Kong history. Um. And that had 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:40.720 been kind of just like been boiling for the past 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:45.119 like decade before that, And I think it was just 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:47.800 the atmosphere was was kind of like crystallized in the 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.479 sense that everyone like just everyone was scared of what 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.720 the CCP was going to do next. And I think 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:59.080 that created this kind of common understanding for people to 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:03.320 come together very quickly and easily around these uh, these 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:07.800 five demands. And you know, on June June twelfth was 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.240 when there was like the first really big escalation of 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.320 police brutality um, and people were kind of like, you know, 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.119 police kettled people inside buildings and then tear gas them, 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:20.240 which was just like the most outrageous thing. And you know, 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:24.320 a lot of Hong Kong's either were formerly not they 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:26.399 didn't really care much about politics, or they didn't really 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.240 care much about police violence because you know, that's been 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.639 going on for a very long time against marginalized people 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:34.560 in Hong Kong. But I think just the fact that 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.600 I happened to the certain set of protesters, um, non 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.199 violent protesters at that time, UM, that was one of 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:44.480 the really big kind of like breaking points. And then 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.640 on June fift there was there was a protester called 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.160 Marco Lung and he had set up on a scaffolding 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.280 at the top of like a really tall shopping mall 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:55.560 in this yellow rain code, and he had a banner 0:18:56.160 --> 0:19:00.720 that had some of these demands on the banner. UM. 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.320 And then you know, eventually he fell off the scaffold 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:05.800 and died, and that was really kind of like, you know, 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:07.520 wake up call to a lot of people about how 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.879 dire people were feeling about this. So there was a 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:14.360 lot of emotion behind it that allowed people to come together, 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.000 um around these five demands, you know, so like full 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:22.000 withdrawal the bill, retraction of the characterization that the protests 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:28.320 were riots, anesty for for arrested protesters, establishment of you know, 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:33.600 some commission into police abuse, and then uh, Carrie Lamb resigning, 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:37.080 and universal suffrage. So it was it's a really interesting 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:39.240 set of five demands, and I think, I guess to 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.720 get to your question, I think it runs the gamut 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:48.200 between like very doable too not so doable, I guess, right, Like, uh, 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:50.960 the universal suffrage, when I think is like, you know, 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.360 that's there because that's been the demand from Hong Konger's 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.400 for like a very long time, at least a decade 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.840 before that. So but then you know, I think that 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.520 it's not. I don't think anyone I've really thought that 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:05.439 was going to happen. The government was never going to 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:08.639 concede to that. But uh, you know, the very first amount, 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:10.399 full with drawal, of the bill was very doable, and 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.680 it did end up happening very soon after the death 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.840 of Marko Lung Right, So, um, I don't know, I 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:18.679 don't know if that helps answer the question a little bit. 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.160 Is just like the five demands, Uh, we're we're very 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.760 pragmatic in some ways but then also aspirational in other ways, 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.720 and that that gave a lot of different people different 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:32.399 avenues to like come into it. And there was I 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:34.199 as I understand, there was like an app right, like, 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:36.840 can we talk a little bit more about like the 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:39.320 kind of methods by which I mean it was that 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.280 more forum actually voting on actions or was that one 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.919 of the ways in which demands were kind of arrived 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:50.439 at as well? Yeah, so there's it wasn't I mean, 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:53.800 it was telegram. A lot of people use telegrams, but um, 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:55.840 you know l I h k G, which is like 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.560 a really popular Internet forum. I guess kind of the 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:04.679 equivalent is something like reddit um. And you know, I 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:06.959 wouldn't say that they were kind of like the centralized 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:10.280 site for where like decisions were like made an issued 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:13.359 from there, but it was the kind of most active 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:17.200 site where people would go to discuss strategy tactics and 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.800 debate things. Um. And you know, this might get to 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:24.280 some later questions about like the role of the right 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:26.720 wing and all this, but I would say that the 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:31.280 overall character of the forum was slightly more you know, 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:36.920 right leaning, or at least they were sympathetic to that 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:42.760 to that position, right. So I think in that way, UM, 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.320 that might be how things eventually, like you know, a 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:49.080 year and a half later, started moving more towards the 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:53.880 right um through that forum. Yeah, but there was never like, 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:56.240 you know, there was never like, oh, okay, we're gonna 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.080 run a poll and then whatever the decision of this is, 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:01.280 that's going to side what we do tomorrow. Like, it 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:05.760 was never that formalized, um. And you know, it was 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:08.920 decentralized in the sense that people would discuss what would 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:12.159 be the best tactic and then you could just like 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:15.440 split off into like affinity groups and then you could 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:17.400 choose to follow that if you want the next day 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:20.000 or or or not right and a lot of times 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:22.280 it was like people would be making these decisions on 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:25.959 the fly the day of, at the front lines on 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:30.159 those telegram groups and stuff. And how was it that, Um, 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:32.440 I guess the question I'm trying to answer for myself 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:36.360 is like it seems like, you know, for a movement 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:38.919 that was in it, you know, it internally had a 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:41.800 lot of ideological diversity and a lot of disagreement. It 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:44.520 seems like there was more of a concerted agreement about 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:48.280 goals in Hong Kong UM than I've seen in anything, 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:52.400 you know, uh, state side in my life. And I'm 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:56.359 kind of wondering how that process of consensus or if 0:22:56.359 --> 0:22:58.200 I or if I'm even kind of approaching it from 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:00.440 the wrong perspective by thinking that there was that white 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.560 a consensus. Maybe that's something that just reached out internationally. 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:06.520 I guess. I mean, I can talk a little bit 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:11.080 about kind of like what decentralization meant in Hong Kong 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:14.200 and the wider context of like the political culture there, 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.040 because like I was saying, like the protests in twenty 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:21.000 nineteen were really singular in the sunset like um, it 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:23.960 was like a really big cultural shift from previous political 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:27.040 events in Hong Kong. So like occupied, the Occupied Central 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:31.560 Movement inteen that morphed into the Umbrella movement UM was 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:33.959 this kind of like Sunday nine day occupation of like 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:36.760 different parts of the city. But like most notably the 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:40.400 central banking areas. And it was it was like very 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:44.040 much led by student protests groups, you know, like Joshua 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:45.639 Wong and all the all the other people that you 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:48.520 would have heard of, um. And then also these kind 0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:51.439 of like old guard political parties, and they were the 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:55.159 ones kind of literally on a stage kind of like issuing, Okay, 0:23:55.160 --> 0:23:57.040 this is what we should all do. But we've we've 0:23:57.080 --> 0:23:59.760 come to our analysis and these are the best decisions. 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:04.119 And you know, the the Umbrella Movement was, you know, 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:07.160 from one perspective, from from just kind of the pragmatic 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:09.359 perspective of like achieving its goals. Like it just a 0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:11.960 complete failure, right. It was just seventy nine days occupation 0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:14.320 and they were just like swept away by the police. 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:18.600 And but you know, I think that the consciousness of 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:21.120 what happened, which was just like we're gonna sit here 0:24:21.160 --> 0:24:24.320 and then we're gonna have leaders tell us what to do. 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:28.200 I think that really kind of affected people when the 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.800 Umbrella Movement collapsed. And you know, in in that five 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:34.440 years afterwards, as the CCP was kind of like ramping 0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:38.439 up its repression. UM, that's what was kind of like 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:41.399 the light switch for people was like, we can't replicate 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:45.920 this kind of like follow the leaders style thing anymore. Um. 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:48.359 And you know the movements before that too was like 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:51.720 the occupied There was an occupied Central in twelve as well, 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:55.240 you know, obviously to coincide with Global occupy. That was 0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:57.359 also this kind of like we're all just going to 0:24:57.520 --> 0:25:00.920 camp out here at the plaza beneath hsp SEE headquarters, 0:25:00.960 --> 0:25:03.720 and um, there was there was kind of like the 0:25:04.080 --> 0:25:07.600 Occupy Wall Street type of like trying to build consensus 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:12.000 and decision making there. Um. But I think it was 0:25:12.080 --> 0:25:16.320 so it was like so hemmed in based on the 0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:20.520 act of occupation. Um. That that's why you know, people 0:25:20.600 --> 0:25:24.360 also learned from that that just you know, camping out 0:25:24.440 --> 0:25:26.199 is not really going to do anything in the Hong 0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:29.199 Kong context. Um. And then that's where all this kind 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:32.520 of like decentralization be water and the fluidity and all 0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:36.880 that stuff. That's where that sprang out of. So so 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:42.320 I guess if I'm understanding this right, the demands kind 0:25:42.320 --> 0:25:46.359 of had been like floating around and then you have 0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:47.840 the sort of political conscious as you have all of 0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:52.399 this stuff anger crystallizing. And then is it accurate to 0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:56.840 say that when Marcael young fell from the building, like 0:25:56.960 --> 0:25:59.239 holding the signs like that. That's how it's sort of 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:02.159 like became officialized, like the sort of the rage around 0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:05.200 that like crystallize it into a thing. They were issued. 0:26:05.240 --> 0:26:07.960 I mean, the demands like existed before that, but I 0:26:07.960 --> 0:26:12.680 think the when Marco died, that's when like that gave 0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:16.560 a lot of people who were either kind of like um, 0:26:16.600 --> 0:26:20.720 either apathetic or they like didn't really agree or you know, 0:26:20.800 --> 0:26:23.160 they saw no way to like kind of participate in 0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:27.000 what became just kind of like it was just like 0:26:27.040 --> 0:26:29.560 every you know, eventually everyone had an avenue into this, 0:26:29.720 --> 0:26:33.520 into the movement. UM. I think that's what crystallized that, right, 0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:36.720 and it made the demands accessible to everyone. So I 0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:38.560 guess I guess the question is just like where did 0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:43.240 they come from? Like who actually like rope them? Yeah? Yeah, 0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:45.199 I mean that would have taken place on the on 0:26:45.400 --> 0:26:49.159 l I h KG right, And as far as I know, 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:55.160 no one, there's no like authorship or ownership over them. UM. 0:26:55.280 --> 0:26:59.040 People are anonymous on that forum, right, So in that way, 0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:03.920 it's like somewhat like four Chad like UM. And yeah, 0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:07.640 I mean there was definitely voting on all h KG 0:27:08.400 --> 0:27:12.040 UM and I would assume at some point that happened 0:27:13.000 --> 0:27:21.120 to bring the five demands together. So there's another thing 0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:26.479 I think that that watching it from the outside was 0:27:26.560 --> 0:27:29.240 really interesting about the protest that like very much did 0:27:29.320 --> 0:27:33.119 that does not happen in the US. Which was the 0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:36.840 way that the sort of more militant factions who are 0:27:36.840 --> 0:27:42.199 willing to fight the police for like main developed and 0:27:42.240 --> 0:27:45.840 maintained like a working relationship with the not the very 0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:49.640 nonviolent factions. And it might understanding it was to sort 0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:52.880 of solidifies after the storm of the Legislative Council. Um, 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:55.159 could you talk about that a bit more and like 0:27:55.320 --> 0:27:57.520 is that actually like is that what happened? And how 0:27:57.600 --> 0:28:00.720 how did that actually happen? Because that seems like a 0:28:00.800 --> 0:28:07.120 very important moment. It just hasn't happened in the US. Yeah, 0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:09.480 I think it's I mean, the way that that happened, 0:28:09.520 --> 0:28:12.280 I think was just so um like there were so 0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:17.080 many factors, um, that enabled that to happen. Because yeah, 0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:19.879 for the longest time, like in those previous movements, especially 0:28:19.880 --> 0:28:23.480 the Umbrella um, the Umbrella movement, and then in SI 0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:27.040 there was something called the Fishball riots, which was like, um, 0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:29.640 you know, police were police and government officials were trying 0:28:29.640 --> 0:28:33.240 to like clear out street vendors because of like licensing 0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:35.680 issues or whatever. And then you know, just a whole 0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:38.640 bunch of kind of like radical folks. They're kind of 0:28:38.640 --> 0:28:43.760 like independence leaning uh folks, politicians and stuff. Um, you know, 0:28:43.800 --> 0:28:46.080 kind of flat back on that, and it became violent. 0:28:46.200 --> 0:28:49.720 And you know, that was that was when the one 0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:54.800 of the protest luminaries, Edward Luang was was he came 0:28:54.880 --> 0:28:57.000 up with that that that kind of slogan, the free 0:28:57.000 --> 0:28:59.480 Hong Kong Revolution of our time slogan. That's when he 0:28:59.520 --> 0:29:02.120 was in prison and after that the fish Ball riots. 0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:05.400 But um, so there had been this kind of like 0:29:05.800 --> 0:29:08.720 push and pull or like tension between the moderates and 0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:13.720 the um violent militant factions for quite some time. And 0:29:13.800 --> 0:29:15.840 so I think a lot of people saw the Umbrella 0:29:15.880 --> 0:29:19.200 movement and it's it's kind of non success as being 0:29:19.240 --> 0:29:22.880 attributed to the moderates, right, and so there was I 0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:26.560 think there was a general mood that things had to change. Um. 0:29:26.600 --> 0:29:29.080 But then I think the fact that I would say 0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:34.040 again the overarching thing that enabled people to come together 0:29:34.320 --> 0:29:37.520 was this kind of everything has to be against like 0:29:37.600 --> 0:29:42.200 we we had to put everything we have against the CCP. Right, So, um, 0:29:42.240 --> 0:29:45.120 there was a lot of kind of like power struggle 0:29:45.280 --> 0:29:49.680 and like um divisiveness uh during the Umbrella movement of 0:29:49.720 --> 0:29:53.920 people trying to like um, have their view you know, 0:29:53.960 --> 0:29:57.160 their political analysis or their strategies and tactics take precedence, 0:29:57.240 --> 0:29:59.480 and a lot of people saw that as just kind 0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:04.240 of like pointless squabbling or like divisiveness that the government 0:30:04.240 --> 0:30:08.200 was able to use to like um, you know, defeat 0:30:08.200 --> 0:30:10.720 the movement. Right. So I think all those things informed 0:30:10.760 --> 0:30:13.440 what was having there. And then there were two kind 0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:17.400 of like overriding philosophies in the movement. So one was 0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:20.760 like the idea of like having no big stage, that's 0:30:20.800 --> 0:30:23.360 what it was called, and so that was like not 0:30:23.440 --> 0:30:27.760 taking any uh, not having protest leaders, not having people 0:30:27.800 --> 0:30:30.680 make the decisions up top. And the second thing was 0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:35.200 this idiom like called brothers climbing the mountain um, which 0:30:35.240 --> 0:30:38.640 basically means like we're all climbing the same mountain of 0:30:38.680 --> 0:30:42.720 trying to defeat the CCP. It doesn't matter how we're 0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:45.480 doing it. So there was this really kind of like, uh, 0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:49.640 the question of method uh and means was really kind 0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:51.680 of put into the backseat. It was all just kind 0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:54.760 of about the end goal UM. And you know, there 0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:57.320 was that kind of related idiom of like not cutting Matt, 0:30:57.880 --> 0:31:00.360 which means like even if you have different and those 0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:02.760 with folks in terms of like how you choose to 0:31:02.760 --> 0:31:06.719 go about contributing to the movement, uh, you never severed 0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:09.080 ties with people over this, and so those are the 0:31:09.160 --> 0:31:12.720 two kind of overwriting philosophies in the movement. And I 0:31:12.720 --> 0:31:16.200 think it was definitely very helpful in in keeping this 0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:19.160 kind of like movement unity, but it definitely had its 0:31:19.240 --> 0:31:23.640 drawbacks eventually in terms of like decentralization. I can talk 0:31:23.640 --> 0:31:25.959 more about that later or I can talk about it now. 0:31:26.000 --> 0:31:29.360 I don't know. Yeah, no, sorry, I was yeah, I'm 0:31:29.440 --> 0:31:33.360 I'm I would like that. So, you know, in terms 0:31:33.360 --> 0:31:37.040 of decentralization, I think it was it was just kind 0:31:37.040 --> 0:31:38.600 of like in the right place at the right time 0:31:38.600 --> 0:31:40.959 for for Hong Kongers. I think, you know, they were 0:31:41.040 --> 0:31:43.560 very fed up with with all the ways that things 0:31:43.600 --> 0:31:46.240 had gone before, and so a lot of people were 0:31:46.280 --> 0:31:48.719 more open to trying this out. And I think the 0:31:48.720 --> 0:31:51.120 fact that you know, there was a lot of fear 0:31:51.240 --> 0:31:56.040 around surveillance UM and and whatnot at the time in 0:31:56.080 --> 0:31:58.719 Hong Kong, and obviously it's gotten much worse, but you know, 0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:02.440 so everyone there was never really the kind of that 0:32:02.560 --> 0:32:05.800 overriding fear in the umbrella movement or the occupy movements 0:32:05.920 --> 0:32:09.640 of like having to stay anonymous or whatever, Whereas here, 0:32:09.720 --> 0:32:11.840 I guess the fact that it just went hand in 0:32:11.920 --> 0:32:15.480 hand with UM taking more militant actions that a lot 0:32:15.480 --> 0:32:18.120 of people kind of. I think the really interesting part 0:32:18.160 --> 0:32:21.600 is is so much of the what happened in decentralized 0:32:21.880 --> 0:32:25.640 decentralizing UM, you know, the political culture in Hong Kong 0:32:25.720 --> 0:32:30.160 was that it adopted a lot of leftist tactics UM 0:32:30.200 --> 0:32:34.160 you know, obviously like black block and stuff without you know, 0:32:34.560 --> 0:32:37.480 I think the word leftism or leftist in Hong Kong 0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:40.120 is like it's like you don't touch it, right because 0:32:40.120 --> 0:32:44.000 it's there's no way to dissociate it from from the 0:32:44.040 --> 0:32:47.920 CCP and Hong Kong's minds, which is it's very topsy turvy, right, 0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:50.720 because there's nothing leftist about the CCP as it stands 0:32:50.800 --> 0:32:55.320 right now. But it's it's very hard to convince folks 0:32:55.320 --> 0:32:58.200 there of that. And so it's very interesting the way 0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:00.080 that people were able to adopt like the tactic and 0:33:00.160 --> 0:33:05.880 strategies without any of the ideological underpinnings to it. UM. 0:33:05.920 --> 0:33:09.480 And so you know, the no big stage and the 0:33:09.600 --> 0:33:14.000 brothers Climbing Mountain um. That eventually became a way to 0:33:14.320 --> 0:33:17.920 shut down dissent, right because any time people wanted to 0:33:17.960 --> 0:33:23.240 have like principal debate, principled debate or two talk strategy 0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:27.520 or to question the way things were going, then that 0:33:28.200 --> 0:33:30.200 you know, that philosophy would be kind of trotted out 0:33:30.280 --> 0:33:32.280 and you would be you could be accused of like 0:33:32.480 --> 0:33:37.760 undermining movement unity and whatnot. And you know, I think 0:33:38.680 --> 0:33:41.920 people were so fearful of either being accused of that 0:33:42.120 --> 0:33:45.080 or of or or of causing that, right, Like, I 0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:49.880 don't think anyone wanted the movement to fragment, right, but um, 0:33:50.040 --> 0:33:53.080 people were so averse to doing that, that those two 0:33:53.160 --> 0:33:58.120 philosophies really became a way to silence UM any other 0:33:59.160 --> 0:34:01.760 thing other than what is dominant in the movement. And 0:34:01.760 --> 0:34:06.160 that eventually became you know, the exclusionary, xenophobic like pro 0:34:06.240 --> 0:34:12.040 Trump thing, you know, in the tail end of after 0:34:12.120 --> 0:34:16.080 COVID and a lot of stuff. So that's how I 0:34:16.120 --> 0:34:19.840 see it going down. Yeah, yeah, and it is this, UM, 0:34:19.880 --> 0:34:22.360 I think there's this problem. You saw versions of it 0:34:22.400 --> 0:34:26.000 in Ukraine too, where As the as a movement kind 0:34:26.000 --> 0:34:30.839 of predicated on confronting the government goes on and as 0:34:30.920 --> 0:34:34.160 the clashes get more violent, kind of the right wing 0:34:35.040 --> 0:34:38.600 UM picks up influence because those kind of folks tend 0:34:38.600 --> 0:34:44.080 to be more prepared for the for the fighting. Yeah, exactly. 0:34:44.239 --> 0:34:47.359 And I mean there's never been any kind of like, 0:34:48.000 --> 0:34:50.560 I don't know, there there's no kind of conclusiveness about 0:34:50.600 --> 0:34:54.160 the ideology of the front liners, like the more militant 0:34:54.200 --> 0:34:58.759 folks UM, but I think there's there's kind of a 0:34:58.800 --> 0:35:03.000 general sense that a lot of the front liners were 0:35:03.680 --> 0:35:06.880 UM a little bit more if not right wing, then 0:35:06.920 --> 0:35:09.840 they were more sympathetic to the to that right because 0:35:09.920 --> 0:35:14.640 if they were fired up enough to like, you know, 0:35:14.760 --> 0:35:19.040 do that kind of street fighting, then likely their their 0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:21.520 view of China is like, you know, along the more 0:35:21.600 --> 0:35:28.000 kind of xenophobic and uh nativist wavelength. One of the 0:35:28.040 --> 0:35:31.160 struggles I think is that um, you know, for the 0:35:31.239 --> 0:35:34.160 kind of for the goals as they were kind of 0:35:34.160 --> 0:35:36.400 hallucidated of the Hong Kong movement, that could have worked, 0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:40.719 but it also like you know that that would have 0:35:40.760 --> 0:35:43.160 eventually provided a problem when it came to the whole 0:35:43.280 --> 0:35:46.560 figuring out what to do next? Thing? Right, Like, there's 0:35:46.600 --> 0:35:49.600 only there's there's kind of a limited extent to which 0:35:49.640 --> 0:35:53.600 those tendencies can potentially coexist. Um, And it is one 0:35:53.600 --> 0:35:56.160 of those things you have to think about, like if 0:35:56.200 --> 0:35:58.400 you happen to get a broad movement, you know what. 0:35:58.520 --> 0:36:02.560 Like again looking at Ukraine, Um, there there's been this 0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:05.600 kind of very awkward compromise with the far right, which 0:36:05.600 --> 0:36:08.239 is a minority party, but like that compromise has led 0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:11.920 to some very ugly things happening over there, including like 0:36:12.000 --> 0:36:15.320 the arming of a kind of a militant neo Nazi movement, 0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:18.640 which is like yeah, and I don't know, like when 0:36:18.680 --> 0:36:20.880 you're there in the moment and you're just trying to 0:36:21.600 --> 0:36:23.960 deal with the state, Um, I don't know how you 0:36:24.160 --> 0:36:27.120 entirely avoid that, right because you need frontliners and if 0:36:27.160 --> 0:36:30.040 some of those folks believe fucked up ship but they're 0:36:30.040 --> 0:36:31.680 going up against the cops, like, what are you going 0:36:31.719 --> 0:36:35.360 to do? Exactly? And I mean, I guess it's I 0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:37.640 don't think it's any small coincidence that you know, those 0:36:37.760 --> 0:36:42.239 those kind of like fascist Ukrainian people showed up at 0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:46.080 the Hong Kong protests, right, Um, And you know, I 0:36:46.080 --> 0:36:48.200 think a lot of the front liners who like took 0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:50.360 photos with them and stuff, had no idea who the 0:36:50.360 --> 0:36:52.719 hell they were, right, They're just like hey, Like I 0:36:52.719 --> 0:36:55.520 think that the overriding sentiment was like anyone who's who's 0:36:55.600 --> 0:36:58.319 going to like show us support? Is that's good for 0:36:58.440 --> 0:37:01.399 us because we want this a global visibility to put 0:37:01.440 --> 0:37:05.239 pressure on China. That was just how basic it was 0:37:05.280 --> 0:37:08.920 and very understandable. And you know, so obviously those images 0:37:08.920 --> 0:37:11.680 were trotted out all over uh you know, Twitter and 0:37:11.719 --> 0:37:14.920 stuff to show Okay, well Hong kongers or fascist and 0:37:14.920 --> 0:37:17.800 and whatnot. But yeah, I think it's it's much more complex, 0:37:17.840 --> 0:37:20.279 Like you were saying, it's just like when when you're there, 0:37:20.320 --> 0:37:22.480 what do you do. It's like, you're not gonna stop 0:37:22.560 --> 0:37:25.120 front liners while they're fighting the cops to like have 0:37:25.200 --> 0:37:28.160 principal debate, right, And at some point it's just like, 0:37:28.440 --> 0:37:31.520 when is that going to happen? And I think the 0:37:32.080 --> 0:37:34.080 l I h KG as a as an internet forum, 0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:38.239 I think, um, in some ways it could make that 0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:40.520 very possible, but in other ways, I think it makes 0:37:40.520 --> 0:37:43.239 it much more difficult, right, because you're you're having these 0:37:43.280 --> 0:37:46.640 discussions with anonymous people who don't you know, Obviously, if 0:37:46.640 --> 0:37:48.640 you're anonymous on a forum, it it kind of like 0:37:48.800 --> 0:37:52.920 gets rid of so many uh boundaries of like accountability 0:37:53.000 --> 0:37:56.640 and um, how you would treat each other with respect 0:37:56.880 --> 0:38:00.759 in a debate about your shared goals and of right. So, 0:38:01.480 --> 0:38:05.600 you know, I think decentralization was very important to Hong 0:38:05.680 --> 0:38:11.800 Kong in that moment. But I think the right wing folks, 0:38:11.960 --> 0:38:14.120 you know, who are a very small minority, I think 0:38:14.160 --> 0:38:18.760 they were able to instrumentalize those two philosophies very well 0:38:18.880 --> 0:38:22.879 and manipulated very well to like position themselves as like 0:38:23.040 --> 0:38:26.720 the true inheritors of the movement by you know, forcing 0:38:26.760 --> 0:38:28.680 through this idea that they were the ones that were 0:38:28.760 --> 0:38:32.920 protecting these kind of like secret principles of like unity 0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:36.920 movement unity and no splitting and and all that stuff, right. 0:38:36.960 --> 0:38:40.279 And you know, I think what I've heard from from 0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:42.560 leftist folks over there is that, you know, obviously the 0:38:42.600 --> 0:38:45.239 left is very marginalized in Hong Kong, but what I've 0:38:45.239 --> 0:38:47.839 heard from leftist folks is that just like no one 0:38:47.920 --> 0:38:52.040 had the means, either the means or the heart to 0:38:53.080 --> 0:38:56.600 fight back against that, because I think the conditions just 0:38:56.640 --> 0:39:00.880 weren't right. You know, the people were living in such 0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:04.840 like everyone felt like they were steeped in this daily 0:39:04.920 --> 0:39:09.680 kind of like extremity, that everything was just like crisis mode. UM, 0:39:09.800 --> 0:39:12.000 and to ask people to slow down or to like 0:39:12.080 --> 0:39:17.880 take non extreme measures became extremely difficult. UM. And I 0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:22.160 can totally understand that. Yeah, I mean that's something UM. 0:39:22.200 --> 0:39:24.319 I mean, that's something we've seen in Portland to just 0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:27.439 this UM. Not with the right wing so much, because 0:39:27.440 --> 0:39:30.319 there's obviously has never been really any collaboration between right 0:39:30.320 --> 0:39:33.560 and left in the but but with this kind of UM. 0:39:33.600 --> 0:39:36.200 If what you're suggesting isn't more extreme than what's been 0:39:36.239 --> 0:39:39.319 done before, UM, then why would we listen to it? 0:39:39.400 --> 0:39:41.800 You know, this UM, which is I think a product 0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:44.799 of trauma as much as anything else. And I don't 0:39:44.840 --> 0:39:46.680 know like that I think is one of the things 0:39:48.160 --> 0:39:52.600 you have to solve if you're actually going to like win, UM, 0:39:52.640 --> 0:39:56.200 which obviously you know, winning is a separate matter altogether, 0:39:56.320 --> 0:39:59.120 like we've got. I think there's a lot of lessons 0:39:59.160 --> 0:40:02.040 in what happened in Hong Kong, UM. And one of 0:40:02.040 --> 0:40:05.160 those lessons is that it's pretty easy for the state 0:40:05.239 --> 0:40:08.839 to win. Yeah. And I forgot to mention this before 0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:10.479 we were talking about the five demands. But I guess, 0:40:10.480 --> 0:40:12.279 just just to jump back really quickly, I mean, there 0:40:12.360 --> 0:40:16.000 was that there was a sixth demand, right, and um, 0:40:16.040 --> 0:40:19.480 you know that that cropped up around October two one, 0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:22.440 like a cop shot a teenager with the live round 0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:25.799 and you know, the cropped up for obvious reasons because 0:40:25.840 --> 0:40:29.200 of that um in in protest chance all over the place. 0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:34.160 But that never crystallized into like a quote unquote official thing, 0:40:34.560 --> 0:40:37.319 right because I think there was still that kind of 0:40:37.440 --> 0:40:42.200 barrier to the idea of police abolish and uh for 0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:44.640 a lot of folks, I guess, and because it's the 0:40:44.680 --> 0:40:47.520 it's the first time, you know, this is the only 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:49.879 or I guess this is the time in Hong Kong 0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:53.160 where the most people have had the most anti police 0:40:53.200 --> 0:40:58.160 sentiment in its history. Right Yeah, Um, like people kind 0:40:58.160 --> 0:41:02.160 of like disapprove of, you know, how the police conducted 0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:05.560 themselves or whatever during the protests. So, um, it's I 0:41:05.560 --> 0:41:07.880 think it's a start. I think it's a good place 0:41:07.960 --> 0:41:10.480 for to like plant the seeds of abolition. But I 0:41:10.520 --> 0:41:13.640 think that that kind of shows the dynamics of like 0:41:13.760 --> 0:41:17.040 what became official and then what became what couldn't become 0:41:17.040 --> 0:41:22.400 official in terms of those demands. Um, and I you know, 0:41:22.520 --> 0:41:26.640 because I'm I'm assuming on l I h KG. It's 0:41:26.680 --> 0:41:28.520 like a closed forum, so you can't you can't join 0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:31.560 and discuss if you don't have like a university address 0:41:31.600 --> 0:41:33.680 or whatever. So that's why I wasn't on there Hong 0:41:33.760 --> 0:41:38.440 Kong University address. Um. There was tons of debate there 0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:41.279 about you know, this idea of police abolition, but I 0:41:41.280 --> 0:41:44.280 think it eventually. Also, this is kind of a similar 0:41:44.320 --> 0:41:47.440 thing between the abolished the police or defund the police 0:41:47.760 --> 0:41:51.000 debate here, which is like a lot of people saw 0:41:51.040 --> 0:41:54.400 the sixth demand as reform, like we should just like 0:41:54.480 --> 0:42:01.040 fire every single cop and then rehire like the entire force, right, 0:42:01.080 --> 0:42:04.120 and they thought we just need to clean house. That's 0:42:04.120 --> 0:42:06.680 like the bad Apples thing, right, And then other people 0:42:06.719 --> 0:42:09.520 saw that as more like we need to actually confront 0:42:09.640 --> 0:42:14.200 the practice of policing, practice and concept of policing. So, um, 0:42:14.239 --> 0:42:18.960 I guess because there was that divisiveness over what abolition means, 0:42:19.760 --> 0:42:22.160 abolition or reform, then yeah, that's why it never took 0:42:22.280 --> 0:42:37.040 root as something official. I guess. There is one thing, 0:42:37.640 --> 0:42:40.359 which is that you know, we saw some of this 0:42:41.719 --> 0:42:46.600 like spread to the US. But the way that I 0:42:46.640 --> 0:42:49.520 guess could you talk a bit about how this sort 0:42:49.520 --> 0:42:53.040 of like the how the like street fighting tactics spread 0:42:53.760 --> 0:42:55.839 because I know, I mean but both both how they 0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:58.239 developed inside the movement then, you know, because after that, 0:42:59.200 --> 0:43:01.640 I mean, I remember there are these protests Indonesia in 0:43:01.640 --> 0:43:04.799 twenty nineteen, and like those people were also you know, 0:43:04.920 --> 0:43:09.120 they were doing the like water stuff and that formulas 0:43:09.239 --> 0:43:12.799 or to spread really quickly. But I'm exciting and I 0:43:12.800 --> 0:43:15.239 know also that like there there I saw some of 0:43:15.239 --> 0:43:17.920 these like they had these like really detailed infographics on 0:43:18.080 --> 0:43:21.120 like like you know, this is this is how you 0:43:21.160 --> 0:43:23.239 form people on a line. This is everyone's roles, is 0:43:23.239 --> 0:43:26.880 what equipment you need? So how did that stuff like 0:43:27.280 --> 0:43:31.960 appear And was it just spreading a telegram or yeah? 0:43:32.000 --> 0:43:34.840 I think, um, And I think that's one of the 0:43:34.840 --> 0:43:37.239 ways I guess this kind of connects actually to the 0:43:37.320 --> 0:43:39.359 very first question was, which is like how do we 0:43:39.400 --> 0:43:42.920 confront or like try and deal with this the campus, 0:43:43.000 --> 0:43:45.480 which is like one of the ways we tried to 0:43:45.520 --> 0:43:47.239 approach it through lou Song was just kind of like 0:43:47.280 --> 0:43:49.960 this exchange of tactics actually is something that we can 0:43:50.200 --> 0:43:55.399 share transnationally. Um, because obviously states are collaborating in terms 0:43:55.400 --> 0:43:59.160 of exchanging strategies and weapons and ammunitions and a lot 0:43:59.160 --> 0:44:00.840 of stuff. So we should be kind of collaborating in 0:44:00.840 --> 0:44:03.160 the same way. And I think that's something that Hong 0:44:03.200 --> 0:44:05.920 Kong had to offer the world, um, in terms of 0:44:05.960 --> 0:44:09.120 how that actually happened. Um, it's kind of interesting, right 0:44:09.120 --> 0:44:10.640 because I was saying earlier how I feel like a 0:44:10.680 --> 0:44:14.279 lot of the protesters adopted black block without adopting any 0:44:14.320 --> 0:44:17.440 of the ideology. Um. And then maybe it was I 0:44:17.480 --> 0:44:20.240 think that's seeing that similarity for a lot of folks online, 0:44:20.239 --> 0:44:23.839 Like I think it was, it was all like viral videos, right, Um, 0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:27.520 that people would just encounter on their timelines without any 0:44:27.600 --> 0:44:29.719 real context of like what the hell was happening in 0:44:29.760 --> 0:44:34.080 Hong Kong. Uh. You know, seeing seeing like clearly young 0:44:34.120 --> 0:44:38.520 young kids like putting out tear gas canisters with pylons 0:44:38.560 --> 0:44:41.400 and water and stuff is just like that's something immediately 0:44:41.520 --> 0:44:44.799 that you learned within thirty seconds that you don't have 0:44:44.880 --> 0:44:46.719 to like I don't agree with their aims or I 0:44:46.760 --> 0:44:49.440 don't agree with any of that. And um, you know, 0:44:49.640 --> 0:44:52.319 using the umbrellas to block out security cameras and and 0:44:52.320 --> 0:44:54.560 all that, and and tear gas and stuff is just 0:44:54.640 --> 0:44:59.040 like these things are so portable visually, and like we 0:44:59.040 --> 0:45:01.600 were saying before in terms of infographics, where there's drawbacks 0:45:01.640 --> 0:45:03.640 to that, I think it's like the thirty second clip 0:45:03.840 --> 0:45:06.400 on like TikTok or or Twitter or whatever happens to be. 0:45:06.560 --> 0:45:09.520 It's like that is the flip side of how social 0:45:09.520 --> 0:45:12.000 media is actually fucking amazing, right, because it's just like 0:45:12.440 --> 0:45:16.080 you're getting this instant kind of political education and also 0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:21.920 like street fighting education. Um, just like that and without 0:45:21.960 --> 0:45:24.359 without actually seeking it out, right, because I think that's 0:45:24.400 --> 0:45:27.640 the key part. Um. People who might be predisposed to 0:45:27.920 --> 0:45:30.800 being against what Hong Kong is trying to do or 0:45:31.160 --> 0:45:34.560 what they stand for, and that type of thing, um, 0:45:34.600 --> 0:45:38.360 you know, Falselier or otherwise, UM might just that that 0:45:38.440 --> 0:45:40.960 might just like be retweeted onto their timeline. And I 0:45:41.000 --> 0:45:43.560 think that's that's the kind of beautiful thing about Twitter 0:45:43.600 --> 0:45:47.120 that I really love. UM. And I'm pretty sure that's 0:45:47.120 --> 0:45:50.320 how it spread. I don't you know. Laosan tried to 0:45:50.360 --> 0:45:53.279 put on these these formal exchanges where we would talk 0:45:53.280 --> 0:45:56.839 more about that, UM, but I'm pretty sure that at 0:45:56.840 --> 0:46:00.879 all it was mostly all just viral. Yeah. Yeah, even 0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:04.200 mainstream media was picking up stuff up and show sharing 0:46:04.200 --> 0:46:07.919 those videos because they want the clicks and they want them. Yeah, 0:46:07.960 --> 0:46:10.319 I think they're really hitting on something there with the 0:46:10.360 --> 0:46:13.040 spread of visual information, because that's that's something we definitely 0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:15.839 saw last year in the States is a lot of 0:46:16.360 --> 0:46:20.680 people who were newer to protesting picking up on the 0:46:20.840 --> 0:46:24.560 visual cues that they saw from Hong Kong coverage and 0:46:24.640 --> 0:46:28.560 trying to replicate it um And for a lot of 0:46:28.560 --> 0:46:30.640 the time it didn't actually work out that well. Like 0:46:30.840 --> 0:46:33.200 like remember like the first few weeks in Portland, we 0:46:33.239 --> 0:46:37.000 would see people like carrying around pylons but not knowing 0:46:37.120 --> 0:46:38.839 no what, not really knowing what to do with them, 0:46:38.880 --> 0:46:41.799 just because they saw people do this before online. And 0:46:41.840 --> 0:46:44.320 then after a while we started to see them slowly 0:46:44.360 --> 0:46:47.440 figure out how to actually extinguish tear gas canisters loafing 0:46:47.520 --> 0:46:49.680 with like leafblowers and stuff. We see it like they 0:46:49.760 --> 0:46:53.000 first used the rhetoric, they first used kind of the aesthetics, 0:46:53.239 --> 0:46:57.279 and then slowly they learned the actual practical skills um. 0:46:57.320 --> 0:47:00.200 Because you can't just learn something by watching, you have 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:02.239 to also kind of do it. I mean it's it's 0:47:02.320 --> 0:47:06.239 it's trickier. You sometimes can, but you generally kind of 0:47:06.280 --> 0:47:08.400 have to practice skill as well. We saw that a 0:47:08.400 --> 0:47:11.279 lot and one thing that people never really learned how 0:47:11.320 --> 0:47:13.560 to do well, but they kept the rhetoric of it 0:47:13.600 --> 0:47:17.160 is the whole like b water thing. That's something that 0:47:18.200 --> 0:47:20.480 no one really figured out, at least here in Portland. 0:47:20.840 --> 0:47:23.439 It was like it would get chanted a lot, people 0:47:23.480 --> 0:47:26.480 would say it, but like it didn't actually do You 0:47:26.520 --> 0:47:29.600 weren't actually doing anything. Um. And I think that it's 0:47:29.640 --> 0:47:31.240 kind of like that. It's kind of the flip side 0:47:31.360 --> 0:47:35.120 of having something so reliant on like info graphics and 0:47:35.200 --> 0:47:39.400 just like viral footage, is that you'll think you're prepared 0:47:39.440 --> 0:47:40.880 for something because you've seen it, and then when you're 0:47:40.920 --> 0:47:42.960 actually doing the thing, you're like, oh, this is actually 0:47:42.960 --> 0:47:46.120 a very different than sitting in my bed scrolling through Twitter. 0:47:46.760 --> 0:47:48.279 Of this is like it's a whole it's a whole 0:47:48.320 --> 0:47:52.680 different thing. Um. But still it's it's still like incredibly useful. 0:47:52.760 --> 0:47:54.840 Right to have to have that base knowledge in the 0:47:54.880 --> 0:47:57.400 first place, is it's very useful, but you have to remember, 0:47:57.480 --> 0:48:00.840 like you you can't just think that you can watch 0:48:00.840 --> 0:48:03.040 it and then go do it immediately. And I was wondering, 0:48:03.080 --> 0:48:06.280 like from from your perspective, when you saw stuff happening 0:48:06.560 --> 0:48:09.359 in the States last year, and we saw a lot 0:48:09.360 --> 0:48:12.040 of you know, like a lot of like aesthetic mirrors 0:48:12.040 --> 0:48:15.560 of the Hong Kong protests. Were there anything, Was there 0:48:15.600 --> 0:48:19.520 anything that you think people really succeeded in or was 0:48:19.560 --> 0:48:21.680 there stuff that you think people kind of tried to 0:48:21.719 --> 0:48:24.200 replicate but kind of failed at. I mean, that's a 0:48:24.200 --> 0:48:26.120 really good point, and I think that kind of gets 0:48:26.200 --> 0:48:28.400 to what Chris was asking as well, in terms of 0:48:28.440 --> 0:48:30.640 just like I feel like there had to be also 0:48:30.760 --> 0:48:37.719 the strategic exchange to match the visual exchange in terms 0:48:37.719 --> 0:48:40.280 of just like actually knowing how to get into formation 0:48:40.280 --> 0:48:43.880 because it's just like, um, yeah, like the with the 0:48:43.920 --> 0:48:46.040 putting up the tear gas, with the pylons, it's just 0:48:46.080 --> 0:48:48.439 like you actually had to have like three or four 0:48:48.480 --> 0:48:50.960 dedicated people, like one person to hold a pilot, one 0:48:50.960 --> 0:48:53.160 person to have the water, one person to like you know, 0:48:53.200 --> 0:48:56.160 all these different things that really do need to be coordinated, 0:48:56.200 --> 0:49:00.239 and then also, like you said, practiced before you get 0:49:00.280 --> 0:49:05.759 it right, and um, I don't know. I mean there 0:49:06.000 --> 0:49:08.840 I think just so many of the tactics, like you know, 0:49:08.880 --> 0:49:13.560 stopping tear gas with umbrellas is not super effective, right, 0:49:13.600 --> 0:49:15.759 because it's just like First of all, the rounds are 0:49:15.840 --> 0:49:18.000 extremely you know, they move very fast and they're very hot. 0:49:18.040 --> 0:49:20.880 And then there it's also not going to actually shield 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:24.000 very much from you, right. So, um, I think visually 0:49:24.040 --> 0:49:27.320 it was very striking and it it's very helpful in 0:49:27.400 --> 0:49:30.800 terms of surveillance. Um. But that was something that happened 0:49:30.800 --> 0:49:33.680 in Hong Kong and also happened over here that I 0:49:33.719 --> 0:49:41.160 saw that I was just like, um, that's not super useful. Um. 0:49:41.200 --> 0:49:44.319 But I think I have been encouraging people to to 0:49:44.440 --> 0:49:47.640 bring those out more still, umbrellas and stuff, because I've 0:49:47.640 --> 0:49:49.640 heard in Toronto at least that the cops are like 0:49:49.760 --> 0:49:55.320 using surveillance drones. Yeah, umbrellas are great against cameras, and 0:49:55.520 --> 0:49:57.919 they do have a lot of advantages compared to hard 0:49:57.920 --> 0:50:00.440 shields in a lot of situations, but of course when 0:50:00.440 --> 0:50:03.080 you're facing like heavy munition fire, then they're they're not 0:50:03.160 --> 0:50:06.120 as useful. Yeah. And I saw, you know, like I 0:50:06.120 --> 0:50:08.880 saw a lot of inventiveness with the heavier shields in 0:50:08.920 --> 0:50:12.000 Hong Kong in terms of like using plastic barricades. But 0:50:12.080 --> 0:50:15.040 then you know that was that that's not super portable, right, 0:50:15.080 --> 0:50:16.719 So then I saw a lot of people making them 0:50:16.719 --> 0:50:19.920 out of like those floating you know, those things that 0:50:19.960 --> 0:50:23.319 helps you float and swim because they're super light, but 0:50:23.320 --> 0:50:28.880 then they also reflect chair gats very well, the canisters. So, um, 0:50:28.920 --> 0:50:31.280 I didn't see so much of that in the US. 0:50:31.560 --> 0:50:34.440 I saw people use more like big wooden boards and 0:50:34.480 --> 0:50:37.960 like you know, uh street signs and stuff like that, 0:50:38.040 --> 0:50:40.840 and um so that was maybe that's just a difference 0:50:40.880 --> 0:50:42.719 in terms of like what material is available to you 0:50:42.719 --> 0:50:47.520 and stuff. But um, I think the emphasis on mobility 0:50:47.640 --> 0:50:50.320 was a lot more in Hong Kong rather than the US, 0:50:50.440 --> 0:50:53.080 where it was just like the actual emphasis was on 0:50:54.280 --> 0:50:56.800 luring police to a location and then being able to 0:50:56.880 --> 0:50:59.719 quickly run away so that they're stretched so thin, right, 0:50:59.800 --> 0:51:02.279 Like that was that was a water touch. But yeah, 0:51:02.320 --> 0:51:05.120 that the States did not do that at all. You know, well, 0:51:05.160 --> 0:51:07.200 I I would say, like, okay, I don't think the 0:51:07.200 --> 0:51:09.600 people who like said be water did that at all. 0:51:10.040 --> 0:51:13.120 But like I remember, like in the beginning in Chicago, 0:51:13.239 --> 0:51:15.239 before anyone was coordinating anything, it was just a bunch 0:51:15.239 --> 0:51:17.680 of people running around like that actually did happen, Like 0:51:17.680 --> 0:51:19.440 like that was, yeah, the police like in Chicago collapse 0:51:19.440 --> 0:51:21.799 and the reason they collapse was that there's like you know, 0:51:22.040 --> 0:51:26.880 there's just six hundred people just on every street corner. 0:51:28.000 --> 0:51:32.080 There were absolutely fu cities where that did happen, and um, 0:51:32.200 --> 0:51:35.600 but generally from my experience of at least on parts 0:51:35.600 --> 0:51:37.120 of the West Coast, there was a lot of a lot, 0:51:37.280 --> 0:51:40.200 a lot of chanting about the water while you stand 0:51:40.239 --> 0:51:42.880 in front of a police station for six hours. And 0:51:42.880 --> 0:51:46.120 there were definitely actions where people did that, you know, 0:51:46.200 --> 0:51:49.000 and would would go and and and you know, get 0:51:49.040 --> 0:51:51.359 away with some mischief because they were willing to move 0:51:51.440 --> 0:51:53.920 quickly and not stick around. But yeah, there was a 0:51:53.920 --> 0:51:58.080 lot of chanting be water while repeatedly heading back to 0:51:58.120 --> 0:52:03.200 the same police station. Um. You know, I wonder about that, 0:52:03.320 --> 0:52:05.760 like because because it seems like once this it seemed 0:52:05.800 --> 0:52:08.680 like like once you were in because at the very 0:52:08.680 --> 0:52:10.960 early stages in the US, like my impression of it was, 0:52:11.000 --> 0:52:13.880 it was just like it caught everyone off guard and 0:52:13.880 --> 0:52:15.279 it was just a bunch of rent and people and 0:52:15.280 --> 0:52:18.439 it's like they seemed so just like do it. Maybe 0:52:18.520 --> 0:52:21.520 maybe just by the fact that they were very coordinated 0:52:21.520 --> 0:52:23.200 and so it was it was just centralized, just sort 0:52:23.239 --> 0:52:28.319 of just by the nature of the fact that it 0:52:28.400 --> 0:52:30.720 was just a bunch of red and people. But then 0:52:31.360 --> 0:52:33.719 when you started getting these sort of like you had. 0:52:33.719 --> 0:52:37.239 We had another phase in Chicago that was it was 0:52:37.400 --> 0:52:39.160 like it worked really well, but it was there's there's 0:52:39.160 --> 0:52:40.880 like a bunch of anti statute protests and it was 0:52:40.880 --> 0:52:42.520 like the anti statue people would they were just like 0:52:42.600 --> 0:52:45.880 surround like a statue and they would just throw things 0:52:45.920 --> 0:52:48.640 at it. And that was very much more similar to Portland. 0:52:48.680 --> 0:52:51.279 I guess, so I don't know. Part of me is 0:52:51.280 --> 0:52:56.200 wondering whether it was like there's something about the organizational 0:52:56.200 --> 0:53:02.239 structure that in the States where that were people that 0:53:02.239 --> 0:53:04.960 that like heavily favors getting a bunch of people to 0:53:05.000 --> 0:53:06.719 go to one place and sitting there in a way 0:53:06.719 --> 0:53:09.480 that didn't happen in Hong Kong. I think it was 0:53:09.560 --> 0:53:12.400 that you there was a certain point in the protests 0:53:12.400 --> 0:53:14.759 in a number of US cities where you still had 0:53:14.800 --> 0:53:18.080 intense interest in people being out in the streets, but 0:53:18.440 --> 0:53:23.320 you hadn't had Number One, there wasn't necessarily a concerted, 0:53:23.360 --> 0:53:27.279 agreed upon list of demands, but also there wasn't a 0:53:27.320 --> 0:53:29.640 clear understanding of how to achieve them, Like you know, 0:53:29.719 --> 0:53:32.520 in Portland, there was a point where the hardcore folks, 0:53:32.600 --> 0:53:34.520 the folks showing up every night pretty much we're all 0:53:34.520 --> 0:53:36.600 in agreement that like, yeah, we don't want any more cops. 0:53:36.640 --> 0:53:38.640 But there was also not a white agreement. I'm like, well, 0:53:39.120 --> 0:53:41.839 how do we what's the path to that? Is? It? 0:53:41.920 --> 0:53:44.600 Is it showing up and trying to make their lives 0:53:44.640 --> 0:53:47.040 miserable every night? Like? Is it? There was kind of 0:53:47.080 --> 0:53:49.520 a there was a there was a point at which 0:53:50.080 --> 0:53:53.120 their motivation to be on the streets was there, but 0:53:53.920 --> 0:53:57.640 the understanding of like how to achieve the goals was not, 0:53:57.840 --> 0:54:01.960 and so folks were, um. You would see kind of 0:54:01.960 --> 0:54:05.560 the same thing being done a few times without without 0:54:05.560 --> 0:54:09.800 it necessarily making making progress, and eventually, you know, people 0:54:09.840 --> 0:54:12.279 didn't move on. But it was this this thing of like, 0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:15.920 I think what you need if you're going to actually 0:54:17.760 --> 0:54:23.200 forced through significant changes is um a continually evolving understanding 0:54:23.239 --> 0:54:26.840 of your goals and methods UM. And that's it's a 0:54:26.920 --> 0:54:29.320 really hard like I'm saying, this is what's necessary, I 0:54:29.400 --> 0:54:30.919 have no idea how to do that when you've got 0:54:30.960 --> 0:54:33.600 this very decentralized, large group of people out in the streets, 0:54:33.880 --> 0:54:36.879 you don't have you know, leaders or a central organization. 0:54:36.920 --> 0:54:39.520 In fact, having those things is going to endanger people 0:54:39.520 --> 0:54:42.719 in the movement because that stuff always gets infiltrated, you know, 0:54:42.920 --> 0:54:45.279 or or winds up to be in some other way problematic. 0:54:45.360 --> 0:54:48.600 So it's kind of I'm acknowledging this as a problem, 0:54:48.640 --> 0:54:50.520 and I don't want that to be like I'm pointing 0:54:50.520 --> 0:54:53.080 at like activists in Portland or activists and wherever and saying, 0:54:53.200 --> 0:54:55.080 you dummies didn't figure that. No one's figured it out. 0:54:55.080 --> 0:54:57.080 We don't know like nobody knows how to do this 0:54:57.160 --> 0:55:00.360 yet because it hasn't been done. Um, but that's clearly 0:55:00.360 --> 0:55:03.680 where I think you can see. That's where the problem 0:55:03.800 --> 0:55:06.920 is is that you you get these situations where there's motivation, 0:55:07.000 --> 0:55:08.799 people are willing to be out in the streets, but 0:55:08.840 --> 0:55:13.240 there's also not outside of being angry and in the streets, 0:55:13.280 --> 0:55:16.360 there's not necessarily clear understanding of like, well, how okay, 0:55:16.560 --> 0:55:20.040 how do we what what are we trying to achieve specifically? 0:55:20.120 --> 0:55:22.360 And how were we achieving it? Like how are we 0:55:22.400 --> 0:55:25.359 furthering that Golden Night? Yeah? Well I'm not sure if 0:55:25.520 --> 0:55:28.960 I mean, because eventually, you know, street fighting I don't 0:55:29.040 --> 0:55:31.000 not really like lost its luster, but people were just 0:55:31.080 --> 0:55:33.360 kind of like what is this doing in Hong Kong 0:55:33.560 --> 0:55:36.600 as well, And um, it's you know, eventually it stopped 0:55:36.600 --> 0:55:39.319 because all the all the kids were doing it were 0:55:39.360 --> 0:55:44.000 like traumatized or bodily you know, exhaustion or mental exhaustion 0:55:44.000 --> 0:55:46.239 and all those different things where they were all arrested. Right, 0:55:46.320 --> 0:55:49.680 so you know, there's it just kind of petered out 0:55:49.680 --> 0:55:52.520 like that. And I think the problem was that, you know, 0:55:53.239 --> 0:55:55.920 it was very anti CCP for for most of it, 0:55:55.960 --> 0:55:58.360 but then I think eventually it became just so anti 0:55:58.440 --> 0:56:02.560 police that um it. I think a lot of people 0:56:02.680 --> 0:56:06.719 kind of eventually lost sight of what yeah, like you're 0:56:06.719 --> 0:56:08.920 saying the goal was, or what what's the best way 0:56:08.960 --> 0:56:11.759 to achieve what we want? And if it was just 0:56:11.760 --> 0:56:14.120 continually attacking the police on the street, then it wasn't 0:56:14.239 --> 0:56:17.560 going to accomplish that what I mean, No, no, no, yeah, yeah. 0:56:17.560 --> 0:56:19.879 And I don't want any of this to come as 0:56:19.920 --> 0:56:22.719 like criticisms. It's more just like a well this, this 0:56:22.840 --> 0:56:27.160 didn't do it, you know, like they're still cops, right, 0:56:27.239 --> 0:56:29.000 like if that's if that is the goal and for 0:56:29.080 --> 0:56:31.480 some people, right for the broader tens of millions of 0:56:31.480 --> 0:56:33.480 Americans in the streets, there was never that kind of 0:56:33.480 --> 0:56:37.120 a consensus. It was much more muddled, but the dedicated activists, 0:56:37.120 --> 0:56:39.680 there was a consensus, but it also didn't it ain't 0:56:39.719 --> 0:56:41.920 done yet, So I think there is like there's a 0:56:41.920 --> 0:56:45.279 continuing question everybody needs to be asking themselves, just like, well, 0:56:45.480 --> 0:56:46.840 how do we get from A to B, you know, 0:56:47.160 --> 0:56:50.520 um or A to Z as the case maybe? Is 0:56:50.560 --> 0:56:53.839 there is there any uma places that people can go 0:56:54.000 --> 0:56:56.680 to learn more about this type of stuff online or 0:56:56.680 --> 0:57:00.640 any any like resources that you you would like to share. Yeah, 0:57:00.760 --> 0:57:03.320 I mean, of course, uh, you know, plug loss on 0:57:03.400 --> 0:57:05.480 in terms of our website, you can go to las 0:57:06.080 --> 0:57:08.840 h K and then all of our social media stuff 0:57:08.840 --> 0:57:11.880 like that. UM, I don't know. Yeah, if folks are 0:57:11.920 --> 0:57:16.680 more interested in We're trying to put together a uh 0:57:16.840 --> 0:57:22.200 kind of non status anti militarist coalition soon UM, and 0:57:22.240 --> 0:57:24.440 our first event is going to be hopefully in a 0:57:24.520 --> 0:57:28.400 month or so UM to try and provide some solutions 0:57:28.440 --> 0:57:31.720 to um what we see as kind of like anti 0:57:31.720 --> 0:57:34.480 war activism that is, like it's just about kind of 0:57:34.480 --> 0:57:37.920 marching from from A to B and then holding PSL 0:57:38.520 --> 0:57:41.080 signs and answer coalition signs and stuff like that. So 0:57:41.720 --> 0:57:43.920 I guess I'll just pre plug that for now and 0:57:44.000 --> 0:57:47.560 keep an eye on that. Great. Yeah, and thank you 0:57:47.640 --> 0:57:49.680 so much, for coming on and talking with us. Yes, 0:57:49.800 --> 0:57:53.720 thank you, Yeah, thanks for the invite. Happy to be 0:57:56.240 --> 0:57:58.440 this has been it could happen here talking about a 0:57:58.480 --> 0:58:02.880 place where it did in fact happen and then yeah 0:58:02.880 --> 0:58:06.280 it did, it didn't happen enough. Yeah, and it didn't 0:58:06.320 --> 0:58:09.720 happen enough here either, And a lot of questions in common, 0:58:10.000 --> 0:58:12.680 Like I hope nobody thinks when we say, like we're 0:58:12.680 --> 0:58:15.400 going to talk about how to you know, potentially come 0:58:15.440 --> 0:58:18.120 to agreements about a list of demands and even general 0:58:18.200 --> 0:58:21.160 strike that we're saying like here's the solution to this. 0:58:21.360 --> 0:58:24.040 Um I I've said a couple of times. I think 0:58:24.080 --> 0:58:28.560 the problem confronting as getting a mass movement to agree 0:58:29.320 --> 0:58:31.800 on a list of demands and then take mass concerted 0:58:31.840 --> 0:58:35.920 action to force them, like is a is a a 0:58:36.040 --> 0:58:41.680 cultural task, probably exceeding in difficulty the moon landing. Um 0:58:41.720 --> 0:58:43.680 So no, like we're not we're not coming here trying 0:58:43.720 --> 0:58:46.520 to say like here, but like here's what everyone needs 0:58:46.560 --> 0:58:48.360 to do. It's more of like, well, this is a 0:58:48.440 --> 0:58:51.280 question we all need to be asking ourselves, and I 0:58:51.320 --> 0:58:53.680 think our role in that is to be asking that 0:58:53.800 --> 0:58:56.720 question of some people who have spent a lot of 0:58:56.760 --> 0:59:02.080 time trying to practically ask that question another part of 0:59:02.080 --> 0:59:05.480 the world and learning what we can from that example, 0:59:05.680 --> 0:59:08.440 because we don't have a tremendous amount of time, so 0:59:08.480 --> 0:59:12.960 we should probably be studying. Yeah. You can find us 0:59:13.040 --> 0:59:16.080 on Twitter at Happened Here pod and cool Zone Media. 0:59:16.200 --> 0:59:19.280 You can listen to other episodes of it Could Happen 0:59:19.360 --> 0:59:23.280 Here um five days a week, Monday through Friday on 0:59:23.440 --> 0:59:26.640 this feed and other podcasts. You know where to find 0:59:26.680 --> 0:59:28.960 them behind the Bastards source you're ever that kind of stuff. 0:59:29.360 --> 0:59:31.919 Thank you for listening. We will We will be back 0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:34.240 in the next in the next day or after the weekend, 0:59:34.280 --> 0:59:46.160 whenever this airs allegedly. Allegedly it Could Happen Here is 0:59:46.200 --> 0:59:49.040 a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 0:59:49.080 --> 0:59:52.320 cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 0:59:52.440 --> 0:59:54.360 or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 0:59:54.400 --> 0:59:57.840 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 0:59:57.840 --> 1:00:00.000 find sources for It Could Happen Here updated a month 1:00:00.080 --> 1:00:02.800 Lee at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 1:00:02.880 --> 1:00:03.440 for listening.