1 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: It's that time time, time, time, luck and load you. So, 2 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: Michael Vari Show is on the air. 3 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 2: Professor Marcus font is our guest. Professor. I interrupted you 4 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 2: in the middle. 5 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 3: So if you just kind of pick up rewind like 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 3: they do on the American Greet or any of other specials, 7 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 3: kind of catch us up to where we were. Keith 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 3: Morrison's great at this and then and then continue to 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 3: launch in because it's just fascinating. 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 4: Okay, well, give me a heads up if I'm running 11 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 4: down the wrong track here. I was talking about how 12 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 4: our large brains have forced women to have babies early 13 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 4: before the brain is fully developed, and as a consequence, 14 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 4: we have the birth of pretty helpless animals. You know, 15 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 4: it's very different, and much of the animal kicking is 16 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 4: when a when a baby giraffe is born, boy, they're 17 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 4: they're pretty much up and running within the first few 18 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 4: hours of life, whereas it takes years for humans to 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 4: reach full development. And then there's another thing going on 20 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 4: here which Darwin knew about when he was studying evolution, 21 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 4: and that is that it's not all about natural selection. 22 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 4: A natural selection being that the fittest survive in the 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 4: animal kingdom. But he also noticed that there was a 24 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 4: sexual selection going on, where for example, with some species 25 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 4: like gorillas and lions, big males fight with other big 26 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 4: males and the winner takes all, so they have harems basically, 27 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 4: and uh, and that's a true what I would call 28 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 4: a patriarchy, where where the society is controlled by males. 29 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 4: The male gorilla basically forces of the female to have 30 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 4: sex one in wherever he chooses because he's so much 31 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 4: larger two two and a half times larger than the 32 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 4: female and of course stronger than all the other males. 33 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 4: Now humans fall into the area of may preference, where 34 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 4: in our we do have some of the same things 35 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 4: gorilla's experience because men are about one point one point 36 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 4: five times larger than women. So we know that there's 37 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 4: some selection going on the way gorillas do it. Males compete, 38 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 4: but also women are selecting and men select too. But 39 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 4: women are choosing who they want to have children with 40 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 4: because they have to be careful as I mentioned earlier, 41 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 4: and this is known as may preference. And what are 42 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 4: women looking for? Well, primarily they're looking for men with 43 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 4: resources or men that can achieve resources to help in 44 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 4: male parental investments. And this has cost kind of a 45 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 4: clash men. Men that they're looking for are good hunters, 46 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 4: they're good trackers, They and protect women. They can also 47 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 4: form coalitions with other men to attack other villages, and 48 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 4: we see this throughout hunter gather society. And so I 49 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 4: think you can begin to see where men may have 50 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,839 Speaker 4: developed evolutionarily speaking, some characteristics that we see today. Men 51 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 4: are much more aggressive than women, and we have higher 52 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 4: risk tolerance. Women tend to be risk adverse. Women tend 53 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 4: to be nurtures. Men tend to be very aggressive and 54 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 4: interestingly enough, because they want they want to have sexual 55 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 4: relationships with women. They compete with other men, and women choose. 56 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 4: So this whole concept that feminism has about some patriarchy 57 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 4: where men are how to oppress women, or that our 58 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 4: behaviors masculine and feminine are created by society is kind 59 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 4: of almost a lie. It's a misinterpretation at the very least. 60 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 3: Okay, just to in a circle and put a bow 61 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,839 Speaker 3: on it, because sometimes I realize when we're not looking 62 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 3: at someone, it's harder to understand their argument. And this 63 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 3: is a this is an advanced argument. You're basically saying 64 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 3: then that you can't say that men want to oppress women, 65 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 3: and that is the underlying basis of feminism, of feminist 66 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 3: UH scholarship today, you cannot say that because it is 67 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 3: it is empirically untrue, because it's biologically not true and 68 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 3: has never. 69 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 4: Been absolutely And why not why. 70 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 3: Wouldn't women Let's just let's just play this out. Why 71 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 3: why wouldn't men want to oppress women? It's in my 72 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 3: it's in my best interest if other people are knocked down, 73 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 3: leaving me the tallest midget. Why wouldn't I want to 74 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 3: oppress women to my own good for the same reason 75 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 3: that doctor. 76 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: It's a barrier to entry, right. 77 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think I don't want you to misunderstand 78 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 4: me here. We all have We all have a desire 79 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 4: to some extent greater or lesser, to control our spouse. 80 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 4: That's obvious in that, you know, we don't want them 81 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 4: to have extramarial relationships. Most of us don't anyway, and 82 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 4: so each is trying to control the other to some extent. 83 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 4: But in general, there isn't a situation where men are 84 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 4: conspiring to oppress women. Women would argue that culture has 85 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 4: formed us to be masculine or formed us to be feminine, 86 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 4: and I mean women to be feminine, men to be masculine, 87 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 4: and that doesn't seem to be true at all when 88 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 4: you start looking at evolutionary psychology and biology. So did 89 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 4: I clarify that to some extent. 90 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't necessarily agree with my point. I just 91 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 3: made it for the sake of exploring that a little further. 92 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 3: I guess I'm interested in you know, you talk about 93 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: the biology of it, and that gets left out of 94 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 3: all of this. I'm very interested in the untamed, untouched, 95 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 3: uncorrupted man and woman, but particularly man as it relates 96 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 3: to other men and women if he's not inculcated beginning 97 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 3: with his mother as to what a boy should be, 98 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 3: and then with his female teachers who tell him to 99 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 3: tuck his wiener and sit quietly and basically, don't be 100 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 3: a boy, don't don't don't wrestle, don't fight, don't climb trees, 101 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 3: don't do dangerous things, don't be aggressive. And now now 102 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 3: they've advanced it to the point where we fill him 103 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 3: full of drugs to to uh deny his natural urges 104 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 3: and inclinations, which would have dissipated in time. Civilized society 105 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 3: has proven that I just wonder about who a boy 106 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 3: becoming a man is uncorrupted by all those things. 107 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: And I don't know the answer to that. 108 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 3: I don't know that we have we don't have a 109 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 3: we don't have a sample to choose from to draw from. 110 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's unfortunate, isn't. I mean, I think you're you're 111 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 4: you're making it very clear. Your clarity is great. I 112 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 4: like ADHD has become so popular to say that boys 113 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 4: are you know, out of control in classrooms. Well, it's 114 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 4: because we you know, women tend to be biologically much 115 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 4: better behave. They're they're nurturing, they're not aggressive, and they're 116 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 4: not as violent as men either. So boys get out 117 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 4: there and they wrestle, and of course wrestling and fighting 118 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 4: and all those kinds of things are the things to 119 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 4: prepare men to be men in hunter gathered society. Now, 120 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 4: you know, we don't live in a hunter gathered society now, 121 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 4: but these are things that are left over from evolution 122 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 4: in three hundred thousand years of Homo sapiens. And you know, 123 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 4: ten thousand years of civilization isn't going. 124 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: To change that. 125 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 4: We mean hundreds of thousands of years to change behavior 126 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 4: through evolution. So boys, then when we women teachers, women 127 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 4: teachers don't like boys that are aggressive and violent, but well, 128 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 4: certainly not violent, but are aggressive, and they tend then 129 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 4: to suppress or try to suppress that. And I think 130 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 4: it's a shame for boys. I think males in general 131 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 4: are really not treated very well by society these dates, 132 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 4: and I think feminists have a lot to do with that. 133 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: Michael Berry show Mark Defont is our guest. 134 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 3: The peer reviewed paper in Sexuality and Culture is titled 135 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 3: Evolutionary Psychology in the Crisis of Empirical Rigor in Feminist Studies. 136 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 3: This is a bit of an NPR style interview with 137 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 3: a conservative, at least from my perspective as it relates 138 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 3: to me. Bent not your typical talk radio fair, but 139 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 3: interesting nonetheless because it underpins everything we're talking about as 140 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 3: relates to feminism today and what Rush I think accurately 141 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 3: called femineazis and certainly cleverly called femininzis. And we get 142 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 3: to the point where we have to ask the question, 143 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 3: what is at the root of feminism and feminist studies, 144 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 3: and more importantly than the studies is the application in 145 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 3: the real world of what they are studying and teaching. 146 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 3: And that's not only the scholarship, that is, as applied 147 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 3: in therapy sessions, as applied in movies, as applied in 148 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 3: news stories, because I do think there has been a 149 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 3: tectonic shift in the way we look at sexual relations, 150 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 3: by which I mean boys and girls, men and women, 151 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 3: and that what was once referred to as chivalry is 152 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 3: now toxic. Masculinity is what is natural and endemic to 153 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 3: the male in most cases biologically is now being referred 154 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 3: to as some form of criminal, immoral. 155 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 2: Evil, oppressive. 156 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 3: And I think there's a dastardly effect over the law 157 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 3: long term of this happening. And if we go back 158 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 3: to the title of the article, Evolutionary Psychology and the 159 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 3: Crisis of empirical rigor in Feminist studies, our professor Mark 160 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 3: Dafont is saying that there is not empirical rigor, that 161 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 3: they are not basing it on the tenets of science 162 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: that we have respected from the time of Copernicus, Newton. 163 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: Aristotle, you name it. 164 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 3: And so now what we're doing is a touchy feely 165 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 3: quote unquote science and that's a problem, right. 166 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 4: Absolutely, and you're so right to make those points. The 167 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 4: American Psychological Association has accepted this idea that our masculine 168 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 4: behaviors and feminine behaviors are not biological, they're psychological. And 169 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 4: if you can change behavior, then they can make men 170 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 4: behave more feminine, less aggressive, and get rid of masculinity 171 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 4: in general. And that's where it ruffles my feather, so 172 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 4: to speak. Why are we punishing masculine men, Why are 173 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 4: we calling them toxic? It's things that women originally chose 174 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 4: for a hunter gatherer society. They wanted protecting men. They 175 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 4: wanted men that were good hunters. They wanted men that 176 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 4: could go out and risk their lives. It came at 177 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 4: a price. One of the reasons why young men die 178 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 4: so much younger and so more often than women is 179 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 4: because we are aggressive. We live a shorter life on 180 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 4: general by six years if I remember correctly. So, so 181 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 4: you know, this whole masculinity thing can be detrimental to men, 182 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 4: but it also can be very very good attribute. 183 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 3: Not only a very good it's very natural and it's 184 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 3: important that we understand, and I think a lot of women, 185 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 3: especially feminazi women, don't understand. We don't need everyone. I'll 186 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: use a sports analogy. We don't need everyone on the 187 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 3: team to be a quarterback because somebody needs to be 188 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 3: the right guard, and somebody needs to be the field 189 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 3: goal kicker, and somebody needs to be the wide receiver, 190 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 3: and those are very different skill sets, body types, strength levels, 191 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 3: speed levels, and so this idea that you are trying 192 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 3: to basically feminize men, which I see as the tendency, 193 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 3: we see it taken to its disturbing and all too 194 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 3: common conclusion, where they're feminizing men to the point that 195 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 3: men have this fetishistic sense of womanhood about themselves. Dylan 196 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 3: Molvaney would be a great example, which is really just 197 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 3: a twelve year old girl. Grown women don't run around 198 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 3: the way Dylan Molvaney does having their coming out party, 199 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: their debutante ball. This is absurd, It's ridiculous. It's like 200 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 3: some episode front of Frozen. Then every dad has lived 201 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 3: through in the backseat of a bunch of girls. It's 202 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 3: a twelve year old girl. It's silly, that's not it's weird. 203 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 3: But I think that what we're seeing is this desire 204 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 3: to make men be more like women, thereby feminizing them 205 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 3: is being taken to its most disturbing distraint extreme, which 206 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 3: is making them into women itself. That's a trend that 207 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 3: I believe feminism has accelerated. 208 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 4: Oh, yes, that's a I mean, that's almost a non 209 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 4: secuitor in the universities that women are trying to do this. 210 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 2: Yes they are. 211 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 4: They're feminizing the universities. Next time you get on a university, 212 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 4: see how many men are acting masculine on the university campuses, aggressive, 213 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 4: all those things that are looked down on university of campuses. 214 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 4: I'm careful not to judge all people, but certainly a 215 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 4: large percentage of females that I know on campus are 216 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 4: trying to feminize the university and in general, feminized men. 217 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 4: And in fact, the American Psychological Association published a large 218 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 4: report in twenty eighteen basically saying, we want to feminize men. 219 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 4: We want to make sure that the therapists out there 220 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 4: are coming down on behavior, on masculine behavior. That scared 221 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 4: the heck out. I mean, when I heard that, I thought, gosh, 222 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 4: you know, we as scientists have to speak out against 223 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 4: this thing. Men and boys are being punished for simply being. 224 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 3: Masculine, and nothing is more natural than being what you 225 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 3: biologically are. You know, one of the great compelling moral 226 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 3: arguments against racism is that someone should not be judged 227 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 3: to quote Martin Luther King Jr. By the color of 228 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 3: their skin, but rather the content of the character. We 229 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 3: can't control what we were born, and it feels that 230 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 3: feminism has done exactly that to boys. And anyone who 231 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 3: does not understand that if you have seen how I've 232 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 3: raised two little boys into grown men, and little boys 233 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 3: are very different than little girls in consistent ways. And 234 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 3: I'll tell you it's the same thing with breeds. I've 235 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 3: had chuawas, I've had German shepherds, and they are very 236 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 3: consistent with their breed. I was a little boy, my 237 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 3: brothers were little boys. I watched how little boys behaved, 238 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 3: and I watched how girls behave differently, and it wasn't 239 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 3: because we were conditioned or socialized to those behaviors. It's 240 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 3: because that's what came naturally to us. Well, I'm gonna 241 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 3: have to hold you right there. My clock management is 242 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 3: not as good as I would like it to be. 243 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 3: But I don't want you to have to stop in 244 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 3: the middle of a discussion. We will continue our conversation 245 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 3: with Professor Mark Defunt regarding the lack or he says 246 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 3: a crisis of empirical rigor and feminist studies by which 247 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: he means they're just making stuff up. It's not scientific anymore, 248 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 3: and it does have real effects. It has real effects 249 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 3: on your children, the real effects on you, on whether 250 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 3: boys go into girls' bathrooms, whether boys play sports with 251 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 3: on the same field as a girl, even when they 252 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 3: can injure them. 253 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 2: And so much more. 254 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 3: To be honest with you, Michael Berry. Professor Martin DuPont 255 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: is our guest. He's a professor at the University of 256 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 3: South Florida. He wrote a piece recently, a paper entitled 257 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 3: Evolutionary Psychology and the Crisis of Empirical rigor in Feminist study. 258 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 3: In other words, how did we get to the point 259 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 3: that these people in the name of feminism are defying 260 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 3: biology beating up on boys. I would argue feminizing boys 261 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 3: and not using any science to get there. Well, that's 262 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 3: what he's trying to lay out and discuss. It happens 263 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 3: to be important. You can see that this social issue 264 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 3: is one of the issues of our day in the 265 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 3: way that in the past we would have dealt with others. 266 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 3: And they mark the zeit. Guys, this is what we're 267 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 3: talking about all day, every day. Professor Mark Dfant, you 268 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 3: note that you drew on research in evolutionary psychology, neuroscience, 269 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 3: and behavioral biology examining topics such as the gender pay gap. 270 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 2: Let's talk about. 271 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 4: That, Okay, if I could just follow up real quickly, 272 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 4: this is the things you're saying is it's precisely why 273 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 4: feminists are so against evolutionary psychology, because if it's not 274 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 4: evolutionary psychology and it's due to culture, then they can 275 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 4: change men. They can also say that men and women 276 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 4: are equal, so you can make movies where you see 277 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 4: a woman beating up to ten guys. It's absolutely gotten insane. 278 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 4: And many studies show, as you mentioned, the differences between 279 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,479 Speaker 4: boys and girls right from the start, boys and girls 280 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 4: are different, and study after study shows that many done 281 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 4: by women. Okay, let's get into the pay gap, because 282 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 4: I think you know that's going to open up some 283 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 4: interesting discussion. I think the first thing I should say 284 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 4: is when I started to study the pay gap, I 285 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 4: went to economics research, much of it being done by women, 286 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 4: good examples of Claudia Golden at Harvard University, and they 287 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 4: were showing I mean, it's almost shocking how different the 288 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 4: economic research is from what feminists are saying. The economic 289 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 4: research is telling us that the pay gap is due 290 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 4: to women's choice. Basically, women tend to be risk adverse. 291 00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 4: They tend to be looking for jobs that give them 292 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 4: freedom to raise children. They also tend to like to 293 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 4: take off time in their careers to raise children. So 294 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 4: we have a pay gap developing, not because a bunch 295 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 4: of men out there are pressing women through discrimination, but 296 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 4: primarily according to these economists, that they are basically women 297 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 4: that is, are choosing to work in fields caregiving fields 298 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 4: like education, like social work like nursing, and other medical care. 299 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 4: Whereas men tend to like risk. They go out and 300 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 4: get into these high risk, high reward performance they work 301 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 4: fifty sixty hours a week, and oftentimes women are raising 302 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 4: the children that help them do well in their jobs. 303 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 4: So it's a nice synergy between men and women there 304 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 4: if it works correctly women And I don't want to 305 00:19:58,200 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 4: say all women in this way. I want to say 306 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 4: all men are this way. But I'm just saying what 307 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 4: the biology is telling us and what the economists are 308 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 4: telling us and the gender payback gap. The best scenario 309 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 4: I can give you here to summarize is that the 310 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 4: gender pay gap is not due to discrimination. It may 311 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 4: have been partly due to discrimination decades ago, but certainly 312 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 4: today it is not, and it is due to female choice. 313 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 3: Once again, Yes, and we can when we consider the 314 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 3: various roles that people play. You know, dangerous jobs often 315 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 3: have higher pay attendant, and women choose not to engage 316 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 3: in dangerous jobs, for instance, the patriarchy. You said, drawing 317 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 3: on research in these various forms of biology, I examined 318 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,719 Speaker 3: topics such as the patriarchy and rape theory through an 319 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 3: evidence based lens. Talk about what rape theory is and 320 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 3: what you came to learn about. 321 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 4: This, Well, well, I want to I want to be 322 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 4: careful here because it's a sensitive subject, but I do 323 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 4: I got into rape theory because there's this attitude in 324 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 4: feminist studies that rape is and I still can hardly 325 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 4: believe that that feminists believe this at one time and 326 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 4: still do to some extent. When they're saying that rape 327 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 4: is basically men colluding to oppress women with fear about 328 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 4: about rape, I don't think anything could could be further 329 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 4: from the truth. Uh. In fact, I've got a well 330 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 4: I can read it later, but one of the top 331 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 4: feminists in this field claimed that men use rape to 332 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 4: subjugate women and when you start looking at who rapes 333 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 4: and why they rape, it turns out to be a 334 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 4: whole different story from And you can see why I'm 335 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 4: worried about the rigor and feminist studies when they seem 336 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 4: to be in this echo chamber where they get a 337 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 4: good idea, what they think is a good idea, and 338 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 4: then everybody just expounds on that and nobody goes into 339 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 4: the lab to test what they're saying. And that's where 340 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 4: I have the real problem. Let's go back to rape, though. Rape. 341 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 4: Rape has some interesting characteristics. For one thing, men rape 342 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,479 Speaker 4: women not in their eighties or sixties or fifties. They 343 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 4: rape women in the peak of their fertility, in their 344 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 4: late teens and twenties. And so that should tell us 345 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 4: right there that rape has little to do with oppression. 346 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 4: If men were trying to oppress women through fear, seems 347 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 4: like we would rape all kinds of women, not just 348 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 4: women that are attractive and at a very fertile age. Now, 349 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 4: most evolutionary psychologists believe that it's not an evolutionary adaption. 350 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 4: It's a byproduct of our evolution in a hunter gathered society. 351 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 4: So my disagreement is not that it's not evolution. My 352 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 4: disagreement is that they're saying that it's a bunch of 353 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 4: men trying to oppress women, and the data just simply 354 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 4: isn't telling us that at all. 355 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 3: Professor Martin Defint, let me ask you. I have found, 356 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 3: at least anecdotally, that a number of feminists, particularly feminist academics, 357 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 3: are lesbian, and I suspect that informs some of their 358 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 3: opinions toward men, particularly because the path to a full 359 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 3: blown lesbian often starts as not realizing their lesbian young 360 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 3: in life and maybe having unpleasant experiences due to that, 361 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 3: and later I'm not saying they become lesbians because men 362 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 3: are assets to them. I'm saying they were lesbian or 363 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 3: had tendencies, and they did not have a functional relationship 364 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 3: with a male, and they had a bad experience, and 365 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 3: out of that bad experience they developed they developed, perhaps 366 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 3: opinions of men that are not entirely healthy, and so 367 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 3: that informs, if not fully motivates their writing, which becomes 368 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 3: almost this the opposite of misogyny, this man hating. And 369 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: I do see that, and it is clear to me 370 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 3: and that is not scientific in any you talk about 371 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 3: what was our word, the Crisis of empirical rigor in 372 00:24:54,640 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 3: feminist studies. I think they lack the empirical rigor of 373 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 3: of objectivity. Professor Mark Defant is our guest. Will continue 374 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 3: our conversation and ask him for an answer to. 375 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 2: That coming up. 376 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: Okay. 377 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 2: Professor Martin D. Defont of the University of South Florida 378 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 2: is our guest. 379 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 3: He's written a piece called Evolutionary Psychology and the Crisis 380 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 3: of Empirical Rigor in Feminist Studies. In other words, how 381 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 3: did we end up to the point that feminists on campuses, 382 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 3: for instance, and in writing and scholarship and in speeches, 383 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 3: this feminism wildfire that has that has spread across the country. 384 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 4: Uh. 385 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 3: He says it lacks the traditional underpinnings of science, the 386 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 3: empirical rigor, asking tough questions, uh, debating things, studying things, 387 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 3: studying data and analysis. You can't have your own facts. 388 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 3: You can have your own opinions, not your own facts. 389 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 3: And I have asked the question, to what extent are 390 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 3: lesbian academics who are angry at men leading this charge? 391 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 4: Well, I'm already catching a lot of the wrath from 392 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 4: my publication, so I want to be careful here not 393 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 4: to generalize it would be. I haven't read any articles 394 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 4: on how many women are lesbians in feminist studies, although 395 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 4: like you, I have noticed that there are some, if 396 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 4: not the majority, and I think that this does skew 397 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 4: in your in your observation, it would tend to skew 398 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 4: in terms of working I think. I think the woman's movement, 399 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 4: which I consider very different than the feminist movement, the 400 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 4: women's movement has had a very positive effect I think 401 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 4: on women. Uh it's you know, if they want to 402 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 4: leave the house and work, you know, that's great. But 403 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 4: where I think feminists may have skewed it is they 404 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 4: seem to be interested only in working women and not 405 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 4: women who choose to stay home and raise children. And 406 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 4: I oppose that kind of view. I think we should 407 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 4: be open to both kinds of behaviors. And it may 408 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 4: be and I don't know this for certain, but it 409 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 4: may be due to the fact that there are many 410 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 4: lesbians who do not have children that populate women's studies programs. 411 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 4: It's something I don't have any data on, but it 412 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 4: wouldn't surprise me. Does that make sense? 413 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: It does, and delicately answered Professor Martin Defont, is our guest, 414 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,360 Speaker 3: let me go back into some of the things that 415 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 3: you described in your piece. You said I examined topics 416 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 3: such as the gender paid gap, patriarchy, and rape theory. 417 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 2: Guy gloss over patriarchy. 418 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,479 Speaker 3: First of all, I'm not sure that patriarchy in and 419 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 3: of itself is necessarily a bad thing. Throughout history, there 420 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 3: is typically a hierarchical relationship to the family unit, the community, 421 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 3: the nation, far and beyond modern America that has typically 422 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 3: been the strongest in one way or another, particularly throughout 423 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 3: most of history. Why wouldn't it be the case, as 424 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 3: you noted, empirical rigor requires you look at the biological differences. 425 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 3: Why wouldn't the stronger of the species be the head 426 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 3: of the household. 427 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 4: Well, you're very clever to see that. I think, yes, 428 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 4: it's a subtle point. But it's the point that I 429 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 4: make in this paper and several other papers that I've written, 430 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 4: and that is that there's a difference between what I 431 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 4: call evolutionary patriarchy and the feminist patriarchy. I think we 432 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 4: do have a patriarchy if you're going to define it 433 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 4: as a society that's run by men, but it's a 434 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 4: patriarchy that's due to choice by women. In other words, 435 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 4: women are choosing men that are aggressive, men that take 436 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 4: risks throughout the history of evolution. So we would expect 437 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 4: men to be in leadership roles if that were the way, 438 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 4: or that was the way that women were choosing. And 439 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 4: so you can see, I hope you can see how 440 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 4: the kind of patriarchy we have today is the result 441 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 4: of women's choice and not due to a bunch of 442 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 4: men getting together and saying we want to oppress women. 443 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 4: I have an interesting quick story if I might talk 444 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 4: to you about a wonderful study that was done in 445 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 4: the nineteen nineties. It involves the Kublitz in Israel. It 446 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 4: turns out that the Kublitzes were formed by Eastern European 447 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 4: basically commune certainly socialists, who moved from Eastern Europe to 448 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 4: Israel where they had the freedom to develop the society 449 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 4: they wanted to develop, which was they believed men and 450 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 4: women should be treated exactly the same, and they set 451 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 4: up the kabouts to be basically a communist system where 452 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 4: everyone was treated equally. And some very interesting things happened 453 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 4: in the early goings on of the kibbutz. Women worked 454 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 4: in the fields right along with the men the hard labor. 455 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 4: It was mainly a farming community and men and women 456 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 4: took care of the children. In fact, the children were 457 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 4: raised without parents. Basically they were given over to the commune, 458 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 4: and the commune raised the children, both men and women. 459 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 4: And then as it developed through the nineteen hundreds, it 460 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 4: evolved and we find that women didn't like so much 461 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 4: working away from children in the fields. They didn't like 462 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 4: the labor, and they didn't like being away from their children. 463 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 4: So it evolved in the sense of, you know, changing 464 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 4: over time that the women ended up taking care of 465 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 4: the children more and the men were out in the 466 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 4: fields doing most of the hard labor. And it's kind 467 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 4: of funny because one of the things that set it 468 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 4: off was they believed that the children should do everything together, 469 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 4: and they treated the boys and girls the same way. 470 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 4: But as the girls got older and past puberty they 471 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 4: were supposed to take showers and bathe with the boys. 472 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 4: They started raising hell about that, and so the commune 473 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 4: decided it might be a good idea if we didn't 474 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 4: have them bathing together. Because women were embarrassed dressing and 475 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 4: undressing in front of others, were in front of boys, 476 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 4: so it evolved that way also, and finally, women also 477 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 4: gave up their rights to control the kaboots and leadership roles. 478 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 4: Women wanted to raise the children, and they let the 479 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 4: men take leadership leadership roles. And this all happen even 480 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 4: though men and women wanted equality. So I'm not sure 481 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 4: that if we give one hundred percent equality, which I 482 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 4: think you know we're getting close to today, that it's going 483 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 4: to make much difference in society. I think we're finding 484 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 4: that women are predisposed towards enjoying raising children, and men 485 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 4: are predisposed towards working hard and competitively. 486 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 3: I'm also not certain that I guess it depends on 487 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 3: what we define as equality or in what space. My 488 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 3: wife was a very successful professional before retiring, and she 489 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 3: had every opportunity that every man did. 490 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 2: I would consider that equality. 491 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 3: I don't know that you're ever going to achieve the 492 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 3: equality for men with women that men are going to 493 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 3: birth a child out of their womb. 494 00:32:58,800 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 2: And I think this. 495 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 3: Desperate desire by feminists to suggest that men can get 496 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 3: pregnant and all this nonsense, and then the playing with 497 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 3: words to deprive them of their meaning. Talk about a 498 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 3: crisis of empirical rigor. Professor. I find this to be 499 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 3: a very brave subject for you to have tackled, and 500 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 3: in an academic setting there is an absence of bravery. 501 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 3: I admire you for that. I commend you for that. 502 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 3: Thank you, Professor Mark Defont, if you want to look 503 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 3: him up. D E F A n T. Keep up 504 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 3: the good work, sir, I'm out of time. Alas all right. 505 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 4: I appreciate you having me on. Thank you.