1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 3: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 3: and we're back with part two in our series on 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 3: manta rays and their close mobulate relatives. In the last 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 3: episode of this series, we kicked things off by talking 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 3: about an experience that you had rob recently where you 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,919 Speaker 3: and your family got to see reef manta rays in 9 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 3: person while snorkeling in Indonesia, which sounds pretty amazing to 10 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 3: get the details on that right. 11 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, it was. It was amazing. Words can't quite 12 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: describe it. 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 3: Observing them, but not swimming quote with them, You weren't 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 3: You weren't riding the rays. 15 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 2: Correct, they were. They were doing their own thing. We 16 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 2: were trying to keep our distance and observe from a distance, 17 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: which which is the correct way of going about things. 18 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 3: So that was what inspired us to talk about man 19 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 3: in a series of episodes here on the show. In 20 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 3: the last episode, we talked about the historical evolution of 21 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 3: human attitudes toward manta rays with these old stories among 22 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 3: some divers and sailors that cast manta rays as diabolical 23 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 3: vampires of the sea. You know, there's one idea that 24 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 3: they will like fold over a diver like a blanket 25 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 3: of death. This, of course is not true, and since 26 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 3: it seems like since roughly the nineteen seventies there has 27 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 3: been more widespread recognition that mantas are gentle and not 28 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 3: threatening to humans, though of course that has not stopped 29 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 3: humans from threatening them, and we talked about all kinds 30 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 3: of ways that human activity can hurt these animals. These 31 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 3: impacts range from accidental harms, like when mantas are killed 32 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 3: as bycatch in commercial fishing. It's not what people are 33 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 3: fishing for, but they just get caught in nets and 34 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 3: other lines and other things, all the way to intentional targeting, 35 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 3: where they are killed for their gill plates, which some 36 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 3: people falsely allege to have medical powers. And in the 37 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 3: vein of talking about tall tales of mantas as vicious monsters, 38 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 3: we also discussed a couple of movies made in the 39 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 3: nineteen thirties that have a killer Manta Ray or devil 40 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 3: Ray as the monster. 41 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 2: I didn't mention this in that episode, but it's worth 42 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: noting that, you, of course have one of Aquaman's arch 43 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: Enemies is Black Manta. Oh, so you know, it's the 44 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: perfect mantle for a villain that was conceived. I believe 45 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 2: in this era you also have Man Ray, which is 46 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 2: a villain based on Black Manta that pops up on 47 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: SpongeBob SquarePants, not to be confused with the artist Man Ray. 48 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 3: I think Black Manta is actually in the Aquaman movie 49 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 3: with cal Drogo in it, isn't it. 50 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, who plays Black Manta? I don't I 51 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 2: haven't seen any of those films. 52 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 3: I don't remember any of the cast of that movie 53 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 3: except in Nicole Kidman in a really funny looking costume. 54 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 3: So I you know, folks out there, No, I'm not 55 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 3: the biggest superhero movie fan. I haven't kept up with 56 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 3: all of the Marvel and DC superhero films, but I 57 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 3: think I watched Aquaman on a plane for some reason. 58 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 3: I remember thinking it was really funny, like highly amusing. 59 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 3: Oh no, wait, I remember another cast member had Patrick 60 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 3: Wilson like riding on a shark and saying, you will 61 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 3: call me ocean Master. 62 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 2: I need to watch those on an airplane sometime. 63 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 3: Yes, Jason Momoa, I'm sorry I called him Caldroco. 64 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 4: That's not nice. His name is Jason Momoa. 65 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: Suffice to say, however, the Western American European conceptions of 66 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 2: the manta ray and related species have evolved since basically 67 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,839 Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies. The nineteen seventies onward. Everyone has come 68 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: to realize that manta rays are peaceful giants of the 69 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: ocean and they are not out to eat us. 70 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 3: Right, And so we also talked about modern conservation efforts 71 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 3: aimed at protecting manta's You know, we got into like 72 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 3: the cost benefit analysis that has to be done if 73 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 3: you're considering building something like an ecological tourism trade around them. 74 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 3: You know, there are risks but also potentially rewards. And 75 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 3: we also talked about the basic biology of manta rays 76 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 3: and their near relatives, their near relatives being the devil rays. 77 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 3: Mantas and devil rays together make up the genus Mobula. 78 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 3: And we got into subjects including their body design, common 79 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 3: feeding strategies, and leaping or breaching behavior where they jump 80 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 3: out of the water and slap back down. We talked 81 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 3: about some reasons they might do that. And we're back 82 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 3: today to talk about more. 83 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're gonna we're gonna pick up in an 84 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: interesting area, you're gonna you're gonna get into some some 85 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: more myths or potential myths about their behavior and what 86 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: we may or may not know about those behaviors. 87 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 3: Now right, well, I think this might be slightly different 88 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 3: because it would be truths about their behavior with mythical interpretations, 89 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 3: if that makes any sense. So in the last episode, 90 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 3: we were talking about these incorrect folk beliefs about the 91 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 3: man you know that they would attack boats or attack 92 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 3: divers in the form of this underwater death blanket. And 93 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 3: as a source there I referenced an old article called 94 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 3: the Story of the Devilfish from the ear Way back 95 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 3: in the year nineteen ten by the American biologist Theodore 96 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 3: gil There was another thread in this article that I 97 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 3: found interesting and I wanted to come back to it today. 98 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 3: So if you'll recall from last time, in this article Gil, 99 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 3: he's very dismissive of the belief that the manta tries 100 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 3: to smother divers with its body or devour them with 101 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 3: its gaping mouth. He points out that the manta is 102 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 3: a filter feeder which eats tiny planktonic organisms. It does 103 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 3: not eat large prey. There's no evidence of manta's targeting 104 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 3: humans for violence, and they don't even have the right 105 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 3: biological equipment to eat us if they were going to 106 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 3: try to do that, which they're not going to try. 107 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 3: But there is another part of the manta's more frightening 108 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 3: reputation in pre modern times, which is the belief that 109 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 3: mantas will attack boats, not divers, but boats, particularly the 110 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 3: claim that a manta will drag a boat out to 111 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 3: sea by the anchor line. So here I'm going to 112 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 3: read a passage from Gill's article quote in one of 113 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 3: the earliest Notices of the Devilfish by John Lawson in 114 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 3: the History of Carolina seventeen fourteen. This peculiarity is described 115 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 3: the devilfish, he says, has been known to weigh a 116 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 3: ship's anchor and run with the vessel a league or 117 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 3: two and bring her back against tide to almost the 118 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 3: same place. But then the quote ends, and Gill goes 119 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 3: on to say later notices do not give the animal 120 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 3: credit for the same accommodating treatment, And he later alludes 121 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 3: to these other accounts that tell of the devilfish pulling 122 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 3: sailing boats around by the anchor, to the wonder and 123 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 3: fear of the sailors, and he also cites a more 124 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 3: recent source to him at the time of his writing. 125 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 3: This was a French naturalist named Leon de Guett describing 126 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 3: the activity of pearl fishers in the Gulf of California 127 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 3: in a text from eighteen ninety eight, and according to Deget, 128 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 3: when fishers are caught out at sea overnight in the 129 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 3: Gulf of California away from their usual mooring places, he says, 130 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 3: they will always drop two anchors because they fear that 131 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 3: if they only drop one, the anchor line will be 132 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 3: seized by the devilfish in the dark, and thus the 133 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 3: boat will be carried away into the open sea. And 134 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 3: to get back to this up with his own observation, 135 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 3: telling a story of how he was sent out to 136 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 3: harpoon a specimen of a devil ray for the Natural 137 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 3: History Museum of Paris, and he says, quote, after one 138 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 3: had been harpooned, it turned back on the boat, seized 139 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 3: the bow with its head fins, and held it in 140 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 3: its clasp till it was lanced the second time. So 141 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 3: that's Deget's account. But Gil says even this direct observation 142 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 3: does not really lend credence to the idea that Mantas 143 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 3: or devil rays deliberately attack detain or hijack boats because, 144 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 3: based on his own study, Gil writes that this kind 145 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 3: of grasping with the headfins is automatic. He says, it's 146 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 3: an involuntary muscular reaction when something is in front of 147 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: the ray's mouth, so in this case, it might happen 148 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 3: to be the bow of the harpooner's boat. And so 149 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 3: even when it's being attacked by somebody on the boat, 150 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 3: when it's being harpooned, Gill argues that the ray was 151 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: probably not actually trying to harm the boat, but rather 152 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 3: was just being pulled toward the boat by the tension 153 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 3: of the rope on the harpoon it had just been 154 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 3: lanced with. And even to get himself the person originally 155 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 3: telling the story of it seizing the bow of the boat, 156 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 3: he says the devilfishes are generally timid, non aggressive animals. 157 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 3: Though then after saying this confusingly to get does seem open, 158 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 3: he sort of opens up more claims of devilfish savagery 159 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 3: and alleges that in the Gulf of California, quote numerous 160 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 3: cases have occurred of death resulting to divers as well 161 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 3: as bathers from encounters with the devilfish or manta as 162 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 3: the men call it. On the other hand, the carcasses 163 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 3: of many that are killed are used for bait for 164 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 3: other fishes. The strange detail to include. 165 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean all of this is a pardon 166 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 2: the terminology here, fishy because. 167 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 3: Dobous third hand Yeah. 168 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, because everything we know and have been 169 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 2: discussing about rays, when they're threatened, they use a burst 170 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 2: of speed, they get away. That's their major way of 171 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 2: defending themselves. So it doesn't really make sense based on 172 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: what we know that they would turn around an attack 173 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: of a ship or a boat, even if they are 174 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,479 Speaker 2: being acted upon with harpoons. 175 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 3: Right, And as we discussed last time, of course, they 176 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 3: are large animals, and any large animal could potentially hurt 177 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 3: you just by bumping into you. Wrong, But there is 178 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 3: really no evidence I could find of manta's being aggressive 179 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 3: toward humans except for these like old third hand stories. 180 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. 181 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 2: And I don't know if Gil gets into this or not, 182 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 2: but for one of the things with you get into 183 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 2: oral histories of things like the devilfish the manta, you 184 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: end up having to ask questions, well, is the manta 185 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 2: in this story, even if there's a kernel of truth 186 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 2: to it, Is it indeed talking about the species that 187 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 2: we are talking about as the manta ray, or is 188 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 2: it referring to something else real or imagined. 189 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, even back in nineteen ten, Gil to me 190 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 3: seems skeptical of these claims about it attacking boats. Certainly, 191 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 3: modern researchers are skeptical of these stories of manterray aggression 192 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 3: towards boats. But to the question of dragging boats specifically 193 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 3: by the anchor cable, is this just a tall tale 194 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 3: like the manta ray death blanket story or is there 195 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 3: something more to that? Is there any modern evidence of 196 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 3: things like this happening sort of? 197 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 4: This is yes. 198 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 3: For example, I found a Reuter's article from February eleventh, 199 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine, called motor boat no match for manta 200 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 3: ray in tug of war. 201 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: Well, I generally, you know, I generally trust Reuters in 202 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: their reporting. Though usual usually I'm not reading about the 203 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 2: marine biology. When I'm reading Reuters. Usually it's a nice 204 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: you know, doom scroll into the abyss. So I missed 205 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 2: this one when it came out. If I was in 206 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: fact reading Routers at the time. 207 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 3: I'll read from the beginning of the article and then 208 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 3: summarize some other parts of it and we can make 209 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 3: up our minds about it. Okay, what's going on here? 210 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 3: So Dateline New Smurta Beach, Florida. Two Florida boaters met 211 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 3: a real sea monster when their craft was dragged for 212 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 3: hours by a powerful creature that turned out to be 213 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: a giant manta ray, the Coastguard said Wednesday. Coastguard Petty 214 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 3: Officer Scott Barnes said the agency received a radio distress 215 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 3: call from a sixteen foot boat that reported it was 216 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 3: being dragged by its anchor line by something unknown. The 217 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 3: Coast Guard sent a rescue boat to investigate and found 218 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 3: the motor boat was being dragged in circles by something 219 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 3: beneath the surface. The crew transferred the anchor line to 220 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 3: the Coastguard vessel, freeing the men in the motor boat, 221 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 3: who had tried to use their ninety horsepower engine to 222 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 3: go in reverse and stop themselves from being dragged out 223 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 3: to sea. After the Coastguard's forty one foot boat pulled 224 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 3: the anchor line for several minutes, a giant manta ray, 225 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 3: measuring an estimated eighteen feet in width, came to the surface, 226 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:32,599 Speaker 3: and then the article goes on to describe how the 227 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 3: coastguard struggled to pull the rope away. Eventually, the manta 228 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 3: was able to disentangle itself from the rope and it 229 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 3: swam away on its own, And by the end of 230 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 3: the ordeal, the manta, they estimated, had pulled the boat 231 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 3: for almost two hours, taking it about a mile and 232 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 3: a half away from shore. But you could easily get 233 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 3: the wrong idea about this, thinking that it supports this 234 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 3: old notion that mantas will attack boats, that they are 235 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 3: doing this on purpose, they're trying to drag the sailors 236 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 3: out to sea, out to their deaths or something. From 237 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 3: what I've read, there is absolutely zero evidence to support 238 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 3: the idea that the mantas are acting aggressively when they 239 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 3: pull a boat by the anchor line. The zero evidence 240 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 3: that they're acting aggressively or even acting intentionally. Rather, this 241 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 3: is almost certainly a case of mantas getting stuck. They 242 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 3: are getting tangled in underwater ropes and chains by accident 243 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 3: and then pulling the boat because they are unable to 244 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 3: free themselves. And when you look at their heads, you 245 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 3: look up a picture of a manta ray or a 246 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 3: devil ray. You can see how this might easily happen. 247 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 3: They almost have biological mooring cleats with their cephalic fins. 248 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:56,599 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, you can imagine them catching the line. 249 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 3: For one more example of a mod encounter, I found 250 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 3: a video on YouTube that the title begins with Giant 251 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: mantray tangled in anchorchain, forty miles off shore. This is 252 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 3: a video of some people out in a fishing boat 253 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 3: in the Gulf of Mexico and a manta does get 254 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 3: caught in their anchor line. Like it looks when you 255 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 3: can see it, it looks like the line is not just 256 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 3: caught between the cephalic fins, but kind of wrapped around them, 257 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 3: like the lobes on its head have the line going 258 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 3: across as well as between, and you can see it 259 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 3: struggling at a couple of points. 260 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 4: In this video. 261 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 3: It quite strangely, almost seems to like be coming up 262 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 3: to the surface and holding still while the fishermen are 263 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 3: trying to get it untangled. That weirdly kind of matches. 264 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 3: But then I don't know how to interpret what I'm 265 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 3: seeing there, so maybe it shouldn't be taken this way, 266 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 3: but it kind of reminds me of all these stories 267 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 3: people talk about of manter rays being very like kind 268 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 3: of slow moving and gentle while they come up to 269 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 3: them and almost kind of letting people, you know, interact 270 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 3: with them. Again, not encouraging people to do that unless 271 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 3: you're trying to free one from a problem you've created. 272 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 3: But anyway, in the end here the people in the 273 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 3: boat are able to succeed by they sever the line 274 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 3: in one place and that allows them to get it 275 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 3: unwrapped from around the manta, and they let the manta 276 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 3: swim away. So it seems like the manta gets away 277 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 3: in the end of this, which is heartwarming. In fact, 278 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 3: all these like bro fishermen are like high five in 279 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 3: each other. They're like, yeah, we did it. 280 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 4: It's it's sweet. 281 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 3: But once again seems like a quite clear case of 282 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 3: like the manta is not doing this on purpose. It's 283 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 3: not it's not out here today thing say, and I'd 284 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 3: like to drag a boat around it ended up in 285 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 3: this situation against its will. 286 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like you said, the cephalic fins are kind 287 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: of look like natural line catchers, and then they're also 288 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 2: just quite i mean they're they're wing shaped, they're they're 289 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 2: they're quite wide. We've talked about their their wingspans, and yeah, 290 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: that's just more real estate to potentially run into a line. 291 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. 292 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 3: And so Gil talks about this in his article and 293 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: says that these the cephalic fins or cephalic lobes, the 294 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 3: kind of horns of the devilfish. They they're like an 295 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 3: elephant's trunk. He he quotes another author saying that then 296 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 3: they can kind of grasp objects and pull them in. 297 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 3: He says they tend to rapidly kind of close in 298 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 3: around the mouth when something appears in front of the mouth, 299 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 3: and that the fish will have a kind of obstinacy in, 300 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 3: you know, refusing to release things that go in like that. 301 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 3: Gil says quote that these arms are muscular and powerful 302 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 3: has been demonstrated on many occasions. The natural movement of 303 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 3: the head fins or corropteries is inward, and when any 304 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 3: object strikes between them, it is instinctively held a proceeding 305 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 3: which explains the undoubted fact that these fishes can run 306 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 3: away with quite large vessels. So Gil's chalking this up 307 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 3: to involuntary motion of the strong cephalic fins closing over 308 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 3: things that in the front of the mouth, which occasionally 309 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 3: in some unlucky circumstances just happens to be an anchor line. 310 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 3: I think gil is absolutely correct that these boat dragging 311 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 3: incidents are not aggressive or intentional on the part of 312 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 3: the ray, but is he correct about the mechanism. I 313 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 3: was looking for modern sources and couldn't really find anything 314 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 3: to confirm or deny his ideas there about the specific 315 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 3: motion of the cephalic fins being involved. But I did 316 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 3: find some commentary from more recent marine biology resources, specifically 317 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 3: something from the organization known as the Manta Trust, which 318 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 3: has a page on the subject of manta mooring line entanglements, 319 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 3: and they highlight some different biological facts which make mooring 320 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 3: line entanglements common for manta rays. Manta rays, like their 321 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 3: cousins sharks, and also like tuna, are obligate ram ventilators, 322 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 3: meaning they do not have the biological equipment needed to 323 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 3: pump water over their gills when their bodies are at rest. 324 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 3: So in order to make water flow over their gills 325 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 3: so they can extract oxygen from the water and breathe, 326 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 3: they have to move their bodies. So you've probably heard 327 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 3: before that if a shark is forced to hold still, 328 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 3: it will die. It has to swim to breathe. That 329 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 3: is essentially true, and it's true for mantas as well. 330 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 3: Fish that don't have to keep moving to breathe have 331 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 3: what's known as a buckle pump system, where you use 332 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 3: muscles around your mouth and throat to pump fresh water 333 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 3: over the gills. Mantis don't have that. They've got to swim. 334 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 2: Now, I do want to point out that Joe said 335 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: essentially true of sharks, so we can get into a 336 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 2: deeper discussion maybe in another episode where we talk about 337 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: the different behaviors of different types of sharks. You do 338 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: have some shark varieties that live in close to the 339 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 2: reef that are going to be that can be still 340 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: for extended periods of time. 341 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, they might actually have the buckle pumping equipment. But yeah, 342 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 3: like great white charts, for example, don't they're ram ventilators exactly. 343 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely true of great whites. 344 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 3: But anyway, certainly true of manta rays. They have to 345 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 3: swim in order to breathe. They are also ram ventilators. 346 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,959 Speaker 3: And so this means that getting entangled in a line 347 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 3: can be deadly to a manta if it is stuck 348 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 3: and it can't swim, around, it can't really breathe, and 349 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 3: this might also explain why a manta would keep swimming 350 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 3: even when it has a boat dragging behind it. It 351 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 3: kind of has to swim. Pair this with a couple 352 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 3: of other biological facts. Mantas can't swim backwards. You know, 353 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 3: they are highly maneuverable fish in a way. They can 354 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 3: turn around and you see them in the water doing 355 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 3: these beautiful summersalts and everything, but it's always with forward motion, 356 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 3: which usually means that the line just gets even more 357 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 3: tangled up on them as they twist and somer salt 358 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 3: around and they would need to really be able to 359 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 3: back up to release the line, but they can't back up. 360 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 2: Great point. 361 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 3: The other thing is that the manta trust says is 362 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 3: they are often not able to see the thin line 363 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 3: of a rope or a chain when it's directly in 364 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 3: front of them. And so you put all this together 365 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 3: and it easily explains how mantas can get tangled in 366 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 3: mooring lines and can end up pulling whatever these lines 367 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 3: are attached to. This is usually not threatening to humans, 368 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 3: but it is very threatening to the ray. Rays often 369 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 3: asphyxiate and die when they get caught in moorings, and 370 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 3: so the Manta Trust has this document where they make 371 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,959 Speaker 3: recommendations for making mooring lines safer for mantas. You can 372 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 3: actually look this document up on their website for the 373 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 3: full recommendations, but they suggest a few measures, like one 374 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 3: just reducing the presence of especially loose line in the water. 375 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 3: Loose or slack lines are more dangerous to raise than 376 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 3: tight lines. You can probably kind of imagine where they are, 377 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 3: like a looser line is easier to get fully just 378 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 3: tangled up in or as a taut line, you know, 379 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 3: you might more likely bump into and then something can 380 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 3: get Yeah. But then also they recommend this interesting system 381 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 3: that I don't know if I would have thought of this, 382 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 3: but this is cool. They recommend attaching cable ties that 383 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 3: protrude off of mooring lines at a ninety degree angle, 384 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: so you imagine, you know, something kind of like zip 385 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 3: ties or something like that, evenly spaced every foot or 386 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 3: so down a mooring line, and they recommend having them 387 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 3: go out around so there's like a little bar sticking 388 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 3: off of the side of the rope going in a 389 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 3: spiral around the rope all the way down, and the 390 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 3: idea here is that it will make the rope more 391 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 3: visible to wildlife, especially they say as you use it, 392 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 3: more algae will attach to the ends of these cable ties, 393 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 3: and it will make them even more visible. And of course, 394 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 3: if the rays can see the mooring lines, they will 395 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 3: avoid them. They're not going to run into them on purpose. 396 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 2: Okay, So if I'm understanding the illustration you attacked here, 397 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,959 Speaker 2: it's like a spiral staircase of zip ties going up 398 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 2: and down this particular line, and then, like you said, 399 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 2: you'll end up with the stuff growing on those ties 400 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 2: as well. 401 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it makes the rope easy to see in 402 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 3: the water instead of just like a thin kind of 403 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 3: line that is invisible. 404 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 2: Sometimes that makes sense. 405 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 3: However, at the very end here, I do want to 406 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 3: come back with some sympathy for the sailors because obviously 407 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 3: I think we have the correct perspective now, like we know, 408 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 3: rays are certainly not attacking boats. They're not trying to 409 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 3: kidnap sailors on purpose or drag the boats. You know, 410 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 3: they're not doing this on purpose. But you can very 411 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 3: well you can understand how it would be frightening to 412 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 3: have something under especially if you couldn't see it. I 413 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 3: don't know whether it be scarier actually if you could 414 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 3: see it or if you couldn't. If you could see 415 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 3: it might be like a twenty foot wide manta ray. 416 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's a gigantic and if you don't know 417 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: all the details, like we said last time, you know, 418 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: it's reasonable for a human to be trepidacious about this 419 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 2: enormous creature in the world water near them or with them. 420 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, And if you can't see it, just there's something 421 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 3: invisible under the water that's now pulling your boat around. Yeah, 422 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 3: and you don't know where it's taken you. So I 423 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 3: can understand being scared. 424 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 4: I mean like that. 425 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 3: I've got sympathy for that. But yeah, they're not out 426 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 3: there trying to do this. It's just unfortunate. 427 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 4: It happens sometimes, all right. 428 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 2: Now, at this point in the episode, I want to 429 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 2: come back and talk in a little more detail about 430 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: manta ray reproduction because in the last episode we talked 431 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 2: about how they're particularly vulnerable to various threats, you know, 432 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 2: threats posed by fishing, other human harms, in large part 433 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: because of their slow reproductive cycle. So I wanted to 434 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 2: get a little more into this. One of my main sources. 435 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 2: Here again is Guide to the Manta and Devil Rays 436 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 2: of the World by Stevens Fernando Dando in Dyscaria. Very 437 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: good book, lots of illustrations. It's technically like a field guide. 438 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not laminated, you can't take it into 439 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 2: the water with you, but it's a great field guide. 440 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 2: And the authors here point out that there are a 441 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 2: lot of gaps in our knowledge about manta ray and 442 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 2: devil rape reproduction, with most of what we know coming 443 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 2: from observations of reef mantas and limited scientific data in 444 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 2: addition to that. So bear that in mind, and I'll 445 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 2: tuck back in on that fact as well. But manta 446 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,959 Speaker 2: rays are not like most fish that much we've already established, 447 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: and it applies to their reproduction as well. Like all 448 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 2: elasmo broncs that's sharks and other batomorphs like rays, they 449 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 2: practice internal fertilization rather than external fertilization, which is practiced 450 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 2: by most fish species. So they have come so they 451 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 2: have to come into direct contact with each other in 452 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 2: order to. 453 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 3: Mate, right, So it's not like a releasing unfertil eggs 454 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 3: into the water which then encounter sperm in the water 455 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 3: and become fertilized externally like many fish do. 456 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no just like swimming close to each other 457 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 2: or both visiting the same spot at one point or 458 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 2: another that they do have to engage and what is 459 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: ultimately rather complex and kind of beautiful and maybe at 460 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 2: times humorous mating ritual. The other amazing thing about manta 461 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: reproduction is that, as with a minority of other fish species, 462 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: they are live bearers, meaning they give live birth via 463 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 2: an egg that hatches inside the female's uterus. This is 464 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: known as a placental viviparity. Now, as many people have 465 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: observed and some of your listeners might be thinking, this 466 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 2: practice would seem to be yet another way that the 467 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 2: manta rays resemble certain whale species. Yeah, you know what, 468 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 2: large oceanic filter feeders that give live birth. 469 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, they could easily be mistaken for a mammal. 470 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, but this is not the same as live mammalian birth. 471 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 2: And while whales lie on their mothers for the first 472 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 2: phase of their lives, mantas are on their own from 473 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 2: the moment they're born. They're just small versions of their 474 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 2: parents that have to just hit the ground running, you know, 475 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 2: not much smaller of course they're still they're still quite big. 476 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 2: A newborn is typically like one point five to one 477 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 2: point eight meters across, or like five to six feet. 478 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 2: Whoa yeah, and sometimes it's twins. That's a big baby. 479 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 2: All right, So let's walk through the courtship. I said 480 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: that it was beautiful and weird and sometimes funny again, Stevens, 481 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 2: that all point out that there's much we don't know. 482 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: This is a general description. A lot of it's based 483 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 2: on reef mantas, and they're going to be species specific variations, 484 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 2: and I believe it's possible there may be environmental differences 485 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 2: as well, depending on where the mantas are. But in general, 486 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 2: this is how it goes down. So a male will 487 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 2: approach a female and he'll shadow her from above, and 488 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 2: then he may attempt to rub the top of her 489 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: head with his cephalic fence the devil horns, right, and 490 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 2: usually what's going to take place at this point is 491 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: she's going to shake him. She's going to like, you know, 492 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 2: make a quick turn and say get away from me. 493 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 2: She's just going to reject his advances. 494 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 3: Okay, so devil horn back, rub and then bolt. 495 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, generally she's gonna bolt generally she's going to say 496 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 2: I'm not in the mood and she's going to go in. 497 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 2: But if she is interested, what she's going to do 498 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 2: instead is speed forward, and then he is going to 499 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: give chase. And as this chase continues, this is going 500 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 2: to draw in other males who will also give chase, 501 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 2: and we get another situation where we have a line 502 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 2: of manta rays. This time, you know, a train of 503 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 2: manta rays speeding through the water, you know, maybe around reefs, 504 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 2: and these can also kind of quickly get to our 505 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 2: eyes out at hand, like a thirty strong zooming train 506 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 2: of mantas that occasionally leaps out of the water as well. 507 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 3: This is kind of like the feeding structure you talked 508 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,959 Speaker 3: about in the last episode. What was the name of it. 509 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 3: It wasn't cyclone feeding, was it. That was when they 510 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 3: formed ring and they go around and round. But last 511 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 3: time when you talked about how there might be a 512 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 3: big cloud of zooplankton and they're eating them, and so 513 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 3: they line up in this row and they go through 514 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 3: and for some reason they get more food that way. 515 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, chain feeding. So yeah, this is reminiscent of 516 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 2: chain feeding. 517 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 3: Except not feeding here. This is the it's the first 518 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 3: one is trying to mate with the female. 519 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 2: Well, yes, well he's trying to to keep up with her. 520 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 2: And in general, she's going to try and shake loose 521 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 2: the less fit pursuers because now she doesn't just have 522 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 2: one manta. She may have up to thirty mantas behind her. 523 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: And this is crazy too. She may loop back around 524 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 2: and start chasing the last male in line, So now 525 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 2: we get another like just ring another sort of like 526 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 2: mating cyclone here, okay, or courtship cyclone, I guess, okay. 527 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: Other females may also be swept up in these processions, 528 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 2: which can result in one line splitting or two lines merging. 529 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 2: They also the authors here also mentioned that she may 530 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 2: end up chasing another female manta as well. So this 531 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 2: you start with one train of mansa's zooming through the water, 532 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: and it may go in different directions. It may split, 533 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 2: it may merge, it may loop back around on itself, 534 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 2: and yeah, it's quite spectacular, I'm to. 535 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 3: Understand, fascinating. Courtship is complicated. 536 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, in the course of this, old males are going 537 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 2: to fall fall away, they can't keep up. New mantas 538 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 2: are going to join in. They're like well, I'm fresh, 539 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 2: I'm ready to go. I think I might be able 540 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 2: to catch her. But the author's stress that she's not 541 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 2: actually trying to lose anyone. This isn't one of those 542 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 2: cases where it's like she doesn't want to mate and 543 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 2: it's just whichever male can catch her. It's not a 544 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 2: mating pursuit like you see with other species. She's seemingly 545 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 2: doing all of this to merely assess her suitors and 546 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 2: determine which one is displaying the greatest level of fitness. 547 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 2: But at the same time, the end result is going 548 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 2: to be only one man toa ray can still keep 549 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 2: up with her. 550 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 3: So you could look at this this is a kind 551 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 3: of mass organized mating dance of rich yeah, yeah. 552 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's it's very much a situation where it's 553 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 2: the individual with the greatest degree of fitness is going 554 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 2: to be the one that she mates with, and she 555 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 2: absolutely has to be choosy because a lot is writing 556 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 2: on her selection. And this comes again back to the 557 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 2: gestation period for romantis, which takes a little over a year, 558 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 2: and given the ups and downs of environmental factors, mainly 559 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: food in the wild, she's generally not going to be 560 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: able to reproduce every year anyway, Carrying such large offspring 561 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: to term is costly, and even when food is abundant, 562 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: she's just not going to be able to do it 563 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 2: every year, So there ends up being seasonal gaps, and 564 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 2: this generally breaks down to a pregnancy occurring every two 565 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 2: to three years, but the authors of this book point 566 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 2: out that the rate can be as low as once 567 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: every seven years in particular environments. Wow. And another factor 568 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: involved here in her choosiness is that she may reproduce, 569 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 2: she may mate rather multiple times during the breeding season, 570 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 2: but she's going to store sperm from multiple partners. This 571 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 2: is something we see in other organisms as well, and 572 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 2: then she can use the sperm she wants whenever she 573 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 2: finally gets to fertilizer eggs, whenever it's not finally the 574 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 2: right time to fertilizerr eggs. 575 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 5: Yeah. 576 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, sperm storage like this. I think we've talked about 577 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 3: this happening in some species of sharks also, Yeah, which 578 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 3: of course are closely related to rays. 579 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 2: So yeah, eventually one male is going to be left. 580 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 2: There can be only one. She's going to slow down 581 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: and allow him to shadow her again. You know, it 582 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 2: be you know more or less a top of her, 583 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 2: shadowing her. But then he is going to bite down 584 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 2: hard on her left wing tip, hard enough that this 585 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 2: is going to leave scarring. You can identify, you know, 586 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 2: females that have bred before in the wild because they 587 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: will have this scarring on there on their left wingtip. 588 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 2: I want to say, it's like in the high ninety 589 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 2: percents that it's the left wing tip testing. And once 590 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: he's he's bit down hard on it, and I think 591 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 2: there's a fair amount of wingtip like going into his mouth. 592 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 2: At this point, he's going to flip so that now 593 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 2: he's belly to belly with her, and then he's going 594 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 2: to use one of his claspers. There are two claspers 595 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 2: on the mail. It's going to use that to ejaculate 596 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 2: sperm into her kloeca. And then he's going to beat 597 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 2: his pectoral fins, causing the two of them to spiral 598 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 2: in the water. This is all going to last about 599 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: thirty seconds and then they're going to go their separate ways. 600 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 3: Wow, that's elaborate. 601 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. 602 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a whole diagram in the book here was 603 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 2: showing how all of this, all this elaborate dance eventually 604 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 2: comes to a closure. 605 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 3: It's funny you mentioned the biting down element because this 606 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 3: squares was something I think I was reading in preparation 607 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 3: for the first episode that we didn't end up talking about. 608 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 4: But the fact that that. 609 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 3: Manta rays don't have teeth that they use for feeding, 610 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 3: but the teeth are basically, you know, they've got these 611 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 3: little plates, you know, sort of mighty plates. Yeah, little 612 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 3: little tiny amounts of kind of nubby, little teeth that 613 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 3: are apparently only used in mating. 614 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 2: At any rate, they definitely bite pretty hard. Again, there 615 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 2: are some photos and you can look up photos of 616 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 2: mating scars and manta rays. 617 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 3: But so, okay, now the egg is fertilized and you 618 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 3: would have a gestation period. 619 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 2: Right, that's right. Yeah, more than a year of gestation follows. 620 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 2: And this is another area where we have to stress 621 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 2: that like we don't have I believe as even to 622 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 2: this day, I don't think we have any wild observations 623 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 2: of manta ray birth. At the time of this book's 624 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 2: publication in twenty eighteen, there had been I think just 625 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 2: a single incidence of a recorded captive birth at the 626 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 2: Okinawa Aquarium as in I think two thousand and seven. 627 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 2: Since that point, I believe the same aquarium and in 628 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 2: some cases the same manta ray with the same manta ray. 629 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 2: We've seen subsequent berths, with the most recent I believe 630 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 2: being twenty twenty four. You can look up videos. When 631 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 2: I was looking around, there's at least one video that 632 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 2: was easy to find. Some I think have been taken down, 633 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 2: but you can watch as this obviously pregnant female manta ray, 634 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 2: and sometimes you see the female manta rays in the wild. 635 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: Some of the Snorkel guides that we had in Indonesia 636 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 2: also pointed out that sometimes you'll just see a male 637 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 2: that happens to be really bloated, but generally you can 638 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 2: tell a pregnant female, and yeah, you can. You can 639 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 2: watch the miracle of birth as this this mother pushes 640 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 2: out a you know, a rather large and ready to 641 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 2: run manta. 642 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 3: I'm watching it right now. 643 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 4: It is amazing. 644 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 2: Wow. 645 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 3: And then oh yeah it uh it comes out kind 646 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 3: of in a clump, and it's not moving for a second, 647 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 3: and suddenly it just kind of twitches and then starts 648 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 3: jetting around. 649 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 4: Yeah. 650 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 2: I think I've seen this described as kind of like 651 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 2: a burrito before their their their their fins are curled 652 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 2: up over their backs, and you know, there's kind of 653 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 2: like a you know, cloud of material that comes out 654 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 2: with them, and then you know, they start moving and 655 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,839 Speaker 2: then they swim off and they are on their own. Again. 656 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 2: The there is no mother off bring relationship here. They 657 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 2: go their separate ways. But again, the newborn's actual egg 658 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: case would have hatched, if to use perhaps an incorrect 659 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 2: term here, sometime before, inside the female's uterus, and it 660 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 2: would have subsequently fed on the mother's uterine milk, which 661 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 2: in this case is known as histotrophe. 662 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 3: Manta ray uterine milk. I don't think we ever got 663 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 3: into that. We did an episode or a series of 664 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 3: episodes a ways back about non mammalian milk. 665 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's one of those things where is 666 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: it really milk? Yeah, no, no, but it kind of 667 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 2: serves the purpose of milk, yeah. 668 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 3: Because we talked about like dinosaurs perhaps producing a milk 669 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 3: like substance. 670 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 671 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:44,399 Speaker 4: Yeah. 672 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 2: But again this is to go back to what we 673 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 2: were talking about in the first episode. This is all 674 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 2: exactly the reason that manta rays have such a delicate 675 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:57,240 Speaker 2: place in their environments because again, long gestation period generally 676 00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: a single berth, and it's not happening every year. It's 677 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 2: you know, there are these big gaps between subsequent births, 678 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 2: so if there's any kind of targeted fishing or any 679 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 2: kind of factor that is that is eating into their population, 680 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 2: it's harder for them to bounce back. Yeah, all right, 681 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 2: Well we're going to go and close out this episode. 682 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 2: We will be back with I believe one more episode 683 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: on manta rays, and it should be an equally exciting 684 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 2: one because we're going to talk about their brains, we 685 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 2: are going to talk about their parasites, and we will 686 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 2: talk about cleaning stations, which if you don't know much 687 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 2: about manta cleaning stations or cleaning stations in general with 688 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 2: other species, you might think that this sounds like the 689 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 2: least exciting thing we could talk about, but it's actually 690 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:38,800 Speaker 2: really exciting. 691 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 4: Yes. Yes. 692 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 2: In the meantime, definitely right into us. We would love 693 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: to hear from anyone out there who has experiences encountering 694 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 2: manta rays or other rays in the wild. Do you 695 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 2: have any tales of tangled mantas. Have you also snorkeled 696 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: or scuba dived with mantas or seen them from boats? 697 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 2: What are your observations? Share with us your observations of 698 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 2: the Manta. Just a reminder that Stuff to Blow Your 699 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 2: Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core 700 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 2: episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We do a short form 701 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 2: episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays we set aside most 702 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 2: serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on 703 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 2: Weird House Cinema. You can get the podcast wherever you 704 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 2: get podcasts these days, wherever that happens to be. We 705 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 2: do ask that you rate and review, give us some stars. 706 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 2: That always helps us out. You can follow us on 707 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 2: social media in various places, and we're still trying to 708 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 2: build up our Instagram followers. If you use Instagram, find 709 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,720 Speaker 2: us as STBYM podcast Huge Things. 710 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 3: As always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 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