Speaker 1: A lot of our struggles interpersonally and suffering relationally in
Speaker 1: life is due to reacting to things that aren't actually there.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 1: think ring true, and yet for many of us, our
Speaker 1: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. M Hey,
Speaker 1: I've got some really exciting news. You can now listen
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Speaker 1: wondering and use the promo code wondering. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: Our guest on this episode is Orange J. Sofer, who
Speaker 1: leads retreats and workshops on mindful communication and meditation at
Speaker 1: retreat centers and educational settings around the United States. Or
Speaker 1: And holds a degree in comparative religion from Columbia University
Speaker 1: and is the founder of next Step Dharma and Mindful Healthcare. Today,
Speaker 1: Eric and Oran discuss his book Say What You Mean,
Speaker 1: a Mindful Approach to non Violent Communication. Hi, Or, and
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Thanks so much. I'm happy to
Speaker 1: have you back on you and I first talked in
Speaker 1: a joint interview we did with you and Dan Harris. Um.
Speaker 1: It's been quite some time ago, so we've got you
Speaker 1: back to discuss your new book, which is called Say
Speaker 1: What You Mean, A Mindful Approach to Non Violent Communication,
Speaker 1: And I'm looking forward to getting into that. I know
Speaker 1: lots of listeners. Well, I guess really everybody needs help
Speaker 1: in communicating better, but I know this is an area
Speaker 1: of interest for our listeners, so we'll head there in
Speaker 1: a second. But let's start like we always do, with
Speaker 1: the parable. There is a grandfather who's talking with his
Speaker 1: granddaughter and he says, in life, there are two wolves
Speaker 1: inside of us that are always at battle. What is
Speaker 1: a good wolf, which represents things like kindness, bravery, love,
Speaker 1: and there's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 1: and hatred and fear. And the grand utter stops and
Speaker 1: thinks about it for a second and looks up at
Speaker 1: her grandfather and she says, well, grandfather, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do. Yeah, thanks so much, Eric, It's Actually
Speaker 1: it's an old Cherokee legend that I really loved. We
Speaker 1: were talking earlier. I'm teaching a meditation retreat right now,
Speaker 1: and I'm giving a talk tomorrow, and that very parable
Speaker 1: is going to be one of the organizing themes for
Speaker 1: the talk. So it's it's very near and dear to
Speaker 1: my heart. You know, there are a couple of things
Speaker 1: that it means to me and how it applies in
Speaker 1: my life. It's really good news because it means that
Speaker 1: we're not stuck. Our minds can learn, and it depends
Speaker 1: on the choices that we make from moment to moment um.
Speaker 1: And you know, modern neuroscience is born this out that
Speaker 1: the property of neuroplasticity means that the function and the
Speaker 1: shape of our brains can actually change through repeated experience.
Speaker 1: So the more you do something, the better you get
Speaker 1: at it. And that's that's the feeding the wolf um.
Speaker 1: So I think it's really good news for us. The
Speaker 1: the other thing about it for me, it's like if
Speaker 1: I fall short of my expectations in some way. You know,
Speaker 1: I was sitting in a meeting the other day and
Speaker 1: I had a lot on my plate that day, so
Speaker 1: I was wanting the meeting to go as quickly as possible,
Speaker 1: and so I was a little bit more tense than
Speaker 1: I than I usually am or like to be, And
Speaker 1: at the end of the meeting, I kind of regretted,
Speaker 1: you know, that I was not more relaxed and patient
Speaker 1: in the flow of the meeting and instead of beating
Speaker 1: myself up, like, instead of getting down on myself or
Speaker 1: judging myself, this perspective of the two wolves helps me
Speaker 1: to recognize, oh, okay, well, for the last hour or two,
Speaker 1: I was feeding the wolf that is not helpful in
Speaker 1: my life. So now I see that and I can
Speaker 1: do it differently, So it takes it out of the personal.
Speaker 1: It's not like something about me personally. It's just a
Speaker 1: matter of the choices that I make, and that that
Speaker 1: gives me a lot of hope for not only myself,
Speaker 1: but for us as a species and being able to
Speaker 1: do things differently. Yeah, I really like that thinking of
Speaker 1: it as good news. And the other piece that I
Speaker 1: really like about the parable that I reflect on is
Speaker 1: kind of what you said that sort of insinuates that
Speaker 1: we all have this battle, and like you said, that
Speaker 1: makes it a little bit less personal to me, that
Speaker 1: it's like you know, regardless of who we are and
Speaker 1: where we are in life, that that we have our
Speaker 1: moments where things are more challenging than others. And that's
Speaker 1: just the way life is. Yeah, and it's one of
Speaker 1: the it's one of the gifts and the beauties of
Speaker 1: not only contemplative practice, but all of the wonderful things
Speaker 1: that we are learning today, like positive psychology and growth mindset,
Speaker 1: which is that we have these potentials, right, we have
Speaker 1: the potential to um cause harm and be petty and
Speaker 1: small and jealous and self centered in life, and we
Speaker 1: have the potential to learn and grow and to actually
Speaker 1: aspire to something really beautiful and realize our potential as
Speaker 1: human beings, which is so vast. And so this this
Speaker 1: parable kind of points us in that direction. Indeed it does.
Speaker 1: So let's move into your book, which, as I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: is called Say what you Mean? A Mindful Approach to
Speaker 1: Non Violent Communication. And I wanted to start by having
Speaker 1: you lay out the three steps to create effective conversation. Yeah. Sure,
Speaker 1: So maybe let me just frame it first, which is
Speaker 1: that we all have experiences in life where we have
Speaker 1: conversations that go awry, where it goes south and we
Speaker 1: end up making a big mess that hopefully we can
Speaker 1: clean up later, and sometimes we can't. And then we
Speaker 1: have these other experiences in life where are there's some
Speaker 1: conflict or difference or disagreements or issue that we're working with,
Speaker 1: whether it's in our family or at work, and for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, we're able to actually see it through. Right.
Speaker 1: We work together, we listen to each other, we get
Speaker 1: past any disagreements or tensions, and we come out the
Speaker 1: other side often stronger in the relationship. Not only that,
Speaker 1: we often we learn about each other um and when
Speaker 1: we can work things out, the results are often better
Speaker 1: than had we just been working on our own. So
Speaker 1: the question is what makes the difference, right, like why
Speaker 1: is it In some conversations it goes one way and
Speaker 1: in other conversations it goes another. So what a lot
Speaker 1: of my work is about is helping people to understand
Speaker 1: the conditions that create those conversations that are more meaningful
Speaker 1: and effective, so that we can start to just to
Speaker 1: go back to the parable against we can start to
Speaker 1: feed that wolf, so we can start to um reinforce
Speaker 1: those conditions in ourselves so that we're more likely to
Speaker 1: have the kinds of conversations and relationships that we want
Speaker 1: in our life. So what are the three steps? So
Speaker 1: I summarize the whole process of training around this in
Speaker 1: three core steps. The first is to lead with presence,
Speaker 1: The second is to come from curiosity and care that's
Speaker 1: about our intention, and then the third is to focus
Speaker 1: on what matters, which is about what we're paying attention to,
Speaker 1: how we're actually navigating the conversation in terms of what
Speaker 1: we say and how we listen. And each of these
Speaker 1: is its own kind of deep training. So maybe we
Speaker 1: can get into that a little bit and explore them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: why don't we just start with lead with presence, maybe
Speaker 1: lead us into some of what is in that training.
Speaker 1: This is one of those blazing insights to the obvious
Speaker 1: that as a colleague of mine says that we need
Speaker 1: to be here before we can actually have a meaningful conversation.
Speaker 1: So communication is about understanding one another, whether we're trying
Speaker 1: to build a bridge or you know, wanting to get
Speaker 1: closer in some way as friends or or family members.
Speaker 1: The currency of communication is meaning is understanding, and if
Speaker 1: you want to understand something, you need to actually be present.
Speaker 1: So leading with presence means that before anything else, before
Speaker 1: what we say, our agenda, how we're feeling, what we
Speaker 1: want from the other person. Before any of that we
Speaker 1: just show up. Can we actually just be aresn't with
Speaker 1: one another? That's the foundation. If we can't do that,
Speaker 1: then we're on automatic. We're just running on habit, and
Speaker 1: chances are those habits aren't going to be serving us
Speaker 1: as well as if we were really present and had
Speaker 1: access to our wisdom, the skills that we've learned, and
Speaker 1: our best intentions. So the challenge here is that, you know,
Speaker 1: we live in a society that's incredibly fast paced, that's disembodied,
Speaker 1: where you know, so much of our time is focused
Speaker 1: on screens, the intellect, the future UM. And because of
Speaker 1: the pace of our lives and the presence of technology, UM,
Speaker 1: most people are living with a kind of fragmented attention
Speaker 1: where it's very difficult to focus and settle the mind
Speaker 1: on any one thing. So leading with presents actually takes
Speaker 1: training to be able to learn how to stay really
Speaker 1: grounded and clear and embodied with another human being in
Speaker 1: a conversation. And so an obvious training for being more
Speaker 1: presence would be mindfulness. What other types of trainings or
Speaker 1: what other types of tools help us to be more present.
Speaker 1: You've got principles that you scatter throughout the book, and
Speaker 1: one of them is that presents lays the ground for connections.
Speaker 1: So what are some tools for us to stay more present.
Speaker 1: Let me speak to that principle first, and then i'll
Speaker 1: and then I'll offer a few really practical tips for
Speaker 1: for bringing this into our lives. We can feel it
Speaker 1: when someone's really present or not right if if we
Speaker 1: can be talking to someone, they can be looking at
Speaker 1: us right in the eyes, and we can tell if
Speaker 1: their mind is somewhere else, if they're not really listening,
Speaker 1: and their reverse if someone's really giving us their full attention,
Speaker 1: if they're actually present, it says something powerful, right, It
Speaker 1: says like you're important to me. I'm actually willing to
Speaker 1: give you my time right now. And so that's what
Speaker 1: lays the ground for connection. It's a it's one of
Speaker 1: the most important conditions for having an effective conversation. A
Speaker 1: few ways to do this In terms of mindfulness, we
Speaker 1: can bring some awareness, some attention into our body. Because
Speaker 1: the body is always in the present moment, the mind
Speaker 1: can go into the past and the future. It can
Speaker 1: you know, travel a thousand miles in a split second.
Speaker 1: But when you're aware of a sensation in the body
Speaker 1: for that moment, you're present, because sensations don't exist in
Speaker 1: the past or the future. So one way to lead
Speaker 1: with presence is in the in a conversation, if you
Speaker 1: can just bring a little bit of attention into your body,
Speaker 1: they just feel the weight of your body, or your hands,
Speaker 1: or the contact between your bottom and the chair if
Speaker 1: you're sitting, or your feet on the floor, anything like
Speaker 1: that will start to help us to be more present
Speaker 1: in a conversation. So that's that's one that's one way
Speaker 1: to explore it. I was just going to ask about
Speaker 1: that because I read that in the book and I
Speaker 1: thought a little bit about it, and it occurs to
Speaker 1: me that being present to conversation is something that I
Speaker 1: wrestle with often because I him and a lot of conversations,
Speaker 1: both for interviews with coaching clients, lots of different things,
Speaker 1: and sometimes I find if I try and notice myself
Speaker 1: being more present, I'm suddenly having trouble paying attention to
Speaker 1: what is being said to me. Yeah, it's a very
Speaker 1: common thing that happens at first, and it feels like
Speaker 1: the our attention starts flipping back and forth from the
Speaker 1: other person to ourselves. So there's a difference between being
Speaker 1: present and be becoming self conscious, right, getting kind of
Speaker 1: caught up or wrapped up in our own thoughts or experience.
Speaker 1: And what we're going for here is a very natural
Speaker 1: state of awareness where we're present, but we're also oriented
Speaker 1: to our environment. So this is the kind of feeling
Speaker 1: you have when say you're out for a walk and
Speaker 1: maybe it's just rained, and then it's and then it's cleared,
Speaker 1: and the sun's come out, and it's really the air
Speaker 1: is fresh and clear, and you know, maybe you're walking
Speaker 1: outside in a natural setting and everything feels vibrant in
Speaker 1: a lot five and we can feel our body and
Speaker 1: all of our senses are alert, and we're also really
Speaker 1: connected to the environment around us. We're taking everything in,
Speaker 1: and the sense of being present and connected to myself
Speaker 1: rather than blocking out my surroundings actually puts me more
Speaker 1: deeply in touch with the world around me. That's the
Speaker 1: kind of presence we're going for. And as I said,
Speaker 1: it's a very natural state for human beings. Our nervous
Speaker 1: systems are designed to be balanced and oriented to our environment.
Speaker 1: But as I was saying before, the pace and structure
Speaker 1: of modern civilization takes us out of that, so we
Speaker 1: need to recover that. We need to learn how to
Speaker 1: return to it more and more, and over time that
Speaker 1: capacity grows and it becomes much more familiar to be
Speaker 1: able to kind of rest in a state of feeling
Speaker 1: connected to yourself but also in touch with and open
Speaker 1: to what's happening with someone else or around us. So
Speaker 1: there are two more really accessible to rules that I
Speaker 1: want to offer to everyone for leading with presents. One
Speaker 1: of these is just pausing, so it doesn't need to
Speaker 1: be a long pause, just like I took there just
Speaker 1: half a breath. And what that does is it gives
Speaker 1: us a moment to gather our attention, to let our
Speaker 1: thoughts collect, to center ourselves. So it can be very
Speaker 1: powerful to just pause for a moment. And if it's
Speaker 1: a heated conversation where you don't want to seed ground
Speaker 1: to the other person, you can insert a pause by
Speaker 1: actually saying something like I think I need a moment
Speaker 1: to gather my thoughts, or I want to take that
Speaker 1: in for a sec hang on, or just give me
Speaker 1: a second I want to think about that, and it
Speaker 1: signals to the other person socially, I'm taking in what
Speaker 1: you said, and I really want to respond in a
Speaker 1: way that's going to be helpful and careful. So pausing
Speaker 1: is one another really powerful way to lead with presents
Speaker 1: is to begin to explore the pace of our speech.
Speaker 1: So there's so much tied up in this, I'll just
Speaker 1: touch on a few things. But number one, we speak
Speaker 1: with our breath, and our breath is tied to our
Speaker 1: nervous system. So any modulation in the pace of our
Speaker 1: speech automatically starts to affect our nervous system. So if
Speaker 1: we're getting caught up or overactivated or losing our cool
Speaker 1: in a conversation, if we dial the pace of our
Speaker 1: speech back a little bit, that can help us to
Speaker 1: start to self regulate so that we don't lose our cool.
Speaker 1: The other thing that does is, obviously, without making it
Speaker 1: over exaggerated, has to be natural. But when we take
Speaker 1: our time with our words, it communicates a sense of
Speaker 1: weight and a certain kind of power in what we're saying.
Speaker 1: That the implicit messages I'm confident that what I have
Speaker 1: to say is worthwhile, and so I'm going to take
Speaker 1: my time and sharing it because I think it's going
Speaker 1: to be valuable or contribution to you in some way. So, um,
Speaker 1: playing with the pace of our speech help us to
Speaker 1: lead with presents and settle. It can also really go
Speaker 1: a long way to inviting the listener's attention to be
Speaker 1: more focused and available for us. I think that my
Speaker 1: editor Chris would love to hear me take more pauses
Speaker 1: and speak more slowly instead of stammering over sentences as
Speaker 1: I try and think of the next of the next
Speaker 1: thing to say. But one of the things that you
Speaker 1: point out is you go through all this is you
Speaker 1: you have a lot of practices in the book, and
Speaker 1: you often recommend that people take these out for a spin,
Speaker 1: either in low stakes conversations or specifically if they have
Speaker 1: somebody they can be working with on this, to actually
Speaker 1: practice with someone who sort of knows they're practicing in
Speaker 1: a sense, instead of trying to bring these things into
Speaker 1: high stakes conversations and bring these skills that we don't
Speaker 1: really have yet to the table. Yeah, it's a really
Speaker 1: important principle. I call it sometimes I call it the
Speaker 1: five pound way principle or the shallow end of the
Speaker 1: pool principle. And the idea here is, you know, like
Speaker 1: if you're training. You don't start with a hundred pound weight.
Speaker 1: If you're learning to swim, you don't. You don't jump
Speaker 1: in the ocean. You start in the shallow end of
Speaker 1: the pool. You build capacity where it's easy. And so
Speaker 1: the hard part is that we're all communicating all the
Speaker 1: time and we need these skills. Like yesterday, it's like
Speaker 1: difficult conversations. Don't schedule themselves, like I think I'll wait
Speaker 1: till Friday to have you know, to show up in
Speaker 1: your face that there's this big blow out at work.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh my god, here I am. I'm stuck.
Speaker 1: I'm going to use whatever I can. So we do
Speaker 1: the best we can. And at the same time, our
Speaker 1: communication patterns are learned early in life, so they get set,
Speaker 1: and they get set in their mind, and they get
Speaker 1: set in their nervous system. So what that means is
Speaker 1: is kind of a double edged sword. On the one hand,
Speaker 1: it's going to take time to shift them because we're
Speaker 1: each carrying, you know, at least a few decades, a
Speaker 1: couple a few decades of condition in our communication um
Speaker 1: and yet precisely because they are formed, shaped and learned,
Speaker 1: if we're diligent and we actually give ourselves a chance
Speaker 1: and take the time we can relearn reshape them. So
Speaker 1: the best way to do that is by having very
Speaker 1: concerted periods of practice actually training ourselves to listen and
Speaker 1: speak and be present in different ways. And so the
Speaker 1: easiest way to do that is where you're not under
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure, where you can actually make mistakes
Speaker 1: and learn from them, whether it's with a good friend
Speaker 1: or just kind of doing it on the sly when
Speaker 1: you're just hanging out with people and it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: as much. You've got another principle in this section of
Speaker 1: the book that I think is really useful for what
Speaker 1: we're talking about and speaks to a broader idea, which
Speaker 1: is the more where we are, the more choice we
Speaker 1: have in terms of leading with presents. Right, we're talking
Speaker 1: about like well why should I do that? And we
Speaker 1: we've hit on a few of these points, so like, well,
Speaker 1: you've got to be here first if you want to
Speaker 1: understand something. It sends a message to the other person
Speaker 1: that you're actually actually are interested enough to listen to them,
Speaker 1: which is really important for a conversation. Um, and this,
Speaker 1: this last principle you mentioned is kind of the crux,
Speaker 1: which is that When we are present, we have a
Speaker 1: lot more choice, and that that means we have access
Speaker 1: to our power. If we are not present, like our
Speaker 1: friend Dan Harris says, you know, we're getting yanked around
Speaker 1: by our thoughts and our impulses in our habits. So
Speaker 1: the more aware we are, if we can actually bring
Speaker 1: this quality of presence into our conversations and relationships, we
Speaker 1: can steer, we can navigate, we can make choices moment
Speaker 1: to moment about how do I want to respond? You know,
Speaker 1: just think about how much grief we could have each
Speaker 1: saved ourselves had we been able to pause and hold
Speaker 1: our tongue for just two or three seconds, or had
Speaker 1: we been able to wait instead of hitting send on
Speaker 1: that email. Right, So that's the choice factor is huge
Speaker 1: in terms of the quality of our relationships and the
Speaker 1: effectiveness we have in our lives exactly. So let's move
Speaker 1: into the second step, which is to come from curiosity
Speaker 1: and care. This is huge. This is where where we
Speaker 1: really start to get into some of the mystery of communication,
Speaker 1: because it is really mysterious this capacity that we have
Speaker 1: as human beings to send and receive messages and basically
Speaker 1: share our internal worlds with one another. So so much
Speaker 1: of communication is actually not in the words that we say.
Speaker 1: And there have been a number of different studies done
Speaker 1: by linguists and psychologists, and depending on the context, the
Speaker 1: percentages vary, but a huge amount of the message that
Speaker 1: we send and receive in communication is nonverbal. It's not
Speaker 1: the words, it's the tone of voice, the body language,
Speaker 1: the facial expressions. So what this means is that you
Speaker 1: can be using the most kind of clear and precise
Speaker 1: we could even say like skillful or correct communication phrases
Speaker 1: and sentences, but if you're coming from the wrong place inside,
Speaker 1: like if you're really just trying to pull one on,
Speaker 1: pull one over on this person, or manipulate the situation
Speaker 1: and or blame someone, and you polish it all up
Speaker 1: with nice words, they're still going to feel that you
Speaker 1: know this, it's still going to come across. So the
Speaker 1: thing that's shaping our nonverbal communication primarily is our intention
Speaker 1: where we're coming from inside. So this is this is
Speaker 1: the key to skillful communication, or one of the main keys,
Speaker 1: which is that it's not about what we say, it's
Speaker 1: about where we're coming from. And then the quality of
Speaker 1: understanding that we're able to create. So two of the
Speaker 1: most powerful intentions that we can have in a conversation
Speaker 1: are number one, the intention to understand, just the very
Speaker 1: simple basic willingness to have an open mind and listen
Speaker 1: in the similar way to being present, That transforms the
Speaker 1: whole atmosphere of a conversation. The second quality is this
Speaker 1: quality of care or kindness. You know, when things are
Speaker 1: when things are tense, um, when we're when we're at
Speaker 1: each other's throats, or we've we've hurt one another in
Speaker 1: some way, or we're frustrated or irritated. You know, just
Speaker 1: a few words of kindness or just a gesture of
Speaker 1: warmth can go such a long way to shifting the
Speaker 1: whole tone of a conversation and inviting someone back in.
Speaker 1: I keep coming back to the wolf analogy, like inviting
Speaker 1: someone back in to that good wolf, to that that
Speaker 1: sense of like, hey, you know, like we don't have
Speaker 1: to do it this way. We have a potential as
Speaker 1: human beings to relate in a different way. That piece
Speaker 1: right there about bringing back some element of carrot makes
Speaker 1: me think of um a phrase from another communication book
Speaker 1: that I love. It's called Crucial Conversations, but it talks
Speaker 1: about the idea that without a sense of safety, no
Speaker 1: real useful conversation can occur. And and sometimes all that's
Speaker 1: needed for safety is just a reminder like I care
Speaker 1: right or I'm listening either of those right, Like I
Speaker 1: want to understand where you're coming from. And and you know,
Speaker 1: these two first principles, these two first steps of lead
Speaker 1: with presence and come from curiosity and care very much
Speaker 1: are about creating those conditions of safety were present. We're
Speaker 1: here with one another, we're actually willing to listen. And
Speaker 1: this quality of care I want to I want to
Speaker 1: be really clear about it, because it's easy to listen
Speaker 1: to that and go like, well, what if I don't
Speaker 1: care about this person? You know, like I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't particularly like everyone in my life. I have my preferences.
Speaker 1: You know. That's okay. It doesn't mean we have to
Speaker 1: like everyone. What it means is that, um, we are
Speaker 1: connected to the quality of basic human warmth in our
Speaker 1: own heart. I don't have to like someone to treat
Speaker 1: them with kindness. It's actually about taking care of my
Speaker 1: own heart and mind and not letting my consciousness move
Speaker 1: into hatred and jealousy or resentment, because first and foremost
Speaker 1: that's going to mess up my own mind, my own day.
Speaker 1: So if I can stay connected to what I care about,
Speaker 1: my own values of kindness and respect and collaboration, and
Speaker 1: then that's going to inform how I show up in
Speaker 1: the conversation. And this is really powerful. And one of
Speaker 1: the stories that I tell in the book is um
Speaker 1: I'll just summarize it briefly here so he can, you know,
Speaker 1: get into some of the other tools. But this amazing
Speaker 1: story of African American musician named Darryl Davis who, through
Speaker 1: the power of his genuine intention to understand and show
Speaker 1: kindness and respect um in conversations with members of the
Speaker 1: KKK from southern Maryland. You know, forty or fifty members
Speaker 1: of the organization left based on their relationships with him
Speaker 1: through the power of conversation, and the main tool that
Speaker 1: he was using was his his intention, his willingness to
Speaker 1: treat them with kindness and respect and be genuinely curious.
Speaker 1: And through the force of that, through the force of
Speaker 1: who he was and how he related, they started to
Speaker 1: actually respect him and recognize this person, you know, is
Speaker 1: actually showing up in a in a powerful way. Some
Speaker 1: of my ideas might not be what I thought, they were, so,
Speaker 1: what are some tools or practices for coming from curiosity
Speaker 1: and care? Yeah? So, um. One of the most accessible
Speaker 1: that that I like to share with people is is
Speaker 1: actually a short phrase that both reminds us because some
Speaker 1: of this, a lot of this is about just remembering, right,
Speaker 1: It's about just remembering like, oh, like, let me actually
Speaker 1: listen to this person, you know, let me see let
Speaker 1: me try to actually understand where they're coming from. Like,
Speaker 1: once we remember that idea, we can get curious, we
Speaker 1: can start to actually connect. So one of the ways
Speaker 1: of doing that is by using a short phrase like
Speaker 1: let me see if I'm following you, or I want
Speaker 1: to make sure I'm still with you, or let me
Speaker 1: let me see a I've got it where I'd really
Speaker 1: like to understand where you're coming from. So saying something
Speaker 1: like that reminds us of our intention and it also
Speaker 1: signals to the other person that we're trying to understand.
Speaker 1: So that's that's one very accessible way because we don't
Speaker 1: we don't need a whole lot of tools. We all
Speaker 1: know how to get curious. It's it's it's innate, the
Speaker 1: desire to learn as human beings. We just have to
Speaker 1: remember it in a conversation. So that's one, that's one
Speaker 1: way of doing it. Let me share one other, really
Speaker 1: important one which is kind of at the heart of
Speaker 1: this work, one of the core premises and perspectives of
Speaker 1: nonviolent communication, which is the communication technique that's at the
Speaker 1: core of UM. Some of what I teach comes out
Speaker 1: of humanistic psychology, out of the work of Abraham Maslow
Speaker 1: and Karl Rogers, which is this idea that part of
Speaker 1: what makes us human is that we share certain universal
Speaker 1: fundamental needs, and that all of our behavior, your all
Speaker 1: of our words, our actions can be understood as an
Speaker 1: attempt to meet a need, some basic need. So one
Speaker 1: way to get curious is to is to listen. In
Speaker 1: this particular way is to try to listen for what
Speaker 1: matters to this person, what do they actually need, what's
Speaker 1: important to this person. This really allows us to start
Speaker 1: to connect, particularly when we disagree, because we can get
Speaker 1: down to a deeper level where we actually start to
Speaker 1: see what we have in common, which is our shared
Speaker 1: human needs. Right, And I think you know, this idea
Speaker 1: of coming from curiosity is so important because very often,
Speaker 1: particularly in relationships with people we know well, we sort
Speaker 1: of think we know exactly why somebody is saying something, right,
Speaker 1: we sort of we're reading motivation into everything that is
Speaker 1: being said. But if we can become a little bit
Speaker 1: more curious and open that back up instead of assuming
Speaker 1: I know why they're doing this, but to your point,
Speaker 1: to be curious about what they're saying and why and
Speaker 1: and what is it that they need underneath that. I
Speaker 1: think that if we can, if we can suspend that
Speaker 1: judgment a little bit and look at the question and new,
Speaker 1: it can be really helpful. You're pointing to something really
Speaker 1: really key, Eric, I think, which is which is that
Speaker 1: a lot of our conflicts, a lot of our struggles
Speaker 1: interpersonally and suffering relationally in life is due to reacting
Speaker 1: to things that aren't actually there where we're making interpretations,
Speaker 1: jumping to conclusions, as you said, reading motivations into someone
Speaker 1: else without actually checking it out. And so so there's
Speaker 1: a certain quality of humility that's required here too to
Speaker 1: recognize maybe I don't know you know, And the key
Speaker 1: here is okay, So then you've got an idea like, Okay,
Speaker 1: this person's just trying to get their way, Okay, let
Speaker 1: me have an open mind, let me see, and you
Speaker 1: ask into it, and it's like, oh, they are just
Speaker 1: trying to get their way. So then it's about this
Speaker 1: deeper kind of listening to really be curious to see,
Speaker 1: well can I can I relate to that? Have I
Speaker 1: ever tried to just get my way in life? Well? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do that sometimes. You know, Oh I can relate
Speaker 1: to that. Like, there, they must be really concerned about something.
Speaker 1: They must care really deeply about this, This must be
Speaker 1: really important to them. Where we're trying to put ourselves
Speaker 1: in the other person's shoes and see things from their perspective,
Speaker 1: and that doesn't mean that we agree with them or
Speaker 1: their choices. It just means that we see their humanity. Right.
Speaker 1: I think this might be a good time for us
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about needs and strategies, because
Speaker 1: I think that this is a place that we often
Speaker 1: get confused, both in what we're doing but also with
Speaker 1: what someone else is doing. Can you share with me
Speaker 1: the difference or with us the difference between needs and strategies? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a it's a key concept that that's
Speaker 1: necessary to really be able to use these tools. So
Speaker 1: the idea here is that as human beings, everything that
Speaker 1: we do our our choices, our behaviors, you and I
Speaker 1: talking today on this podcast. Everyone who's listening right now.
Speaker 1: These are strategies. These are about what we want, their ideas,
Speaker 1: they're our best guests at what might work for us
Speaker 1: to get something that's more important. Right, So, our strategies
Speaker 1: are what we want, Our needs are why we want
Speaker 1: it at the deeper level, what we think it's going
Speaker 1: to give us, what actually matters to us that we're
Speaker 1: trying to fulfill on some deeper level in life. You know.
Speaker 1: So whether it's well, I'm going to the gym because
Speaker 1: I want to feel good, I want to be healthy,
Speaker 1: that's the gym is the strategy. The health and the
Speaker 1: well being is the need. The implications of this are
Speaker 1: actually quite profound in our lives. So in terms of
Speaker 1: our own choices and behavior, when we are not aware
Speaker 1: of the distinction between our strategies and our needs, we're
Speaker 1: bound to continue repeating the same behavior without knowing why.
Speaker 1: So he's just a quick story. Um. One person came
Speaker 1: to a workshop, heard this idea, was driving home and
Speaker 1: reached for a cigarette and stopped and said, Okay, let's
Speaker 1: see if this stuff is actually true, then my wanting
Speaker 1: to light up a cigarette and have a smoke is
Speaker 1: a strategy to meet some needs. All right, well what
Speaker 1: needs do I have? And they thought about it and realized,
Speaker 1: I want to relax, you know, I want to take
Speaker 1: a break, take my mind off things. And in that
Speaker 1: moment they saw totally clearly, I've got way better ways
Speaker 1: to relax and take my mind off things than destroying
Speaker 1: my health by smoking, and they stopped smoking. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: My girlfriend gives an example of this about you know,
Speaker 1: when she used to eat emotionally and she she thought,
Speaker 1: you know, that what she wanted was a cupcake. She's like,
Speaker 1: I want a cupcake. I want a cupcake. But when
Speaker 1: she realized that what was happening was deeper than that,
Speaker 1: that it was a need for emotional soothing, she suddenly went, oh,
Speaker 1: there's lots of ways to meet this need. When I
Speaker 1: think it's the cupcake, the only thing that will suffice
Speaker 1: is the cupcake. But when I realized what it is
Speaker 1: at a deeper level, there's lots of ways. There's lots
Speaker 1: of strategies to use our terminology here, there's lots of
Speaker 1: strategies that can use to meet that need exactly. And
Speaker 1: so that in our own life that gives us a
Speaker 1: lot more choice and then relationally in terms of our conflicts.
Speaker 1: The understanding here is that our conflicts tend to happen
Speaker 1: at the level of our strategies. I want this and
Speaker 1: you want that, And then if we only stay at
Speaker 1: that level, we don't get anywhere. We just keep butting
Speaker 1: heads because my strategy and your strategy don't match. But
Speaker 1: if we can, if we can shift down a level
Speaker 1: below those positions to the d paper concerns, objectives or
Speaker 1: needs or values like what's this about for you? Why
Speaker 1: do you want this thing so important so so badly,
Speaker 1: And then we can start to actually not only understand
Speaker 1: each other, but it opens up that whole playing field
Speaker 1: to see, well, maybe there are other strategies that we
Speaker 1: can find that might work for both of us exactly.
Speaker 1: So this is yeah, So this is this is where
Speaker 1: the whole field of collaboration and mediation and the possibility
Speaker 1: of a win win comes in m let's head two
Speaker 1: step three, which is to focus on what matters. So
Speaker 1: we get sidetracked and conversations all the time by getting
Speaker 1: caught up in the petty stuff, arguing about things that
Speaker 1: don't really matter. Um focusing on our judgments of one another,
Speaker 1: our beliefs, our interpretations, and we want to learn to
Speaker 1: train our attention to be able to parse out in
Speaker 1: any not only in a situation, but moment to moment
Speaker 1: in a conversation like what's needed right now? And so
Speaker 1: this is the this is the whole training of the
Speaker 1: kind of flow and the dance of communication. At the core,
Speaker 1: it means this this key element we've been talking about,
Speaker 1: which is what are the what are the basic needs?
Speaker 1: What's the objective here? What matters? That's the most important
Speaker 1: aspect of focusing on what matters is identifying that for
Speaker 1: oneself and for someone else. But then there's a whole
Speaker 1: host of other things that matter in a conversation, like
Speaker 1: sometimes someone's got a lot of emotions and they really
Speaker 1: want to be heard. You know, most of the time
Speaker 1: when we speak, it's because we want to be listened to.
Speaker 1: We want to be heard and understood. So in a conversation,
Speaker 1: you know, if you and I are trying to deal
Speaker 1: with something and you're telling me like Uren, you know
Speaker 1: when this happened is really upsetting for me, and I
Speaker 1: can't believe you did that, and you know, like you know, WTF,
Speaker 1: and I respond by giving you my whole story about
Speaker 1: what was going on and why instead of actually just
Speaker 1: hearing you and being like, oh my god, Eric, it
Speaker 1: sounds like that totally didn't work for you. It really
Speaker 1: messed up your whole flow. Yeah, I get that, Like,
Speaker 1: in that moment, what's most important is not my story,
Speaker 1: it's actually giving you the experience of feeling heard. So
Speaker 1: that's just one example of focusing on what matters is
Speaker 1: it's learning to a tune in a conversation to just
Speaker 1: what's needed in each moment, and so what are some
Speaker 1: other examples of that. Other examples are sometimes what's mattered
Speaker 1: is showing up and listening, giving the other person the
Speaker 1: relief of feeling heard. Sometimes what's most important is speaking
Speaker 1: up for ourselves and for our own integrity or in
Speaker 1: order for us to be heard. Sometimes what's what's important
Speaker 1: is clarifying what actually happened, right, being able to make
Speaker 1: a clear observation. So this is one of the the
Speaker 1: four components of the non violent communication model, which which
Speaker 1: maybe we can go through a little bit, which is
Speaker 1: this this method of training our attention to focus on
Speaker 1: areas of our relationships and conversations that make it easier
Speaker 1: to understand one another and and actually work together. So
Speaker 1: instead of our interpretations and judgments about what happened, just
Speaker 1: getting clear about the specific data that we are responding
Speaker 1: to in our environment, being able to make a clear observation.
Speaker 1: So and sometimes in a conflict we have, we have
Speaker 1: different data that we're responding to, And what's important is
Speaker 1: actually clarifying I thought this was supposed to happen. No,
Speaker 1: I understood it was going to be this way, and
Speaker 1: the whole thing is just a misunderstanding about the data.
Speaker 1: So clarifying the observations what actually happened can be what's
Speaker 1: most important in a given moment. We already already touched on.
Speaker 1: The second element of our emotions are feelings. So something happened,
Speaker 1: that's an observation, how do I feel about it? Really
Speaker 1: being able to make space for our experience as a
Speaker 1: human being, for the emotions, and honoring that that's just
Speaker 1: part of how we're built. It's not a problem. It
Speaker 1: doesn't mean anything about us or the other person. It's
Speaker 1: just this way our body and mind sends us information
Speaker 1: and signals about about our our environment, and then most importantly,
Speaker 1: connecting those feelings to why, what matters? What are the needs?
Speaker 1: And this is this is a key friends between this
Speaker 1: particular model and a lot of other models, is that
Speaker 1: our emotions aren't about what other people do or say.
Speaker 1: That's a very disempowered position to say, like I feel
Speaker 1: upset because you did this. You've got all the power if, if,
Speaker 1: if you can make me feel something. Instead, the understanding
Speaker 1: is that our emotions are actually about our own needs,
Speaker 1: what matters to us. And if if you know, we
Speaker 1: just step back and consider it actually makes a lot
Speaker 1: of sense. It's like if we didn't care about something,
Speaker 1: we wouldn't be feeling any emotions about it. We only
Speaker 1: feel emotions about things that matter to us. So our
Speaker 1: emotions are a reflection of our deeper needs. So what's
Speaker 1: actually important and in the last components is about making
Speaker 1: a request, which is where do we go from here,
Speaker 1: Like what's going to be useful right now in this
Speaker 1: moment to move the conversation forward once, So let's break
Speaker 1: that down a little bit more because you've you've kind
Speaker 1: of gone through these four elements of the nonviolent communication model.
Speaker 1: So observations, feelings, needs, and requests and so observations are
Speaker 1: actually what we see happen. That's what we're responding to
Speaker 1: in our environments, you know, the what we see or
Speaker 1: hear around us. And it's easier said than done. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of times we think, we think in terms
Speaker 1: of judgments like that was the best movie ever? Or
Speaker 1: stop being so rude, you're being disrespectful. Those are the
Speaker 1: kinds of perceptions that we tend to live in in
Speaker 1: our own mind and how we tend to speak to
Speaker 1: one another. And if we start to examine it, we see, okay, well,
Speaker 1: what's actually what's what's more true? Is it more true
Speaker 1: to say you're being rude or to say that you
Speaker 1: spoke to me in a way that I didn't enjoy,
Speaker 1: that didn't meet my need for respect. So clearly owning,
Speaker 1: owning the experience and relating it to my own values
Speaker 1: and standards is actually more authentic and more true. And
Speaker 1: the value of this is that there's nothing to argue with.
Speaker 1: If I come to you and I say, like, you know,
Speaker 1: what you did the other day was so rude and disrespectful,
Speaker 1: we're already in an argument. You're on the defensive, I'm
Speaker 1: judging you. You've got to stand up for yourself. Whereas
Speaker 1: if I come to you and I say to someone,
Speaker 1: I say, you know, the way that went down the
Speaker 1: other day, it really didn't work for me. I felt,
Speaker 1: I felt confused, I felt shocked, and to be honest,
Speaker 1: a little bit upset because it didn't meet my needs
Speaker 1: for respect and just how I liked how I like
Speaker 1: to live my life. In terms of knowing we're on
Speaker 1: the same page, there's nothing to argue with there. In
Speaker 1: terms of I'm expressing my experience to you, and then
Speaker 1: I might follow that up with at the end very important,
Speaker 1: I want to make a request. I want to let
Speaker 1: the other person know why am I saying this to you?
Speaker 1: What do I want from you right now? And so
Speaker 1: that request might be like, you know, could you tell
Speaker 1: me what was going on for you when that happened?
Speaker 1: I really I would like to understand more, or if
Speaker 1: I'm wanting to be understood, I might ask for the
Speaker 1: other person to to just listen and try to offer
Speaker 1: some understanding. You know, could you understand why why I
Speaker 1: might react that way? Where I'm coming from here. So
Speaker 1: in what you're describing, I'm stating sort of what I felt,
Speaker 1: kind of what my need was and what my request
Speaker 1: was mh yeah. And the thing that's tricky about this
Speaker 1: is that, and this is one of the most common
Speaker 1: pitfalls of nonviolent communication is that it's both a strength
Speaker 1: and a weakness. So the strength is that we've got
Speaker 1: this really clear, simple form a structure. It's like, okay, observation, feeling, need, request,
Speaker 1: what happened? How do I feel about it? Why? What? Where?
Speaker 1: What would I like to have happened next? That's like
Speaker 1: super helpful to be able to break things down. Now.
Speaker 1: The danger there is that we start to speak in
Speaker 1: ways that are formulaic and robotic, and and then other
Speaker 1: people are like, dude, will you just say what's going
Speaker 1: on for you instead of trying to be so you know,
Speaker 1: convoluted about it. So one of the things I like
Speaker 1: to say is that nonvolent communication is a skeleton. It's
Speaker 1: a structure. It's not a script. It's not that we're
Speaker 1: it's not that it's saying always speak in this way,
Speaker 1: but it's saying, try to get clear on these particular
Speaker 1: aspects of your experience internally, so that we can shift
Speaker 1: from a certain kind of consciousness, a certain way of
Speaker 1: seeing that's that's habitual and conditioned, where we're blaming other
Speaker 1: people when our needs aren't met. That is a counterproductive,
Speaker 1: suicidal strategy. If I want, if I want somebody to
Speaker 1: do something differently, how many people respond to blame and
Speaker 1: judgment and criticism by saying, oh, thank you for educating
Speaker 1: and enlightening me. I would be delighted to change my
Speaker 1: behavior for you. It doesn't happen that way. It's much
Speaker 1: more likely that someone's going to be responsive to us
Speaker 1: if instead of blaming them, we just say, yo, this
Speaker 1: didn't really work for me, here's why. So that's the shift.
Speaker 1: It's very simple when I put it that way. But
Speaker 1: this pattern of blaming people when our needs aren't met,
Speaker 1: when they do something we don't like, is goes very deep.
Speaker 1: So this is why we talk about non violent communication
Speaker 1: as an awareness practice. It's actually about shifting our our consciousness,
Speaker 1: our perspective, and we use those steps, those tools to
Speaker 1: to really own what's going on for us inside, so
Speaker 1: we're clear about how we're feeling, what matters to us.
Speaker 1: And then the request, instead of being a demand you
Speaker 1: must do this, the request is an open door. It's
Speaker 1: an invitation to explore something together and say, here's one idea,
Speaker 1: what do you think about this with the observation piece
Speaker 1: that we are talking about, I think the understanding that
Speaker 1: that I have here is to describe something that's observable,
Speaker 1: not a judgment, as clear and specific and neutral, non
Speaker 1: judgmental as possible. It's like, just the data. We want
Speaker 1: to give someone a reference point, basically, a context for
Speaker 1: the conversation. And so then here's this observation. And again
Speaker 1: I'm trying to make a formula out of this, but
Speaker 1: but I'm well, I'm not. I'm trying to actually just
Speaker 1: do a very quick education on a on a more
Speaker 1: complex topic. But here's the observation or here's the data,
Speaker 1: and then and then, um, I felt this as a
Speaker 1: result of that, or to be to be more specific,
Speaker 1: I felt this in relation that there's this observation in
Speaker 1: my need together create this feeling. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And
Speaker 1: so the feeling part is interesting because it really depends
Speaker 1: on the context whether or not that's going to be
Speaker 1: useful to share, right, because again it's it's it's really
Speaker 1: important to keep in mind the whole, the whole point
Speaker 1: of these tools, which is to build understanding. We want
Speaker 1: to be able to hear hear one another, and so
Speaker 1: you know, if it's a work situation, depending on the
Speaker 1: culture of your workplace, feelings and emotions might not be
Speaker 1: welcome to discuss. But we can still talk about what matters.
Speaker 1: We can still talk about our objectives, our goals, um,
Speaker 1: what how we like to work together, those sorts of things.
Speaker 1: So whether or not we include the feelings really depends
Speaker 1: on the context that the key is, Look, here's what's happened.
Speaker 1: Maybe here's how I feel about it, and then here's
Speaker 1: why that's the most important piece. Here's what here's what's
Speaker 1: important to me. Here's why this worked or why this
Speaker 1: didn't work. We we we we want to communicate to
Speaker 1: the other person something that helps them to understand where
Speaker 1: we're coming from in a way that makes sense to them,
Speaker 1: that says this is It's not about you know, blaming them,
Speaker 1: it's about saying, look, you know, we all this is
Speaker 1: probably something that we all value. So if it's a workplace,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, um, I really like to have
Speaker 1: all the information before I start a project so that
Speaker 1: I can use my time as efficiently as possible. Who's
Speaker 1: going to argue with that, right, It's like, so you know,
Speaker 1: when you so when you emailed me two days into
Speaker 1: the project and said, oh, by the way, it also
Speaker 1: needs to do this, you know, I was kind of
Speaker 1: a little frustrating for me, and and then we might
Speaker 1: come to the request and then that's about being clear. Okay,
Speaker 1: what's our goal in having this conversation. Are we trying
Speaker 1: to understand and take apart what happened? Are we trying
Speaker 1: to make an agreement for how to do it differently
Speaker 1: next time? Or are we just wanting some sense of like,
Speaker 1: you know, I just want you to understand the impact
Speaker 1: this had on me. That would be really meaningful if
Speaker 1: you could hear that. And each of those is going
Speaker 1: to be a slightly different conversation. So being clear going
Speaker 1: into the conversation about Look, what's my ultimate aim here?
Speaker 1: What's my objective? Am I wanting to do things differently
Speaker 1: in the future? Am I wanting understanding? Am I wanting
Speaker 1: information from them? Is it all of the above? And
Speaker 1: then if so, can I take those one step at
Speaker 1: a time? Totally makes sense. Well, we have run out
Speaker 1: of time here and you and I are going to
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more in the post show conversation
Speaker 1: about the four habitual ways of responding to conflict and listeners.
Speaker 1: If you're interested in that, you can get access to
Speaker 1: the post show conversations by going to one you Feed
Speaker 1: dot net slash support and becoming a member or in
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking the time to come on.
Speaker 1: The book is really good, really helpful, and I feel
Speaker 1: like we really just scratch the surface here, so I
Speaker 1: hope listeners will investigate more. Yeah, thanks so much. Eric,
Speaker 1: It's it's been great to be on the show. And
Speaker 1: you know, just kind of like parting words to everyone
Speaker 1: who's listening. Um, this stuff will change your life and
Speaker 1: it doesn't take a lot, you know, one small shift
Speaker 1: in your communication patterns, because we rely on it so much,
Speaker 1: we'll have an effect in every area and every relationship
Speaker 1: on your life. So, whether or not you follow up
Speaker 1: and check out the book, take one thing that you've
Speaker 1: heard on the podcast today that makes sense to you
Speaker 1: and use it put it into practice. That is great advice.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, my pleasure. Okay, take care bite. If
Speaker 1: what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider
Speaker 1: making a donation to the One You Feed podcast. Head
Speaker 1: over to one you Feed dot net slash support. The
Speaker 1: One you Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our
Speaker 1: sponsors for supporting the show,