1 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Worst Happenings Here Ever, Bastards pod shit. 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: I'm Robert evans Um. This is it could Happen here, 3 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: a daily podcast about the fact that everything seems to 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: be falling apart, and wouldn't it be nice if we 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 1: tried to do something better than the stuff that's falling apart? 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: That seems like a good idea. Huh do you agree 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: with me my my panel for today's episode? Yes, I 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: agree with that general concept. That's Garrison Davis. And who 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 1: else is agreeing with me today? That Christopher Wong is? 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: Is that Christopher Wong mildly agreeing, mildly agreeing, mildly agreeing. Wow, well, 11 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: that's extra disturbing because you you you you're in charge 12 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: of today's episode. So in brief, when we did our 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: first so you know, if you're new to the show, 14 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: come back check out the first five episodes of the show. 15 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: They're scripted Evergreen kind of layout our philosophy on the 16 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: crumbling of society and what to do next. But one 17 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: of the questions we had is, Okay, it kind of 18 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: seems like one of the only ways potentially forward without 19 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: just accepting that everything's going to keep falling apart is 20 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: some sort of big general strike that forces action on 21 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, things like climate that are are we can't 22 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: really wait on anymore. And of course one of the 23 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: big questions is, well, all right, you get a bunch 24 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: of people to agree to strike, how do you agree 25 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: what to do with the strike? How do you agree? 26 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: What like the terms are? You know, how do you 27 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: how do you put together a list of demands? How 28 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: do you get millions of people to agree to a 29 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: list of demands and then fight the government in order 30 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: to institute those demands? Um? And I don't know the 31 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: answer to that question. Um, but there are some people 32 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: in the world right now who did a version of 33 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: that in Hong Kong. And today we're going to talk 34 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: with someone who can talk to us about that process 35 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: and hopefully kind of give us some insight both and 36 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: how it worked and what didn't work over there, and 37 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: that might inform us on what we might do here 38 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: someday in the future. Uh, if you know that, that'd 39 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: be nice. Maybe did I get it right? Chris? Yeah, yeah, 40 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: this is yeah, that's good enough for that ringing endorsement. Yeah, 41 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: you know. Okay, So so to to to work more 42 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: of this out. Um, I've brought in j n who 43 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 1: is a writer, researcher and organizer with a Laosan collective. 44 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: Um he's currently be I said of Los Angeles and Jane, Okay, 45 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: do you do you want to talk a little bit 46 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: about what Lauson is and then also talk a bit 47 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 1: about how, you know, for people who've sort of forgotten, 48 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: weren't paying attention at the time, how the Hong Kong 49 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: protest started. Yeah. Sure, thanks thanks for having me excited 50 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: to be here and to talk about this kind of 51 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: stuff because I've been wanting to kind of you know, 52 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: talk about this and discuss the way things have gone 53 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: with the protests for a while. Um It's been hard 54 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: to find the time, I guess with our cascading crises 55 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: and whatnot. Um, but yeah, so I guess Lao Son. 56 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: I'll speak briefly about law Song, since you know, I'm 57 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: not speaking on behalf of the collective in this interview, 58 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: but just kind of like, um, talking about how we 59 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: started and then everything else after that is is kind 60 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: of just my view of things. UM. So Lawson has 61 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: members with kind of like different leftist orientations, um, from 62 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, anarchists to more social democratic um, and you know, 63 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: it's been a kind of a lot to work through, 64 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: as you can imagine. But I think it also that 65 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: also kind of reflects the necessity of our political condition, um, 66 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: which is that they're really you know, in my view, 67 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: there hasn't really been any internationalist groups that focus on 68 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: Hong Kong from those different perspectives um, at least for 69 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: me when I was growing up. Um, most of the 70 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: kind of like radical Hong Kong folks that I knew 71 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: would tend to just be uh, you know, we would 72 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: join different we would join other movements and stuff like that. 73 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: Like there was never anything that was Hong Kong centered, um. 74 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: And I guess stuff in the daspora, uh it's pretty conservative. 75 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: You know, the diasporad folks that I grew up with, 76 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: we're we're pretty conservative. So there wasn't that that kind 77 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: of avenue for organizing, unlike other kind of Asian dasper 78 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: groups like uh, Philipinos folks have like this kind of 79 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: very long history of radical das board organizing and I 80 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: don't really think Hong Kong has had that ever. So 81 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 1: I think that's why law Son is this kind of 82 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: very broad tent, big umbrella type of organ where we 83 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: try where we do kind of collect a lot of 84 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: folks who are you know, progressive, left leaning to to 85 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,559 Speaker 1: to otherwise. Um And but I I guess our general 86 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: orientation is the kind of neither Washington nor Beijing line 87 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: with with varying degrees of general anti statis um in 88 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: the mix. Um And I think, you know, I'm hopeful 89 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: that this is helping to build the foundation for more 90 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: of that in the Hong Kong diaspora and then hopefully 91 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: in the broader Asian dasper as I see it, since 92 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: I think the general divide tends to be kind of 93 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: like you know, radical Asian folks will be anti U 94 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: s imperiless, which is great, but then specifically do that 95 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: by expressing support for states elsewhere and um, you know 96 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: that can that can take good forms and bad forms 97 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: and whatnot. So um And I guess just really quick, 98 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: we we do both kind of organizing and writing and translation. 99 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: Those are kind of the three pillars of the group, 100 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: I guess, and the bedrock of our work is really 101 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: kind of aiming to create international solidarity with Left US 102 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: around the world to kind of amplify left his voices 103 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: in Hong Kong, but then also kind of create nonstate 104 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: centered connections across Asia, Southeast Asia and the Pacific. Yeah, 105 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: and how do you I mean, I think one of 106 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: the big questions that that keeps coming to me over 107 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: and over again is how do you overcome the how 108 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: do you overcome the resistance to internationals? And that's caused 109 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: by kind of I don't know, conspiracism may not be 110 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: exactly the right way to frame it, but this belief 111 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: that you know, your your struggle for liberation is really 112 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: just a c I, A OP or whatever like this 113 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: this this, this case of brain worms that keeps that 114 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: I see as a major barrier towards you know, kind 115 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: of functional internationalism in a lot of cases, particularly within 116 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: the United States. Um, what are some ways in which 117 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: you you've actually seen some luck in combating that? Yeah, 118 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's really the million dollar question, I think, 119 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: which is, like, you know, I think if we had 120 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: figured it out, it wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately, it's 121 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: growing problem growing. So in many ways, from one view 122 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: could say that it's we haven't been very successful in 123 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: combating that. But I think in some you know, some 124 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: of the leading groups in that camp you know, the 125 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: campus I think are very well funded and they have 126 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: very powerful connections. When you say campus, could you explain 127 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: that term briefly, because I don't think it's something and 128 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: certainly that's when we've talked about on the show, and 129 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: I think a lot of our listeners probably wouldn't be 130 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,559 Speaker 1: familiar with that. Yeah. Sure, I mean, I'm sure Chris 131 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: could speak much more about this. I feel like you 132 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: of your expertise is is kind of explaining these very 133 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: kind of deep left traditions and whatnot. But I guess 134 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: my understanding is is just very generally the campus will UM. 135 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: You know, it's like the anti imperialism that UM sees 136 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: the US as the kind of number one enemy and 137 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: everything kind of is is you know, they're the primary 138 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: contradiction I guess to use some malice terminology UM, and 139 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: that everything must be subordinated to that, to that cause 140 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: of like being against the U. S empire UM, And 141 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: usually that requires supporting what they see as uh, you know, 142 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: abbreviate as a as actually existing socialism UH states that 143 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: kind of use that that are nominally socialists, nominally communist 144 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: UM and use all the kind of like imagery and 145 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: trappings of that um to kind of like whole maintain 146 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: that political identity despite the kind of material reality of 147 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: their politics and economy and all that. So um, Yeah, 148 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: I can tell more about that later maybe, But I 149 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: think one thing that I've been chatting with a lot 150 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: of my kind of like uh, radical Asian friends, who 151 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: are you know, I I am very kind of obviously 152 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: against these campus because they are so veriantly against Hong Kong. 153 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: But you know, other folks that I've talked to have 154 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: have said, you know, they really kind of understand that 155 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: viewpoint in the sunset. It's a very emotional attachment, right. 156 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: It's like folks for you know, folks let's let's say 157 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: Vietnamese folks who uh their families were refugees and had 158 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: to come to the US because of the Vietnam War, 159 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: for example. Then you know when when you're the child 160 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: of refugees and you're like, why the hell am I 161 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: here in America, and then you start to kind of 162 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: like learn about the history and background of what happened, 163 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 1: then it makes sense that you would have this kind 164 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: of very emotional attachment to a s these actually existing 165 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: social states UM and those histories and those those radical 166 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: anti imperial histories and whatnot, despite the fact that you know, 167 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: clearly history has shown that they have either betrayed their 168 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: own movements or gone down in defeat and whatnot, which, 169 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: you know, I think there's two ways to react to that. 170 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: One is to kind of continue to cling to the fantasy, 171 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: and then one is to try and figure out what's next. Right, 172 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: It's like, how can we either revive that or continue 173 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 1: that in in the ways that makes sense in this world? Right? 174 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: And so I think, you know, I guess to answer 175 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: the initial question, I think it is a little bit 176 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 1: easier to for especially if we're like young, newly radicalized 177 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:47,119 Speaker 1: Asian folks, it's a little bit easier to maintain that fantasy. 178 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: And then, you know, I think the way that media, 179 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: you know, social media and online media has gone nowadays, 180 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: it's like it's becoming distilled into even like the most 181 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: simple and understand bowl like nuggets of that, so like 182 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: infographics and stuff like that. So I feel like that 183 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: entire ecosystem uh tries to make it so that people 184 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: do stay within that fantasy rather than trying to do 185 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: the harder work of like how do we extrapolate this 186 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: or how do we adapt this to our conditions? Now? Yeah, 187 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: and I think, you know, I can talk about this 188 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,719 Speaker 1: for a little like a brief amount because I don't 189 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: want to spend Jewish time. Yeah, I'm talking about these people, 190 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: but you know, like I think, like like one way 191 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 1: to look at them is so camp is um is 192 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: a thing from from the Cold War. Right. It's basically like, okay, 193 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: you pick you pick one of your like two maybe 194 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: three camps. If you come an online movement, it's like, okay, 195 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: you're really with the Soviets or with you with the Americans? Right, 196 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: And you know, part part of this happening here is 197 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: it's like that that's a very easy way to look 198 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: at the world. And this is this is why it's 199 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: so easy to sort of like condense it in infographics. Right, 200 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 1: It's like there's two sides. One of them is good, 201 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: one of them bad. But you know, this is like 202 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: the thing that's that's sort of the problem here is 203 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: that the Cold War is over, like it's done. It's 204 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: it's it's gone, right, the communist countries are gone. None 205 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: of the stuff, none of the stuff exists anymore. And 206 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: so you know, and it's it's very easy particular, particularly 207 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: for for the diaspor to sort of get stuck, suck 208 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: like back into the politics where well, okay, well well 209 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, hold on, there's a new Cold War. 210 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: The Cold War is happening again. It's all the same stuff, 211 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: and you can just sort of like tack all the 212 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: same symbols back on. But you know, it leads you 213 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: to down these pasts where you know, and this is 214 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: like like something Janna I think is dealt with a lot, 215 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: which is like, you know, when when when the protests 216 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: started happening in Hong Kong, all these people are like, oh, 217 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: this is all the CIA, and it's like not at all, 218 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's sort of yees. So it's they 219 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: they they come to see this world in a way 220 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: that's sort of purely conspiratorial and purely sort of based 221 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: in this old Cold War stuff that just doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, 222 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: I think part of the problem is that there's been 223 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: this consistent failure and this isn't even really a left 224 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: or right issue. This is like a a a culture 225 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: issue and kind of how to refer to places that 226 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: are outside of the US or sort of you know, 227 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: in the old days, the USSR is influence block. Like 228 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: you have terms like third world and now Global South, 229 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: and all of them are really um bad, bad terms 230 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: for kind And I'm We're going to try to have 231 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: Joey I U bon soon. But I've come to like 232 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: the term the periphery to refer to those states that 233 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: are kind of outside of or at least kind of 234 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: mingling influences from those you know, the major power blocks. 235 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: UM and I but it's it is um it I 236 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: think has led to this that kind of binary thinking 237 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: kind of the failure too. I think the complexity of 238 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: the actual global geopolitical situation leads to a failure, leads 239 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: to kind of a rejection of that complexity, in which 240 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: everything boils down to either pro or anti um socialism 241 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: or whatever on a lot of people's heads. And I 242 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: don't think that is a particularly good framework for making 243 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: good decisions. Yeah, absolutely, And yeah that that piece by 244 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: Joey is really amazing, And yeah, I think, you know, 245 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: I think the reason you know, a lot of times 246 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: folks are just kind of like, well, you know, these 247 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: these campus these tankis or whatever, it's just like they 248 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: have no real world impacts, so like just don't bother uh, 249 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: you know, don't don't spend too much time arguing with 250 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: them or whatever. But I guess the part that really 251 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: bothers me about all that is, I think what you're 252 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: kind of just saying, Robert, is like it's reducing the 253 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: complexity of places outside the US so much that it's dehumanizing. Right. 254 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: It's just like people in Hong Kong aren't full humans 255 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: to these people because they see it's like the c 256 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: I you can just kind of parachute one or two 257 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: people in and lead like a two million person march, right, 258 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: as if Hong Kong people have no political agency of 259 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 1: their own or you know, understandings of how complex their 260 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,119 Speaker 1: own situation is, right, just this kind of interimperial entanglement 261 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: that they're stuck in. So you know, there's this book 262 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: called Nothing Ever Dies by Vieton Win that I would 263 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: really recommend folks read, and I wish a lot of 264 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: these folks would read it too, because you know, his 265 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: he's talking about memory in the Vietnam War. But I 266 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: think the thing that really stuck out to me and 267 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: that in that framework that he develops is like, you know, 268 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: everyone is capable of doing right and wrong, and uh, 269 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: it's it's the way that we remember things like the 270 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: Vietnam War, for example, there are always good and bad 271 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: sides that people UM each side will deploy those different 272 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: types of memory in order to like villainize others and 273 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: uh lionize themselves, right. And then so I guess you know, 274 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: he sees the true task as being able to recognize UM, 275 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: the agency of all of us to do good and 276 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: bad UM, and that that earned him a lot of 277 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: hate within the Vietnamese community, I think, right, because you're 278 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: encouraged to you know, in southern California, you're encouraged to 279 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: be very anti communist in Orange County, that that community, 280 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: because that's the southern Vietnamese to Aspera. And then uh, 281 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: you know, people in Vietnam saw him as as still 282 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: kind of like this this compromised person who lives in 283 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: the US. The Vietnamese to Aspera. So it's it's kind 284 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: of like, you know, no way to win there, and 285 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of residents with that in 286 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: the Hong Kong ASPMA as well. I kind of want 287 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: to move us along if I can to actually talking 288 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: about UM the five demands and sort of the process 289 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: by which first off like, how you know, and this 290 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: is a thing that like a lot of people who 291 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: marched in the streets during the Black Lives Matter protests 292 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: last year, the uprisings whatever you want to call them, um, 293 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: we kind of kept running into this wall of well 294 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: what do we what do we want? And a lot 295 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: of folks were like, well, we want no police. But 296 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: also a lot of folks were like, well we just 297 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: want to defund or right, and we just want to 298 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: reform the police. And even some of those folks were like, 299 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: we want to reform the police by giving them more 300 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: money and they'll hopefully kill less people. Like it was, 301 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: it was, um, you know, I'm trying to speak abroad here, right. 302 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: There were different local kind of movements and organizations that 303 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: were more specific, but you had this tremendous amount of 304 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: energy and precedent amount of energy out in the streets. Um, 305 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: but you did not have concerted demands. I think the 306 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: anchor was pretty concerned. I think everybody was more or 307 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: less pissed about the right things. But there was not 308 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: there was at no point did did we come together 309 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: I think in a meaningful way on a big enough 310 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: scale to to force to force into the mainstream of 311 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: very specific set of demands. Um. And that's not even 312 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: really a criticism, it's just an acknowledgement of the reality, right. Um. 313 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: Whereas in Hong Kong, I think one of the things 314 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: that was really successful was the messaging, the way that 315 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: kind of the messaging of the movement united around these 316 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: initially five demands, which I think was very successful. And 317 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious, first off, how did that come about. 318 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: It really did kind of take center stage very quickly, 319 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: I think, and I think some people maybe we're a 320 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 1: little bit surprised by that, but um, it did. I 321 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: think it. You know, it really kind of crystallized around 322 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: because you know, the big protests happened kind of like 323 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: June nine, um, and it was just like millions of 324 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: people on the street, and you know, the protests were 325 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: so singular in many ways, like it was the biggest 326 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: political mobilization in Hong Kong history. Um. And that had 327 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: been kind of just like been boiling for the past 328 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: like decade before that, And I think it was just 329 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: the atmosphere was was kind of like crystallized in the 330 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,479 Speaker 1: sense that everyone like just everyone was scared of what 331 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: the CCP was going to do next. And I think 332 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: that created this kind of common understanding for people to 333 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: come together very quickly and easily around these uh, these 334 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: five demands. And you know, on June June twelfth was 335 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: when there was like the first really big escalation of 336 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: police brutality um, and people were kind of like, you know, 337 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: police kettled people inside buildings and then tear gas them, 338 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: which was just like the most outrageous thing. And you know, 339 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: a lot of Hong Kong's either were formerly not they 340 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: didn't really care much about politics, or they didn't really 341 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: care much about police violence because you know, that's been 342 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: going on for a very long time against marginalized people 343 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: in Hong Kong. But I think just the fact that 344 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: I happened to the certain set of protesters, um, non 345 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: violent protesters at that time, UM, that was one of 346 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: the really big kind of like breaking points. And then 347 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: on June fift there was there was a protester called 348 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: Marco Lung and he had set up on a scaffolding 349 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: at the top of like a really tall shopping mall 350 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: in this yellow rain code, and he had a banner 351 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: that had some of these demands on the banner. UM. 352 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: And then you know, eventually he fell off the scaffold 353 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: and died, and that was really kind of like, you know, 354 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: wake up call to a lot of people about how 355 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: dire people were feeling about this. So there was a 356 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: lot of emotion behind it that allowed people to come together, 357 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: um around these five demands, you know, so like full 358 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: withdrawal the bill, retraction of the characterization that the protests 359 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: were riots, anesty for for arrested protesters, establishment of you know, 360 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: some commission into police abuse, and then uh, Carrie Lamb resigning, 361 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: and universal suffrage. So it was it's a really interesting 362 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: set of five demands, and I think, I guess to 363 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: get to your question, I think it runs the gamut 364 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: between like very doable too not so doable, I guess, right, Like, uh, 365 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: the universal suffrage, when I think is like, you know, 366 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 1: that's there because that's been the demand from Hong Konger's 367 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: for like a very long time, at least a decade 368 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: before that. So but then you know, I think that 369 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: it's not. I don't think anyone I've really thought that 370 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: was going to happen. The government was never going to 371 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: concede to that. But uh, you know, the very first amount, 372 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: full with drawal, of the bill was very doable, and 373 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: it did end up happening very soon after the death 374 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: of Marko Lung Right, So, um, I don't know, I 375 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: don't know if that helps answer the question a little bit. 376 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: Is just like the five demands, Uh, we're we're very 377 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: pragmatic in some ways but then also aspirational in other ways, 378 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: and that that gave a lot of different people different 379 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: avenues to like come into it. And there was I 380 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 1: as I understand, there was like an app right, like, 381 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: can we talk a little bit more about like the 382 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: kind of methods by which I mean it was that 383 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: more forum actually voting on actions or was that one 384 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 1: of the ways in which demands were kind of arrived 385 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: at as well? Yeah, so there's it wasn't I mean, 386 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: it was telegram. A lot of people use telegrams, but um, 387 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: you know l I h k G, which is like 388 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: a really popular Internet forum. I guess kind of the 389 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: equivalent is something like reddit um. And you know, I 390 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,959 Speaker 1: wouldn't say that they were kind of like the centralized 391 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: site for where like decisions were like made an issued 392 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: from there, but it was the kind of most active 393 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: site where people would go to discuss strategy tactics and 394 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: debate things. Um. And you know, this might get to 395 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: some later questions about like the role of the right 396 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: wing and all this, but I would say that the 397 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: overall character of the forum was slightly more you know, 398 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: right leaning, or at least they were sympathetic to that 399 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: to that position, right. So I think in that way, UM, 400 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: that might be how things eventually, like you know, a 401 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: year and a half later, started moving more towards the 402 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: right um through that forum. Yeah, but there was never like, 403 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: you know, there was never like, oh, okay, we're gonna 404 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: run a poll and then whatever the decision of this is, 405 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: that's going to side what we do tomorrow. Like, it 406 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: was never that formalized, um. And you know, it was 407 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: decentralized in the sense that people would discuss what would 408 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: be the best tactic and then you could just like 409 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: split off into like affinity groups and then you could 410 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: choose to follow that if you want the next day 411 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: or or or not right and a lot of times 412 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: it was like people would be making these decisions on 413 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,959 Speaker 1: the fly the day of, at the front lines on 414 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: those telegram groups and stuff. And how was it that, Um, 415 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: I guess the question I'm trying to answer for myself 416 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 1: is like it seems like, you know, for a movement 417 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: that was in it, you know, it internally had a 418 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: lot of ideological diversity and a lot of disagreement. It 419 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: seems like there was more of a concerted agreement about 420 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: goals in Hong Kong UM than I've seen in anything, 421 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 1: you know, uh, state side in my life. And I'm 422 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: kind of wondering how that process of consensus or if 423 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: I or if I'm even kind of approaching it from 424 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: the wrong perspective by thinking that there was that white 425 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: a consensus. Maybe that's something that just reached out internationally. 426 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: I guess. I mean, I can talk a little bit 427 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: about kind of like what decentralization meant in Hong Kong 428 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: and the wider context of like the political culture there, 429 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: because like I was saying, like the protests in twenty 430 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: nineteen were really singular in the sunset like um, it 431 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: was like a really big cultural shift from previous political 432 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: events in Hong Kong. So like occupied, the Occupied Central 433 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: Movement inteen that morphed into the Umbrella movement UM was 434 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,959 Speaker 1: this kind of like Sunday nine day occupation of like 435 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: different parts of the city. But like most notably the 436 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: central banking areas. And it was it was like very 437 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: much led by student protests groups, you know, like Joshua 438 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: Wong and all the all the other people that you 439 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: would have heard of, um. And then also these kind 440 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: of like old guard political parties, and they were the 441 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: ones kind of literally on a stage kind of like issuing, Okay, 442 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: this is what we should all do. But we've we've 443 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: come to our analysis and these are the best decisions. 444 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: And you know, the the Umbrella Movement was, you know, 445 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: from one perspective, from from just kind of the pragmatic 446 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: perspective of like achieving its goals. Like it just a 447 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: complete failure, right. It was just seventy nine days occupation 448 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: and they were just like swept away by the police. 449 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: And but you know, I think that the consciousness of 450 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 1: what happened, which was just like we're gonna sit here 451 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: and then we're gonna have leaders tell us what to do. 452 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: I think that really kind of affected people when the 453 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: Umbrella Movement collapsed. And you know, in in that five 454 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: years afterwards, as the CCP was kind of like ramping 455 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: up its repression. UM, that's what was kind of like 456 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: the light switch for people was like, we can't replicate 457 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: this kind of like follow the leaders style thing anymore. Um. 458 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: And you know the movements before that too was like 459 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: the occupied There was an occupied Central in twelve as well, 460 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: you know, obviously to coincide with Global occupy. That was 461 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: also this kind of like we're all just going to 462 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: camp out here at the plaza beneath hsp SEE headquarters, 463 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: and um, there was there was kind of like the 464 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: Occupy Wall Street type of like trying to build consensus 465 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: and decision making there. Um. But I think it was 466 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: so it was like so hemmed in based on the 467 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: act of occupation. Um. That that's why you know, people 468 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,360 Speaker 1: also learned from that that just you know, camping out 469 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 1: is not really going to do anything in the Hong 470 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 1: Kong context. Um. And then that's where all this kind 471 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: of like decentralization be water and the fluidity and all 472 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: that stuff. That's where that sprang out of. So so 473 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: I guess if I'm understanding this right, the demands kind 474 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: of had been like floating around and then you have 475 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: the sort of political conscious as you have all of 476 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: this stuff anger crystallizing. And then is it accurate to 477 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: say that when Marcael young fell from the building, like 478 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,239 Speaker 1: holding the signs like that. That's how it's sort of 479 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: like became officialized, like the sort of the rage around 480 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: that like crystallize it into a thing. They were issued. 481 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: I mean, the demands like existed before that, but I 482 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: think the when Marco died, that's when like that gave 483 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people who were either kind of like um, 484 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: either apathetic or they like didn't really agree or you know, 485 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: they saw no way to like kind of participate in 486 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: what became just kind of like it was just like 487 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: every you know, eventually everyone had an avenue into this, 488 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: into the movement. UM. I think that's what crystallized that, right, 489 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: and it made the demands accessible to everyone. So I 490 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: guess I guess the question is just like where did 491 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: they come from? Like who actually like rope them? Yeah? Yeah, 492 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: I mean that would have taken place on the on 493 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: l I h KG right, And as far as I know, 494 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: no one, there's no like authorship or ownership over them. UM. 495 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: People are anonymous on that forum, right, So in that way, 496 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: it's like somewhat like four Chad like UM. And yeah, 497 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: I mean there was definitely voting on all h KG 498 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: UM and I would assume at some point that happened 499 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: to bring the five demands together. So there's another thing 500 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:26,479 Speaker 1: I think that that watching it from the outside was 501 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: really interesting about the protest that like very much did 502 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: that does not happen in the US. Which was the 503 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: way that the sort of more militant factions who are 504 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 1: willing to fight the police for like main developed and 505 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: maintained like a working relationship with the not the very 506 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 1: nonviolent factions. And it might understanding it was to sort 507 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: of solidifies after the storm of the Legislative Council. Um, 508 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: could you talk about that a bit more and like 509 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: is that actually like is that what happened? And how 510 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: how did that actually happen? Because that seems like a 511 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: very important moment. It just hasn't happened in the US. Yeah, 512 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: I think it's I mean, the way that that happened, 513 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: I think was just so um like there were so 514 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: many factors, um, that enabled that to happen. Because yeah, 515 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: for the longest time, like in those previous movements, especially 516 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: the Umbrella um, the Umbrella movement, and then in SI 517 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: there was something called the Fishball riots, which was like, um, 518 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: you know, police were police and government officials were trying 519 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: to like clear out street vendors because of like licensing 520 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: issues or whatever. And then you know, just a whole 521 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: bunch of kind of like radical folks. They're kind of 522 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: like independence leaning uh folks, politicians and stuff. Um, you know, 523 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: kind of flat back on that, and it became violent. 524 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: And you know, that was that was when the one 525 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: of the protest luminaries, Edward Luang was was he came 526 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: up with that that that kind of slogan, the free 527 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: Hong Kong Revolution of our time slogan. That's when he 528 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: was in prison and after that the fish Ball riots. 529 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: But um, so there had been this kind of like 530 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: push and pull or like tension between the moderates and 531 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: the um violent militant factions for quite some time. And 532 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: so I think a lot of people saw the Umbrella 533 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: movement and it's it's kind of non success as being 534 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: attributed to the moderates, right, and so there was I 535 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: think there was a general mood that things had to change. Um. 536 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: But then I think the fact that I would say 537 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: again the overarching thing that enabled people to come together 538 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: was this kind of everything has to be against like 539 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: we we had to put everything we have against the CCP. Right, So, um, 540 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: there was a lot of kind of like power struggle 541 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: and like um divisiveness uh during the Umbrella movement of 542 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: people trying to like um, have their view you know, 543 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: their political analysis or their strategies and tactics take precedence, 544 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: and a lot of people saw that as just kind 545 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: of like pointless squabbling or like divisiveness that the government 546 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: was able to use to like um, you know, defeat 547 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: the movement. Right. So I think all those things informed 548 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: what was having there. And then there were two kind 549 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: of like overriding philosophies in the movement. So one was 550 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: like the idea of like having no big stage, that's 551 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: what it was called, and so that was like not 552 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: taking any uh, not having protest leaders, not having people 553 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: make the decisions up top. And the second thing was 554 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: this idiom like called brothers climbing the mountain um, which 555 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: basically means like we're all climbing the same mountain of 556 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: trying to defeat the CCP. It doesn't matter how we're 557 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: doing it. So there was this really kind of like, uh, 558 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: the question of method uh and means was really kind 559 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: of put into the backseat. It was all just kind 560 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: of about the end goal UM. And you know, there 561 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: was that kind of related idiom of like not cutting Matt, 562 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: which means like even if you have different and those 563 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: with folks in terms of like how you choose to 564 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,719 Speaker 1: go about contributing to the movement, uh, you never severed 565 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: ties with people over this, and so those are the 566 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: two kind of overwriting philosophies in the movement. And I 567 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: think it was definitely very helpful in in keeping this 568 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: kind of like movement unity, but it definitely had its 569 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: drawbacks eventually in terms of like decentralization. I can talk 570 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,959 Speaker 1: more about that later or I can talk about it now. 571 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, no, sorry, I was yeah, I'm 572 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: I'm I would like that. So, you know, in terms 573 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: of decentralization, I think it was it was just kind 574 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: of like in the right place at the right time 575 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,959 Speaker 1: for for Hong Kongers. I think, you know, they were 576 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: very fed up with with all the ways that things 577 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: had gone before, and so a lot of people were 578 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,719 Speaker 1: more open to trying this out. And I think the 579 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: fact that you know, there was a lot of fear 580 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: around surveillance UM and and whatnot at the time in 581 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 1: Hong Kong, and obviously it's gotten much worse, but you know, 582 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: so everyone there was never really the kind of that 583 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: overriding fear in the umbrella movement or the occupy movements 584 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: of like having to stay anonymous or whatever, Whereas here, 585 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: I guess the fact that it just went hand in 586 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: hand with UM taking more militant actions that a lot 587 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: of people kind of. I think the really interesting part 588 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: is is so much of the what happened in decentralized 589 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: decentralizing UM, you know, the political culture in Hong Kong 590 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: was that it adopted a lot of leftist tactics UM 591 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: you know, obviously like black block and stuff without you know, 592 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: I think the word leftism or leftist in Hong Kong 593 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: is like it's like you don't touch it, right because 594 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: it's there's no way to dissociate it from from the 595 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: CCP and Hong Kong's minds, which is it's very topsy turvy, right, 596 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: because there's nothing leftist about the CCP as it stands 597 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: right now. But it's it's very hard to convince folks 598 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: there of that. And so it's very interesting the way 599 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: that people were able to adopt like the tactic and 600 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: strategies without any of the ideological underpinnings to it. UM. 601 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: And so you know, the no big stage and the 602 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: brothers Climbing Mountain um. That eventually became a way to 603 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: shut down dissent, right because any time people wanted to 604 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: have like principal debate, principled debate or two talk strategy 605 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: or to question the way things were going, then that 606 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, that philosophy would be kind of trotted out 607 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: and you would be you could be accused of like 608 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: undermining movement unity and whatnot. And you know, I think 609 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: people were so fearful of either being accused of that 610 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: or of or or of causing that, right, Like, I 611 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: don't think anyone wanted the movement to fragment, right, but um, 612 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: people were so averse to doing that, that those two 613 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: philosophies really became a way to silence UM any other 614 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: thing other than what is dominant in the movement. And 615 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: that eventually became you know, the exclusionary, xenophobic like pro 616 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: Trump thing, you know, in the tail end of after 617 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: COVID and a lot of stuff. So that's how I 618 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: see it going down. Yeah, yeah, and it is this, UM, 619 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: I think there's this problem. You saw versions of it 620 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: in Ukraine too, where As the as a movement kind 621 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,839 Speaker 1: of predicated on confronting the government goes on and as 622 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: the clashes get more violent, kind of the right wing 623 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: UM picks up influence because those kind of folks tend 624 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: to be more prepared for the for the fighting. Yeah, exactly. 625 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 1: And I mean there's never been any kind of like, 626 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, there there's no kind of conclusiveness about 627 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: the ideology of the front liners, like the more militant 628 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: folks UM, but I think there's there's kind of a 629 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: general sense that a lot of the front liners were 630 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: UM a little bit more if not right wing, then 631 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: they were more sympathetic to the to that right because 632 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: if they were fired up enough to like, you know, 633 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: do that kind of street fighting, then likely their their 634 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: view of China is like, you know, along the more 635 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: kind of xenophobic and uh nativist wavelength. One of the 636 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: struggles I think is that um, you know, for the 637 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: kind of for the goals as they were kind of 638 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: hallucidated of the Hong Kong movement, that could have worked, 639 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: but it also like you know that that would have 640 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: eventually provided a problem when it came to the whole 641 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: figuring out what to do next? Thing? Right, Like, there's 642 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: only there's there's kind of a limited extent to which 643 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: those tendencies can potentially coexist. Um, And it is one 644 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: of those things you have to think about, like if 645 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: you happen to get a broad movement, you know what. 646 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: Like again looking at Ukraine, Um, there there's been this 647 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: kind of very awkward compromise with the far right, which 648 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: is a minority party, but like that compromise has led 649 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: to some very ugly things happening over there, including like 650 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 1: the arming of a kind of a militant neo Nazi movement, 651 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: which is like yeah, and I don't know, like when 652 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: you're there in the moment and you're just trying to 653 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: deal with the state, Um, I don't know how you 654 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: entirely avoid that, right because you need frontliners and if 655 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: some of those folks believe fucked up ship but they're 656 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: going up against the cops, like, what are you going 657 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: to do? Exactly? And I mean, I guess it's I 658 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: don't think it's any small coincidence that you know, those 659 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: those kind of like fascist Ukrainian people showed up at 660 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: the Hong Kong protests, right, Um, And you know, I 661 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: think a lot of the front liners who like took 662 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: photos with them and stuff, had no idea who the 663 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: hell they were, right, They're just like hey, Like I 664 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: think that the overriding sentiment was like anyone who's who's 665 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: going to like show us support? Is that's good for 666 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 1: us because we want this a global visibility to put 667 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: pressure on China. That was just how basic it was 668 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: and very understandable. And you know, so obviously those images 669 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: were trotted out all over uh you know, Twitter and 670 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: stuff to show Okay, well Hong kongers or fascist and 671 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 1: and whatnot. But yeah, I think it's it's much more complex, 672 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: Like you were saying, it's just like when when you're there, 673 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: what do you do. It's like, you're not gonna stop 674 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: front liners while they're fighting the cops to like have 675 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: principal debate, right, And at some point it's just like, 676 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: when is that going to happen? And I think the 677 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: l I h KG as a as an internet forum, 678 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: I think, um, in some ways it could make that 679 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: very possible, but in other ways, I think it makes 680 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 1: it much more difficult, right, because you're you're having these 681 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: discussions with anonymous people who don't you know, Obviously, if 682 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: you're anonymous on a forum, it it kind of like 683 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: gets rid of so many uh boundaries of like accountability 684 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: and um, how you would treat each other with respect 685 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: in a debate about your shared goals and of right. So, 686 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: you know, I think decentralization was very important to Hong 687 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: Kong in that moment. But I think the right wing folks, 688 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: you know, who are a very small minority, I think 689 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 1: they were able to instrumentalize those two philosophies very well 690 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 1: and manipulated very well to like position themselves as like 691 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,720 Speaker 1: the true inheritors of the movement by you know, forcing 692 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: through this idea that they were the ones that were 693 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: protecting these kind of like secret principles of like unity 694 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: movement unity and no splitting and and all that stuff, right. 695 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: And you know, I think what I've heard from from 696 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: leftist folks over there is that, you know, obviously the 697 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: left is very marginalized in Hong Kong, but what I've 698 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 1: heard from leftist folks is that just like no one 699 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: had the means, either the means or the heart to 700 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: fight back against that, because I think the conditions just 701 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 1: weren't right. You know, the people were living in such 702 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: like everyone felt like they were steeped in this daily 703 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: kind of like extremity, that everything was just like crisis mode. UM, 704 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: and to ask people to slow down or to like 705 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: take non extreme measures became extremely difficult. UM. And I 706 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: can totally understand that. Yeah, I mean that's something UM. 707 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: I mean, that's something we've seen in Portland to just 708 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,439 Speaker 1: this UM. Not with the right wing so much, because 709 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: there's obviously has never been really any collaboration between right 710 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: and left in the but but with this kind of UM. 711 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: If what you're suggesting isn't more extreme than what's been 712 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 1: done before, UM, then why would we listen to it? 713 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,800 Speaker 1: You know, this UM, which is I think a product 714 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 1: of trauma as much as anything else. And I don't 715 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: know like that I think is one of the things 716 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: you have to solve if you're actually going to like win, UM, 717 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: which obviously you know, winning is a separate matter altogether, 718 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: like we've got. I think there's a lot of lessons 719 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: in what happened in Hong Kong, UM. And one of 720 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: those lessons is that it's pretty easy for the state 721 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,839 Speaker 1: to win. Yeah. And I forgot to mention this before 722 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,479 Speaker 1: we were talking about the five demands. But I guess, 723 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: just just to jump back really quickly, I mean, there 724 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: was that there was a sixth demand, right, and um, 725 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: you know that that cropped up around October two one, 726 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: like a cop shot a teenager with the live round 727 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: and you know, the cropped up for obvious reasons because 728 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: of that um in in protest chance all over the place. 729 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 1: But that never crystallized into like a quote unquote official thing, 730 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 1: right because I think there was still that kind of 731 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: barrier to the idea of police abolish and uh for 732 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: a lot of folks, I guess, and because it's the 733 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: it's the first time, you know, this is the only 734 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:49,879 Speaker 1: or I guess this is the time in Hong Kong 735 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: where the most people have had the most anti police 736 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: sentiment in its history. Right Yeah, Um, like people kind 737 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: of like disapprove of, you know, how the police conducted 738 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: themselves or whatever during the protests. So, um, it's I 739 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: think it's a start. I think it's a good place 740 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: for to like plant the seeds of abolition. But I 741 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: think that that kind of shows the dynamics of like 742 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 1: what became official and then what became what couldn't become 743 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 1: official in terms of those demands. Um, and I you know, 744 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: because I'm I'm assuming on l I h KG. It's 745 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: like a closed forum, so you can't you can't join 746 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: and discuss if you don't have like a university address 747 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: or whatever. So that's why I wasn't on there Hong 748 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 1: Kong University address. Um. There was tons of debate there 749 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 1: about you know, this idea of police abolition, but I 750 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,280 Speaker 1: think it eventually. Also, this is kind of a similar 751 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: thing between the abolished the police or defund the police 752 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: debate here, which is like a lot of people saw 753 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,400 Speaker 1: the sixth demand as reform, like we should just like 754 00:41:54,480 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: fire every single cop and then rehire like the entire force, right, 755 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: and they thought we just need to clean house. That's 756 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: like the bad Apples thing, right, And then other people 757 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 1: saw that as more like we need to actually confront 758 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: the practice of policing, practice and concept of policing. So, um, 759 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 1: I guess because there was that divisiveness over what abolition means, 760 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: abolition or reform, then yeah, that's why it never took 761 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: root as something official. I guess. There is one thing, 762 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 1: which is that you know, we saw some of this 763 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: like spread to the US. But the way that I 764 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: guess could you talk a bit about how this sort 765 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: of like the how the like street fighting tactics spread 766 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:55,839 Speaker 1: because I know, I mean but both both how they 767 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: developed inside the movement then, you know, because after that, 768 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I remember there are these protests Indonesia in 769 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, and like those people were also you know, 770 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: they were doing the like water stuff and that formulas 771 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 1: or to spread really quickly. But I'm exciting and I 772 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,239 Speaker 1: know also that like there there I saw some of 773 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: these like they had these like really detailed infographics on 774 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: like like you know, this is this is how you 775 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 1: form people on a line. This is everyone's roles, is 776 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 1: what equipment you need? So how did that stuff like 777 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 1: appear And was it just spreading a telegram or yeah? 778 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: I think, um, And I think that's one of the 779 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,239 Speaker 1: ways I guess this kind of connects actually to the 780 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,359 Speaker 1: very first question was, which is like how do we 781 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: confront or like try and deal with this the campus, 782 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: which is like one of the ways we tried to 783 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 1: approach it through lou Song was just kind of like 784 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: this exchange of tactics actually is something that we can 785 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:55,399 Speaker 1: share transnationally. Um, because obviously states are collaborating in terms 786 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: of exchanging strategies and weapons and ammunitions and a lot 787 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: of stuff. So we should be kind of collaborating in 788 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: the same way. And I think that's something that Hong 789 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: Kong had to offer the world, um, in terms of 790 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: how that actually happened. Um, it's kind of interesting, right 791 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: because I was saying earlier how I feel like a 792 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: lot of the protesters adopted black block without adopting any 793 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: of the ideology. Um. And then maybe it was I 794 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,240 Speaker 1: think that's seeing that similarity for a lot of folks online, 795 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,839 Speaker 1: Like I think it was, it was all like viral videos, right, Um, 796 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: that people would just encounter on their timelines without any 797 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 1: real context of like what the hell was happening in 798 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: Hong Kong. Uh. You know, seeing seeing like clearly young 799 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: young kids like putting out tear gas canisters with pylons 800 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 1: and water and stuff is just like that's something immediately 801 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,799 Speaker 1: that you learned within thirty seconds that you don't have 802 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 1: to like I don't agree with their aims or I 803 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: don't agree with any of that. And um, you know, 804 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,319 Speaker 1: using the umbrellas to block out security cameras and and 805 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: all that, and and tear gas and stuff is just 806 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 1: like these things are so portable visually, and like we 807 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: were saying before in terms of infographics, where there's drawbacks 808 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: to that, I think it's like the thirty second clip 809 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: on like TikTok or or Twitter or whatever happens to be. 810 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 1: It's like that is the flip side of how social 811 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,000 Speaker 1: media is actually fucking amazing, right, because it's just like 812 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: you're getting this instant kind of political education and also 813 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 1: like street fighting education. Um, just like that and without 814 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,359 Speaker 1: without actually seeking it out, right, because I think that's 815 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: the key part. Um. People who might be predisposed to 816 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,800 Speaker 1: being against what Hong Kong is trying to do or 817 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: what they stand for, and that type of thing, um, 818 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,360 Speaker 1: you know, Falselier or otherwise, UM might just that that 819 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 1: might just like be retweeted onto their timeline. And I 820 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: think that's that's the kind of beautiful thing about Twitter 821 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: that I really love. UM. And I'm pretty sure that's 822 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,320 Speaker 1: how it spread. I don't you know. Laosan tried to 823 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: put on these these formal exchanges where we would talk 824 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,839 Speaker 1: more about that, UM, but I'm pretty sure that at 825 00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,879 Speaker 1: all it was mostly all just viral. Yeah. Yeah, even 826 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: mainstream media was picking up stuff up and show sharing 827 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,919 Speaker 1: those videos because they want the clicks and they want them. Yeah, 828 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,319 Speaker 1: I think they're really hitting on something there with the 829 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,040 Speaker 1: spread of visual information, because that's that's something we definitely 830 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,839 Speaker 1: saw last year in the States is a lot of 831 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 1: people who were newer to protesting picking up on the 832 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: visual cues that they saw from Hong Kong coverage and 833 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 1: trying to replicate it um And for a lot of 834 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 1: the time it didn't actually work out that well. Like 835 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: like remember like the first few weeks in Portland, we 836 00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: would see people like carrying around pylons but not knowing 837 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:38,839 Speaker 1: no what, not really knowing what to do with them, 838 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,799 Speaker 1: just because they saw people do this before online. And 839 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,320 Speaker 1: then after a while we started to see them slowly 840 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 1: figure out how to actually extinguish tear gas canisters loafing 841 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: with like leafblowers and stuff. We see it like they 842 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,000 Speaker 1: first used the rhetoric, they first used kind of the aesthetics, 843 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,279 Speaker 1: and then slowly they learned the actual practical skills um. 844 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: Because you can't just learn something by watching, you have 845 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,239 Speaker 1: to also kind of do it. I mean it's it's 846 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,239 Speaker 1: it's trickier. You sometimes can, but you generally kind of 847 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 1: have to practice skill as well. We saw that a 848 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,279 Speaker 1: lot and one thing that people never really learned how 849 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 1: to do well, but they kept the rhetoric of it 850 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: is the whole like b water thing. That's something that 851 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 1: no one really figured out, at least here in Portland. 852 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,439 Speaker 1: It was like it would get chanted a lot, people 853 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: would say it, but like it didn't actually do You 854 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: weren't actually doing anything. Um. And I think that it's 855 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:31,240 Speaker 1: kind of like that. It's kind of the flip side 856 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: of having something so reliant on like info graphics and 857 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,400 Speaker 1: just like viral footage, is that you'll think you're prepared 858 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:40,880 Speaker 1: for something because you've seen it, and then when you're 859 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,960 Speaker 1: actually doing the thing, you're like, oh, this is actually 860 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 1: a very different than sitting in my bed scrolling through Twitter. 861 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: Of this is like it's a whole it's a whole 862 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: different thing. Um. But still it's it's still like incredibly useful. 863 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:54,840 Speaker 1: Right to have to have that base knowledge in the 864 00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,400 Speaker 1: first place, is it's very useful, but you have to remember, 865 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,840 Speaker 1: like you you can't just think that you can watch 866 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: it and then go do it immediately. And I was wondering, 867 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,280 Speaker 1: like from from your perspective, when you saw stuff happening 868 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,359 Speaker 1: in the States last year, and we saw a lot 869 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,040 Speaker 1: of you know, like a lot of like aesthetic mirrors 870 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 1: of the Hong Kong protests. Were there anything, Was there 871 00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,520 Speaker 1: anything that you think people really succeeded in or was 872 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: there stuff that you think people kind of tried to 873 00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,200 Speaker 1: replicate but kind of failed at. I mean, that's a 874 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,120 Speaker 1: really good point, and I think that kind of gets 875 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,400 Speaker 1: to what Chris was asking as well, in terms of 876 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 1: just like I feel like there had to be also 877 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:37,719 Speaker 1: the strategic exchange to match the visual exchange in terms 878 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,280 Speaker 1: of just like actually knowing how to get into formation 879 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,880 Speaker 1: because it's just like, um, yeah, like the with the 880 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,040 Speaker 1: putting up the tear gas, with the pylons, it's just 881 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,439 Speaker 1: like you actually had to have like three or four 882 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,960 Speaker 1: dedicated people, like one person to hold a pilot, one 883 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,160 Speaker 1: person to have the water, one person to like you know, 884 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: all these different things that really do need to be coordinated, 885 00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 1: and then also, like you said, practiced before you get 886 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:05,759 Speaker 1: it right, and um, I don't know. I mean there 887 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,840 Speaker 1: I think just so many of the tactics, like you know, 888 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,560 Speaker 1: stopping tear gas with umbrellas is not super effective, right, 889 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,759 Speaker 1: because it's just like First of all, the rounds are 890 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,000 Speaker 1: extremely you know, they move very fast and they're very hot. 891 00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:20,880 Speaker 1: And then there it's also not going to actually shield 892 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: very much from you, right. So, um, I think visually 893 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,320 Speaker 1: it was very striking and it it's very helpful in 894 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,800 Speaker 1: terms of surveillance. Um. But that was something that happened 895 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,680 Speaker 1: in Hong Kong and also happened over here that I 896 00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:41,160 Speaker 1: saw that I was just like, um, that's not super useful. Um. 897 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,319 Speaker 1: But I think I have been encouraging people to to 898 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,640 Speaker 1: bring those out more still, umbrellas and stuff, because I've 899 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,640 Speaker 1: heard in Toronto at least that the cops are like 900 00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:55,320 Speaker 1: using surveillance drones. Yeah, umbrellas are great against cameras, and 901 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,919 Speaker 1: they do have a lot of advantages compared to hard 902 00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,440 Speaker 1: shields in a lot of situations, but of course when 903 00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,080 Speaker 1: you're facing like heavy munition fire, then they're they're not 904 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 1: as useful. Yeah. And I saw, you know, like I 905 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,880 Speaker 1: saw a lot of inventiveness with the heavier shields in 906 00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,000 Speaker 1: Hong Kong in terms of like using plastic barricades. But 907 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: then you know that was that that's not super portable, right, 908 00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:16,719 Speaker 1: So then I saw a lot of people making them 909 00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,920 Speaker 1: out of like those floating you know, those things that 910 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,319 Speaker 1: helps you float and swim because they're super light, but 911 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:28,880 Speaker 1: then they also reflect chair gats very well, the canisters. So, um, 912 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,280 Speaker 1: I didn't see so much of that in the US. 913 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,440 Speaker 1: I saw people use more like big wooden boards and 914 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,960 Speaker 1: like you know, uh street signs and stuff like that, 915 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,840 Speaker 1: and um so that was maybe that's just a difference 916 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,719 Speaker 1: in terms of like what material is available to you 917 00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:47,520 Speaker 1: and stuff. But um, I think the emphasis on mobility 918 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,320 Speaker 1: was a lot more in Hong Kong rather than the US, 919 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,080 Speaker 1: where it was just like the actual emphasis was on 920 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:56,800 Speaker 1: luring police to a location and then being able to 921 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,719 Speaker 1: quickly run away so that they're stretched so thin, right, 922 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,279 Speaker 1: Like that was that was a water touch. But yeah, 923 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,120 Speaker 1: that the States did not do that at all. You know, well, 924 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,200 Speaker 1: I I would say, like, okay, I don't think the 925 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,600 Speaker 1: people who like said be water did that at all. 926 00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,120 Speaker 1: But like I remember, like in the beginning in Chicago, 927 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,239 Speaker 1: before anyone was coordinating anything, it was just a bunch 928 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,680 Speaker 1: of people running around like that actually did happen, Like 929 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,440 Speaker 1: like that was, yeah, the police like in Chicago collapse 930 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,799 Speaker 1: and the reason they collapse was that there's like you know, 931 00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:26,880 Speaker 1: there's just six hundred people just on every street corner. 932 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:32,080 Speaker 1: There were absolutely fu cities where that did happen, and um, 933 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,600 Speaker 1: but generally from my experience of at least on parts 934 00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,120 Speaker 1: of the West Coast, there was a lot of a lot, 935 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 1: a lot of chanting about the water while you stand 936 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:42,880 Speaker 1: in front of a police station for six hours. And 937 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,120 Speaker 1: there were definitely actions where people did that, you know, 938 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,000 Speaker 1: and would would go and and and you know, get 939 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,359 Speaker 1: away with some mischief because they were willing to move 940 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:53,920 Speaker 1: quickly and not stick around. But yeah, there was a 941 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:58,080 Speaker 1: lot of chanting be water while repeatedly heading back to 942 00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:03,200 Speaker 1: the same police station. Um. You know, I wonder about that, 943 00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,760 Speaker 1: like because because it seems like once this it seemed 944 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,680 Speaker 1: like like once you were in because at the very 945 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,960 Speaker 1: early stages in the US, like my impression of it was, 946 00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,880 Speaker 1: it was just like it caught everyone off guard and 947 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,279 Speaker 1: it was just a bunch of rent and people and 948 00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,439 Speaker 1: it's like they seemed so just like do it. Maybe 949 00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,520 Speaker 1: maybe just by the fact that they were very coordinated 950 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: and so it was it was just centralized, just sort 951 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:28,319 Speaker 1: of just by the nature of the fact that it 952 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,720 Speaker 1: was just a bunch of red and people. But then 953 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,719 Speaker 1: when you started getting these sort of like you had. 954 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,239 Speaker 1: We had another phase in Chicago that was it was 955 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 1: like it worked really well, but it was there's there's 956 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:40,880 Speaker 1: like a bunch of anti statute protests and it was 957 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:42,520 Speaker 1: like the anti statue people would they were just like 958 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,880 Speaker 1: surround like a statue and they would just throw things 959 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 1: at it. And that was very much more similar to Portland. 960 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,279 Speaker 1: I guess, so I don't know. Part of me is 961 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:56,200 Speaker 1: wondering whether it was like there's something about the organizational 962 00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:02,239 Speaker 1: structure that in the States where that were people that 963 00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,960 Speaker 1: that like heavily favors getting a bunch of people to 964 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,719 Speaker 1: go to one place and sitting there in a way 965 00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,480 Speaker 1: that didn't happen in Hong Kong. I think it was 966 00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,400 Speaker 1: that you there was a certain point in the protests 967 00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,759 Speaker 1: in a number of US cities where you still had 968 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,080 Speaker 1: intense interest in people being out in the streets, but 969 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:23,320 Speaker 1: you hadn't had Number One, there wasn't necessarily a concerted, 970 00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,279 Speaker 1: agreed upon list of demands, but also there wasn't a 971 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,640 Speaker 1: clear understanding of how to achieve them, Like you know, 972 00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,520 Speaker 1: in Portland, there was a point where the hardcore folks, 973 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:34,520 Speaker 1: the folks showing up every night pretty much we're all 974 00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:36,600 Speaker 1: in agreement that like, yeah, we don't want any more cops. 975 00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,640 Speaker 1: But there was also not a white agreement. I'm like, well, 976 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:41,839 Speaker 1: how do we what's the path to that? Is? It? 977 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,600 Speaker 1: Is it showing up and trying to make their lives 978 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,040 Speaker 1: miserable every night? Like? Is it? There was kind of 979 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,520 Speaker 1: a there was a there was a point at which 980 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,120 Speaker 1: their motivation to be on the streets was there, but 981 00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,640 Speaker 1: the understanding of like how to achieve the goals was not, 982 00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,960 Speaker 1: and so folks were, um. You would see kind of 983 00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,560 Speaker 1: the same thing being done a few times without without 984 00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:09,800 Speaker 1: it necessarily making making progress, and eventually, you know, people 985 00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,279 Speaker 1: didn't move on. But it was this this thing of like, 986 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,920 Speaker 1: I think what you need if you're going to actually 987 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:23,200 Speaker 1: forced through significant changes is um a continually evolving understanding 988 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,840 Speaker 1: of your goals and methods UM. And that's it's a 989 00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,320 Speaker 1: really hard like I'm saying, this is what's necessary, I 990 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:30,919 Speaker 1: have no idea how to do that when you've got 991 00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,600 Speaker 1: this very decentralized, large group of people out in the streets, 992 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,879 Speaker 1: you don't have you know, leaders or a central organization. 993 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,520 Speaker 1: In fact, having those things is going to endanger people 994 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,719 Speaker 1: in the movement because that stuff always gets infiltrated, you know, 995 00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,279 Speaker 1: or or winds up to be in some other way problematic. 996 00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,600 Speaker 1: So it's kind of I'm acknowledging this as a problem, 997 00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:50,520 Speaker 1: and I don't want that to be like I'm pointing 998 00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,080 Speaker 1: at like activists in Portland or activists and wherever and saying, 999 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,080 Speaker 1: you dummies didn't figure that. No one's figured it out. 1000 00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,080 Speaker 1: We don't know like nobody knows how to do this 1001 00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,360 Speaker 1: yet because it hasn't been done. Um, but that's clearly 1002 00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 1: where I think you can see. That's where the problem 1003 00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,920 Speaker 1: is is that you you get these situations where there's motivation, 1004 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:08,799 Speaker 1: people are willing to be out in the streets, but 1005 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:13,240 Speaker 1: there's also not outside of being angry and in the streets, 1006 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,360 Speaker 1: there's not necessarily clear understanding of like, well, how okay, 1007 00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:20,040 Speaker 1: how do we what what are we trying to achieve specifically? 1008 00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,360 Speaker 1: And how were we achieving it? Like how are we 1009 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,359 Speaker 1: furthering that Golden Night? Yeah? Well I'm not sure if 1010 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,960 Speaker 1: I mean, because eventually, you know, street fighting I don't 1011 00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,000 Speaker 1: not really like lost its luster, but people were just 1012 00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:33,360 Speaker 1: kind of like what is this doing in Hong Kong 1013 00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,600 Speaker 1: as well, And um, it's you know, eventually it stopped 1014 00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,319 Speaker 1: because all the all the kids were doing it were 1015 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:44,000 Speaker 1: like traumatized or bodily you know, exhaustion or mental exhaustion 1016 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,239 Speaker 1: and all those different things where they were all arrested. Right, 1017 00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,680 Speaker 1: so you know, there's it just kind of petered out 1018 00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,520 Speaker 1: like that. And I think the problem was that, you know, 1019 00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,920 Speaker 1: it was very anti CCP for for most of it, 1020 00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,360 Speaker 1: but then I think eventually it became just so anti 1021 00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,560 Speaker 1: police that um it. I think a lot of people 1022 00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,719 Speaker 1: kind of eventually lost sight of what yeah, like you're 1023 00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:08,920 Speaker 1: saying the goal was, or what what's the best way 1024 00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,759 Speaker 1: to achieve what we want? And if it was just 1025 00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,120 Speaker 1: continually attacking the police on the street, then it wasn't 1026 00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,560 Speaker 1: going to accomplish that what I mean, No, no, no, yeah, yeah. 1027 00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,879 Speaker 1: And I don't want any of this to come as 1028 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,719 Speaker 1: like criticisms. It's more just like a well this, this 1029 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: didn't do it, you know, like they're still cops, right, 1030 00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:29,000 Speaker 1: like if that's if that is the goal and for 1031 00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:31,480 Speaker 1: some people, right for the broader tens of millions of 1032 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:33,480 Speaker 1: Americans in the streets, there was never that kind of 1033 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:37,120 Speaker 1: a consensus. It was much more muddled, but the dedicated activists, 1034 00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,680 Speaker 1: there was a consensus, but it also didn't it ain't 1035 00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:41,920 Speaker 1: done yet, So I think there is like there's a 1036 00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:45,279 Speaker 1: continuing question everybody needs to be asking themselves, just like, well, 1037 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:46,840 Speaker 1: how do we get from A to B, you know, 1038 00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:50,520 Speaker 1: um or A to Z as the case maybe? Is 1039 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,839 Speaker 1: there is there any uma places that people can go 1040 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,680 Speaker 1: to learn more about this type of stuff online or 1041 00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:00,640 Speaker 1: any any like resources that you you would like to share. Yeah, 1042 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,320 Speaker 1: I mean, of course, uh, you know, plug loss on 1043 00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:05,480 Speaker 1: in terms of our website, you can go to las 1044 00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,840 Speaker 1: h K and then all of our social media stuff 1045 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:11,880 Speaker 1: like that. UM, I don't know. Yeah, if folks are 1046 00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:16,680 Speaker 1: more interested in We're trying to put together a uh 1047 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:22,200 Speaker 1: kind of non status anti militarist coalition soon UM, and 1048 00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,440 Speaker 1: our first event is going to be hopefully in a 1049 00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:28,400 Speaker 1: month or so UM to try and provide some solutions 1050 00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,720 Speaker 1: to um what we see as kind of like anti 1051 00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,480 Speaker 1: war activism that is, like it's just about kind of 1052 00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,920 Speaker 1: marching from from A to B and then holding PSL 1053 00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,080 Speaker 1: signs and answer coalition signs and stuff like that. So 1054 00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:43,920 Speaker 1: I guess I'll just pre plug that for now and 1055 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,560 Speaker 1: keep an eye on that. Great. Yeah, and thank you 1056 00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:49,680 Speaker 1: so much, for coming on and talking with us. Yes, 1057 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,720 Speaker 1: thank you, Yeah, thanks for the invite. Happy to be 1058 00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,440 Speaker 1: this has been it could happen here talking about a 1059 00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:02,880 Speaker 1: place where it did in fact happen and then yeah 1060 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,280 Speaker 1: it did, it didn't happen enough. Yeah, and it didn't 1061 00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,720 Speaker 1: happen enough here either, And a lot of questions in common, 1062 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,680 Speaker 1: Like I hope nobody thinks when we say, like we're 1063 00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,400 Speaker 1: going to talk about how to you know, potentially come 1064 00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:18,120 Speaker 1: to agreements about a list of demands and even general 1065 00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,160 Speaker 1: strike that we're saying like here's the solution to this. 1066 00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:24,040 Speaker 1: Um I I've said a couple of times. I think 1067 00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:28,560 Speaker 1: the problem confronting as getting a mass movement to agree 1068 00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:31,800 Speaker 1: on a list of demands and then take mass concerted 1069 00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:35,920 Speaker 1: action to force them, like is a is a a 1070 00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:41,680 Speaker 1: cultural task, probably exceeding in difficulty the moon landing. Um 1071 00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:43,680 Speaker 1: So no, like we're not we're not coming here trying 1072 00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,520 Speaker 1: to say like here, but like here's what everyone needs 1073 00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:48,360 Speaker 1: to do. It's more of like, well, this is a 1074 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,280 Speaker 1: question we all need to be asking ourselves, and I 1075 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,680 Speaker 1: think our role in that is to be asking that 1076 00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,720 Speaker 1: question of some people who have spent a lot of 1077 00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:02,080 Speaker 1: time trying to practically ask that question another part of 1078 00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,480 Speaker 1: the world and learning what we can from that example, 1079 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,440 Speaker 1: because we don't have a tremendous amount of time, so 1080 00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:12,960 Speaker 1: we should probably be studying. Yeah. You can find us 1081 00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:16,080 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Happened Here pod and cool Zone Media. 1082 00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,280 Speaker 1: You can listen to other episodes of it Could Happen 1083 00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:23,280 Speaker 1: Here um five days a week, Monday through Friday on 1084 00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:26,640 Speaker 1: this feed and other podcasts. You know where to find 1085 00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:28,960 Speaker 1: them behind the Bastards source you're ever that kind of stuff. 1086 00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,919 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. We will We will be back 1087 00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,240 Speaker 1: in the next in the next day or after the weekend, 1088 00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:46,160 Speaker 1: whenever this airs allegedly. Allegedly it Could Happen Here is 1089 00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:49,040 Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 1090 00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:52,320 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 1091 00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,360 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 1092 00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,840 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 1093 00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:00,000 Speaker 1: find sources for It Could Happen Here updated a month 1094 01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,800 Speaker 1: Lee at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 1095 01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:03,440 Speaker 1: for listening.