1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This episode contains explicit language. There are all kinds 2 00:00:24,756 --> 00:00:28,196 Speaker 1: of reasons for wanting to do a podcast episode. You 3 00:00:28,236 --> 00:00:30,636 Speaker 1: want to tell them a specific story, you want to 4 00:00:30,636 --> 00:00:33,636 Speaker 1: make an argument, make sense of a particularly powerful piece 5 00:00:33,676 --> 00:00:37,316 Speaker 1: of tape. But the simplest, and let's be honest, the 6 00:00:37,396 --> 00:00:40,716 Speaker 1: most selfish reason is it you want an excuse to 7 00:00:40,756 --> 00:00:44,156 Speaker 1: hang out with someone you love. And this was the 8 00:00:44,196 --> 00:00:47,556 Speaker 1: origin of the Randy Newman episode. I am one of 9 00:00:47,556 --> 00:00:49,876 Speaker 1: the very large group of music lovers who think that 10 00:00:49,996 --> 00:00:52,996 Speaker 1: Randy Newman is a genius and that his best albums 11 00:00:53,396 --> 00:00:56,036 Speaker 1: like sail Away or Good Old Boys are basically as 12 00:00:56,036 --> 00:00:59,276 Speaker 1: good as pop music ever gets. So I tracked him down, 13 00:00:59,476 --> 00:01:02,396 Speaker 1: actually to his son Thanks Amos, booked a flight to 14 00:01:02,436 --> 00:01:05,236 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, and on the plane ride asked myself, Okay, 15 00:01:05,436 --> 00:01:07,756 Speaker 1: of all the million things I could possibly talk to 16 00:01:07,836 --> 00:01:10,836 Speaker 1: Randy Newman about, what would make for the best story, 17 00:01:11,796 --> 00:01:16,196 Speaker 1: And somewhere over I'm sure Nebraska, I realized, Oh, it's 18 00:01:16,236 --> 00:01:20,916 Speaker 1: obvious I need to talk to him about his song Rednecks, 19 00:01:21,396 --> 00:01:23,636 Speaker 1: And so I did. And if you're listening, Randy, and 20 00:01:23,716 --> 00:01:26,236 Speaker 1: you want to have me over again, just say the word. 21 00:01:27,876 --> 00:01:30,996 Speaker 1: In the fall of nineteen seventy four, the musician Randy 22 00:01:31,036 --> 00:01:34,476 Speaker 1: Newman released an album called Good Old Boys. The most 23 00:01:34,476 --> 00:01:37,476 Speaker 1: beautiful song on the record is the third song on 24 00:01:37,556 --> 00:01:40,476 Speaker 1: the first side, Wait Can I prevail on? You did 25 00:01:40,516 --> 00:01:43,396 Speaker 1: disteal a little bit of Marie Sure so. I love 26 00:01:43,436 --> 00:01:44,276 Speaker 1: that song so much. 27 00:01:44,916 --> 00:01:45,716 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. 28 00:01:58,916 --> 00:02:02,876 Speaker 3: Look like a Princess Night. 29 00:02:05,036 --> 00:02:06,876 Speaker 4: Was your part of. 30 00:02:11,836 --> 00:02:14,956 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 31 00:02:15,156 --> 00:02:20,236 Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is 32 00:02:20,276 --> 00:02:23,116 Speaker 1: about Randy Newman's Good Old Boys, one of the most 33 00:02:23,116 --> 00:02:26,436 Speaker 1: remarkable albums of its era. I listened to it for 34 00:02:26,476 --> 00:02:29,436 Speaker 1: the first time years ago, but then I happened to 35 00:02:29,476 --> 00:02:32,476 Speaker 1: listen to it again very recently and realize that Good 36 00:02:32,476 --> 00:02:34,516 Speaker 1: Old Boys is not an album you can hear just 37 00:02:34,556 --> 00:02:37,956 Speaker 1: once and hope to do it justice, because it's not 38 00:02:38,076 --> 00:02:41,996 Speaker 1: just remarkable, it's unsettling. I don't think an album like 39 00:02:42,036 --> 00:02:44,556 Speaker 1: this could be made today, and by the end of 40 00:02:44,556 --> 00:02:49,236 Speaker 1: this episode, I suspect you'll agree with me. I decided 41 00:02:49,276 --> 00:02:52,756 Speaker 1: to go to California, sit down with Randy Newman, and 42 00:02:52,876 --> 00:02:56,276 Speaker 1: create a listener's guide to one of the most perplexing 43 00:02:56,316 --> 00:02:58,996 Speaker 1: works of music that I have ever encountered. 44 00:03:00,156 --> 00:03:08,236 Speaker 3: Drug. Well, I've got to be a little bit too. 45 00:03:10,116 --> 00:03:14,036 Speaker 5: Which you mean me? Low? 46 00:03:14,356 --> 00:03:23,396 Speaker 3: You the first time soul, you always love you me. 47 00:03:27,036 --> 00:03:30,396 Speaker 1: Newman is in his seventies, still writing music, Tall and 48 00:03:30,436 --> 00:03:34,676 Speaker 1: slightly intimidating. He's Hollywood Royalty. His uncle, Alfred, was a 49 00:03:34,676 --> 00:03:38,556 Speaker 1: composer who was nominated for an Academy Award forty four times, 50 00:03:38,876 --> 00:03:42,036 Speaker 1: won nine times. Newman has had a second career writing 51 00:03:42,036 --> 00:03:44,556 Speaker 1: for the movies as well, like You've Got a Friend 52 00:03:44,596 --> 00:03:48,596 Speaker 1: in Me for Toy Story. Newman is unusual among songwriters 53 00:03:48,636 --> 00:03:51,716 Speaker 1: because he writes in character, and the narrator of Good 54 00:03:51,716 --> 00:03:55,396 Speaker 1: Old Boys is a creation of Newman's. He's called Johnny Cutler, 55 00:03:55,916 --> 00:04:00,196 Speaker 1: a steel worker from Birmingham, Alabama, thirty years old. The 56 00:04:00,276 --> 00:04:04,356 Speaker 1: song Marie is about Johnny Cutler coming home late after 57 00:04:04,396 --> 00:04:07,796 Speaker 1: a night out with the boys and gazing love struck 58 00:04:08,156 --> 00:04:09,116 Speaker 1: at his sleeping wife. 59 00:04:09,796 --> 00:04:16,436 Speaker 4: I like the idea very much about being inarticulate without 60 00:04:16,716 --> 00:04:19,676 Speaker 4: that's not the right word, in articulate, but being unable 61 00:04:20,516 --> 00:04:23,956 Speaker 4: to have the words unless you drink something. You know, 62 00:04:24,036 --> 00:04:26,596 Speaker 4: I can't say this to you, and maybe to lack 63 00:04:27,476 --> 00:04:31,516 Speaker 4: the ability to say those kind of words. 64 00:04:31,716 --> 00:04:35,156 Speaker 1: But he's the fact that he has been drinking and 65 00:04:35,156 --> 00:04:37,996 Speaker 1: he and you realize he can only say what he's 66 00:04:37,996 --> 00:04:40,556 Speaker 1: saying because he's dr and because she's asleep. 67 00:04:42,356 --> 00:04:42,516 Speaker 3: Right. 68 00:04:42,836 --> 00:04:47,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, but that even that makes me humanizes him and 69 00:04:47,876 --> 00:04:50,716 Speaker 1: even more I sort of feel so love her. 70 00:04:51,036 --> 00:04:55,116 Speaker 4: I mean, it would seem that that isn't drink, but 71 00:04:55,196 --> 00:04:59,676 Speaker 4: it might be. Is this a good guy? And my 72 00:04:59,796 --> 00:05:03,476 Speaker 4: answer to that is I don't know. I mean, I'm 73 00:05:03,516 --> 00:05:04,276 Speaker 4: suspicious of. 74 00:05:05,996 --> 00:05:06,076 Speaker 6: This. 75 00:05:06,396 --> 00:05:08,596 Speaker 4: I'm drunk right now, baby, but maybe when I'm awake, 76 00:05:08,636 --> 00:05:09,756 Speaker 4: I might not the shit out of you. 77 00:05:09,876 --> 00:05:10,236 Speaker 3: Sometime. 78 00:05:11,236 --> 00:05:15,196 Speaker 1: Randy Newman wrote, Marie, he created Johnny Cutler. He dreamt 79 00:05:15,276 --> 00:05:17,836 Speaker 1: up a beautiful love song for him, but he doesn't 80 00:05:17,876 --> 00:05:21,356 Speaker 1: know if he understands him or even if he likes him. 81 00:05:21,556 --> 00:05:24,436 Speaker 1: As if Johnny Cutler came from his imagination but is 82 00:05:24,476 --> 00:05:28,756 Speaker 1: now somehow independent of it, it makes you wonder who's 83 00:05:28,796 --> 00:05:29,796 Speaker 1: in charge of this song. 84 00:05:32,156 --> 00:05:42,476 Speaker 5: Sometimes I'm crazy, but I guess you know a week 85 00:05:43,396 --> 00:05:53,996 Speaker 5: it all lies. It a hurt, So I never listen 86 00:05:54,236 --> 00:06:02,436 Speaker 5: to the world you say when you calmed me in 87 00:06:02,636 --> 00:06:10,196 Speaker 5: trouble do and not just try awake. But I love you. 88 00:06:11,796 --> 00:06:20,276 Speaker 5: I love you first time A sign ah. 89 00:06:20,396 --> 00:06:23,276 Speaker 3: We love may. 90 00:06:27,156 --> 00:06:30,276 Speaker 1: The story behind good Old Boys begins with a man 91 00:06:30,356 --> 00:06:34,316 Speaker 1: named Lester Maddox. Maddox was governor of Georgia from nineteen 92 00:06:34,356 --> 00:06:38,236 Speaker 1: sixty seven to nineteen seventy one. Now he's mostly forgotten, 93 00:06:38,636 --> 00:06:40,556 Speaker 1: but in his day he was notorious. 94 00:06:40,956 --> 00:06:43,716 Speaker 7: I thank his full to act for real. I don't 95 00:06:43,756 --> 00:06:45,956 Speaker 7: look at myself as one of the very smart people, 96 00:06:46,556 --> 00:06:49,036 Speaker 7: so I try to act like Lester Maddox like inside 97 00:06:49,076 --> 00:06:50,596 Speaker 7: I feel and think and believe. 98 00:06:53,396 --> 00:06:56,436 Speaker 1: Maddox grew up in the depression in Atlanta. His father 99 00:06:56,556 --> 00:06:57,356 Speaker 1: was an alcoholic. 100 00:06:57,756 --> 00:07:01,756 Speaker 7: My dad never made hardly any money. We times we 101 00:07:01,796 --> 00:07:03,716 Speaker 7: didn't even have a bathroom in the house. We had 102 00:07:03,716 --> 00:07:06,556 Speaker 7: four rooms in a path rather than four rooms in 103 00:07:06,556 --> 00:07:08,676 Speaker 7: a bathroom. We didn't have electricity. 104 00:07:09,396 --> 00:07:11,516 Speaker 1: Dropped out of high school, got a job as a 105 00:07:11,516 --> 00:07:14,956 Speaker 1: steel worker to help support his five younger siblings, married 106 00:07:14,996 --> 00:07:18,916 Speaker 1: his childhood sweetheart, Virginia, and after the war he started 107 00:07:18,956 --> 00:07:22,316 Speaker 1: a diner near Georgia Tech. The house specialty was skillep 108 00:07:22,356 --> 00:07:25,516 Speaker 1: fried chicken. He called his place the Pickrick. 109 00:07:26,876 --> 00:07:29,516 Speaker 7: So I wanted to name no one else had. Now 110 00:07:29,556 --> 00:07:32,996 Speaker 7: I came on the name upon the name Pickwick, and 111 00:07:33,036 --> 00:07:35,396 Speaker 7: I found out it really wick doesn't meaning thing ex 112 00:07:35,396 --> 00:07:37,596 Speaker 7: So what you know it to be Wick. That's what 113 00:07:37,756 --> 00:07:41,316 Speaker 7: Webster will even tell you that Wick and someone had 114 00:07:41,316 --> 00:07:44,676 Speaker 7: already used the name Pickwick in England, so I couldn't 115 00:07:44,756 --> 00:07:46,676 Speaker 7: use that. So it was about three o'clock one morning. 116 00:07:46,716 --> 00:07:48,196 Speaker 7: I'd been working on it for weeks. 117 00:07:48,516 --> 00:07:50,676 Speaker 1: Maddox was one of those people who you can't do 118 00:07:50,756 --> 00:07:53,716 Speaker 1: a cartoon version of because he already looks like a 119 00:07:53,756 --> 00:07:57,916 Speaker 1: cartoon version of himself. He's skinny, with an oversized head, 120 00:07:58,076 --> 00:08:01,956 Speaker 1: bald dome, black plastic glasses, always in a black suit, 121 00:08:02,356 --> 00:08:05,596 Speaker 1: moves with a kind of loose, slimmed floppiness, like a clown. 122 00:08:06,276 --> 00:08:09,116 Speaker 1: There are so many oral history interviews with Lester Mattain 123 00:08:09,356 --> 00:08:12,076 Speaker 1: floating around the state of Georgia that he must have 124 00:08:12,116 --> 00:08:15,196 Speaker 1: spent as many hours reminiscing about his time as governor 125 00:08:15,516 --> 00:08:18,956 Speaker 1: as he actually spent serving as governor. The man liked 126 00:08:18,956 --> 00:08:19,636 Speaker 1: to talk. 127 00:08:22,676 --> 00:08:25,716 Speaker 7: See to pick mes ascidiously, to pick out, to choose 128 00:08:25,756 --> 00:08:28,556 Speaker 7: a select, and rick means to pile up to heap 129 00:08:28,636 --> 00:08:31,756 Speaker 7: or damas. So I named my restaurant Pickrick and said, 130 00:08:31,756 --> 00:08:34,276 Speaker 7: if you'd picnic it to Pickrick and pick it out, 131 00:08:34,356 --> 00:08:37,356 Speaker 7: we would rick it up. And we would. We did, 132 00:08:37,396 --> 00:08:39,796 Speaker 7: and that's why it was named Pickrick. I've never heard 133 00:08:39,836 --> 00:08:41,196 Speaker 7: anything else being named Pickrick. 134 00:08:41,676 --> 00:08:44,716 Speaker 1: Mattis advertised the Pickrick in the Saturday edition of the 135 00:08:44,756 --> 00:08:48,476 Speaker 1: Atlanta Journal in a column with the title Pickrick says 136 00:08:49,236 --> 00:08:52,836 Speaker 1: lots of one liners in Matoxisms, like the nineteen fifties 137 00:08:52,956 --> 00:08:54,076 Speaker 1: version of tweets Well. 138 00:08:54,116 --> 00:08:58,156 Speaker 7: I talked about Christmas, I talked about marriage. I talked 139 00:08:58,156 --> 00:09:01,196 Speaker 7: about the monkey house at Grant Park. I talked about whether. 140 00:09:01,276 --> 00:09:03,916 Speaker 7: I talked about fishing in my edge. 141 00:09:04,636 --> 00:09:08,236 Speaker 1: But soon his column, Pickrick says, becomes more and more 142 00:09:08,236 --> 00:09:12,116 Speaker 1: political because this is Atlanta in the mid nineteen fifties, 143 00:09:12,516 --> 00:09:15,116 Speaker 1: one of the birthplaces of the civil rights movement, and 144 00:09:15,276 --> 00:09:18,556 Speaker 1: Pickcrick is a ten minute drive from Auburn Avenue, where 145 00:09:18,556 --> 00:09:20,916 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King and Andrew Young and Vernon Jordan and 146 00:09:20,916 --> 00:09:23,836 Speaker 1: everyone else are starting to stir things up and less 147 00:09:23,876 --> 00:09:27,836 Speaker 1: Dramattox is not at all happy with that. He's a segregationist, 148 00:09:28,316 --> 00:09:31,196 Speaker 1: and the more strident Maddox gets in his weekly ads, 149 00:09:31,556 --> 00:09:35,756 Speaker 1: the more popular Pickwick says becomes. People start buying the 150 00:09:35,796 --> 00:09:38,436 Speaker 1: Atlanta Journal on Saturday just to read what Maddox is 151 00:09:38,516 --> 00:09:42,196 Speaker 1: up to. Maddox decides to run for mayor of Atlanta. 152 00:09:42,756 --> 00:09:46,876 Speaker 1: He is no organization, no money, he drives himself around 153 00:09:47,356 --> 00:09:50,156 Speaker 1: and he loses. But the race is closer than you'd think, 154 00:09:50,596 --> 00:09:53,596 Speaker 1: so he runs again and loses, and runs a third 155 00:09:53,636 --> 00:09:57,756 Speaker 1: time and loses. But then the wave of desegregation protests 156 00:09:57,836 --> 00:10:01,596 Speaker 1: hits Atlanta in the early nineteen sixties. The public schools 157 00:10:01,636 --> 00:10:05,716 Speaker 1: are integrated first, then the lunch counters than the restaurants, 158 00:10:06,436 --> 00:10:09,476 Speaker 1: and since the Pickcrick restaurant does not admit black par people, 159 00:10:09,916 --> 00:10:12,356 Speaker 1: the civil rights protesters come knocking. 160 00:10:14,836 --> 00:10:18,956 Speaker 7: Well, the first time, I was about four wives and 161 00:10:18,996 --> 00:10:23,476 Speaker 7: tree blacks came in and Virginia and I were about 162 00:10:23,476 --> 00:10:26,476 Speaker 7: to eat our luncheon Saturday afternoon. They told them what 163 00:10:26,516 --> 00:10:27,676 Speaker 7: they're going to do, and I told them, you're not 164 00:10:27,716 --> 00:10:28,956 Speaker 7: going to do any such things. 165 00:10:29,156 --> 00:10:31,356 Speaker 1: What they were going to do was eat a pickrick 166 00:10:31,836 --> 00:10:33,876 Speaker 1: with the television cameras as witness. 167 00:10:34,036 --> 00:10:35,956 Speaker 7: I said, you never been here before. You just want 168 00:10:35,956 --> 00:10:38,636 Speaker 7: to fuss and fight. So I grabbed two of them, 169 00:10:38,676 --> 00:10:40,956 Speaker 7: I think what it was John Lewis or Brown or somebody, 170 00:10:42,076 --> 00:10:43,676 Speaker 7: and I just had them out the door. When they 171 00:10:43,716 --> 00:10:45,356 Speaker 7: happen to remember, they were supposed to lay down on 172 00:10:45,356 --> 00:10:48,036 Speaker 7: the floor. If you hadn't thought about that, I'd had 173 00:10:48,076 --> 00:10:53,356 Speaker 7: them both out and they got on the floor because 174 00:10:53,356 --> 00:10:56,116 Speaker 7: I couldn't drag them, so I called them my black employees. 175 00:10:56,956 --> 00:11:00,476 Speaker 7: I had the kitchen and I said, these people trying 176 00:11:00,476 --> 00:11:02,436 Speaker 7: to destroy our business. They don't want to eat with us, 177 00:11:02,436 --> 00:11:04,836 Speaker 7: they just want to create a problem. They out the television, 178 00:11:04,996 --> 00:11:08,076 Speaker 7: radio and everyone with them, and I said, I'm going 179 00:11:08,076 --> 00:11:09,916 Speaker 7: to give you ten dollars. Each one of them is 180 00:11:09,956 --> 00:11:13,396 Speaker 7: throw out. In the next thirty seconds. 181 00:11:14,076 --> 00:11:17,916 Speaker 1: Maddox's employees through the mount but the protesters came back. 182 00:11:18,396 --> 00:11:20,956 Speaker 1: This time Maddox met them at the door, with the 183 00:11:20,996 --> 00:11:24,156 Speaker 1: television cameras rolling and a crowd starting to gather. 184 00:11:25,076 --> 00:11:28,796 Speaker 8: Youdia, now you want. 185 00:11:32,916 --> 00:11:35,676 Speaker 1: There's Maddox in front of the pickrick with his black 186 00:11:35,716 --> 00:11:40,276 Speaker 1: suit and bald head protesters shouting cameras all around. He's 187 00:11:40,276 --> 00:11:40,796 Speaker 1: in heaven. 188 00:11:41,236 --> 00:11:44,356 Speaker 8: I'll use a channels, I'll use guns, I'll use pain, 189 00:11:44,476 --> 00:11:47,436 Speaker 8: I'll use my fist, I'll use my customers, I'll use 190 00:11:47,516 --> 00:11:51,276 Speaker 8: my employees, I'll use anything. It's mind this bold. This 191 00:11:51,476 --> 00:11:55,276 Speaker 8: property belongs to me, my wife and my children. It 192 00:11:55,316 --> 00:11:57,636 Speaker 8: doesn't belong to anybody else. I'll throw out a white 193 00:11:57,636 --> 00:11:59,356 Speaker 8: one or a black one, or a red headed one, 194 00:11:59,436 --> 00:12:01,596 Speaker 8: or ball when it doesn't make any difference. 195 00:12:02,036 --> 00:12:05,236 Speaker 1: Maddox gets hauled into court because the Civil Rights Act 196 00:12:05,276 --> 00:12:07,996 Speaker 1: has been passed and what he's doing is illegal. He's 197 00:12:08,036 --> 00:12:11,796 Speaker 1: given a choice, integrate or shut his doors, and he 198 00:12:11,876 --> 00:12:15,036 Speaker 1: decides to shut the Pickwrick, one of the most popular 199 00:12:15,036 --> 00:12:18,156 Speaker 1: and successful restaurants in Atlanta, the business that he has 200 00:12:18,156 --> 00:12:22,036 Speaker 1: spent his lifetime building that made him famous, and to 201 00:12:22,156 --> 00:12:24,716 Speaker 1: every Southerner angry at the way the world is turning, 202 00:12:25,156 --> 00:12:28,436 Speaker 1: he becomes a hero. A friend says to him, you know, 203 00:12:29,156 --> 00:12:32,876 Speaker 1: maybe you should run for governor, and Maddox says, okay. 204 00:12:33,316 --> 00:12:38,796 Speaker 1: And in nineteen sixty six, he wins a white nationalist 205 00:12:38,956 --> 00:12:43,076 Speaker 1: in the hospitality business who came to public attention writing pithy, 206 00:12:43,196 --> 00:12:47,476 Speaker 1: politically charged statements in a widely read media forum, runs 207 00:12:47,476 --> 00:12:51,396 Speaker 1: against the political establishment and pulls off an upset victory. 208 00:12:51,796 --> 00:12:54,236 Speaker 1: And by the way, it's a very close race. Maddox 209 00:12:54,276 --> 00:12:56,716 Speaker 1: doesn't actually get as many votes as his opponent, but 210 00:12:56,796 --> 00:12:59,316 Speaker 1: he wins when the election is thrown to the legislature. 211 00:13:00,116 --> 00:13:02,556 Speaker 1: Oh and a huge part of Maddox's rhetoric is how 212 00:13:02,556 --> 00:13:06,356 Speaker 1: the media can't be trusted. He's constantly accusing newspapers of 213 00:13:06,436 --> 00:13:08,916 Speaker 1: lying about him. In fact, in the corner of his 214 00:13:09,116 --> 00:13:12,356 Speaker 1: official governor's portrait as a little table with a dead 215 00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:15,716 Speaker 1: fish on it, wrapped in a copy of the Atlanta Journal. 216 00:13:16,756 --> 00:13:20,836 Speaker 1: A white nationalist in the hospitality business who wrote pithy 217 00:13:20,916 --> 00:13:24,916 Speaker 1: statements on a media platform, runs against the political establishment, 218 00:13:25,196 --> 00:13:28,236 Speaker 1: accuses the news media of running fake news about him, 219 00:13:28,476 --> 00:13:31,756 Speaker 1: doesn't get as many votes as his opponent, and nonetheless 220 00:13:31,836 --> 00:13:35,636 Speaker 1: takes over the highest executive office. I mean, when has 221 00:13:35,716 --> 00:13:42,436 Speaker 1: that ever happen? Maddock serves four years, has to step 222 00:13:42,476 --> 00:13:45,836 Speaker 1: down because of term limits. Jimmy Carter takes over as 223 00:13:45,876 --> 00:13:49,316 Speaker 1: governor of Georgia as the state, he might say, returns 224 00:13:49,356 --> 00:13:53,556 Speaker 1: to its senses, and Maddox consoles himself with running for 225 00:13:53,756 --> 00:13:57,156 Speaker 1: and winning the job of lieutenant governor. He is well 226 00:13:57,196 --> 00:14:00,716 Speaker 1: on his way to obscurity. And then he gets a 227 00:14:00,716 --> 00:14:03,636 Speaker 1: call from New York from the Dick Cavot Show, the 228 00:14:03,676 --> 00:14:07,236 Speaker 1: great late night talk show of the nineteen seventies. They 229 00:14:07,276 --> 00:14:10,916 Speaker 1: want him as a guest. That's when we return. 230 00:14:18,756 --> 00:14:19,956 Speaker 3: In America. 231 00:14:20,716 --> 00:14:28,276 Speaker 5: You get foody, won't have to run through the jungle 232 00:14:28,356 --> 00:14:30,036 Speaker 5: and scuff up you feel. 233 00:14:30,556 --> 00:14:33,876 Speaker 1: The first Randy Newman song I ever heard was sail Away. 234 00:14:33,916 --> 00:14:40,796 Speaker 5: You just sing about Jesus and drink wine all day. 235 00:14:40,836 --> 00:14:43,596 Speaker 5: It's great to be an American. 236 00:14:44,516 --> 00:14:46,876 Speaker 1: Sail Away is the title track of the album Randy 237 00:14:46,916 --> 00:14:49,716 Speaker 1: Newman made right before he wrote Good Old Boys. I 238 00:14:49,756 --> 00:14:51,756 Speaker 1: was a kid when I first heard it, and I 239 00:14:51,796 --> 00:14:54,516 Speaker 1: had the same experience I would later have with Newman's 240 00:14:54,516 --> 00:14:58,116 Speaker 1: other songs. I didn't get it at first. I'm not 241 00:14:58,196 --> 00:15:01,356 Speaker 1: sure I even paid attention to the words. I just 242 00:15:01,436 --> 00:15:02,716 Speaker 1: loved how grand it was. 243 00:15:05,276 --> 00:15:13,996 Speaker 5: Nain, no land, no MoMA's name, just sweet wall a 244 00:15:14,196 --> 00:15:15,716 Speaker 5: melody in the bug. 245 00:15:15,516 --> 00:15:16,556 Speaker 3: Week, Keep. 246 00:15:19,756 --> 00:15:28,676 Speaker 5: Everybody's happy as make me clamb a ball, little log, 247 00:15:28,876 --> 00:15:30,196 Speaker 5: stay the way winny. 248 00:15:31,716 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 1: But then I got a little older, and as I 249 00:15:33,796 --> 00:15:38,356 Speaker 1: heard sail Away, I said, wait a minute, everybody is 250 00:15:38,396 --> 00:15:42,836 Speaker 1: as happy as a man can be. Climb aboard little 251 00:15:42,916 --> 00:15:48,156 Speaker 1: Wog sail away with me. Wog really offensive British colonial 252 00:15:48,236 --> 00:15:51,916 Speaker 1: slang for someone who's not white. It's the N word. Basically, 253 00:15:52,476 --> 00:15:57,436 Speaker 1: I noticed some interesting story at behind sail Away, the song, Oh. 254 00:15:57,156 --> 00:15:59,916 Speaker 4: It was a A guy was going to make a 255 00:15:59,956 --> 00:16:02,956 Speaker 4: movie and he was going to give ten minutes to 256 00:16:04,236 --> 00:16:07,836 Speaker 4: five or six pop people, Van Morrison, I remember, and 257 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:13,276 Speaker 4: Hendrickson to do ten minute thing, and I came up 258 00:16:13,276 --> 00:16:15,116 Speaker 4: with this thing. It had a sort of a sea 259 00:16:15,196 --> 00:16:19,316 Speaker 4: shanny before it, you know, very irish kind of yo 260 00:16:19,476 --> 00:16:23,916 Speaker 4: ho you know there, and then this guy be standing 261 00:16:23,916 --> 00:16:28,076 Speaker 4: in a clearing in the jungle and singing this song, 262 00:16:28,276 --> 00:16:29,876 Speaker 4: and that was what I was going to do with 263 00:16:29,956 --> 00:16:30,716 Speaker 4: my ten minutes. 264 00:16:31,556 --> 00:16:34,996 Speaker 1: Randy Newman wrote a song about an American slave trader 265 00:16:35,476 --> 00:16:39,316 Speaker 1: standing somewhere in West Africa giving his sales pitch to 266 00:16:39,396 --> 00:16:44,156 Speaker 1: potential recruits. Come to America. You're gonna love this little 267 00:16:44,156 --> 00:16:46,316 Speaker 1: cotton plantation that I've lined up for you. 268 00:16:47,596 --> 00:16:52,836 Speaker 4: Oh no, lion tied, No moms sleep. It's a sweet 269 00:16:52,956 --> 00:16:57,756 Speaker 4: watermelon and a book. It's the nose laugh. 270 00:16:58,236 --> 00:16:58,756 Speaker 3: Yeah. 271 00:16:58,836 --> 00:17:03,316 Speaker 1: The character is so kind of outrageous. Yeah, but we're 272 00:17:03,356 --> 00:17:05,796 Speaker 1: not laughing along with him. We're horrified by him. 273 00:17:05,796 --> 00:17:08,716 Speaker 4: I mean it's yeah, but people laugh at that in 274 00:17:08,716 --> 00:17:14,396 Speaker 4: a nerve sway at the watermelon joke and sit around 275 00:17:14,636 --> 00:17:16,516 Speaker 4: think about Jesus, drink wine all day. 276 00:17:17,116 --> 00:17:18,876 Speaker 1: Now, there's a way to do that song so that 277 00:17:18,916 --> 00:17:25,356 Speaker 1: it's not so shocking, in like the cover version done 278 00:17:25,396 --> 00:17:28,076 Speaker 1: later the same year by Bobby Darren, who was one 279 00:17:28,076 --> 00:17:30,516 Speaker 1: of the biggest pop stars of the nineteen sixties. 280 00:17:30,756 --> 00:17:33,236 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, wrong, Through the Jungle. 281 00:17:33,756 --> 00:17:35,196 Speaker 3: Bobby Darren is happy. 282 00:17:35,356 --> 00:17:38,516 Speaker 4: Yeah, come to America a little one when we get 283 00:17:38,596 --> 00:17:39,156 Speaker 4: rid of the wag. 284 00:17:39,916 --> 00:17:44,316 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's that's like blasphemy. 285 00:17:45,756 --> 00:17:46,556 Speaker 7: I'm barn. 286 00:17:46,796 --> 00:17:49,316 Speaker 3: Little one sail away with me. 287 00:17:50,636 --> 00:17:54,516 Speaker 1: In Bobby Darren's version, the line climb a board, little 288 00:17:54,636 --> 00:17:58,436 Speaker 1: wog sail away with me, which is crucial in establishing 289 00:17:58,436 --> 00:18:03,036 Speaker 1: how vile the narrator is, becomes climb a board, little one, 290 00:18:03,516 --> 00:18:05,596 Speaker 1: sail away with me. But I'm sorry, I can't get 291 00:18:05,636 --> 00:18:09,316 Speaker 1: I can't get pass it so quickly. That's unbelievable that he. 292 00:18:09,276 --> 00:18:10,116 Speaker 3: Did a happy version. 293 00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:12,356 Speaker 1: Yes, it's this. 294 00:18:12,556 --> 00:18:15,036 Speaker 3: It isn't there's there it is. 295 00:18:15,276 --> 00:18:18,756 Speaker 1: The thing is Newman liked Bobby Darren. He knew him, 296 00:18:18,956 --> 00:18:21,716 Speaker 1: and he didn't know what to think. I mean, there 297 00:18:21,796 --> 00:18:26,036 Speaker 1: is a world of difference between wog and one. Also, 298 00:18:26,236 --> 00:18:30,596 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, Bobby Darren substitutes the words mamba 299 00:18:30,676 --> 00:18:35,916 Speaker 1: snake with mama snake eight no lions and tigers and 300 00:18:35,956 --> 00:18:37,556 Speaker 1: no nurturing mama snake. 301 00:18:38,116 --> 00:18:38,276 Speaker 5: You know. 302 00:18:38,676 --> 00:18:41,116 Speaker 4: He was all, do I like to do that? And 303 00:18:41,156 --> 00:18:45,676 Speaker 4: it's like, come to America, you know, become But this 304 00:18:45,756 --> 00:18:48,036 Speaker 4: is this, this song is like this is not a 305 00:18:48,116 --> 00:18:48,836 Speaker 4: dumb guy either. 306 00:18:49,236 --> 00:18:52,276 Speaker 1: This is this song is like a. It is a wallop. 307 00:18:52,356 --> 00:18:56,996 Speaker 1: It is emotional wallop. This searing song about this the 308 00:18:57,076 --> 00:18:58,836 Speaker 1: darkest moment in America's past. 309 00:18:58,916 --> 00:19:04,636 Speaker 4: It's a jaw dress like springtime for Hitler, A little one, 310 00:19:04,836 --> 00:19:08,236 Speaker 4: little wo like come away with me. You know, it 311 00:19:08,396 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 4: just was so right his Shulvia's instincts. Couldn't they restrain himself. 312 00:19:15,196 --> 00:19:17,036 Speaker 1: How did you feel when you first heard that version? 313 00:19:18,236 --> 00:19:21,796 Speaker 4: I felt, you know, oh my Jesus Christ. And that 314 00:19:21,916 --> 00:19:22,156 Speaker 4: was it. 315 00:19:22,716 --> 00:19:25,516 Speaker 1: The original intention of sail Away was to make the 316 00:19:25,596 --> 00:19:31,316 Speaker 1: listener uncomfortable. Newman takes a familiar figure, a salesman, an entrepreneur, 317 00:19:31,516 --> 00:19:35,676 Speaker 1: a patriot, and gives him a rollicking sea shanty. But 318 00:19:35,796 --> 00:19:39,276 Speaker 1: then he forces you to acknowledge that underneath all that 319 00:19:39,996 --> 00:19:44,316 Speaker 1: there looks a monster. Bobby Darren chickened out. He couldn't 320 00:19:44,316 --> 00:19:47,116 Speaker 1: do it. He didn't want us to be uncomfortable, and 321 00:19:47,156 --> 00:19:51,676 Speaker 1: so Wog became one and sail Away became a glorified 322 00:19:51,796 --> 00:19:55,516 Speaker 1: nursery rhyme. I don't mean to single Bobby Darren out, 323 00:19:55,716 --> 00:19:57,796 Speaker 1: because I think that most of us take the easy 324 00:19:57,836 --> 00:20:01,796 Speaker 1: path in these situations too. But the particular genius of 325 00:20:01,876 --> 00:20:05,596 Speaker 1: Randy Newman is that he won't do that. He can't. 326 00:20:10,596 --> 00:20:11,596 Speaker 7: Dick Cavat show. 327 00:20:13,996 --> 00:20:17,716 Speaker 1: So it's nineteen seventy. Lester Maddox gets a call from 328 00:20:17,716 --> 00:20:20,796 Speaker 1: Dick Caviot, come on our show. He flies to New 329 00:20:20,876 --> 00:20:25,956 Speaker 1: York and who tunes in that night, Randy Newman, Ladies 330 00:20:25,996 --> 00:20:34,356 Speaker 1: and gentlemen, Dick Cabot. Dick Caviot is a year into 331 00:20:34,396 --> 00:20:37,956 Speaker 1: his legendary late night show on ABC, up against Johnny 332 00:20:37,956 --> 00:20:41,836 Speaker 1: Carson's Tonight Show. Cavit show was like a highlight reel 333 00:20:41,876 --> 00:20:44,796 Speaker 1: of the nineteen seventies. He did the greatest ever interview 334 00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:48,436 Speaker 1: with Jimmy Hendrix. Groucho Marx was a regular, so was 335 00:20:48,516 --> 00:20:51,476 Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali. He once had Salvador Dally on the same 336 00:20:51,516 --> 00:20:55,356 Speaker 1: show as a legendary pitching great Satchel Page. The famous 337 00:20:55,356 --> 00:20:59,716 Speaker 1: debate between Gorvadal and Norman Mailer that was on Dick Caviot. 338 00:21:00,356 --> 00:21:01,076 Speaker 3: Listen, we have a. 339 00:21:01,156 --> 00:21:03,036 Speaker 9: Very good show tonight, and I want to move right 340 00:21:03,076 --> 00:21:06,236 Speaker 9: into it. An excellent show. I think, I don't know, 341 00:21:06,276 --> 00:21:07,636 Speaker 9: how do I know? I haven't seen it. It might be 342 00:21:07,676 --> 00:21:10,876 Speaker 9: a big dead b aw. Why do people say that 343 00:21:10,916 --> 00:21:11,996 Speaker 9: at the beginning of a show. 344 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:15,636 Speaker 1: Cavat looks like Paul Newman's baby brother. No more than 345 00:21:15,676 --> 00:21:20,236 Speaker 1: five six impish big polka dotted tie. His first guest 346 00:21:20,276 --> 00:21:22,956 Speaker 1: is a woman named Alice Gray, an entomologist from the 347 00:21:22,996 --> 00:21:26,916 Speaker 1: American Museum of Natural History, cat eye, glasses, hair, and 348 00:21:26,956 --> 00:21:29,996 Speaker 1: a bun who brings a box full of cockroaches to 349 00:21:30,036 --> 00:21:30,396 Speaker 1: the set. 350 00:21:30,636 --> 00:21:32,356 Speaker 9: What can we do about then? What can we learn 351 00:21:32,396 --> 00:21:33,676 Speaker 9: about them? Are they our friends? 352 00:21:35,076 --> 00:21:37,996 Speaker 7: No, they're not exactly our friends, but there are certainly 353 00:21:38,036 --> 00:21:39,596 Speaker 7: our companions. 354 00:21:39,756 --> 00:21:40,476 Speaker 5: And all our. 355 00:21:42,436 --> 00:21:45,276 Speaker 4: All our doings, and I'm rather fond of them. 356 00:21:45,476 --> 00:21:48,356 Speaker 7: They have a distinguished ledge. How many of us could 357 00:21:48,356 --> 00:21:50,836 Speaker 7: meet our ancestors of three hundred million years ago and 358 00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:52,636 Speaker 7: recognize them the cockroaches? 359 00:21:52,676 --> 00:21:54,276 Speaker 9: Can they go back that far? 360 00:21:54,356 --> 00:21:55,076 Speaker 1: They go back that far. 361 00:21:55,476 --> 00:21:57,196 Speaker 9: It's older than the dinosaurs. 362 00:21:56,636 --> 00:21:58,636 Speaker 7: Twice as old as the dinosaurs. All the way back 363 00:21:58,676 --> 00:22:01,796 Speaker 7: to the coald Age, they were already recognizably cockroaches. 364 00:22:03,276 --> 00:22:05,636 Speaker 9: That's it's always the people who don't like We're the 365 00:22:05,716 --> 00:22:09,396 Speaker 9: last to leave, isn't it. 366 00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:11,636 Speaker 7: They'll be here long after we have quitted this earth. 367 00:22:11,676 --> 00:22:15,556 Speaker 1: I'm sure Cavot does a good ten minutes. I cockroaches 368 00:22:15,756 --> 00:22:16,076 Speaker 1: are these? 369 00:22:16,196 --> 00:22:17,836 Speaker 9: Your cockroaches are some of ours? 370 00:22:19,316 --> 00:22:23,236 Speaker 1: The cockroach lady finally leaves the stage, and then. 371 00:22:23,596 --> 00:22:25,516 Speaker 9: My next guest tonight is Governor Lester Maddox. 372 00:22:28,836 --> 00:22:33,636 Speaker 1: How comes Maddox, the gleaming bald head, the black suit Governorm. 373 00:22:33,316 --> 00:22:36,716 Speaker 9: Maddox, I still call you, Governor, Dont call me mostly 374 00:22:36,756 --> 00:22:40,916 Speaker 9: innything you won't do everybody else does? Have you ever 375 00:22:40,956 --> 00:22:42,036 Speaker 9: followed bugs before? 376 00:22:42,836 --> 00:22:44,716 Speaker 7: Yes, a few moments ago on your problems. 377 00:22:44,996 --> 00:22:45,716 Speaker 3: That's the only time. 378 00:22:46,076 --> 00:22:49,716 Speaker 1: That's the only time. God, I love Dick Cavit. They 379 00:22:49,756 --> 00:22:53,876 Speaker 1: shake hands, they take their seats rust colored swivel loungers 380 00:22:53,876 --> 00:22:56,836 Speaker 1: atop a gray shag carpet. Kavit shows the audience a 381 00:22:56,836 --> 00:23:01,116 Speaker 1: photograph of Maddox holding his axe handle outside the Pickrick restaurant, 382 00:23:01,596 --> 00:23:05,156 Speaker 1: and Maddox then corrects him and says, no, it's not 383 00:23:05,196 --> 00:23:08,636 Speaker 1: an axe handle, it's a pickhandle, and goes off on 384 00:23:08,636 --> 00:23:11,716 Speaker 1: one of his long, endless digressions about the meaning of the. 385 00:23:11,676 --> 00:23:15,996 Speaker 7: Pickrick, theaw hard work. And we had in the restaurant 386 00:23:16,156 --> 00:23:18,636 Speaker 7: some of these pick candles, two cakes of them, by 387 00:23:18,636 --> 00:23:21,396 Speaker 7: a big old fireplace where we burned hickory wood. And 388 00:23:21,436 --> 00:23:23,236 Speaker 7: there were six of them in each of the cakes, 389 00:23:23,276 --> 00:23:27,196 Speaker 7: and they were dark red, because that was the look 390 00:23:27,316 --> 00:23:29,636 Speaker 7: something similar to a chicken leg or pick candle does 391 00:23:30,396 --> 00:23:32,036 Speaker 7: not like the axe handle. It's the news me he 392 00:23:32,116 --> 00:23:33,196 Speaker 7: talks about. 393 00:23:33,156 --> 00:23:37,716 Speaker 1: And Kaviot, who must be wondering what on earth, simply. 394 00:23:37,356 --> 00:23:39,356 Speaker 9: Says, well, I've certainly learned a lot. 395 00:23:41,716 --> 00:23:45,276 Speaker 1: Kaviot brings on his next guest, the football player Jim Brown, 396 00:23:45,556 --> 00:23:48,156 Speaker 1: then one of the most famous professional black athletes in 397 00:23:48,196 --> 00:23:51,756 Speaker 1: the country. Brown settles down next to Maddox, who is 398 00:23:51,796 --> 00:23:55,756 Speaker 1: literally half his size, and gives him a polite smile, 399 00:23:56,516 --> 00:23:58,236 Speaker 1: and Kavit says to the two of. 400 00:23:58,196 --> 00:24:00,156 Speaker 9: Them, do you feel separate but equal? 401 00:24:04,036 --> 00:24:07,316 Speaker 1: I realized that's nineteen sixties civil rights humor, but I 402 00:24:07,316 --> 00:24:10,756 Speaker 1: still think it's hilarious. Maddox turns to Brown and says, 403 00:24:11,276 --> 00:24:14,396 Speaker 1: I thought you was the singer he thought Jim Brown 404 00:24:15,036 --> 00:24:19,236 Speaker 1: was James Brown. He then volunteers his personal definition of 405 00:24:19,236 --> 00:24:21,596 Speaker 1: what being a segregationist really means. 406 00:24:22,116 --> 00:24:24,636 Speaker 7: A segregation is a person that loves his race enough 407 00:24:24,796 --> 00:24:27,516 Speaker 7: or all the racist enough has enough for racial pride 408 00:24:27,516 --> 00:24:30,396 Speaker 7: and integrity to want to preserve them. And I think 409 00:24:30,436 --> 00:24:32,396 Speaker 7: a racist is one that doesn't care enough for his 410 00:24:32,556 --> 00:24:34,956 Speaker 7: race or another race to where they would don't care 411 00:24:34,996 --> 00:24:38,796 Speaker 7: whether they are malcolmated or destroyed or not amalgamated. 412 00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:45,716 Speaker 1: Good lord, now think about this for a moment, Maddox 413 00:24:45,876 --> 00:24:48,996 Speaker 1: is no longer governor. Georgia has come to its sinces 414 00:24:49,036 --> 00:24:52,916 Speaker 1: an elected, nice, safe, modern, non racist Jimmy Carter Maddox 415 00:24:52,996 --> 00:24:55,916 Speaker 1: is a footnote, So what point is there in having 416 00:24:55,996 --> 00:24:59,116 Speaker 1: him on a mainstream talk show like Dick cavin The 417 00:24:59,156 --> 00:25:01,676 Speaker 1: magazine where I work, The New Yorker, had a case 418 00:25:01,796 --> 00:25:05,596 Speaker 1: like this recently. Donald Trump's Bengali Steve Bannon, was invited 419 00:25:05,636 --> 00:25:09,916 Speaker 1: to speak at the magazine's annual literary festival flipped out. 420 00:25:10,676 --> 00:25:13,076 Speaker 1: The New Yorkers writers took to Twitter. A bunch of 421 00:25:13,156 --> 00:25:16,956 Speaker 1: high profile celebrity invitees to the festival dropped out, and 422 00:25:16,996 --> 00:25:19,756 Speaker 1: the argument that was made about Bennon is an argument 423 00:25:19,796 --> 00:25:22,596 Speaker 1: that could as easily have been applied to Maddox years ago. 424 00:25:23,156 --> 00:25:26,676 Speaker 1: What's the point of giving someone like that a platform? 425 00:25:26,996 --> 00:25:30,396 Speaker 1: I mean, what could possibly be learned from listening to 426 00:25:30,476 --> 00:25:35,956 Speaker 1: them talk? And sure enough, what happens over the course 427 00:25:35,996 --> 00:25:38,916 Speaker 1: of the next hour of the Dick Cavit Show exactly 428 00:25:38,956 --> 00:25:39,676 Speaker 1: what you would think. 429 00:25:39,996 --> 00:25:42,236 Speaker 2: I think, what we're really talking about in this country's 430 00:25:42,236 --> 00:25:43,716 Speaker 2: economic development of black people. 431 00:25:43,796 --> 00:25:47,396 Speaker 1: At one point, Jim Brown says something thoughtful and reasonable 432 00:25:47,836 --> 00:25:50,556 Speaker 1: that he thinks the priority for black people ought to 433 00:25:50,596 --> 00:25:55,116 Speaker 1: be economic development, and Maddox jumps on him economic development. 434 00:25:55,156 --> 00:26:01,116 Speaker 7: All people, Well, we're talking about. 435 00:26:00,796 --> 00:26:04,356 Speaker 3: I'll tell you what I'll tell everybody. 436 00:26:03,836 --> 00:26:07,636 Speaker 7: Can I give you an answer? 437 00:26:08,676 --> 00:26:11,116 Speaker 3: Can I give Do you mind? 438 00:26:11,636 --> 00:26:13,476 Speaker 1: I'll go ahead, be ready, I'll give you fine. 439 00:26:13,676 --> 00:26:13,996 Speaker 3: Okay. 440 00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:16,996 Speaker 2: What I'm really saying is that there are some people 441 00:26:16,996 --> 00:26:20,036 Speaker 2: that have suffered in this country, poor people generally. But 442 00:26:20,116 --> 00:26:22,276 Speaker 2: let's say that we have various ethnic groups in this 443 00:26:22,316 --> 00:26:25,036 Speaker 2: country that have attained a certain kind of equality. Black 444 00:26:25,076 --> 00:26:28,476 Speaker 2: people are more or less along with the Indians on 445 00:26:28,596 --> 00:26:30,676 Speaker 2: the last wrong of the ladder. Can I finish together? 446 00:26:31,396 --> 00:26:34,236 Speaker 2: Can I finish? 447 00:26:34,636 --> 00:26:35,196 Speaker 3: Do you mind? 448 00:26:36,076 --> 00:26:36,236 Speaker 4: Now? 449 00:26:36,276 --> 00:26:38,876 Speaker 2: What I'm really saying is that I feel that the 450 00:26:38,916 --> 00:26:41,356 Speaker 2: way to bring about equality of black people in the 451 00:26:41,436 --> 00:26:41,876 Speaker 2: system is. 452 00:26:41,916 --> 00:26:44,316 Speaker 7: Through the white people. Now I'm gonna interrupt. You have time, 453 00:26:44,916 --> 00:26:47,516 Speaker 7: and black people, if. 454 00:26:47,356 --> 00:26:48,796 Speaker 3: You interrupt me, government, I can't talk to. 455 00:26:49,156 --> 00:26:51,916 Speaker 1: Then Maddox starts going on and on about all the 456 00:26:51,916 --> 00:26:54,516 Speaker 1: things he's done for black people in the State of Georgia, 457 00:26:55,036 --> 00:26:59,116 Speaker 1: and Jim Brown turns to him with genuine curiosity and 458 00:26:59,196 --> 00:27:02,636 Speaker 1: asks if he's had any blowback from white bigots. 459 00:27:03,116 --> 00:27:06,356 Speaker 2: The bigots have any problems with that from the white 460 00:27:06,356 --> 00:27:07,836 Speaker 2: biggoests because you did so much. 461 00:27:07,716 --> 00:27:10,076 Speaker 1: For the black man, Which is kind of a great question, 462 00:27:10,596 --> 00:27:14,036 Speaker 1: because if Maddox has in fact been this great friend 463 00:27:14,036 --> 00:27:16,876 Speaker 1: of black people, then you'd think he would have angered 464 00:27:16,996 --> 00:27:20,476 Speaker 1: all the hard core segregationists and everyone else who was 465 00:27:20,476 --> 00:27:21,956 Speaker 1: opposed to the civil rights movement. 466 00:27:22,596 --> 00:27:22,796 Speaker 5: Right. 467 00:27:23,316 --> 00:27:25,716 Speaker 9: Mister Brown asked your Governor Maddix, if you'd had any 468 00:27:25,756 --> 00:27:28,436 Speaker 9: trouble from your white admirers for the fact that you 469 00:27:28,516 --> 00:27:31,236 Speaker 9: have said no. He said, biggots, Well, what did you 470 00:27:31,276 --> 00:27:31,556 Speaker 9: say it? 471 00:27:31,676 --> 00:27:35,556 Speaker 7: Like he's said it, you have it? Why didn't you 472 00:27:35,556 --> 00:27:37,196 Speaker 7: say and I say that while I'm talking about Dick, 473 00:27:37,956 --> 00:27:40,276 Speaker 7: take words, put them around, and you mislead the people 474 00:27:40,276 --> 00:27:42,516 Speaker 7: in your audience, and all you ought to start being honest, 475 00:27:42,556 --> 00:27:44,956 Speaker 7: all of you with your words and what you're. 476 00:27:44,796 --> 00:27:45,476 Speaker 3: Saying to people. 477 00:27:46,116 --> 00:27:47,996 Speaker 7: You said admirers, and he said biggests a lot of 478 00:27:47,996 --> 00:27:48,756 Speaker 7: difference his name. 479 00:27:49,036 --> 00:27:51,756 Speaker 1: The last half of the show is just Maddox getting 480 00:27:51,796 --> 00:27:55,156 Speaker 1: more and more agitated, Dick Cavot trying to calm him down, 481 00:27:55,516 --> 00:27:58,036 Speaker 1: and Jim Brown looking over at Maddox like he's a 482 00:27:58,076 --> 00:28:03,996 Speaker 1: misbehaving child. Maddox asks Kavot to apologize. Kavot refuses, The 483 00:28:04,036 --> 00:28:07,596 Speaker 1: audience makes astonished noises. Maddox stands up and starts to 484 00:28:07,676 --> 00:28:11,916 Speaker 1: walk off the stage says, come on, sit down. Maddick says, 485 00:28:12,116 --> 00:28:13,956 Speaker 1: I'll sit down when you apologize. 486 00:28:14,356 --> 00:28:17,676 Speaker 9: So Cavit says, if I called any of your admirers 487 00:28:18,196 --> 00:28:22,036 Speaker 9: bigots who were not biggots, I apologize. 488 00:28:22,716 --> 00:28:26,196 Speaker 1: This is insane. What was Dick Cavot thinking inviting this 489 00:28:26,236 --> 00:28:26,876 Speaker 1: guy in a show? 490 00:28:27,156 --> 00:28:30,116 Speaker 7: Why don't you, Georgia have those friends of mine for 491 00:28:30,236 --> 00:28:33,796 Speaker 7: calling them biggots? I think I may way down. 492 00:28:36,436 --> 00:28:38,756 Speaker 9: I wait a minute, praise don't raise. 493 00:28:40,836 --> 00:28:44,996 Speaker 7: With Georgia and he owes them apology to the only biggas. 494 00:28:45,436 --> 00:28:46,196 Speaker 9: Wait, wait, wait. 495 00:28:46,876 --> 00:28:50,276 Speaker 1: Maddox gives Cabot an ultimatum one minute to take it 496 00:28:50,356 --> 00:28:53,356 Speaker 1: back or he'll walk out for good, at which point 497 00:28:53,476 --> 00:28:56,916 Speaker 1: Jim Brown pipes up, Wait what about me? How much 498 00:28:56,916 --> 00:28:59,156 Speaker 1: time do I have? It's a circus. 499 00:28:59,356 --> 00:29:01,276 Speaker 9: I would say that I phrased the question in a 500 00:29:01,276 --> 00:29:03,836 Speaker 9: way that was not exactly accurate, in the sense that 501 00:29:03,916 --> 00:29:08,276 Speaker 9: he did say biggots. Have any white bigots been upset 502 00:29:08,396 --> 00:29:10,396 Speaker 9: because you have done certain things about you? 503 00:29:10,476 --> 00:29:13,516 Speaker 7: Go back and said, my admirs, you haven't apologized yet, 504 00:29:13,516 --> 00:29:14,756 Speaker 7: and you got fifteen seconds? 505 00:29:16,996 --> 00:29:19,156 Speaker 9: All right, now, let me use those fifteen seconds. I 506 00:29:19,156 --> 00:29:23,236 Speaker 9: apologize for suggesting that a bigot would be the way 507 00:29:23,236 --> 00:29:28,716 Speaker 9: of characterizing all of your admirers. Wait a minute, Wait 508 00:29:28,716 --> 00:29:29,876 Speaker 9: a minute, there's more time. 509 00:29:32,196 --> 00:29:37,716 Speaker 1: And less dramatic storms off the set. Oh oh, and 510 00:29:37,756 --> 00:29:40,716 Speaker 1: I haven't even mentioned that the writer Truman Capoti then 511 00:29:40,756 --> 00:29:44,716 Speaker 1: shows up. He's then at the height of his celebrity, tiny, fastidious, 512 00:29:44,996 --> 00:29:47,596 Speaker 1: wearing purple tinted round sunglasses. 513 00:29:48,436 --> 00:29:52,356 Speaker 6: You know, carrieously enough. I had a cousin who lived 514 00:29:52,396 --> 00:29:55,316 Speaker 6: in Atlanta that I once went to visit, and who 515 00:29:55,316 --> 00:29:57,676 Speaker 6: took me to this restaurant. 516 00:29:57,196 --> 00:29:57,836 Speaker 2: That he ran. 517 00:29:57,996 --> 00:30:02,516 Speaker 6: It was called Picareb or something like that. You know, 518 00:30:03,076 --> 00:30:07,116 Speaker 6: well why a war. And he was always at the 519 00:30:07,156 --> 00:30:10,236 Speaker 6: door with guns, you know, to keep any any sort 520 00:30:10,276 --> 00:30:13,836 Speaker 6: of negroes out of the restaurant. But I went there 521 00:30:13,876 --> 00:30:16,676 Speaker 6: with this cousin of mine because he was near the campus, 522 00:30:16,716 --> 00:30:19,676 Speaker 6: the college campus. And he wasn't bad, but it wasn't 523 00:30:19,716 --> 00:30:20,716 Speaker 6: finger licking good. 524 00:30:27,156 --> 00:30:29,956 Speaker 1: The whole thing is so bananas. The cavit feels the 525 00:30:29,956 --> 00:30:31,756 Speaker 1: need to apologize to his audience. 526 00:30:32,436 --> 00:30:32,876 Speaker 3: I'm sorry. 527 00:30:32,876 --> 00:30:35,356 Speaker 9: The governor has left. I went outside just during the 528 00:30:35,356 --> 00:30:37,276 Speaker 9: break and he's out there with his hat and coat 529 00:30:37,276 --> 00:30:38,676 Speaker 9: on and asked him if he would please come back 530 00:30:38,716 --> 00:30:41,156 Speaker 9: and use the last minutes to say whatever he I 531 00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:44,636 Speaker 9: would like to say, because he felt that I guess 532 00:30:44,676 --> 00:30:48,836 Speaker 9: that he was insulted. I did not mean to insult 533 00:30:48,956 --> 00:30:50,916 Speaker 9: him at that moment. I have to say this, and 534 00:30:50,956 --> 00:30:53,596 Speaker 9: I hope I don't feel it doesn't come off sounding 535 00:30:54,796 --> 00:30:57,316 Speaker 9: I don't know what, but I found him in spite 536 00:30:57,316 --> 00:31:00,996 Speaker 9: of the fact that I would probably despise his feelings 537 00:31:00,996 --> 00:31:04,916 Speaker 9: about segregation if I were actually clear and what they 538 00:31:04,996 --> 00:31:08,996 Speaker 9: are A likable man, would anyone go along with? 539 00:31:09,676 --> 00:31:12,676 Speaker 1: Would you agree the audience is not having it? 540 00:31:12,956 --> 00:31:13,916 Speaker 3: Why is it what? 541 00:31:16,116 --> 00:31:17,956 Speaker 9: I'm not backing down? Shut up, I'll tell you when 542 00:31:17,956 --> 00:31:18,676 Speaker 9: I'm backing down. 543 00:31:19,076 --> 00:31:20,036 Speaker 3: We'll be back after this. 544 00:31:22,836 --> 00:31:25,876 Speaker 1: It was a farce. What was the point except to 545 00:31:25,916 --> 00:31:29,036 Speaker 1: allow a segregationist to play the victim? What good is 546 00:31:29,076 --> 00:31:33,036 Speaker 1: there in getting someone like that a platform? Except Randy 547 00:31:33,116 --> 00:31:36,596 Speaker 1: Newman was watching? Whose imagination has a mind of its own. 548 00:31:43,556 --> 00:31:46,916 Speaker 1: So were you a regular Dick Cavot watcher in those years? 549 00:31:47,436 --> 00:31:51,836 Speaker 4: Not that I recall I was, but I would watch, 550 00:31:51,876 --> 00:31:53,756 Speaker 4: and if I was up, i'd watch it. Yeah, And 551 00:31:53,796 --> 00:31:56,036 Speaker 4: I think I was usually up in those days. 552 00:31:56,636 --> 00:32:00,916 Speaker 1: And stereotypically you are the Dick Caviot audience, right, I 553 00:32:00,996 --> 00:32:01,836 Speaker 1: am yeah. 554 00:32:01,956 --> 00:32:05,076 Speaker 4: It seemed like half an hour you know where they 555 00:32:05,116 --> 00:32:08,196 Speaker 4: were just yelling and yelling and yelling. It was yeah, 556 00:32:08,316 --> 00:32:12,516 Speaker 4: it was so ah. I felt sorry for him. 557 00:32:12,876 --> 00:32:16,596 Speaker 1: He didn't dismiss that whole exchange or shrugged or changed 558 00:32:16,596 --> 00:32:20,236 Speaker 1: the channel. He reacted to it. He imagines what a 559 00:32:20,236 --> 00:32:23,716 Speaker 1: supporter of Lester Maddocks would think watching Lesterra Mattocks storm 560 00:32:23,756 --> 00:32:25,116 Speaker 1: off the stage. 561 00:32:25,556 --> 00:32:26,436 Speaker 7: I think I'm gonna give you. 562 00:32:26,476 --> 00:32:27,756 Speaker 8: I'm gonna give you one minute. 563 00:32:28,076 --> 00:32:30,476 Speaker 7: So cle Jackson's big for you, call big, I said, George, 564 00:32:30,596 --> 00:32:31,396 Speaker 7: I'm go on Aavey show. 565 00:32:31,396 --> 00:32:33,516 Speaker 1: Now you do whatever you won't do back. He gives 566 00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:38,756 Speaker 1: that imaginary supporter a name, Johnny Cutler, a home Birmingham, Alabama, 567 00:32:39,036 --> 00:32:42,676 Speaker 1: a job steel worker. He imagines Johnny Cutler coming home 568 00:32:42,716 --> 00:32:46,516 Speaker 1: one night, drunk, gazing at his sleeping wife, and then 569 00:32:46,716 --> 00:32:49,076 Speaker 1: he imagines him turning on the television. 570 00:32:50,076 --> 00:32:54,396 Speaker 5: Last night, I saw less Domatics on the TV show 571 00:32:55,716 --> 00:33:01,116 Speaker 5: with some smart ass New York Jew and the jew 572 00:33:01,276 --> 00:33:08,796 Speaker 5: laugh and less dematics, and the autist laughed less dematics too. 573 00:33:10,436 --> 00:33:14,276 Speaker 4: Will it maybe so smart as New York too? That's 574 00:33:14,276 --> 00:33:22,796 Speaker 4: good audience, last less that's pretty good. Clicker, clicker, clicker. 575 00:33:23,396 --> 00:33:26,116 Speaker 1: That became the first song on Good Old Boys. It's 576 00:33:26,116 --> 00:33:28,836 Speaker 1: called Rednecks. When I first heard that, I didn't know 577 00:33:28,916 --> 00:33:31,036 Speaker 1: Listra Max was. I didn't even know that it was. 578 00:33:31,356 --> 00:33:34,876 Speaker 1: But that idea of the Southerner going to New York 579 00:33:34,956 --> 00:33:35,716 Speaker 1: and sitting. 580 00:33:35,436 --> 00:33:39,196 Speaker 3: Down and thinking cabin as Jewish, too fantastic. 581 00:33:39,756 --> 00:33:42,916 Speaker 5: Will it may be a fool, but it's awfool. 582 00:33:44,276 --> 00:33:46,436 Speaker 3: Have to think the better than him. 583 00:33:46,796 --> 00:33:52,836 Speaker 5: They're wrong. So when I came to this park, I took. 584 00:33:52,956 --> 00:33:55,756 Speaker 1: You want to sing along, don't you? It's like sail 585 00:33:55,796 --> 00:33:56,876 Speaker 1: Away all over again. 586 00:33:57,396 --> 00:33:59,636 Speaker 3: Well I made this song. 587 00:34:03,036 --> 00:34:05,396 Speaker 1: But then comes this we talk. 588 00:34:05,716 --> 00:34:11,596 Speaker 5: We all fought it down here, drank too much and 589 00:34:11,876 --> 00:34:16,596 Speaker 5: we laughed too loud, too dumb to make it in 590 00:34:16,716 --> 00:34:21,436 Speaker 5: no g know all in town, the keeping nails down. 591 00:34:23,276 --> 00:34:27,076 Speaker 1: It's nineteen seventy. The South is in upheaval. Lester Mattis 592 00:34:27,116 --> 00:34:31,036 Speaker 1: has just been humiliated by some smartass New York jew 593 00:34:31,396 --> 00:34:33,476 Speaker 1: What do you think Johnny Cupp is gonna say? 594 00:34:33,596 --> 00:34:34,396 Speaker 5: College man? 595 00:34:34,996 --> 00:34:35,956 Speaker 3: I really is you? 596 00:34:37,876 --> 00:34:43,876 Speaker 5: When in dumb come out dumb too, Hustling around a 597 00:34:44,076 --> 00:34:48,916 Speaker 5: ladder in the alligator shoes, getting drunk every weekend into 598 00:34:48,956 --> 00:34:53,356 Speaker 5: barbecues and keeping the nilgus down. 599 00:34:53,836 --> 00:34:57,996 Speaker 1: How did people respond to that song at the time. 600 00:34:58,556 --> 00:35:05,596 Speaker 4: I played it in Lafayette? Uh, it was young and 601 00:35:05,636 --> 00:35:09,956 Speaker 4: they loved it. I got a letter, the only one 602 00:35:09,956 --> 00:35:14,596 Speaker 4: I ever got on this song from somebody, and he said, 603 00:35:14,996 --> 00:35:19,876 Speaker 4: dear sir, I was in the audience in Lafayette when 604 00:35:19,876 --> 00:35:24,316 Speaker 4: you played this song. He's a black kid, and he said, 605 00:35:26,836 --> 00:35:29,916 Speaker 4: I don't know where you're coming from, but there I was. 606 00:35:30,076 --> 00:35:32,836 Speaker 4: And I was enjoying the concert up to then, and 607 00:35:32,836 --> 00:35:34,516 Speaker 4: all of a sudden, I'm sitting in the middle of 608 00:35:34,556 --> 00:35:41,356 Speaker 4: fifteen hundred white guys yelling red next. We're red next, 609 00:35:41,396 --> 00:35:44,516 Speaker 4: you know. And he said it made him very uncomfortable, 610 00:35:44,996 --> 00:35:46,996 Speaker 4: and he wanted to let me know. 611 00:35:47,676 --> 00:35:50,756 Speaker 3: Weary, weary. 612 00:35:52,276 --> 00:35:58,396 Speaker 5: Did we don't know? I as normal, folding the ground weary. 613 00:35:58,556 --> 00:36:02,156 Speaker 1: Southern audiences started yelling for it so they could sing 614 00:36:02,236 --> 00:36:05,596 Speaker 1: along with the chorus. Did it become was it taken 615 00:36:05,636 --> 00:36:08,996 Speaker 1: over by didn't become a kind of Southern anthem for 616 00:36:09,196 --> 00:36:11,356 Speaker 1: certain kind of or did well? 617 00:36:11,396 --> 00:36:13,916 Speaker 4: I thought that that was happening. I stopped playing it, 618 00:36:14,236 --> 00:36:16,476 Speaker 4: you know, in the in the South. 619 00:36:17,276 --> 00:36:20,676 Speaker 1: He had to stop singing it. Many radio stations wouldn't 620 00:36:20,676 --> 00:36:23,476 Speaker 1: play it. And you definitely wouldn't hear that song on 621 00:36:23,556 --> 00:36:27,076 Speaker 1: the radio today. It even feels strange to play it here. 622 00:36:27,836 --> 00:36:32,596 Speaker 1: We've become appropriately uncomfortable with the N word in almost 623 00:36:32,636 --> 00:36:36,236 Speaker 1: any context. You can only play Rednecks now if you 624 00:36:36,316 --> 00:36:39,836 Speaker 1: explain where it came from and who Johnny Cutler was. 625 00:36:40,876 --> 00:36:43,676 Speaker 1: But you can't not play it just because it makes 626 00:36:43,676 --> 00:36:48,076 Speaker 1: you feel uncomfortable because Johnny Cutler in Birmingham, Alabama, in 627 00:36:48,196 --> 00:36:52,996 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy absolutely wanted to keep the niggers down, and 628 00:36:53,036 --> 00:36:56,116 Speaker 1: we can't gloss over that fact if we're being honest. 629 00:36:57,076 --> 00:37:01,036 Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, Johnny Cutler wasn't done down here. 630 00:37:01,156 --> 00:37:07,196 Speaker 5: We twigger to realive at the North, set the naga free. 631 00:37:07,796 --> 00:37:11,036 Speaker 1: He then names every slum in every northern city. 632 00:37:10,636 --> 00:37:14,516 Speaker 5: Putting a cage in Halem in New York City, it's 633 00:37:14,596 --> 00:37:17,236 Speaker 5: free to be putting a cage. On the South side 634 00:37:17,276 --> 00:37:20,196 Speaker 5: of Chicago, on the West side, it's free to be 635 00:37:20,316 --> 00:37:24,036 Speaker 5: putting a cage. And he's Saint Louis that put him 636 00:37:24,116 --> 00:37:28,076 Speaker 5: in a cage and huffing please, and then put him 637 00:37:28,116 --> 00:37:32,756 Speaker 5: in a cage filmont Sian Francisco and then put him 638 00:37:32,756 --> 00:37:36,716 Speaker 5: in the cage Lenox here in Bolston they gather. 639 00:37:36,796 --> 00:37:40,076 Speaker 1: He says to all those smug Northerners, when you drive 640 00:37:40,156 --> 00:37:42,756 Speaker 1: with your windows up and your door is locked through 641 00:37:42,796 --> 00:37:46,436 Speaker 1: the projects of your own inner cities, are you still 642 00:37:46,516 --> 00:37:51,196 Speaker 1: sure you're better than me? Now you have to play 643 00:37:51,196 --> 00:37:54,676 Speaker 1: that too, because if you're going to be honest about 644 00:37:54,716 --> 00:37:58,156 Speaker 1: who Lester Maddox really was, you have to be honest 645 00:37:58,436 --> 00:38:03,036 Speaker 1: about his critics too. Did you ever hear from Lester Maddox? 646 00:38:03,836 --> 00:38:05,836 Speaker 3: He sent me an axe He. 647 00:38:05,716 --> 00:38:09,596 Speaker 1: Didn't really, Oh, that's fantastic. 648 00:38:09,716 --> 00:38:12,396 Speaker 3: From his store he sold the ax handles. 649 00:38:12,516 --> 00:38:16,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, pickhandles. Lester Maddox listened to a song about 650 00:38:17,076 --> 00:38:19,756 Speaker 1: racial hatred, and he sent the man who wrote it 651 00:38:20,116 --> 00:38:35,436 Speaker 1: a pickhandle as a token of his gratitude. Revisionist History 652 00:38:35,596 --> 00:38:39,836 Speaker 1: is produced by me LaBelle and Jacob Smith with Camille Baptista. 653 00:38:40,436 --> 00:38:44,676 Speaker 1: Our editor is Julia Barton. Flon Williams is our engineer. 654 00:38:44,956 --> 00:38:48,876 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Beth Johnson. Original music by Luis Skierra. 655 00:38:49,356 --> 00:38:55,236 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Carle Migliori, Heather Fein, Maggie Taylor, Maya Kanig, 656 00:38:55,396 --> 00:38:59,076 Speaker 1: and Jacob Weisberg. Revision's History is brought to you by 657 00:38:59,116 --> 00:39:06,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Gladwell by the Way. There's a 658 00:39:06,876 --> 00:39:09,596 Speaker 1: great essay on this subject in the twenty five fourteen 659 00:39:09,636 --> 00:39:13,516 Speaker 1: book let The Devil Speak by Stephen Hart. Heart writes 660 00:39:13,556 --> 00:39:17,516 Speaker 1: that in sail Away, Randy Newman showed one of America's 661 00:39:17,516 --> 00:39:21,996 Speaker 1: greatest lies being crafted. In his next album, Newman would 662 00:39:22,036 --> 00:39:31,796 Speaker 1: show how the lie soaked into America's bones. Com aboard 663 00:39:31,836 --> 00:39:39,356 Speaker 1: Little One and yeah, got what you can't. 664 00:39:40,436 --> 00:39:42,916 Speaker 4: I think this is sort of happy. I mean, certainly 665 00:39:42,916 --> 00:39:47,156 Speaker 4: the voices make it that way. You can't do it, Yeah, 666 00:39:47,196 --> 00:39:57,636 Speaker 4: it's lost all of it's if you know, I like that, 667 00:40:01,356 --> 00:40:02,636 Speaker 4: Like it's something that delicacy. 668 00:40:02,876 --> 00:40:07,836 Speaker 1: You're getting a yeah, artisanal bakery.